Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, Today we're continuing our celebration of Black
Speaker 1: Music Month with one of my all time favorites, jazz legend,
Speaker 1: Sonny Rollins. Rollins is dubbed the Saxophone Colossus. He's an
Speaker 1: American tenor and composer who was widely regarded as one
Speaker 1: of the most influential jazz musicians ever, with several awards
Speaker 1: under his belt, a Grammy Award for Lifetime Achievement in
Speaker 1: the National Medal of Arts to name a few. Some
Speaker 1: even venture to call him the greatest living improviser. Sadly, now,
Speaker 1: at ninety one years old, Rollins no longer plays as
Speaker 1: a result of pulmonary fibrosis, but he is able to
Speaker 1: look back at an eight decade career that took him
Speaker 1: all the way from the beginnings of bebop to playing
Speaker 1: with the Rolling Stones and all over the world. On
Speaker 1: today's episode, I spoke to Sonny Rollins by phone about
Speaker 1: one of his first big gigs at eighteen way back
Speaker 1: in nineteen forty nine, playing alongside other jazz icons like
Speaker 1: Bud Powell and Fats Navarro. He also explains why he
Speaker 1: no longer actively listens to music, and for the first
Speaker 1: time ever, how Charlie Parker is the reason he kicked drugs.
Speaker 1: This is broken record Liner notes to the digital age.
Speaker 1: I'm justin Mitchman. Here's my phone conversation with the great
Speaker 1: Sonny Rollins. I want to talk about early in your career.
Speaker 1: You were eighteen years old in nineteen forty nine. That
Speaker 1: was your first professional date and the first that I
Speaker 1: can figure was with Babs Gonzales on Saint Louis Blues.
Speaker 1: That does that seem true?
Speaker 2: I know that I had began recording in I've laid foties,
Speaker 2: so I would imagine that it might be true. I
Speaker 2: can't verify exactly.
Speaker 1: Do you remember Babs Gonzales pretty well?
Speaker 2: Oh? Sure? Very dish is like a character you. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I remember Mads very well. Babs. I liked my playing
Speaker 2: a lot, and I used to make some of these
Speaker 2: gigs that dads Gonzales had pole up a lot of
Speaker 2: resists in the car and we go down to Philly,
Speaker 2: or we go up to Boston or president an immediate area,
Speaker 2: and hey, so I got a chance to play with
Speaker 2: some of my idols. I got a chance to play
Speaker 2: with Faction of Varrow.
Speaker 1: I want to bring that up the same year, when
Speaker 1: you're still eighteen, you got to play on some pretty
Speaker 1: incredible un power records, well, Pouncing with Bud, fifty second
Speaker 1: Street Theme, Dance of the Infidels, I mean, just real,
Speaker 1: real classics, and you're playing on there with Fats, with
Speaker 1: Fats and Navarro, the amazing trump of player. It's insane.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know it was. I mean, I guess I
Speaker 2: had too many dogs in my head to even stop
Speaker 2: and realize what I was doing. Yeah, oh, but you know,
Speaker 2: so this is I credit bad.
Speaker 3: But and Jalous were doing that with getting me on
Speaker 3: a lot of jobs with uh Fast of all, I think,
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I can't remember.
Speaker 2: Some of me. Some other the the best players around
Speaker 2: played with some.
Speaker 3: Of these jobs, and I was a young, young.
Speaker 2: Pet and my having an opportunity to play with them
Speaker 2: was tremendous.
Speaker 1: At eighteen playing with people like Bud, Poal and Fat
Speaker 1: and Navar. Were you were you nervous at all?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 3: I was too stupid to be nervous, So I always
Speaker 3: felt that if they wanted me there, then I'll just
Speaker 3: you know that I should be there. I was never really.
Speaker 2: One of these guys. Was felt intimidated. I just felt well,
Speaker 2: look if they want me to read, and I'm just
Speaker 2: you know, I guess I'm supposed to be here. So
Speaker 2: it wasn't bad. So I went on and did what
Speaker 2: I did. But it was certainly not on the level
Speaker 2: of JJ Johnson and all of these people that I
Speaker 2: was playing with when I was a teenager, right, I.
