Speaker 1: I think we have the best legal system.
Speaker 2: It's just the people that implement they get lost along
Speaker 2: the way and forget what their job really is.
Speaker 3: He just kept on trying to remind me that who
Speaker 3: was in authority, who was in control, and how easy
Speaker 3: it was for my body to be found in any
Speaker 3: alley of New York City.
Speaker 4: It's a tough prison when you have the guards going
Speaker 4: against you because they are the biggest gang in the prison.
Speaker 4: They do that.
Speaker 2: They'll give a guy a life sentence and go home
Speaker 2: in eat spaghetti like it was nothing.
Speaker 3: And anybody that said, well, why would you confess to
Speaker 3: something that you didn't do? My question to them will
Speaker 3: be why wouldn't you confess when somebody's threatening to kill
Speaker 3: your life?
Speaker 1: You judge?
Speaker 2: He said, how you feel? I said, I'm okay. He said, well,
Speaker 2: the days you're lucky day you're going home.
Speaker 4: This is wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with
Speaker 4: Jason Flamm.
Speaker 5: Today we have two guests and I feel really excited
Speaker 5: about today's episode.
Speaker 4: We have Antoine Day. Antoine Day sixty years for murder,
Speaker 4: twenty five years for attempted murder.
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety two, Antoine Day was found guilty of
Speaker 1: the murder of one man and attempted murder of another
Speaker 1: outside a liquor store on Chicago's West Side.
Speaker 5: Convicted in nineteen ninety two, dexonerated in two thousand and two.
Speaker 4: Antoine Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for having.
Speaker 5: Me, And with Antoine, he brought a luminary in the
Speaker 5: criminal justice reform movement. Laura Caldwell and Laura is an
Speaker 5: accomplished author of many many books novels, also professor at
Speaker 5: Loyola in Chicago and the found of the Life After Innocence.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Lai at Loyola University Chicago School of Law.
Speaker 4: Got it. But let's go back to the beginning. You
Speaker 4: came from Illinois.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, West side of Chicago.
Speaker 5: And you were a musician, and you had some stuff
Speaker 5: going on at the time that everything went haywire.
Speaker 4: Right. It was a murder that happened at a craps game,
Speaker 4: right right.
Speaker 5: Two people shot Thomas Peters and James Coleman, and Peters
Speaker 5: died and Coleman was wounded, and they're out looking for
Speaker 5: the suspects.
Speaker 4: How'd you get mixed up?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 2: I got mixed up because you know, I didn't come
Speaker 2: from that real cush community.
Speaker 1: You know, I come from.
Speaker 2: A very hard heart community, you know, the West side
Speaker 2: of Chicago. Even right now, it's the top murder has
Speaker 2: the top murder rate in the.
Speaker 4: State and one of the top of the country.
Speaker 1: Yeah in the country. Yeah it is.
Speaker 2: So I lived, as I live now in its same community,
Speaker 2: and I also I work in the second largest murder
Speaker 2: rate in the country in Lindale. So how it happened
Speaker 2: was I was known in the community because I was
Speaker 2: in the street. You know, I did some things in
Speaker 2: the street. Today I wouldn't be so proud of. But
Speaker 2: you know, a young kid, you know, you did some things,
Speaker 2: and so you meet.
Speaker 4: People, but not necessarily violent thing.
Speaker 2: No, nothing violent, had nothing to do with violence. I
Speaker 2: sold drugs, you know, I sold marijuana. I did what
Speaker 2: most young guys my age do.
Speaker 4: So okay, So you were I was known.
Speaker 2: And then I was a musician. We played all the
Speaker 2: community of fast concerts. We did a lot of things.
Speaker 2: And I lived in the community, but in this particular
Speaker 2: community I lived in. The guys that actually got killed
Speaker 2: stayed only a block away from my home from where
Speaker 2: I lived. He stayed the next block over, and I
Speaker 2: didn't know them. They didn't know me, so when the
Speaker 2: incident occurred, they said that it was a black vehicle,
Speaker 2: so right away they tagged all the black vehicles in
Speaker 2: the area. I had two black vehicles. I had a
Speaker 2: station Wagon. I'm a car man, you know, I love cars.
Speaker 2: So I had a station Wagon that was fixed up,
Speaker 2: and I had a Chevy Blazer that was also fixed up.
Speaker 2: So these two cars stay parked in front of my home.
Speaker 2: So when the police ran an icing plate, they had
Speaker 2: my name. We had played in New Orleans. It was
Speaker 2: raining really hard, so when we came back that morning,
Speaker 2: it was a car to my door. So I took
Speaker 2: the car to the investigator's car, Detective Condony, I think
Speaker 2: it was.
Speaker 4: I called him.
Speaker 1: I said, you left a car to my door for what.
Speaker 2: He said, well, I want you to come in and
Speaker 2: talk to me about some things that took place over
Speaker 2: the weekend. I said, well, I wasn't here for the weekend.
Speaker 2: So he had the conversation. He said, well, just come in.
Speaker 2: He asked me what did I look like? I said,
Speaker 2: what you mean, when do I look like? He said, so,
Speaker 2: what are your features? Are you a big guy? Your
Speaker 2: little guy? And I'm like, why would you ask me that,
Speaker 2: shouldn't you be telling me you're looking for me? I'm
Speaker 2: not looking for you. Then he said, well, the story
Speaker 2: was that you were, you know, about six' to two like,
Speaker 2: Complex AND i, said, no that's not. Me he, said
Speaker 2: so you shouldn't have no.
Speaker 4: Problem how tall are?
Speaker 1: YOU i gotta be about five, ten probably used to be.
Speaker 1: Taller you were number.
Speaker 5: Six, too and like, complected you, KNOW i like. Complected and,
Speaker 5: yeah so you didn't fit the.
Speaker 2: Description NO i, didn't SO i thought maybe they just
Speaker 2: got my, name so let me go. In so WHEN
Speaker 2: i went, in he started asking me about my, car, said,
Speaker 2: WELL i have two. Vehicles is? Black so he went
Speaker 2: over the thing with the. Car he asked, me had
Speaker 2: anybody been driving the?
Speaker 3: Car?
Speaker 2: Sat, no my cars haven't haven't, moved been sitting all.
Speaker 2: Week so you begin to ask me about DID i
Speaker 2: know these particular.
Speaker 1: People i'm saying, NO i don't. Know don't. FORGET i
Speaker 1: took a lawyer in with.
Speaker 5: ME i, mean let's addaly. This you were a thousand
Speaker 5: miles away right.
Speaker 4: When the thing.
Speaker 5: Happened, right you didn't fit the, description, right but still
Speaker 5: growing up in that type of, environment you know that
Speaker 5: the police are capable of pulling some thirty tricks, right And, chicago,
Speaker 5: unfortunately is as infamous as, anywhere with all the scandals
Speaker 5: that have happened, there very well. Known so you hired
Speaker 5: to learn, though because you're, thinking you, KNOW i better
Speaker 5: BE i better just take every. Exactly so you hired
Speaker 5: this lawyer and then tell us the.
Speaker 2: Story i've never been one to trust the police, anyway
Speaker 2: because they've done a lot of things in the, past
Speaker 2: SO i KNEW i should maybe take this lawyer in with.
Speaker 1: Me SO i called.
Speaker 2: Him he, said, SURE i, come and you, KNOW i, said,
Speaker 2: MAN i just to make sure this go. Right you,
Speaker 2: KNOW i KNOW i haven't done, anything SO i want
Speaker 2: to make sure this goes. Right he, said, okay he comes.
Speaker 2: In he came to my mom's, house met me at
Speaker 2: my mother's, house and we went to the police. Stay
Speaker 2: how far is that maybe two. Miles So i'm sitting
Speaker 2: in the interview, room, well not an interview. Room it's
Speaker 2: just a, room, big, big open, space maybe sixty seventy
Speaker 2: chairs in this.
