1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,840
Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.

2
00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:09,880
Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff Mom Never told you?

3
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:18,000
Speaker 1: From housetop Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

4
00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,240
Speaker 1: I'm Caroline and I'm Kristin Uh. In the wake of

5
00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:27,560
Speaker 1: the Batman shooting at the Aurora, Colorado Theater last month, UM,

6
00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:32,080
Speaker 1: a lot of discussion has come up about heroism and

7
00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,280
Speaker 1: who is a hero, what makes you a hero, what

8
00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:39,640
Speaker 1: makes you a coward? Um? A lot of really personal,

9
00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,199
Speaker 1: touching stories came out of this national tragedy. Yeah, and

10
00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:45,320
Speaker 1: a lot of times in the podcast, we don't focus

11
00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:50,640
Speaker 1: on very specific and timely events like this, but someone

12
00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:52,480
Speaker 1: had brought this up on our Facebook page, and there's

13
00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:57,240
Speaker 1: a lot of conversation, like you mentioned, Caroline, happening online

14
00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,920
Speaker 1: about three men who were killed in the Aurora shooting. UM.

15
00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:07,560
Speaker 1: John Blank who was six, Alex Teva's who's twenty four,

16
00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,640
Speaker 1: and Matt McQuinn who was seven. And all three of

17
00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:16,360
Speaker 1: these guys have something in common aside from being very young, Um,

18
00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:22,640
Speaker 1: they all essentially sacrificed their lives to save their girlfriends

19
00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:24,920
Speaker 1: who were at the theaters with them, right, And it

20
00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,400
Speaker 1: raised a lot of debate about um, they're real men.

21
00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:30,520
Speaker 1: Well what is a real man? Are you only a

22
00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,400
Speaker 1: real man if you sacrifice your life in such a situation?

23
00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,160
Speaker 1: Does it take a tragic situation like this to make

24
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:41,600
Speaker 1: someone a hero? Um? Why didn't other people do the

25
00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,720
Speaker 1: same things that these men did? And we will touch

26
00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,720
Speaker 1: on the debate, but I think we should just say

27
00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,080
Speaker 1: a little bit about these men. Um. John Blank was

28
00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,280
Speaker 1: a security guard at Target. He'd served eight years in

29
00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,440
Speaker 1: the Navy and was in the process of re enlifting

30
00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,920
Speaker 1: in the hopes of becoming a Navy steal Uh. Not

31
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,520
Speaker 1: only did he leave behind the girlfriend, aunts, and young

32
00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,520
Speaker 1: who he saved, but he also left behind an ex

33
00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:07,880
Speaker 1: wife and two children. When his girlfriend actually was trying

34
00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,320
Speaker 1: to pull him off the floor. This this is detail

35
00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,959
Speaker 1: that she revealed in the interviews. Um, she actually tried

36
00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,080
Speaker 1: to convince herself that he was wet because he'd been

37
00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,160
Speaker 1: hit by a water balloon. Um. And she said that,

38
00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:21,880
Speaker 1: I think John just took a bullet for me. He

39
00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,600
Speaker 1: provided me the opportunity to survive. Yeah. And then, UM,

40
00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,000
Speaker 1: we have Alex the year old. He had earned a

41
00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,720
Speaker 1: master's degree in counseling psychology and he dove on top

42
00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:37,320
Speaker 1: of his girlfriend, Amanda Lyndgren when the shooting started. Yeah.

43
00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,600
Speaker 1: And then there's Matt McQuinn who's an Ohio native, and

44
00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,040
Speaker 1: he was sitting with girlfriend Samantha Yowler, who uh, he

45
00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,680
Speaker 1: saved her. She actually was shot in the leg um,

46
00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:48,720
Speaker 1: and I believe they were with her brother also in

47
00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,200
Speaker 1: the theater, who was not shot. And I think that

48
00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,400
Speaker 1: we should before we go any further, we should say

49
00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,960
Speaker 1: that any conversation UM that we have from here on

50
00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,600
Speaker 1: out about the conversation said it's raised about heroism and

51
00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:07,639
Speaker 1: masculinity UM, is not ever meant to detract it all

