WEBVTT - Sonny Rollins 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:23.396 Pushkin. Hey everyone, Today we're continuing our celebration of Black 0:00:23.476 --> 0:00:27.876 Music Month with one of my all time favorites, jazz legend, 0:00:28.036 --> 0:00:33.276 Sonny Rollins. Rollins is dubbed the Saxophone Colossus. He's an 0:00:33.276 --> 0:00:37.156 American tenor and composer who was widely regarded as one 0:00:37.156 --> 0:00:41.556 of the most influential jazz musicians ever, with several awards 0:00:41.636 --> 0:00:44.756 under his belt, a Grammy Award for Lifetime Achievement in 0:00:44.796 --> 0:00:47.636 the National Medal of Arts to name a few. Some 0:00:47.756 --> 0:00:52.516 even venture to call him the greatest living improviser. Sadly, now, 0:00:52.596 --> 0:00:55.556 at ninety one years old, Rollins no longer plays as 0:00:55.556 --> 0:00:58.996 a result of pulmonary fibrosis, but he is able to 0:00:59.036 --> 0:01:01.556 look back at an eight decade career that took him 0:01:01.636 --> 0:01:04.156 all the way from the beginnings of bebop to playing 0:01:04.196 --> 0:01:07.996 with the Rolling Stones and all over the world. On 0:01:07.996 --> 0:01:11.036 today's episode, I spoke to Sonny Rollins by phone about 0:01:11.076 --> 0:01:13.596 one of his first big gigs at eighteen way back 0:01:13.636 --> 0:01:17.316 in nineteen forty nine, playing alongside other jazz icons like 0:01:17.396 --> 0:01:21.196 Bud Powell and Fats Navarro. He also explains why he 0:01:21.236 --> 0:01:24.396 no longer actively listens to music, and for the first 0:01:24.396 --> 0:01:31.276 time ever, how Charlie Parker is the reason he kicked drugs. 0:01:31.876 --> 0:01:35.156 This is broken record Liner notes to the digital age. 0:01:35.316 --> 0:01:39.196 I'm justin Mitchman. Here's my phone conversation with the great 0:01:39.676 --> 0:01:43.036 Sonny Rollins. I want to talk about early in your career. 0:01:43.076 --> 0:01:46.116 You were eighteen years old in nineteen forty nine. That 0:01:46.196 --> 0:01:49.636 was your first professional date and the first that I 0:01:49.676 --> 0:01:53.716 can figure was with Babs Gonzales on Saint Louis Blues. 0:01:53.316 --> 0:01:55.076 That does that seem true? 0:01:55.996 --> 0:02:02.996 I know that I had began recording in I've laid foties, 0:02:04.076 --> 0:02:07.556 so I would imagine that it might be true. I 0:02:07.596 --> 0:02:09.596 can't verify exactly. 0:02:10.036 --> 0:02:12.236 Do you remember Babs Gonzales pretty well? 0:02:12.716 --> 0:02:18.836 Oh? Sure? Very dish is like a character you. Yeah, 0:02:18.836 --> 0:02:23.956 I remember Mads very well. Babs. I liked my playing 0:02:23.996 --> 0:02:28.356 a lot, and I used to make some of these 0:02:29.116 --> 0:02:33.196 gigs that dads Gonzales had pole up a lot of 0:02:33.316 --> 0:02:36.996 resists in the car and we go down to Philly, 0:02:37.916 --> 0:02:43.996 or we go up to Boston or president an immediate area, 0:02:44.196 --> 0:02:48.596 and hey, so I got a chance to play with 0:02:48.756 --> 0:02:52.636 some of my idols. I got a chance to play 0:02:52.716 --> 0:02:53.996 with Faction of Varrow. 0:02:54.596 --> 0:02:56.356 I want to bring that up the same year, when 0:02:56.516 --> 0:02:58.796 you're still eighteen, you got to play on some pretty 0:02:58.836 --> 0:03:04.236 incredible un power records, well, Pouncing with Bud, fifty second 0:03:04.276 --> 0:03:06.956 Street Theme, Dance of the Infidels, I mean, just real, 0:03:07.116 --> 0:03:09.636 real classics, and you're playing on there with Fats, with 0:03:09.676 --> 0:03:12.996 Fats and Navarro, the amazing trump of player. It's insane. 