Speaker 1: Mean Roy Haynes, who we thankfully, just like you, we
Speaker 1: still have around these days. He was on those Bud
Speaker 1: Powell sessions as well, the drummer Roy Haynes. Do you
Speaker 1: ever have the urge to call someone like that these
Speaker 1: days and just sort of confirm that these things actually happened.
Speaker 2: I called Roy upon his birthdays, and I always call
Speaker 2: him up and we talk about things that we can
Speaker 2: both remember. So Roy, I know from I know Roy.
Speaker 2: We know. We were a bunch of young kids wanting
Speaker 2: to play music. And Roy moved up in our neighborhood,
Speaker 2: up on sugar Hill they called it. We all knew him.
Speaker 2: And then Roy was playing with Leicester.
Speaker 1: Yell, you must have loved Lester. I mean, I can
Speaker 1: imagine Lester must have been an inspiration for you.
Speaker 2: Lester Young was God, you know, and it was so
Speaker 2: good to get to know Lester Yell and to know
Speaker 2: that Lester Young liked to me because we used to
Speaker 2: be up in Leicester's apartment at the Alvin Hotel up
Speaker 2: one Broadway, and guys would be let's look at the
Speaker 2: if for some guys coming musicians. He would call down
Speaker 2: and tell a guy, no, say I'm not home. So
Speaker 2: he you know, a lot of people came to see him,
Speaker 2: but he didn't avide everybody, and he liked me. He
Speaker 2: liked me and Matt Roach used to come out there
Speaker 2: and I got a great friendship with the Great Prayers
Speaker 2: and that gave me a lot of validation that I
Speaker 2: was doing something right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I'm realizing Roy has a birthday coming up in
Speaker 1: a few days here, so I guess you'll be probably
Speaker 1: calling him.
Speaker 2: Huh oh, yeah, I didn't know it was coming up here.
Speaker 2: I'll find out about it and I will definitely call him, definitely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, man, Roy will be twenty ninety seven. You're
Speaker 1: ninety one. Now, how long ago does an experience like
Speaker 1: that feel it this point? Like, does it even feel
Speaker 1: like it was in the same lifetime?
Speaker 2: Well? Yes and no it uh, you know, there was
Speaker 2: no in a life that's a tough tough question, because
Speaker 2: lifetime means, you know, the last week could be a
Speaker 2: different lifetime in a way of speaking, in a way
Speaker 2: it's a different yes, but still it was a lifetime
Speaker 2: which I was involved in, so it's not that different.
Speaker 2: But yes, it was different in so many ways, different
Speaker 2: musicians around, different venues around. You know, lifetime is a
Speaker 2: difficult word since I believe in reincarnation. I accept reincarmation.
Speaker 2: So maybe when you say it was a different lifetime,
Speaker 2: it vends up too many contradictory things to be able
Speaker 2: to answer that precisely.
Speaker 1: No, I see what you mean. I see what you mean.
Speaker 1: I was watching an interview did the other night in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two on Ralph Gleason's show that I Used
Speaker 1: to Have Jazz Casual. You were the same age during
Speaker 1: the filming of that that I Am. Now you're thirty two,
Speaker 1: and you were referring to yourself as old and not taping.
Speaker 1: You refer to yourself as kind of like an old cat. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm curious what advice you might give yourself at thirty two.
Speaker 2: Now. You know, I've made so many mistakes in life.
Speaker 2: I've done some good things in life.
Speaker 3: You know, I was learning, which I was a learning experience.
Speaker 2: I think I was born a fairly positive person. Used
Speaker 2: to call me the jesture. Well, no, I was your
Speaker 2: little boy so and playing. So I think I had
Speaker 2: a positive personality all through my life. You know, that's
Speaker 2: what we think, and it's good, but things happened to us.
Speaker 2: We get tested in life, and it's a long trip.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: And I've known so many people that didn't make it
Speaker 2: all the way and ended up in terribo situations. I
Speaker 2: was talking about my friend. There is a great drummer
Speaker 2: from Chicago named Aike Day. They played with that day
Speaker 2: when I was in Chicago Reagon nineteen forty nine. He
Speaker 2: was strung out on drugs and I was star sort
Speaker 2: of strung out on drugs at the time. So that
Speaker 2: was a different, different world. But it was one of
Speaker 2: those rivers I had to cross, so that it's hard
Speaker 2: to look back, you know. I made a lot of
Speaker 2: mistakes in life. I did some things in life which
Speaker 2: I like my music. I was already trying to get better.
