1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 2: Well, Elon Musk gives now the richest person on the planet. 3 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 3: More than half the satellites in space are owned and 4 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 3: controlled by one man. 5 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 4: Well, he's a legitimate super genius. 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: I mean legitimate. 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 3: He says he's always voted for Democrats, but this year 8 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 3: it will be different. 9 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: He'll vote Republican. 10 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 2: There is a reason the US government is so reliant 11 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 2: on him. 12 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 5: Alon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 13 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 3: Anything he does, he's fascinating people. Welcome to Elan, Inc. 14 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 3: Where we discuss Elon Musk's vast corporate empire, his latest 15 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 3: gambits and antics, and how to make sense of it all. 16 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 3: I'm your host, David Papadopolis. This week we have an 17 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 3: exciting guest, Barry Ridtholts, host of the Masters in Business 18 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 3: podcast and founder of Ritholt's Wealth Management. Barry is joining 19 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 3: us to talk about Elon's leadership of his companies over 20 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 3: the years and his relationship with Wall Street. But first 21 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 3: we'll do a deep dive on Tesla's full self driving 22 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 3: Mode FSD. After a controversial Super Bowl ad that targeted 23 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 3: Tesla and a Washington Post article on a fatal accident 24 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 3: will unpack the state of the technology. To do this, 25 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 3: I'm sitting here in the studio with Max Chafkin, senior 26 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 3: reporter at Bloomberg Business Week. Max, you brave the snowstorm 27 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 3: in are here, Welcome. 28 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 2: Good to be here. 29 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 3: And Dana Hall, Bloomberg's Ace Tesla reporter he Loo Dana, Hello, Hello, Hey, 30 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 3: So listen. So super Bowl ads about cars are usually 31 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 3: I don't know, they're like American flags and God bless 32 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 3: America and pickup trucks and farmers. But then all of 33 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 3: a sudden during the Super Bowl, millions of people her 34 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 3: something like this. 35 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 6: Tesla dances away from liability in autopilot crashes by pointing 36 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 6: to a note very deep in the owner's manual that 37 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 6: says autopilot is only safe on freeways. So the FEDS 38 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:17,959 Speaker 6: demanded autopilot be restricted to freeways. Shockingly, Tesla refused. 39 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 3: And it ends with these words, boycott Tesla to keep 40 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 3: your kids safe. Dan not subtle here. Who are these 41 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 3: Dawn people behind the project and what do we make 42 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 3: of them? 43 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 4: And the ad? 44 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: So the Dawn Project is kind of the campaign of 45 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: a guy named Dan O'Dowd who is a longtime software 46 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: executive who has this kind of one man, quixotic campaign 47 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: about Tesla and autopilot. He thinks it's unsafe. He thinks 48 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: that regulators are not doing enough, and for years he 49 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: has been kind of after autopilot. He's run ads in 50 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: the New York Times. Last year they did small Super 51 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: Bowl ads where they were kind of pressuring regulators. This 52 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: year they did ads that are really kind of pressuring 53 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: consumers to boycott a company. But the term super Bowl 54 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: ad is a little overstated. I mean, this was not 55 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,839 Speaker 1: a national buy. These were very targeted ads and very 56 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: weird small markets. Dover, Delaware, Traverse City, Michigan, Santa Barbara, California, 57 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: parts of DC. So like a lot of people didn't 58 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: actually see these ads. 59 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 3: No, and I didn't myself. Traverse City, Michigan. Why Trevor 60 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 3: Where I couldn't pick out Trevor's city Michigan on a map. 61 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 4: Why is in northern Michigan. 62 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 1: It's on the lake. It's where a lot of auto 63 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: industry executives have second homes. 64 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 2: I believe Pete Boodhages, the Transportation Secretary, may may have 65 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 2: a home there. At least that's what the CNN story 66 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 2: about this ad said, we should say super Bowl ads 67 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 2: are of course often used to sell products, they're also 68 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 2: sometimes used to garner media attention. You know, if you 69 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 2: were watching, you might have seen the ads for Jesus, 70 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 2: the ads for Scientology, and of course the ads for 71 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 2: this Tesla thing. And I think in all those cases, right, 72 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 2: this is part of a media operation. So part of 73 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 2: the idea is to just sort of call attention to 74 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: the point that this guy, Dano Daoud has been making 75 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 2: and he's got a dog in this fight. He makes 76 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 2: competing software. 77 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: Green Hills Software. I mean they make software for a 78 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: variety of clients. Some of them are automotive. I mean, 79 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: they don't make something that's like a direct competitor to 80 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: Tesla Autopilot per se. But I think what's weird about 81 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: this guy is, like, listen, like NITSA is investigating autopilot 82 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: scores of like plaintiffs attorneys are suing Tesla over autopilot. 83 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: Like there is like a regulatory and a legal process 84 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: at play here, and like he's just seems very frustrated 85 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: that it is not going fast enough, and so he's 86 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: done all these things, Like you know, got these like 87 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: mannequins to look like kids and tried to like recreate crashes. 88 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: And it's like this, it's an interesting one man campaign, 89 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: but it's like he's pressuring NITZA to do more. Well, 90 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: I mean, NITSA has like this whole defect investigation underway, 91 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: so I don't know what else the regulatory reagencies could 92 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: be doing. 93 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 3: So NITSA being the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration, that 94 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 3: is a mouthful. They are investigating Tesla and autopilot. Give 95 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 3: us a brief refresher course, Dana. Autopilot does what exactly 96 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 3: and how widely used is it by Tesla owners? 97 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: So the term autopilot is confusing to people because it's name, 98 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 1: it's legacy really comes from aviation and the idea that 99 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 1: like airline pilots use autopilot when they fly planes. Tesla 100 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,679 Speaker 1: has kind of adopted this word to the tertiary world 101 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 1: of like roadways and freeways and stop signs and school 102 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: buses and fire trucks and roundabouts. And it is a 103 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: driver assistance feature that comes standard on all Tesla cars. 104 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: And you know, it is not capable of driving itself, 105 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: but it helps you like keep lanes and if you're 106 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: tired and fatigue. You know, a lot of Tesla owners 107 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: actually square by it. I've used autopilot myself several times 108 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: when I've rented a Tesla. It's actually like a pretty 109 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: great system. 110 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 3: There is a full self driving which is a separate 111 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 3: sort of product under construction right. 112 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 1: Separate software called FSD beta for Full self Driving Beta, 113 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: which promises that one day it will be self driving, 114 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: but right now it's not. And just the whole name 115 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: calling something FSD when the driver still really has to 116 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: be in control is like a whole kind of marketing 117 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: advertising issue that a lot of people have problems with. 118 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: And what happened with Tesla is that very early on 119 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: a lot of folks that were driving Tesla cars when 120 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: autopilot was engaged, we're smashing into fire trucks. Well, it 121 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: was like, what is going on here? Is there something 122 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: about autopilot where they're not where the car is not 123 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: seeing or inferring or reacting to emergency vehicle lights, or 124 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: is confused by these stopped vehicles. And so NITSA opened 125 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: this investigation into all these accidents, and you know, like 126 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: NITSA does a very thorough job. They take years, and 127 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: you know, these investigations are sort of ongoing, and in 128 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: the meantime you can sort of see that the agency 129 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: has kind of pushed the company to improve its safety culture. 130 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: They've dinged them for all kinds of things like the 131 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: font size of their alerts. They've asked them to kind 132 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: of bug drivers a little bit more. 133 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 3: So. 134 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: This, this Dawn Project is like a separate track where 135 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: you've got regulators doing their things, You've got all these 136 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: lawsuits and then and then the Dawn Project is just 137 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: trying to continually get across this message in their mind, 138 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: which is that you know, Tesla's are just completely unsafe 139 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: and consumers should boycott them completely. 140 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: I mean, Dan O'Dowd is self interested, and he's kind 141 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 2: of self aggrandizing. And we're talking about a Super Bowl 142 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 2: commercial that showed in like three you know, Washington, d C. 143 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 4: And like three time Michigan. 