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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, Today we're continuing our celebration of Black

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Speaker 1: Music Month with one of my all time favorites, jazz legend,

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Speaker 1: Sonny Rollins. Rollins is dubbed the Saxophone Colossus. He's an

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Speaker 1: American tenor and composer who was widely regarded as one

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Speaker 1: of the most influential jazz musicians ever, with several awards

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Speaker 1: under his belt, a Grammy Award for Lifetime Achievement in

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Speaker 1: the National Medal of Arts to name a few. Some

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Speaker 1: even venture to call him the greatest living improviser. Sadly, now,

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Speaker 1: at ninety one years old, Rollins no longer plays as

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Speaker 1: a result of pulmonary fibrosis, but he is able to

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Speaker 1: look back at an eight decade career that took him

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Speaker 1: all the way from the beginnings of bebop to playing

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Speaker 1: with the Rolling Stones and all over the world. On

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Speaker 1: today's episode, I spoke to Sonny Rollins by phone about

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Speaker 1: one of his first big gigs at eighteen way back

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Speaker 1: in nineteen forty nine, playing alongside other jazz icons like

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Speaker 1: Bud Powell and Fats Navarro. He also explains why he

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Speaker 1: no longer actively listens to music, and for the first

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Speaker 1: time ever, how Charlie Parker is the reason he kicked drugs.

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Speaker 1: This is broken record Liner notes to the digital age.

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Speaker 1: I'm justin Mitchman. Here's my phone conversation with the great

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Speaker 1: Sonny Rollins. I want to talk about early in your career.

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Speaker 1: You were eighteen years old in nineteen forty nine. That

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Speaker 1: was your first professional date and the first that I

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Speaker 1: can figure was with Babs Gonzales on Saint Louis Blues.

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Speaker 1: That does that seem true?

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Speaker 2: I know that I had began recording in I've laid foties,

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Speaker 2: so I would imagine that it might be true. I

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Speaker 2: can't verify exactly.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember Babs Gonzales pretty well?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Sure? Very dish is like a character you. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I remember Mads very well. Babs. I liked my playing

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Speaker 2: a lot, and I used to make some of these

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Speaker 2: gigs that dads Gonzales had pole up a lot of

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Speaker 2: resists in the car and we go down to Philly,

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Speaker 2: or we go up to Boston or president an immediate area,

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Speaker 2: and hey, so I got a chance to play with

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Speaker 2: some of my idols. I got a chance to play

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Speaker 2: with Faction of Varrow.

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Speaker 1: I want to bring that up the same year, when

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Speaker 1: you're still eighteen, you got to play on some pretty

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Speaker 1: incredible un power records, well, Pouncing with Bud, fifty second

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Speaker 1: Street Theme, Dance of the Infidels, I mean, just real,

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Speaker 1: real classics, and you're playing on there with Fats, with

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Speaker 1: Fats and Navarro, the amazing trump of player. It's insane.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know it was. I mean, I guess I

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Speaker 2: had too many dogs in my head to even stop

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Speaker 2: and realize what I was doing. Yeah, oh, but you know,

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Speaker 2: so this is I credit bad.

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Speaker 3: But and Jalous were doing that with getting me on

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Speaker 3: a lot of jobs with uh Fast of all, I think,

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I can't remember.

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Speaker 2: Some of me. Some other the the best players around

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Speaker 2: played with some.

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Speaker 3: Of these jobs, and I was a young, young.

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Speaker 2: Pet and my having an opportunity to play with them

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Speaker 2: was tremendous.

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Speaker 1: At eighteen playing with people like Bud, Poal and Fat

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Speaker 1: and Navar. Were you were you nervous at all?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 3: I was too stupid to be nervous, So I always

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Speaker 3: felt that if they wanted me there, then I'll just

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Speaker 3: you know that I should be there. I was never really.

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Speaker 2: One of these guys. Was felt intimidated. I just felt well,

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Speaker 2: look if they want me to read, and I'm just

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Speaker 2: you know, I guess I'm supposed to be here. So

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Speaker 2: it wasn't bad. So I went on and did what

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Speaker 2: I did. But it was certainly not on the level

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Speaker 2: of JJ Johnson and all of these people that I

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Speaker 2: was playing with when I was a teenager, right, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean Roy Haynes, who we thankfully, just like you, we

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Speaker 1: still have around these days. He was on those Bud

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Speaker 1: Powell sessions as well, the drummer Roy Haynes. Do you

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Speaker 1: ever have the urge to call someone like that these

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Speaker 1: days and just sort of confirm that these things actually happened.

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Speaker 2: I called Roy upon his birthdays, and I always call

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Speaker 2: him up and we talk about things that we can

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Speaker 2: both remember. So Roy, I know from I know Roy.

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Speaker 2: We know. We were a bunch of young kids wanting

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Speaker 2: to play music. And Roy moved up in our neighborhood,

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Speaker 2: up on sugar Hill they called it. We all knew him.

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Speaker 2: And then Roy was playing with Leicester.

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Speaker 1: Yell, you must have loved Lester. I mean, I can

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Speaker 1: imagine Lester must have been an inspiration for you.

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Speaker 2: Lester Young was God, you know, and it was so

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Speaker 2: good to get to know Lester Yell and to know

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Speaker 2: that Lester Young liked to me because we used to

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Speaker 2: be up in Leicester's apartment at the Alvin Hotel up

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Speaker 2: one Broadway, and guys would be let's look at the

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Speaker 2: if for some guys coming musicians. He would call down

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Speaker 2: and tell a guy, no, say I'm not home. So

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Speaker 2: he you know, a lot of people came to see him,

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Speaker 2: but he didn't avide everybody, and he liked me. He

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Speaker 2: liked me and Matt Roach used to come out there

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Speaker 2: and I got a great friendship with the Great Prayers

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Speaker 2: and that gave me a lot of validation that I

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Speaker 2: was doing something right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. I'm realizing Roy has a birthday coming up in

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Speaker 1: a few days here, so I guess you'll be probably

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Speaker 1: calling him.

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Speaker 2: Huh oh, yeah, I didn't know it was coming up here.

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Speaker 2: I'll find out about it and I will definitely call him, definitely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, man, Roy will be twenty ninety seven. You're

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Speaker 1: ninety one. Now, how long ago does an experience like

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Speaker 1: that feel it this point? Like, does it even feel

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Speaker 1: like it was in the same lifetime?

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Speaker 2: Well? Yes and no it uh, you know, there was

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Speaker 2: no in a life that's a tough tough question, because

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Speaker 2: lifetime means, you know, the last week could be a

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Speaker 2: different lifetime in a way of speaking, in a way

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Speaker 2: it's a different yes, but still it was a lifetime

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Speaker 2: which I was involved in, so it's not that different.

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Speaker 2: But yes, it was different in so many ways, different

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Speaker 2: musicians around, different venues around. You know, lifetime is a

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Speaker 2: difficult word since I believe in reincarnation. I accept reincarmation.

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Speaker 2: So maybe when you say it was a different lifetime,

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Speaker 2: it vends up too many contradictory things to be able

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Speaker 2: to answer that precisely.

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Speaker 1: No, I see what you mean. I see what you mean.

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Speaker 1: I was watching an interview did the other night in

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two on Ralph Gleason's show that I Used

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Speaker 1: to Have Jazz Casual. You were the same age during

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Speaker 1: the filming of that that I Am. Now you're thirty two,

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Speaker 1: and you were referring to yourself as old and not taping.

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Speaker 1: You refer to yourself as kind of like an old cat. Now,

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Speaker 1: I'm curious what advice you might give yourself at thirty two.

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Speaker 2: Now. You know, I've made so many mistakes in life.

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Speaker 2: I've done some good things in life.

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Speaker 3: You know, I was learning, which I was a learning experience.

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Speaker 2: I think I was born a fairly positive person. Used

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Speaker 2: to call me the jesture. Well, no, I was your

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Speaker 2: little boy so and playing. So I think I had

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Speaker 2: a positive personality all through my life. You know, that's

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Speaker 2: what we think, and it's good, but things happened to us.

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Speaker 2: We get tested in life, and it's a long trip.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: And I've known so many people that didn't make it

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Speaker 2: all the way and ended up in terribo situations. I

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Speaker 2: was talking about my friend. There is a great drummer

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Speaker 2: from Chicago named Aike Day. They played with that day

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Speaker 2: when I was in Chicago Reagon nineteen forty nine. He

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Speaker 2: was strung out on drugs and I was star sort

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Speaker 2: of strung out on drugs at the time. So that

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Speaker 2: was a different, different world. But it was one of

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Speaker 2: those rivers I had to cross, so that it's hard

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Speaker 2: to look back, you know. I made a lot of

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Speaker 2: mistakes in life. I did some things in life which

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Speaker 2: I like my music. I was already trying to get better.

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Speaker 2: But as I said, I was a guy that wasn't

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Speaker 2: afraid of trying to do something and playing with superior

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Speaker 2: musicians and all that. Because you know, I thought that

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Speaker 2: I should be there. They wanted me to be there.

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Speaker 2: We have to learn we have to try to be

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Speaker 2: out the Golden rule when all that stuff got to

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Speaker 2: try to do it. We don't get it now, we

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Speaker 2: have to try it again. Like it said in the

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Speaker 2: TV commercial, pay me now or pay me later.

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Speaker 1: I'm quote I'm gonna start quoting that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, man, you gotta get it right. You can't do

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Speaker 2: anything and get away with it. You gotta get it right.

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Speaker 2: You don't get it right now, you're gonna get happy

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Speaker 2: get it right later because you reap. But to so see,

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Speaker 2: some of these things are very important to remember that

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Speaker 2: what life is aboved life is to find out the

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Speaker 2: reason for life? What does it mean? And that goes

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Speaker 2: on and on. Man who knows how many lives we

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Speaker 2: have to live could read a brilliant Tridian who knows.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, but I know that you can't get

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Speaker 2: it generally in one lifetime. Some people are really advanced

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Speaker 2: that I've read in life. I say, wow, their journey.

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Speaker 2: They know a lot more than I do than some people.

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Speaker 2: I'm ahead of some other people in their journey. I say, wow,

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Speaker 2: I've learned some things. This guy hasn't learned, or this

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Speaker 2: girl I even learned. All of these things mean something.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break here, but we'll

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Speaker 1: be back with more from Sonny Rollins. We're back with

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Speaker 1: more from Sonny Rollins. You know, I'm thinking about what

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Speaker 1: you've sewed musically, and that certainly is more and more

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Speaker 1: than I think many people, you know, whatever, contribute to

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Speaker 1: one lifetime. And I was thinking about the year particular,

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty six for you. That year you played a

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Speaker 1: date with Miles Davis that included Charlie Parker. Do you

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Speaker 1: remember that date? Oh yeah, Collector's Items, Collector's Items exactly.

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Speaker 1: You played Serpent's Tooth. Did you interact with Bird much

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Speaker 1: on that session?

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Speaker 2: Well, Bird was another one of my gruges, so of

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Speaker 2: course there was a lot of other some other things

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Speaker 2: happen on that particular session. And well, I guess I

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Speaker 2: might as were old say it. At that time, I

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Speaker 2: was still on drugs. I hadn't seen Charlie Riff Parker

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Speaker 2: or ours, he said, said Sarah. Sonny said.

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Speaker 3: I told him.

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Speaker 2: I think he said, yeah, how you doing. I think

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Speaker 2: he meant that I bet my life together, And I

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Speaker 2: tell him, oh, yeah, yeah, Mandham, I'm doing good, you know.

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Speaker 2: So I lied to him. I wasn't doing good. And

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Speaker 2: some guys in the band later on during the session

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Speaker 2: they read it on me. They said, oh, man, Sonny,

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Speaker 2: Sonny was getting high with this last night. So anyway,

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Speaker 2: later on the session, after he found out that I

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Speaker 2: had lied to him, I had noticed something in him

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Speaker 2: had destroyed. He was had desponded. He was to know

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Speaker 2: that I had and not just me. Then I realized

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Speaker 2: maln Bird was so involved with all of the young

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Speaker 2: musicians trying to follow his music in his lifestyle was

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Speaker 2: killing him. The drug Yeah, knowing that all these young

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Speaker 2: guys were using drugs, it worth killing him, It worth

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Speaker 2: killing you. And I saw that at this session. So

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Speaker 2: you know what I said, Okay, that's it. I said

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Speaker 2: this to myself, I'm going to get off of drugs

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Speaker 2: and still Charlie Parker that he shouldn't be so down

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Speaker 2: because some people are following his positive effect on their life,

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Speaker 2: not the negative effect. And that's when I made my

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Speaker 2: decision to get off of drugs.

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Speaker 1: Wow, I didn't know that. I had no idea.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's part of this life that I'm living here.

217
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Speaker 2: So I say, you know what I got off of drugs.

218
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Speaker 2: I didn't know whether they need to know all of that,

219
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Speaker 2: but it wasn't losing.

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Speaker 1: It's very fascinating. Did you ever get a chance to

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Speaker 1: tell Charlie that you got clean? O?

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Speaker 2: Well, what happened was this. There was a drug rehabilitation

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Speaker 2: place in Lexington, Kentucky. It was the first place where

224
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Speaker 2: every It was like the Betty Ford Clinic before the

225
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Speaker 2: Betty Ford Clinic, and a lot of people were there,

226
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Speaker 2: people that were into drugs, and movie stars were there.

227
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Speaker 2: We were treated like patients, not as criminals anyway.

228
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Speaker 3: So I was there for the cure.

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Speaker 2: The cure was I been four months. I left Lexington

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Speaker 2: in five five fifty five. That's when I was this

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Speaker 2: charge or whatever you want to call it. But the

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Speaker 2: unfortunate maybe so maybe not. A part of it was

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Speaker 2: that Charlie Parker passed away one month before I got

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Speaker 2: out of Lexington, Kentucky. So I never got the chance

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Speaker 2: to which I was waiting to do growing up your

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Speaker 2: berth mad him straight, Charlie m straight man. I would

237
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Speaker 2: convince him or he would know that I was so

238
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Speaker 2: anxious because I was so ashamed of lying to him.

239
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Speaker 2: Earlier on this record, Dag he just recalled. So I

240
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Speaker 2: was so anxious for this to happen. I would be

241
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Speaker 2: able to see him and convince him that I was

242
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Speaker 2: that I wasn't going to disgrace him anymore. But unfortunately

243
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Speaker 2: that would denied me.

244
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Speaker 3: However, I do believe in things like.

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Speaker 2: The afterlife and all that stuff, So I think Charlie

246
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Speaker 2: Parker knew wherever he was at that. Oh Sonny got

247
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Speaker 2: my message.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, definitely. And you know, really, when you think

249
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Speaker 1: about it too, it's pretty great timing that you got

250
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Speaker 1: clean in fifty five, because I mean, in fifty six

251
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Speaker 1: your career is really insane. Your output I'm thinking about.

252
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Speaker 1: You know, you do Saxophone Colossus tenor Madness, you do

253
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Speaker 1: Brilliant Corners with The Loneus, You do a lot of

254
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Speaker 1: your work with Max Roach and Clifford Brown Quintet. Just

255
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Speaker 1: really incredible stuff is happening. I wanted to ask you

256
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Speaker 1: that Brilliant Corners album with The Loneus Monk. That record

257
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Speaker 1: really blows my mind when I listened to it. It's

258
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Speaker 1: like spectacularly complex, especially that title track. Do you remember

259
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Speaker 1: was that a tough session? A couple of sessions.

260
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Speaker 2: Yeah, very tough session. It was a little different than

261
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Speaker 2: the music that Monk could play before, as I remember,

262
00:17:59,916 --> 00:18:04,116
Speaker 2: tough music, tough music. But everybody likes that record a lot.

263
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Speaker 2: You already mentioned mad when they're talking about monks accomplishments.

264
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Speaker 1: Yeah, did you enjoy playing on it?

265
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Speaker 2: I think so. I think so. It was a hard

266
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Speaker 2: record to make, you know, it was hard. Everybody didn't

267
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Speaker 2: get it the first first go round, but yeah, sure

268
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Speaker 2: was playing with Mark. Playing with Mark was it was

269
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Speaker 2: a celestial experience. Whatever came out of it, and I

270
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Speaker 2: had that experience. And everybody liked that record a great deal.

271
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Speaker 1: I know. Ernie Henry, another tenor player. He ended up

272
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Speaker 1: leaving I think one of the sessions, and then Clark

273
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Speaker 1: Terry came in to sort of play. Did you ever

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Speaker 1: feel like leaving?

275
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Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, maybe if they kicked me out,

276
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Speaker 2: but I'm not leaving on my own.

277
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Speaker 1: No, you're not quitting.

278
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Speaker 3: Oh, they'd have to show me the door.

279
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Speaker 2: There was a lot of great people on that record.

280
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Speaker 2: There was Oscar Pettiford was there, Max Rhoades, I believe,

281
00:19:08,636 --> 00:19:13,956
Speaker 2: and played the chilette. I forget. Everybody that was under

282
00:19:14,036 --> 00:19:18,596
Speaker 2: regulars from it. Was great. It was a little different

283
00:19:18,676 --> 00:19:21,316
Speaker 2: than some of the music he had done before, so

284
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Speaker 2: it was quite a quite a landmark.

285
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Speaker 1: Yeah, can you tell me about playing in the Max

286
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Speaker 1: Roach Clifford Brown quintet with yourself and George Morrow and

287
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Speaker 1: Richie Powell. It sounds to me like you guys had

288
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Speaker 1: incredible chemistry. Did it feel that way to you at

289
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Speaker 1: the time?

290
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Speaker 2: Of course I had played with Mat for a couple

291
00:19:40,716 --> 00:19:47,116
Speaker 2: of times in New York, but when that was uh,

292
00:19:48,196 --> 00:19:52,396
Speaker 2: the band was Clifford and he it was different. Was

293
00:19:52,476 --> 00:19:55,436
Speaker 2: right now I was doing more. I think I played

294
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Speaker 2: as a side man or something on some record Max

295
00:19:59,516 --> 00:20:03,236
Speaker 2: Roads in New York. But when I played with the band,

296
00:20:03,356 --> 00:20:06,796
Speaker 2: that band, it was really I don't know. I'm glad

297
00:20:06,836 --> 00:20:14,076
Speaker 2: it sounded like that because I had a great experience

298
00:20:14,156 --> 00:20:18,396
Speaker 2: playing with Clifford Brown, and comfort was such a straight

299
00:20:19,676 --> 00:20:22,716
Speaker 2: a straight up guy with such a straight up player,

300
00:20:23,876 --> 00:20:27,356
Speaker 2: one of the mess players as we know. When I

301
00:20:27,476 --> 00:20:30,836
Speaker 2: look back today and I talk to different guys, all

302
00:20:30,916 --> 00:20:34,596
Speaker 2: these young guys, Clifford Brown was their favorite trumpet player.

303
00:20:35,196 --> 00:20:38,516
Speaker 2: So he was quite a guy. But he was also

304
00:20:39,996 --> 00:20:43,716
Speaker 2: a great person. And I learned a lot from Clifford

305
00:20:43,756 --> 00:20:47,436
Speaker 2: because Clifford was playing all of this music, but he

306
00:20:47,636 --> 00:20:51,836
Speaker 2: was not a guy that was messing around with drugs.

307
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Speaker 2: He wasn't a cno. So I said to myself, wow, man,

308
00:20:57,356 --> 00:21:01,316
Speaker 2: listened to all this music he can play and he's

309
00:21:01,396 --> 00:21:05,276
Speaker 2: not had nothing to do with his personal life, So

310
00:21:05,796 --> 00:21:10,436
Speaker 2: you don't have to be using drugs, drinking a lot

311
00:21:11,036 --> 00:21:14,316
Speaker 2: and even gotten bad to play as much music as

312
00:21:14,316 --> 00:21:19,436
Speaker 2: he did. And that was inspirational to me and I

313
00:21:19,756 --> 00:21:24,356
Speaker 2: really learned for that. He said, Wow, man, if Clifton

314
00:21:24,436 --> 00:21:27,396
Speaker 2: should do it, Man, all his music he's playing, I

315
00:21:27,436 --> 00:21:30,756
Speaker 2: can do it. I don't need drugs to play. So

316
00:21:30,956 --> 00:21:33,556
Speaker 2: he was a grand We were good friends. I mean,

317
00:21:34,436 --> 00:21:38,716
Speaker 2: you know, I was really close after he passed away.

318
00:21:38,836 --> 00:21:43,876
Speaker 2: When when we were playing in the band, and sometimes

319
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Speaker 2: I had channel Clifford, I said, Clifford, man, what would

320
00:21:51,996 --> 00:21:54,516
Speaker 2: what should we do right here? I mean I talked

321
00:21:54,516 --> 00:21:58,636
Speaker 2: to him like that about the music and then he'd

322
00:21:59,236 --> 00:22:03,476
Speaker 2: answer me. And that went on for a while run

323
00:22:04,116 --> 00:22:08,116
Speaker 2: before that band broke up. Max goot I did trumpet plays,

324
00:22:08,196 --> 00:22:12,396
Speaker 2: of course, but that happened for a while and then

325
00:22:13,396 --> 00:22:18,116
Speaker 2: after a while I had stopped channeling Clifford and let

326
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Speaker 2: him go on on his journey his life journey, but

327
00:22:22,716 --> 00:22:27,316
Speaker 2: I channeled him for a long time after he passed,

328
00:22:28,156 --> 00:22:30,996
Speaker 2: and then you know, and we had to play the

329
00:22:31,116 --> 00:22:34,436
Speaker 2: same music, a lot of the same music.

330
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Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from Sonny Rollins after

331
00:22:38,516 --> 00:22:44,676
Speaker 1: a quick break. We're back with the rest of my

332
00:22:44,756 --> 00:22:48,876
Speaker 1: conversation with Sonny Rollins. Do you remember where you were

333
00:22:48,956 --> 00:22:51,956
Speaker 1: when you found out Clifford and Richie Powell passed away

334
00:22:51,956 --> 00:22:52,956
Speaker 1: in that car accident.

335
00:22:54,076 --> 00:23:01,316
Speaker 2: Well, the brand was in uh Brownie and Uh Richie

336
00:23:01,516 --> 00:23:05,876
Speaker 2: were in Philadelphia where they lived. Richie lived in willowgro

337
00:23:06,316 --> 00:23:11,756
Speaker 2: sort of suburb Brownie was in. So we had been

338
00:23:11,796 --> 00:23:13,676
Speaker 2: on the road to ben have been the road. So

339
00:23:14,036 --> 00:23:16,876
Speaker 2: we had a low time off before we went. I

340
00:23:16,876 --> 00:23:19,836
Speaker 2: think they we're going out to California, but on the

341
00:23:19,876 --> 00:23:23,556
Speaker 2: way we were going to play in Chicago. So anyway,

342
00:23:24,076 --> 00:23:29,076
Speaker 2: the days we had off, Marx and myself came to

343
00:23:29,196 --> 00:23:32,956
Speaker 2: New York and Georgia Morrow came to New York. You know.

344
00:23:33,596 --> 00:23:42,156
Speaker 2: The next job was Chicago, and we left Chiclo travel

345
00:23:42,316 --> 00:23:48,636
Speaker 2: by car, and Brownie and Richie Powell left Philadelphia Tavern

346
00:23:48,756 --> 00:23:53,156
Speaker 2: on the Pennsylvania turnbake by car, Mark Say and I

347
00:23:53,516 --> 00:23:57,396
Speaker 2: and George Margutten. We got to Chicago, and we, you know,

348
00:23:57,556 --> 00:24:01,876
Speaker 2: waiting around there. I remember Miles was playing at a

349
00:24:01,956 --> 00:24:06,676
Speaker 2: club right down the street on sixty thirty Street. So

350
00:24:06,876 --> 00:24:12,076
Speaker 2: while we were waiting for cliff to arrive into Carlo,

351
00:24:12,836 --> 00:24:17,036
Speaker 2: we got the bad news. It was a soccer and

352
00:24:17,036 --> 00:24:21,276
Speaker 2: I mean we were quiet like babies, and there was

353
00:24:21,436 --> 00:24:27,276
Speaker 2: you know, there was a big event because everybody loved Brownie. Yeah,

354
00:24:27,476 --> 00:24:31,076
Speaker 2: I mean Richie too, but Brownie was you know, Brownie

355
00:24:31,156 --> 00:24:40,156
Speaker 2: was the leader and had gotten more accolades and Richie,

356
00:24:40,356 --> 00:24:42,556
Speaker 2: you know, Richie was served, but she.

357
00:24:42,676 --> 00:24:43,876
Speaker 1: Was making his name at the time.

358
00:24:43,916 --> 00:24:46,036
Speaker 3: Really, huh, he was making his name.

359
00:24:45,876 --> 00:24:46,436
Speaker 2: At the time.

360
00:24:47,116 --> 00:24:49,836
Speaker 1: Incredible playing Brownie had made his name.

361
00:24:49,916 --> 00:24:50,236
Speaker 2: Really.

362
00:24:50,716 --> 00:24:53,556
Speaker 1: Did you see Bud Powell in the sort of aftermath

363
00:24:53,556 --> 00:24:54,796
Speaker 1: of that or ever get a chance to talk with

364
00:24:54,956 --> 00:24:57,116
Speaker 1: Bud Powell, who was Richie Powell's brother. Do you know

365
00:24:57,116 --> 00:24:57,756
Speaker 1: how he took that?

366
00:24:58,356 --> 00:25:02,236
Speaker 2: I don't know how he took that note? No, I

367
00:25:02,276 --> 00:25:02,636
Speaker 2: don't know.

368
00:25:03,036 --> 00:25:06,876
Speaker 1: Did you feel like that band had more yet to do?

369
00:25:07,796 --> 00:25:11,196
Speaker 2: I think so? We think you didn't know. Clifford and

370
00:25:11,276 --> 00:25:14,636
Speaker 2: now I used to practice together all the time, and

371
00:25:15,116 --> 00:25:20,396
Speaker 2: besides the gigs, but we were trying to get closer,

372
00:25:21,076 --> 00:25:26,236
Speaker 2: you know, as to musicians playing a saxophone and trumpet.

373
00:25:26,316 --> 00:25:29,716
Speaker 2: So we were trying to get closer, trying to get

374
00:25:29,796 --> 00:25:34,796
Speaker 2: tighter with our things. We had to play ensemble and everything,

375
00:25:34,836 --> 00:25:37,596
Speaker 2: and I was new in the bands. I was trying

376
00:25:37,596 --> 00:25:41,676
Speaker 2: to learn the book and all of this stuff. But

377
00:25:42,396 --> 00:25:47,796
Speaker 2: besides that, there was this, besides the repertoire I was

378
00:25:47,836 --> 00:25:52,636
Speaker 2: playing with Clifford that he and I tried to always

379
00:25:53,076 --> 00:25:56,276
Speaker 2: get closer. So yeah, I think we had a lot

380
00:25:56,356 --> 00:25:56,556
Speaker 2: to do.

381
00:25:57,076 --> 00:26:00,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think they had anything to do with

382
00:26:00,196 --> 00:26:03,036
Speaker 1: you sort of stripping things back and go into like

383
00:26:03,036 --> 00:26:05,716
Speaker 1: that trio format the next year just just you on

384
00:26:05,836 --> 00:26:09,316
Speaker 1: sacks and then bass and drums. Was that related musically all?

385
00:26:10,796 --> 00:26:16,036
Speaker 2: I don't remember when I did the first trio albums that.

386
00:26:15,996 --> 00:26:19,756
Speaker 1: Would fifty around that time, yes, maybe six months later,

387
00:26:19,796 --> 00:26:21,676
Speaker 1: eight months later, it would have been just.

388
00:26:22,036 --> 00:26:26,356
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. If no, I don't believe so,

389
00:26:26,556 --> 00:26:33,596
Speaker 2: because I had always I had always uh enjoyed the

390
00:26:33,636 --> 00:26:41,556
Speaker 2: smaller instrumentation. You know. In fact, when our first met

391
00:26:41,556 --> 00:26:46,676
Speaker 2: Miles Davis, I was playing trio and we were playing

392
00:26:47,516 --> 00:26:51,796
Speaker 2: opposite Miles. You know, Miles was the first Stars and

393
00:26:51,956 --> 00:26:54,916
Speaker 2: we was a local band, and I think I was

394
00:26:54,996 --> 00:26:58,596
Speaker 2: playing trio at that time, So no, I think I

395
00:26:58,676 --> 00:27:04,756
Speaker 2: think the trios I did didn't stem from uh the

396
00:27:04,836 --> 00:27:07,076
Speaker 2: cofored Brown period.

397
00:27:07,756 --> 00:27:10,276
Speaker 1: Were you surprised how curious people found that idea of

398
00:27:10,316 --> 00:27:13,876
Speaker 1: you just playing in that small trio you based drums

399
00:27:13,916 --> 00:27:16,356
Speaker 1: like you did on Way out West or not at

400
00:27:16,356 --> 00:27:16,956
Speaker 1: the vanguard.

401
00:27:17,796 --> 00:27:20,556
Speaker 2: I hope that it would be received Well.

402
00:27:20,316 --> 00:27:22,596
Speaker 1: Well, I think it was. I think it absolutely was.

403
00:27:22,636 --> 00:27:24,076
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it's it's.

404
00:27:24,556 --> 00:27:24,796
Speaker 2: Uh.

405
00:27:25,076 --> 00:27:27,636
Speaker 1: Those seemed to have really stood the test of time

406
00:27:27,636 --> 00:27:29,916
Speaker 1: in an incredible way. But it's it's funny also just

407
00:27:30,116 --> 00:27:32,156
Speaker 1: in a way, how curious people find that you know

408
00:27:32,196 --> 00:27:34,556
Speaker 1: that that it's like, oh, whoa, you know, this isn't

409
00:27:34,556 --> 00:27:37,276
Speaker 1: this pianoist trio? You know, it seemed to sort of

410
00:27:38,116 --> 00:27:38,636
Speaker 1: well I.

411
00:27:38,676 --> 00:27:42,676
Speaker 2: Always liked that, and not play was a great piano players,

412
00:27:42,756 --> 00:27:46,356
Speaker 2: So there's no reflection on plane. But I liked the

413
00:27:46,396 --> 00:27:53,756
Speaker 2: idea of just a rhythm section and allowing me to

414
00:27:53,916 --> 00:27:59,116
Speaker 2: sort of be free, in a completely free just compose

415
00:27:59,436 --> 00:28:03,956
Speaker 2: things in my own in my own mind and create

416
00:28:04,076 --> 00:28:10,756
Speaker 2: the harmonies and the musical situations, and just came to me.

417
00:28:11,436 --> 00:28:14,796
Speaker 2: I had a rhythm behind me, I had the base,

418
00:28:14,916 --> 00:28:20,076
Speaker 2: and I had the jums to keep things moving. Yeah,

419
00:28:20,116 --> 00:28:24,676
Speaker 2: and I had the freedom to conceive of all of

420
00:28:24,716 --> 00:28:28,636
Speaker 2: these things. So that's why I liked flying Like that

421
00:28:28,796 --> 00:28:30,596
Speaker 2: had nothing to do with anything else.

422
00:28:31,196 --> 00:28:34,156
Speaker 1: Yeah, got you. There's some wild playing on those records

423
00:28:34,196 --> 00:28:37,516
Speaker 1: from you, some and even some incredible you know, evenm

424
00:28:37,556 --> 00:28:40,476
Speaker 1: other cats you know, like not at the Vanguard. There's

425
00:28:40,516 --> 00:28:43,596
Speaker 1: a couple of basils on that record that are great

426
00:28:43,636 --> 00:28:44,516
Speaker 1: as well. You know.

427
00:28:45,716 --> 00:28:49,556
Speaker 2: Yeah, I tried to get his guys that weren't afraid

428
00:28:49,676 --> 00:28:51,116
Speaker 2: to play without a piano.

429
00:28:51,476 --> 00:28:52,236
Speaker 1: Yeah.

430
00:28:52,396 --> 00:28:54,516
Speaker 2: See, a lot of guys just you know, would be

431
00:28:54,596 --> 00:28:58,156
Speaker 2: reticent to do that. Well they had, you know, because

432
00:28:58,196 --> 00:29:03,676
Speaker 2: the piano flits right in with the with a with

433
00:29:03,916 --> 00:29:08,236
Speaker 2: a base you know, like ham and eggs.

434
00:29:09,276 --> 00:29:11,476
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they I.

435
00:29:11,396 --> 00:29:16,316
Speaker 2: Mean, yes, oh wow, piano and drums here, base here

436
00:29:16,476 --> 00:29:20,676
Speaker 2: is playing years old they have. You know, those guys

437
00:29:20,716 --> 00:29:23,876
Speaker 2: can wake up in the middle of the night and

438
00:29:24,236 --> 00:29:28,716
Speaker 2: throw him and be writ in tune to the next note.

439
00:29:29,196 --> 00:29:32,956
Speaker 2: So it was something which you know, you're it was

440
00:29:33,116 --> 00:29:35,316
Speaker 2: somewhat of a challenge to them.

441
00:29:35,716 --> 00:29:39,076
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was wilbur Ware by the way, be aware.

442
00:29:39,396 --> 00:29:43,196
Speaker 2: Wilbur Aware. We used to have a joke about Bilber.

443
00:29:43,276 --> 00:29:46,716
Speaker 2: We used to call them wilburgh beware.

444
00:29:50,876 --> 00:29:54,316
Speaker 1: That's great. Alvin Jones also on drums on that just

445
00:29:54,396 --> 00:29:59,756
Speaker 1: so j Yeah, incredible, incredible trio man Man.

446
00:29:59,876 --> 00:30:03,196
Speaker 2: Then I had some other guys on that. On other

447
00:30:03,316 --> 00:30:06,516
Speaker 2: parts of the record, I added a Pete le Roker

448
00:30:07,196 --> 00:30:08,356
Speaker 2: and another guy.

449
00:30:08,396 --> 00:30:10,996
Speaker 3: From UH, Donald Bailey, Baltimore.

450
00:30:11,156 --> 00:30:11,476
Speaker 1: Donald.

451
00:30:11,516 --> 00:30:12,596
Speaker 2: Who is Donald Bailey?

452
00:30:12,996 --> 00:30:15,236
Speaker 1: I can't figure out who is Donald Bailey bass player?

453
00:30:15,236 --> 00:30:17,716
Speaker 1: I know there's a drummer, Donald Bailey, right, But there's

454
00:30:17,716 --> 00:30:20,076
Speaker 1: a drummer Donald Bailey. But is there also But I

455
00:30:20,116 --> 00:30:22,716
Speaker 1: can't find anything out about a bass player.

456
00:30:22,756 --> 00:30:25,436
Speaker 2: Donald Bailey was I know, I know he was very

457
00:30:26,356 --> 00:30:31,596
Speaker 2: under uh that's here for music. Nobody know much about him.

458
00:30:31,996 --> 00:30:32,996
Speaker 1: How did you know him?

459
00:30:33,276 --> 00:30:37,196
Speaker 2: My good friend went to school down there at UH.

460
00:30:38,196 --> 00:30:42,836
Speaker 2: I've watched college. I forget what it was, which is

461
00:30:42,916 --> 00:30:46,196
Speaker 2: you have to forgive me. You know, there's when you

462
00:30:46,316 --> 00:30:51,356
Speaker 2: get he said, he your your your memory, you know,

463
00:30:51,436 --> 00:30:59,116
Speaker 2: your short term memory. It goes, you know, like ten

464
00:30:59,196 --> 00:31:03,076
Speaker 2: minutes from now. But I need it now. But I

465
00:31:03,156 --> 00:31:08,716
Speaker 2: had Oh but anyway, no, he's here. Was very but

466
00:31:09,116 --> 00:31:14,316
Speaker 2: he was known in the area, you know, and he's

467
00:31:14,356 --> 00:31:16,636
Speaker 2: a good player. You know, he played good. I liked

468
00:31:16,716 --> 00:31:17,796
Speaker 2: him on those things.

469
00:31:18,036 --> 00:31:20,436
Speaker 1: I always thought maybe was someone that like just couldn't say,

470
00:31:20,516 --> 00:31:22,996
Speaker 1: like you couldn't say who it was for some contractual

471
00:31:23,076 --> 00:31:26,796
Speaker 1: reason or something, because I was like, good, yeah, I can't.

472
00:31:26,796 --> 00:31:30,876
Speaker 2: Know this guy is I know down really and uh

473
00:31:31,476 --> 00:31:35,716
Speaker 2: unfortunately he passed not too long after those records came out,

474
00:31:36,756 --> 00:31:40,276
Speaker 2: but they did a great, great job over your covering

475
00:31:40,396 --> 00:31:42,156
Speaker 2: me on that. Yeah.

476
00:31:42,196 --> 00:31:44,956
Speaker 1: Absolutely did the record Sonny Side Up that you did

477
00:31:44,996 --> 00:31:48,436
Speaker 1: with Dizzy Gillespie and Sunny Stitt in fifty nine. Oh yeah,

478
00:31:48,556 --> 00:31:49,436
Speaker 1: how did that come together?

479
00:31:49,796 --> 00:31:52,396
Speaker 2: Well? I came together to Norman Grange.

480
00:31:52,716 --> 00:31:54,916
Speaker 1: Okay, of course did you know.

481
00:31:54,836 --> 00:31:56,116
Speaker 2: Who Norman Grande is?

482
00:31:56,676 --> 00:31:58,516
Speaker 1: He did jazz at the Philharmonic, right, you put on

483
00:31:58,516 --> 00:31:59,116
Speaker 1: all those all right?

484
00:31:59,156 --> 00:32:05,756
Speaker 2: So he was promote jazz. Yeah, he did a lot

485
00:32:05,836 --> 00:32:11,476
Speaker 2: of promotion of different people. And his crowned segment was

486
00:32:11,596 --> 00:32:15,196
Speaker 2: judged the poo monic. But he was a big time

487
00:32:15,476 --> 00:32:21,076
Speaker 2: or jazz promoter. He ain't replaying someplace. See, he's got

488
00:32:21,116 --> 00:32:24,876
Speaker 2: to be a big fan of mine. And then he

489
00:32:24,876 --> 00:32:28,596
Speaker 2: he was his date, I mean he arranged a date.

490
00:32:29,516 --> 00:32:33,876
Speaker 2: That's it turned out to be, uh, Sunny and Sunny

491
00:32:33,956 --> 00:32:34,676
Speaker 2: and Dizzy.

492
00:32:34,996 --> 00:32:37,796
Speaker 1: Yeah. Were you friendly with Dizzy at that time or

493
00:32:37,836 --> 00:32:40,036
Speaker 1: did you know him? Decently well at all.

494
00:32:40,716 --> 00:32:43,556
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was friendly with Dizzy. You know, if you

495
00:32:43,716 --> 00:32:46,636
Speaker 2: know Dissy at all, you've got to be friendly with him.

496
00:32:49,316 --> 00:32:52,676
Speaker 2: Just that type of guy he's I mean, he's always

497
00:32:52,716 --> 00:32:59,956
Speaker 2: going to be something light and amusing that becomes part

498
00:33:00,036 --> 00:33:04,516
Speaker 2: of the conversation. And you know, Dissey was a wonderful guy.

499
00:33:04,676 --> 00:33:09,916
Speaker 2: Dissey with the guy that always was teaching people stuff.

500
00:33:10,436 --> 00:33:14,156
Speaker 2: You know, he don't really young Musard should be run

501
00:33:15,236 --> 00:33:18,316
Speaker 2: and he'd come in and you know, they showed to

502
00:33:18,996 --> 00:33:22,756
Speaker 2: get him on the piano and show the piano playing

503
00:33:22,916 --> 00:33:25,916
Speaker 2: some chords and sense chords, you know, stuff like that.

504
00:33:26,956 --> 00:33:30,636
Speaker 2: He was a great natural teacher. I mean, I mean

505
00:33:31,516 --> 00:33:34,556
Speaker 2: he wasn't trying to diminish the gad. I don't mean

506
00:33:34,716 --> 00:33:38,316
Speaker 2: like that. I mean we were happy to have Bisy

507
00:33:38,436 --> 00:33:42,836
Speaker 2: Gillespie there. That that was so you won't he wanted

508
00:33:42,916 --> 00:33:48,436
Speaker 2: to uh to teach, you know, not to dispact the

509
00:33:48,556 --> 00:33:52,156
Speaker 2: other guy at all, not in that sense in the least.

510
00:33:52,876 --> 00:33:55,996
Speaker 2: Just everybody was listening to what he was doing, saying.

511
00:33:55,796 --> 00:33:58,476
Speaker 1: And playing that record some side up was kind of

512
00:33:58,516 --> 00:34:01,636
Speaker 1: an anomaly, I feel like in your catalog at least,

513
00:34:01,636 --> 00:34:03,836
Speaker 1: you know, at the time, it felt maybe much more

514
00:34:03,876 --> 00:34:05,956
Speaker 1: like a dizzy record than anything else, which I think

515
00:34:06,036 --> 00:34:07,756
Speaker 1: is probably only natural.

516
00:34:08,476 --> 00:34:10,596
Speaker 2: I think it it's a dissy records it.

517
00:34:11,156 --> 00:34:12,636
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's kind of like the three of

518
00:34:12,716 --> 00:34:15,676
Speaker 1: you got. I mean, you know it's it's named Sonny Sided.

519
00:34:16,276 --> 00:34:20,276
Speaker 2: I mean there was Busy Gillespie. It was his session.

520
00:34:20,436 --> 00:34:23,236
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, yeah, no, no, no, that's fair, that's fair.

521
00:34:23,516 --> 00:34:24,516
Speaker 1: That's such a cool record.

522
00:34:25,196 --> 00:34:30,876
Speaker 2: Yeah, some people liked it a lot. Some people musicians

523
00:34:32,396 --> 00:34:36,596
Speaker 2: really thought that that was one of my best records.

524
00:34:37,036 --> 00:34:39,236
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you know what, you recorded that fifty seven,

525
00:34:39,316 --> 00:34:43,036
Speaker 1: but it comes out fifty nine. The next year, nineteen sixty,

526
00:34:43,796 --> 00:34:46,916
Speaker 1: Lee Morgan quoted you on a Jazz Messengers record. He

527
00:34:47,036 --> 00:34:51,356
Speaker 1: did your little no no down just they're just this

528
00:34:51,636 --> 00:34:55,596
Speaker 1: little phrase that you do. Oh really and yeah, and

529
00:34:55,676 --> 00:34:57,876
Speaker 1: in Lee quoted you on this song called the Opener

530
00:34:57,996 --> 00:35:00,236
Speaker 1: on a Jazz Messengers record just the next year.

531
00:35:00,316 --> 00:35:04,236
Speaker 2: Oh it's good. Yeah. No, Ley is a great player. Yeah,

532
00:35:04,916 --> 00:35:08,836
Speaker 2: Lay used to come whenever's playing with Matts and Confidence

533
00:35:09,116 --> 00:35:14,476
Speaker 2: Philadelphia at a club there. Lee would come by, you know,

534
00:35:15,116 --> 00:35:18,076
Speaker 2: to hat Clifford. I mean, so that's another.

535
00:35:17,836 --> 00:35:21,476
Speaker 3: Guy, I mean, the young guy that all loved Clifford

536
00:35:21,596 --> 00:35:21,996
Speaker 3: so much.

537
00:35:22,596 --> 00:35:25,316
Speaker 2: So anyway, that's when they met to me. And uh,

538
00:35:26,116 --> 00:35:31,316
Speaker 2: he used to play outside the club with his mouthweist alone.

539
00:35:31,876 --> 00:35:33,996
Speaker 2: He would show me what he could do just playing

540
00:35:34,076 --> 00:35:37,916
Speaker 2: his mouth best. And those life says, they say, hey, man,

541
00:35:38,036 --> 00:35:43,836
Speaker 2: that's good. Yeah, Lee Morgan, I mean, but he's great. Man,

542
00:35:43,956 --> 00:35:45,116
Speaker 2: he's a great player.

543
00:35:45,836 --> 00:35:47,116
Speaker 1: You never got to play with him, did you.

544
00:35:47,516 --> 00:35:50,516
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I don't think so.

545
00:35:50,836 --> 00:35:50,876
Speaker 1: No.

546
00:35:50,996 --> 00:35:54,956
Speaker 2: I think that's one one of the trumble players that

547
00:35:55,116 --> 00:35:55,676
Speaker 2: I missed.

548
00:35:56,156 --> 00:35:57,836
Speaker 1: Would have been great to hear you guys together.

549
00:35:57,956 --> 00:36:02,476
Speaker 2: Man, Yeah, wonder Rogerson must have been a yeah, I'm sure.

550
00:36:03,636 --> 00:36:07,236
Speaker 2: I'm sure I would have been inspired.

551
00:36:07,476 --> 00:36:12,236
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm curious. Is anyone you admire outside

552
00:36:12,276 --> 00:36:13,596
Speaker 1: of jazz in terms of musically?

553
00:36:14,396 --> 00:36:19,596
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I admire all of the great musicians from

554
00:36:19,676 --> 00:36:27,996
Speaker 2: those centuries. I like js Bach, I like Brahms, Debut

555
00:36:28,156 --> 00:36:36,716
Speaker 2: C Revel, I like Fat Swawer, Louis Jordan Korsms my favorite,

556
00:36:36,836 --> 00:36:40,396
Speaker 2: you know, and I like everybody. Yeah, I appreciate all

557
00:36:40,596 --> 00:36:41,396
Speaker 2: kinds of music.

558
00:36:41,996 --> 00:36:44,396
Speaker 1: Do you listen to music at all still? These days?

559
00:36:46,236 --> 00:36:46,716
Speaker 2: Sure? Three?

560
00:36:47,556 --> 00:36:48,796
Speaker 1: What do you what do you listen to? What do

561
00:36:48,796 --> 00:36:49,716
Speaker 1: you enjoy listening to?

562
00:36:49,996 --> 00:36:54,716
Speaker 2: Now? I don't listen to too much music. It's srange.

563
00:36:55,676 --> 00:37:00,436
Speaker 2: I've listened to soul much music in my life. I

564
00:37:00,596 --> 00:37:04,436
Speaker 2: still think music all the time. I'm still playing my horn,

565
00:37:05,236 --> 00:37:08,596
Speaker 2: even though I can't play my own anymore. I'm still

566
00:37:08,956 --> 00:37:13,036
Speaker 2: my imagine in passages that I would be fingering on

567
00:37:13,236 --> 00:37:19,876
Speaker 2: my instrumental, although I can't do that anymore. So now

568
00:37:20,516 --> 00:37:25,356
Speaker 2: listening to music. I love music, and occasionally I get

569
00:37:25,436 --> 00:37:31,116
Speaker 2: to hear music, aren't some of the radio stations I have.

570
00:37:31,396 --> 00:37:34,396
Speaker 2: Or I'll hear some music and I love it. But

571
00:37:34,676 --> 00:37:38,796
Speaker 2: I don't go out to listen to music anymore. I

572
00:37:38,876 --> 00:37:40,756
Speaker 2: don't mean go out in the street. I mean I

573
00:37:40,876 --> 00:37:44,236
Speaker 2: don't seek out music anymore.

574
00:37:44,756 --> 00:37:47,476
Speaker 1: Is it frustrating to hear in a sense since you

575
00:37:47,596 --> 00:37:50,036
Speaker 1: can't you just pick up your horn and play some

576
00:37:50,156 --> 00:37:50,996
Speaker 1: figures or anything.

577
00:37:51,396 --> 00:37:56,196
Speaker 2: To a certain extent, I wouldn't look very completely as frustration,

578
00:37:56,476 --> 00:38:00,596
Speaker 2: but that's part of it, because I hear something and

579
00:38:00,676 --> 00:38:04,476
Speaker 2: I fear what I would be doing what I can do,

580
00:38:06,036 --> 00:38:09,036
Speaker 2: so in a sense I was safe. There's not all

581
00:38:09,156 --> 00:38:15,596
Speaker 2: all frustration because I love music and listening to somebody

582
00:38:16,676 --> 00:38:20,636
Speaker 2: that I admire is great. It's a great feeling. So

583
00:38:22,196 --> 00:38:27,716
Speaker 2: frustration might come a little bit because I should contribute

584
00:38:27,836 --> 00:38:29,796
Speaker 2: being that it was part of.

585
00:38:29,876 --> 00:38:33,716
Speaker 1: Your scene, Sonny it is. It was a pleasure and

586
00:38:33,756 --> 00:38:35,836
Speaker 1: an honor speaking with you. I hope we get to

587
00:38:35,916 --> 00:38:36,356
Speaker 1: do it again.

588
00:38:36,916 --> 00:38:40,476
Speaker 2: Okay, man, take it even God bless you as.

589
00:38:40,356 --> 00:38:47,956
Speaker 1: Well, sir. All right man, Hi bye, Sonny. Thanks to

590
00:38:47,996 --> 00:38:50,876
Speaker 1: Sonny Rollins for taking us back to some of the earliest,

591
00:38:50,996 --> 00:38:55,556
Speaker 1: most important moments in American recorded music history. To hear

592
00:38:55,596 --> 00:38:58,356
Speaker 1: our favorite Sonny Rollins songs, check out the playlist at

593
00:38:58,516 --> 00:39:02,156
Speaker 1: broken Record podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to

594
00:39:02,196 --> 00:39:06,156
Speaker 1: our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcast,

595
00:39:06,436 --> 00:39:09,156
Speaker 1: where you can find all of our new episodes. You

596
00:39:09,156 --> 00:39:12,076
Speaker 1: can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record

597
00:39:12,156 --> 00:39:15,396
Speaker 1: is produced at help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrell, Ben Talliday,

598
00:39:15,596 --> 00:39:19,236
Speaker 1: Maeric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafe.

599
00:39:19,956 --> 00:39:23,716
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Mia Lobel. Broken Record is a

600
00:39:23,796 --> 00:39:26,716
Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. If you like this show and

601
00:39:26,796 --> 00:39:30,876
Speaker 1: others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus

602
00:39:30,996 --> 00:39:34,636
Speaker 1: is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted

603
00:39:34,676 --> 00:39:37,916
Speaker 1: ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look

604
00:39:37,956 --> 00:39:41,516
Speaker 1: for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscriptions, and if you

605
00:39:41,596 --> 00:39:44,036
Speaker 1: like the show, please remember to share, rate, and review

606
00:39:44,116 --> 00:39:47,036
Speaker 1: us on your podcast app or them us expec Kenny Beats.

607
00:39:47,356 --> 00:39:48,276
Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond.