1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Did you know a recent law can leave your personal 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: data exposed online for anybody to find. If you've turned 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: on the news lately, you know the internet has created 4 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: a dangerous new world. It's time you take back the 5 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: power by using a new website called truth Finder. Have 6 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: you been issued a speeding ticket, received a lean from 7 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: the I R S? Did you forget about embarrassing social 8 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: media profile? That info may already be online. Truth Finder 9 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: can help you find it. Truth Finder searches millions of 10 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: public records, assembling the data together in one report. Members 11 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 1: get unlimited searches, so you can also look up those 12 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: close to you and make sure they're not hiding something. 13 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 1: Visit truth finder dot com, slash Nancy, enter your own name. 14 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: Get started Crime stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM 15 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: Triumph Channel one thirty two. We all knew as part 16 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 1: of this team that we were looking for a needle 17 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: in a haystack, but we also all knew that the 18 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: needle was there. After all these years, the haunting question 19 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: of who committed these terrible crimes have been put to rest. 20 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: For the ladies who were brutally rake ms cromy Son 21 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: sleep better come like he isn't coming through the window. 22 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: He's now in jail and his history. Imagine being asleep 23 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night and you hear a bomb, 24 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: or you hear what you think is a tree limb 25 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: against the fence in the backyard. You think you hear 26 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: a footstep in hall, but then nothing, And then there 27 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: he is at your bedside in the dark, the Golden 28 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: State Killer. And if you live to tell the tell, 29 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: which so many did not, you will never forget that moment. 30 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: A man now believed to have committed at least twelve murders, 31 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:22,399 Speaker 1: at least fifty brutal rapes, and over twenty home burglaries. 32 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 1: Now we know is the Golden State Killer a former cop? 33 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 1: How many other victims are there? I mean, see, Grace, 34 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: this is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us, 35 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: and we are live at Nashville's Crime Gone. Thank everybody 36 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: being with us. You know what I feel like lapping? 37 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: I feel like celebrating right now because with me here 38 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: on the podium are survivors that lived through the Golden 39 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: State Killer's attack. What a blessing, and they are here 40 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: to testify to their surviving and give us clues that 41 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: may help some other woman where there was not DNA, 42 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: put together the pieces of the puzzle to connect her 43 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: to the Golden sticular, because I am telling you there 44 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: are more victims, murder victims and rape victims with me. 45 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: Jane Carson Sandler, the fifth victim and the author of 46 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: Frozen in Fear, a true story of surviving the Shadows 47 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: of Death. So on Amazon you can find it. I 48 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: did Jane Carson Sandler, Margaret word Law, the youngest victim 49 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: with us, Debbie Domingo McMullen, victim's advocate, daughter of Golden 50 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: Skate killer murder victim Sherry Dominga with me, Ashley Scott, 51 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: founder our child crime watch dot Com, Atlanta lawyer Renee Rockwell, 52 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: private investigator at Vincent Hill, Forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan 53 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: from Jacksona State University, and the sister of a murder 54 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:31,119 Speaker 1: victim whom I have spoken to many times. The murder 55 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: victim was Janelle Cruz, her sister Michelle with us as well. 56 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: You know, I paused right there because I'm thinking about 57 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 1: all the victims that were brutally murdered. Just think about it. 58 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 1: What if your life stopped right now? My children right 59 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: now are eating lunch the last time I saw they 60 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: were asleep. What if I wasn't there to raise them. 61 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: What if they grew up the rest of their life 62 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: missing mommy? What about the victims, parents, their husband, their children. 63 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: Just in one moment gone, this man did this thing. 64 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: And today we look for clues to piece together what 65 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: other victims there may be. As these ladies give their witness, 66 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: I want to go first to Jane Carson Sandler. Jane, 67 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: I've asked you before, and your book, which is Frozen 68 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: in Fear on Amazon, is so compelling. And I don't 69 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: know how in the world I pray to be as 70 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: good of a Christian as you are, and I am 71 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: falling way short of the mark because somehow you have 72 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: turned what happened to you into a testimony. But I 73 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: want to start at the beginning with the devil what happened. 74 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: I am a little emotional right now. Nancy is so 75 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: caring and compassionate, and and I'm crying just because of 76 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: her words and her her love for all of us. Well, 77 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: it was six thirty in the morning on the fifth 78 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: of October. N my husband had just left for work. 79 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: I heard the garage door close, and my three year 80 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: old son had just gotten in bed with me, and 81 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: within a few minutes there was a flashlight shining down 82 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: the hall and I yelled out to my husband, what 83 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: did you forget? What's going on? And it wasn't my husband. Um. 84 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: Within a minute, a man was standing over me, shining 85 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: a flashlight in my eyes, with a ski mask on, 86 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: holding a large butcher knife, with a black leather jacket, 87 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: black gloves, and black high top sneakers. At first, I thought, oh, 88 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 1: my gosh, maybe he's just here to rob us, But 89 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: it was soon after that I realized he was more 90 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: than just there to rob us. He gagged my son 91 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: and myself. How old was your son three? My son 92 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: was three years old. He blindfolded us, he gagged us, 93 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: and he tied us up, and then he moved my son. 94 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,359 Speaker 1: And that's why I named my book Frozen in Fear, 95 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: because I had no idea where he had put him 96 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: or what he had done with him. Then he uh 97 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: untied my ankles, and then I knew what he was 98 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: there for. But I don't remember the rape because my 99 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: whole attention was on where did you put my son? 100 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: And um, my heart was beating so hard it was 101 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: just coming through my chest, and the fear was just 102 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: over overwhelming. It was just I was just terrorized. So 103 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: after the rape, he proceeded to tear sheets and towels, 104 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: and it was very methodical, very slow, and I'm thinking, 105 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: oh my god, what are you going to do with 106 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: those sheets and those towels, What are you going to 107 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: do with all those strips of cloth that you have 108 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: just horn? I had no idea. Are you going to 109 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: hang us? Are you going to bound us again? I 110 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: had no idea. It was the fear, the fear of what, 111 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: of what we both went through. So um. Eventually he 112 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: I moved over and he had moved my son back 113 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: next to me, and uh, that was, oh my goodness. 