WEBVTT - Trump Indictment May Be Imminent 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.960 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:13.920 Over the years, Donald Trump has faced criminal investigations, special 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:18.760 counsel inquiries, even impeachments, but none has stuck. That may 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:22.480 be changing, as a flurry of witnesses, including Trump's former 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:26.600 fixer Michael Cohen, have testified before a Manhattan grand jury 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:31.200 considering criminal charges against the former president. This isn't a 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:34.520 question of vindication. It's not a question, as I stated before, 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:39.680 about revenge. This is my position is that at the 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:42.240 end of the day, Donald Trump needs to be held 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.479 accountable for his dirty deeds if in fact that's the 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:49.280 way that the facts play out. That plus an invitation 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:52.640 to Trump to testify before the grand jury, indicate that 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:56.640 Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg is close to an indictment. 0:00:57.080 --> 0:01:00.240 The first criminal charge is against a former president in 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:04.560 our nation's history. Trump's reaction to it all has been predictable. 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:06.920 These are which huntsees have been going on for a 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:10.640 long time. They've weaponized justice in our country. It's a disgrace, 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:12.840 and I think people are very angry about it. Joining 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:16.399 me is former federal prosecutor Jennifer Rogers, a professor at 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:20.800 NYU Law School. The prevailing view of most legal experts, 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:24.720 including Trump's own attorney, is that he will be indicted 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:28.360 in Manhattan. Do you agree, Yeah, that seems to be 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:32.800 what's happening. I mean, the practice of the Manhattan BA 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:37.559 is to invite descendants to participate in the grand jury 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.560 at the end of an investigation, before they seek an indictment. 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:44.000 And so they've been putting all the witnesses that they 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.080 would need, you know, Michael Cohen and others into the 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:50.400 grand jury, and they've invited Trump to participate, which he 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:54.200 declined wisely, and so it does look like they're wrapping 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:56.400 up with the grand jury. I mean, you know, you 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.040 do an investigation, you talk to all these witnesses, there's 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:01.880 no reason to actually put them in unless you're going 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:04.520 to speak in indictment. And so it seems very much 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:08.079 like that's where it's headed. His attorney's met with prosecutors 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:11.800 recently to make their case against an indictment in a 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:15.040 case like this. I mean, is there really any hope 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:19.880 that they could change prosecutors' minds? No, No, not much. 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:23.720 You know, it rarely happens in any kind of case, 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:28.560 but in this kind of case. It's a fairly simple case. Factually, there, 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:32.200 of course, is a tricky legal issue. I don't know 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:34.919 if it's tricky as much as it's just not been 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:38.000 done before, So it's a bit unknown whether the felony 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.040 will hold up on heel if they get the convictions. 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:44.359 But where everything is already known to the prosecutors, it's 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.720 really just almost a formality. But you know, defense lawyers 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:50.000 always want that chance to come in and make the pitch, 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:53.040 and prosecutors are willing to give them that chance. So 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:55.320 they did it and it didn't work, And all that's 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:58.639 very predictable tell us about the legal theory they're going 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.560 to try to use to the misdemeanor of falsifying business 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:07.040 records into a felony. So in New York State, the 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:12.400 falsification of financial records that prosecutors alleged was done here 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:15.360 where they took this money that was paid to Stormy 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:19.120 Daniels to keep her quiet before the election, and instead 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.160 of just writing her a check from the Trump organization 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.440 or Trump writing her a personal check, they instead had 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:28.160 Michael Cohen pay her and then they paid him back 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:31.280 from the business, pretending that it was for legal expenses. 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:35.040 So that's the falsification of records that the Trump organization 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.120 kind of hid all of these payments. That's a misdemeanor 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:40.520 in New York State. So in order for it to 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.040 be a felony, that crime has to be committed in 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:47.880 conjunction with another crime, so in order to facilitate or 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.400 to cover up a different crime. So what they are 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:56.080 alleging here, we think is that this cover up was done, 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:59.320 the falsification of records was all done in order to 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:04.040 commit a campaign finance crime, meaning that this payment actually 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:08.160 was done to benefit the campaign because had she come 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:10.640 out and told her story in the week leading up 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:13.360 to the election, he wouldn't have been elected. So it's 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:16.479 a benefit to the campaign. The campaign hid that benefit. 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.719 They didn't disclose it as part of the paperwork that 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:22.960 they have to file with election officials. And so that's 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.080 what they say is the second crime that the falsification 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:29.240 crime facilitated, and that makes it a felony under New 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:33.200 York day law. The Manhattan DA didn't bring charges against 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:36.679 Trump in the criminal tax fraud case where they brought 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:41.240 charges against his former CFO, Alan Weisselberg. Now they appear 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:45.159 to be going after him with this untested legal theory, 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:47.400 and it seems kind of odd to me that they 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:51.239 would proceed with a novel theory in the first case 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:54.640 ever against a former president. Yeah, it's hard to know 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.640 how they assess their case and exactly what they're thinking. 0:04:57.720 --> 0:04:59.839 Of course, they know more about the case than we 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:03.440 all know sitting outside here, but you know, I think 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:07.200 that they're probably trying to assess it in terms of 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:10.880 is this case something that we would charge someone else with? 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:14.280 You know, yes, it's untested, but do we think it's right? 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:17.400 Do we think that it will stand up on appeal legally? 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.839 The issues with it being a former president make it 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:24.360 really tricky in terms of what is a jury going 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:26.600 to do once they're speeded. You know, when you have 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:28.760 twelve people in the box, are we going to get 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:32.080 twelve people who are going to be able to assess 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:35.800 this fairly? But the untested portion of it is a 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.479 legal issue on that front, it's more about is it 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:41.560 going to stand up in front of the judges who 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.120 will be affessing it. Can we get it through the 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:47.560 trial court level? On appeal? Will the appellate court judges 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:51.200 say that it meets legal muster? So I think they're 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:53.919 probably just saying, listen, do we think this is a 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:56.800 correct theory, and can we convince the judges of this. 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:59.920 It's not really a jury issue. And then on the 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:02.560 jury side, you just say, listen, if we think he 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.320 has done this and we think that we would charge 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:08.000 someone else with it, we should take a shot at it, 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.000 former president or no, you know, he's not above the law. 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.320 We should have that accountability. And then on the other 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:18.719 case that's apparently still kicking around. It's definitely true that 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:23.160 earlier last year, Alvin Bragg, the brand new DA at 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.000 that time, decided not to go into the grand jury 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:30.320 with the case about inflating and decreasing the assets in 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:34.400 order to get benefits. But they say that investigation is ongoing, 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:36.320 and a lot of it had to do with whether 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:39.400 they were able to get the true and complete cooperation 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:42.400 of Alan Weisselberg, which by all accounts they have not. 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:45.000 So that kind of I think has more to do 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:47.960 with that side of things. And listen, they may ultimately 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:50.279 bring that case if they think that they can. Apparently 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:53.479 they're still working, honestly, that's what the DA's office to say. 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:57.239 So Trump has called this a politically motivated witch hunt, 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:00.840 said he did absolutely nothing wrong and denied having an 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:04.719 affair with the porn star Stormy Daniels, and said Bragg's 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:07.839 inquiry was an effort to take down the leading Republican 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:12.160 candidate in the twenty twenty four presidential election. I'm wondering 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:16.320 if the fact that the former DA didn't charge Trump 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.560 and Bragg, you know, as you just mentioned, may still 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:21.920 but didn't charge him in that another case, can that 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:24.400 be used by the defense in any way to say 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:27.840 this is politically motivated. They kept on trying and trying 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:30.440 and trying until they got him. Well, listen, this is 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:33.480 of course Trump's playbook, right, Anything that anybody does that 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:36.800 accuses him of anything is a politically motivated witch hunt. 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.280 So this is kind of how he responds to everything. 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.640 There's no evidence that anyone has gone after him for 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:46.520 political reasons. When the DA, just prior to Alvin Bragg, 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:51.040 cy Van was investigating, you know, they needed to do 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.880 this investigation. You can't decide on charters until you know 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.720 what you're dealing with. And they didn't finish. They didn't 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:00.720 finish the investigation that they were focused on. They appear 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:02.600 to put this one kind of on the back burner, 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:06.640 probably because of the untested nature of the legal theory 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:09.720 as far as the felony charge goes, and they focused 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:12.400 on the other thing. Bragg thought they hadn't gotten there yet, 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:14.640 so he switched gears. I mean, there's just nothing to 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.680 suggest that it's political at all. This is just kind 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:20.480 of Trump's play. And once you get to court, you know, 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:22.800 he makes all of these statements in the public realm 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:25.720 because you know, that's just how he works, and he's 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:29.640 trying to influence ultimately with the public thinks, because they're 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.600 the voters and also of course potentially the jury pool. 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:34.680 But when you get into court it's a little bit different. 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:36.480 You know, you can't just stand up and yell, which 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:38.680 hunts all the time. If you're going to claim something 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:44.000 like prosecutorial misconduct or that you are actually being targeted 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.320 because of political reasons, you have to prove that in 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:49.280 order to make that case in court, or the judge 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:51.400 will say you can't make that argument. So once you 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.440 get into the four corners of the courtroom, he won't 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.240 be able to just without any basis at all, which 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.920 there is none, claim that, so you know it'll be 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:02.319 a little different once you're actually in front of the 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:05.800 jury and the judge in this case. In the meantime, 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:08.839 of course, he's just trying to kind of poison, if 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:10.880 you will, the well a little bit with the public 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:13.240 in terms of saying that which you always said. Some 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:17.160 of the defense attorneys has said that this payment wasn't 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:20.160 part of a campaign, It was to save face, to 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:25.559 save Milania from any embarrassment, sort of a nuisance payment. 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:28.640 Is that a defense for him in this case? So 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:31.880 it's kind of interesting when people were talking about a 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:36.439 pure campaign finance violation, like on the federal side what 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:39.839 Michael Cohen pleaded guilty too. It would I mean, if 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:43.600 you could convince the jury that the reason that you 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:46.800 didn't report this as a campaign benefit is that that's 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:49.200 not what it was to you, right, it was instead 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:51.680 trying to cover it up for your wife or what 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:54.520 have you, then yes, it would be a defense to that. 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:56.360 I mean, I don't know if you remember way back 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.960 that John Edwards case that was brought against Senator John 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:04.080 and Edwards he was acquitted and the jury hunts on 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:07.160 accounts of his case because he made that argument and 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:10.199 apparently it was successful that the money that he paid 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:14.000 to this woman he hid for personal embarrassment reasons and 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.600 so on, not because of his campaign. The problem for 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:20.079 Trump is that that only helped him on the piece 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:22.800 of it that makes it a felony, right, So, I mean, 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:26.679 he falsified the records of his organization in order to 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:30.880 make this payment. By admitting now that he has made 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:33.640 those payments, which he is doing basically by saying, oh, 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:35.600 I did it for this reason, not for that reason, 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:39.040 he's effectively admitting that he's guilty of the primary charge, 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:42.120 which is the misdemeanor. So it's just now about the 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:44.920 piece that makes the felony. And the question is do 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:47.800 you believe that? I mean, is it really believable that 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:50.400 in the run up to the election he does all 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:53.720 of this just to keep it from his wife in public? 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:58.080 I mean, a man who's been credibly accused of sexual 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.640 assault and even rape by multiple people and he's so 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:05.520 concerned about this one person. You know, it doesn't necessarily 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:08.720 ring true, I think, although ultimately a jury will decide that, 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:11.760 but it doesn't help him on the primary charge that 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:14.920 the DA appears to be proceeding on. Anyway, Does the 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:19.199 case hinge on the testimony of Michael Cohen, Trump's former 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.640 fixer an attorney, and if so, what are the problems 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.920 with his having pleaded guilty to the hush Bunny and 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.880 lying to Congress and going to prison over it. So 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:33.520 on the first question, if it hinges on him, I 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:37.160 don't know exactly how much it hinges on him. I mean, 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:39.280 certainly they put him into the grand jury, and they 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:42.040 talk to him many many times, so it seems that 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:44.920 at least they are strongly considering using him, or think 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.280 that they might need him. I just don't know what 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:49.880 else they have on the key piece of how much 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:53.160 former President Trump actually knew about this. They obviously have 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:56.560 the records, They have other people, I think who will 0:11:56.600 --> 0:12:00.240 talk about that. So it's unclear to me whether he's 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:03.560 really really necessary and they couldn't proceed without him, or 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:05.720 whether they think he just adds enough to make it 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:09.400 worth it. You know, Listen, he's a difficult witness to 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:13.080 put on because he has lied before and has been 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:16.199 to prison. As you say, he's a convicted spellon. But 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:20.360 prosecutors deal with this issue all the time, honestly. I mean, 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.800 one of the things you sometimes stay instammation is Listen, 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:25.600 I wish I could put on the witness stand, you know, 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.439 rabbis and priests and ministers for you all. But those 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:30.800 aren't the sort of people who get caught up in crime, right. 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:33.120 I need to put on the stand people who can 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:36.000 tell you about what happened here, people who this criminal 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:38.800 sitting at the defense table associated with. So it's not 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.240 uncommon for prosecutors to have to deal with a witness 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:44.080 who has lied, who has admitted lying. If you lie 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.760 for the defendant previously to cover up what the defendant 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:49.840 has done and what you yourself has done, and then 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:51.760 you come clean and then you're going in there and 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:55.120 talking to them under oath, that's something that prosecutors can 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:57.760 explain and do explain all the time. And that's what 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:01.400 happened here. So you know, I think that they definitely 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.800 have a shot at putting on Michael Cohen's testimony and 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:07.200 getting a jury to believe it. And you do that 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.520 by explaining what it is and also by corroborating it. 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.160 You know how much corroboration is there. Michael Cohen says 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:16.280 he was paid you know, periodically in this amount, and 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:18.560 guess what you have the checks that support that, you know, 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:21.320 and you kind of corroborate it by the physical evidence 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.200 and the testimony of other witnesses, and you put it 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:26.520 all together and say do you believe him? Yeah? You should. 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:28.600 You're telling you the truth, and here's how you know that. So, 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:31.200 you know, looks like they're going to use him. I 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:33.520 assume that means that they think that they need him, 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:37.719 and we'll see how it goes. What do you think 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.320 of the fact that they call Stormy Daniels in to 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:44.280 talk to them the prosecutors did, but not to testify 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:48.040 before the grand jury. Yeah, it's it's interesting. I mean, 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:51.000 I'm not surprised that they want to speak to everyone 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:55.520 who might potentially be a witness or has some information. 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:58.160 If they don't put her in the grand jury, it 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.920 suggests she's not strictly next story. In New York State, 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:04.800 it's different from the federal system. In the federal system, 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:06.839 you can go into the grand jury with just one 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:08.959 witness that can be your case agent, and they can 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:11.880 testify about everything that they've learned about the case, including 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:14.120 from other people and so on. In New York State, 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.760 you can't put in hearsay. So if they thought that 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.320 they needed something from her, that she's the only person 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:21.520 who could provide they would have to put her into 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.360 the grand jury really in order to get their indictment, 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:26.960 So it suggests they don't really need her need her. 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:29.760 Maybe they're just trying to assess whether they want to 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.560 use her as an added benefit. You know, I'm not 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.080 sure exactly why they were talking to her now, except 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:40.000 that it again kind of highlights that they're really at 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:42.160 the end of this thing. You know, they really are 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:44.960 wrapping everything up and you know, wanting to talk to 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:48.120 everyone and put their case fully together before they seek 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:52.640 the indictment. So we'll see, it makes it kind of sensational, right, 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.680 And the question is do you want to try to 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:59.040 do this in this streamline a case is possible like 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.280 the way that you would with any other case, I mean, 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:04.160 bringing Stormy Daniels in to testify, because of course you 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:07.840 won't have any personal knowledge about how the payments were 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:11.440 done and how Michael Cohen was reimbursed and what Trump 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.320 knew about those reimbursements and stuff. She's only brought in 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.480 to say, you know, yes, we had sex, and so 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:20.320 is that worth it in terms of making this even 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:23.640 more sensational than it already is? So they might be 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:26.920 mulling over that question. So if they do indict him, 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:29.200 I mean, I'm sure there won't be a perp walk 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:34.240 or handcuffs, But otherwise, will he be treated like an 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:36.920 average defendant? I mean, can he be treated like an 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:40.160 average defendant when he has Secret Service with him all 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.800 the time. Yeah, I think he'll be treated like a 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:48.400 very very important person, like an uber rich defendant, that 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:50.520 sort of thing. They certainly will make an agreement with 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.360 him to surrender at a certain time. He will not 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:57.720 be arrested at six am with handcuffs, perp walks everything. 0:15:57.760 --> 0:15:59.920 As you say, He'll get to show up at a 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.000 time that's agreed with his lawyers. He'll have to be processed. 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:05.360 I mean, he'll have to go through the same steps 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:07.720 and go before the judge and do everything like any 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.200 other defendant in a sense. But they'll work that out 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:12.920 with his lawyers, and they'll work with his Secret Service 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:15.520 detail and all of that to make sure. You can 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:19.560 kind of look to how FBI conducted the search warrant 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:22.920 at Marologa, right, I mean, they went and searched his home, 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.080 and you have to give the lawyers and you have 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:27.320 to give the Secret Service detail a heads up and 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:29.640 that sort of thing when things like that are happening, 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.680 and that's what'll happen here. They're professionals, they'll be able 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:35.440 to work it out, and so of course they'll be 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:38.720 a Donald Trump mug shot. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.320 I mean obviously that mug shot will be on the 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:45.120 front pages of every publication and so on whenever gets released. 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:47.000 But yeah, I mean, all of that, of course happens 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:50.120 behind closed doors, the processing and stuff, So it'd be 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:52.400 great to see a camera in there, but that's not 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.040 how it works. Going to be quite a case, thanks 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:59.160 so much, Jennifer. That's former federal prosecutor Jennifer Rogers, a 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:04.520 professor at YU Law School. The legal dominoes are being 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:07.480 lined up and the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank and 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:11.240 Signature Bank. On the federal side, the Justice Department and 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:15.679 the Securities and Exchange Commission are looking into possible misconduct 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:20.280 by SVB officers, according to Bloomberg sources. On the civil side, 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:24.880 investors have filed their first class action lawsuits against both banks, 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:29.400 joining me as attorney Jim Baar, president of CMBG Advisors. 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:34.520 The Justice Department and the sec are investigating the collapse 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:37.639 of Silicon Valley Bank. What kind of things do you 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:42.639 think they're investigating? And is it unusual? So it's non 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:47.359 unusual when you have a large collapse like this because 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:50.520 obviously a lot of people are going to be yelling 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.840 and screaming, think you know what happened? How did this happen? 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:55.359 And they want to get to the bottom of it. 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:57.639 So I don't think it's unusual from that perspective. The 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:00.640 real question is what is it they're looking for here 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:04.440 and what are the legal risks that are out there 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.040 for the board of directors and you know, the other 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:09.919 people working at Silicon Valley Bank. And the answer is 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:14.080 that there's two aspects of this bank failure. There is 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:16.280 the fact that there was a run on their deposits, 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.199 where you have to have a certain amount of deposits 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.440 obviously in order to have you meet your counter requirements. 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:25.159 And the run on the bank obviously was a problem. 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:29.040 But that begs the question, which is was there a 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:32.640 reason a concern that all of a sudden had been 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:36.840 underappreciated that came out. Because if there's an unappreciated risk, 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:41.040 there's the depositor who are at risk, but there's also 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:43.520 the investors who are at risk because people are buying 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:46.679 the stock in the stock market, they're trading in the 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:50.720 securities on the basis that they think it's a good investment. 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.760 So when the stock has gone down as dramatically as 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:57.120 it did and there was this risk, which is all 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:02.640 these deposits could disappear, the question is was their mismanagement, 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:06.280 was their fraud, was their negligence in the way that 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:09.199 it was described in their financial statements, And that's what 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:14.520 the SEC's focusing on. Apparently they're also examining stock sales 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:19.360 that svb's officers may have made days before the bank failed. 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:22.560 That is correct, So there's two issues there as well. 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:26.920 So again, officers that own stock in a bank are 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:30.120 able to sell, but one of the concerns is they 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:34.480 have access to inside information and if they trade on 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:39.040 that information, they're in an advantage. That the regular investment 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:41.879 does not have access to that information, they're at a disadvantage. 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.680 So the question is when the officers sell stock, did 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:50.240 they do so appropriately or did they trade because they 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:52.560 knew something bad was going to happen that other people 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:55.480 did not, which is considered unfair. So we should point 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:59.439 out that very recently they continued to tighten up the 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:04.439 rules under which officers can sell. There are restrictions in 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:08.719 terms of time periods, there are waiting periods. There are 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:12.800 things designed to level the playing field so that officers 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:16.840 are not able to take advantage of insight information and 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:19.240 sell when no one else knows what's really going on. 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:24.120 And in this instance, because those news rules were in effect, 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:28.679 my understanding is that the officers did sell consistent with 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:32.720 those new rules. But it still begs the question were 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:37.560 they aware that there were more risks with the bank 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:41.480 that have been otherwise properly disclosed in their financial statements? 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:44.679 And if there were, then they have exposure. From that perspective, 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:50.359 the SEC and the DOJ investigating after an incident like 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:53.560 this or a few incidents like this, that's not unusual, 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.320 is it. I mean, it doesn't indicate that anything really 0:20:56.640 --> 0:21:00.000 was done wrong. No, I think again, I've said this before. 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:03.440 I don't like this mass hysteri where people jump to conclusions. 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:05.800 We really do try to have a system that says 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:09.360 innocent until proven guilty. And so the answer is that, yes, 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:13.000 something this large is going to trigger an investigation, but 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:17.959 that doesn't mean that there was nefarious activities like m RON. Also, 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:21.080 we've had the first securities class action, the first of 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:26.120 many I suspect, and this goes to what the officers did, 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:30.280 so explain what the security class action is about. So 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:36.240 when you have a stock decline in a precipitous manner, 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:41.120 there's a whole industry of what we call plaintiff's attorneys 0:21:41.880 --> 0:21:45.600 securities lawyers that follow the stock market, and when the 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:50.200 stock declines quickly, they often file what's called a class 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:55.919 action lawsuit alleging that there was something materially misleading in 0:21:56.000 --> 0:22:00.960 the financial statements, either there was an omission or a misstatement. 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:05.440 Now there's an old expression, bad facts make bad law, 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:09.080 and also looking at something with twenty twenty hindsight. But 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:13.200 what these lawyers have figured out is where there's smoke, 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:17.760 there is often fire. So when a stock declines precipitously, 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:22.120