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Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,

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Speaker 1: and today we're talking about the Soul of Wealth with

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Speaker 1: doctor Daniel Crosby.

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Speaker 2: That's right, Doctor Daniel Crosby is making a rare second

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Speaker 2: appearance here on the podcast, because when you write multiple

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Speaker 2: fantastic books on investing in personal finance, we're gonna want

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Speaker 2: to have you back on again. And actually so on

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Speaker 2: the note of books, last time we talked with Daniel

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Speaker 2: about how to understand the many different psychological, the different

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Speaker 2: sociological factors that impact how it is that we invest

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Speaker 2: all in an attempt to be more successful investors. But

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Speaker 2: this time like we're taking an even wider view. We're

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Speaker 2: discussing his new book, The Soul of Wealth, which is

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Speaker 2: all about finding balance between financial wealth and then that

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Speaker 2: true soulful wealth, So not just about getting better at investing,

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Speaker 2: but just honestly, like better at life. And we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk about how important of a role relationships our

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Speaker 2: health or how we spend our time, how big of

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Speaker 2: a role that those play in our pursuit of happiness.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Daniel Crosby is a psychologist. He's the chief behavioral

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Speaker 2: officer at Orion Advisor Solutions and we are excited for

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Speaker 2: him to join us today. Daniel, thanks for making the

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Speaker 2: time to speak with us. Man.

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Speaker 3: Hey, guys, thanks for having me back.

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Speaker 1: We're excited to chat with you again. Daniel. And the

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Speaker 1: first question we ask everybody who comes on the show,

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Speaker 1: you know because you've been on the show before, is like,

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Speaker 1: what do you like to splurge on? What's your craft

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Speaker 1: beer equivalent? Matt and I like to spend what some

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Speaker 1: people would say is an ungodly amount on craft beer,

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Speaker 1: but it's okay because we're still saving, investing for the future.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, what's that splurge for you?

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Speaker 3: Okay, let's hope my wife doesn't listen to the show

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Speaker 3: because it's baseball cards. And I know that's really dorky

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Speaker 3: and juvenile, but it is baseball cards. In during COVID,

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Speaker 3: I think, like everyone else, I went down the rabbit

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Speaker 3: hole of nostalgia and got super into baseball cards, and

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Speaker 3: I honestly treat them like an alternative asset class like

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Speaker 3: I tried and diversify, got a whole punch list of

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Speaker 3: things I want to own, and it has been such

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Speaker 3: a fun hobby for me to pick up. Just since

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: Man, I remember trying to get my hands on that

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Speaker 2: Dale Murphy Rookie card when I was like, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: eight years old or something like that.

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Speaker 1: That was the That was the hot card. Kik Graffy

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Speaker 1: Junior was my hero growing up, even though he wasn't

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Speaker 1: in Atlanta brave like still he had the sweetest swing

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Speaker 1: of all time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, beautiful swing. That Griffy card for I mean, I'm

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Speaker 3: older than you guys, but that for people of a

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Speaker 3: certain age, that those the upper deck Griffy Rookie was

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Speaker 3: the card. And that Dale Murphy upper Deck Rookie Rookie card. No,

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Speaker 3: not the rookie card. He has an error card that's

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Speaker 3: super sought after that's an upper deck card as well.

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Speaker 3: So that's very much on my list.

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Speaker 1: So if you know what you're doing in this, like

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Speaker 1: for real, can you make money? Because my brother in

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Speaker 1: law I never really believed him, but he's into basketball

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Speaker 1: cards and he's telling me he's flu in him on

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Speaker 1: eBay and stuff like that. If you're good at this,

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Speaker 1: can you really make money swapping buy and selling baseball cards?

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Speaker 3: So I have a friend who made a million dollars

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Speaker 3: last year flipping baseball cards.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, what kind of what kind of friend is this?

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Speaker 2: Can you teach me? Is this like a normal dude

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Speaker 2: or like, what's what's the story here?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a it's a very normal dude who lost

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Speaker 3: his corporate job during the pandemic got into it at

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Speaker 3: the same time. There was this huge bubble during the pandemic.

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Speaker 2: The Dune money phase of No, but this was.

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Speaker 3: This was last year where the bubble at burst somewhat,

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Speaker 3: and he's still making good money flipping cards. So I

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Speaker 3: have another buddy who treats it much more seriously. And

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Speaker 3: I mean, he just has a lot more money than me,

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Speaker 3: but he he takes it very seriously. And yeah, you can.

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Speaker 3: You can definitely make money doing this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way to justify what it

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Speaker 2: is that you're doing, because you're like, I don't have

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Speaker 2: a problem. He's got a problem.

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Speaker 1: And then you get into Pokemon cards and you can't

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Speaker 1: explain that to your wife.

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Speaker 2: You know, when you're making a million bucks, I guess

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Speaker 2: you've got a decent argument for it. Yeah, you have

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Speaker 2: a better understanding of what those cards are worth. Here's

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Speaker 2: a segue. Not everyone has a good understanding of personal finances,

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Speaker 2: money or I'm thinking about money and wealth, Daniel, because

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of folks use those terms interchangeably.

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Speaker 2: A lot of folks think that money and I'm talking

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Speaker 2: more like the Alah, Gordon, Gecko and Wall Street kind

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Speaker 2: of money. How Like the pursuit of that is more

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Speaker 2: of a solace endeavor. So kind of give us a

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Speaker 2: quick little introduction here to your book. How would you

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Speaker 2: respond to someone who says that pursuing financial wealth isn't

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Speaker 2: worth the time?

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Speaker 3: So, you know, I think there's a I'm a big

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Speaker 3: Victor Frankel fan. He has a quote that was sort

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Speaker 3: of the catalyst for the whole book, and the quote goes,

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Speaker 3: you know, ever more people have the means to live,

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Speaker 3: but no meaning to live for. And I think that's

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Speaker 3: really where we find ourselves as a society. I mean,

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Speaker 3: we've never been richer as a globe, and yet when

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Speaker 3: you look around, I'm gen X, you know, gen X millennials,

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Speaker 3: gen z on down fifty one percent or greater of

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Speaker 3: these different age cohorts say they're lonely and disconnected. So

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Speaker 3: we live at this time where abundance has never been

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Speaker 3: more widespread, but there's just a great deal of sort

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Speaker 3: of psychological, spiritual and happiness poverty, And so that was

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Speaker 3: sort of the problem I was trying to solve with this,

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Speaker 3: because I don't think the pursuit of wealth has to

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Speaker 3: be soulless, and I think there are a lot of

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Speaker 3: ways that money can give some richness to life more holistically,

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Speaker 3: but we haven't figured it out yet, and that's something

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Speaker 3: I think we need to work on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think when you look at an

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Speaker 1: amalgamation of happiness studies, they all say sort of different things,

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Speaker 1: and so you kind of have to draw inferences from

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Speaker 1: kind of all the different studies to figure out, well,

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Speaker 1: how does more money impact people's happiness. Earlier in the book,

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Speaker 1: early on, you say, quote, we commit so much effort

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Speaker 1: trying to get to a financial number for retirement. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we often overlook other elements of life that bring joy.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's like something Matt and I have

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Speaker 1: found at least at times, especially earlier on in the

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Speaker 1: Fire movement, that wealth is all about the number, and

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Speaker 1: because of that, people are missing out on life in

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Speaker 1: the meantime trying to hit that retirement number. But if

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Speaker 1: wealth isn't about the numbers, what is it about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. You know, one model that I talk about in

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Speaker 3: the book that I think is a pretty good proxy

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Speaker 3: for this answer is Martin Seligman's work in positive psychology.

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Speaker 3: He has a model called Perma, and each of those

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Speaker 3: five letters stands for some element of human flourishing. The

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Speaker 3: P in perma is for positive emotion, and that's kind

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Speaker 3: of like just having fun, right, That's like eating an

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Speaker 3: ice cream cone, buying a beach house, going for a walk,

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Speaker 3: you know, going to a movie. And money does a

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Speaker 3: really great job of helping us have fun. So that's

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Speaker 3: one place that money helps, and that's where we sort

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Speaker 3: of over index and overfocus as a society. But if

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Speaker 3: you look at the other four facets of a life

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Speaker 3: well lived, You've got engagement, which is deep work or

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Speaker 3: like a sort of an all engrossing hobby. You've got

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Speaker 3: the R is for relationships, which are the most you know,

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Speaker 3: the most reliable predictor of human flourishing. You've got M,

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Speaker 3: which is meaning working for some higher purpose, a broader

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Speaker 3: you know, something, something bigger than yourself or bigger than money.

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Speaker 3: And advancement, which is all about maximizing your human potential

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Speaker 3: being being better tomorrow than you were today. So you know, again,

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Speaker 3: when we're preparing for retirement, if we're involved in the

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Speaker 3: fire movement, the focus tends to be almost exclusively on

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Speaker 3: getting that number so we can get that first p

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Speaker 3: in perma. But a lot of times those other four

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Speaker 3: facets are pretty roundly ignored. And and look, there's there's

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Speaker 3: things that money can do there, right, I mean, in

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Speaker 3: some ways if you think about something like relationships, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: money can help you take a trip with your kids,

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Speaker 3: but it can't buy you your kids love you know,

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Speaker 3: So there's there's some sort of half truths around money

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Speaker 3: when it comes to these different dimensions. But we really

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Speaker 3: tend to overfocus on that fun and leisure perspective and

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Speaker 3: leave more reliable paths to happiness on the table, right.

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Speaker 1: I guess too, if you really don't love your job,

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Speaker 1: if you have enough money, you can go do work

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Speaker 1: that you enjoy more, that pays you less. Like that's

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Speaker 1: another So it can certainly influence those things. But sometimes

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Speaker 1: I think you're probably right that that hyper focus on

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Speaker 1: that first part leads to a lot of unhappiness in

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Speaker 1: those other areas.

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Speaker 3: It's true, but I find that so often people don't

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Speaker 3: do it because if you know, it's like if they're

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Speaker 3: if they're hyper focused, they just keep moving the goalpost.

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Speaker 3: You know. There's there's another thing too, you know. Gandhi

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Speaker 3: has this quote that's basically paraphrasing, you know, to the

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Speaker 3: poor person, bread is God, because if you don't have

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Speaker 3: enough money to sort of provide for the necessities of life,

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Speaker 3: you're not sitting around contemplating you know, the meaning of

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Speaker 3: life or God or purpose or anything else. But so, yeah,

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Speaker 3: money can free us up to think about loftier things.

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Speaker 3: But a lot of times we achieve that level of

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Speaker 3: comfort and we just keep going for more and more

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Speaker 3: and more. We lack the creativity to go after something

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Speaker 3: a little more enduring and a little more lasting.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so it seems like finances are kind of most

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Speaker 2: positively correlated to that positive emotion one than very next

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Speaker 2: chapter in your book, you talk about the power of giving.

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Speaker 2: So how is it that the exact opposite of acquiring wealth,

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Speaker 2: in hoarding cash, is actually a crucial part of a

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Speaker 2: well rounded life. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: This I loved writing this chapter because one of the

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Speaker 3: things that I was looking for in the book is

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Speaker 3: places where lots of cultures and lots of traditions agreed

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Speaker 3: upon a concept like it feels like you're onto something

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Speaker 3: there And basically every culture in the world has some

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Speaker 3: sort of saying or some sort of aphorism around the

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Speaker 3: idea that like, hey, if you give it away, more

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Speaker 3: comes back to you. And that is of course not

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Speaker 3: strictly true in the mathematical sense. But when you look

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Speaker 3: at when you look at people's perceptions of wealth, health,

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Speaker 3: like their wellness. You know, are you financially well? There's

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Speaker 3: two predictors of that. One is, of course, like the

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Speaker 3: money you have in the bank, which that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Your actual level of wealth is a number one predictor

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Speaker 3: of that, but one a slightly behind it is the

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Speaker 3: level at which you are generous. And from the lowest

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Speaker 3: income stratum to the highest, the more people give away,

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Speaker 3: whether they're rich, poor, or somewhere in between, the richer

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Speaker 3: they feel and the happier they are. And importantly, people

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Speaker 3: misapprehend this. When you look at the studies, better than

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Speaker 3: ninety percent of people think that giving money away will

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Speaker 3: bum them out or not make them happy at spending

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Speaker 3: money on themselves, and it's just not true. And so

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Speaker 3: I think when every philosophy, every religion every great wisdom

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Speaker 3: tradition in every time and place around the world, old

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Speaker 3: stumbles onto something like, hey, being generous is good for you. Selfishly,

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Speaker 3: it's good for you. I think you sit up and listen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. It's sort of like, Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: like how you said stumbling upon it. It's like you've

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Speaker 2: discovered this like a common source code regardless of your background,

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Speaker 2: your country, your religion, and there's got to be something

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Speaker 2: true about that if it resonates with so many different people.

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Speaker 1: I'm I trying to convince my kids about that, Daniel

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Speaker 1: two when it comes to giving stuff away, and they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I can part with that, but

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Speaker 1: they've got a million of that thing, And just I think, yeah,

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Speaker 1: not only is it the declutter when you walk in

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Speaker 1: your room you know what, you can find the thing

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Speaker 1: that you actually want, but I think there is something

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Speaker 1: really incredible that kids can experience too in giving away stuff,

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Speaker 1: and adults as well. Yeah. I love that you talked

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Speaker 1: about giving in the way you did. I also love

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Speaker 1: that you cover the topic of emotion, but you covered

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Speaker 1: it in an interesting way, like you talk about how

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Speaker 1: emotions can be like the downfall for investors, but you

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Speaker 1: also don't suggest a stoic response. And I think sometimes

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Speaker 1: it is it's one or the other. It's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: emotion's going to ruin you, so uh, you know, get

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Speaker 1: a stiff upper lip and avoid being avoid being emotional.

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Speaker 1: But you think there is still a role for emotions,

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Speaker 1: that the emotions can play in our personal finances, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there is. I'm going to talk about the kids

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Speaker 3: in giving thing for a minute. I'll get to emotion.

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Speaker 3: But there was really cool research in that same chapter

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Speaker 3: that showed that kids as young as too start to

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Speaker 3: see real happiness dividends when they when they give stuff away,

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Speaker 3: but only if one condition was met, and it had

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Speaker 3: to be costly giving. So it had to be like

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Speaker 3: their toy. It's not like mom and dad gives you

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Speaker 3: five dollars to give to your friend or whatever. It

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Speaker 3: has to be there has to be sacrifice involved, and

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Speaker 3: we find that at every age. Like so, this idea

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Speaker 3: of costly giving and like giving till it stings a

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Speaker 3: little bit is actually i think one for adults and

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Speaker 3: kids alike to keep in mind. So yeah, so just

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Speaker 3: a quick aside there, I love that. Yeah, getting getting

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Speaker 3: to the emotion piece, yeah, I think a lot of

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Speaker 3: times were counseled, and I think behavioral finances, the chief

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Speaker 3: culprit here is to just remain very stoic, to sort

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Speaker 3: of divorce all emotion from our financial lives. But when

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Speaker 3: we look at it, first of all, we know from

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Speaker 3: the work of Demasio, that it is impossible that every emotion,

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Speaker 3: excuse me, every decision has an emotional substrate. And there's

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Speaker 3: just literally no decision that is so low stakes that

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Speaker 3: it doesn't have an emotional component to it. So, first

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Speaker 3: of all, it's impossible. In my book The Behavioral Investor,

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Speaker 3: I shared a study where people were hooked up to

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Speaker 3: fMRI machines, so like brain scan machines, and they showed

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Speaker 3: them all kinds of different stimuli, so like sex, death, drugs,

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Speaker 3: you know, money, religion, all the stuff you know you

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Speaker 3: shouldn't talk about at a party. And what they found

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Speaker 3: and they measured the excitatory power in the brain, and

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Speaker 3: what they found is that money had more excitatory power

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Speaker 3: in the brain than sex, than politics, than religion, than

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Speaker 3: any of these sort of other taboo topics. So you know,

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Speaker 3: point one is that every decision is emotional, and point

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Speaker 3: two is that the financial decisions are literally the most

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Speaker 3: emotional of any decisions we make. So what do we

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Speaker 3: do with this? Well, what I suggest in the book

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Speaker 3: is for look for ways where you can make that

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Speaker 3: emotion work for you. So there was one study out

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Speaker 3: of Canada where they had people look at a picture

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Speaker 3: of their spouse and their children before making a financial decision,

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Speaker 3: and the people who did saved more than twice as

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Speaker 3: much as a control group. Right because they introduced emotion

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Speaker 3: into it. And you said, hey, like this hurts to save, Like,

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Speaker 3: we experience saving as a present loss because you can't

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Speaker 3: do fun stuff with the money you're saving. But there's

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Speaker 3: something bigger involved and that emotion is what got them there.

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Speaker 3: We also know that there's ways that you can just

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Speaker 3: make emotion work for you. Financial advisors who help their

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Speaker 3: clients sort of daydream and make a goal visceral save

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Speaker 3: dramatically more than people who just said, you know, hey,

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Speaker 3: I want to save two million dollars for retirement, versus like,

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Speaker 3: hey I want to retire to Aspen, Like, well, what

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Speaker 3: does the cabin look like? Well, oh it's got this

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Speaker 3: thatched roof and blah blah blah, Like what does it

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Speaker 3: smell like? When you walk out in the morning, you

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Speaker 3: know what kind of coffee are you going to have?

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Speaker 3: So actually taking them there, making it more visceral and

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Speaker 3: more emotional. They were over seventy percent more likely to

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Speaker 3: save than the people who had the more sort of

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Speaker 3: stayed boring goal. So you shouldn't be emotional, like massively

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Speaker 3: emotional and in many respects in many parts of your

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Speaker 3: financial life. But if there are ways where you can

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Speaker 3: introduce some emotion, I say you.

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Speaker 1: Go for it.

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Speaker 2: Is this also, I'm trying to remember when you when

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Speaker 2: you talked about naming, like naming different accounts, like let's say,

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Speaker 2: instead of like having a generic IRA to instead name

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Speaker 2: it something like whatever it is that you're you're looking

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Speaker 2: to achieve. Yeah, within retirement, that's it.

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Speaker 3: That's a form of that, that's a form of introducing

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Speaker 3: both purpose and emotion to it. People who named their

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Speaker 3: accounts were ten times less likely to go to cash

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Speaker 3: in a choppy market. They were also had fifteen percent

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Speaker 3: more wealth than their same income peers in a morning

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Speaker 3: Star study. So pretty powerful stuff. Introducing that purpose and

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Speaker 3: emotion tying it back to our dollars.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's really cool, Like because yeah, just putting

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Speaker 1: as simple as something putting a name to something. It's

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Speaker 1: like if you got to adopted a dog and you

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Speaker 1: just called a dog, your connection to that dog would

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Speaker 1: probably be I don't know, quite generic, yeah exactly, like

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Speaker 1: give me your dog. Yeah, what do you call them? Fido?

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Speaker 1: You start to give them love that dog.

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Speaker 2: A little bit. Fido is more like an actual dog name, right,

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Speaker 2: Like today people name their dogs and their cats like

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Speaker 2: human names. And that that's when you really that's when

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Speaker 2: you start stopping. You start dropping the big money on

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Speaker 2: some of those that medical bills because you're thinking, well,

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Speaker 2: I got to do anything and to keep money right right.

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Speaker 1: At one point in the book to Day, you say

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Speaker 1: you don't need more knowledge, you just need to get going.

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Speaker 1: And I'm curious to pick your brain on that because

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Speaker 1: on one on what I kind of sort of agree

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Speaker 1: with you, But isn't there also a lot of room

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Speaker 1: for significant mistakes, like I don't know. We get questions

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Speaker 1: all the time, Hey, I just got this really awful

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Speaker 1: insurance product and it costs a whole lot of money.

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Speaker 1: What should I do? How do I get out of this?

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Speaker 1: We're investing in like high cost funds that are maybe

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Speaker 1: the flavor of the month, but they're not the best

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Speaker 1: thing to be in your portfolio for the next three decades.

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Speaker 1: So how do you think about that dichotomy of you

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily need more knowledge, you just need to get going,

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Speaker 1: but also without enough knowledge you can make some significant mistakes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there there is I think I think we probably

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Speaker 3: are in violent agreement here. There is definitely a place

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Speaker 3: for education, And the biggest place for education is in

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Speaker 3: knowing what not to do, right. I think a lot

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Speaker 3: of people think that that the benefit of education is

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Speaker 3: you're going to know every twist and turn of your

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Speaker 3: financial life. The biggest benefit of education financial education is

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Speaker 3: avoiding big blunders, right, like, oh that's what a fund

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Speaker 3: should cost, this one costs way too much, or you know,

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Speaker 3: that's what I should be paying an advisor. This one's way,

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Speaker 3: you know, not not doing what they should be doing

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Speaker 3: at all. And so I think the highest and best

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Speaker 3: use is meta knowledge, which is sort of knowing what

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Speaker 3: you don't know and knowing when you need help and

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Speaker 3: knowing when you need to bring someone in. So there

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Speaker 3: is absolutely a place a place for education, and I

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Speaker 3: don't mean to undermine that at all. But once you

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Speaker 3: have sort of the fundaments of a basic working knowledge.

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Speaker 3: And I think a lot of people do right. They

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Speaker 3: know that, you know, they need to be saving, they

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Speaker 3: need to be investing, they need to be diversifying. And

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Speaker 3: I think what's needed after that is courage, because there's

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Speaker 3: something called the knowing doing gap that's really pronounced in

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Speaker 3: human behavior. And the example that I like to use

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Speaker 3: is nurses. Nurses smoke at double the level of the

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Speaker 3: general population. And if you you know, I'm not recommending

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Speaker 3: that you do this, but if you go up to

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Speaker 3: an you know, if you go up to a nurse

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Speaker 3: who's smoking outside the hospital and say like, hey, should

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Speaker 3: you like, is this a great idea? You know? You know,

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Speaker 3: I think to a person, they're going to tell you, no,

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Speaker 3: this isn't a great idea. But you know, they have

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Speaker 3: hard jobs, they have stressful jobs. We don't pay them enough,

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Speaker 3: and so you know, they try and get a smoke break.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's true of many things. You know,

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Speaker 3: there's some large I think it's twenty to twenty five

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Speaker 3: percent of people cheat on their spouse, and you know,

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Speaker 3: none of them are like, yeah, this is good, this

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Speaker 3: is what I should be doing. You know, I think

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of cases where we know what to

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Speaker 3: do and we just don't do the right thing because

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Speaker 3: we don't have support or we don't have courage. So yes,

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Speaker 3: by all means, you do need to educate yourself, especially

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Speaker 3: on just the biggest pitfalls in your financial life, because

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Speaker 3: I think not making big mistakes is even more important

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Speaker 3: than shooting the lights out. But once you've acquired that knowledge,

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Speaker 3: which I think you know could take. If people listen

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Speaker 3: to probably fifty back episodes of your podcast and read

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Speaker 3: a couple of good books, they'd be there. And like,

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Speaker 3: after that point, you just need the courage or the support.

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Speaker 1: Oh I thought you were going to say, after that point,

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Speaker 1: they should still keep listening to this podcast just for

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Speaker 1: the entertainment value, right.

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Speaker 3: Still keep listening, keep listening.

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Speaker 2: Initiate the play. But not like we got to count

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Speaker 2: those down, those guys. But I mean that raises the

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Speaker 2: question then, like how would you reckon for folks to

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Speaker 2: find that courage? You already talk about tying some of

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Speaker 2: the different goals and things that you're trying to achieve

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Speaker 2: with your money to purpose, how to tie it to emotion?

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Speaker 2: Are there other ways that you would recommend for folks

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Speaker 2: to sort of dig up and unearth and find some

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Speaker 2: of that courage to be able to do the right thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think two things to keep in mind. One

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Speaker 3: is to keep a strength based approach, and then two

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Speaker 3: is to do it incrementally. Right, A lot of times

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Speaker 3: when we're making change, you know, if it's a new

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Speaker 3: Year's resolution or whatever, we try and do the most

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Speaker 3: miserable thing possible. So, like the three of us were

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Speaker 3: talking before about I've lost some weight this year, and

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Speaker 3: you were like, oh, did you start running? And I

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Speaker 3: said no, because I hate running, right, So that is

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Speaker 3: not what I chose to do because I really hate it.

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Speaker 3: But I think a lot of times we try and

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Speaker 3: go for the most hardcore version of the change, where

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Speaker 3: we're trying to make take whatever good you're doing and

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Speaker 3: do ten percent more of it. Take your existing strengths,

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Speaker 3: magnify them a little bit, and do more of what

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Speaker 3: you're already good at. Is the first thing, the first

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Speaker 3: thing that I would say, and then you know, the

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Speaker 3: second thing is to do it incrementally, to go back,

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Speaker 3: you know, to go back to our new Year's resolution idea.

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Speaker 3: There the reason that only eighteen percent of people follow

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Speaker 3: through on their New Year's resolutions. Is because you know,

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Speaker 3: we set a goal on December thirty first to run

432
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,199
Speaker 3: a marathon, and then you know, on January second, we

433
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,119
Speaker 3: run ten miles on you know, you know on January

434
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 3: third we run three miles because you know, we've got

435
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 3: shin splints now, and then by January fifth, we haven't

436
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 3: gotten off the couch again because we're just done right,

437
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:46,359
Speaker 3: because we over exerted ourselves. So take something you're already

438
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 3: good at, do ten percent more of it, and continue

439
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 3: to build on that momentum. A behavior in motion tends

440
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,159
Speaker 3: to stay in motion. A behavior at rest tends to

441
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,160
Speaker 3: stay at rest. So just keep that in mind.

442
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 1: I think it's good advice. Yeah, the couch to five

443
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 1: k It might sound a little lame if you've got

444
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 1: massive goals, but the truth is that's what's going to

445
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 1: help you get there. Like, start with that first and

446
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 1: then yeah, you'll eventually reach this marathon goal is just

447
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 1: going to take time. Right, We've got more to get

448
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 1: to with you, Daniel. There's so much good stuff in

449
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 1: this book. The book is The Soul of Wealth, Fifty

450
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 1: reflections on money and meaning. We've only covered a handful

451
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: so We'll get to some more with doctor Crosby right

452
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:20,439
Speaker 1: after this.

453
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 2: Right, we are back from the break with doctor Daniel

454
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,199
Speaker 2: Crosby talking about the soul of wealth as we answer

455
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 2: some of the big questions in life. Daniel, in a

456
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 2: book like this, right that the Soul of Wealth, You're

457
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 2: gonna talk about the relationship between money and happiness. And

458
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 2: there have been so many studies that oftentimes are contradictory.

459
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 1: I feel like there's just.

460
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 2: A there's been another one recently that's making a case

461
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 2: for the fact that no, in fact, high earners do

462
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 2: see increased levels of happiness when it comes.

463
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: To or they get a pay bomp. Yeah.

464
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, when they do get a paid bomp, they do

465
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,680
Speaker 2: see increased levels of happiness. And then like previous studies.

466
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 1: Were like seventy K, Yeah, any more money, you don't need.

467
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 2: It, Like the data keeps flip flopping, But like, what's

468
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 2: your read on the correlation I guess between happiness and

469
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 2: higher levels of income.

470
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 3: It is quite complicated, And that seventy five K study

471
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 3: really had a nice run, and people like me were

472
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,360
Speaker 3: sort of shouting it from the rooftops because I think

473
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 3: it conformed to many of our prior assumptions about money,

474
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 3: which was, hey, money kind of flat lines passed, you know,

475
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,479
Speaker 3: about about seventy five thousand bucks a year because you

476
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 3: can buy the necessities of life. Well, there's a few

477
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 3: caveats there, right. The first caveat is that it matters

478
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 3: a great deal how you measure happiness. You know, there's

479
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 3: no blood test for happiness, and even the construct of

480
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 3: happiness is a little fuzzy. So in some studies where

481
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 3: it's plateaus which around what would now be about one

482
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars seventy five a few years ago, one

483
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars a year, what we see is there's

484
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 3: no not much of a bump in need reduction, because

485
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 3: one measure of happiness is sort of not having needs.

486
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not hungry, I'm not cold, I'm not thirsty,

487
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 3: I'm not tired, I'm not scared. You know, there's a

488
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 3: level of happiness that comes when those needs are reduced,

489
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 3: and indeed, that happens pretty quickly. Like at about one

490
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars a year, you have enough to eat,

491
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 3: you live in a safe home, you can buy a mattress,

492
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 3: so the needs are reduced. So if that's all you

493
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 3: want out of your measure of happiness, then yes, that

494
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 3: is true. What we find though, is if you measure

495
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 3: happiness a little more holistically, a little more qualitatively, they'll

496
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 3: have people fill out self reports, so they say, hey,

497
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 3: Matt and Joel like, write me a paragraph on how

498
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,360
Speaker 3: you live in mattin Joel like, write me a paragraph

499
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 3: how are you doing? And they find that in this case,

500
00:25:55,080 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 3: these qualitative subjective self reports of happiness basically up into

501
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 3: the right forever. You know, they measure it up to

502
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 3: half a million dollars a year because there's just not

503
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 3: a ton of people that make more than that a year.

504
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 3: But yeah, so basically from zero to half a million

505
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 3: dollars a year at every income bump up, people are

506
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 3: happier than the one below. Right, So that's a little

507
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 3: bit different measure of happiness. Now here's another interesting twist

508
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 3: on this. The studies have also found that about fifteen

509
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 3: percent of people are never happy.

510
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: So there's I've met those people, Daniel, I met some Yeah.

511
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 3: Let everyone just populate the person you're thinking of your lot. Yeah,

512
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 3: so about fifteen percent of people are happy, are not

513
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 3: happy at any level of income, and are completely impervious

514
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 3: to money as a predictor of their happiness. So this

515
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 3: is kind of like a you know, wherever you go there,

516
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 3: you are a sort of thing, and you just need

517
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 3: to work on yourself and not trying to make more money.

518
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 3: We also know now that how you spend your money

519
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 3: has a material impact on how happy it makes you.

520
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 3: So a car is a great example, like a a

521
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 3: big ticket purchase. If you buy a car because you

522
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 3: want to stunt on your neighbors or you want to

523
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 3: impress you know, someone that you have a crush on.

524
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 3: The studies show that the impact of buying that car

525
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 3: is a very short bump in happiness followed by sort

526
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 3: of a flatlining, and the process by which that happens

527
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 3: is called habituation. You basically just get used to it, right,

528
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 3: It's like, oh, you see a nice jump in happiness,

529
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 3: and then your car just becomes your car, right, It's

530
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 3: just now your grocery getter, even if it's a Ferrari

531
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 3: or something cool. And so that doesn't buy you much happiness.

532
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 3: But if you buy that car to join the Atlanta

533
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 3: you know, cars and coffee, then suddenly it does buy

534
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 3: you happiness. Because relationships are the most reliable path to happiness.

535
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 3: If there are ways you can spend money to increase

536
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 3: your relationships, right, a trip with family, joining some sort

537
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 3: of civic or club organization, buying a car or something

538
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 3: to get entree into a car club. All of that

539
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 3: buys happiness. And then we've got all the done and

540
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 3: norton stuff, right. We know that people who spend people

541
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 3: who spend money on getting out of stuff they hate

542
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 3: and get more of their time back. That buys you happiness.

543
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 3: People who spend money in ways that are consistent with

544
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 3: the person they want to be. You know, I've got

545
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 3: all these fancy guitars up here on my wall, and

546
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 3: I am really mediocre as a guitarist. I'm like, my

547
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:04,479
Speaker 3: guitars are two standard deviations better than my talent, you know.

548
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 3: But but I want to be seen as the kind

549
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 3: of guy who plays guitar, and so like they they

550
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 3: they buy me some happiness. Ye. So yeah, spending money

551
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 3: in ways that bring about relationships, time, freedom, in ways

552
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 3: that are consistent with our personality. And then of course

553
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 3: giving money away is another big big one. Those are

554
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 3: all consistently ways we can buy happiness. So money protects

555
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 3: us like low levels of wealth predictably get us misery,

556
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 3: but whether higher levels of wealth get us happiness has

557
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 3: a great deal to do with how we spend it.

558
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: So for me, it's having not having to break my

559
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: own leaves because I raked so many when I was

560
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: a kid, and I was like, never again. And it's

561
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 1: apropos this time of year because we're getting into the

562
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: leaf season.

563
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 2: Hey, because you can hear the leaf blowers in the background.

564
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: Close to the background, and then there will be somebody

565
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: in my house doing that, thankfully, because my parents maybe

566
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: do too much growing up. Daniel, You're right about our

567
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: tendencies to mimic the people around us, sometimes to just

568
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: to impress, but other times it's just literally to live

569
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: like the people who are our neighbors or our friends,

570
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: and that can of course have potentially positive effects in

571
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,959
Speaker 1: some ways if you're mimicking good habits, or negative effects

572
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: on the topic of money, if you're trying to keep

573
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: up with the Joneses. So, yeah, talk about mimicry, why

574
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: we're tempted to do it, and how that can impact

575
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: our finances.

576
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. So if you if you look at what makes

577
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 3: us why we're the top of the food chain, right

578
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 3: why we why we are the animal to sort of

579
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 3: beat all animals. The reason is that we work together.

580
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 3: You know, we don't have a lot of the gifts

581
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 3: of the rest of the animal kingdom. We're not strong,

582
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 3: we don't have sharp teeth, we don't have cool fur.

583
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 3: You know, we just we're not as tough as the

584
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:52,479
Speaker 3: rest of the animal kingdom.

585
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 2: Speaking for yourself, danged, I know.

586
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 3: Sorry, we do have a new we do have a

587
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 3: new home gym on the podcast. We're trying to get that,

588
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 3: we're trying to get that animal power. But yeah, we're

589
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 3: we're just not as physically tough as much of the

590
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 3: animal kingdom. So the thing that we have to do

591
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 3: is cooperate and work together. And we are so profoundly

592
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 3: wired to mimic each other and to follow each other

593
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 3: that it can get us in some really good places

594
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 3: and some really bad places. So in terms of the

595
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 3: really bad places, you know, the concept here is called mimesis,

596
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 3: and Luke Burgess wrote a great wrote a great sort

597
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 3: of summary of the work on mimesis if you want

598
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 3: to check that out. But you know, mimesis is basically

599
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 3: just wanting something because other people want it, you know,

600
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 3: and we see this with like teenagers and fashion trends,

601
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 3: right of course, like I, why do you want that?

602
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 3: Well because my friends have it, right, But but it

603
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 3: happens to all of us, and in fact, we see

604
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 3: it a lot. You know, I work with a lot

605
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 3: of financial advisors, and a lot of times when you

606
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 3: ask someone in a discovery meeting like okay, well what

607
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 3: is your what is your financial goal? It's going to

608
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 3: be like, well, you know, I want I want to

609
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 3: retire with three million dollars, Like, well, why three million?

610
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 3: Well because my brother in law has two million. You know,

611
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 3: You're like, oh, well I want to boat. You know,

612
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 3: well why do you want to boat? Well, my neighbor

613
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 3: just got a boat and it looks cool. So a

614
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 3: lot of times, if we really examine our financial wants,

615
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 3: they really have come from another place in time, Like

616
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 3: it may have been how we were brought up, but

617
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 3: our parents taught us to value what we see in

618
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 3: our neighbors, what we see in our friends, and it

619
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 3: can become very tricky, Like you know, you really have

620
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 3: to give some deep thought and some deep conversation to

621
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 3: trying to figure out what you really want and make

622
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 3: sure you're not have your ladder propped up against the

623
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 3: wrong wall, so to speak. The other like obvious way

624
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 3: that we mimesis and sort of fough aping what other

625
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 3: people do gets us sideways is in markets, right, if

626
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 3: we follow people into crowded trades and you know, jump

627
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 3: into bubbles and all the craziness that we saw happening,

628
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 3: you know, sort of in and around the pandemic. But

629
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 3: if we understand the power of other people, surrounding ourselves

630
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 3: with people who have the same goals and ambitions of

631
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 3: us as us can be a super powerful thing. You know.

632
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 3: I write in the book about how people with a

633
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 3: mentor make dramatically more money than people without a mentor

634
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 3: because they've surrounded themselves with someone who has gotten to

635
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 3: where they want to go. You know, we also know

636
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 3: that when we look at the behavior change data for

637
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 3: weight loss. Again, for people who are trying to lose weight,

638
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 3: the two best predictors of weight loss are A do

639
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 3: you weigh yourself daily so like sort of that daily

640
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 3: daily feedback, and then B has one of the five

641
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:06,719
Speaker 3: people you are closest to lost weight recently. So people

642
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 3: who are surrounded by people who gain weight tend to

643
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 3: gain weight, And vice versa with losing weight, and the

644
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 3: same thing is true of money. So understanding how powerfully

645
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 3: influenced you are by other people that this is literally

646
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 3: the thing above all other things that you were wired

647
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 3: to do. When you start to understand that, you start

648
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 3: to get thoughtful about who you surround yourself with and

649
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,399
Speaker 3: even what sorts of ideas you put in your head,

650
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 3: you know, the kind of books you read, the kind

651
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 3: of media you consume. Because all of this has a

652
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 3: material impact on the way you move through the world.

653
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: It makes so much sense. Yeah, when we were talking

654
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 2: about happiness a second ago, you kind of mentioned how

655
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 2: buying back time and I think you wrote that this

656
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,280
Speaker 2: is the quote unquote ultimate purchase And so for Joel,

657
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 2: that's not raking leaves. But why is that the case

658
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 2: for folks? And so two questions here. Is it simply

659
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 2: because the fact that we have such a limited, undefined,

660
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 2: limited amount of time here on this planet? Is it

661
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: that simple? But then my second question, as folks are

662
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 2: trying to evaluate what types of time that they are

663
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 2: looking to buy back, how would you recommend for them

664
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,240
Speaker 2: to evaluate evaluate the types that they should consider.

665
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know the the article about this, you

666
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 3: know it's like, you don't want to be rich, you

667
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 3: want to be free. And this came to me when

668
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 3: I was reading an article about Elon Musk, Right, So

669
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 3: I mean, I can't depending on the day, the richest

670
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 3: guy in the world, right and and you know, a

671
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 3: couple hundred billion dollars and he was talking about, Yeah,

672
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 3: I have a standing meeting at nine pm with my

673
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 3: like my lieutenants. And I read this article and I

674
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 3: felt so bad for him, and I'm like, this guy's

675
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 3: life sucks in nine pm on a Saturday every week,

676
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 3: Like I'm I'm on the couch, like I'm out for

677
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 3: a walk, I'm hanging with my family, I'm doing something fun,

678
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 3: and you have a meeting, Like what what is the

679
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 3: point of all this money if you don't have the

680
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 3: accompanying freedom. So that was what sort of tripped it

681
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 3: for me. And look, maybe he truly loves what he

682
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 3: does so much that you know, it's it's a joy

683
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 3: for him. I don't know. He also has like eleven kids,

684
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 3: so maybe he should go hang out with one of them.

685
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 3: But you know, that's what kind of tripped it for me.

686
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 3: But yeah, on the one hand, yes, it's like all

687
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 3: the all the folks. The aphorisms are true, right, it's

688
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 3: the one thing that you know, they're not making any

689
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 3: more of his time, and it's this sort of precious

690
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 3: limited resource. That's that's all true. But you know, I

691
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 3: think it's also self determination. You know, if you if

692
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 3: you sort of move up Maslow's hierarchy. One of the

693
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 3: things that wealth does is allow us to sort of

694
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 3: I'm that ladder of human achievement, because for people at

695
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 3: very low levels of wealth, which is a lot of

696
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 3: the world, you're you're sort of always struggling at that

697
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 3: base of Maslow's hierarchy. You're trying to get warm, you're

698
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 3: trying to get full, you're trying to get safe, and

699
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 3: there's I mean, look, there's nothing, there's nothing wrong with that.