114 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: I just can't tell you the feeling that I had 115 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: when I felt him. So um. He was in the 116 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: house for quite a while. He'd come back and forth 117 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: and again. When he first got there, he had said 118 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: to us with clenched teeth, shut up, you know, shut up, 119 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: or I'll kill you. Shut up or I'll kill you. 120 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: Then he kept coming back in the bedroom and warning 121 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: us if he heard anything, he would come back and 122 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: kill us. So um. He would go in the kitchen, 123 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: he'd rattle his pots and pants, and he'd come back 124 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: and check on us and then go back. It was 125 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: like he was cooking something in the in the kitchen, 126 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: which was just unbelievable. Really, you're cooking. Now You've just 127 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: raped me, and now you're cooking in the kitchen. Okay. 128 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: So um. Then after we didn't hear anything for a while, 129 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,599 Speaker 1: I was able to get my blindfold down just a 130 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: little bit and I was able to see that it 131 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: was getting light, and I looked next to me and 132 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: my son was actually asleep. Praised the Lord. He was asleep. 133 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 1: So then um, I woke him up and I said, 134 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: come on, sweetie, we gotta get out of here. We 135 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: got to get out of here. So again, it was 136 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: taking a chance. I didn't know if he was still 137 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: in the house or not. But we hobbled down the hall, 138 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: got to the front door, which was actually uh um, 139 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: he had taken a chair and propped it up under 140 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: the front door, so we couldn't get out that way, 141 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: but we did get out through the back patio. Hobbled 142 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: around to the front of the gate, yelled for a 143 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: neighbor and uh she took us into her home, called 144 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: the police, called my husband. And then soon after two 145 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: policemen showed up to interview me, and I really didn't 146 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 1: want to speak to them. But then Carol Daily, a 147 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: female detective who I've become very close to over the years, Um, 148 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: she did show up and she took me to the 149 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 1: emergency room and at that point, you know, they did 150 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 1: the rape exam. They went ahead and gave me the 151 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: shot of penicillin and Casey had a anerial disease, and 152 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: then of course gave me the morning after pill, so 153 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 1: I didn't get pregnant. So that was not a very 154 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: pleasant experience at all. But uh, you know, thanks be 155 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: to God, we're alive when we're here, and thank you 156 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: all for caring and being here. You know, I've got 157 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: so many thoughts just colliding through my head as you speak. 158 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: I couldn't even write them down fast enough to keep 159 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: up with you. And just so many things. Here are 160 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: some of the points. For instance, the first thing you 161 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: said about how you could not remember the rape. You know, 162 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: it's interesting and I've gone over this with Renee a lot. Um. 163 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: First of all, let me introduce everybody full on. Vincent 164 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: Peel is a former Tennessee p D now private investigator. 165 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: Renee Rockwell is a longtime defense attorney and dear friend 166 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: of mine that practices in the Atlanta area. Joseph Scott 167 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: Morrigan death investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State 168 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: and you've met there on the end as Ashley Wilcot. 169 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 1: She founded child crime watch dot com. Lawyer and advocate 170 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: Jane Carson Sandler wrote Frozen in Fear, Margaret word law 171 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: Michelle Cruz, Debbie Domingo McMullen. I had to say that 172 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: very slowly so I can get it all in, you know, Renee, 173 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: there's so much that when my fiancee was murdered, I 174 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 1: can't remember the facts from a couple of years before 175 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: and a couple of years after the funeral. I can 176 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: remember that the pastor kept calling me Mary during the funeral, 177 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: and just facts like that. When when something horrible happens, 178 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 1: I think in a way, God blocks some of that 179 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:04,599 Speaker 1: out so you don't remember it, Thank God. Nancy. Um 180 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 1: you're living this now with these victims as they talk 181 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: about it, and um, just the when things blackout, um uh, 182 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: that's for self provided preservation. But now now that we 183 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: have this person in custody, this is gonna all be 184 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: very important, every every single detail, because I can is this, 185 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: Every single detail matters if you do get some of 186 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: that memory, they cause it. Believe me, when a defense 187 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: attorney gets all of this case no offense, Renee, everything 188 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 1: you say and remember is going to be questioned as 189 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: a matter of fact. This is how it all broke down. 190 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,839 Speaker 1: We've been covering this for years, right, who's going to stay? Killer? 191 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: And the fact that remember she said he put the 192 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: top the chair up against the door. This is common. 193 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 1: He would use pots and pans and dishes in many 194 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: of his infantasy If a man was home, he would 195 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: tie the man up and put dishes on his back 196 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: and say, if I hear the dishes rattle, I'm gonna 197 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 1: kill everybody. So the dishes, the pots, the pans, the 198 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: cooking tells me told me that he had a background 199 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: and law enforcement. Maybe because he was clearly casing the home. 200 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: He knew when your husband left, and he knew he 201 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: wasn't coming back, or he wouldn't have stayed there so 202 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: long to cook something. So that led me to who 203 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: is in your area? Who was around you? Who would 204 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: know that? Um, what finally happened is some brilliant officer 205 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: got the DNA from way back and plugged it into 206 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: something like ancestry dot com and it got familial DNA hit. 207 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: In other words, sisters, mothers, brothers, uncle's all. They all 208 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: popped up right with this DNA. So they first go 209 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 1: to another man based on that, and then they rule 210 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: them out. Then they get to the Golden State killer 211 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: and he said, oh, I'm sorry, I'm I've got a 212 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:21,479 Speaker 1: roast in the oven. Like he couldn't go well, okay, 213 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: he's in jail and right now, as of today, he 214 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: is challenging their use of whatever website they used, like 215 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: ancestry dot com, saying it's unconstitutional and if that gets 216 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: ruled out, we're in trouble. We're in trouble. I don't 217 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: think it's going to get ruled out. Why, because the 218 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: constitution protects us from police getting into our business without 219 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: a warrant. When you mail off your DNA two in 220 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: the mail, that's your problem, okay, so the constitution doesn't 221 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: protect you from that. I don't think there's gonna be 222 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: a legal issue, but they're fighting it right now. I'm 223 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: gonna take questions and ideas out here, but I want 224 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: to hear from all of our ladies. I want to 225 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: go now to the shell cruise. Janelle's sister, Hi, gosh, 226 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: this is really really emotional listening to Jane and Fancy. 227 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: Whenever I hear any of the victims of the family 228 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: is like, it really emotional. But um, Janelle was my 229 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: sister eighteen years old and I was seventeen and I 230 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: was in mam As skiing when I got a phone 231 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: call from a friend who said, I think you need 232 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: to sit down. And I said why and she said, um, 233 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: your sister has been murdered. And I said, my sister 234 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: got married and she said, no, murdered. And for the 235 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: next twenty years, I don't I don't remember, so um 236 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: what happened. I was just living in a bubble, kind 237 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: of like deb Wiez was. We just tried to live 238 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: our life and go on. Our family didn't talk about it, 239 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: and it wasn't until about ten years ago that I 240 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: started getting more into the case. And then two years 241 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: ago when I started really coming out and showing my face. Um, 242 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: just to try and move this case to the forefront 243 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: so people away. You said something interesting. Our family did 244 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: talk about it. Oh, how I love to blame things 245 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: on my parents if I can. But really, you know what, 246 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: I don't like. I do it when I have to, 247 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: but I don't like talking about my fiancee's murder. I 248 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: don't like it. It hurts my feelings, it gets me upset. 249 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: I can't eat, just I feel awful. And my twins 250 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: don't deserve a mother like that. So the fact that 251 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: maybe your parents didn't talk about or your family didn't 252 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: talk about that could be for a lot of reasons. 253 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: Said they just I don't want to talk about it. 254 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: It's like reliving it all over. It was. It was 255 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: very emotional. We It caused arguments and then just a 256 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: lot of crazy emotions cause ours because you know, one, 257 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: I was doing things to speak out, and then my 258 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: mom didn't want me to do that because um, the 259 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: Golden State killer was still out there and she was 260 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: afraid that I was jeopardizing our family, and um, just 261 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: a lot of mixed emotions and we're you know, I 262 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: didn't like when she brought it up in front of 263 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: people when we were at in a you know, some 264 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: kind of a social thing, because it got really upsetting 265 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: and we'd cry and it just kind of dampered everything. 266 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,880 Speaker 1: You know, so there's a lot of emotions, a lot 267 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: of really really crazy emotions. How was Gell killed? What happened? Um, 268 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 1: she was home by herself. My parents had just my 269 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: mom and my stepfather and my brother had just left 270 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: for Cancoon the day before, and that night she had 271 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: some friends over and they heard noises. Janelle was on 272 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 1: the phone and her friends that were over, they went 273 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: outside and ran into the backyard where her the noises, 274 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: but they didn't see anything. So they all came back 275 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: in and just we're hanging out and the next stage 276 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: and Alle gone to work. And Um, she had some 277 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: friends over during the day and in the evening time, 278 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 1: she didn't want to stay by herself. She was nervous, 279 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 1: probably because of the noises the night before, and so 280 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: she had some friends over and they heard some more 281 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: noises in the backyard and she disregarded it as maybe 282 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: a cat or something, and she shut the shutters and 283 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: then about her friend that she had there left and 284 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: she also left. They just left in different cars, and 285 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 1: fifteen minutes later, which was eleven pm, she came home 286 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: because somebody heard her car pull up. And I know 287 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: she had a phone call at midnight and she did 288 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: not answer that phone call. So it sometime when she 289 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 1: come back home that he attacked her. I guess how 290 00:18:55,240 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: was her body found and what was the motive death? Um? 291 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 1: We our house was listed for sale and a realtor 292 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: was showing the property, and she had gone and went 293 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: into the bedroom and saw my sister on the bed 294 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: and the blankets were covered over her face and and 295 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: you know the rest of the rest of her body 296 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: was uncovered up. And so that realtor called our broker, 297 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 1: and then our broker immediately came and they called the police, 298 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: and the police came. And I bet this guy, the 299 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: Golden State Killer, went back and watched because we know 300 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: he later would call the victims and taught them on 301 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 1: the phone, right, isn't that right? At say, Jane, what 302 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: do you recall if anything? When he would call afterwards, 303 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: I could just he would just call and then just 304 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: hang on the phone, and I knew it was him, 305 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: Thank thank goodness. He didn't, you know, say to me, 306 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to come back and kill you, or you know, 307 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: do you remember me? No, he just breathed, and I 308 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 1: knew it was him. But that was enough to cause 309 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: so much fear again, just getting over and that is 310 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 1: an insight into who he is. It's like going back 311 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,360 Speaker 1: to the scene. Remember Scott Peterson kept going back and 312 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 1: looking out in the San Francisco Bay because the issue 313 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: was there. Like calling the victim Matt and you just 314 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: listen and then hang up. That says something about this psyche. Yeah, 315 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: it does, Nancy. And one of the things that you 316 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 1: have to keep in mind is they value trophies. Uh. 317 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: And these trophies can actually be and I'm talking about 318 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: in serialized events. They can put a specific value on 319 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: even just reminiscing. If you go back and even look 320 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: at like b t K. He'd go and disinter bodies 321 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 1: many times and lay down in the graves and then 322 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 1: re enter the body. So they have this desire, they 323 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,719 Speaker 1: have this desire to engage, and a lot of it 324 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: goes back, I think, to power to a great degree, 325 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: having power and control. I mean, why the world would 326 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 1: you go and victimize somebody like that? Well, think out 327 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: at Joseph Scott. This guy have been a cop. And 328 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: I'm usually on the cop side. Yes, I know they're 329 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: bad cops and I hate them and I want them 330 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: to go down. But this guy, I think wanted to 331 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: be a cop and not one but tea jurisdictions. Scott 332 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: fired at one because he wanted the power and the control, 333 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: and now we see that playing out on the victims. 334 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: Did you know about a recent law that could leave 335 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: your personal data exposed online for anybody to find? 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Truth Finder searches through millions of public records, 346 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: puts all that data together and one easy to read report. 347 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,719 Speaker 1: Members get unlimited searches, so you can also look up 348 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: those close to you and make sure they're not hiding 349 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: something from their past. You also get free Dart web 350 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: monitoring to make truth Finder the ultimate tool in identity protection. 351 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: If your personal info appears for sale on the dart web. 352 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: You'll be the first to know. Visit truth finder dot 353 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: com slash Nancy, enter your own name get started. I 354 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 1: want you to hear from Margaret Ward Life. Hello everyone, 355 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here. And um, I'm 356 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 1: really glad that I could be here to see everyone 357 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 1: and be able to tell my story. I do want 358 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: to add Nancy that from my understanding, law enforcement said 359 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: that he covered their heads because he realized that being 360 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: people you know about the head was going to leave 361 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,360 Speaker 1: blood splatter on him. And they speculate that he may 362 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: have covered people up that way because when he beat them, 363 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: oftentimes he would beat the upper part of their body. 364 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: You're right, he wouldn't get splatter on himself, so that 365 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: way he wouldn't be covered with blood. And he really 366 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: I guess he really really really just another clue that 367 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 1: his law enforcement. Yeah, so, UM, my story is very different. Um. 368 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: I was thirteen years old living in Sacramento. This guy 369 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: was a prolific rapist, serial rapist, and I was absolutely 370 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: fascinated with the story. I was reading the newspaper every 371 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: time there was an attack, every time a profiler wrote 372 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: something about this guy. When you were thirteen, you were 373 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: obsessed with. When I was darting, I was still riding 374 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: a bike. Didn't know where babies came from. Wow, I 375 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, the whole was a buzz. So 376 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: it wasn't just me that was interested in this whole thing. Um, 377 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: you know, the whole town was just on edge because 378 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 1: we had this serial rapist that was attacking in Sacramento. 379 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: So my mother was fifty five and I was thirteen, 380 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: and my mother always said, well, I'm too old and 381 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 1: you're too young. We would never be victims of this 382 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: this perpetrator. And in addition to that, he had already 383 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: started going into the homes where there's a man, um 384 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 1: a husband and a wife. We had a newspaper article, 385 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 1: I guess it came out and said, well he's only 386 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: attacking his single women, and so you know, he obviously 387 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: read that, and the next attack involved a husband and wife, 388 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: and uh so you know, he just up the anti 389 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: each and every time there was a town hall meeting 390 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: where somebody stood up, a gentleman stood up and said, 391 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: there's no way in a million years a guy's coming 392 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: into my house with a gun. He's gonna tie me 393 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 1: up and rape my wife. Well, guess what That same 394 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: man two months later had this guy show up at 395 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: his house and tie him up and as he did, 396 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 1: rape his wife. So he was there at the town 397 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: hall meeting, must have followed him home. This guy was 398 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: just gutsy. So anyway, I was fascinated. I read everything 399 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: there was to read. I understood, not know that. Yeah 400 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: it was. I mean, it's so he was at the 401 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: town hall. Made coincidence, guys, No, it's scary. It was 402 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: not a coincidence. I'm sure. Uh So, reading everything I 403 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: had read, I understood he really got off on frightening 404 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: his victims and putting the fear in them, and by 405 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: putting that fear in them, he was able to control 406 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: his victims. And it was very evident to me by 407 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: reading everything I had read that this is what this 408 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 1: guy wanted. He wanted control through fear. So, um, it 409 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 1: was a school night. I went to bed at a 410 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: normal hour, um, and I was awoken about two thirty 411 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: in the morning with his flashlight in my face and 412 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: this guy telling me turn over, I'm going to tie 413 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: you up. And initially I just refuse because I thought 414 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 1: it was our neighbor. We had had dinner with the 415 00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: night before, and I just thought he had my m 416 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: and employed him to come over and wake me up 417 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: as a joke for school. And he had these leather 418 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: gloves on, and so I refused a couple of times, 419 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: and then finally I went along with it. He got 420 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 1: a little bit more um forceful and instructing, instructing me 421 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 1: to turn over and letting him tie me up. So 422 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: once I was tied up, he walked out of the 423 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 1: room and I looked over the clock radio and it's 424 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: like two thirty in the morning, and I realized, you know, 425 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: very quickly that this is not my neighbor. This is 426 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: most likely the East Ara rapist. So um. He proceeded 427 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 1: to go on upstairs. Our house was really different because 428 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: we had a kitchen and living room, driving room upstairs. 