Speaker 2: But as I said, I was a guy that wasn't
Speaker 2: afraid of trying to do something and playing with superior
Speaker 2: musicians and all that. Because you know, I thought that
Speaker 2: I should be there. They wanted me to be there.
Speaker 2: We have to learn we have to try to be
Speaker 2: out the Golden rule when all that stuff got to
Speaker 2: try to do it. We don't get it now, we
Speaker 2: have to try it again. Like it said in the
Speaker 2: TV commercial, pay me now or pay me later.
Speaker 1: I'm quote I'm gonna start quoting that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, you gotta get it right. You can't do
Speaker 2: anything and get away with it. You gotta get it right.
Speaker 2: You don't get it right now, you're gonna get happy
Speaker 2: get it right later because you reap. But to so see,
Speaker 2: some of these things are very important to remember that
Speaker 2: what life is aboved life is to find out the
Speaker 2: reason for life? What does it mean? And that goes
Speaker 2: on and on. Man who knows how many lives we
Speaker 2: have to live could read a brilliant Tridian who knows.
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I know that you can't get
Speaker 2: it generally in one lifetime. Some people are really advanced
Speaker 2: that I've read in life. I say, wow, their journey.
Speaker 2: They know a lot more than I do than some people.
Speaker 2: I'm ahead of some other people in their journey. I say, wow,
Speaker 2: I've learned some things. This guy hasn't learned, or this
Speaker 2: girl I even learned. All of these things mean something.
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break here, but we'll
Speaker 1: be back with more from Sonny Rollins. We're back with
Speaker 1: more from Sonny Rollins. You know, I'm thinking about what
Speaker 1: you've sewed musically, and that certainly is more and more
Speaker 1: than I think many people, you know, whatever, contribute to
Speaker 1: one lifetime. And I was thinking about the year particular,
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty six for you. That year you played a
Speaker 1: date with Miles Davis that included Charlie Parker. Do you
Speaker 1: remember that date? Oh yeah, Collector's Items, Collector's Items exactly.
Speaker 1: You played Serpent's Tooth. Did you interact with Bird much
Speaker 1: on that session?
Speaker 2: Well, Bird was another one of my gruges, so of
Speaker 2: course there was a lot of other some other things
Speaker 2: happen on that particular session. And well, I guess I
Speaker 2: might as were old say it. At that time, I
Speaker 2: was still on drugs. I hadn't seen Charlie Riff Parker
Speaker 2: or ours, he said, said Sarah. Sonny said.
Speaker 3: I told him.
Speaker 2: I think he said, yeah, how you doing. I think
Speaker 2: he meant that I bet my life together, And I
Speaker 2: tell him, oh, yeah, yeah, Mandham, I'm doing good, you know.
Speaker 2: So I lied to him. I wasn't doing good. And
Speaker 2: some guys in the band later on during the session
Speaker 2: they read it on me. They said, oh, man, Sonny,
Speaker 2: Sonny was getting high with this last night. So anyway,
Speaker 2: later on the session, after he found out that I
Speaker 2: had lied to him, I had noticed something in him
Speaker 2: had destroyed. He was had desponded. He was to know
Speaker 2: that I had and not just me. Then I realized
Speaker 2: maln Bird was so involved with all of the young
Speaker 2: musicians trying to follow his music in his lifestyle was
Speaker 2: killing him. The drug Yeah, knowing that all these young
Speaker 2: guys were using drugs, it worth killing him, It worth
Speaker 2: killing you. And I saw that at this session. So
Speaker 2: you know what I said, Okay, that's it. I said
Speaker 2: this to myself, I'm going to get off of drugs
Speaker 2: and still Charlie Parker that he shouldn't be so down
Speaker 2: because some people are following his positive effect on their life,
Speaker 2: not the negative effect. And that's when I made my
Speaker 2: decision to get off of drugs.
Speaker 1: Wow, I didn't know that. I had no idea.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's part of this life that I'm living here.
Speaker 2: So I say, you know what I got off of drugs.
Speaker 2: I didn't know whether they need to know all of that,
Speaker 2: but it wasn't losing.