Speaker 1: Room i'm sitting in a.
Speaker 2: Chair it's another guy sitting in a, chair you, know
Speaker 2: maybe ten feet away from. Me you, know we're just
Speaker 2: Talking we've been sitting there so, Long so now we
Speaker 2: begin to. Talk i'm, like, MAN i don't know why
Speaker 2: they got me, Here he said me.
Speaker 1: Either. Man they brought me in here and just made,
Speaker 1: me you, know sit.
Speaker 2: Here i've been sitting there for the longest because he
Speaker 2: was actually here BEFORE i here and were just sitting there.
Speaker 2: Talking then the detective came. In he, said, look are
Speaker 2: you willing to stand a? LINEUP i sent a? Lineup
Speaker 2: so Now i'm looking for my. Lawyer, logical where's my?
Speaker 2: Lawyer where was it for this?
Speaker 1: Lineup? Right he was.
Speaker 2: Gone he had left a message that he was going
Speaker 2: to his daughter's birthday.
Speaker 1: Party so he left me in the police.
Speaker 4: Station and you paid him five thousand.
Speaker 1: Dollars he got five grand out of me.
Speaker 5: To drive you two. Miles that's like twenty five hundred.
Speaker 5: Miles that's not not it's not bad. Man that's, incredible you.
Speaker 5: Know SO i Just i'm, SORRY i. Can't that's. CRAZY
Speaker 5: i got to take him.
Speaker 2: Pause how he got five thousand in the. Beginning let
Speaker 2: me just MAKE i gave him twenty five. Hundred that
Speaker 2: was going to the police, station, right and if anything
Speaker 2: else had, occurred THEN i would have gave him the
Speaker 2: rest of, it so and it. DID i guess that
Speaker 2: was the part of the. Setup so now he gets
Speaker 2: all his money if he leave and THEN i get.
Speaker 2: Arrested SO i felt like it was from the beginning
Speaker 2: it was a. Setup so he had an incentive to
Speaker 2: get you.
Speaker 4: ARRESTED i. Believe, so oh my, God, well, OKAY i
Speaker 4: mean that's because.
Speaker 1: What else could it.
Speaker 2: Be he, Left he didn't even start his job to finish.
Speaker 2: It so the start was to be there for questioning if,
Speaker 2: anything the.
Speaker 5: Whole, conversation he wasn't, There so you're on your own,
Speaker 5: right and then what. HAPPENS i want to Bring laura
Speaker 5: into this conversation because she's so familiar with all this
Speaker 5: kind of nons she know better than. THAT i Think
Speaker 5: antoine's case is a roadmap how not to do.
Speaker 6: Things it's also a roadmap in a sense of what
Speaker 6: happens when you're. Innocent when you're, innocent you're always happy
Speaker 6: to talk to someone because, frankly you know you didn't do.
Speaker 6: It but how smart to get a lawyer at least
Speaker 6: before you do talk to someone on something you don't.
Speaker 6: Know so that was such a smart. Move we usually
Speaker 6: hear people go into the station all the. Time not
Speaker 6: everybody's smart enough to bring a. Lawyer unfortunately for, him
Speaker 6: the lawyer was very negligent and left and didn't come.
Speaker 1: Back they then.
Speaker 6: Put him in a lineup and the two gentlemen he
Speaker 6: was sitting with the cops actually we now, know said
Speaker 6: go ahead and pick that gentleman. Out later one of
Speaker 6: them quickly recanted and so it is not that, guy
Speaker 6: but it was too. Late they've been identified and Off antoine.
Speaker 2: Was so you got to remember these two. Guys both
Speaker 2: of these guys was heroin, addicts you. Know and the
Speaker 2: one GUY i think Was coleman who, said he, said,
Speaker 2: man they KNEW i was a dope thing when they arrested.
Speaker 2: Me he, SAID i would say my mother Killed kennedy
Speaker 2: if they had made me do.
Speaker 1: It you.
Speaker 2: Know he said that because this guy came to court
Speaker 2: and he. Apologized coleman is the only one who. Apologized,
Speaker 2: well both of them came to court and admitted why
Speaker 2: they lied because the police had arrested them these same
Speaker 2: two guys, before, see and they had a history with
Speaker 2: these same.
Speaker 1: Detectives so it kind of weigh, out you, know once
Speaker 1: you start.
Speaker 2: Your investigation and you really get to see how they're.
Speaker 5: Connected there's a really important thing that happens or actually
Speaker 5: doesn't happen during the, trial, right which is that now
Speaker 5: that you've already been screwed over by the first, lawyer
Speaker 5: now you get a second.
Speaker 4: Lawyer the second one really fucked you.
Speaker 7: Over i'm also paid for.
Speaker 1: HIM i like what you said that he really.
Speaker 5: Did your attorney neglected to do things that a third
Speaker 5: grader would have, done, right which, is he neglected to
Speaker 5: call the witnesses who would have placed you elsewhere at
Speaker 5: the time of the. Crime and he neglected to call the.
Speaker 5: Victim there were two. Victims one of them was a.
Speaker 5: Lie you couldn't call the dead, guy, right but the
Speaker 5: living Guy, Coleman, right he wanted to, testify, Right.
Speaker 4: And sometimes guys don't want to. Testify he wanted to.
Speaker 5: Testify so all this idiot that was representing, you AND
Speaker 5: i say that in the nicest possible.
Speaker 4: Way don't be.
Speaker 5: Nice all this guy would have had to do is
Speaker 5: say your, honor like IN, Tv i'd like to bring
Speaker 5: to the Stands James, coleman and Then, coleman who got
Speaker 5: shot would have said that you weren't the guy and
Speaker 5: then you would have gone. Home and let's talk about
Speaker 5: that for a. Second so were you not able to
Speaker 5: say to your, attorney hey, man call the.
Speaker 4: CALL i.
Speaker 2: DID i said, it AND i had people getting and
Speaker 2: gathering the witnesses. People that was actually that he goes
Speaker 2: to a crime scene so long after the incident and
Speaker 2: couldn't find. Anybody he went into the liquor store asking
Speaker 2: questions about inside of a liquor. Store now keep in
Speaker 2: mind that they said that this was actually going to
Speaker 2: be a stick up. Murder they said THAT i was
Speaker 2: robbing a dice game AND i saw these two guys
Speaker 2: WHO i had some issues, with and begin to.
Speaker 1: Shoot this is what they.
Speaker 2: Said my intention was to rob a dice, game a
Speaker 2: two dollars dice, game which was a.
Speaker 4: JOKE a two dollar dice. Game, yeah and you had two.
Speaker 2: CARS i had two, cars buildings and a lot of other.
Speaker 1: Stuff so these people.
Speaker 2: Say really didn't need for, hour, RIGHT i really didn't
Speaker 2: a two dollar dice.
Speaker 1: Game so he said that this was the reason for the.
Speaker 2: Shooting so when they came back to me with the
Speaker 2: explanation of WHY i supposed to shot these two, Guys
Speaker 2: James coleman had always, said you wasn't the, guy he,
Speaker 2: Said AND i told him.
Speaker 1: That he, said but, MAN i was. Sick you.
Speaker 2: KNOW i had a conversation with, him and he said
Speaker 2: THAT i was. SICK i talked to this man on the,
Speaker 2: phone you, know a whole lot of. Times and he
Speaker 2: even went to my mother's to my parents' house and
Speaker 2: told my mom THAT i lied on. Him for that,
Speaker 2: reason he, said AND i need to straighten it. Out
Speaker 2: he just couldn't get hisself, together and he said it
Speaker 2: also in, court say his life had really fell apart
Speaker 2: because he know he lied on. Me but then the other,
Speaker 2: guy the real, girly his intention was. Money his family
Speaker 2: wanted me to pay. Them if you give us THIS x.
Speaker 1: Amount of, dollars we'll walk. Away we won't even.
Speaker 5: Show up in court because was originally a witness against, you,
Speaker 5: Right and then he was ready to testify at the,
Speaker 5: trial and so did.
Speaker 1: Lied.
Speaker 4: RIGHT i just want to make that clear to the.
Speaker 5: Audience so ultimately you had an, option WHICH i find
Speaker 5: is an interesting. Thing, Right so your co defendant chose
Speaker 5: to be tried by a jury and you chose to
Speaker 5: be tried by a.
Speaker 2: Judge let's talk about, that because when we went into the.
Speaker 2: COURTROOM i kind of felt that this judge wasn't the
Speaker 2: JUDGE i. WANTED i didn't want a bench. TRIAL i
Speaker 2: never wanted a bench. Trial the attorney wanted a bench.
Speaker 2: TRIAL i wanted to pick, twelve but he denied me
Speaker 2: a jury. Trial he told me THAT i waited too
Speaker 2: late to pick a jury. Trial the judge tell you
Speaker 2: the judge. Did he, said we waited too late to
Speaker 2: pick a jury, trial AND i wanted.
Speaker 1: TWELVE i never trusted the.
Speaker 4: Judge or is that a?
Speaker 6: Thing you are supposed to demand trial by a jury
Speaker 6: when you file your answer when you. APPEAR i don't
Speaker 6: know if he failed to do. That if he did
Speaker 6: that alone is. Malpractice but what you do is you
Speaker 6: routinely ask for a jury and then if later you
Speaker 6: want to switch to a bench you can.
Speaker 7: So either he didn't ask for it early on we
Speaker 7: never could seess that.
Speaker 6: Out or he thought the judge would be good for
Speaker 6: them and then counseled him. Incorrectly but in any, event
Speaker 6: he counseled him against his wishes and against what would
Speaker 6: have been hopefully a much better outcome with twelve people
Speaker 6: and minds.
Speaker 2: YOU i walked into the police. Station they had to
Speaker 2: run this guy. Down the guy is inconcrated right now
Speaker 2: for the. Murder they had to run him. Down they found.
Speaker 4: Him which guy are you talking? About it my co, defendant, Right?
Speaker 4: Okay who they made my co.
Speaker 2: DEFENDANT i don't like claiming him BECAUSE i didn't even
Speaker 2: know this. Guy but they found him. Later he found
Speaker 2: him later on and arrested him and brought him. In
Speaker 2: so Now i'm demanding a separate. Trial but they tried
Speaker 2: us just the same. Time SO i felt my rights
Speaker 2: was BECAUSE i almost took. OVER i, Know i'm not an,
Speaker 2: attorney BUT i got good common. SENSE i don't want
Speaker 2: to sit at the table with this, guy and he
Speaker 2: is the. Shooter so Now i'm sitting at the. Table
Speaker 2: so what he Did he simultaneously tried us in the same,
Speaker 2: day the same court with the same.
Speaker 4: People, yeah that seems.
Speaker 5: Crazy so you end up getting convicted and being sent
Speaker 5: to a really scary.
Speaker 2: Place oh, Yeah pontiac prison guards to tell you welcome To.
Speaker 2: Pontiac in fifteen, minutes you had your own personal, shank
Speaker 2: your own personal Shak, yeah and you had. It place
Speaker 2: was full of blood already when you walked through those big.
Speaker 2: Doors slide, open AND i ain't never been in prison.
Speaker 1: Before, man it was it was.
Speaker 5: SHOCKING i read that there were three hundred and sixty
Speaker 5: incarcerated men in the prison at that time in five.
Speaker 4: Guards, yeah in one, building in one, Building yeah.
Speaker 5: YEAH i mean that doesn't sound like a recipe for success.
Speaker 5: EITHER i mean one, building and the guards had automatic,
Speaker 5: weapons and there were bullet, holes and there was a
Speaker 5: sign that, said, yeah dropped to the ground if bullets are.
Speaker 4: Fired you see that sign where you, like AM i
Speaker 4: in a? War?
Speaker 1: Yeah that's What that's what it.
Speaker 2: Was you can be on the yard in five seconds
Speaker 2: and watch somebody get. Stabbed that's the reason they tell
Speaker 2: you if you go, down drop to the, ground.
Speaker 5: Because then they're gonna start to. Shoot being vastly outnumbered
Speaker 5: as the guards, were that's their last, recourse. RIGHT i
Speaker 5: mean that's a tough job. TOO i, MEAN i, mean just.
Speaker 2: For the sake of knowing what exactly, happens you, know
Speaker 2: BECAUSE i know they. Exaggerated so those guards are not
Speaker 2: moving three hundred guys at one. Time in the, salehouse
Speaker 2: you move only a section at a, Time so you
Speaker 2: might see thirty, guys two, guards one in the, front
Speaker 2: one in the back and then the guy own with
Speaker 2: the rifle that's gonna knock your brains.
Speaker 1: Out And pontiac is.
Speaker 5: Held, well you were in lockdown sometimes twenty four hours a.
Speaker 5: Day yeah, RIGHT i mean there was a. Month there
Speaker 5: was a month where you were never let out of.
Speaker 5: YOURSELF i, mean it's incredible that you have any mental,
Speaker 5: faculties you, know preserved after.
Speaker 2: That it was more than a. Month they used to
Speaker 2: lock us down In pontiac for a. Year lock you, down.
Speaker 5: So no, shower no. Nothing you get a shower once
Speaker 5: a week and other than that you're locked down twenty a. Week,
Speaker 5: yeah twenty four seven in yourself.
Speaker 2: With someone, else with someone else and the toilet and
Speaker 2: EVERY i mean every day they would lock you. Down
Speaker 2: if an incident, occurred somebody got, stabbed they'd lock you.
Speaker 2: Down you'd be locked up six. Months they let you
Speaker 2: off two, days somebody else get, hit they lock you
Speaker 2: up another six. Months And i'm talking about complete lock.
Speaker 2: Up pontiac was held because it was like it was
Speaker 2: almost like a, supermax but it was one of the
Speaker 2: roughest max joints In. Illinois and every day you see
Speaker 2: either someone getting, raped somebody getting, stabbed somebody getting beat
Speaker 2: half to death or somebody getting shot by the.
Speaker 4: Guards that's, Insane and then you.
Speaker 2: Talk about the. TRAUMA i watched the man in front
Speaker 2: of my. CELL i had just finished working. OUT i
Speaker 2: came in to get in the, shower and the guard
Speaker 2: was telling him to put his hands, down and he
Speaker 2: was talking with his, hands and he shot him so.
Speaker 1: Fast you just see.
Speaker 2: The blood, jump like from the first floor to the third.
Speaker 2: Floor he hit him so fast and.
Speaker 4: Killed the man instantly because he was talking on his.
Speaker 2: Hands, yeah you, know because potential. Violence you, know guys
Speaker 2: do that when they're getting ready to do. Something so
Speaker 2: these are the. SIGNS i guess he blew his brains.
Speaker 2: Out but this place is what you saw every. Day
Speaker 2: either you, came you got up to go to work
Speaker 2: in the. MORNING i used to leave out five in the.
Speaker 2: MORNING i had an institutional, job SO i work all
Speaker 2: over the, penitentiary death, row protect the.
Speaker 1: CUSTODY i work all over the.
Speaker 2: Joint SO i get ready to leave out in the
Speaker 2: morning AND i walk past the guy's sell he's hanging, there.
Speaker 1: Just hanging. There you. KNOW i to see so much
Speaker 1: of it you become numb to. It and that's a.
Speaker 5: Shame and the scene you're describing Makes Shaw Shank redemptions
Speaker 5: sound like A disney.
Speaker 4: MOVIE i, mean it's just it. Was, yeah it's as
Speaker 4: bad as it. Gets, yeah it's.
Speaker 5: So bizarre that we have it absolutely, wrong absolutely. Backwards
Speaker 5: and In Western european countries and In scandinavian countries.
Speaker 4: And all over the world they take the opposite.
Speaker 5: Approach their thing is when you get, out you're going
Speaker 5: to have to live next door to, somebody maybe. Me,
Speaker 5: Right so at one point a couple of good things, happen,
Speaker 5: Right you found sort of hope and sanity and music, again,
Speaker 5: Right AND i thought that was a brave thing that you,
Speaker 5: did because there were at the time no musical instruments
Speaker 5: in this prison hell whatever you want to call, it,
Speaker 5: right and you were able to convince the, warden.
Speaker 1: Superintendent kelly it was my, buddy.
Speaker 5: Right so he at your behas he ordered some instruments
Speaker 5: and you got to put together a little band and
Speaker 5: get a little some kind of, JOY i, guess, yeah.
Speaker 2: Because we had been on lockdown so much and they
Speaker 2: had had some instruments they had it was. Garbage So
Speaker 2: kelly had decided that if that would keep us peaceful
Speaker 2: around a.
Speaker 1: Joint well ordered some more.
Speaker 2: Instruments so he ordered some more drums and guitars and,
Speaker 2: amps and it was.
Speaker 1: Called The Power Soul, Band Our Soul Power Soul.
Speaker 2: Band and so we played and most of the guys
Speaker 2: was in the band had natural. Life so those guys
Speaker 2: are still locked. Up so we had we had a nice,
Speaker 2: bandman and the unit was good and it kept things kind.
Speaker 2: OF i, mean we didn't go on lock down for
Speaker 2: like maybe a year and a.
Speaker 1: Half you, know it.
Speaker 2: Was because guys wanted to get out when we. Performed
Speaker 2: they wanted to be, there they wanted to see. It you,
Speaker 2: know it's like you going to a, party.
Speaker 5: Right so they had a reason right to not want
Speaker 5: to be violent because if they, did they would be
Speaker 5: depriving this little bit of, hope joy, music you, know
Speaker 5: life distraction everyone to call. It it is important for
Speaker 5: people to recognize we need to improve the, conditions but
Speaker 5: also bring arts and bring education into the, prison recognizing
Speaker 5: that ninety five plus percent of people in prison are
Speaker 5: going to get out at some point and have to
Speaker 5: rejoin the.
Speaker 2: Community WHEN i was, LIKE i heard a politician, say
Speaker 2: why SHOULD i spend twenty thousand dollars on a convict
Speaker 2: to get an education WHEN i have to pay for
Speaker 2: my sons and daughters to go to. School and they took,
Speaker 2: school they took the college because you should to get
Speaker 2: a bachelor's associated all kind of degrees in, prison and
Speaker 2: guys come out and make a difference in their. Lives
Speaker 2: they'd come out and do better than what they did
Speaker 2: when they went in because they was able to get a,
Speaker 2: job come employed.
Speaker 1: Today it's not you come, out you just.
Speaker 5: Out that's an extremely ignorant thing for the guy to,
Speaker 5: say because if he had done any studying at, all
Speaker 5: he would know that in places where those kind of programs,
Speaker 5: exist the people coming out have a tremendous rate of,
Speaker 5: success staying crime, free paying, taxes contributing to the, community
Speaker 5: reconnecting with, family.
Speaker 4: All those positive aspects of.
Speaker 5: Society so even if you're not looking at it from
Speaker 5: a human point of, view just looking at it from
Speaker 5: a protecting and improving society point of, view the benefits
Speaker 5: are immense and only the most maya and closed minded
Speaker 5: individuals can see it any other. Way so music came
Speaker 5: in to give a little something back to.
Speaker 4: Your, soul, right give you a little bit of.
Speaker 5: Hope and then you had sort of the guy you
Speaker 5: would call me your, angel, right sort of appear In,
Speaker 5: miraculous who was actually a real estate, lawyer.
Speaker 1: Right and he was an angel for.
Speaker 4: Real so let's talk about. Him his name what was
Speaker 4: his name of This Joseph.
Speaker 5: Howard Or Howard, Joseph Howard, Joseph, right tell me about this,
Speaker 5: Guy Howard.
Speaker 2: Joseph first of, all let me tell YOU i never
Speaker 2: admitted to ever being in love with a, man BUT
Speaker 2: i love this, man. Right this is my Little jewish.
Speaker 2: Love this is my. Man How joseph was an, angel you.
Speaker 2: Know he came in and WHAT i liked about him
Speaker 2: was he was, Bossy Like, lord he's, bossy, Right and
Speaker 2: he came in and one DAY i was working out
Speaker 2: on the yard and he, said, man you got a,
Speaker 2: visit so you gotta. VISIT i said a? Visit he, said,
Speaker 2: yeah your. ATTORNEY i ain't got no, attorney so, yeah
Speaker 2: you got an. Attorney SO i. GO i go to
Speaker 2: the front to the visiting, room and there he. Is
Speaker 2: he's standing. There The jewish guy had on lorraine, coat
Speaker 2: little flip, flops looking Like, colombo Remember.
Speaker 1: Colombo and they come in and that's who you remind me.
Speaker 2: Of So i'm looking at him and so he, said
Speaker 2: say that. Twine he, said, okay he's sitting. Down SO
Speaker 2: i sat.
Speaker 1: Down i'm, like what's this old man telling me to?
Speaker 1: Say boss me?
Speaker 2: Around and he said sit, Down SO i sat. Down
Speaker 2: he Said i'm your. ATTORNEY i, said you my. Attorney
Speaker 2: SO i was, like, yeah so this is a, joke,
Speaker 2: Right i'm thinking it's a. Joke he, said, No i'm your.
Speaker 2: Attorney he, said your sister and my son had been
Speaker 2: talking AND i read your, case he, said AND i
Speaker 2: just need you to be.
Speaker 1: Patient we're going to get you out of, here you.
Speaker 1: Know AND i just looked at him like, this this
Speaker 1: has got to be a.
Speaker 2: Joke so he drove three hours one way to come see,
Speaker 2: me and he was about seventy two, then and he
Speaker 2: drove back, home and he drove. Again he came, again
Speaker 2: AND i, said are you driving away down by? Yourself
Speaker 2: he said, yeah give me a chance to.
Speaker 1: Think so he would.
Speaker 2: Come people would laugh at. Him he, said get you
Speaker 2: out of. Here SO i PUT i put faith in
Speaker 2: that he'd ask for. Nothing he didn't ask for, anything you.
Speaker 2: KNOW i tried to pay for his gas and buying food.
Speaker 5: And he's, well he had he had a phrase that
Speaker 5: he would repeat to, you, right which.
Speaker 2: Was that's when we made it to the county. Jail oh,
Speaker 2: yeah he. Would every day he would, say so you're
Speaker 2: ready to go. HOME i, said of, Course i'm ready
Speaker 2: to go. Home he, said are you ready to go?
Speaker 2: Home you got some clothes your, mama bring me some.
Speaker 2: CLOTHES i said.
Speaker 1: No so it went on for like two, years almost
Speaker 1: to that.
Speaker 4: Day you guys had like a routine on.
Speaker 1: Him, yeah we had a. Routine.
Speaker 2: MAN i MEAN i loved his heart because he was.
Speaker 2: Consistent you, know he was a, man had no greed.
Speaker 2: Involved he didn't ask for. Anything he always told, me he,
Speaker 2: said nobody know your case better than you.
Speaker 1: Do attention to.
Speaker 4: It he was a real estate, lawyer, Right actually he was.
Speaker 2: A criminal attorney that higher then he just did real,
Speaker 2: estate got, it just did real estate for, years and
Speaker 2: so when he saw my, case he wanted to get
Speaker 2: back in the.
Speaker 1: Game he, said you would be my last. Case AND i.
Speaker 1: WAS i was actually his last.
Speaker 4: Case it's kind of a. Miracle, yeah actually.
Speaker 5: Right he would just pop up out of nowhere AND
Speaker 5: i could see why you thought you were being punked
Speaker 5: so to, speak, right.
Speaker 1: He did punk, me he, did he made me sit.
Speaker 5: Down so ultimately your Little jewish guardian angel appears on
Speaker 5: the scene and.
Speaker 4: He did what he said he was going to.
Speaker 5: Do he did because otherwise you wouldn't be sitting here
Speaker 5: because you had your sentence was you had two sentences,
Speaker 5: right for two different, crimes because.
Speaker 2: Murders temp, murder and they charged me with this arm
Speaker 2: and the farm within the city limits by.
Speaker 1: Felon they gave me a temp.
Speaker 5: Murder this was nineteen ninety, Two, antoine and you were
Speaker 5: sending sixty years for murder and twenty five years for attempted.
Speaker 5: Murder so he came along just in the nicked time
Speaker 5: because you weren't going to spend the.
Speaker 4: Rest of your life in. Prison, yeah there was no
Speaker 4: doubt about.
Speaker 5: It so ultimately he. Won and what did judge say
Speaker 5: when he when he vacated your?
Speaker 4: Conviction?
Speaker 2: Oh, man the judge was, like, uh he asked me
Speaker 2: IF i had any last? Words you, know DID i
Speaker 2: want to say?
Speaker 1: Anything?
Speaker 2: MAN i kind of went off in the courtroom BECAUSE
Speaker 2: i told the, JUDGE i said the state's attorney knew
Speaker 2: all the time that they was lying on. Me he
Speaker 2: knew all the time because he kept telling, me you
Speaker 2: give us what we, want you can go. Home he
Speaker 2: knew all the. Time So judge, said Mister, day he,
Speaker 2: said he, said how you. FEEL i, Said i'm. Okay he,
Speaker 2: said well the days you're. Lucky day you're going. Home and,
Speaker 2: MAN i, MEAN i wasn't even, shocked you, know it
Speaker 2: was just LIKE i was just standing there.
Speaker 5: And what was what was YOUR i, Mean i'm just
Speaker 5: trying to have this beautiful picture in my mind of
Speaker 5: you And.
Speaker 1: Howard Mister, howard he just re stove and hugged. Me you.
Speaker 2: Know, well let me tell you this part before we
Speaker 2: get to that good. Part let me tell you how
Speaker 2: the state's attorneys treated. Him they used to laugh at.
Speaker 2: Him state's attorney used to look at me while we're
Speaker 2: sitting in the courtroom in his fancy. Suit mister how
Speaker 2: would have on flip flops and they would laugh at
Speaker 2: him like he was a. Joke they would laugh at
Speaker 2: him like, so the state's attorney would sit back in his,
Speaker 2: chair do this to.
Speaker 4: Me he's pulling his finger across his throat like you, know.
Speaker 2: Like he's slashing my throat Like i'm. Dead alison don't
Speaker 2: worry about.
Speaker 1: HIM i got. Him he, Said i'm good with bullies
Speaker 1: because they're.
Speaker 2: Bullies at that, day you should have seen the expressions
Speaker 2: on these guys. Faces they just couldn't believe that this
Speaker 2: little man just beat them, up this.
Speaker 4: Bad the.
Speaker 2: Wrong little, jew you, know and he cursed like a.
Speaker 2: Seller so he was cursing all the while we were in.
Speaker 2: Court he was mfing and all kind of. Stuff he
Speaker 2: just didn't play no. Games and this judge told, me you,
Speaker 2: know he was, saying you've been blessed because this man
Speaker 2: did his due.
Speaker 1: Diligence he got me out of.
Speaker 5: There i'm getting a chill right. Now so he's become
Speaker 5: sort of a mythical. Figure he has a program named after,
Speaker 5: him oh, yeah In illinois and.
Speaker 4: Stuff he's not around, anymore.
Speaker 1: Yes, see because his work is my.
Speaker 5: Work his spirit lives on in you and also in
Speaker 5: the program that's named after. Him, So, antoine the way
Speaker 5: that you found out about your conviction being vacated is
Speaker 5: a very. Unusual in, Fact i've never heard anything quite like.
Speaker 4: It can you share that? Story me and a.
Speaker 2: Guy Kenny, williams we were on the yard At stateville,
Speaker 2: actually when he transferred me To stateville who was working
Speaker 2: out on the. Yard he was reading the newspaper that
Speaker 2: we're not supposed to.
Speaker 1: Have in the.
Speaker 2: Newspaper it had my case had been. Overturned so this
Speaker 2: guy had he had called my name. OUT i thought
Speaker 2: he was just. Joking he called my name out. Again
Speaker 2: he was, like, man so you got to come see.
Speaker 2: This SO i walked over and looked in the. Newspaper
Speaker 2: it was like. Wow SO i called my. Attorney my
Speaker 2: attorney THOUGHT i was joking and he didn't believe it
Speaker 2: because he didn't know anything about.
Speaker 4: It was It April fools or something that it felt like.
Speaker 2: It, Yeah so WHEN i told, him he went, crazy you,
Speaker 2: know he was like cursing me, out Thinking i'm. Joking
Speaker 2: so he went and got the. Paper he ran out
Speaker 2: of his, office walked and got the, paper came, back
Speaker 2: AND i called him. Back he was, like it is
Speaker 2: they overturned the. Case so he was trying to figure
Speaker 2: out how could they possibly do this because time run
Speaker 2: at that moment and you only have a certain amount
Speaker 2: of time to meet it before you probably miss it
Speaker 2: and miss all the pill.
Speaker 1: Processes so he went and got right on top.
Speaker 2: Of it and then maybe like a year, later they moved
Speaker 2: me back to the county.
Speaker 5: Jail now that's another, thing, Right so anyone listening would, Say,
Speaker 5: okay well it's in the. Newspaper your conviction has been.
Speaker 5: Overturned so wouldn't they want to send you home at that? Point,
Speaker 5: no not exactly, right not In, chicago not at that, time.
Speaker 2: Not the processes of. Politics back to the county. Jail
Speaker 2: so now you go, back and you go back in
Speaker 2: front of the. Judge he listened to the new, evidence
Speaker 2: he listened to all this stuff that went. On SO
Speaker 2: i was in the county jail for maybe a little
Speaker 2: over two. YEARS i was a. BARBER i was cutting
Speaker 2: the hand in the county and working in a. BARBERSHOP
Speaker 2: i was In division, eleven pretty, good, clean pretty white.
Speaker 2: Building it was real neat and clean over. There and
Speaker 2: they moved me one, night maybe like four in the
Speaker 2: morning or am moved me To division. ONE i didn't know.
Speaker 2: WHY i hadn't done, anything hadn't been in no, trouble
Speaker 2: straight and narrow so far put me in the cell
Speaker 2: with a. GUY i didn't know who he was at the,
Speaker 2: time but my son was.
Speaker 1: Killed he god.
Speaker 2: Killed in two thousand AND i came home two thousand and.
Speaker 2: Two he was seventeen when they moved me From division.
Speaker 2: Eleven they moved me To division, one and they put
Speaker 2: me in the cell with the guy that actually killed.
Speaker 5: Him they put you in the, cell, yeah putting the
Speaker 5: guy who killed your.
Speaker 4: Son and it wasn't a long. Time but this is re,
Speaker 4: right press, right AND i, mean my head is, exploding, Right.
Speaker 5: And they did this on, purpose, right because it was
Speaker 5: not a. Coincidence and it's also strange that they did
Speaker 5: it at four in the, morning, right it's not the
Speaker 5: typical time that they move. You and they've been moved
Speaker 5: for no reason except there was a reason because from
Speaker 5: WHAT i can figure, out they didn't like the fact
Speaker 5: that you were going to get out and that you
Speaker 5: had proven them. Wrong you and with the help of
Speaker 5: this magical seventy something year old attorney who didn't dress
Speaker 5: right and was being made by the.
Speaker 4: Prosecutor so they didn't like.
Speaker 5: That so it sounds to me AND i hate to
Speaker 5: think in terms that are so.
Speaker 4: Sinister but you were a big guy back, then, Right
Speaker 4: you were bench pressing five hundred.
Speaker 1: POUNDS i was in the fire. Club we just called
Speaker 1: the five hundred.
Speaker 5: Club so they moved you to this, cell thinking this
Speaker 5: guy meaning, you you're going to kill this other, guy
Speaker 5: BECAUSE i mean.
Speaker 4: It SEEMED i, mean of, course like WHAT.
Speaker 2: I did recognize WAS i went back in my head
Speaker 2: for a little while BECAUSE i remember WHEN i was In,
Speaker 2: pontiac how the state's attorney had came and investigated, me
Speaker 2: was asking all these questions around, me AND i was
Speaker 2: never supposed to know that they were even, there BUT
Speaker 2: i found, out and it was kind of this made
Speaker 2: a little bit more familiar to what the process was
Speaker 2: of them keeping me. Incocerated IF i catch another, case
Speaker 2: then my appeal is non and. Void it's just not gonna.
Speaker 2: Happen so they put me in this predicament with this.
Speaker 2: Guy either he was gonna kill me OR i was
Speaker 2: gonna kill. Him it would have been a lose lose
Speaker 2: situation for me to do something or have something done to.
Speaker 1: Me, SO i, mean it's a chess. Game they made their,
Speaker 1: moves SO i had to make.
Speaker 2: Mine my move was to call the guard and tell
Speaker 2: THEM i refuse housing SO i could be taken out
Speaker 2: of this. Situation you, know because at this, POINT i,
Speaker 2: MEAN i got great common.
Speaker 1: Sense i'm this close to. Home i'm not going to blow.
Speaker 5: It even for the literally the most extreme situation you
Speaker 5: can possibly find.
Speaker 2: Yourself it wouldn't have did. Anything it wouldn't have brought them. Back,
Speaker 2: no IF i had to beat them to a, pope
Speaker 2: it wouldn't have brought him. Back so man of the,
Speaker 2: matter you, know it's just at a point you just
Speaker 2: have to think about the future.
Speaker 4: Now that that's an incredible it's a mind blowing.
Speaker 1: Story AND i never shared this.
Speaker 2: Story so if people don't even know about, this you
Speaker 2: seem to get all getting it all out of me,
Speaker 2: today know what going on around, here.
Speaker 5: None of us could possibly. Understand nobody that hasn't been
Speaker 5: doing that. Understand but it's a miracle that you were
Speaker 5: able to resist an impulse that must have been as
Speaker 5: powerful as any that anybody could.
Speaker 4: Imagine but it, IS.
Speaker 1: I, mean it's it's a. Thing you, Know.
Speaker 2: I've always heard the term of feeling your blood. Boil you,
Speaker 2: know how you just feel your body go.
Speaker 1: To a whole nother.
Speaker 4: Temperature that would be. It youth get the.
Speaker 1: Rise and you get the.
Speaker 2: Sweating and that's WHAT i was going. Through BECAUSE i
Speaker 2: have told myself over and over and over and over
Speaker 2: and over.
Speaker 1: Again IF i ever see, them What i'm going to
Speaker 1: do to?
Speaker 2: Them, right you, know IF i ever because you always,
Speaker 2: talk you avenge your family and stand up for your,
Speaker 2: family and when you put in these situations in this,
Speaker 2: circumstance you, KNOW i always said that to, myself SO
Speaker 2: i had to escalate.
Speaker 1: Immediately you.
Speaker 5: Know it's almost like who could blame? You you're in
Speaker 5: year eight or nine of your wrongful. Incarceration you've been
Speaker 5: through everything that they can throw at, you and now
Speaker 5: you just lived through the worst thing that a parent
Speaker 5: can go through is to lose a child and then
Speaker 5: to be put in a tiny cell with a. Guy
Speaker 5: but you're, right it wouldn't accomplish. Anything but it's easy
Speaker 5: to say from, here you didn't. Here it's easy to.
Speaker 5: Say so this is SOMETHING i really want to highlight
Speaker 5: because in twenty five years of doing, this the first
Speaker 5: thing that people ask me almost every TIME i tell
Speaker 5: a story like yours is do they get compensated to this?
Speaker 4: Man did this? Woman tell? Me they? Get?
Speaker 5: Yeah and you should see like the eyes are bugging,
Speaker 5: out like you, know because if you if you're not
Speaker 5: familiar with, this and a lot of people, aren't when
Speaker 5: you first hear one of these, stories you get so. Shook,
Speaker 5: Right tell me they get, Paid tell me they get
Speaker 5: something when they get.
Speaker 4: Out and you, KNOW.
Speaker 5: I think it's shocking to a lot of people to
Speaker 5: learn that a lot of exgneries get, nothing, period full,
Speaker 5: stop end of. Story, right they just have to go
Speaker 5: figure it out with this twenty year gap or whatever
Speaker 5: it might. Be but even if you do get, paid
Speaker 5: because people see the stories in the, paper sometimes somebody
Speaker 5: successfully sues for civil rights violation or whatever it is
Speaker 5: and gets millions of, dollars which they, deserve and still
Speaker 5: DOESN'T i don't know too many people that would, say.
Speaker 4: OH i GOT i got a deal for.
Speaker 5: You you're going to do ten twenty years in the most dangerous,
Speaker 5: place one of the most dangerous places on, Earth like
Speaker 5: you literally be better off trying to find diamonds in
Speaker 5: a river In africa with with crocodiles and, hippos then
Speaker 5: you would be In pontiac. PRISON i don't know too
Speaker 5: many people that would, say, Ye i'll take that. Deal,
Speaker 5: Yeah i'm gonna go do that ten years and give
Speaker 5: me the money at the Other so that's out the.
Speaker 5: Window but the fact is that even the people who
Speaker 5: do get compensated have to wait an incredibly long, time
Speaker 5: years and years to get their, money and in the
Speaker 5: meantime they're stuck in sort of a twilight. Zone, Right
Speaker 5: and there's no better example than. YOURS i want to
Speaker 5: talk about.
Speaker 4: THAT i want to hear it in your own.
Speaker 5: Words the judge has just, said today's your lucky. Day
Speaker 5: do you want to go? Home you And howard are, hugging,
Speaker 5: right Mister. Howard and you didn't just walk out the. Door, No,
Speaker 5: no there was a. Process, oh the process is.
Speaker 2: Terrible so after The sokar, release it took me almost
Speaker 2: eight hours to get out of, that if not more,
Speaker 2: so they run you right back through the. Process SO
Speaker 2: i had to go back down in this dungeon in
Speaker 2: the bottom of the county. Jail in the, bottom it's
Speaker 2: the last basement in the county. Jail so it's really
Speaker 2: pipes and plumbing and rats and everything just in this, place,
Speaker 2: Right and it's a room a little bigger than this,
Speaker 2: room and it's a pile of. Clothes so in these
Speaker 2: pile of clothes it used to. Close guys it's took
Speaker 2: off coming in who slept in them maybe a week
Speaker 2: inside one of these jails on the street and they
Speaker 2: make you pick out some clothes out of this power
Speaker 2: in order to.
Speaker 1: Walk out of.
Speaker 4: Here and they haven't been.
Speaker 1: Washed haven't been.
Speaker 2: Washed oh, MAN i picked the biggest PIECE i could
Speaker 2: so it wouldn't really be attached to. Me SO i
Speaker 2: picked out a jigging, suit a black jigon suit with
Speaker 2: a hood because the guard says raining outside real. Bad
Speaker 2: SO i picked out it had a hood on. It
Speaker 2: the suit LIKE i would extra. Large this suit had
Speaker 2: to be a three x of four.
Speaker 4: X it was so.
Speaker 1: Big the sleeves was hanging and it stinks so.
Speaker 2: BAD i mean reek of just, urine and you, know
Speaker 2: BUT i had no choice IF i wanted to stay
Speaker 2: another day in the county, jail another two days in
Speaker 2: the county, jail because you get lost in that system so.
Speaker 2: Easily SO i, said, No i'm gonna grab. Something SO
Speaker 2: i grabbed that and the jigging.
Speaker 4: Pants and it held your nose, basically.
Speaker 1: Yes and just got used to. It you, KNOW i
Speaker 1: just lived in.
Speaker 5: Filth and the issue was, that because it took hours
Speaker 5: and hours for this process to, happen Mister, howard COULDN'T
Speaker 5: i like calling him Mister? Howard a. Legendary, yeah me,
Speaker 5: too So i'm picking up after. You so he wasn't
Speaker 5: able to, stay, right he had another obligation of something
Speaker 5: he had to.
Speaker 2: Go i'm sure your, Right so he went home to
Speaker 2: take care of his. Wife but then we never know
Speaker 2: how long you be. There he's not coming out in thirty,
Speaker 2: minutes twenty, minutes you, know it's a. Process so, NO
Speaker 2: i didn't want to make him, stay so he. Went
Speaker 2: he went, home and at this, point nobody knew that
Speaker 2: this was going to happen this, day so my family
Speaker 2: wasn't even, there SO i just ended up just coming.
Speaker 2: Out they FINALLY i put the clothes, on they put me.
Speaker 2: Out they kept my forty three dollars and some eye.
Speaker 4: Change, well your forty three dollars wasn't even.
Speaker 5: There it was in a different, right so you had
Speaker 5: no ability to access, that and they send you. Out
Speaker 5: what the date of the release Was? May, right it
Speaker 5: Was may, ninth.
Speaker 4: But may is not.
Speaker 5: Exactly it's not warm at night In may In. Chicago,
Speaker 5: No so it's cold and, rainy.
Speaker 4: Rainy, yeah and it's, Dark, yeah it's.
Speaker 2: Dark AND i stood in the rain man for about three,
Speaker 2: hours just wondering trying to figure it.
Speaker 1: OUT i had no money to get. HOME i had,
Speaker 1: nothing absolutely.
Speaker 2: Nothing SO i was just standing, there soaking with freaking
Speaker 2: of Old i've never experienced in my life until somebody
Speaker 2: pulled up on me and, SAID i got one of my.
Speaker 2: Buddies you, know he didn't even. Know he, Says so
Speaker 2: what you're doing out? HERE i just broke. Out he,
Speaker 2: said so you need a, ride so you, know guys
Speaker 2: quick to help you if you committed a, CROWN i.
Speaker 7: Guess and this isn't just any street.
Speaker 6: Corner it's twenty six in Cow so that is the
Speaker 6: hub of The chicago criminal court. System it's the busiest
Speaker 6: court system in the. World it's not in a great.
Speaker 6: Neighborhood during the, day everyone's, saying be, careful be, careful
Speaker 6: be careful when you go out. There he has not
Speaker 6: been in society for over a, decade and he has
Speaker 6: walked out onto this dangerous street corner without a bus,
Speaker 6: cart without AN, id without a, phone without frankly much
Speaker 6: of an, identity and just there you.
Speaker 2: Go will people get killed right in front of the.
Speaker 2: Building he just had an incident a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2: Ago a guy got killed right with all this police,
Speaker 2: activity he gets murdered right on the.
Speaker 5: Street it's so interesting and it's uplifting because at the
Speaker 5: end of the, day randomly in the city the size Of,
Speaker 5: chicago your friend happened to be driving, By, like.
Speaker 4: Yo what are you doing?
Speaker 5: Here and, LIKE i, mean that's another little, miracle, Right
Speaker 5: but Well i'm, BLESSED i know.
Speaker 4: That, yeah, well that's.
Speaker 5: An amazing thing for somebody to say that's been through
Speaker 5: ten years inside the most horrific prison, system nightmare for
Speaker 5: something he didn't.
Speaker 4: Do but it's a great way to look at.
Speaker 5: It and the fact is it's almost like the energy
Speaker 5: feel that Mister howard, created and then this guy was
Speaker 5: sort of an extension of, that like your other guardian.
Speaker 4: Angel but there's no planet.
Speaker 5: On which we should allow somebody to emerge from this
Speaker 5: what sort of an extra fuck you right, here get
Speaker 5: out of, here smelling like you just rolled around in
Speaker 5: the you, know in the, gutter and then good luck
Speaker 5: not even like.
Speaker 1: Not even good.
Speaker 4: Luck, NO i, mean get the hell out right.
Speaker 5: And if you get, killed you because we didn't care
Speaker 5: about you before and we don't care about you. Now
Speaker 5: i'm not saying they necessarily have to have a chariot
Speaker 5: waiting for you with white horses or a golden thing or.
Speaker 4: Whatever but a bus ticket would have been. FINE a bus,
Speaker 4: TICKET a phone, call, yeah that would have been.
Speaker 1: Fun about a phone, call can somebody come give? It
Speaker 1: they don't give you any of, That they're not. RESPONSIBLE
Speaker 1: a phone call would have been. Good phone call would
Speaker 1: have been.
Speaker 5: Great, LAURA i want to turn to you because you
Speaker 5: have a new book out WHICH i read THAT i.
Speaker 5: Love it's Called anatomy Of, Innocence thank. You. Yeah and
Speaker 5: in the book you paired, exoneries Including, antoine with legendary
Speaker 5: authors in order to tell their story in a way
Speaker 5: that is particularly poignant and also really sort of. Succinct
Speaker 5: so can you talk about that process BECAUSE i love
Speaker 5: the book AND i hope everybody will check it. Out
Speaker 5: anatomy Of, Innocence thank.
Speaker 4: You.
Speaker 6: Yeah it's Called anatomy Of, Innocence and we basically are trying,
Speaker 6: to in, fact do what you're. Doing we're trying to
Speaker 6: get inside the, mind inside the, soul behind the eyes
Speaker 6: of someone who went through a wrongful. Conviction so we've
Speaker 6: broken it down into. Stages the knock on the, door you,
Speaker 6: know the first time you When antoine heard his name
Speaker 6: was getting batted.
Speaker 7: Around what do you do when you hear?
Speaker 6: Guilty because every exonery thinks they'll here not guilty because
Speaker 6: they can tell that the criminal justice system is not
Speaker 6: working well because they're in it and they're. Innocent but
Speaker 6: they all think they're hill not, guilty all of, them
Speaker 6: and they hear. Guilty there's hearing all sorts of testimony
Speaker 6: about yourself at, trial which isn't. True there's the walking
Speaker 6: into prison for the first, time dealing with the crazies
Speaker 6: that are in, there finding someone to get you, out
Speaker 6: and then the fact that freedom is just the. Beginning
Speaker 6: we wanted to show that sometimes they happen like, This
Speaker 6: sometimes they happen like you see ON tv where you
Speaker 6: see people outside holding up the, arms and other, times
Speaker 6: And antoine's is not the only Case i've heard of
Speaker 6: about being released onto the street with.
Speaker 7: NOTHING i, mean it's more frequent than.
Speaker 4: Not it's just another bizarre aspect of the whole.
Speaker 6: Thing so it is a bizarre, aspect and, frankly so
Speaker 6: many of these things are so.
Speaker 7: Fortuitous and he said he feels.
Speaker 6: Lucky antoine, SAID i feel, lucky AND i think you,
Speaker 6: Know i've heard people say that exoneries are the luckiest unlucky,
Speaker 6: People AND i mean it was. Strange even WHEN i Met,
Speaker 6: ANTOINE i had taken another. Xonery antoine has been working
Speaker 6: in re entry since he got, out AND i took
Speaker 6: another exonery to get services he ran Into. Antoine antoine
Speaker 6: did not know he was an ex. Hoonery Howard joseph had,
Speaker 6: died and he also didn't know That illinois was one
Speaker 6: of the states that had, compensation and he had about
Speaker 6: twenty eight days from the TIME i met him to
Speaker 6: file or forever it's gone.
Speaker 5: Forever old your. Piece so WHAT i took from the
Speaker 5: book also each of those. Stories it's so. Fascinating, Again
Speaker 5: i'm getting the. Chills you can't make these stories. Up
Speaker 5: and when you read, them and when you read them
Speaker 5: written so beautifully by such important literary figures as you
Speaker 5: have put together In Anatomy, ventics it's really it's a
Speaker 5: great experience reading the. Book so tell us About life After,
Speaker 5: innocence because that's a program you run At loyola.
Speaker 6: Right life After innocence is a clinic At Loyola Chicago
Speaker 6: school Of, law and we in fact have The Howard
Speaker 6: joseph award that we give every year in Mister howard's
Speaker 6: honor for people who help the innocent without basically seeking
Speaker 6: compensation or. Recognition so my law students AND i since
Speaker 6: two thousand and nine have been representing X houneries to
Speaker 6: help them start. Over, previously we did a lot. More
Speaker 6: when we started in two thousand and, nine one or
Speaker 6: two people got out a year in THE.
Speaker 7: Us now it's three a.
Speaker 6: Week so now we're focusing primarily on criminal records, relief
Speaker 6: getting their records, cleared because what most people don't know
Speaker 6: is that When antoine walked, out even though his case
Speaker 6: had been, overturned when he got pulled over by the,
Speaker 6: cops it's still a convicted. Murderer so till someone goes
Speaker 6: in and gets your record cleaned, up it's still on your.
Speaker 6: Record doesn't matter even IF dna showed who it really,
Speaker 6: was still on your. Record so we get that cleaned,
Speaker 6: up and then we push for, legislation which we've been
Speaker 6: successful on so slowly we're adding to the services that
Speaker 6: X houneries get In.
Speaker 4: Illinois that's incredible.
Speaker 5: Work AND i also want to just touch on Briefly Joseph,
Speaker 5: howard who now has the award made that you can't
Speaker 5: see it on the, radio AS i always, say But
Speaker 5: i've been Watching antoine's body, language and every time this
Speaker 5: man's name comes, up he sort of sits up straight
Speaker 5: and starts smiling. Uncontrollably and for those of you.
Speaker 2: Trying to start from, Crying i'm telling you, something, man
Speaker 2: is this Is it always seemed to, Happen but this
Speaker 2: guy has really touched my soul in the way that
Speaker 2: he operated and what he did for, me BECAUSE i
Speaker 2: only pay it forward and because of. Him because of, him,
Speaker 2: MAN i, mean it means a. Lot so, YEAH i
Speaker 2: carry him very, high you.
Speaker 5: Know AND i want to give a shout out to
Speaker 5: all THE i know there's a lot of attorneys that
Speaker 5: listen to the show who do incredible amounts of pro
Speaker 5: bono work on behalf of people like, yourself and to
Speaker 5: all of, THEM i just want to say that you
Speaker 5: have all of our respect and appreciation because we couldn't
Speaker 5: do it without. You and if anybody is considering getting
Speaker 5: into the, WORK i encourage you to to meet somebody
Speaker 5: Like antoine and see what it's meant in a very
Speaker 5: personal and magical. Way so we will continue to Honor
Speaker 5: Joseph howard by continuing to support the. Work, now as
Speaker 5: is a tradition on wrong for, conviction we always like
Speaker 5: to give you the exgnery the last, word so we'll
Speaker 5: turn it over to.
Speaker 1: You, Okay, well thank you so.
Speaker 2: MUCH i do appreciate being, here getting the opportunity to
Speaker 2: share and to enlighten people of what really goes on
Speaker 2: outside of just the, media and to thank people Like
Speaker 2: laura and yourself for having this. Platform but most of,
Speaker 2: ALL i like to say WHERE i am today it
Speaker 2: is because of somebody's.
Speaker 1: Help the things THAT i do.
Speaker 2: Today i'm a court advocate for juvenile youth In chicago
Speaker 2: when they go to court to make sure they're not
Speaker 2: wronged LIKE i. Was so when they get, ARRESTED i
Speaker 2: get a phone call and we appear in.
Speaker 1: COURT i support.
Speaker 2: Them also with the Family, AGAIN i work in one
Speaker 2: of the most harshest communities in the city Of chicago
Speaker 2: and throughout the state AT Bbf Family, services Where i'm
Speaker 2: able to give back to the community with Mister joe
Speaker 2: gave to me Through loyola and working With laura and
Speaker 2: the things she did for me helped me. Create, also
Speaker 2: me And Jared adams helped me create life after.
Speaker 1: Justice even after.
Speaker 2: Her, work we continue to do it so we are
Speaker 2: springboard off of what she. Did so what she has
Speaker 2: done for me is also paying it forward again and
Speaker 2: making things happen where you can help somebody. Else and
Speaker 2: that's what we don't do enough of in this, country
Speaker 2: in this. World were more worried about other activities around
Speaker 2: the world when we really flat on our back right.
Speaker 2: Here SO i just really appreciate the opportunity to say
Speaker 2: thank you and keep it going and keep calling me
Speaker 2: BECAUSE i don't mind. COMING i believe in the, work
Speaker 2: and this is WHAT i, love you, KNOW i love
Speaker 2: giving it. Back like you, said you, Know i'm. Inspired
Speaker 2: you KNOW i had a great. Mom i'm inspired by my,
Speaker 2: sister who you, KNOW i always say she talked too,
Speaker 2: much but then that particular time she talked at the
Speaker 2: right time in order to meet Mister joe's, son WHO
Speaker 2: i think not enough but as much AS i possibly.
Speaker 1: Can i'm very, grateful and LIKE i, Said i'm.
Speaker 2: Blessed i'm blessed to be in this in this particular
Speaker 2: position Where i'm able to help other.
Speaker 1: People that's HOW i help. MYSELF i need to be an.
Speaker 2: Angel i'm trying to learn, it you, know, so Mister,
Speaker 2: Joe i'm trying to learn how to be that example
Speaker 2: he would be proud of me to.
Speaker 5: Be, WELL i THINK i can say that he would,
Speaker 5: be And i'm sure he. Is and you are a
Speaker 5: great example of everything that's good and right about this.
Speaker 5: Cause and people like you are the strongest forces we
Speaker 5: have because the stories are just so incredible and so,
Speaker 5: powerful and SO i appreciate you being here and sharing.
Speaker 5: THAT i KNEW i was going to learn. Something don't
Speaker 5: forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your,
Speaker 5: podcasts it really. Helps And i'm a proud donor to
Speaker 5: The Innocence project AND i really hope you'll join me
Speaker 5: in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent
Speaker 5: future wrongful. Convictions go To innocenceproject dot org to learn
Speaker 5: how to donate and get. Involved i'd like to thank
Speaker 5: our production, Team Connor hall And Kevin. Wartis the music
Speaker 5: in the show is by three TIME oscar nominated Composer Jay.
Speaker 5: Ralph be sure to follow us On instagram At Wrongful
Speaker 5: conviction and On facebook At Wrongful Conviction. Podcast Wrongful conviction
Speaker 5: With Jason flahm is a production Of lava For good
Speaker 5: podcasts and association With Signal Company number one