52
00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,919
Speaker 1: from what these guys did, which in all three cases

53
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:15,240
Speaker 1: that is incredibly brave. I mean, considering the circumstances, I

54
00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,840
Speaker 1: have no idea what I would have done, um, and

55
00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,960
Speaker 1: it is very laudable. So it's a situation the conversation

56
00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:28,040
Speaker 1: is connected to them, but not in a way judging

57
00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:31,280
Speaker 1: at all what they did exactly, because you can't really

58
00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:36,000
Speaker 1: negatively judge them saving someone else's life precisely. One person

59
00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,960
Speaker 1: whose column in Slate has attracted quite a bit of

60
00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,200
Speaker 1: criticism is author Hannah Rosen, who wrote the article The

61
00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,760
Speaker 1: End of Men for the Atlantic. We've talked about her before.

62
00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:50,480
Speaker 1: Rosen pointed out that basically, you know, Aurora has been

63
00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,320
Speaker 1: portrayed during this tragedy as kind of an all American

64
00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:58,200
Speaker 1: town that lost its innocence, and she's pointing out that, um,

65
00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,040
Speaker 1: maybe that's not quite the case because in the wake

66
00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,800
Speaker 1: of all these recessions, a lot of towns, Aurora included, UM,

67
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,640
Speaker 1: have seen employment decrease. People have really been struggling. And

68
00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,240
Speaker 1: she says that many men in Aurora and nationally aren't

69
00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,680
Speaker 1: working as steadily. And she points out that as a

70
00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,200
Speaker 1: security guard at Target UH, John Blunt couldn't have been

71
00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,160
Speaker 1: making enough to support a family. Meanwhile, his girlfriend had

72
00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,760
Speaker 1: just earned her veterinarian degree. So she's using them as

73
00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,720
Speaker 1: kind of an example of how, you know, things are

74
00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:34,200
Speaker 1: changing in the professional world, right UM. She sort of

75
00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,839
Speaker 1: sees it as a microcosm of UM the changing gender

76
00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,159
Speaker 1: roles that have in a lot of ways been induced

77
00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:47,599
Speaker 1: by the recession. UM. But at the same time, while UM,

78
00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,719
Speaker 1: Rosen talks about how the scales have tipped in terms

79
00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,039
Speaker 1: of a lot of women, especially from lower and middle

80
00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,839
Speaker 1: income backgrounds, are now being um more educated than men

81
00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:04,039
Speaker 1: and also are out earning men but at the same time,

82
00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:10,240
Speaker 1: even in those situations, women still and we're speaking very

83
00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:14,600
Speaker 1: heteronormatively right now. You know, in these um male female

84
00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:20,160
Speaker 1: relationships where women still want to see men as protectors,

85
00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,600
Speaker 1: and men still need to be seen as protectors, even

86
00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,680
Speaker 1: if they might not be the breadwinners as have been

87
00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:33,039
Speaker 1: the traditional role, there's still that issue of protection, right

88
00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,440
Speaker 1: And in her research for the End of Men, her project,

89
00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,400
Speaker 1: she found that there was an effort across middle class

90
00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,400
Speaker 1: American towns to redefine the roles of men, because, like

91
00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,680
Speaker 1: we said, things are changing a lot. She said that

92
00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,320
Speaker 1: in many areas they're they're no longer the breadwinners, like

93
00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,039
Speaker 1: Kristen said, nor they always study fathers quote, because couples

94
00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,039
Speaker 1: don't get married all that much anymore. And so she

95
00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,800
Speaker 1: found an enduring need for men to think of themselves

96
00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:02,080
Speaker 1: and women to think of them as the protectors. And

97
00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,320
Speaker 1: she also goes on to say that this is not

98
00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,640
Speaker 1: just a thing about chivalry. And we did a podcast

99
00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,960
Speaker 1: a long long time ago now UM on gender and

100
00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,080
Speaker 1: chivalry and whether or not this idea of chivalry should die.

101
00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:19,920
Speaker 1: And she concludes that this goes way beyond and I agree,

102
00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,760
Speaker 1: this goes way beyond chivalry, the the acts of bravery

103
00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,800
Speaker 1: and heroism that happened at Um that Aurora movie theater,

104
00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,000
Speaker 1: because she defines chivalry as a code of conduct connected

105
00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:38,799
Speaker 1: to social propriety. That is not what throwing your body

106
00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:43,080
Speaker 1: in front of someone to take a bullet for them is. Yeah,

107
00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,359
Speaker 1: she calls it an instinct that's basic and deeper. So

108
00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:48,960
Speaker 1: I think she got a little bit of criticism for

109
00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,160
Speaker 1: pointing out these these personal details about these men, and

110
00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,640
Speaker 1: people felt that she was criticizing, you know, men who

111
00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,960
Speaker 1: were losing their position in society. But she, you know,

112
00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,000
Speaker 1: is not trying to say that. I think she was

113
00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:06,520
Speaker 1: talking more about how, even as our society evolves, changes,

114
00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,760
Speaker 1: you know, recessions affect different towns and cities differently, we

115
00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,960
Speaker 1: still have a common thread of, especially in a tragedy,

116
00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:20,040
Speaker 1: wanting things to be comfortingly familiar and normal according to

117
00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,360
Speaker 1: the scripts that we are familiar with well, and it's

118
00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:29,000
Speaker 1: also reflective of this internal caricature and caricature character trait

119
00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:34,240
Speaker 1: that has still been preserved through all of this of Um,

120
00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:39,360
Speaker 1: of that bravery and that extinct instinctual desire to protect.

121
00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:44,960
Speaker 1: But Jessica Wakeman over at the Frisky would caution with

122
00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:49,680
Speaker 1: all of this discussion of these men's heroism to not

123
00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:55,080
Speaker 1: make it a gendered conversation, to not say, like, oh,

124
00:07:55,120 --> 00:08:00,960
Speaker 1: what an incredible masculine act of bravery, this one is right.

125
00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:05,080
Speaker 1: She asked what masculinity has to do with heroic behavior,

126
00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,200
Speaker 1: and she says the implication and a lot of these

127
00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:11,120
Speaker 1: discussions surrounding the Aurora shooting um is that heroism is

128
00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,160
Speaker 1: a gendered concept. She says that you know, the Night

129
00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,000
Speaker 1: and Shining Armor narrative is a feel good story, and

130
00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,320
Speaker 1: like I just touched on one that's familiar and comforting

131
00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,880
Speaker 1: in the wake of a national tragedy when we feel

132
00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,880
Speaker 1: like we we see a story that's familiar. I mean,

133
00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:30,480
Speaker 1: the men's these these individual sacrifice was incredible and so

134
00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,200
Speaker 1: we see that, and of course we want to report it.

135
00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:33,920
Speaker 1: We want to report the good that comes out of

136
00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,040
Speaker 1: a terrible situation like this. But it's part of it.

137
00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:42,280
Speaker 1: It fits into um ideas about our culture that we

138
00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,800
Speaker 1: already have, right, and it also offers us some hope

139
00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,920
Speaker 1: that there is some good out there, that there is

140
00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,440
Speaker 1: that basic instinct to do good. Even though on the

141
00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,800
Speaker 1: flip side of these stories of heroism there have there

142
00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,680
Speaker 1: have also been at least one story that's come out

143
00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,920
Speaker 1: of Aurora about one and who left the theater, left

144
00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,760
Speaker 1: his girlfriend and his kid to the theater to supposedly

145
00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,040
Speaker 1: go get help, but it's now turning out that he

146
00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,960
Speaker 1: was fleeing because he was terrified, and that, I mean,

147
00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,240
Speaker 1: let's be honest. It's also understandable and well, I mean,

148
00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,040
Speaker 1: he that man is being called all sorts of names

149
00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,439
Speaker 1: all over the internet. You know, people are really criticizing

150
00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,360
Speaker 1: him for not acting like these three men that we

151
00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:29,439
Speaker 1: talked about earlier. Um. But as Wakeman says, basically, like