0:03:12.916 --> 0:03:16.116 Yeah, I know it was. I mean, I guess I 0:03:16.196 --> 0:03:20.636 had too many dogs in my head to even stop 0:03:20.716 --> 0:03:26.116 and realize what I was doing. Yeah, oh, but you know, 0:03:26.316 --> 0:03:29.556 so this is I credit bad. 0:03:29.636 --> 0:03:33.796 But and Jalous were doing that with getting me on 0:03:33.996 --> 0:03:38.636 a lot of jobs with uh Fast of all, I think, 0:03:39.396 --> 0:03:41.236 I'm sorry, I can't remember. 0:03:40.956 --> 0:03:44.996 Some of me. Some other the the best players around 0:03:45.196 --> 0:03:46.636 played with some. 0:03:46.716 --> 0:03:49.516 Of these jobs, and I was a young, young. 0:03:49.356 --> 0:03:53.676 Pet and my having an opportunity to play with them 0:03:53.916 --> 0:03:56.436 was tremendous. 0:03:55.916 --> 0:03:58.396 At eighteen playing with people like Bud, Poal and Fat 0:03:58.476 --> 0:04:00.436 and Navar. Were you were you nervous at all? 0:04:03.276 --> 0:04:03.596 Well? 0:04:03.636 --> 0:04:11.956 I was too stupid to be nervous, So I always 0:04:12.036 --> 0:04:16.396 felt that if they wanted me there, then I'll just 0:04:16.556 --> 0:04:20.716 you know that I should be there. I was never really. 0:04:20.436 --> 0:04:28.236 One of these guys. Was felt intimidated. I just felt well, 0:04:28.276 --> 0:04:30.836 look if they want me to read, and I'm just 0:04:31.076 --> 0:04:34.276 you know, I guess I'm supposed to be here. So 0:04:34.316 --> 0:04:36.516 it wasn't bad. So I went on and did what 0:04:36.676 --> 0:04:42.556 I did. But it was certainly not on the level 0:04:42.636 --> 0:04:46.276 of JJ Johnson and all of these people that I 0:04:46.316 --> 0:04:50.956 was playing with when I was a teenager, right, I. 0:04:50.916 --> 0:04:53.676 Mean Roy Haynes, who we thankfully, just like you, we 0:04:53.756 --> 0:04:56.076 still have around these days. He was on those Bud 0:04:56.076 --> 0:04:59.436 Powell sessions as well, the drummer Roy Haynes. Do you 0:04:59.436 --> 0:05:02.036 ever have the urge to call someone like that these 0:05:02.116 --> 0:05:05.436 days and just sort of confirm that these things actually happened. 0:05:07.716 --> 0:05:14.316 I called Roy upon his birthdays, and I always call 0:05:14.476 --> 0:05:17.996 him up and we talk about things that we can 0:05:18.076 --> 0:05:22.956 both remember. So Roy, I know from I know Roy. 0:05:23.356 --> 0:05:25.756 We know. We were a bunch of young kids wanting 0:05:25.836 --> 0:05:32.116 to play music. And Roy moved up in our neighborhood, 0:05:32.556 --> 0:05:36.556 up on sugar Hill they called it. We all knew him. 0:05:36.556 --> 0:05:38.556 And then Roy was playing with Leicester. 0:05:38.716 --> 0:05:41.236 Yell, you must have loved Lester. I mean, I can 0:05:41.276 --> 0:05:43.516 imagine Lester must have been an inspiration for you. 0:05:44.236 --> 0:05:47.196 Lester Young was God, you know, and it was so 0:05:47.476 --> 0:05:53.316 good to get to know Lester Yell and to know 0:05:53.436 --> 0:05:57.396 that Lester Young liked to me because we used to 0:05:57.436 --> 0:06:03.836 be up in Leicester's apartment at the Alvin Hotel up 0:06:03.876 --> 0:06:08.996 one Broadway, and guys would be let's look at the 0:06:09.316 --> 0:06:14.156 if for some guys coming musicians. He would call down 0:06:14.196 --> 0:06:18.436 and tell a guy, no, say I'm not home. So 0:06:18.676 --> 0:06:21.156 he you know, a lot of people came to see him, 0:06:21.156 --> 0:06:25.636 but he didn't avide everybody, and he liked me. He 0:06:25.836 --> 0:06:29.036 liked me and Matt Roach used to come out there 0:06:29.836 --> 0:06:37.396 and I got a great friendship with the Great Prayers 0:06:38.276 --> 0:06:42.916 and that gave me a lot of validation that I 0:06:43.076 --> 0:06:45.316 was doing something right. Yeah. 0:06:45.396 --> 0:06:48.756 Absolutely. I'm realizing Roy has a birthday coming up in 0:06:49.156 --> 0:06:50.876 a few days here, so I guess you'll be probably 0:06:50.916 --> 0:06:51.316 calling him. 0:06:51.356 --> 0:06:54.836 Huh oh, yeah, I didn't know it was coming up here. 0:06:54.916 --> 0:07:01.596 I'll find out about it and I will definitely call him, definitely. 0:07:01.796 --> 0:07:05.556 Yeah, yeah, man, Roy will be twenty ninety seven. You're 0:07:05.676 --> 0:07:08.036 ninety one. Now, how long ago does an experience like 0:07:08.116 --> 0:07:10.636 that feel it this point? Like, does it even feel 0:07:10.676 --> 0:07:12.156 like it was in the same lifetime? 0:07:12.676 --> 0:07:17.876 Well? Yes and no it uh, you know, there was 0:07:18.476 --> 0:07:23.636 no in a life that's a tough tough question, because 0:07:24.396 --> 0:07:29.316 lifetime means, you know, the last week could be a 0:07:29.356 --> 0:07:33.916 different lifetime in a way of speaking, in a way 0:07:34.156 --> 0:07:39.236 it's a different yes, but still it was a lifetime 0:07:39.276 --> 0:07:42.556 which I was involved in, so it's not that different. 0:07:43.276 --> 0:07:47.036 But yes, it was different in so many ways, different 0:07:47.116 --> 0:07:52.916 musicians around, different venues around. You know, lifetime is a 0:07:52.996 --> 0:08:00.356 difficult word since I believe in reincarnation. I accept reincarmation. 0:08:00.676 --> 0:08:03.836 So maybe when you say it was a different lifetime, 0:08:04.556 --> 0:08:10.156 it vends up too many contradictory things to be able 0:08:10.276 --> 0:08:12.276 to answer that precisely. 0:08:12.556 --> 0:08:14.156 No, I see what you mean. I see what you mean. 0:08:14.756 --> 0:08:17.276 I was watching an interview did the other night in 0:08:17.356 --> 0:08:20.156 nineteen sixty two on Ralph Gleason's show that I Used 0:08:20.156 --> 0:08:24.076 to Have Jazz Casual. You were the same age during 0:08:24.116 --> 0:08:26.716 the filming of that that I Am. Now you're thirty two, 0:08:27.316 --> 0:08:31.596 and you were referring to yourself as old and not taping. 0:08:32.076 --> 0:08:34.356 You refer to yourself as kind of like an old cat. Now, 0:08:34.916 --> 0:08:38.996 I'm curious what advice you might give yourself at thirty two. 0:08:39.196 --> 0:08:45.436 Now. You know, I've made so many mistakes in life. 0:08:45.556 --> 0:08:48.756 I've done some good things in life. 0:08:48.516 --> 0:08:51.996 You know, I was learning, which I was a learning experience. 0:08:52.836 --> 0:08:58.636 I think I was born a fairly positive person. Used 0:08:58.676 --> 0:09:01.396 to call me the jesture. Well, no, I was your 0:09:01.436 --> 0:09:05.676 little boy so and playing. So I think I had 0:09:05.876 --> 0:09:11.596 a positive personality all through my life. You know, that's 0:09:11.636 --> 0:09:15.876 what we think, and it's good, but things happened to us. 0:09:15.916 --> 0:09:20.876 We get tested in life, and it's a long trip. 0:09:21.476 --> 0:09:21.756 You know. 0:09:21.836 --> 0:09:28.396 And I've known so many people that didn't make it 0:09:29.116 --> 0:09:34.636 all the way and ended up in terribo situations. I 0:09:34.716 --> 0:09:37.676 was talking about my friend. There is a great drummer 0:09:37.716 --> 0:09:42.476 from Chicago named Aike Day. They played with that day 0:09:42.556 --> 0:09:46.636 when I was in Chicago Reagon nineteen forty nine. He 0:09:46.836 --> 0:09:51.436 was strung out on drugs and I was star sort 0:09:51.476 --> 0:09:54.356 of strung out on drugs at the time. So that 0:09:54.556 --> 0:09:58.756 was a different, different world. But it was one of 0:09:58.836 --> 0:10:03.716 those rivers I had to cross, so that it's hard 0:10:03.796 --> 0:10:06.916 to look back, you know. I made a lot of 0:10:06.996 --> 0:10:11.436 mistakes in life. I did some things in life which 0:10:11.516 --> 0:10:15.756 I like my music. I was already trying to get better. 0:10:16.836 --> 0:10:19.516 But as I said, I was a guy that wasn't 0:10:19.556 --> 0:10:25.556 afraid of trying to do something and playing with superior 0:10:25.716 --> 0:10:30.076 musicians and all that. Because you know, I thought that 0:10:30.196 --> 0:10:32.676 I should be there. They wanted me to be there. 0:10:33.756 --> 0:10:35.796 We have to learn we have to try to be 0:10:36.036 --> 0:10:38.516 out the Golden rule when all that stuff got to 0:10:38.596 --> 0:10:41.276 try to do it. We don't get it now, we 0:10:41.556 --> 0:10:45.196 have to try it again. Like it said in the 0:10:45.356 --> 0:10:49.996 TV commercial, pay me now or pay me later. 0:10:53.556 --> 0:10:55.396 I'm quote I'm gonna start quoting that. 0:10:56.196 --> 0:10:59.676 Yeah, man, you gotta get it right. You can't do 0:10:59.916 --> 0:11:02.876 anything and get away with it. You gotta get it right. 0:11:03.996 --> 0:11:06.156 You don't get it right now, you're gonna get happy 0:11:06.236 --> 0:11:10.636 get it right later because you reap. But to so see, 0:11:10.716 --> 0:11:15.476 some of these things are very important to remember that 0:11:15.636 --> 0:11:20.116 what life is aboved life is to find out the 0:11:20.236 --> 0:11:25.916 reason for life? What does it mean? And that goes 0:11:25.996 --> 0:11:29.476 on and on. Man who knows how many lives we 0:11:29.636 --> 0:11:33.396 have to live could read a brilliant Tridian who knows. 0:11:33.476 --> 0:11:36.916 I don't know, but I know that you can't get 0:11:36.916 --> 0:11:42.676 it generally in one lifetime. Some people are really advanced 0:11:42.756 --> 0:11:45.716 that I've read in life. I say, wow, their journey. 0:11:46.396 --> 0:11:49.876 They know a lot more than I do than some people. 0:11:50.076 --> 0:11:54.276 I'm ahead of some other people in their journey. I say, wow, 0:11:54.716 --> 0:11:58.636 I've learned some things. This guy hasn't learned, or this 0:11:58.796 --> 0:12:03.556 girl I even learned. All of these things mean something. 0:12:04.636 --> 0:12:06.476 We're going to take a quick break here, but we'll 0:12:06.476 --> 0:12:13.596 be back with more from Sonny Rollins. We're back with 0:12:13.636 --> 0:12:16.996 more from Sonny Rollins. You know, I'm thinking about what 0:12:17.196 --> 0:12:20.796 you've sewed musically, and that certainly is more and more 0:12:20.836 --> 0:12:23.916 than I think many people, you know, whatever, contribute to 0:12:23.956 --> 0:12:26.516 one lifetime. And I was thinking about the year particular, 0:12:26.676 --> 0:12:30.076 nineteen fifty six for you. That year you played a 0:12:30.156 --> 0:12:32.876 date with Miles Davis that included Charlie Parker. Do you 0:12:32.916 --> 0:12:38.476 remember that date? Oh yeah, Collector's Items, Collector's Items exactly. 0:12:39.156 --> 0:12:41.836 You played Serpent's Tooth. Did you interact with Bird much 0:12:41.836 --> 0:12:42.436 on that session? 0:12:43.116 --> 0:12:48.356 Well, Bird was another one of my gruges, so of 0:12:48.476 --> 0:12:51.556 course there was a lot of other some other things 0:12:51.596 --> 0:12:57.716 happen on that particular session. And well, I guess I 0:12:57.876 --> 0:13:01.156 might as were old say it. At that time, I 0:13:01.396 --> 0:13:05.796 was still on drugs. I hadn't seen Charlie Riff Parker 0:13:05.876 --> 0:13:08.996 or ours, he said, said Sarah. Sonny said. 0:13:09.236 --> 0:13:09.996 I told him. 0:13:10.436 --> 0:13:12.716 I think he said, yeah, how you doing. I think 0:13:12.756 --> 0:13:16.236 he meant that I bet my life together, And I 0:13:16.316 --> 0:13:20.636 tell him, oh, yeah, yeah, Mandham, I'm doing good, you know. 0:13:21.076 --> 0:13:25.756 So I lied to him. I wasn't doing good. And 0:13:25.836 --> 0:13:29.756 some guys in the band later on during the session 0:13:30.636 --> 0:13:33.476 they read it on me. They said, oh, man, Sonny, 0:13:33.996 --> 0:13:38.116 Sonny was getting high with this last night. So anyway, 0:13:38.236 --> 0:13:41.996 later on the session, after he found out that I 0:13:42.156 --> 0:13:45.636 had lied to him, I had noticed something in him 0:13:46.156 --> 0:13:51.356 had destroyed. He was had desponded. He was to know 0:13:51.436 --> 0:13:55.236 that I had and not just me. Then I realized 0:13:55.316 --> 0:13:59.876 maln Bird was so involved with all of the young 0:14:00.996 --> 0:14:07.436 musicians trying to follow his music in his lifestyle was 0:14:07.516 --> 0:14:11.876 killing him. The drug Yeah, knowing that all these young 0:14:11.916 --> 0:14:15.996 guys were using drugs, it worth killing him, It worth 0:14:16.076 --> 0:14:19.956 killing you. And I saw that at this session. So 0:14:21.716 --> 0:14:25.596 you know what I said, Okay, that's it. I said 0:14:25.636 --> 0:14:28.196 this to myself, I'm going to get off of drugs 0:14:28.636 --> 0:14:33.356 and still Charlie Parker that he shouldn't be so down 0:14:34.076 --> 0:14:40.716 because some people are following his positive effect on their life, 0:14:40.876 --> 0:14:44.356 not the negative effect. And that's when I made my 0:14:44.516 --> 0:14:47.396 decision to get off of drugs. 0:14:47.956 --> 0:14:49.916 Wow, I didn't know that. I had no idea. 0:14:50.676 --> 0:14:54.196 Yeah, well that's part of this life that I'm living here. 0:14:55.076 --> 0:14:59.756 So I say, you know what I got off of drugs. 0:15:00.476 --> 0:15:02.556 I didn't know whether they need to know all of that, 0:15:02.636 --> 0:15:03.956 but it wasn't losing. 0:15:04.476 --> 0:15:06.436 It's very fascinating. Did you ever get a chance to 0:15:06.476 --> 0:15:08.676 tell Charlie that you got clean? O? 0:15:09.156 --> 0:15:13.436 Well, what happened was this. There was a drug rehabilitation 0:15:14.596 --> 0:15:19.076 place in Lexington, Kentucky. It was the first place where 0:15:20.236 --> 0:15:23.876 every It was like the Betty Ford Clinic before the 0:15:23.956 --> 0:15:27.116 Betty Ford Clinic, and a lot of people were there, 0:15:27.356 --> 0:15:30.676 people that were into drugs, and movie stars were there. 0:15:31.116 --> 0:15:37.036 We were treated like patients, not as criminals anyway. 0:15:37.236 --> 0:15:39.876 So I was there for the cure. 0:15:40.076 --> 0:15:44.876 The cure was I been four months. I left Lexington 0:15:45.036 --> 0:15:50.396 in five five fifty five. That's when I was this 0:15:50.676 --> 0:15:54.076 charge or whatever you want to call it. But the 0:15:54.836 --> 0:16:01.156 unfortunate maybe so maybe not. A part of it was 0:16:01.236 --> 0:16:08.396 that Charlie Parker passed away one month before I got 0:16:08.436 --> 0:16:14.796 out of Lexington, Kentucky. So I never got the chance 0:16:14.876 --> 0:16:18.796 to which I was waiting to do growing up your 0:16:18.836 --> 0:16:23.436 berth mad him straight, Charlie m straight man. I would 0:16:23.476 --> 0:16:26.716 convince him or he would know that I was so 0:16:26.876 --> 0:16:32.436 anxious because I was so ashamed of lying to him. 0:16:32.636 --> 0:16:36.636 Earlier on this record, Dag he just recalled. So I 0:16:36.756 --> 0:16:40.316 was so anxious for this to happen. I would be 0:16:40.356 --> 0:16:43.596 able to see him and convince him that I was 0:16:44.076 --> 0:16:49.516 that I wasn't going to disgrace him anymore. But unfortunately 0:16:50.556 --> 0:16:51.916 that would denied me. 0:16:52.676 --> 0:16:57.196 However, I do believe in things like. 0:16:57.316 --> 0:17:01.196 The afterlife and all that stuff, So I think Charlie 0:17:01.196 --> 0:17:08.436 Parker knew wherever he was at that. Oh Sonny got 0:17:08.476 --> 0:17:09.116 my message. 0:17:09.716 --> 0:17:13.076 Yeah, no, definitely. And you know, really, when you think 0:17:13.076 --> 0:17:15.916 about it too, it's pretty great timing that you got 0:17:15.916 --> 0:17:18.356 clean in fifty five, because I mean, in fifty six 0:17:18.436 --> 0:17:22.516 your career is really insane. Your output I'm thinking about. 0:17:22.556 --> 0:17:25.836 You know, you do Saxophone Colossus tenor Madness, you do 0:17:26.956 --> 0:17:30.396 Brilliant Corners with The Loneus, You do a lot of 0:17:30.436 --> 0:17:34.076 your work with Max Roach and Clifford Brown Quintet. Just 0:17:34.116 --> 0:17:36.716 really incredible stuff is happening. I wanted to ask you 0:17:36.836 --> 0:17:40.796 that Brilliant Corners album with The Loneus Monk. That record 0:17:41.036 --> 0:17:42.676 really blows my mind when I listened to it. It's 0:17:42.676 --> 0:17:47.156 like spectacularly complex, especially that title track. Do you remember 0:17:47.276 --> 0:17:50.116 was that a tough session? A couple of sessions. 0:17:51.396 --> 0:17:54.756 Yeah, very tough session. It was a little different than 0:17:54.796 --> 0:17:58.356 the music that Monk could play before, as I remember, 0:17:59.916 --> 0:18:04.116 tough music, tough music. But everybody likes that record a lot. 0:18:04.796 --> 0:18:10.156 You already mentioned mad when they're talking about monks accomplishments. 0:18:10.476 --> 0:18:12.716 Yeah, did you enjoy playing on it? 0:18:13.156 --> 0:18:16.396 I think so. I think so. It was a hard 0:18:16.516 --> 0:18:20.516 record to make, you know, it was hard. Everybody didn't 0:18:21.036 --> 0:18:25.996 get it the first first go round, but yeah, sure 0:18:26.236 --> 0:18:29.796 was playing with Mark. Playing with Mark was it was 0:18:29.796 --> 0:18:33.836 a celestial experience. Whatever came out of it, and I 0:18:33.916 --> 0:18:37.996 had that experience. And everybody liked that record a great deal. 0:18:39.036 --> 0:18:41.556 I know. Ernie Henry, another tenor player. He ended up 0:18:41.636 --> 0:18:43.836 leaving I think one of the sessions, and then Clark 0:18:43.916 --> 0:18:46.276 Terry came in to sort of play. Did you ever 0:18:46.276 --> 0:18:46.996 feel like leaving? 0:18:47.716 --> 0:18:50.876 Oh no, no, no, maybe if they kicked me out, 0:18:50.996 --> 0:18:52.796 but I'm not leaving on my own. 0:18:52.916 --> 0:18:54.116 No, you're not quitting. 0:18:55.236 --> 0:18:59.596 Oh, they'd have to show me the door. 0:19:00.516 --> 0:19:02.836 There was a lot of great people on that record. 0:19:02.876 --> 0:19:08.116 There was Oscar Pettiford was there, Max Rhoades, I believe, 0:19:08.636 --> 0:19:13.956 and played the chilette. I forget. Everybody that was under 0:19:14.036 --> 0:19:18.596 regulars from it. Was great. It was a little different 0:19:18.676 --> 0:19:21.316 than some of the music he had done before, so 0:19:21.476 --> 0:19:24.476 it was quite a quite a landmark. 0:19:25.196 --> 0:19:28.196 Yeah, can you tell me about playing in the Max 0:19:28.316 --> 0:19:31.956 Roach Clifford Brown quintet with yourself and George Morrow and 0:19:32.316 --> 0:19:34.836 Richie Powell. It sounds to me like you guys had 0:19:34.996 --> 0:19:37.796 incredible chemistry. Did it feel that way to you at 0:19:37.796 --> 0:19:38.116 the time? 0:19:38.276 --> 0:19:40.716 Of course I had played with Mat for a couple 0:19:40.716 --> 0:19:47.116 of times in New York, but when that was uh, 0:19:48.196 --> 0:19:52.396 the band was Clifford and he it was different. Was 0:19:52.476 --> 0:19:55.436 right now I was doing more. I think I played 0:19:55.436 --> 0:19:59.396 as a side man or something on some record Max 0:19:59.516 --> 0:20:03.236 Roads in New York. But when I played with the band, 0:20:03.356 --> 0:20:06.796 that band, it was really I don't know. I'm glad 0:20:06.836 --> 0:20:14.076 it sounded like that because I had a great experience 0:20:14.156 --> 0:20:18.396 playing with Clifford Brown, and comfort was such a straight 0:20:19.676 --> 0:20:22.716 a straight up guy with such a straight up player, 0:20:23.876 --> 0:20:27.356 one of the mess players as we know. When I 0:20:27.476 --> 0:20:30.836 look back today and I talk to different guys, all 0:20:30.916 --> 0:20:34.596 these young guys, Clifford Brown was their favorite trumpet player. 0:20:35.196 --> 0:20:38.516 So he was quite a guy. But he was also 0:20:39.996 --> 0:20:43.716 a great person. And I learned a lot from Clifford 0:20:43.756 --> 0:20:47.436 because Clifford was playing all of this music, but he 0:20:47.636 --> 0:20:51.836 was not a guy that was messing around with drugs. 0:20:52.436 --> 0:20:57.196 He wasn't a cno. So I said to myself, wow, man, 0:20:57.356 --> 0:21:01.316 listened to all this music he can play and he's 0:21:01.396 --> 0:21:05.276 not had nothing to do with his personal life, So 0:21:05.796 --> 0:21:10.436 you don't have to be using drugs, drinking a lot 0:21:11.036 --> 0:21:14.316 and even gotten bad to play as much music as 0:21:14.316 --> 0:21:19.436 he did. And that was inspirational to me and I 0:21:19.756 --> 0:21:24.356 really learned for that. He said, Wow, man, if Clifton 0:21:24.436 --> 0:21:27.396 should do it, Man, all his music he's playing, I 0:21:27.436 --> 0:21:30.756 can do it. I don't need drugs to play. So 0:21:30.956 --> 0:21:33.556 he was a grand We were good friends. I mean, 0:21:34.436 --> 0:21:38.716 you know, I was really close after he passed away. 0:21:38.836 --> 0:21:43.876 When when we were playing in the band, and sometimes 0:21:45.076 --> 0:21:51.756 I had channel Clifford, I said, Clifford, man, what would 0:21:51.996 --> 0:21:54.516 what should we do right here? I mean I talked 0:21:54.516 --> 0:21:58.636 to him like that about the music and then he'd 0:21:59.236 --> 0:22:03.476 answer me. And that went on for a while run 0:22:04.116 --> 0:22:08.116 before that band broke up. Max goot I did trumpet plays, 0:22:08.196 --> 0:22:12.396 of course, but that happened for a while and then 0:22:13.396 --> 0:22:18.116 after a while I had stopped channeling Clifford and let 0:22:18.196 --> 0:22:22.556 him go on on his journey his life journey, but 0:22:22.716 --> 0:22:27.316 I channeled him for a long time after he passed, 0:22:28.156 --> 0:22:30.996 and then you know, and we had to play the 0:22:31.116 --> 0:22:34.436 same music, a lot of the same music. 0:22:35.636 --> 0:22:38.236 We'll be right back with more from Sonny Rollins after 0:22:38.516 --> 0:22:44.676 a quick break. We're back with the rest of my 0:22:44.756 --> 0:22:48.876 conversation with Sonny Rollins. Do you remember where you were 0:22:48.956 --> 0:22:51.956 when you found out Clifford and Richie Powell passed away 0:22:51.956 --> 0:22:52.956 in that car accident. 0:22:54.076 --> 0:23:01.316 Well, the brand was in uh Brownie and Uh Richie 0:23:01.516 --> 0:23:05.876 were in Philadelphia where they lived. Richie lived in willowgro 0:23:06.316 --> 0:23:11.756 sort of suburb Brownie was in. So we had been 0:23:11.796 --> 0:23:13.676 on the road to ben have been the road. So 0:23:14.036 --> 0:23:16.876 we had a low time off before we went. I 0:23:16.876 --> 0:23:19.836 think they we're going out to California, but on the 0:23:19.876 --> 0:23:23.556 way we were going to play in Chicago. So anyway, 0:23:24.076 --> 0:23:29.076 the days we had off, Marx and myself came to 0:23:29.196 --> 0:23:32.956 New York and Georgia Morrow came to New York. You know. 0:23:33.596 --> 0:23:42.156 The next job was Chicago, and we left Chiclo travel 0:23:42.316 --> 0:23:48.636 by car, and Brownie and Richie Powell left Philadelphia Tavern 0:23:48.756 --> 0:23:53.156 on the Pennsylvania turnbake by car, Mark Say and I 0:23:53.516 --> 0:23:57.396 and George Margutten. We got to Chicago, and we, you know, 0:23:57.556 --> 0:24:01.876 waiting around there. I remember Miles was playing at a 0:24:01.956 --> 0:24:06.676 club right down the street on sixty thirty Street. So 0:24:06.876 --> 0:24:12.076 while we were waiting for cliff to arrive into Carlo, 0:24:12.836 --> 0:24:17.036 we got the bad news. It was a soccer and 0:24:17.036 --> 0:24:21.276 I mean we were quiet like babies, and there was 0:24:21.436 --> 0:24:27.276 you know, there was a big event because everybody loved Brownie. Yeah, 0:24:27.476 --> 0:24:31.076 I mean Richie too, but Brownie was you know, Brownie 0:24:31.156 --> 0:24:40.156 was the leader and had gotten more accolades and Richie, 0:24:40.356 --> 0:24:42.556 you know, Richie was served, but she. 0:24:42.676 --> 0:24:43.876 Was making his name at the time. 0:24:43.916 --> 0:24:46.036 Really, huh, he was making his name. 0:24:45.876 --> 0:24:46.436 At the time. 0:24:47.116 --> 0:24:49.836 Incredible playing Brownie had made his name. 0:24:49.916 --> 0:24:50.236 Really. 0:24:50.716 --> 0:24:53.556 Did you see Bud Powell in the sort of aftermath 0:24:53.556 --> 0:24:54.796 of that or ever get a chance to talk with 0:24:54.956 --> 0:24:57.116 Bud Powell, who was Richie Powell's brother. Do you know 0:24:57.116 --> 0:24:57.756 how he took that? 0:24:58.356 --> 0:25:02.236 I don't know how he took that note? No, I 0:25:02.276 --> 0:25:02.636 don't know. 0:25:03.036 --> 0:25:06.876 Did you feel like that band had more yet to do? 0:25:07.796 --> 0:25:11.196 I think so? We think you didn't know. Clifford and 0:25:11.276 --> 0:25:14.636 now I used to practice together all the time, and 0:25:15.116 --> 0:25:20.396 besides the gigs, but we were trying to get closer, 0:25:21.076 --> 0:25:26.236 you know, as to musicians playing a saxophone and trumpet. 0:25:26.316 --> 0:25:29.716 So we were trying to get closer, trying to get 0:25:29.796 --> 0:25:34.796 tighter with our things. We had to play ensemble and everything, 0:25:34.836 --> 0:25:37.596 and I was new in the bands. I was trying 0:25:37.596 --> 0:25:41.676 to learn the book and all of this stuff. But 0:25:42.396 --> 0:25:47.796 besides that, there was this, besides the repertoire I was 0:25:47.836 --> 0:25:52.636 playing with Clifford that he and I tried to always 0:25:53.076 --> 0:25:56.276 get closer. So yeah, I think we had a lot 0:25:56.356 --> 0:25:56.556 to do. 0:25:57.076 --> 0:26:00.116 Yeah, do you think they had anything to do with 0:26:00.196 --> 0:26:03.036 you sort of stripping things back and go into like 0:26:03.036 --> 0:26:05.716 that trio format the next year just just you on 0:26:05.836 --> 0:26:09.316 sacks and then bass and drums. Was that related musically all? 0:26:10.796 --> 0:26:16.036 I don't remember when I did the first trio albums that. 0:26:15.996 --> 0:26:19.756 Would fifty around that time, yes, maybe six months later, 0:26:19.796 --> 0:26:21.676 eight months later, it would have been just. 0:26:22.036 --> 0:26:26.356 Yeah, I don't know. If no, I don't believe so, 0:26:26.556 --> 0:26:33.596 because I had always I had always uh enjoyed the 0:26:33.636 --> 0:26:41.556 smaller instrumentation. You know. In fact, when our first met 0:26:41.556 --> 0:26:46.676 Miles Davis, I was playing trio and we were playing 0:26:47.516 --> 0:26:51.796 opposite Miles. You know, Miles was the first Stars and 0:26:51.956 --> 0:26:54.916 we was a local band, and I think I was 0:26:54.996 --> 0:26:58.596 playing trio at that time, So no, I think I 0:26:58.676 --> 0:27:04.756 think the trios I did didn't stem from uh the 0:27:04.836 --> 0:27:07.076 cofored Brown period. 0:27:07.756 --> 0:27:10.276 Were you surprised how curious people found that idea of 0:27:10.316 --> 0:27:13.876 you just playing in that small trio you based drums 0:27:13.916 --> 0:27:16.356 like you did on Way out West or not at 0:27:16.356 --> 0:27:16.956 the vanguard. 0:27:17.796 --> 0:27:20.556