429 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: Because we lived right on the American River and you 430 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: could look look over the levee and see the trees 431 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 1: and you could see the river. It was a beautiful 432 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: place to be. But I could hear him coming downstairs 433 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: with those plates, and and you could hear him coming 434 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: downstairs with the plights. Yeah, the plates were very indicative 435 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: of his emo. He would always put the plates on 436 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: like typically the back of a man and say, if 437 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: I hear these plates rattle, I'm gonna come back. I'm 438 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 1: gonna kill your wife. Come back and I'm gonna kill you. 439 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: So that was always a threat. So, um, I heard 440 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: him coming down the stairs with the plates, and I 441 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: heard the plates rattling, and I realized, well, if he 442 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: comes into my my room, he's gonna rape my mom. 443 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: Did you know about the plights? Of course the pants 444 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 1: at the time it was happening, you had read about it. Absolutely. 445 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: I read every single thing I could give my can 446 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: and even imagine laying there and hearing the plights, well, 447 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: I just realized that he was going to rape one 448 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: of us most likely, and whomever's room he went into, 449 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: the other person was going to be raped. So I 450 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: heard him go into my mom's room, and I just 451 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 1: had a calming voice within me just said, you know, um, 452 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: just this is what's gonna happen. You're gonna be raped, 453 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: but you're gonna get through it. You're gonna be okay. 454 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: And I knew he hadn't killed anyone, he hadn't heard 455 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 1: anyone yet, and I knew, like I'm talking right now, 456 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: he was not going to kill anyone. He wasn't gonna 457 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 1: hurt anyone that night, even though he was threatening it continually. 458 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: And so, um, I heard him going to my mom's room, 459 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: and I just prepared myself. I just remained very calm, 460 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: and um, you know, I have to say, I don't 461 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: know where it came from, but for some reason, I 462 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: just I realized I had to maintain just not being afraid. 463 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: So he made a lot of threats. He did it 464 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: in a very harsh whisper. He'd asked me, do you 465 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: want me to kill your mother? Do you want me 466 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: to kill you? And I simply replied, I don't care. 467 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: It was the best thing I could think of to 468 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 1: let him know I'm not affected by you, You're not 469 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: frightening me. And I just knew in my mind I 470 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: had to just show this guy no fear because that's 471 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: what he wanted. And I was damned if I was 472 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: going to give that to him. So, UM, we're what 473 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: what did your mom say? Well, my mom was deeply 474 00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: affected by the attack. Um, you know she was once once. 475 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: You know, he had this tendency to come in the 476 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: room and then leave the room, so you never knew 477 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: when he was really gone, right, So, and he go upstairs. 478 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: He turned on the water and he turned on our 479 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,959 Speaker 1: you know, our exhaust fan at the stoves, so there 480 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: was an ambient sound going on. So I believe he 481 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,719 Speaker 1: left through the front door. He came in through an 482 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: upstairs um slid sliding glass door off a deck. So, 483 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: I mean, this guy was extremely agile. He was like, uh, 484 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: super track track athlete. You know, he was jumping fences. 485 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: He was just notorious for getting away and getting into 486 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: places where you just don't know how he got in there. 487 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: So I'm sure he left out the front door. My 488 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: mom started screaming. The neighbor came over. Um. Once my 489 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: mom thought that he was gone, um, and the neighbor 490 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: came over with a shotgun. The neighbor's wife and tied me, 491 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: and then we waited for the police to come. And 492 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: my mom really thought it was a copycat, and I said, no, 493 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think this was This was 494 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 1: the guy. And my brother says, he came as quickly 495 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: as he could from work, and he got out of 496 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: his car and I met him outside and I said 497 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: to him, Jim, what are you doing here? Aren't you 498 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: supposed to be at work. I don't remember seeing that, 499 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: but my brother has a very vivid memory of me 500 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: just being cool as a cucumber. It's just the thought 501 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: of a teen girl having to undergo a rape kit 502 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: and then all those years go by and it is 503 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: never resolved. I'm going to come back to each of 504 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: you and ask how you felt when you heard there 505 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: had been an arrest. Debate Domingo McMullen is with me, 506 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: the daughter our murder victim, Sherry Domingo, thank you for 507 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: being with us, Thanks for having us on. It's just 508 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: really really heartwarming to have this opportunity to share our stories. 509 00:30:53,760 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: So we're grateful. Um In Um I was fifteen years old. UM. 510 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: My parents had divorced a few years earlier. My dad 511 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: had already remarried, so I had a stepmom and stepbrothers 512 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: and my own brother. Uh. I had two households that 513 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: I lived in, and most of the time I lived 514 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: with just my mom. It was just her and me, 515 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: and sometimes I would go to my dad's and i'd 516 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: come back and Uh. The summer of um, mom and 517 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,959 Speaker 1: I had been had been arguing quite a bit. I 518 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: was just coming into that that rebellious teenager. I don't 519 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: want to follow a curfew. I need to be able 520 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: to talk on the phone. All I want is no 521 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: matter how much it costs, And I can smoke cigarettes 522 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: and I can do whatever I want kind of thing. 523 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: And and my mom had always been um very we 524 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: were very very close. We she was she was a nurturer. 525 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: She and I were almost more like like sisters than 526 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: mother and daughter. Would be out in public, she had 527 00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: me when when she was was very young. She was 528 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: any when I was born. And so we'd be out 529 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: in public and we'd be in in a restaurant somewhere. 530 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: She'd order a glass of wine and they would ask 531 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: for her I d and I'd be like, dude, that's 532 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: my mom. What are you doing? So, you know, we'd 533 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: be shopping for clothes and I say hey mom, and 534 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: everybody would just look because anyway, um, but we've been 535 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: we've been arguing that summer, and and at one point 536 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: we just had this knockdown, drag out, just screaming at 537 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: each other, and and and I said, well, I don't 538 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: have to live with these rules anymore. And I threw 539 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: some clothes into a backpack, and I hopped on my 540 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: tent speed bicycle and and I took off and I 541 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: went to a girlfriend's house and stayed on their couch 542 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: for a couple of days, and when when her parents 543 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: got sick of me, I went to another friend's house 544 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: and I kind of bounced around for about three weeks. 545 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: And during that time Mom and I had we talked 546 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: on the phone every once in a while. We had 547 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: a went to a team runaway shelter kind of a 548 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: place and they said, okay, well you can stay here, 549 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: but you have to participate in counseling. So we had 550 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: the beginning of a counseling session that almost immediately as 551 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: soon as we were in the same room, we were 552 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: screaming at each other again. So it was just it 553 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: was just this round and round kind of a thing. 554 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 1: But I just want to side with your mother because 555 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: if I call it Lucy Lanch with a cigarette to 556 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: her lips, I would do a back flip Ninja style. Okay, 557 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: get that out of her mouth. It's not just going 558 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 1: on the record. I'm with your mom on this. Sorry, Okay, 559 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: go ahead, Well don't you don't have to apologize for that, 560 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: because now I am a mother and a grandmother and yeah, 561 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: it's and you know, she was just doing her best 562 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: to be a good mom. She really was. Oh, man's 563 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: starting already. I'm sorry. Um yeah, anyway, UM, I'm good, 564 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: thank you. UM. Monday July, I was at the home 565 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: of a girlfriend and her brother called and said, hey, uh, 566 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: some lady is looking for Debbie. Is she there at 567 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: the house with you? And and I was, and he said, well, 568 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: she's supposed to call this woman. This was my mom's 569 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: best friend, who also happened to be a neighbor. And 570 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: I thought, well, I'm not calling her back. She's just 571 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: going to try and convince me to come home. She's 572 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 1: just gonna try and get us to smooth things over. 573 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 1: So I said, no, I'm not coming home. And she said, no, Debbie, 574 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: you have to come home. And I said, no, I'm done. 575 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: There's nothing you can say. I'm done. I was a kid. 576 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: I didn't know what I was doing. But she got 577 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: real quiet and real serious and she said, Debbie, you 578 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 1: don't understand. Something's happened and it's important and you have 579 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: to come home. And when I did that, of course, 580 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 1: I had a friend drive me home. M and we 581 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: lived in the caul de Sac. We were the second 582 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: house in on the left hand side, and we pulled 583 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: up and the the first thing that struck me was 584 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: the yellow tape. It was everywhere. It was all the 585 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: way around the house, it was around the end of 586 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: the caul de sac. There were police cars, there were 587 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: news cameras, there were neighbors standing around looking and whispering 588 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: and trying to figure out what was going on. And 589 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: I got out of the car and I started to 590 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: make up bee line for the house, and my mom's 591 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: best friend came immediately and put her arm around me 592 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: and tried to shield me from everything that was about 593 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: to happen. And I looked at the house and I 594 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 1: could see my mom's car in the driveway, and I 595 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: could see her boyfriend, Greg's car parked at the curb 596 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 1: in front of the house. And immediately, I think, you know, 597 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: I knew something with something bad was going on. You 598 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: see yellow tape. There's no question that something's wrong. But 599 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: I saw Gregg's car, and my mom and Greg had 600 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: dated off and on for the better part of four years. 601 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: Um I was very close to Greg, and I loved Greg, 602 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: and he was so good to us. He was part 603 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: of the family. And I saw Greg's car and immediately 604 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 1: I just felt hope because I thought, oh, if Greg's here, 605 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,919 Speaker 1: he'll make it better. And so I started asking, where's Greg. 606 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:38,240 Speaker 1: I want to see Greg. And and this was early 607 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: enough in the investigation that identifications hadn't been made yet. 608 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 1: So as soon as I said where's Greg, all the 609 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 1: cops started saying, Greg, who who are you looking for? 610 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: What are you talking about? And I said, that car 611 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: right there, Greg Sanchez. I want to see Greg. So anyway, 612 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: the short version, eventually they got me into my mom's 613 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 1: best friends house and sat me down, and they said 614 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 1: that there were two bodies found in our house and 615 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,240 Speaker 1: that they believed that my mother was one of them. 616 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: And of course, you know, Margaret could relate this little 617 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,959 Speaker 1: smart at like attitude. In my head, I'm thinking, well, 618 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: one of them is my mom? Who else would you know? 619 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: I just I just I was. I was feisty, and 620 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: I didn't want to I didn't want to believe what 621 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: they were saying to me. Um. And then the next 622 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 1: several days, obviously I had to. I called my dad 623 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 1: and he drove several hundred miles to come be at 624 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: my side and get me through that. And then we 625 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: spent the next couple of days of of questions and answers, 626 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,879 Speaker 1: and and did your mom have any enemies? And did 627 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: she do drugs? Were their drugs in the house that 628 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: somebody could have broken in to try and find and 629 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: and and and they grilled my dad. You know when somebody, 630 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,839 Speaker 1: when somebody gets killed, you look at the X, right. 631 00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 1: So they took my poor father into that room with 632 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:06,359 Speaker 1: the blood spatter and interrogated him for hours. Unfortunately, he 633 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,800 Speaker 1: had a rock solid alibi that put him several hundred 634 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: miles away. But Um, but that that ordeal, that first 635 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 1: couple of days, it was obvious to me that they 636 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: were really grasping at straws that they didn't have a 637 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 1: clue who had broken into this home, broke in the window, 638 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:29,319 Speaker 1: reached into the door, knob stepped into the master bathroom, um, 639 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: waited for my mom and Gregg to fall asleep, and 640 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,479 Speaker 1: then surprised them in that bedroom and beating them both 641 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 1: to death. That's hill. Are you hearing all of the 642 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:49,280 Speaker 1: times that the perpetritor is touching things, is leaving behind 643 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,840 Speaker 1: we would think d NA or PRINCE or evidence of 644 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 1: some sort. Yeah, we would think that, Nancy. But I 645 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,800 Speaker 1: think it's clear he did everything he good to disguise 646 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: who he was, gloves mask, even disguising his voice, which 647 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 1: couldn't be used in a lineup later for voice recognition. 648 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 1: You know, back in two thousand, I was living in 649 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: California with max wife and something came on about the 650 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 1: night stalker and I told her, I said, this guy 651 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: is a police officer. He was a police officer, because 652 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: I can remember, ever since I was a little kid, 653 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: I wanted to be a police officer. And I remember 654 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: in six DNA was used for the very first time 655 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: in court in England, and if you think back in 656 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 1: six this all stopped. So that told me this guy 657 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: knows exactly what's going on. He knows that he's been 658 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,720 Speaker 1: leaving something behind to tie back to him. So he says, 659 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: I need to bow out with gracefully and hope they 660 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: never catch me. I can't remember when we when I 661 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 1: first started trying case his felonies, we didn't have DNA 662 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: and we would prove rape cases by blood. And now 663 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: all we have was like, the prop isn't Type A, 664 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: and you're a Type A along with about twenty million 665 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 1: other people are a Type A. And I mean we 666 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,879 Speaker 1: have anything we couldn't identify, hair, you could only say 667 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 1: if hair was Caucasian, Hispanic or ma um African American. 668 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: There was really no way to use that kind of 669 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: forensics to make a rape case. That is really interesting 670 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,319 Speaker 1: that once and I remember my first DNA case, deoxyribony 671 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: claic acid. But that's really interesting that it quit at 672 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 1: the time DNAs made its advent into court. Let me 673 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:48,279 Speaker 1: go to Jane, all these years that you waited, did 674 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 1: you relive it? Did you have dreams about it? Did 675 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 1: you think about it? Considerate? And what did you do 676 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 1: when you heard there had been an arrest? Well, for 677 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 1: the last forty two years years, every night before I 678 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,759 Speaker 1: went to bed, I would say, Dear God, please don't 679 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 1: let me dream anything about the rape or the rapist. 680 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,279 Speaker 1: And God answered my prayers because I never did. I 681 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: never did. And Uh, last week ago Wednesday, I guess 682 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: it was April. My husband and I were in Wilson, 683 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:28,359 Speaker 1: North Carolina. We had just um returned from Germany and 684 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,400 Speaker 1: the next morning my phone hadn't been working the day prior. 685 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 1: So the next morning when I turned on my my 686 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,720 Speaker 1: cell phone, there was a message there from Larry Crompton 687 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: and he said, Hey, I guess you've heard by now 688 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: they got him. So my husband, Roger and I we 689 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 1: cried and we we sobbed, and we laughed, and we 690 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 1: jumped up and down and just could not could not 691 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,879 Speaker 1: believe it. And I've I've said before, I think we 692 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:56,960 Speaker 1: we could have woken up the hotel. We were just 693 00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 1: so joyous. So then, um, then I instead of calling Larry, 694 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 1: I called Carol Daly, who was awake, and she was 695 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,960 Speaker 1: the again the detective, my angel that took me to 696 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 1: the emergency room. And Carol said, yes, Jane, she said, 697 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,240 Speaker 1: we have him. He's behind bars and Sacramento. So wow. 698 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: I still can't get in my head around it. It's 699 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: just so grateful to all the media, all the podcasters, 700 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,799 Speaker 1: just everyone, all the detectives that have worked so hard 701 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:25,960 Speaker 1: on this case. And they've never given up. They've never 702 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 1: let up because everyone up here we've all believed that 703 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 1: he's you know, that one day he would be caught. 704 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 1: We've never given up. Hope. Margaret, I want to hear 705 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: after the incident what you went through and your response 706 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:47,839 Speaker 1: when you discovered that he had been apprehended. Um. Well, 707 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I consider myself being really fortunate that I 708 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:56,279 Speaker 1: just didn't have like that um feeling of being victimized 709 00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: so much. I mean, I think the whole town was victimized, 710 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: you know. So for me, I carried on and I 711 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,360 Speaker 1: was just tough. I was a tough little girl. I 712 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: knew it wasn't something that I did wrong. This was 713 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 1: a bad person that perpetrated an evil deed upon me, 714 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,240 Speaker 1: and that wasn't mine to own. That was on him. 715 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: And I never ever looked back. I just continued on, 716 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: and Um, I was just tough. I always felt like 717 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:20,680 Speaker 1: I got the better of him by just telling him 718 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,680 Speaker 1: I don't care and not showing fear. That was always 719 00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:25,839 Speaker 1: in the back of my mind, always that she found 720 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,439 Speaker 1: out about the arrest. I got a phone call. Um, 721 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 1: I was in San Diego and I got a phone call. 722 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: I got My phone was ringing off the hook and 723 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 1: it was in my person. My husband says, you better 724 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,239 Speaker 1: go to answer the phone. I thought, okay. Eventually I 725 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 1: went and looked at the number. It was a nine 726 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:43,600 Speaker 1: one six number, which is a Sacramento area code. So 727 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 1: the detective says, I'm a retired Sacramento sheriff and you 728 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,319 Speaker 1: don't know me, but I grew up four doors down 729 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,200 Speaker 1: from your family and I've always felt a personal connection 730 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 1: to your family and to you, and I know this 731 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 1: case inside out, and I just want to be the 732 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,479 Speaker 1: one to tell you. He is in Sacramento County Jail 733 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,600 Speaker 1: this evening. We got him about five pm. And you 734 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:07,240 Speaker 1: can't tell a soul. And that's hard for me because 735 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,160 Speaker 1: my husband says, he goes in here and it comes 736 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:15,799 Speaker 1: right at so oh gosh. Um. Somebody had emailed me 737 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,719 Speaker 1: and said, um, there's a rumor going on that that 738 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: the Golden State killer has been cut and is that true? 739 00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 1: And I hadn't heard anything, but I didn't reply to 740 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,239 Speaker 1: that that message. I just got on my phone and 741 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,520 Speaker 1: I sent a text message to Erica Hetchcraft, who is 742 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:33,960 Speaker 1: the detective that I've worked with for the last ten years, 743 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,719 Speaker 1: who am very very close with, and I said, um, 744 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,239 Speaker 1: I said, there was a rumor. Is there any good 745 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,840 Speaker 1: news you want to tell me? And she said yes, 746 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 1: And I said how good? And she said very good. 747 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 1: And she said, I'm on a plane right now, I 748 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 1: can't talk to you, but I will call you back 749 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 1: as soon as I can. And I just put my 750 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,759 Speaker 1: hands on my face and I just I just I 751 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,279 Speaker 1: started crying. I couldn't believe that I Okay, this is 752 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,239 Speaker 1: it is really true. It was processing. And then the 753 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,279 Speaker 1: next day I drove to see my mom and I 754 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,440 Speaker 1: took my kids with me, and Erica Hedgecot talked to 755 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,239 Speaker 1: her just before and she says, I want to talk 756 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 1: to your mom. I want to, you know, tell her 757 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 1: so because she had worked so hard for the last 758 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,200 Speaker 1: ten years, I couldn't tell my mom anything. I waited 759 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 1: until ten o'clock in the morning and we had a 760 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,240 Speaker 1: speaker call and Erica told my mom what had happened. 761 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,840 Speaker 1: And my mom was in shock and very happy and 762 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:35,400 Speaker 1: emotional and mad and just everything all the same time. 763 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 1: And that's it. And but really I just I probably 764 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:45,440 Speaker 1: cried for hours, and I didn't sleep and called everybody 765 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,439 Speaker 1: that I could that was close to me. And it 766 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:54,920 Speaker 1: was just a really good, good, good moment. Debbie mhm uh. 767 00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:00,640 Speaker 1: On Tuesday evening, I was in my Rick kleiner with 768 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,799 Speaker 1: my laptop in my lap, which is someplace I don't 769 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,080 Speaker 1: I don't go very often. No, I'm kidding. I spend 770 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:14,400 Speaker 1: almost all I spent almost all my waking hours, um uh. 771 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:19,120 Speaker 1: I have spent almost every waking hour trying to publicize 772 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,359 Speaker 1: this case and on the hunt for this guy. And 773 00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,959 Speaker 1: you know, Facebook and Twitter and YouTube and and and 774 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 1: all the the the forums out there with the with 775 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,239 Speaker 1: the people like yourselves who take interest. And so I'm 776 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,320 Speaker 1: in my living room and I'm at the laptop and 777 00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:39,600 Speaker 1: and and I got a couple of just random messages 778 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,040 Speaker 1: from people I know from from the boards and that 779 00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:45,279 Speaker 1: kind of thing. And and the first one said something like, hey, 780 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,520 Speaker 1: I heard there's been an arrest. Do you know anything? 781 00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:51,799 Speaker 1: And I answered back and I said, no, I don't 782 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,600 Speaker 1: know anything. What do you know? And then the next 783 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,520 Speaker 1: message I got said I heard he's been arrested. Is 784 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,799 Speaker 1: that true? And I'm like, I don't know what. You're 785 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,000 Speaker 1: online from friends sort of. So I'm here, I'm hearing 786 00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:06,839 Speaker 1: these rumors, and I'm and I'm looking and I'm trying 787 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:08,319 Speaker 1: to find you know, I'm looking at the news. I'm 788 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,440 Speaker 1: trying to find stuff. And then my phone rings and 789 00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 1: it's Margaret Wardlow and she's okay, and she was sworn 790 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:23,239 Speaker 1: to secrecy, right, don't don't tell anybody, Margaret, but she 791 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,359 Speaker 1: loves me. And I answered the phone and she says, 792 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:27,719 Speaker 1: and she's like she's like a little kid. She's all 793 00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:29,520 Speaker 1: excited Debbie, Debbie, they got him, they got him, they 794 00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: got him. And I'm like, what are you talking about? 795 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,680 Speaker 1: And she says, I got this call for engine everything. 796 00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:37,560 Speaker 1: She just said, she got the call from the guy 797 00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: and and and I'm like, I said, Margaret, that doesn't 798 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,160 Speaker 1: sound like an official source to me. I I don't 799 00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,640 Speaker 1: know about this, And she says, well, who should I 800 00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:51,360 Speaker 1: call next? Said for keeping this secred I have to 801 00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,759 Speaker 1: ask you something, Danny um. In all the years that 802 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,719 Speaker 1: your mom has been gone, do you feel that you've 803 00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:01,200 Speaker 1: ever heard from her or as she tried to reach 804 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:07,359 Speaker 1: you in any way? Uh? Specifically not. No, not. There 805 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,120 Speaker 1: are a lot of people who feel like they've got 806 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,359 Speaker 1: love going to communicate with them, and I don't. I've 807 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 1: never had anything like that happened. I have over the years. 808 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,279 Speaker 1: I've I've made peace with how we left our relationship. 809 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,120 Speaker 1: I my last words to her over a pay phone. 810 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,719 Speaker 1: I just screamed at her and said you need to 811 00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:27,600 Speaker 1: just stay out of my life. And I slammed the 812 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,880 Speaker 1: phone down. And twenty four hours later, that's when I 813 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,319 Speaker 1: found out that the bodies were found. So um so 814 00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,640 Speaker 1: that you know that that lingered for a long time. 815 00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,279 Speaker 1: But I've I have made made peace with that, and 816 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,640 Speaker 1: I know that she loved me, and she knows that 817 00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:46,279 Speaker 1: I loved her, and uh, there's no there are no 818 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:50,280 Speaker 1: doubts there right now, the Gulden State Killer. I believe 819 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:54,880 Speaker 1: the Gulden State killer is behind bars, connected to twelve murders, 820 00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,799 Speaker 1: home burglaries, likely fifty rights. I predict there will be 821 00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:03,359 Speaker 1: more or but there is a battle going right now 822 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,600 Speaker 1: to exclude the DNA evidence. And if that happens under 823 00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,759 Speaker 1: the doctrine of the fruit of the poisonous tree, those 824 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,160 Speaker 1: cases will be dropped. So the fight for justice goes on. 825 00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:21,920 Speaker 1: Fancy Grace crime stories signing up. H m HM