144 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean like really like giving this guy a 145 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 2: lot of airtime and maybe undeservedly, except that there are 146 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 2: real problems here. And you know, Dan is talking about 147 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 2: auto pilot and full self driving. Both those names are bad, right. 148 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: They both imply something that the car that you would 149 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 2: think the car does, but that it doesn't actually do. 150 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 2: And for years Tesla drivers have sort of been told 151 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 2: in various ways, buy Elon Musk and buy Tesla supporters 152 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 2: and buy people on Twitter and so on, that you 153 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 2: can you essentially can can stop paying attention to the road. 154 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: And that is not what it says in the Tesla manual. 155 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 2: That is not the official position. But like when when 156 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 2: you have a CEO going around saying, hey, next year, 157 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 2: you're gonna this is gonna drive itself from you know, 158 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 2: Los Angeles to New York with no interventions, and you know, 159 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 2: distributing videos on the Internet in which you know, it 160 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 2: looks like the car is doing everything. That creates a 161 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 2: very misleading perception. And there are real problems with not 162 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 2: just Tesla's autonomous vehicle technology, but all like these problems 163 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 2: that Odoubt has been pointing to school, you know, emergency vehicles, kids, 164 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 2: cyclists and so on. These are across the board problems 165 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 2: that no one has solved, including Elon Musk. 166 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 3: Just today, actually the Washington Post came out with the 167 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 3: story saying that there was a first apparently fatality from somebody. 168 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 3: I guess my question for the two of you is this, 169 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 3: I get these issues in these concerns, and I wonder 170 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 3: if autopilot, as a result, we're saying is not safe 171 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 3: or let me express it differently, is it less safe 172 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 3: and worse than human drivers? 173 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 4: Who? 174 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 3: Human drivers are pretty awful, right, and we're getting consistently worse. 175 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 2: So, first of all, I've totally pushed back. Human drivers 176 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: are not pretty awful. Humans are very good at driving, 177 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 2: you know, most people will drive their entire lifetimes, you know, 178 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 2: without being involved in a in a you know, serious crash. 179 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:45,199 Speaker 2: The thing is that autopilot is very similar to technology 180 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 2: that is in other cars, and as Dana says, it's 181 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,599 Speaker 2: super useful. So like if you have a sort of 182 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 2: high end GM car, you might have something like Super Crews, Honda, Toyota, 183 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 2: all these car companies have made amazing advances in terms 184 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 2: of driver assistance. So lane keeping breaking for you if 185 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 2: you fail to hit the brake fast. I have a Honda. 186 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 2: My Odyssey has a version of this. You use it, 187 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 2: and I use it. 188 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 4: It's really good. 189 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 2: But the thing is it doesn't replace the human. It 190 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: augments the human. And the criticism that's being made by 191 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 2: Odoubt and also many others is that Tesla has not 192 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 2: communicated that well and has in fact, at times seemed 193 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 2: to deliberately kind of blur the distinction between self driving 194 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 2: and some kind of driver assistance. 195 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 1: So I just want to make one note about the 196 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: Washington Post story, which is an issue that has come 197 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: up in a lot of these autopilot stories that are 198 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: in the media, and that is that the drivers in 199 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: that vehicle were drunk, and so it's very difficult to 200 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: separate out what was autopilot and what was human error, 201 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,079 Speaker 1: Like you should not be. But this also gets back 202 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: to the point of how autopilot and fst beta lures 203 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: people into thinking that the car can do something that 204 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: it cannot. But there is no lawyer in their right 205 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: mind who's going to take a case for people that 206 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: were three times over the legal limit. And so it's 207 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: just this tricky thing where you know, a lot of 208 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: these accidents are happening because the drivers think that the 209 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: car is capable of doing more than it really can. 210 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: This is what regulators are being pressured to act on. 211 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: And then the data is it safer or not is 212 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 1: all over the place. Because autopilot is really supposed to 213 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:23,839 Speaker 1: be used on highways, some people don't use it on highways. 214 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: Tesla cherry picks how they use their data. Good data 215 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: is hard to come by. There's a wide variety of 216 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: perspectives about whether it is safer or not. We don't 217 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: hear about the times that autopilot actually saved people. And 218 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: you know, like YouTube and Twitter is also full of 219 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: all of these Tesla owners that are like, oh my god, 220 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: like I had no idea that this truck was about 221 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: to cut me off. An autopilot saved my life. I mean, 222 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: so I just want to you know, I'm not trying 223 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: to like the autopilot defender here, but I think it 224 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: is important to notice that we hear about the crashes, 225 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: we hear about the fatalities, we don't really hear about 226 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 1: all the times that people swear that, like, without autopilot, 227 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: they would be dead in a dish. 228 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 3: So you're trying to Dano doubt is trying to target 229 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 3: policy makers and testing at. 230 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: This point, he's trying to target consumers because the ads 231 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: that ran this weekend are boycott Tesla to keep your 232 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: kids safe. Tesla must be held accountable. So he's actually 233 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 1: going directly for the consumers because you know, the regulators 234 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: are doing their process, and I think that he's now 235 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: trying to target like the American auto buyer. 236 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 2: It's a media thing, it's not. I mean, yes, the 237 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: ads are framed about consumers, but the idea is to 238 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 2: like make some noise and to get to get media 239 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,079 Speaker 2: to cover cover this. And I think you know, he 240 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 2: areed in Washington as well, so like clearly there is 241 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 2: a there is a thought to policy makers, right, But 242 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 2: again I think it's it's about trying to to The 243 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 2: reason you buy a Super Bowl ad is not because 244 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 2: it's like an efficient way to reach people. It's because 245 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 2: it's a great way to make some noise, especially a 246 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 2: Super Bowl ad like this. 247 00:12:58,160 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: I just also want to point out that, you know, 248 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: one of the the ads use the NTSB seal and 249 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: the NTSB was really upset about that. 250 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,199 Speaker 4: And the NTSB being yes. 251 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: The NTSP the National Transportation Safety Board, they put out 252 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: a statement saying that they did not authorize the use 253 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: of the seal in their ad. They had nothing to 254 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: do with this ad. They didn't. So it's like, you know, 255 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: you just have to like Dan O'Dowd, he's got a campaign. 256 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: And to Maxi's point, like free media is the name 257 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: of the game with these things. 258 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 3: Now joining us is Barry Ritholts, host of Bloomberg's Masters 259 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 3: in Business podcast, where he has interviewed I don't know, Berry, 260 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 3: how many hundreds, over five hundred, over five hundred business 261 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:42,479 Speaker 3: leaders and thinkers. 262 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 4: Okay, Barry, my first. 263 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 3: Question for you is where does Elon rank in the 264 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 3: Barry Ridtholts pantheon of Masters in Business? 265 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 5: So you got to give him mad props for the 266 00:13:55,000 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 5: things he's done so special, so well he he basically 267 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 5: could have let PayPal become a disaster. Somehow that became 268 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 5: a big win for him. The original concept of Tesla 269 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 5: was let's take some lotuses and jam the underside filled 270 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 5: with laptop batteries. Talk about a pipe dream. He joined 271 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 5: the company was he didn't create Tesla, but he joined 272 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 5: the company and basically put them on the right footing. 273 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 5: And then I think SpaceX. So when you look at 274 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 5: what he's accomplished across his career, it's fantastic. He's almost 275 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 5: single handedly forced the automotive industry into electrifying and reducing 276 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 5: their carbon footprint. He has reinvigorated the space race and 277 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 5: made it more affordable to put payloads into orbit and 278 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 5: both in and out of the car industry, and I 279 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 5: generally got a sense during the early ramp up of Tesla, 280 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 5: or maybe was the later ramp up of Tesla post 281 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 5: twenty thirteen, fourteen fifteen, you know when the model s 282 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 5: really started to take off. Jeff Bezos is the guy 283 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 5: that I think was the warning to the automobile industry, Hey, 284 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 5: don't let Elon do to you what Bezos did to 285 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 5: retailers everywhere that if you just are going to sit 286 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 5: back and let a modern software driven digital platform steal 287 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 5: your lunch, you're in trouble. And I think whatever you 288 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 5: say positive or negative about Elon Musk, I think he 289 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 5: forced the automobile industry into adapting what I think is 290 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 5: a superior technology. And I say that it pains me 291 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 5: to say that as a petrol head into adopting electric 292 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 5: I don't know, a decade earlier than they would have. 293 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 2: Otherwise I would argue he's an amazing marketer, Like an 294 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 2: amazing like. 295 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 5: In terms of jobs level market. 296 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 2: Yes, in terms of just like formulate a pitch and 297 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 2: like bring people along. 298 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 3: And and it also shows selling a story. 299 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 2: Selling a story, and it shows you a little bit 300 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 2: of the difficulty there because like the story has had 301 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 2: to change. It's changed a couple of times, right like 302 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 2: and and now and and and the story when you're 303 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 2: selling you know, what amounts to like a you know, 304 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 2: a Corolla but with an electric battery, which is what 305 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 2: they're trying to sell. Now, like that is maybe a 306 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 2: different I don't know, that's that's a different story. And 307 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 2: I think that is creating continual tests for Tesla, and 308 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 2: they're only going to increase, you know, if if the 309 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 2: company continues to grow. 310 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 4: So Barry, he. 311 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 3: Did indeed achieve these things, and he got these companies 312 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 3: to where he got them, and so investors obviously sank 313 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 3: a lot of money into his companies and made a 314 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 3: lot of money. I mean, and I think he made 315 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 3: many many investors very rich people. 316 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 4: But where do. 317 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 3: The investors you speak with, you know, where do they 318 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 3: land on on must Now? Given his evolution as a 319 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 3: public persona as a celebrity, as a leader, when you 320 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 3: when you talk to clients at Ridtholt's Wealth Management, what 321 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 3: kind of chatter do you hear about? 322 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 5: So we're a plain, vanilla, boring allocator and we're putting 323 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 5: people in big bold index funds, and we have some 324 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 5: other things we do direct indexing, and a behavioral based 325 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 5: tactical portfolio. But primarily, if you buy a domestic US fund, 326 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 5: you're going to have some exposure to Tesla. So it 327 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 5: comes up less from the investment standpoint and more from hey, 328 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 5: does it make any sense? And so when people come 329 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 5: up to me and when I get the question, what's 330 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 5: going on with Tesla? Does it make sense that they're 331 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:50,239 Speaker 5: more valuable than the next ten comomobile companies combine? And 332 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 5: the short answer is no, that doesn't make any sense 333 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 5: at all. But if you can tell me when the 334 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 5: market is going to say, oh, we got this wrong, 335 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 5: let's sell off Tesla by these other ones, that's when 336 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 5: you have to worry about it. Now, this has been 337 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 5: going on for years. This isn't a secret. Everybody knows it, 338 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 5: and the market seems to more or less be comfortable 339 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 5: with it. 340 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 3: Which is to mattress point about his ability to sell 341 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 3: a story and to sell to investors that beyond just 342 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 3: a car company and an ev car company, it's also 343 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 3: a technology company selling autopilot. 344 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: Elon has always been selling the future, like a vision 345 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,439 Speaker 1: of the future that evolves and changes as each milestone 346 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: is reached. You know, they go to the next one. 347 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, in the early days of SpaceX, 348 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: nobody thought that they would ever land this rocket on 349 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: a drone ship in the ocean, and now they've done 350 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: it multiple, chundreds of times, multiple times, and you know, 351 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: he's not going to stop until he creates his Mars colony. 352 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 1: And there is a throng of people who are sort 353 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: of entranced by that. And there are a lot of 354 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: Wall Street investors who, you know, there's like an Elon 355 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: premium with his companies, which is why all of his startups, 356 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 1: from neurally Link to the Boring Company to xID Ai 357 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: are able to raise capital because people want to be 358 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,959 Speaker 1: in Musk Circle and he's made people a lot of 359 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: money and they they you know, he's like a financial 360 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: engineer as much as a real one. 361 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 4: Here's a question for you, Barry. 362 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,439 Speaker 3: So he is obviously, with this public persona made a 363 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 3: lot of friends and a lot of fans. He's got 364 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 3: a lot of fans, He's also made a lot of enemies. 365 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 3: Your sense of just how much Elon is hurting Tesla's 366 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 3: sales right now? 367 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 5: So that's a fascinating question because a number of things 368 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 5: have happened over the past couple of years that really 369 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 5: it's hard to tell if they put a dent into sales. 370 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 5: So all the problems with full self driving automatic driving, 371 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 5: it's two years away for like, I don't know, forever, 372 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 5: eight ten years now, so it's hard to judge. And 373 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 5: yet at the same time, we had some substantial price 374 00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 5: cuts over the past few years in Tesla's which I 375 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 5: was kind of surprised because I'm familiar with basic economics. 376 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,199 Speaker 5: I was surprised that this is a brilliant move to 377 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 5: capture market share and put the other companies back on 378 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 5: their heels. Okay, maybe, but I'm concerned about profits, not 379 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 5: market share. 380 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 3: The only thing that I thought that maybe could be 381 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 3: akin to is Saudi Arabia saying, and you know, you 382 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 3: know what, I'm just gonna flood the market with cheap 383 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 3: oil and I'm going to drive out all the other higher, 384 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 3: higher cost producers. If one can make an argument for it, 385 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 3: that would sort of be like maybe what it was 386 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 3: like as sort of a power move. But we do 387 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 3: know that, you know, right Dan, as he's cut prices, 388 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 3: their growth is slowing markedly correct. 389 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, but the whole EV industry growth is slowing. It's like, 390 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 1: you know, like EV sales are still growing, they're just 391 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: not like the fifty percent year of a year growth 392 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: that the market thought was gonna happen. 393 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 3: All that once achodetic because Barry has taken my highlighter 394 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 3: and he's drawn something for us. 395 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 4: What have you drawn here? I've got a visual aid. 396 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 5: This is just simply the technology adoption cycle, which starts 397 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 5: with the early adopters. So yeah, that group, and then 398 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 5: eventually you move into the broad you know, the next level. 399 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 5: You know, you go from innovators to early adopters to 400 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 5: at a certain point you hit a peak. And so 401 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 5: you have two things happening simultaneously in the EV car market. First, 402 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 5: people are starting to understand the advantages and disadvantages of 403 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 5: an electric vehicle. And again, as a petrol head, it's 404 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 5: hard to argue it's a more reliable platform. So that's 405 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 5: the broad picture. The legacy internal combustion engine has almost 406 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 5: a century of infrastructure built out that you're not going 407 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 5: to catch up to in a dozen years. It's going 408 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 5: to take you ten, twenty thirty years to get there. 409 00:21:55,560 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 5: And over that transitional period, the hybrid is is filling 410 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 5: the gap. 411 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 3: Let me ask you this though, back on Elon the 412 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 3: entrepreneur and the salesman, perhaps as good as a technologist and 413 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 3: an engineering mind as he is. What are the great 414 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 3: salespeople of our time? 415 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 2: Right? 416 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 5: Maybe no doubt Steve Jobs the second, Like everybody, how 417 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 5: often you hit people described as the next Steve Jobs 418 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 5: And it's always a pale imitation. 419 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: My theory in that is Steve Jobs died in what 420 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: two thousand and eleven, That was when Tesla was ramping 421 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: up the models, and so I think the media had 422 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: quite a lot of a role. The tech press in 423 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: particular had quite a lot of a big role to 424 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 1: play in this because Steve Jobs died and everyone was like, 425 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: who's the new Steve Jobs. 426 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 5: But that ability to create that reality distortion field where 427 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 5: people suspend disbelief and get pulled into a universe that 428 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 5: doesn't exist. And it's say, to be fair to Elon, 429 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 5: it's a hopeful vision of the future where pollution is 430 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 5: a thing of the past, and climate change has been 431 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 5: managed and even if we have over population, well everybody 432 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 5: just head over to my country home on Mars and 433 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 5: this plenty of room for all. I mean, he has 434 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 5: created a narrative that is hopeful, and that's not the worst. 435 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 2: Thing, the Steve Jobs thing. I think that was something 436 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 2: that Elon did himself. I mean he has that he 437 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 2: has explicitly modeled himself on Steve Jobs, like he I 438 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 2: mean you look look at look at. 439 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. 440 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 2: Like the way he presents himself as a CEO, the 441 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 2: way he conceptualizes the role of a manager, the way he. 442 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 4: Goes, the way he tweets, the. 443 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 2: Rollout of the new vehicles, he does the choice of 444 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 2: Walter isa Look at the covers of those books, right, 445 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 2: I mean it's like he dial he ordered up his own, 446 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 2: you know, Isaacson treatment. And I think that has been 447 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 2: an effective approach. People were entranced by Steve Jobs, and 448 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,479 Speaker 2: to some extent, Tesla has managed to create an Apple 449 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 2: like following and has been able to convince investors that 450 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 2: the economics for cars are the same as the economics 451 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 2: for smartphone. 452 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 5: So who's the Tim Cook in the Elon Musk story. 453 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 5: We know Gwen is the Tim Cook of SpaceX. Who 454 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 5: is the Tim Cook of Tesla? 455 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 4: Does said person exist? 456 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 1: So that's always been the interesting dynamic at Tesla whenever 457 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: anyone has kind of risen up to be the sort 458 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: of de facto number two they've they've always been axed, 459 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: or they've disappeared suddenly. We saw that most recently with 460 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 1: Zach Kerkorn, the very highly regarded CFO. He left in August. 461 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: No one exactly knows why. 462 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 5: So that reminds me a little bit of Jack Welsh, 463 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 5: who was running General Electric for twenty years and there 464 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 5: was a just series of CEOs coming up under him, 465 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 5: or potential CEOs, and they knew Jack had a death 466 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 5: grip on GE and all these guys. The S and 467 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 5: P five hundred is littered with CEOs who were potential 468 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 5: Jack Welsh replacements. There's a whole longer story about what 469 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 5: a terrible job Welch did, but there are some parallels 470 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 5: there in that it becomes hard to retain talent at 471 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 5: the highest level if they don't see a path to 472 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 5: work their way up the ladder, if not succeed the CEO. 473 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 5: You know, we saw that a little bit with Jamie 474 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 5: Diamond at JP Morgan Chase, and we definitely saw it 475 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 5: with Jack Welsh at GE. The question is, at a 476 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 5: certain point Elon is going to have to focus on 477 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 5: whatever the next thing is, and he needs someone to 478 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 5: run Tesla when he's too busy. I have no idea 479 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 5: who that person might be. 480 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: Well, and it's really hard for someone from the outside 481 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: to succeed at Tesla because the culture is so unique 482 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: that the various people that they've hired from other industries 483 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: or from other companies have never lasted long. I mean, 484 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: the top the four named executives now at the top 485 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: of the roster, there are all long time Tesla executives 486 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: who've been there forever. 487 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 2: No one else can be as hardcore as I musk, 488 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 2: and that that's true. 489 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 4: I mean, this is definitely true. 490 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 3: So, Barry, last question for you, your final thought on Elon 491 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 3: and the difference between physics and humans. 492 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 5: Sure, so his greatest successes have come I don't want 493 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 5: to say, conquering the rules of physics, but working within 494 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,719 Speaker 5: the laws of physics to bend our expectations as to 495 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:40,679 Speaker 5: what's possible. Very quick, long range software driven cars, the 496 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 5: ability to launch cheap, renewable, reusable rockets into space and 497 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 5: land them where He's kind of, you know, seems to 498 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 5: have lost the thread. No pun intended was at Twitter. 499 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 5: By the way, we don't know the impact on Tesla 500 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 5: sales from him being such a kind of wa could 501 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 5: do on Twitter because we don't have the control group. 502 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 5: You know, we can't run an experiment. But I know 503 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 5: personally and all right, I live in the New York area, 504 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 5: which tends to vote Democratic, but that tends to be 505 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 5: his tesla potential base. You have California, you have Austin, Texas. 506 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 5: You have you know, the liberal coasts, the big city. 507 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 5: You have the cash to write, they have the income. 508 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 5: They they're concerned about the environment, and they're willing to 509 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 5: put up with some of the inconveniences of an electric 510 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 5: car if they think they're they're doing good for the world, 511 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 5: like I'm That is eventually a series of Harvard Business 512 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 5: School case studies how to alienate your core customer and 513 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 5: how long can you get away with that? My last 514 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 5: thought is he needs a couple of no men. He 515 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,719 Speaker 5: needs some people around him to say, Elon, that's a 516 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 5: really dumb idea. Elon forty four billion dollars, that doesn't 517 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 5: make any sense. Elon, focus on rockets and cars. Leave 518 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 5: this social media crap to other people. And he doesn't 519 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 5: have anybody. Not only does any of people willing to 520 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 5: stand up to him and tell him that's a terrible idea. 521 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 5: That inner circle really seems to be a bunch of 522 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 5: cheerleaders urging him on. You know, you know, Chuck Chuck 523 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,959 Speaker 5: Chuck at a frat house, every worst instinct he has, 524 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 5: and they're encouraging. 525 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 4: And chug he does. 526 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 3: I guess, Dana, last word with you, I suppose the 527 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 3: only person who pushes back some or that we know 528 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 3: about on a regular basis, is indeed Gwen shot well 529 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 3: at SpaceX Or is that mischaracterizing her role? 530 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: No, I think that's fair. I mean Max and I 531 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,719 Speaker 1: had a long, lengthy interview with Gwen and she will 532 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: like she you know, if you think about it as 533 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: like a dysfunctional family, he's the scary dad and she's 534 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: the mom who constantly runs interference with employees but also 535 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: with like NASA and the Air Force. And you know, 536 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: she told a great story about how Musk was ready 537 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: to cancel Falcon Heavy and she ran and she was 538 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: getting text messages from others like you got to come 539 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,479 Speaker 1: in here, and she ran into the meeting and was like, no, no, Elon, 540 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: you can't do that. Like the Air Force has reserved 541 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: this rocket, like Falcon Heavy is going ahead, and he's like, oh, yeah, 542 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: you're right, and so he will change his mind if 543 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: he's presented with the right data. But I think there's 544 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: very few people who have the kind of emotional intelligence 545 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: to go head to head with him and understand the 546 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: way he thinks and can manage him. 547 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to Elon H and thanks to our panel, 548 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 3: Max Barry and Dana. 549 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 5: Thank you, Thank you great to be here. 550 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 3: This episode was produced by Stacy Wong. Naomi Shaven and 551 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 3: Rayhan Harmanci are our senior editors. 552 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 4: The idea for this. 553 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 3: Very show also came from Rayhan. Blake Maples handles engineering, 554 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 3: and we get special editing assistants from Jeff Grocott. Our 555 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 3: supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson Huge Thanks to Angel We 556 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 3: See You and Joel Weber. The elin ing theme is 557 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 3: written and performed by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiyira. Sage 558 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 3: Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcast and our executive producer. 559 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 3: I am David Papadopoulos. If you have a minute, rate 560 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 3: and review our show, it'll help other listeners find us. 561 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 4: See you next week.