Speaker 1: It's very fascinating. Did you ever get a chance to
Speaker 1: tell Charlie that you got clean? O?
Speaker 2: Well, what happened was this. There was a drug rehabilitation
Speaker 2: place in Lexington, Kentucky. It was the first place where
Speaker 2: every It was like the Betty Ford Clinic before the
Speaker 2: Betty Ford Clinic, and a lot of people were there,
Speaker 2: people that were into drugs, and movie stars were there.
Speaker 2: We were treated like patients, not as criminals anyway.
Speaker 3: So I was there for the cure.
Speaker 2: The cure was I been four months. I left Lexington
Speaker 2: in five five fifty five. That's when I was this
Speaker 2: charge or whatever you want to call it. But the
Speaker 2: unfortunate maybe so maybe not. A part of it was
Speaker 2: that Charlie Parker passed away one month before I got
Speaker 2: out of Lexington, Kentucky. So I never got the chance
Speaker 2: to which I was waiting to do growing up your
Speaker 2: berth mad him straight, Charlie m straight man. I would
Speaker 2: convince him or he would know that I was so
Speaker 2: anxious because I was so ashamed of lying to him.
Speaker 2: Earlier on this record, Dag he just recalled. So I
Speaker 2: was so anxious for this to happen. I would be
Speaker 2: able to see him and convince him that I was
Speaker 2: that I wasn't going to disgrace him anymore. But unfortunately
Speaker 2: that would denied me.
Speaker 3: However, I do believe in things like.
Speaker 2: The afterlife and all that stuff, So I think Charlie
Speaker 2: Parker knew wherever he was at that. Oh Sonny got
Speaker 2: my message.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, definitely. And you know, really, when you think
Speaker 1: about it too, it's pretty great timing that you got
Speaker 1: clean in fifty five, because I mean, in fifty six
Speaker 1: your career is really insane. Your output I'm thinking about.
Speaker 1: You know, you do Saxophone Colossus tenor Madness, you do
Speaker 1: Brilliant Corners with The Loneus, You do a lot of
Speaker 1: your work with Max Roach and Clifford Brown Quintet. Just
Speaker 1: really incredible stuff is happening. I wanted to ask you
Speaker 1: that Brilliant Corners album with The Loneus Monk. That record
Speaker 1: really blows my mind when I listened to it. It's
Speaker 1: like spectacularly complex, especially that title track. Do you remember
Speaker 1: was that a tough session? A couple of sessions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very tough session. It was a little different than
Speaker 2: the music that Monk could play before, as I remember,
Speaker 2: tough music, tough music. But everybody likes that record a lot.
Speaker 2: You already mentioned mad when they're talking about monks accomplishments.
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you enjoy playing on it?
Speaker 2: I think so. I think so. It was a hard
Speaker 2: record to make, you know, it was hard. Everybody didn't
Speaker 2: get it the first first go round, but yeah, sure
Speaker 2: was playing with Mark. Playing with Mark was it was
Speaker 2: a celestial experience. Whatever came out of it, and I
Speaker 2: had that experience. And everybody liked that record a great deal.
Speaker 1: I know. Ernie Henry, another tenor player. He ended up
Speaker 1: leaving I think one of the sessions, and then Clark
Speaker 1: Terry came in to sort of play. Did you ever
Speaker 1: feel like leaving?
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, maybe if they kicked me out,
Speaker 2: but I'm not leaving on my own.
Speaker 1: No, you're not quitting.
Speaker 3: Oh, they'd have to show me the door.
Speaker 2: There was a lot of great people on that record.
Speaker 2: There was Oscar Pettiford was there, Max Rhoades, I believe,
Speaker 2: and played the chilette. I forget. Everybody that was under
Speaker 2: regulars from it. Was great. It was a little different
Speaker 2: than some of the music he had done before, so
Speaker 2: it was quite a quite a landmark.
Speaker 1: Yeah, can you tell me about playing in the Max
Speaker 1: Roach Clifford Brown quintet with yourself and George Morrow and
Speaker 1: Richie Powell. It sounds to me like you guys had
Speaker 1: incredible chemistry. Did it feel that way to you at
Speaker 1: the time?
Speaker 2: Of course I had played with Mat for a couple
Speaker 2: of times in New York, but when that was uh,
Speaker 2: the band was Clifford and he it was different. Was
Speaker 2: right now I was doing more. I think I played
Speaker 2: as a side man or something on some record Max
Speaker 2: Roads in New York. But when I played with the band,
Speaker 2: that band, it was really I don't know. I'm glad
Speaker 2: it sounded like that because I had a great experience
Speaker 2: playing with Clifford Brown, and comfort was such a straight
Speaker 2: a straight up guy with such a straight up player,
Speaker 2: one of the mess players as we know. When I
Speaker 2: look back today and I talk to different guys, all
Speaker 2: these young guys, Clifford Brown was their favorite trumpet player.
Speaker 2: So he was quite a guy. But he was also
Speaker 2: a great person. And I learned a lot from Clifford
Speaker 2: because Clifford was playing all of this music, but he
Speaker 2: was not a guy that was messing around with drugs.
Speaker 2: He wasn't a cno. So I said to myself, wow, man,
Speaker 2: listened to all this music he can play and he's
Speaker 2: not had nothing to do with his personal life, So
Speaker 2: you don't have to be using drugs, drinking a lot
Speaker 2: and even gotten bad to play as much music as
Speaker 2: he did. And that was inspirational to me and I
Speaker 2: really learned for that. He said, Wow, man, if Clifton
Speaker 2: should do it, Man, all his music he's playing, I
Speaker 2: can do it. I don't need drugs to play. So
Speaker 2: he was a grand We were good friends. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, I was really close after he passed away.
Speaker 2: When when we were playing in the band, and sometimes
Speaker 2: I had channel Clifford, I said, Clifford, man, what would
Speaker 2: what should we do right here? I mean I talked
Speaker 2: to him like that about the music and then he'd
Speaker 2: answer me. And that went on for a while run
Speaker 2: before that band broke up. Max goot I did trumpet plays,
Speaker 2: of course, but that happened for a while and then
Speaker 2: after a while I had stopped channeling Clifford and let
Speaker 2: him go on on his journey his life journey, but
Speaker 2: I channeled him for a long time after he passed,
Speaker 2: and then you know, and we had to play the
Speaker 2: same music, a lot of the same music.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from Sonny Rollins after
Speaker 1: a quick break. We're back with the rest of my
Speaker 1: conversation with Sonny Rollins. Do you remember where you were
Speaker 1: when you found out Clifford and Richie Powell passed away
Speaker 1: in that car accident.
Speaker 2: Well, the brand was in uh Brownie and Uh Richie
Speaker 2: were in Philadelphia where they lived. Richie lived in willowgro
Speaker 2: sort of suburb Brownie was in. So we had been
Speaker 2: on the road to ben have been the road. So
Speaker 2: we had a low time off before we went. I
Speaker 2: think they we're going out to California, but on the
Speaker 2: way we were going to play in Chicago. So anyway,
Speaker 2: the days we had off, Marx and myself came to
Speaker 2: New York and Georgia Morrow came to New York. You know.
Speaker 2: The next job was Chicago, and we left Chiclo travel
Speaker 2: by car, and Brownie and Richie Powell left Philadelphia Tavern
Speaker 2: on the Pennsylvania turnbake by car, Mark Say and I
Speaker 2: and George Margutten. We got to Chicago, and we, you know,
Speaker 2: waiting around there. I remember Miles was playing at a
Speaker 2: club right down the street on sixty thirty Street. So
Speaker 2: while we were waiting for cliff to arrive into Carlo,
Speaker 2: we got the bad news. It was a soccer and
Speaker 2: I mean we were quiet like babies, and there was
Speaker 2: you know, there was a big event because everybody loved Brownie. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean Richie too, but Brownie was you know, Brownie
Speaker 2: was the leader and had gotten more accolades and Richie,
Speaker 2: you know, Richie was served, but she.
Speaker 1: Was making his name at the time.
Speaker 3: Really, huh, he was making his name.
Speaker 2: At the time.
Speaker 1: Incredible playing Brownie had made his name.
Speaker 2: Really.
Speaker 1: Did you see Bud Powell in the sort of aftermath
Speaker 1: of that or ever get a chance to talk with
Speaker 1: Bud Powell, who was Richie Powell's brother. Do you know
Speaker 1: how he took that?
Speaker 2: I don't know how he took that note? No, I
Speaker 2: don't know.
Speaker 1: Did you feel like that band had more yet to do?
Speaker 2: I think so? We think you didn't know. Clifford and
Speaker 2: now I used to practice together all the time, and
Speaker 2: besides the gigs, but we were trying to get closer,
Speaker 2: you know, as to musicians playing a saxophone and trumpet.
Speaker 2: So we were trying to get closer, trying to get
Speaker 2: tighter with our things. We had to play ensemble and everything,
Speaker 2: and I was new in the bands. I was trying
Speaker 2: to learn the book and all of this stuff. But
Speaker 2: besides that, there was this, besides the repertoire I was
Speaker 2: playing with Clifford that he and I tried to always
Speaker 2: get closer. So yeah, I think we had a lot
Speaker 2: to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think they had anything to do with
Speaker 1: you sort of stripping things back and go into like
Speaker 1: that trio format the next year just just you on
Speaker 1: sacks and then bass and drums. Was that related musically all?
Speaker 2: I don't remember when I did the first trio albums that.
Speaker 1: Would fifty around that time, yes, maybe six months later,
Speaker 1: eight months later, it would have been just.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. If no, I don't believe so,
Speaker 2: because I had always I had always uh enjoyed the
Speaker 2: smaller instrumentation. You know. In fact, when our first met
Speaker 2: Miles Davis, I was playing trio and we were playing
Speaker 2: opposite Miles. You know, Miles was the first Stars and
Speaker 2: we was a local band, and I think I was
Speaker 2: playing trio at that time, So no, I think I
Speaker 2: think the trios I did didn't stem from uh the
Speaker 2: cofored Brown period.
Speaker 1: Were you surprised how curious people found that idea of
Speaker 1: you just playing in that small trio you based drums
Speaker 1: like you did on Way out West or not at
Speaker 1: the vanguard.
Speaker 2: I hope that it would be received Well.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it was. I think it absolutely was.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it's it's.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: Those seemed to have really stood the test of time
Speaker 1: in an incredible way. But it's it's funny also just
Speaker 1: in a way, how curious people find that you know
Speaker 1: that that it's like, oh, whoa, you know, this isn't
Speaker 1: this pianoist trio? You know, it seemed to sort of
Speaker 1: well I.
Speaker 2: Always liked that, and not play was a great piano players,
Speaker 2: So there's no reflection on plane. But I liked the
Speaker 2: idea of just a rhythm section and allowing me to
Speaker 2: sort of be free, in a completely free just compose
Speaker 2: things in my own in my own mind and create
Speaker 2: the harmonies and the musical situations, and just came to me.
Speaker 2: I had a rhythm behind me, I had the base,
Speaker 2: and I had the jums to keep things moving. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I had the freedom to conceive of all of
Speaker 2: these things. So that's why I liked flying Like that
Speaker 2: had nothing to do with anything else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, got you. There's some wild playing on those records
Speaker 1: from you, some and even some incredible you know, evenm
Speaker 1: other cats you know, like not at the Vanguard. There's
Speaker 1: a couple of basils on that record that are great
Speaker 1: as well. You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I tried to get his guys that weren't afraid
Speaker 2: to play without a piano.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: See, a lot of guys just you know, would be
Speaker 2: reticent to do that. Well they had, you know, because
Speaker 2: the piano flits right in with the with a with
Speaker 2: a base you know, like ham and eggs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they I.
Speaker 2: Mean, yes, oh wow, piano and drums here, base here
Speaker 2: is playing years old they have. You know, those guys
Speaker 2: can wake up in the middle of the night and
Speaker 2: throw him and be writ in tune to the next note.
Speaker 2: So it was something which you know, you're it was
Speaker 2: somewhat of a challenge to them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was wilbur Ware by the way, be aware.
Speaker 2: Wilbur Aware. We used to have a joke about Bilber.
Speaker 2: We used to call them wilburgh beware.
Speaker 1: That's great. Alvin Jones also on drums on that just
Speaker 1: so j Yeah, incredible, incredible trio man Man.
Speaker 2: Then I had some other guys on that. On other
Speaker 2: parts of the record, I added a Pete le Roker
Speaker 2: and another guy.
Speaker 3: From UH, Donald Bailey, Baltimore.
Speaker 1: Donald.
Speaker 2: Who is Donald Bailey?
Speaker 1: I can't figure out who is Donald Bailey bass player?
Speaker 1: I know there's a drummer, Donald Bailey, right, But there's
Speaker 1: a drummer Donald Bailey. But is there also But I
Speaker 1: can't find anything out about a bass player.
Speaker 2: Donald Bailey was I know, I know he was very
Speaker 2: under uh that's here for music. Nobody know much about him.
Speaker 1: How did you know him?
Speaker 2: My good friend went to school down there at UH.
Speaker 2: I've watched college. I forget what it was, which is
Speaker 2: you have to forgive me. You know, there's when you
Speaker 2: get he said, he your your your memory, you know,
Speaker 2: your short term memory. It goes, you know, like ten
Speaker 2: minutes from now. But I need it now. But I
Speaker 2: had Oh but anyway, no, he's here. Was very but
Speaker 2: he was known in the area, you know, and he's
Speaker 2: a good player. You know, he played good. I liked
Speaker 2: him on those things.
Speaker 1: I always thought maybe was someone that like just couldn't say,
Speaker 1: like you couldn't say who it was for some contractual
Speaker 1: reason or something, because I was like, good, yeah, I can't.
Speaker 2: Know this guy is I know down really and uh
Speaker 2: unfortunately he passed not too long after those records came out,
Speaker 2: but they did a great, great job over your covering
Speaker 2: me on that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely did the record Sonny Side Up that you did
Speaker 1: with Dizzy Gillespie and Sunny Stitt in fifty nine. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: how did that come together?
Speaker 2: Well? I came together to Norman Grange.
Speaker 1: Okay, of course did you know.
Speaker 2: Who Norman Grande is?
Speaker 1: He did jazz at the Philharmonic, right, you put on
Speaker 1: all those all right?
Speaker 2: So he was promote jazz. Yeah, he did a lot
Speaker 2: of promotion of different people. And his crowned segment was
Speaker 2: judged the poo monic. But he was a big time
Speaker 2: or jazz promoter. He ain't replaying someplace. See, he's got
Speaker 2: to be a big fan of mine. And then he
Speaker 2: he was his date, I mean he arranged a date.
Speaker 2: That's it turned out to be, uh, Sunny and Sunny
Speaker 2: and Dizzy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Were you friendly with Dizzy at that time or
Speaker 1: did you know him? Decently well at all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was friendly with Dizzy. You know, if you
Speaker 2: know Dissy at all, you've got to be friendly with him.
Speaker 2: Just that type of guy he's I mean, he's always
Speaker 2: going to be something light and amusing that becomes part
Speaker 2: of the conversation. And you know, Dissey was a wonderful guy.
Speaker 2: Dissey with the guy that always was teaching people stuff.
Speaker 2: You know, he don't really young Musard should be run
Speaker 2: and he'd come in and you know, they showed to
Speaker 2: get him on the piano and show the piano playing
Speaker 2: some chords and sense chords, you know, stuff like that.
Speaker 2: He was a great natural teacher. I mean, I mean
Speaker 2: he wasn't trying to diminish the gad. I don't mean
Speaker 2: like that. I mean we were happy to have Bisy
Speaker 2: Gillespie there. That that was so you won't he wanted
Speaker 2: to uh to teach, you know, not to dispact the
Speaker 2: other guy at all, not in that sense in the least.
Speaker 2: Just everybody was listening to what he was doing, saying.
Speaker 1: And playing that record some side up was kind of
Speaker 1: an anomaly, I feel like in your catalog at least,
Speaker 1: you know, at the time, it felt maybe much more
Speaker 1: like a dizzy record than anything else, which I think
Speaker 1: is probably only natural.
Speaker 2: I think it it's a dissy records it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's kind of like the three of
Speaker 1: you got. I mean, you know it's it's named Sonny Sided.
Speaker 2: I mean there was Busy Gillespie. It was his session.
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, yeah, no, no, no, that's fair, that's fair.
Speaker 1: That's such a cool record.