152
00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,320
Speaker 1: who are we to judge? She was also criticized for

153
00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,800
Speaker 1: saying that people were like, well, you know, where is

154
00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,079
Speaker 1: your moral base? Obviously this guy as a coward because

155
00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,920
Speaker 1: he didn't stick around and protect his loved ones like

156
00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,360
Speaker 1: these other three men did. But again, like Kristen said,

157
00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,600
Speaker 1: who knows what we would do in that situation? Um,

158
00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,360
Speaker 1: and I think that is also worth mentioning a very

159
00:09:54,400 --> 00:10:00,240
Speaker 1: inflammatory tweet from a Wall Street Journal columnust saying, well,

160
00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,480
Speaker 1: I hope those women were worth it. And it's just

161
00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I only mentioned that because it's it is

162
00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,280
Speaker 1: kind of fascinating to see how people are interpreting this

163
00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,640
Speaker 1: how they're we're so protective of these heroes, but also

164
00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,160
Speaker 1: you know, ready to to tear down someone who was

165
00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,280
Speaker 1: so terrified that he left as well. But you know

166
00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,760
Speaker 1: that's it's not an up for debate of saying, you know,

167
00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,600
Speaker 1: like who's a better person or not? Right. I did

168
00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,880
Speaker 1: think that tweet was pretty ridiculous, and I mean, I

169
00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,560
Speaker 1: think I'm not in the minority there to say that.

170
00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,400
Speaker 1: He got a lot of flak online for that and

171
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,959
Speaker 1: ended up calling his tweet challenging, like he was just

172
00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,120
Speaker 1: trying to provoke some some debate and thought right, and

173
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,680
Speaker 1: I I mean that could start a whole other topic

174
00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:52,040
Speaker 1: about how if someone acts in a heroic manner, does

175
00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:57,320
Speaker 1: it matter if the recipient of that deserved it, you know,

176
00:10:58,200 --> 00:10:59,960
Speaker 1: because then you have to talk about get into the

177
00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:06,920
Speaker 1: whole philosophical debate of who deserves uh life? And my friend,

178
00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,280
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get into that. I'm not touching

179
00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,320
Speaker 1: that with a ten football um. But going back to

180
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,720
Speaker 1: this idea of women and children first, which certainly ties

181
00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:24,160
Speaker 1: into the gendered concept of heroism as this masculine thing.

182
00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,840
Speaker 1: There was a study that was published as July in

183
00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,920
Speaker 1: the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences UM and

184
00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:38,400
Speaker 1: to Swedish economists found that women and children first, not

185
00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,320
Speaker 1: so much, at least in the case of shipwrecks. Yeah.

186
00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,079
Speaker 1: They looked at survival data for some of history's worship

187
00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,320
Speaker 1: wrecks dating back to the eighteen fifties and he he

188
00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,560
Speaker 1: they the two of them. The pair found that women

189
00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,000
Speaker 1: and children were only half as likely as crew members

190
00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:58,240
Speaker 1: and captains to survive maritime disasters. They say that there's

191
00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,280
Speaker 1: little evidence that men were in climbed to surrender their

192
00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,880
Speaker 1: survival advantage, and so they point out some survival rates

193
00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:12,240
Speaker 1: here for the crew captain's forty four male passengers, women

194
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:17,040
Speaker 1: twenty seven and children just fifteen, Which I mean, of course,

195
00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,160
Speaker 1: if you are on a ship, and you have worked

196
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,040
Speaker 1: on a ship, and you have experience with ship related

197
00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,600
Speaker 1: things and know where the poop deck is and such, yeah,

198
00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,800
Speaker 1: you probably have a much better chance of survival than

199
00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,000
Speaker 1: if um, you are completely unfamiliar with it. Not to

200
00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:35,960
Speaker 1: say women never work on ships, but you know what

201
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:40,080
Speaker 1: I mean. Although the two exceptions that the Swedish economists

202
00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,480
Speaker 1: found were the Titanic, where the women's survival rate, including

203
00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:48,080
Speaker 1: Kate Winslet was three times higher. Why couldn't she let

204
00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,199
Speaker 1: him on the door? I know, why couldn't she get

205
00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,640
Speaker 1: him on? There was enough door for Leo. That's all

206
00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,880
Speaker 1: we're gonna say. Um. But on the Titantic, the women's

207
00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,840
Speaker 1: survival rate was three times higher than men's um but

208
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:05,600
Speaker 1: that was also because the captain was insistent about getting

209
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,160
Speaker 1: the women and children off. And on the Birkenhead, which

210
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,720
Speaker 1: sank off the South African coast in eighteen fifty two

211
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,480
Speaker 1: and actually gave rise to this concept of women and

212
00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,960
Speaker 1: children first. And there are a lot of arguments in

213
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,880
Speaker 1: the article we read in the l A Times about

214
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,040
Speaker 1: this study, there are a lot of arguments about whose

215
00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,800
Speaker 1: life is worth more and why? And there are there

216
00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,240
Speaker 1: are all these arguments why women are more valuable, why

217
00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,200
Speaker 1: men are more valuable, why children should get off first,

218
00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:41,440
Speaker 1: why the elderly should survive a shipwreck. And so yeah,

219
00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,320
Speaker 1: we're not going there either. Well and and again, like

220
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,480
Speaker 1: we're not pointing out this study as we're not trying

221
00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,760
Speaker 1: to debunk the fact that, yes, men often step up

222
00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:56,520
Speaker 1: to the plate and male heroes certainly exists. It's not that,

223
00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,680
Speaker 1: but it's more. Again, I find all of these the

224
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,920
Speaker 1: fact that we automatically go to debates about who deserves

225
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:10,520
Speaker 1: what is very interesting just about human nature in general. Um.

226
00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,040
Speaker 1: One thing that that I think is interesting to point

227
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,360
Speaker 1: out is the whole trope of men are the more

228
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,520
Speaker 1: expendable gender in the media, in movies and literature. This

229
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,400
Speaker 1: is from the very entertaining website TV trips dot org.

230
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,600
Speaker 1: They point out that in media, female characters have automatic

231
00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,239
Speaker 1: audience sympathy because women are seen as moral, innocent, beautiful,

232
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,840
Speaker 1: et cetera, whereas male characters have to earn audience sympathy

233
00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:38,280
Speaker 1: by acting appropriately manly and heroic, which often involves saving

234
00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,160
Speaker 1: the damsel in distress. Although I take issue with this

235
00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:43,840
Speaker 1: because I think there are plenty of male characters who

236
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:48,760
Speaker 1: aren't all like beefy meatheads, weightlifting masculine guys who are

237
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,160
Speaker 1: plenty sympathetic. But the trope does exist, and you know,

238
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,720
Speaker 1: and we can also say, hey, well, maybe um, women

239
00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:01,440
Speaker 1: need to be saved because we propagate species. Maybe that's

240
00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,600
Speaker 1: where it comes from or something like that. But yeah,

241
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,240
Speaker 1: it does the trope of the hero saving the damsel

242
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,520
Speaker 1: in distress. If anything, it just gets tired. Yeah. Well,

243
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,680
Speaker 1: and so they do say that, you know, once a

244
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,920
Speaker 1: man or a male character has earned the audience sympathy,

245
00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,040
Speaker 1: he loses it if he can't take care of himself

246
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,080
Speaker 1: or others. So maybe this is some stereotype that we

247
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,800
Speaker 1: all have that we perpetuate even in the wake of tragedy.

248
00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,600
Speaker 1: But here is the thing that we must also acknowledge

249
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:36,720
Speaker 1: as well, and everybody knows this. I hope women can

250
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:41,480
Speaker 1: be heroes too. And there are two people we would

251
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,320
Speaker 1: like to call out as well from um the Aurora incident.

252
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,359
Speaker 1: These are best friends Ali Young who's nineteen, and Stephanie

253
00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:54,440
Speaker 1: Davies Um, who essentially like got through the shooting together.

254
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,080
Speaker 1: After the gunman throw canisters, Ali stood up and was

255
00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:02,880
Speaker 1: immediately shot and she punctured a vein in her neck.

256
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,280
Speaker 1: But when she fell, twenty one year old Stephanie pulled

257
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,640
Speaker 1: her away and applied pressure to the wound, and even

258
00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:13,280
Speaker 1: though injured, Ali said, save yourself, just get out of here.

259
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:18,040
Speaker 1: Instead Stephanie stayed. She called and then helped carry her

260
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,800
Speaker 1: best friend across two parking lots to an ambulance and

261
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,920
Speaker 1: helped save her life. And Ali is going to be fine. Yeah,

262
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,320
Speaker 1: And I thought it was really amazing that in his

263
00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:34,680
Speaker 1: UM post Aurora address, President Obama called these two women

264
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:40,520
Speaker 1: out for for their bravery. Right. I mean, it's interesting, this,

265
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,080
Speaker 1: this whole situation is so tragic, but we end up,

266
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,720
Speaker 1: like I said, end up having these stories of incredible

267
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,960
Speaker 1: human behavior where we're willing to really stick it out

268
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:50,760
Speaker 1: for each other and do things that we might not

269
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,320
Speaker 1: do normally or we wouldn't think that we are capable

270
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,720
Speaker 1: of doing. Yeah, I mean, it's that that fight or

271
00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,320
Speaker 1: flight instinct, and you know, it's it's almost our animal

272
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,440
Speaker 1: nature that comes out at that moment and determines what

273
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,920
Speaker 1: we will do stay or will we go well. So,

274
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,360
Speaker 1: you know, we talked about how women can be heroes too.

275
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:15,399
Speaker 1: But the Carnegie Hero Fund Commission UM has a list

276
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,920
Speaker 1: they on June they awarded medals to twenty three people

277
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,480
Speaker 1: who risked or gave their lives for others. Just three

278
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,840
Speaker 1: out of those we're women, and we're not We're not

279
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:29,480
Speaker 1: trying to say that the men who received the awards

280
00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,040
Speaker 1: were not deserving of them. It's just interesting to point

281
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,480
Speaker 1: out and it raises the question of why are more

282
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:37,719
Speaker 1: women not on the list like these. Are they not

283
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,520
Speaker 1: taking risks? Are they not putting themselves in harm's way

284
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,800
Speaker 1: for someone else because, um, the previous awards from this commission,

285
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 1: given in March, recognized twenty one individuals, only five of

286
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:53,320
Speaker 1: whom were women. Yeah. Overwhelmingly the Carnegie Hero Medal goes

287
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,040
Speaker 1: to or the Carnegie Medal, I think it's just the

288
00:17:55,040 --> 00:18:00,480
Speaker 1: Carnegie Medal, um go to men, you know. And I

289
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,520
Speaker 1: was looking at the acts of bravery that the women

290
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,280
Speaker 1: were awarded for, and I mean it is amazing stuff

291
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:12,840
Speaker 1: like women literally pulling elderly people from floodwaters and um,

292
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,840
Speaker 1: there's actually uh the episode of Radio Lab I think

293
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,280
Speaker 1: the title is good, and they interview some of these

294
00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,720
Speaker 1: Carnegie Metal recipients about why they did what they did.

295
00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:28,639
Speaker 1: Like one woman, um, saved this other woman whose car

296
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,840
Speaker 1: broke down on a train track while the train was

297
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:33,760
Speaker 1: coming and it was not able to stop soon enough

298
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,720
Speaker 1: the woman would have died. I mean, it's it's amazing,

299
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:41,639
Speaker 1: but yes, overwhelmingly it is men who are jumping to

300
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,280
Speaker 1: the rescue. And perhaps that might have to do with

301
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,720
Speaker 1: a little bit of biological differences in risk taking behavior. Yeah,

302
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,440
Speaker 1: I thought this was fascinating. We I feel like we've

303
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:54,840
Speaker 1: touched on this before a little bit in various episodes

304
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,400
Speaker 1: about you know, men and women reacting to things differently.

305
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,560
Speaker 1: Men have that whole fight or flight response, whereas women

306
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,840
Speaker 1: are just gonna bond over it. Um And in a

307
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,040
Speaker 1: February article from this year published in Current Directions and

308
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,240
Speaker 1: Psychological Science, they found that when men are under stressed,

309
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,960
Speaker 1: they become even more willing to take risks, while women

310
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,760
Speaker 1: are the opposite, they become less willing. And they say

311
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,119
Speaker 1: that this ties into the whole fight or flight or

312
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:24,360
Speaker 1: bonding responses to stress divided by gender. So the men

313
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,119
Speaker 1: tend towards the fight or flight response while the women

314
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,320
Speaker 1: might go tend and befriend, so they're the ones kind

315
00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,920
Speaker 1: of waiting and the wings once the after the tragedy

316
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:38,359
Speaker 1: and studs it helps mend everything back together. For an

317
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:44,520
Speaker 1: incredibly gendered construct explanation of this um and it also

318
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:49,280
Speaker 1: seems uh this idea of being faced with death also

319
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,000
Speaker 1: seems to provoke risk taking activity. UM. There was a

320
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,119
Speaker 1: two thousand to study from researchers at the University of

321
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,000
Speaker 1: Colorado and bar A Lawn University in Israel. Men find

322
00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,400
Speaker 1: risk taking activities more appealing when primed with thoughts of

323
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,879
Speaker 1: their own death. And if you think about battle fields

324
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 1: and you know the purple hearts that are given out

325
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,440
Speaker 1: for acts of bravery out there. I mean, your mortality

326
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,840
Speaker 1: is right in front of your eyes, and that might

327
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:20,959
Speaker 1: provoke UM more rescue. Yeah, I mean, it is interesting

328
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,959
Speaker 1: that the researchers said that people may be motivated by

329
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,359
Speaker 1: potential subjective gains when engaging in risk. In other words,

330
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 1: risk taking behavior may offer men immediate relief from existential

331
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,720
Speaker 1: anxieties and may serve as a buffer against the terror

332
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,320
Speaker 1: of death, of course, all the while actually exposing themselves

333
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,520
Speaker 1: to the possibility of real danger. So you know, they

334
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:47,879
Speaker 1: the researchers were saying, people obviously have this ingrained interest

335
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,560
Speaker 1: in keeping themselves alive and out of harm's way. But

336
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,200
Speaker 1: there is sort of a gender division as far as

337
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,920
Speaker 1: you know, men rushing in when faced with the idea

338
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,920
Speaker 1: of death, or the thought of death, or the fear

339
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,560
Speaker 1: of death, they're going to put themselves in harm's way,

340
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 1: whereas women maybe just might not be as likely. But

341
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,800
Speaker 1: I also wonder if we can step back a little

342
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,119
Speaker 1: bit from you know, splitting it down a gendered line

343
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 1: to a more individual difference in how that existential anxiety

344
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 1: UM is handled. Whereas, like some people I know in

345
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 1: christis situations or after personal tragedies that have happened. I've

346
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 1: known people who need to do something hands on, They

347
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 1: must be involved. The only way that they feel that

348
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 1: they get any kind of relief is is getting involved

349
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:44,640
Speaker 1: directly with the situation. And then people who must retreat completely.

350
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:50,120
Speaker 1: So I wonder if, um if maybe that's that has

351
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,920
Speaker 1: more to do with it than whether you're a guy

352
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:59,400
Speaker 1: or a gal. This has definitely sparked interesting debates and

353
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 1: some pretty heated debates as well. Uh, not only these

354
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,479
Speaker 1: three men who sacrifice their lives, but the whole shooting

355
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 1: in general. Um. And I think yet, men and women

356
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,360
Speaker 1: can both be heroes. I don't think it's just limited

357
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 1: to men. It could be very personal, like you said,

358
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,400
Speaker 1: as to whether one person is going to Russian and

359
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,200
Speaker 1: and save someone as opposed to someone else who doesn't. Yeah,

360
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 1: and this is not also an argument of saying like

361
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 1: we need more female heroes, because that's tantamount to saying

362
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 1: we need more horrible circumstances so that women can step

363
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,159
Speaker 1: up to be heroes. Um, that's kind of like the

364
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 1: the catch twenty two of heroism is that it is

365
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 1: preceded by something awful, So it's just a tricky subject

366
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 1: in general to talk about, which is why why don't

367
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:52,199
Speaker 1: we leave this conversation now up to our listeners? Um,

368
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 1: what would you do in these kinds of situations? Do

369
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:59,360
Speaker 1: you are are? Does heroism have a gender? I mean

370
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 1: we often and to link it to men and masculinity,

371
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 1: but is that completely misguided? So let us know your

372
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: thoughts on this very complex issue. Mom. Stuff at Discovery

373
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 1: dot com is where you can send your letters, and

374
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 1: we have a couple of letters to share today on

375
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:26,959
Speaker 1: our episode about book banning. Now. This's first one comes

376
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:32,640
Speaker 1: from James, and he is a bibliophile and a literature teacher.

377
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: He writes, to keep this letter short, I'll simply say

378
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,159
Speaker 1: that I always encourage parents and others to allow literature

379
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 1: that is contrary to your own personal beliefs. Make you

380
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: reflect inward and challenge your own views to make sure

381
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 1: they're accurate and proper. This is especially needed for teenage

382
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 1: students who are trying to figure out who they are,

383
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: what the world really is, and where their place is

384
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: in that world. Combine the struggle for meaning with the

385
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: sexual angst that every per so I must deal with

386
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 1: during that phase of life, and literature can become a

387
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: powerful tool for self actualization. Even though I'm a strong conservative,

388
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 1: I feel that many books that are banned are useful because,

389
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 1: more than anything else, it gets students to read. In

390
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 1: a world where information is cheap and easy to access,

391
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: the love of literature is in decline, and many times

392
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 1: the controversial book will get someone's nose back in between

393
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: the pages to see just what all the fuss is about.

394
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 1: Trying to find the balance between what is appropriate and

395
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: what is useful is very hard. But if we take

396
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 1: away the opportunity altogether, then what are we denying the

397
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 1: students in our nation? So thanks James. This one's from Annie.

398
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 1: She's a high school English teacher down in North Carolina,

399
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: and she says, during the first semester, when I was

400
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 1: teaching sophomore English, I decided we would read a couple

401
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 1: of short stories from uwam Ak Ponds Stay He're one

402
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: of them, a book I had read before it ended

403
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: up on Oprah's Book book Club list, just to keep

404
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 1: my credit and check. The first story we read was

405
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 1: a Christmas Feast, and it's all about this poor family

406
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: living in a flum The mother and father are incredibly

407
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: unsympathetic and the oldest sisters a prostitute. The second story

408
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: we read, My parents Bedroom, takes place during the Rwandan

409
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: genified and has extremely graphic violence. It wasn't until we

410
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 1: had started reading A Christmas Feast that I thought, should

411
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 1: we be reading a story about prostitution? Am I going

412
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 1: to get in trouble? Every day I felt like I

413
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: was getting away with something, but no one ever complained,

414
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 1: not administration and no parents. The best part was that

415
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: it was a huge hit with the kids. Working with

416
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: tenth graders with the reading skills averaging to the fifth

417
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 1: grade level, I wasn't sure they'd really get it, but

418
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: they got it, and they made all sorts of connections

419
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 1: to their own worlds, which sadly aren't as dissimilar as

420
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: we wish they'd be. When we got to the climax

421
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: of my parents Bedroom, where this incredible act of violence

422
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 1: takes place, they were riveted. So maybe it takes a

423
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 1: little sex and violence to get kids, particularly kids who

424
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 1: don't like to read, to read, and you can bet

425
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 1: I'm whipping out say you're one of them to read

426
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: with my seniors next year. Thanks San, and thanks to

427
00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: everyone who has written into us. Moms Stuff at Discovery

428
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 1: dot com is where you can send your letters, and

429
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 1: you can also leave us a comment, and like us

430
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast,

431
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: and you can always see what we're up to during

432
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 1: the week at our website, It's how Stuff works dot com.

433
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.

434
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 1: It's ready, Are you