700
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 3: That's that's dignified. That's a dignified pursuit. But if you

701
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 3: have achieved enough success that you can move past that,

702
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 3: you should, right and you should focus on things like

703
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 3: exercising your time, your freedom, your agency, your intellect, and

704
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 3: things that help you grow, that help the world become

705
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 3: a better place. And so I just think it's a

706
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 3: it's a lofty and a good use of a life

707
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 3: to use that freedom that you can you can buy

708
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 3: yourself out of, you know, the need to always be

709
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 3: focused on this and focus on solving bigger problems for

710
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 3: yourself and the world world.

711
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: I do think too, that buying back your time can

712
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: be a slippery slope if it's not thought of properly.

713
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 1: Like I think about someone saying, I'm going to buy

714
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: my time back, so I'm gonna order the door dash delivery,

715
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: and not only am I saving the time of having

716
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 1: to cooking meal, I'm saving the time of having to

717
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: clean dishes and guess what, I don't have to go

718
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: pick up the food. Either a whole lot of justification there,

719
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: and then I can watch extra Netflix that night or

720
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: something like that. And So I think that there's maybe

721
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: a difference in the in how much it might you

722
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: might be willing to spend to buy back your time

723
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 1: and on on what things might be might make sense

724
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: from a monetary perspective to purchase. So I don't know,

725
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: do you have any thoughts on that making good decisions

726
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: about or and maybe knowing, Hey, I'm saying I'm buying

727
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 1: back my time, but I'm actually just spending money improperly,

728
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: and maybe not even have the money to buy back

729
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:49,479
Speaker 1: this time.

730
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:55,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think anything can be mechanized and over optimized

731
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 3: to the point that it's totally soulless. Right, Like, I'm

732
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 3: I I make enough money that from a strictly rationalist,

733
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 3: mechanistic perspective, it doesn't make sense from a buy back

734
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 3: your time perspective for me to raise my children like

735
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 3: I could always cool. Yeah, Like I could always pay

736
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 3: someone to take care of my children, who makes, you know,

737
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 3: a great deal less money than I do. But I

738
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 3: want to take care of my children because I love them,

739
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 3: and I grow from that and they grow from that hopefully. Right.

740
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 3: So I think there's a lot of things like that

741
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 3: in life. I think there are certain things we need

742
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 3: to do because they're the right thing, or because they're

743
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 3: good for us, or they help us grow or they

744
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 3: build character, and so you know, I personally, Look, we

745
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 3: all live in the South. It's too hot, Like I

746
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 3: don't cut my yard, Like that's that's not the way

747
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 3: that my character is going to grow. But I will clean.

748
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 3: But I will clean a bathroom with the best of them. Right.

749
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 3: So I think I think over optimization, you can you

750
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 3: can go to the extreme other end of this thing

751
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 3: by trying to over optimize your life and going, well,

752
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 3: my hourly rate is this, So this activity is beneath me.

753
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 3: Some stuff you just need to do to be a

754
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 3: good human. Yeah, and that's you know, that's a hard

755
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 3: line to draw, but I believe it's a generally good principle.

756
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,399
Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean, I think there's something there about

757
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 2: being a good human and I think you're kind of

758
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 2: alluding to that when you were talking about solving problems

759
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 2: in the world and making the world a better place, right, Like,

760
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 2: there's sort of like more of this noble calling. But

761
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 2: at the same time, I think you can kind of

762
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 2: I feel comfortable holding that at the same time that

763
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 2: I say, well, it's just because I want to live

764
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 2: my life in a certain way, and ultimately that maybe

765
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 2: with I peel back the layers, I can see that like, oh,

766
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 2: it is raising a family. Oh, it's having kids. It's

767
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,399
Speaker 2: some of these things that are a little bit more

768
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 2: of a noble calling. But I think that there's an

769
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 2: argument to be made for folks who just want to

770
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,839
Speaker 2: live their life a certain way. And I guess as

771
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 2: I talk through this, like we often talk about entrepreneurship

772
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 2: and owning your own business, and oftentimes I think it's

773
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 2: not necessarily a financial reward that you would receive from that.

774
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 2: It is the ability to own your own time and

775
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: to call the shots and to sort of dictate how

776
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 2: it is that you would to live your life. Have

777
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 2: you seen that in folks in your research?

778
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I absolutely think so. And I mean, go, you

779
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 3: could apply it to giving. You could apply it to entrepreneurship.

780
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 3: You could apply it to giving. Like when it comes

781
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 3: to giving, I talk in the book about having a

782
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:28,439
Speaker 3: diversified portfolio of giving, and part of that is your

783
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 3: own sweat, right, I mean, wherever I am, look, I

784
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 3: am strictly an ideas guy, Like I can't hammer a nail,

785
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 3: I can't saw a log, like I'm the least handy

786
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 3: person you would ever know. But a couple of times

787
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 3: a year, me and my clunky, lurpy, not coordinated self

788
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 3: will go, you know, we'll go volunteer somewhere. And I

789
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 3: also give money. Right from a perfectly rationalist, strictly functional perspective,

790
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 3: I should always write a check because give me. I

791
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 3: should only give money. But I but I still see

792
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 3: value in making myself uncomfortable, taking my kids to be uncomfortable,

793
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 3: to just you know, expose myself to different ways of being,

794
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 3: different ways of living, and to to give back, however feebly. Right.

795
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 3: So I do think you can. You know. Part of

796
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 3: the reason the book's title, The Soul of Wealth is

797
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 3: a little squishy, right, is because I think soul has

798
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 3: to enter into these conversations like, Yeah, when you're deciding

799
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 3: should should I be an entrepreneur? Part of that decision

800
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 3: should necessarily be financial, but part of it should be

801
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 3: a question of agency. Part of it should be a

802
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 3: question of like do I want to be the man

803
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,359
Speaker 3: or woman in the arena, and like would you know,

804
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 3: would this help me be more of that? So I

805
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 3: think there's always soulful questions to be considered, and I

806
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 3: think we really lose our way when we when we

807
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,439
Speaker 3: look at it in such an analytical, black and white way.

808
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 2: Well said, no, I love that. Yeah, And sometimes you

809
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 2: just have to get out there and live life to

810
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 2: experience whether like there's just different facets of understanding that

811
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 2: we gain. I think by exposing ourselves to different arenas,

812
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 2: different sectors of life that maybe we're not even all

813
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 2: that good at.

814
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're seeing things I would have said I hated

815
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: at one point in my life, and then I tried

816
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: it and I was like, oh, it's not that bad.

817
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: Actually I'm into that.

818
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:24,479
Speaker 2: And you realize you're probably a better person for having

819
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,399
Speaker 2: tried those things rounded and even like what Daniel said,

820
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 2: saying too just exposing your kids to that because you

821
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 2: don't know what they're gonna like, what kind of person

822
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 2: that they are going to become, and so so much

823
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 2: of life I think when it comes to raising our

824
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 2: kids is helping them to become the best version of themselves,

825
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 2: and oftentimes that requires a whole lot of exposure and

826
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,399
Speaker 2: to treat life like a golden corral sometimes.

827
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 1: Matt, it's a little bit of everything.

828
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 2: Data. We got more that we want to get to.

829
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 2: I'm hoping to ask a quick question about delayed gratification.

830
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 2: We'll get to that more right after this.

831
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 1: We're back in the break. We're still talking about the

832
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: squishy in this episode, the soul of wealth, which I

833
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: think Daniel talks about so well in his book, and

834
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,360
Speaker 1: it's if you like bite sized books like by your bedstand,

835
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: this one's a good one to be kind of like,

836
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: I know, as you read learning more about money, but

837
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: the things that are deeper than money too, one of

838
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 1: the things you actually have a chapter Daniel called the

839
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 1: best way to learn about money is to teach about money.

840
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: And I'm just thinking, Let's say this is someone listening

841
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:28,359
Speaker 1: to this podcast, this is their first episode of How

842
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,359
Speaker 1: to Money, and they're like, wait a second, you guys

843
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: are already telling me I need to go teach other people

844
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 1: about money. That sounds really weird. I don't think I'm

845
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: ready for that. I don't know anything. What would you

846
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:37,399
Speaker 1: say to that person?

847
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, So this this draws on something called the Fineman technique,

848
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 3: which I stole from from the Nobel Prize winning physicist

849
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,720
Speaker 3: Richard Feyneman. But he was kind of a cheeky dude,

850
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 3: and so he would do this thing where he would

851
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 3: ask people, you know, he'd be like, hey, hey, do

852
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 3: you know how a toilet works? And they would go, yeah,

853
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 3: you know, like I, you know, I use a toilet

854
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 3: a couple times a day. I sure do know how

855
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 3: a toilet works. And he'd go, oh, okay, well great,

856
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 3: then then teach me, like tell you know, tell me

857
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 3: how a toilet works. And then of course we realize

858
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 3: we have no idea how a toilet works, right, like

859
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 3: we like we have no idea how anything in our

860
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,799
Speaker 3: house works. And so what he encouraged people to do

861
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 3: was like a four step process. So basically, you select

862
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,439
Speaker 3: a concept to learn, right, you select a concept to learn.

863
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 3: So I want to learn about, you know, investing. I

864
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 3: want to learn about index funds. Okay, cool? And then

865
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,280
Speaker 3: you you read up, you watch, you learn, you listen,

866
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 3: and then you try and teach it to a novice. Right,

867
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 3: so I might. My youngest child is eight years old,

868
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 3: and I know you guys have kids, and it's like,

869
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 3: you know when a young kid asks you like what

870
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 3: does this word mean? And you kind of know, but

871
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 3: then you but then you know, but then you have

872
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 3: to explain it to them in really parsimonious terms and

873
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,919
Speaker 3: you're like, I don't, I don't really, I don't really

874
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 3: understand this. Like my son is super into World War

875
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 3: two right now, and he keeps asking me all about

876
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 3: all these battles and I'm like, look, buddy, like I

877
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 3: just don't know. You know, He's asking me yesterday like

878
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 3: what was you know, what was Italy's contribution to World

879
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 3: War Two? And I was.

880
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 1: Like, Dad, didn't you go to fourth grade? You're like, yeah,

881
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 1: A long time ago.

882
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm like, I'm gonna have to read up on

883
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 3: Italy bud. So you select a concept to learn, you

884
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 3: teach it to a novice. When they inevitably ask you questions,

885
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 3: you review and fill in your gaps in the knowledge,

886
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 3: and then you simplify it further and you reduce clutter. So,

887
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 3: you know, teaching these concepts to a fellow novice, to

888
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 3: a young person is a really great way. And I

889
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 3: mean I say this every time I write a book,

890
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 3: and it is the gospel truth. The reason I write,

891
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 3: I mean it is the worst paying It is like

892
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 3: the hardest, worst paying thing could ever do. And the

893
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 3: reason I write is because it helps me know what

894
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 3: I believe. And I you know, I'm in a position

895
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 3: where I have to create technology and speak to experts,

896
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 3: and I have to be on the top of my game,

897
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 3: and there is no substitute for trying to write a

898
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 3: five page chapter on a topic and express the essence

899
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 3: of a topic in sort of a quick way to go, oh,

900
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 3: I don't really get this. You know, I don't really

901
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 3: understand this. So I love the refinement technique. Select a

902
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 3: concept to learn, teach it to a beginner, see what

903
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 3: they ask you, and where your gaps are and simplify

904
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 3: further and reduce the clutter.

905
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 2: I love it all right, I'm getting to my delayed

906
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 2: gratification question, Daniel, because.

907
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 1: Your gratification in response, I've delayed myself indeed. But you've

908
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: called it the skeleton key to a better life. But

909
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 1: it's one thing to know that and to hear that,

910
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: but to actually be told no that you can't have

911
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: something like that is not something that anybody wants to hear,

912
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:05,320
Speaker 1: like when we definitely don't want to tell.

913
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 2: It to ourselves. And so how can we get better

914
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 2: at delay gratification and not giving into the impulses in

915
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 2: the here now?

916
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, So there's a couple of things we can do.

917
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 3: Like when it comes to money, delaying gratification is tricky

918
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 3: because we experience it as a as a current loss.

919
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 3: And part of the reason we do that is because

920
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 3: we haven't gotten very in touch with our future selves.

921
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 3: So I talked earlier about the process of visualization and

922
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 3: emotion and making that future state more salient.

923
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 2: If the smell, the smell of the cabin enaspen.

924
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,919
Speaker 3: The smell of the cabin enassmen exactly, man, So if

925
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 3: we can get a little bit better in touch with

926
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 3: that concept of saying like, hey, I'm not losing money today,

927
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 3: I'm just saving for a brighter tomorrow, and we can

928
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 3: get a little excited about that. The other thing that

929
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 3: we can do is tie rewards to various steps along

930
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 3: the way, right, you know, to to tie rewards to

931
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 3: various steps along the way. You know, I keep going

932
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,839
Speaker 3: back to this because it's so been such a big

933
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 3: part of my life this year. But I've you know,

934
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 3: I've lost weight this year, a lot, lost quite a

935
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 3: bit of weight this year. And one of the fun

936
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 3: things about that was getting new getting new clothes, Like

937
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,919
Speaker 3: I really like clothes, and you're like, oh, okay, well

938
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 3: hey if this, then that right, you know, tie little

939
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 3: rewards along the journey and get little steps along the way.

940
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 3: The other thing that we can do is make it incremental.

941
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 3: You know, when you tell people that the average person

942
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 3: listening to this podcast today, I'm gonna bump some people out.

943
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 3: Like we used to talk about being a millionaire as

944
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,799
Speaker 3: though it was a big deal, Like effectively, everyone will

945
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 3: have to be a millionaire, you know, going forward to retire,

946
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 3: because to live even a modest life and retirement will

947
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 3: take seven figures, and so you know, breaking hearing that

948
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,399
Speaker 3: is sort of overwhelming because you go, guys, I make

949
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 3: fifty grand a year, like, how you know, how can

950
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,320
Speaker 3: I how can I save you know, a million or

951
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 3: millions of dollars? Well, you incrementalism is the answer. So

952
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 3: breaking that down is a big piece. And then finally

953
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,319
Speaker 3: go back to the relationship piece, like take take the

954
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:28,720
Speaker 3: journey with people who are going to the same place

955
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 3: as you. It makes it makes it a lot less painful.

956
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 3: But you know, every every good thing, as I talk

957
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 3: about in the in the chapter, whether you're talking about relationships,

958
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 3: physical fitness, financial wellness, every good thing in life comes

959
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 3: when we're able to delay gratification, and just about every

960
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 3: bad thing in life violence, you know, violence, addiction, crime,

961
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 3: all of these are sort of the inverse of that.

962
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 3: So it really is this skeleton key for us that

963
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 3: we'd be wise to take seriously.

964
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 1: To mention debt and anxiety. Right, the more you frontload

965
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,359
Speaker 1: some of those purchases, at least on the money side,

966
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 1: it's going to lead to those things. And those are

967
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 1: I mean, when you talk about people stress levels, money

968
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 1: has a lot to do with it. And if you

969
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 1: can delay gratification, save more, avoid purchasing some of those things.

970
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,840
Speaker 1: You're going to be better off from that perspective, Daniel,

971
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,240
Speaker 1: this was such a fun conversation. Where can our listeners

972
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:22,800
Speaker 1: go to find out more about you and more to

973
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 1: find out about your brand new book.

974
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:26,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, the number one thing they should do is go

975
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,280
Speaker 3: buy the Soul of Wealth and start having these squishy,

976
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 3: so soulful conversations. I'm Daniel Crosby PhD on LinkedIn and

977
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 3: at Daniel Crosby on Twitter.

978
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 2: Nice, we'll make sure they'll link to all of that

979
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 2: with the book having just come out yesterday, Daniel, thanks

980
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 2: so much for chat with us today.

981
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 3: Man, my pleasure. Guys.

982
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 1: All right, Matt, that's a great combo with the good

983
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: doctor Daniel Crosby and.

984
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 2: Doctor Crosby Medicine. Woman.

985
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 1: Right, you watched that, Right, of course I did. It's

986
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:57,399
Speaker 1: such a good show. That was like our family show

987
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 1: back in the Day's Jane Seymour that's right. Yeah, But

988
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 1: I love this topic and I think it's something. If

989
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: we have made any massive changes as hosts of the

990
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 1: How to Money podcast over since we since its inception,

991
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 1: I would say the biggest change is to focus more

992
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: on a holistic version of well being and wealth. And

993
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 1: so it's like nuts and bolts are still important. There's

994
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: a lot of like personal finance nerdery we got to

995
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 1: get into. But this stuff I think matters so much,

996
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,439
Speaker 1: And as you're shrying me to build wealth, you can't

997
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 1: forget about this stuf.

998
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, and selfishly, I think these are probably more of

999
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 2: the kind of questions that we are also asking. So

1000
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 2: with that, Joel's gonna go ahead and announce the new

1001
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 2: name of our podcast, shift to more holistic. That's right approach. No,

1002
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,239
Speaker 2: we're gonna gt holistic money. We'll keep talking about how

1003
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 2: to money, contribution limits and all that stuff. Yeah, what

1004
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 2: was your big takeaway though? Did you have a there's

1005
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 2: so many good nuggets, but did you have a specific takeaway.

1006
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:49,400
Speaker 1: I'm better to go with something super basic that we

1007
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 1: said to give your accounts a name. I was like,

1008
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 1: it's brilliant, Like it's so good. You're ten times less

1009
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: likely to move into cash in a downturn. He said,

1010
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,799
Speaker 1: you're gonna have fifteen percent more wealth. It's amazing how

1011
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 1: you give something a name, you give it a designation.

1012
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 1: When all of a sudden it takes her life of

1013
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 1: its own.

1014
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1015
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 1: Purpose, that's what he says.

1016
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 2: They tie a purpose to that money, not just sort

1017
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 2: of like this generic catch all investment retirement account, but

1018
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 2: something specific that's something I haven't done that I'm going

1019
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 2: to go do now, are you literally just because of

1020
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 2: hearing doctor Crosby talking about that, and I think he's

1021
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:23,240
Speaker 2: probably right. I think if I assign something some deeper

1022
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 2: meaning to something as simple as a brokerage account, that maybe,

1023
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,320
Speaker 2: just maybe I'll treat it with a little more respect.

1024
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:31,839
Speaker 1: See.

1025
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:33,879
Speaker 2: So the problem is is I I'm trying to put

1026
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 2: myself in that same position, and I don't exactly because

1027
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:37,919
Speaker 2: I don't have like a clear goal of like say,

1028
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,720
Speaker 2: when it is I'm going to retire or something big

1029
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:42,959
Speaker 2: and expensive that I want to buy. And I feel

1030
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 2: like if I had to name my account right now,

1031
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 2: it would be just in case I want to stop

1032
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:50,319
Speaker 2: working because cool too? Maybe it maybe so because right now,

1033
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 2: like we and we've talked about this, like it is,

1034
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 2: it is fun to be able to create the podcast

1035
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 2: and to do the work that we do, and I

1036
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 2: don't necessarily, I guess, have something.

1037
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,359
Speaker 1: To name it. If Joel gets canceled, I'll do that.

1038
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,280
Speaker 2: I'll do that. But okay, my big takeaway here quickly

1039
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 2: is when he was talking about that there is not

1040
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 2: a deficit of knowledge and information that's out there, but

1041
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 2: what is lacking is courage. And he said the way

1042
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 2: that we can find more courage in our lives is

1043
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 2: to focus on your strengths. Right, So he said, a

1044
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 2: strength based approach. Don't go and do the things that

1045
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 2: you're terrible at. Instead look at the things that you're

1046
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 2: really good at, and expand from there, maybe even double

1047
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:28,439
Speaker 2: down on your strengths. But then to maybe not double

1048
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 2: down though, but to be incremental and for there to

1049
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 2: be this sort of sustainable, realistic sort of growth as

1050
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:37,719
Speaker 2: opposed to doubling down or just be like I've never

1051
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:39,760
Speaker 2: run before, I'm going to do a couch to marathon

1052
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 2: or whatever, and all of a sudden it's like, oh,

1053
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 2: this is exactly how you burn out.

1054
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 1: When I was first started running, Matt and I was like,

1055
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:48,840
Speaker 1: I mean, half marathon wasn't anywhere on my radar, But

1056
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 1: even trying to run three and a half miles or

1057
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 1: something like that, I was like, ah, well, I'm not

1058
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:53,919
Speaker 1: my body's not ready for this. Truly, it wasn't ready.

1059
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:55,359
Speaker 1: And I had knee pains and stuff like that.

1060
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 2: Organs are bouncing around your body. It's uncomfortable, right.

1061
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 1: I was like, I just have to slow down and

1062
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 1: build more slowly, and that more sustainable slow build leads

1063
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,399
Speaker 1: to eventually you getting there, maybe not as quickly as

1064
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: you want, but you get to where you want to go,

1065
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 1: and it helps you avoid like quitting and throwing in

1066
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:11,479
Speaker 1: the towel.

1067
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then that allows you to run a casual

1068
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,839
Speaker 2: nine miles before coming into work, dude. Yeah, And that's

1069
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:17,839
Speaker 2: also how you earned the ability to enjoy a beer

1070
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 2: like we do on every episode. So you and I

1071
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 2: enjoyed a beach slap. This is a West Coast ipa

1072
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 2: by Brouyard Beer Co. And this one was donated to

1073
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:29,239
Speaker 2: the show bar our good buddy Joel, who does a

1074
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 2: whole lot of the heavy lifting for us here on

1075
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 2: the podcast, on the website newsletter, Yes, a lot of

1076
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 2: that content creations me Joel, the other Joel, the other Joel. Yeah,

1077
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 2: I call him jay O.

1078
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 1: I call him better Joel because I do. I truly

1079
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 1: think he's a better human than I am and love

1080
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 1: that guy. So yeah, Joel, thank you for this beer.

1081
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:48,400
Speaker 1: This was a West Coast IPA, but Matt not as

1082
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 1: abrasive as like the old school West Coast IPAs. It

1083
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:53,760
Speaker 1: definitely had like grapefruit and bitter notes, but it wasn't

1084
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,240
Speaker 1: over the top like sometimes like the West Coast IPAs

1085
00:55:56,239 --> 00:56:01,319
Speaker 1: from fifteen twenty years ago just were so abrasive and unrefined.

1086
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:02,760
Speaker 2: They're trying to be as mean as possible.

1087
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's why people I think were early

1088
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 1: on people either loved or hated IPAs. And now I

1089
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 1: think I can appreciate it West Coast ipa maybe more

1090
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 1: than I was able to when I first started drinking beer.

1091
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 2: Which is funny because this one was called Beach Slap,

1092
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:16,839
Speaker 2: so you would think that it was supposed to be

1093
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 2: a super kind of hit you over the head type

1094
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,239
Speaker 2: of beer, But it doesn't at all remind me of

1095
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 2: like Palette Wrecker, who remember like Green Flash, like some

1096
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 2: of those beers that back in the day that were

1097
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 2: I just remember those being hardly even drinkable. But this

1098
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 2: is quite enjoyable, even the kind of beer that you

1099
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 2: kick back on the beach and enjoy with a with

1100
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:32,879
Speaker 2: a good bud.

1101
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that beer I remember being a struggle to drink,

1102
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 1: and this one, it's like no, this was super enjoyable.

1103
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 1: So yeah, good, big thank you to our friend and

1104
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:43,320
Speaker 1: coworker Joel for this beer. Matt. That's going to do

1105
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 1: it for this one. We'll link to all this stuff

1106
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 1: we mentioned, including Daniel's new book up on the website

1107
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:50,560
Speaker 1: at how to money dot com. That's gonna do it

1108
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 1: for this one though. Until next time, best friends out,

1109
00:56:52,600 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 1: best friends out.

1110
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 3: The