Speaker 2: Yeah, some people liked it a lot. Some people musicians
Speaker 2: really thought that that was one of my best records.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you know what, you recorded that fifty seven,
Speaker 1: but it comes out fifty nine. The next year, nineteen sixty,
Speaker 1: Lee Morgan quoted you on a Jazz Messengers record. He
Speaker 1: did your little no no down just they're just this
Speaker 1: little phrase that you do. Oh really and yeah, and
Speaker 1: in Lee quoted you on this song called the Opener
Speaker 1: on a Jazz Messengers record just the next year.
Speaker 2: Oh it's good. Yeah. No, Ley is a great player. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Lay used to come whenever's playing with Matts and Confidence
Speaker 2: Philadelphia at a club there. Lee would come by, you know,
Speaker 2: to hat Clifford. I mean, so that's another.
Speaker 3: Guy, I mean, the young guy that all loved Clifford
Speaker 3: so much.
Speaker 2: So anyway, that's when they met to me. And uh,
Speaker 2: he used to play outside the club with his mouthweist alone.
Speaker 2: He would show me what he could do just playing
Speaker 2: his mouth best. And those life says, they say, hey, man,
Speaker 2: that's good. Yeah, Lee Morgan, I mean, but he's great. Man,
Speaker 2: he's a great player.
Speaker 1: You never got to play with him, did you.
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I don't think so.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: I think that's one one of the trumble players that
Speaker 2: I missed.
Speaker 1: Would have been great to hear you guys together.
Speaker 2: Man, Yeah, wonder Rogerson must have been a yeah, I'm sure.
Speaker 2: I'm sure I would have been inspired.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm curious. Is anyone you admire outside
Speaker 1: of jazz in terms of musically?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I admire all of the great musicians from
Speaker 2: those centuries. I like js Bach, I like Brahms, Debut
Speaker 2: C Revel, I like Fat Swawer, Louis Jordan Korsms my favorite,
Speaker 2: you know, and I like everybody. Yeah, I appreciate all
Speaker 2: kinds of music.
Speaker 1: Do you listen to music at all still? These days?
Speaker 2: Sure? Three?
Speaker 1: What do you what do you listen to? What do
Speaker 1: you enjoy listening to?
Speaker 2: Now? I don't listen to too much music. It's srange.
Speaker 2: I've listened to soul much music in my life. I
Speaker 2: still think music all the time. I'm still playing my horn,
Speaker 2: even though I can't play my own anymore. I'm still
Speaker 2: my imagine in passages that I would be fingering on
Speaker 2: my instrumental, although I can't do that anymore. So now
Speaker 2: listening to music. I love music, and occasionally I get
Speaker 2: to hear music, aren't some of the radio stations I have.
Speaker 2: Or I'll hear some music and I love it. But
Speaker 2: I don't go out to listen to music anymore. I
Speaker 2: don't mean go out in the street. I mean I
Speaker 2: don't seek out music anymore.
Speaker 1: Is it frustrating to hear in a sense since you
Speaker 1: can't you just pick up your horn and play some
Speaker 1: figures or anything.
Speaker 2: To a certain extent, I wouldn't look very completely as frustration,
Speaker 2: but that's part of it, because I hear something and
Speaker 2: I fear what I would be doing what I can do,
Speaker 2: so in a sense I was safe. There's not all
Speaker 2: all frustration because I love music and listening to somebody
Speaker 2: that I admire is great. It's a great feeling. So
Speaker 2: frustration might come a little bit because I should contribute
Speaker 2: being that it was part of.
Speaker 1: Your scene, Sonny it is. It was a pleasure and
Speaker 1: an honor speaking with you. I hope we get to
Speaker 1: do it again.
Speaker 2: Okay, man, take it even God bless you as.
Speaker 1: Well, sir. All right man, Hi bye, Sonny. Thanks to
Speaker 1: Sonny Rollins for taking us back to some of the earliest,
Speaker 1: most important moments in American recorded music history. To hear
Speaker 1: our favorite Sonny Rollins songs, check out the playlist at
Speaker 1: broken Record podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to
Speaker 1: our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcast,
Speaker 1: where you can find all of our new episodes. You
Speaker 1: can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record
Speaker 1: is produced at help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrell, Ben Talliday,
Speaker 1: Maeric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafe.
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Mia Lobel. Broken Record is a
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Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond.