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Speaker 1: Also media welcome TOI could out here the podcast being

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Speaker 1: recorded to were pays of pain killers.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host to be a wong I'm fucking dying. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it would be.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, phantomal episode even waiting for it here it is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And the other thing that's dying was dying has

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Speaker 2: died sort of was a bunch of French colonists in Algeria. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the French Empire as a whole.

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Speaker 2: One could say, yeah, thank God Jesus Christ, why did

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Speaker 2: you let these people have an empire? Terrible idea?

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, what's not an empire? The abroad France? Right,

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Speaker 3: like like the little parts of France which just happened

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Speaker 3: to be in Africa, totally a normal thing. Which particular

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Speaker 3: part of the French Empire? Are we talking about it?

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Speaker 3: Many many such cases of French French empire taking L's

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Speaker 3: not that that's unique to be also a British empire

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Speaker 3: to the load of els.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So today we're talking about Algeria, and I think

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Speaker 2: one of the things that I sort of realized about

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Speaker 2: how the Algerian Revolution is you remembered in the West

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Speaker 2: is okay, So there's there's the kind of the Frank

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Speaker 2: Herbert reaction where they saw people who were Muslim in

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Speaker 2: the streets and were like, holy shit, it went insane

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Speaker 2: for seventy years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, to.

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Speaker 2: Be fair, to be fair, that was also poorly partly

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Speaker 2: being driven mad by the Portland Dunes, which, like you know,

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Speaker 2: like I get sometimes sometimes you're driven you're driven completely

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Speaker 2: insane by dunes. But you know, so there's that's there's

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Speaker 2: there's a sort of reactionary memory of it. There's a

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Speaker 2: sort of memory that functions in inside of like the

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Speaker 2: American military where you know, Algeria's you remember it is

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Speaker 2: one of the sort of like examples of failed kind

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Speaker 2: of insurgency.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then there's the memory inside of the American left,

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Speaker 2: which is largely confined to Finon and the movie The

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Speaker 2: Battle of Algiers. Yep, classic movie, to be fair, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: great movie, like nothing nothing, a good good movie. However, coma,

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Speaker 2: this is a real issue because the Battle of Algiers again,

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Speaker 2: great movie ends in nineteen fifty seven. Finan, great theorist,

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Speaker 2: dies in nineteen sixty one. Now notably, Algeria gains independence

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty two. So okay. The issue with this is

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Speaker 2: that people kind of broadly know the outlines of the

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Speaker 2: first Algerian Revolution, but the second Algerian Revolution, the one

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Speaker 2: where the Algerian working class season is the control of

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Speaker 2: the means of production, attempts to run them autonomous league,

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Speaker 2: is just has completely faded into the mist of history.

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Speaker 2: I talk about it, no one has any idea what

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Speaker 2: the fuck I'm talking about. And this is kind of startling,

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Speaker 2: because you know, up until there's probably like there's like

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Speaker 2: a four year span where the Algerian Revolution is the

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Speaker 2: sort of like capital S capital R social revolution, like

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Speaker 2: it's the big one, is the one people all over

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Speaker 2: the world taking inspiration from, and then it kind of,

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Speaker 2: you know, it flounders out for reasons that we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk about, and also the culture revolution starts and

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Speaker 2: everyone lashes onto that. But it's sort of fascinating to

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Speaker 2: me that this the second part of the revolution, and

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Speaker 2: the part that everyone was really excited about, which is

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Speaker 2: the core of the revolution being workers self management, and

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Speaker 2: that being the sort of great theoretical innovation of Algeria

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Speaker 2: and socialism, that has just completely faded for memory. It's

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Speaker 2: just gone. And so today we're talking about that revolution. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: one of the most detailed studies on this I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: be citing from a lot is in Clegg's Worker Self

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Speaker 2: Management and AIA. Now this is a good book. However,

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Speaker 2: Comma Clegg is uh, he's he's a very specific kind

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Speaker 2: of Crimogeny Marxist guy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm familiar with that kind of guy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And so like the back third of this book

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Speaker 2: is him engaged in a protracted ideological war with phenomen

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Speaker 2: over the nature nature of revolutionary consciousness, which is largely

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Speaker 2: pointless and goes nowhere. So you know, but it is

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Speaker 2: a very very detailed and very useful account of what

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Speaker 2: actually happened after the First Revolution, like after the French

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Speaker 2: are forced to Pulo out of Algeria, and what happens

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Speaker 2: effectively is well, if we need to go back a

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Speaker 2: little tiny bit, so there are you know, there is

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Speaker 2: a a staggering slaughter of people who attempt to resist

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Speaker 2: French colonialism. Like a lot of the sort of techniques

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Speaker 2: that are going to be used in Vietnam, they are

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Speaker 2: going to be used all over the world, and kind

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Speaker 2: of insurgencies are developed in Algeria in this period. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to read a quote from Clagg about what they

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Speaker 2: were doing the use of air power in napalm to

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Speaker 2: clear cover made movement inside the country almost impossible. The

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Speaker 2: construction of mind and electrified barriers along the border with

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Speaker 2: Tunisia and Morocco kept the better trained and armed elements

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Speaker 2: of the army Deliberation Nationale from coming to support the

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Speaker 2: gorillas and moving in supplies. One of the most successful

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Speaker 2: moves encounter in gerrilla activity was the policy of regroupment,

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Speaker 2: initiated by General Chalet. This strategy, learned from their British

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Speaker 2: and Malaysia, involved moving the rural population out of areas

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Speaker 2: favorable to the gorillas and resettling them in camps under

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Speaker 2: military guard, and estimated two million peasants were treated this way,

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Speaker 2: creating vast social and economic problems for the future. So,

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Speaker 2: like they put two million people in concentration camps.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, according it a very group more is a

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Speaker 3: fucking exercise in like and marketing. Rarely have I seen

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Speaker 3: something so Nefario he named like, we're regrouping them parentheses

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Speaker 3: in a fucking concentration camp.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is this is a strategy that you know.

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Speaker 2: So the British sort of start doing this in Malaysia.

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Speaker 2: A lot of it's derived from attempts to counter you know,

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Speaker 2: and this isn't really an episode about that utter and revolution,

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Speaker 2: but I won't talk about this a little bit. It's

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Speaker 2: it's it's designed as a way to counter sort of

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Speaker 2: MAOIs insurgency campaigns, which is the sort of you know,

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Speaker 2: the becomes the new template for like thees. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: it's because it works really well, and you know, like

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Speaker 2: the key thing of MAOIs like well, I mean there's

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Speaker 2: a couple of things obviously, but like one of the

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Speaker 2: key elements of it is this is this line from Mao.

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Speaker 2: Is it like the gorilla moves to the people like

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Speaker 2: a fish moves through the sea. Right, So it's about

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Speaker 2: like it's about building social basis such that you know,

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Speaker 2: gorillas can move in and out of communities and not

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Speaker 2: get turned in and stuff and use them as terrain.

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Speaker 3: I've had that particular Mao phrase paraphrase to me. I

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Speaker 3: think sometimes why people are where it comes from outs

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Speaker 3: and people who probably have just sort of come to

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Speaker 3: it through their own understanding or or heard it but

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Speaker 3: not realize the source of it. People who are not

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Speaker 3: certainly not Maoists all over the world, like I've I've

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Speaker 3: heard it in in the Middle East. I've heard it

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Speaker 3: in Africa, I've heard it in Asia. It's it's it

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Speaker 3: is a very important thing, and like it. Yeah, it

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Speaker 3: does make Garrida war esier if you can rely on

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Speaker 3: the population.

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Speaker 2: This is something that's propagated through because because of the

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Speaker 2: success of sort of Mao's like gorilla insurgency, there's something

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Speaker 2: that's propagated through I mean through through obviously, like through

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Speaker 2: through communist parties, but I mean like a lot of

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Speaker 2: Islamist groups also pick it, like pick up a lot

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Speaker 2: of elements of it, because a lot of those groups

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Speaker 2: are trained in the Plos camps in the valley in Jordan,

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Speaker 2: and so like a lot of groups like all over

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Speaker 2: the world of completely unrelated ideologies all sort of picked

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Speaker 2: this stuff up. And the British response to this is

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Speaker 2: the British are fighting a communist insurgency in Malaysia and

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Speaker 2: they're like, okay, we're gonna do conscer ration camps for

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Speaker 2: our purposes. So obviously this is a you know, this

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Speaker 2: is an unfathomable atrocity, but it has enormous effects even

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Speaker 2: after the war ends, because suddenly, you know, okay, like

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Speaker 2: the war ends, the French are gone. But you know,

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Speaker 2: two million people have been taken from their homes and

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Speaker 2: locked in and locked in camps. And this has enormous

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Speaker 2: you know, I mean, this is this is enormous economic effects.

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Speaker 2: And the second thing that has really sort of stunning

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Speaker 2: economic effects are the Sore. There's been a class of

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Speaker 2: people in Algeria called the Colognes who are basically there

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Speaker 2: the colonists. They're not actually all French, a lot of

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Speaker 2: them are from other European countries, but they come to

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Speaker 2: be this sort of hardcore French ultranationalist, sort of fascist

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Speaker 2: turbo racists. I guess they're they're they're not quite the Rhodesians,

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Speaker 2: but they're they're only not quite the Rhodesians because they

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Speaker 2: didn't stay to fight it out. And when when the

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Speaker 2: French lose the war and when the French pull out,

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Speaker 2: these people just flee, like all of them were talking,

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Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of people just are gone. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to read another quote from Cleig, because you know, if

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Speaker 2: these people had merely left, I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: what's going to happen in this revolution goes a lot better.

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Speaker 2: But they didn't just leave. Quote in June, a policy

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Speaker 2: of scorched earth was declared, inaugurating an orgy of destruction.

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Speaker 2: With his dream crumbling, the colonist's response was to destroy

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Speaker 2: this world, which I think is a really sort of elegant.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's you very well written

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Speaker 3: and it's funny. It's this thing that again, like you

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Speaker 3: see replicated so often. There was this slogan that they

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Speaker 3: used at the start, the serience of a war like

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Speaker 3: asado wee been in the country.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's it's this real you know. So,

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Speaker 2: so what the what the colins end up doing is

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Speaker 2: they end up just destroying, Yes, everything they can get

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Speaker 2: their hands on. They're destroying houses, They're especially destroying any

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Speaker 2: kind of sort of factory of technical equipment, anything they

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Speaker 2: can find. They're burning their lighting on fire. And the

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Speaker 2: other thing about Okay, so Auxuria is a colonial economy, right,

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Speaker 2: and the structure of the colonial economy is such that

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Speaker 2: you know, if you are a anyone who has any

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Speaker 2: kind of technical or manager gerial experience are all colonists, right.

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Speaker 2: Everyone else in the country is either doing subsistence farming

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Speaker 2: or has been fed as like these this sort of

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Speaker 2: like seasonal workers or really really badly paid sort of

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Speaker 2: contract workers on the on these sort of like cash

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Speaker 2: crap agricultural farms, a lot of orange production and stuff

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Speaker 2: like that. And so when the colonists flee the country,

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Speaker 2: suddenly like the entire technical managerial class, everyone with technical experience,

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Speaker 2: and also all of the bosses and the entire bourgeoisie

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Speaker 2: are just gone. And this takes everyone by surprise. The

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Speaker 2: Ethelen had assumed the Ethlens the the kind of like

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Speaker 2: umbrella organization that carried out the revolution. They it kind

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Speaker 2: of falls apart very quickly because it's it's not really

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Speaker 2: a coherent ideological group. It's just the sort of banner

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Speaker 2: that everyone who was fighting kind of attaches themselves to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is quite common, right, like national friends, ye,

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Speaker 3: or like popular friends very often do this post fore.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and these are disintegrated. But they had all expected

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Speaker 2: that the colonists were going to stick around, and they

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Speaker 2: don't because they're turbo racists, right, And the thought of

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Speaker 2: having to live in an Algeria world by Algeria, this

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Speaker 2: was like nope, I will fucking literally light the world

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Speaker 2: on fire and flee to France. You know what else

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Speaker 2: is going to light the world on fire and cause

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Speaker 2: people to flee to France.

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Speaker 3: The products, products and services it's supporting to show.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so how how fucking good they are. It's gonna

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Speaker 2: it's going to cause the world to burn and make

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Speaker 2: people flee to France.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I have to think about that. When I think about,

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Speaker 3: like how big my pile of gold is, I think

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Speaker 3: that that match it's too small. I better just bend

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Speaker 3: all down and moved to France.

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Speaker 2: And we are back now enter enter here. The heroes

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Speaker 2: of this episode, the workers Council, or very specifically, so

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Speaker 2: this is this is a French this is a French colony.

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Speaker 2: So in France and in Spain and in sort of

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Speaker 2: I guess the Romance languages. There, there was a concept

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Speaker 2: called autogiion. I'm pronouncing it really badly because I'm reading

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Speaker 2: the French version of it and trying to pronounce it

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Speaker 2: half in Spanish, the only one of these languages I

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Speaker 2: can even sort of speak. But it so it means

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Speaker 2: self management, and it basically it has this context of

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Speaker 2: of sort of like workers democratic self management. Right, if

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Speaker 2: you're if you're doing atostone, you're like the workers of

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Speaker 2: a factory have taken the factory and not running it themselves.

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Speaker 2: The most prominent example and at this point of self

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Speaker 2: management is Yugoslavia. Now this it's very the Uslavian version

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Speaker 2: is very, very weird, but as a way basically to

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Speaker 2: tell the Soviets to fuck off, Yugoslavia adopts a very

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Speaker 2: different kind of model of socialism than everyone else's. So

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Speaker 2: they're models based on the quote unquote the withering away

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Speaker 2: of the state. So they're you know, you have basically

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Speaker 2: these like reasonably democratic, like workers co ops that are

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Speaker 2: the sort of that are sort of their productive basis

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Speaker 2: of society. And these these co ops sort of compete

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Speaker 2: against each other on the market. But other hand, there

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Speaker 2: is a like a very large level of workers control

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Speaker 2: that's different from you know, like the US, which is

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Speaker 2: just a pure dictatorship of your boss in the workplace,

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Speaker 2: tells you what to do, and if you don't do what,

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Speaker 2: you get fired. Yeah, And so Algeria that's there, has

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Speaker 2: their own version of of self management. But unlike Algeria,

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Speaker 2: which is sort of effectively imposed by the top down

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Speaker 2: from the Comnist party. In Algeria, what happens is you

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Speaker 2: have this this enormous mass of workers who used to

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Speaker 2: work on these plantations, used to work in factories. There's

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Speaker 2: these huge colonial agricultural estates. And what happens is with

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Speaker 2: with the entire ruling class gone. And when I say

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Speaker 2: the entire ruling class, we're we're talking from all the

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Speaker 2: way up from you know, the highest level government officials,

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Speaker 2: through all all of your sort of capitalist bosses, right

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Speaker 2: down to sort of the middle management guys are gone. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: all those people just have disappeared. So what happens is

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Speaker 2: workers start taking over all of their all of their workplaces,

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Speaker 2: and they start forming workers councils. Right now, this is

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Speaker 2: this is driven largely by I mean, there's there's there's

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Speaker 2: there's a few different drivers. There's we'll get to the

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Speaker 2: ideological aspect. A lot of it is that these people

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Speaker 2: have no money and no one else is going to

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Speaker 2: run it. So there the workers who have now sees

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Speaker 2: all of this stuff are like, Okay, well we're gonna

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Speaker 2: we're gonna get the money we need to survive by

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Speaker 2: running by running all the stuff ourselves.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so this sort of starts in nineteen sixty two

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Speaker 2: and it sweeps across the country very quickly. I mean

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of real regions where it never really

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Speaker 2: takes hold. But largely what's happening is that permanent workers

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Speaker 2: who had been who had been workers at these firms

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Speaker 2: seize control of them. This has benefits and downsize. The

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Speaker 2: benefit of it is so there's an attempt by the

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Speaker 2: sort of the new Algerian sort of bushwise either the

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Speaker 2: sort of like small faction of Algerian capitalists to buy

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Speaker 2: up all this land. And there's a bunch of really

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Speaker 2: funny stories of these guys buying these estates and showing

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Speaker 2: up and the Workers Committee just kicking them out. Yeah, yes, eternities,

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Speaker 2: this is extremely funny. Yeah, there's also issues. So part

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Speaker 2: of what's going on is this is this is the

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Speaker 2: sort of this is the permanent workers taking over the

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Speaker 2: stuff with their people, right, and so a lot of

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Speaker 2: times like they'll they'll kick out seasonal workers because yeah,

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Speaker 2: so it's not it's not perfect, and there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of issues with it, right because this is this is

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Speaker 2: all being formed effectively, spontaneously about a bunch of extremely

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Speaker 2: desperate people.

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Speaker 3: That's what I'm just so obviously like because it's me

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Speaker 3: the point of comparison, and I'm thinking of is the

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Speaker 3: Spanish Civil War, right yeah, and work is self management.

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Speaker 3: But there you have a workforce which is which has

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Speaker 3: been working towards collectivization for more than a decade in

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Speaker 3: some cases. And also, like this is the point actually

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Speaker 3: gets missed a lot in online discourse about the Spanish

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Speaker 3: Civil War, perhaps because people don't know as much as

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Speaker 3: they think they do that like there were anarchists in

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Speaker 3: all kinds of roles, Like when people talk about their

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Speaker 3: rooty column or whatever, like, there were absolutely anarchists, non

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Speaker 3: com missioned officers from the military who they relied on

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Speaker 3: heavily for advice. And the same is true with the

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Speaker 3: collectivized workplaces, right that there were anarchists in many roles,

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Speaker 3: you know, in shop stewards and things like that. Obviously

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Speaker 3: not in like the higher management roles. I think, yeah,

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Speaker 3: doing that is kind of incompatible with anarchism, and obviously

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Speaker 3: what we're dealing here with is anarchosyndicalism. For the most

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Speaker 3: part of the fire was more of a purest anarchist group,

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Speaker 3: but there you had people who'd been working towards us

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Speaker 3: for a long time, who have been planning for it,

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Speaker 3: and who did have people with a variety of experiences

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Speaker 3: in I think oversight might be a better word than

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Speaker 3: the management preps or like sort of organization. But they

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Speaker 3: were very successful. But that didn't just happen overnight. It

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Speaker 3: often gets presented as if it did, as if on

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Speaker 3: the eighteenth of July these people were just sort of

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Speaker 3: going to work and by the twentieth they were fully

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Speaker 3: formed anarchists running their own workplaces. But that's absolutely not

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Speaker 3: the case.

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Speaker 2: And jury is the exact opposite of this, which is, yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's there's a very low level of political consciousness. There's

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Speaker 2: organization is almost non existent, because so I mean the

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Speaker 2: kinds of organizations that it existed are you know, you

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Speaker 2: have these sort of vanguard cells, but those are largely rural.

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Speaker 2: And then you have there there are some unions, but

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Speaker 2: they're not very they're not very large because they've been outlawed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, break ground, Yeah, like unbelievableression. Colonial context is extremely important.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, obviously Native mayor is blaming Algerian workers for not

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Speaker 3: being Catalanic.

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Speaker 2: No, yeah, like this is this is this is the

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Speaker 2: French's fault and and you know, but but any such cases. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but this seizure really takes everyone by surprise, because all

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Speaker 2: of the sort of leaders of fl and all leaders

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Speaker 2: of the various factions that assumed that either they were

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Speaker 2: going to sort of do I don't know, there's a

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Speaker 2: ideological conflict, but they they they always assume that they're

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Speaker 2: going to do some kind of like giant state light

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Speaker 2: industrialization project, right, whether it's a socialist one, whether it's

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Speaker 2: more Islamist one. And then suddenly they are they are

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Speaker 2: now all you know, it's like, okay, well your economy

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Speaker 2: is now on the Yugoslavian uh self management model because

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Speaker 2: all of these workers have just seized all their workplaces.

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Speaker 2: Now that there are there are a few organizations that

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Speaker 2: are are politically very supportive of this. The the UGTA,

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Speaker 2: which is Algeria's big sort of trade union, are very

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Speaker 2: politically socialist and they they are really the only people

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Speaker 2: in this entire country who are who are an organized

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Speaker 2: political body who actually want to see this thing work.

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Speaker 2: And so they do a lot of work helping me,

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Speaker 2: helping workers set up their their committees and spreading the revolution.

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Speaker 2: Their plan is to use this against any attempt to

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Speaker 2: set up basically a dictatorship by uh, you know, it's okay,

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Speaker 2: and this is where it gets sort of interesting because

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Speaker 2: very explicitly they are trying to stave off sort of

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Speaker 2: Soviet style socialisticatorship, right they are, And their plan is

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Speaker 2: we're going to use We're going to use the workers

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Speaker 2: councils as the as the basis of of an actual

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Speaker 2: sort of workers democracy against again against the sort of

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Speaker 2: orthodox like Marcus Leninist stuff. And this is another thing

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Speaker 2: that's going on too, is the army is a lot

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Speaker 2: more orthodox Marxist Leninists than either the workers committees or

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Speaker 2: the unions, and so a lot in a lot of

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Speaker 2: parts of the countries in the West, the army just

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Speaker 2: sort of rolls through, knocks off the workers committees and

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Speaker 2: seizes the land for itself. And that's a fiasco. But

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Speaker 2: now now pretty very quickly Ben Bella, who emerges as

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Speaker 2: as the sort of as the leader of Algeria after

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Speaker 2: a set of political maneuvering that we're not going to

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Speaker 2: get into here, is basically forced to and in nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty three set a bunch of decrees saying that yeah,

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Speaker 2: these guys are people who run the economy, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: et cetera, but there's there are I want to talk

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Speaker 2: I want to actually get into something that is really

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Speaker 2: not talked about in ninety nine percent of the accounts

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Speaker 2: of this stuff, which is how do these councils actually work?

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Speaker 2: Because spoiler alert, this whole thing is going to fail

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Speaker 2: and all these people are going to be crushed, And

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Speaker 2: a lot of that has to do with how this

380
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Speaker 2: thing's set up, which is very badly because it is

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Speaker 2: a system designed by Marxists, and they're very sympathetic Marxist

382
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Speaker 2: to a broad extent. But unfortunately the way that these

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Speaker 2: that this is set up is that, Okay, so there's

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Speaker 2: an assembly, right, that's like all the workers in the

385
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Speaker 2: firm are in this assembly. The assembly elects this worker's council,

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Speaker 2: which has like ten people, and then that council elects

387
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Speaker 2: the management committee, which is the people who actually do

388
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Speaker 2: the management. So it has a president and there's also

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Speaker 2: a director supposed to represent the interest of the state

390
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Speaker 2: or whatever. And the issue with this is that it's

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Speaker 2: designed specifically to keep power out of the hands of

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Speaker 2: workers directly, right that that giant assembly it can't actually

393
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,360
Speaker 2: make policy. The only thing they can do is approve

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Speaker 2: plans or disapproved plans set down by the management committee.

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Speaker 3: Got it, okay. And these people at the management committee

396
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Speaker 3: wire presumably like representatives as opposed to delegates.

397
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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, they're the representatives. They also have three

398
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Speaker 2: year terms and it may not I think they can,

399
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Speaker 2: but it's really hard. And and the other thing that

400
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 2: that that sort of destroys this is that they those

401
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 2: they there's a lot of sort of like election rigging

402
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 2: by the state who doesn't want these things to be

403
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 2: actual sort of democratic and the the and that this

404
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 2: leads into the bigger issue, which is state control. And

405
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Speaker 2: this is this is where I think, really this is

406
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Speaker 2: something that Clegg doesn't get into much because Clegg is

407
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Speaker 2: a Marxist, but this is where the Marxism of it

408
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 2: all really comes into play. But first, do you know

409
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Speaker 2: who's not a Marxist?

410
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Speaker 3: Oh yes, almost certainly.

411
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Speaker 2: Yeah, not Marxists. I think we I think we can

412
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:11,639
Speaker 2: say not Marxists. All right, we are back. So the

413
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Speaker 2: biggest issue here, and this is something that was kind

414
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Speaker 2: of true in both Algeria and in the others kind

415
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Speaker 2: of big Marxist self management experiments in Chile, which is

416
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 2: that these the self managing firms don't have control over

417
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Speaker 2: a lot of the things that they need right, So

418
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Speaker 2: in Algeria, when when when the state essentially tries to

419
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 2: absorb all of this stuff, when it when it gets

420
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 2: sort of legitimized under under these decrees U there are

421
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Speaker 2: a lot of issues. One is that these self managing

422
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 2: organizations don't have control over their own money. So they're yeah,

423
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Speaker 2: you're paid, You're getting paid by the state, right and

424
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Speaker 2: you so you give the state your money and then

425
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Speaker 2: they they pay you. And this becomes a real issue

426
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Speaker 2: because the state goes, oh will the people in these

427
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 2: self managing things are act like privileged workers, so they

428
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 2: have permanent pay freezers. And also you can't reinvest your

429
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Speaker 2: profits back into the firm, which is a real issue.

430
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Speaker 3: It's like a horrible combination of like and cap and

431
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 3: like styalinists like it without Yeah, I don't, I don't

432
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Speaker 3: want to like derail us too much. But this again,

433
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 3: like it's it's.

434
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 2: So much worse than the Spanish system. It's so much worse,

435
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 2: Like every part of it is set up to fail.

436
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think this should always get This is

437
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 3: the sort of discourse I am now going to derail that.

438
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,959
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. This is the kind of like the online

439
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 3: like hammer and sickle in bio discourse that we that

440
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 3: we see so often, right, and you don't have to

441
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 3: pay attention to these people, and like you probably shouldn't,

442
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 3: but just just to like put it out there, I

443
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 3: think like an archao syndiclysm is right there. And it

444
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 3: allows for the like unions and syndicate which over overlook

445
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 3: a whole industry to coordinate between work it's committees and

446
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 3: ensure that you know, things get done and people get

447
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 3: treated with dignity, and and they also make enough money

448
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 3: or have access to the resources that they need to survive.

449
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 3: And when we try and like cut the corners off

450
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 3: this or kind of make a little college between this

451
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 3: and and barkist Leninism or state socialism, like neither thing

452
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 3: works and we just end up with this kind of

453
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 3: terrible hodge podge in which it doesn't it doesn't function, right,

454
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 3: But that that doesn't necessarily mean that work is self

455
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 3: management itself is invalid as a concept.

456
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 2: It Yeah, and and and there's there's a lot of

457
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 2: things here that you know.

458
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: So the.

459
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 2: One of the big criticisms of this at the time

460
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 2: by by social intellectuals is people are going, well, there's

461
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: not coordination uh, you know, the firms competing against each other.

462
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 2: There's not broad economic coordination. It's like, well, yeah, that's

463
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 2: because that's because the state controls all their finances. They

464
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 2: don't they don't have the ability to do coordination with

465
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 2: each other. And yeah. The big thing, and this is

466
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 2: the thing that really actually kills this is that so

467
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 2: Cleig calls it marketing is controlled by the state. But

468
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 2: that's not quite what's going on. The other thing that's

469
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: controlled by the state is the state isn't has the

470
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 2: responsibility or and is the people who are in charge

471
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 2: of selling the products. And they just fucked this up completely.

472
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 2: They can't they can't figure out how to get like

473
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 2: the fruit that's being produced sold, right. The problem here

474
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: isn't is an output. Is that the the state is

475
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: doing things like I mean sometimes sometimes they they'll have

476
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 2: all these oranges. So a lot of the the Algeria

477
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 2: and agricultural economy is set up as a cash crop

478
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 2: economy and you're supposed to fight you so okay, and

479
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 2: it's it's never really worked very well. But the Algerian

480
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 2: state just completely shits the bed. And there's I mean,

481
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: this is like i mean, we're talking like tons of

482
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 2: fruit is just sitting there rotting a lot of the time.

483
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: What they do is they just dump in onto the

484
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 2: French market and for like basically zero cost and so

485
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 2: and you know, and so you get these things, and

486
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 2: you look at the sort of profit lost thing, and

487
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 2: you know, the sort of like right wing parts of

488
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 2: the state and this, Oh, I guess you like, I

489
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 2: guess they are right one. But the the sort of

490
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 2: anti self manager parts of theysteria going oh, well, look

491
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 2: at these these firms. They're hemorrhaging all this money. It's like, well, yeah,

492
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 2: they're hemorrhaging money because instead of actually selling the goods,

493
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 2: you guys are throwing all of their goods into a dumpster.

494
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 2: Like yeah, of course it's not working, right, Yeah.

495
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 3: And it's a struggle of like post colonial economies. If

496
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 3: you in the French colonial system, like they've decided that

497
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 3: Algeria is going to be the place that makes oranges

498
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 3: for the entirety of the French I'm just sort of

499
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 3: manufacturing example empire here. Then evidently what once you once

500
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 3: you secede from that empire, you now have a fuck

501
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 3: ton more oranges than you need for Algerias. You're now

502
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 3: going to have to navigate and you might not have

503
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 3: enough well.

504
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 2: And they can't even figure how to sell to other

505
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 2: Algerians too. That that that's that's the that's the problem

506
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: with the sort of state control of the market is

507
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 2: they can't they can't do either because they're completely because

508
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 2: the bureaucrats that are running this are completely incompetent.

509
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, man, I mean one can ague to states

510
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 3: incapable of at eating resorts is equally orfairly. But yes,

511
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,719
Speaker 3: even so they've they've done a bad job even by

512
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 3: state standards.

513
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and and the and the and the subsequent

514
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 2: issue too is is because all of the finances are

515
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 2: controlled by this state, even the firms that are profitable,

516
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 2: and there are firms that are very profitable, they can't

517
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 2: reinvest their profit back into you know, improving efficiency or

518
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 2: do or doing the basic things that workers need, which

519
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 2: is having money to eat, because that money is that

520
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 2: all of that sort of capital is just being eaten

521
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: by the state. And so you know, there's an quote

522
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 2: Clay again, as the president of a self managed farm

523
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 2: said to me in nineteen sixty five, in this situation,

524
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 2: how can we persuade the worker that he is no

525
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: longer working for a capitalistic exploiter and like, well, yeah,

526
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: he objectively is right, he is, like the state is

527
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 2: stealing all of his money and then doing some stupid

528
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 2: bullshit with it.

529
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. I love that. They're like they're not quite joining

530
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 3: the dots there, like, yeah, these guys don't seem to

531
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 3: be getting it. Like maybe maybe they do get it.

532
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: And this is this is one of these things where

533
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 2: you know, like I I Cleig, Cleig doesn't really draw

534
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 2: this line because he just I mean Cleig just refuses

535
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 2: to talk about either Hungary or the Spanish Revolution at all.

536
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, and.

537
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 2: Well he's a mouth, like that's the thing. He he

538
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 2: he is a he is a pro worker self management guy, right,

539
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 2: but he's a Marxist pro worker self management guy. So

540
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 2: she's distributing the failure this largely to like, well, there

541
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 2: wasn't sufficient consciousness. So it's like, well, no, like this system,

542
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 2: even if everyone wanted it to work, this system couldn't

543
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 2: have worked because it was set up in such a

544
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 2: way that it was. And this is something you know,

545
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 2: this is the part of why I want to talk

546
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: to you about. This was that if you look at

547
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: the way that the that the Spanish system is set up, right,

548
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 2: It's it's built off of coordination, like basically like sectoral

549
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 2: coordination between everyone who's doing a thing. Right, It's built

550
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: on resource sharing. If I'm remembering my stuff, I mean

551
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: they have basically they have a banking union, and people

552
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 2: put their profits into the into the banking union, and

553
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 2: then people can get money from the banking union to

554
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 2: reinvest in other places.

555
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's correct. It's also like, yeah, this,

556
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 3: I guess would that be called vertical integration if it's

557
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 3: the whole sector, even if it's.

558
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 2: They do this thing which takes advantage of both of

559
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 2: the advantages of self management gives you, which is one

560
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 2: like and like sort of you know, and it's like

561
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 2: socialist self management.

562
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: Right.

563
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 2: You have the advantage of scale, which is that you're

564
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 2: now instead of competing as each other, you're now coordinating

565
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 2: an entire sector, right, and you're you're producing stuff that

566
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 2: you're producing stuff for need. And then on the other hand,

567
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: you have the other thing that's supposed to be the

568
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 2: advantage of self management, which is that the workers themselves,

569
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 2: who are the people who are supposed to understand the

570
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: production process the best, can make decisions over how they're

571
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 2: going to do things. But then if you look at

572
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: the Algerian system, because it's because it's set up by Marxists,

573
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 2: it's specifly designed such that basically like you're you're, you're

574
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 2: instead of you actually managing yourself, you're you're just electing

575
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 2: your boss and then your boss manages, right, Yeah, and

576
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: that's not actually good. This is and it's weird because

577
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: looking at this, right, this is actually a worst system

578
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 2: in terms of self management, I think in a lot

579
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 2: of senses than the Chinese one, because the Chinese system

580
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: is not designed for self management. But you can't fire people.

581
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: So because because you can't fire people, you have to

582
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 2: listen to what people think and what people sort of do.

583
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: Is this system, I don't know. It pisces me off

584
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 2: because this is a revolution that very very easily could

585
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 2: have worked, but it was you know, there's there's intentional

586
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 2: sabotage by the state because most of the sectors of

587
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 2: the state don't want this to work.

588
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 3: And then.

589
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 2: Just structurally from the way it's set up, it's it's

590
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 2: it's doomed to fail from the beginning. And the consequence

591
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 2: of this is that in Nice sixty five ben Bella

592
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: gets overthrown in a coup by another sort of but

593
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 2: basically the army, a sort of state socialist faction of

594
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 2: the army, and they hold on to power by basically

595
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 2: turning Algeria into an oil economy. Yeah, and dismantling this

596
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: entire thing. And it, I don't know, it makes me

597
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 2: really angry because the the the like the actual Algerian

598
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 2: ruling class had the right idea and then they just

599
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 2: got completely fucked by everyone who was supposed to be

600
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 2: leading them or you know, the people who were supposed

601
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 2: to be selling the stuff that they made, people who

602
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 2: are supposed to be reinvesting, all the people who ended

603
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: up with the financial control just completely screwed them. And yeah,

604
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,719
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's it's it's really it's it's it's

605
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: really depressing in a lot of ways. But on the

606
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 2: other hand, right, like it does, it doesn't. It doesn't

607
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: have to go like this, Right, you don't have to

608
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 2: hand control of your workplace over to some fucking guy

609
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 2: in the Department of Agricultural Waste Management or whatever so

610
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,959
Speaker 2: he can use your origines for fertilizer. Like you can

611
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 2: simply not do this.

612
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I don't know the exact situation that

613
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 3: these workers found themselves in, and maybe there was you know,

614
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 3: like a degree of sort of need to get reproducing

615
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 3: in order to solve hunger issues.

616
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 2: But yeah, you simply do not have to do that.

617
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 3: As many examples, I'm thinking of the collectivized farms in

618
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 3: Spain as well, because perhaps they would have been a

619
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 3: better example, right, I guess there it was slightly different

620
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 3: because it was somewhat of a collectivized community that in

621
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 3: turn collectivized the land as opposed to collectivizing the agricultural labor.

622
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 3: And then you have this sort of source of labor

623
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 3: which is not inherently tied to the land in that

624
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 3: like you know, when when there was a need, like

625
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 3: for instance, I'm writing a book right now and then

626
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 3: writing about the Druti column, and like they would because

627
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 3: they had less rifles than they had fighters, they would

628
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 3: rotate their fighters off the front line during the harvest

629
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 3: time and have people help with the harvest, and then

630
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 3: they didn't like need those people the rest of the year. Right,

631
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 3: So they were able to incorporate like temporary surgeries in

632
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 3: labor without it being like destructive to their model, because

633
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 3: it was the idea was like a collective community as

634
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 3: opposed to a collective as opposed to like just the

635
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 3: workplace being this island of a pseudo collectivization, like like

636
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 3: you're saying in Algeria. Also, shout out to the Iron

637
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 3: column who I've been writing about recently, who solved their

638
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 3: supply side issues by leaving the front line and raiding

639
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 3: the cops because they didn't have enough guns either, so

640
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 3: they simply took them from the cops. Yeah. Incredibly based, Yeah,

641
00:34:58,480 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 3: very big.

642
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think that's it's kind of the

643
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 2: point that I want to end this on, which is that,

644
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 2: you know, this is something that that contributes to the

645
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 2: collapse of Yugoslavia too, is that if you know, the

646
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:18,280
Speaker 2: the dichotomy that got forced on people in the twentieth

647
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 2: century was you can either choose two. Okay, so your

648
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: choices are you get a you get a sort of

649
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,879
Speaker 2: you get a stalinist planned economy completely run by the state,

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00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,879
Speaker 2: or you get a bunch of workers cooperatives competing against

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00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 2: each other. And those are, like you're those are your

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00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: two models of socialism, and those both suck and both

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00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 2: are set up to fail from the beginning because they're

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00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 2: not actually you know, you're you're, you're, you're, you're not

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00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 2: actually doing the thing, You're not actually having the entire

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00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:54,280
Speaker 2: the entire class as a class, you know, abolishing itself

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00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,399
Speaker 2: and then also managing managing production in such a way

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00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 2: that people are cooperating to produce what people need instead

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00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:05,439
Speaker 2: of everyone fighting over like either well, instead of either

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00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 2: the state setting a steel quota and having that be

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00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 2: the entire goal of the economy, or like seventeen co

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00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,720
Speaker 2: ops and the like both producing all producing the exact

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00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 2: same kind of coffee. Try to figure out who can

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00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 2: produce it more cheaply.

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00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, we we can do better, Yes we can, and

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00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 3: we have. And what we should describe for I guess

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00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 3: I know. If people want to read about the Spanish Revolution,

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00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 3: there's a ship ton of books on libcom. I would

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00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 3: say's book is pretty good in a Spanish Revolution. Mary

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00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 3: Bookchin has a book that the heroic he is of

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00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 3: Spanish anarchism. Able Paz has many books. Yes, you can

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00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 3: spend time on libcom and read a lot about collective

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00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 3: production in the Spanish Revolution, and for free, which is nice.

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00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, this's been tickel happen here, go take over your

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00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 2: workplace and then also help everyone else take over theirs

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00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 2: and coordinate with each other.

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00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, that would be very nice, and then we'll turn

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Speaker 3: an interview with you on the podcast Yay.

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Speaker 1: It could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

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Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening,