WEBVTT - Wonder Woman: Maggie Haberman 0:00:00.800 --> 0:00:09.520 Hi, Brian, Hi Katie, and hello listeners. Brian. This week 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:13.720 marks one year since Donald Trump's inauguration as President of 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:18.840 these United States. Don't happy Trump adversary, Katie, thank you 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:22.079 very much. It's only been a year, it is. It 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:25.400 certainly does feel a little longer than a year, and 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:28.520 a lot has happened in the past twelve months. To 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:32.440 mark the occasion, we sat down with Maggie Haberman, someone 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:34.400 who has had a front row seat for much of 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:37.360 the Trump administration. This, by the way, is the first 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:40.320 in a series of podcasts we're doing that we're calling 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:43.920 wonder Women. We're going to be interviewing a bunch of 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:47.000 female powerhouses and the weeks to come. We thought it 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:50.720 was sort of something in the air about girl power 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:55.040 right now and about women in general. And Maggie definitely 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:58.080 qualifies as a wonder woman Brian, for sure. I mean, 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:01.520 she arguably knows Donald Trump more and better than any 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:04.800 other reporter covering him. She started writing about him in 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:09.040 two thousand six for the tabloids here in New York 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:13.240 and through Politico and The New York Times. She's always 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:16.080 had Trump in her sight. She's a top White House 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:18.840 correspondent for the New York Times, as many of you know, 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:22.960 and she appears on CNN regularly as a political analyst, 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:25.600 and over the past year she's really gotten scoop after 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:28.560 scoop on the Trump administration, and in fact was doing 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:32.160 some reporting on her phone as we were interviewing her. 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:35.959 That's right, she was texting almost the entire time. She's 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:39.080 known as a huge multitasker. I think The New Yorker 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:43.280 described her as a humming bird, effortlessly doing what she 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:46.880 needs to do, which is everything at once. So do 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:49.720 you remember the story, Katie about President Trump watching TV 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:54.280 in his bathrobe with news that Trump told Russian officials 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:58.160 he fired FBI director James Kummy because he was quote crazy, 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:01.600 a real nut job. I certainly do, Brian, Well, Maggie 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:04.920 was behind both of those stories. In our conversation, we 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:08.600 talked with Maggie about her first job in journalism, if 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.720 anything about the Trump presidency has surprised her, and the 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:16.880 challenges of covering this White House both professionally and personally. 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:21.880 You were the original, really busy woman, So I feel 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:23.919 like I'm only sort of following in your path. Well, 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:26.040 I think you have me be You've been called a 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:30.680 Trump whisper a West wing beat colossus and also maybe 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.720 the greatest political reporter working today. Mozele on that, Maggie, 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:39.120 of course, the president calls you something different altogether on occasion, 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:41.760 a purveyor of fake news at the failing New York 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:46.520 Times one year in. How is Donald Trump been similar 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:50.760 to or different from your expectations? Uh? The day he 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:53.560 was sworn in, Not a single thing that has happened 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:57.200 has surprised me. Literally, not a single thing that has happened. 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:00.480 The only thing that that surprised me, Uh, after I 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:01.880 just said not a single thing, I was the only 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:05.400 quasi single thing is And thank you for all the 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:08.240 very kind words, but um, at least half of them 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:11.320 are not true. Um, was that he fired call me 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:12.440 because I thought if he was going to do what 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:14.799 he would have done it on the first day. Um. 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.680 But this has played out, if not in the precise 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:21.120 ways in which I would have imagined, um, along the 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:24.480 same contours and along the same lines. Um. He is 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:26.200 who he is. He has not changed. I mean, I 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:28.320 think one of the one of the conversations that I 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:32.400 find sort of head scratching right now is this idea 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:35.560 that um, which I think is promulgated, primarily by Michael 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:39.160 Wolf's book, that there's some kind of a deterioration. He's 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:42.160 the same person who I was interviewing six years ago. Uh. 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:44.600 If people wanted to believe during the campaign that there 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.600 was a strategy, that's fine, But there wasn't a strategy. 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:49.520 He did things because it felt good to him, or 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:51.720 because he liked it, or because it was fun. He 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:55.440 you know, his axios had a story that he's now 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:57.360 not getting into the to the west wing until eleven 0:03:57.360 --> 0:03:59.200 o'clock in the morning. That's about him keeping with what 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:01.600 he did a Trump Tower. So I ask you, Maggie, 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:06.000 did he run his company Trump Enterprises or whatever it's 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:09.880 called organization Trump org, dot com organization may be generous, 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.120 did he run it the same way that he's running 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:16.520 the White House? Because it makes you wonder, how was 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:21.000 he ever able to be moderately successful? If so? So, 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:23.200 I think the thing that people forget about him is 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:26.600 that A he began his business with UM a hefty 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:29.240 loan from his father. So this self made thing is 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:33.320 not quite true. UM he was in real estate. He 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:36.679 was never seen as one of the more successful developers around. 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:42.279 He had four bankruptcies, not personal bankruptcies, but his businesses 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:45.960 had had problems. Um. And then he went after the bankruptcies, 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:49.560 he went into the licensing business, and he went into 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:53.680 reality television. Um. His business was essentially a mom and 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:57.279 pop shop. It was not a fortune company, was not 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.480 anything close to that. And he ran it by instantly 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:05.120 making people play for his affections. And he despite you know, 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:10.039 sort of constantly picking fights for interpersonal confrontation, he really 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:12.680 tries to avoid it. Um. You know. For instance, when 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:17.000 his campaign manager, Korey Lewandowski was fired in six it 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:20.120 was Don Jr. And Trump's lawyer Michael Cohen who did it. 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:22.920 It was not Trump himself, and Trump in fact wanted 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:24.719 Corey to know what a great guy he still thought 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:28.040 he was. So yeah, this all is exactly who he 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:31.200 was before. So he thrives in chaos. He creates chaos, 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:33.120 and then he responds to the chaos he creates. It's 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:37.520 all the cyclical feedback loop that you know, we're all 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:41.159 on with him now and his approval writing is in 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.160 the thirties and he seems to have polarized the country 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:48.360 more than any president I can really recall. But you know, 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.240 him really well, at this point, what do you think 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:55.480 are the biggest misconceptions about him among both his supporters 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:58.280 and his detractors. That's an excellent question. I mean, I 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:02.120 think that, Um, I think the most common misperception, no 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:04.560 matter what side of the aisle you're on, in terms 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:06.960 of him, is that there's a strategy at play, that 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:10.800 he's doing it, that he has some some guidance, master plan. 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:12.839 And then the second um, and this is really I 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:16.360 think um been interesting for Republicans and Democrats to deal with, 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:19.120 is that he's got an ideology. There is no ideology. 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:23.359 He's got a handful of it, like impulses, um, that 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:27.160 have always animated him. But he is perfectly comfortable being 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:31.520 inconsistent on policy. He is perfectly comfortable taking two conflicting positions. 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:35.480 Consistency is not a hop goblin that gets to him particularly. 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:39.320 I think those are the main misconceptions about him. I 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.360 also think that the I mean one that I think 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:45.000 it's really hard for people to grasp again whether you 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:46.640 like him or don't like him, but really for people 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:50.279 who don't like him, is that the storminess of his personality, 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:54.160 which clearly is pronounced and frequent, is not incessant. It's 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:56.360 sort of rhythmic. It's whether it comes in and then 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:58.040 it blows storm blows out, comes in and then it 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:00.760 blows out. And we wrote about this, Glen Thrush and 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:03.600 Peter Baker and I did in December in a piece 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:06.599 about how he functions as president. And what can be 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:08.680 very darring for people who didn't know him for a 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:11.160 long time is that he can scream at you and 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:13.160 then be making small talk with you a few minutes later, 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:16.040 because he's vinted, he's gotten an out of his system, 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:17.600 and it doesn't occur to him how you might be 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:19.920 receiving it, and he doesn't really care. The only thing 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.320 that is predictable about him is that he is unpredictable 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.640 and his reactions can be original. So you've known Donald 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:28.440 Trump a long time because he would tell you I 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:32.280 hardly know him well. The facts suggests otherwise. But you 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:36.200 were both a big part of the New York tabloid world. 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:40.239 You as a trigger part of well you you wrote 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:43.080 about him in the New York Posts and Daily News 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:47.480 for many years. Um and you come from a media family. 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.480 Your your dad as a Pulitzer Prize winning New York 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:55.040 Times reporter your mom's a big pr person. Um, so 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:57.960 we'll just go back a little bit before we continue 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:02.400 talking about Trump today. Obsessive lee, which is all anyone Maggie. God, 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:04.200 you must get so tired of it. Thank you so 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.000 much for doing it with us. You must be like, 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:10.640 So let's just take a little interlude and talk about Maggie. Yes, 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:13.200 let's talk about you. Okay, you said you never wanted 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:16.800 to be a reporter. How did that happen? I couldn't 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:18.960 get a job working in a magazine out of college 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:24.400 where I had studied fiction writing and child child psychology 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:28.200 and turned out to be pretty relevant to your job today. 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:34.480 Deal in fiction, but you do deal with children. I 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:38.360 have three children, Um I now and some would argue 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:43.559 for anyway. Anyway, I couldn't get a job, and so 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:46.760 uh I got hired as a clerk at the new Post, 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:49.280 which was not a glamorous job. But it was really 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:52.360 like fitching coffee, fitching facts is. But I loved the 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:54.000 way the newsroom was. I loved the rhythm of it. 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:56.720 I love the place and what they would do. I 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:58.920 think they still do it there is they would, um, 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:03.040 they would send reporter copy kids out. That's what we 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:05.840 were called copy kids. Um out on assignment, you know, 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:08.520 go to a fire or go let stick out of hospital, 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:12.760 go whatever. Um. The height was getting assigned a day, 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.040 so you know, you're the Tuesday copy kid who goes 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:17.360 out and goes out an assignment. And I got myself 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:19.480 in the rotation and I really loved it. Uh. And 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:21.560 that was that was it. But it was not what 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.840 I planned for. What was it about reporting that really 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.400 kind of floated your boat? Have you seen a movie 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:29.640 The Paper, The Michael Paton movie. I mean that was 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:32.600 the New York Post in the nineties. It was it 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.560 was interesting, it was colorful. It was the adrenaline rush 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:38.000 of a scoop of doing it well. And they're talking 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:41.040 about being in a newsroom that I think it's so fun. 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:43.120 I agree, it's just fun. It is fun. And I 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:45.720 mean the New York Post was the most pure fun 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:49.200 job I ever had. Um and uh. And that that 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:51.160 New York Post doesn't exist anymore. That New York Post 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:53.199 does not exist in quite some time. But what's happened 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.520 in the New York Post. There were editor changes and 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.520 just sort of, um, it's just a different place now. Um. 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:00.560 But what if you always feel comfort ble with like 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:03.720 you know, headless body founded topless bar and stuff. I 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.679 didn't have a problem. I mean I was also a bartender, 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:09.120 so like I might be the wrong the wrong target 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:11.160 audience for that, But it wasn't a topless bar. It 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:13.880 was not it was right, it wasn't well but so 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.120 I mean again, so like, what's Donald Trump's favorite New 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:19.320 York Post headline? It was the one supposedly quoting Marlin 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:24.080 Maples sang best sex I ever had. It was No, 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:26.240 he didn't call it. He didn't know what happened. Was 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:29.680 so Steve Cuzo, who is UM, does real estate coverage 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:32.599 and I think some business are there's some business or 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:35.480 page six coverage for the for the Post wrote a 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:37.280 book called It's Alive, and it was all about how 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:40.520 the Post almost died until Murdoch bought it back in 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:43.720 ninety three. And in the book he talks about how 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.240 the reporter Bill Hoffman, who now works for Chris Ready 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:48.960 at news Max Um and Bill Hofman said across from 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.160 me for years because I was a dictationist and that 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:53.240 was the way the newsroom was laid out. But Bill 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:55.960 got a friend of Marla Maples on the phone and 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.280 he said, you know, I thought the sex was pretty good, right, 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:00.520 and the woman was like yeah, and he's like best 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:02.640 she ever had, right, And the woman's like, I guess. 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:06.360 And that's how that headline came to base. So I 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:08.920 was going to say, such great and I feel so 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:12.040 much better in the New York Post. Hey, I love 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:13.400 the ear Post. You're not gonna hear me say a 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.520 bad word about it, but um, at least not right here. 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:21.240 But but but that's the world that Trump comes from, too, right, 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:24.440 feels true, is mostly true. I like the way that reads. 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.320 And so And the first time, in fact, you quoted 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:29.600 Donald Trump and a piece was in the New York Post. 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.319 He was talking up Hillary Clinton for president in two 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:38.319 thousand six. Yeah, yeah, um yeah. He once was a Democrat. Um. 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.600 And you know in what he would when he started 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:43.760 arguing as his explanation for why he was such a 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:46.199 down or to Democrats for a long time was that 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:49.160 he uh lived in New York, which is heavily democratic, 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:50.520 and so you had to give it. That's that's not 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:54.160 the real, the real main reason. Um. He was one 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:57.800 of the only people who welcomed Bill Clinton to society 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.720 after the White House tenure. Ended right, Um, I think 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.320 invited him to join his clubs, and because some clubs 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:06.600 wouldn't accept him, because this was right after this, after 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:11.280 this was right after Monica Lewinsky h and so uh, 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:14.120 they were quite chummy. They were quite chummy. And and 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:16.880 Trump really likes proximity to power and he likes feeling 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:18.839 like somebody owes him a favor. I mean, those are 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.440 always the two things. And so he believed that Bill 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:24.600 Clinton owed him something, which is part of why he 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:27.920 got so angry when the Clintons were criticizing him. I know, 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:32.199 in two thousand eleven you reported seriously on his presidential ambitions, 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.440 but then I felt a great story that he was 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:38.640 launching a campaign in two thousand fifteen. Well, I mean 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:41.000 I would argue that, um, that might not have held 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:43.040 up as the best call, but it was certainly defensible 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:45.319 at the time because in two thousand eleven we did 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:48.000 pay a lot of attention to him. He did dominate, 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:50.199 you know, the air, and he sucked up all the 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.840 oxygen the way that he always does. And they didn't run, 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:54.360 and he announced that he wasn't running in the most 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:58.080 cynical way possible. During sweep sweek of The Apprentice after 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:04.440 running the most racially cynical early platform we had ever seen, 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:07.640 where he was effectively calling the first black president an 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:10.720 illegitimate based on nothing other than based on an Internet 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:15.520 rumor that Andrew Breitbart, who created the website Breitbart, denounced 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:18.679 Trump for in two thousand eleven. He thought birtherism was disgusting. 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:20.960 And it is amazing the degree to which Trump mainstranda. 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.200 In fact, he is really the granddaddy at the birth 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:26.720 or movement, isn't he. I remember seeing him talking about 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:30.040 it on the View and spreading that around and and 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:34.640 how did that take such a hold on the public's imagination, 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.680 Because it's crazy, It was funny. It started out as um. 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:40.960 It was it was a fringe issue. It was a 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.880 fringe issue that most conservatives wouldn't touch for a very 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:47.040 long time. And then he started talking about He talked 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:49.440 about it on Fox, He talked about it where, you know, wherever, 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:51.240 and he was making things up. You know, I have 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:55.079 these investigators and they can't you believe what they're finding. Um. 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:56.600 You know, people who worked with him at the time 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.800 said that there was no such thing um. And it 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:04.920 was so raw and strange and so norms breaking. I 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:06.920 hate to use the word that we have a phrase 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:08.679 that we have used a lot, and it's gotten quite 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:10.840 a workout in the last year and a half. But 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:16.240 it was it was effective. It was impossible to look away. Basically, 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:18.839 what is impossible to not cover? I think to me, though, 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:22.160 you guys, that is classic Donald Trump. Yes, you say 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:26.840 something enough, you know, whether it's Crooked Hillary or whatever, 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:29.800 that is a that is a page from his playbook. 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:32.480 You repeat it. It's like a monstra petition is a 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:36.880 huge part of it starts permeating your consciousness in a 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:39.560 way that you don't even understand. But what does it 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:41.880 say about it's absolutely true? What does it say about 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:45.040 the base of the Republican Party that Birtherism is really 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:49.200 what bonded Trump to those people? Says that it is 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:54.360 an aging, older, largely white basse um that had seen 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:56.160 You know, this is not the first time that we've 0:14:56.160 --> 0:15:00.680 seen ever in history, and certainly in in u s history, 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:03.600 of a small group of people, much more on the 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:06.400 far right than on the far left. Uh, but who 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:08.520 had a certain what was described by Housesetter as the 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:12.240 paranoid style in American politics. Right, others are taking what 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:16.600 you have, and Obama represented that in Trump. Um my 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:18.760 colleague Jonathan Martin, we were both the political at the time, 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:20.600 but this really well and a piece in two thousand 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:24.520 eleven that what the base saw Trump as was a 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:27.200 neon stand in for somebody who would take the fight 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:30.720 to Obama because the base didn't feel the party was 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:35.080 fighting this president hard enough, which clearly is has proven 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.040 otherwise in history. But that was the sentiment at the time. 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:40.160 Can we take a little can we take a little 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.000 turn just for a second momentarily to talk about Roy 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:48.000 kone because honestly, I think that people don't understand just 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.400 how deeply influenced he was by Roy Kuhne. Can you 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:55.520 explain quickly, Maggie, who Roy Cone was, the nature of 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:59.000 his relationship with Trump and what he taught the Donald 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.240 as we used to call him. Sure, So, I mean 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:04.200 Roy Cohen was the legendary John McCarthy fixer and lawyer, 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.320 you know, dirt peddler on his opponents. The whole playbook 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:11.920 was slimed the opposition, attack, attack, attack. Donald Trump and 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:15.440 Roger Stone, Trump's longest serving political advisor, on and off, 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:20.440 both shared Cone as a as a mentor. Michael Cruz 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:23.720 at Politico had a great piece on Trump and Cone 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:26.080 during the campaign where he unearthed this gem of a 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:29.680 quote from Trump talking about Roy Cohne, which was Trump said, 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:33.400 he brutalized, but he brutalized for you. And I think 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:37.480 that that's so succinctly sums up both what what Trump 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:39.840 believes people should be doing for him. But if you 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:41.280 think about the thing that we've always talked about with 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:44.240 the Clintons, especially Hillary Clinton, as they want people defending them, right, 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:46.840 we always talked about this and covering the Clinton's Trump 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:49.600 is that at times a gazillion you are supposed to 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:52.560 go out and absorb whole bullets, give up your family 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:56.800 for him. The professions of loyalty are and the need 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:00.240 for it are huge, um and Cone and body that 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:01.760 and Cone taught him that. And then at the end 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:04.399 of Cohn's life, when con Con who was a in 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.280 the closet gay man who had AIDS, when he was 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.960 dying of AIDS, according to Cone's assistant, Trump dropped him 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:13.720 Um and she believes he dropped him because of the 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:17.080 AIDS panic in the nineteen eighties. Trump does not like 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:19.400 talking about Roy Khne particularly. I think he spoke about 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:21.879 him a little bit to my colleagues Jonathan Muller and 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:24.679 Matt Flagenheimer during the campaign, but it's not one of 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:29.040 his favorite topics. But he has really, even though he 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:32.720 distanced himself, he's personified the tactics in the style I mean, 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:37.240 very much so. And it's uh. You know, a friend 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:39.920 of Trump's once said to me that, you know you've 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:43.040 got Trump's got two people on either shoulder, and one 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:45.000 is his father, Fred Trump, and the other is Roy 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:47.159 Kone and and one of them is whispering in his 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:49.040 ear at all times. Yeah. A friend of mine set 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:50.880 if he could go back in time, he'd kill baby 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:52.960 Hitler and tell Fred Trump to be a little nicer 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:55.440 to his kid. I think it. I think it would 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:59.440 have required a little more than just being a little nicer. Yeah. Yeah, anyway, 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:02.440 back to Maggy, Um, you joined the New York Times, 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:07.320 and there's been some criticism of you. Um that, even 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:11.080 amid all of these scoops. One colleague of yours, unnamed 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.639 of course, is quoted in Vanity Fair saying you've brought 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:18.280 a tabloid twitterified sensibility to the Times. How do you 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:22.360 react when you hear something like that. Um that it's 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:24.760 not true that I'm not the first person to get 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:28.480 hired from Politico to The Times. That. Um. And I'm 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:30.560 not even sure that was meant as an insult, frankly, 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.000 but UM, I think that the direction that The Times 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:35.800 has taken on politics is not attributable to any one person. 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:37.640 I think that we have an and on the White 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:40.320 House coverage. Uh. And in terms of Trump, we are 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.280 covering a tabloid president. So if you cover him as 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:46.240 a conventional president, you're actually going to mislead your readers 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.240 into thinking that he is a conventional president. He's not. 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.480 There are only so many ways to do something when 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:54.000 it is in the written form versus say a TV 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:58.320 interview or a live rally and a live television interview. UM, 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:06.880 I just don't agree with that assessment. We're gonna take 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:09.120 a quick break and we'll be right back with more 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:13.360 from the first in our Wonder Women's series, Maggie Haberman 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:24.560 of The New York Times. And now back to our 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:29.960 conversation with Maggie Haberman. Maggie talked about some of the 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:35.080 challenges in covering a precedent like this. I mean, it's 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.840 a it never ends it's literally it's like I feel 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:39.679 like I did when I had newborns. It's like a 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:42.359 long day. You know, when you have a newborn. You 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:44.159 sleep for two hours and you're up for three and 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:46.720 then you, um, you don't have time to take a shower. 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:49.640 You feel so nasty, have that like nasty green Vilora 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:52.679 robe On and Liker and like you know, and so 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:56.800 it's like, insteader the baby, it's your laptop. Um. I 0:19:56.960 --> 0:20:00.119 just cannot get away from that thing. Everybody, I think 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:02.000 one of the big challenges. And again I thought that 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:04.040 I had seen the zeno of this with the Clinton's, 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:06.679 but I really hadn't. Everybody has a really strong opinion 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:08.719 about what you're doing. Everyone is a really strong opinion 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:10.520 at you, at the reporter. Everyone is a really strong 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:13.159 opinion about how you're doing your job. People who do 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:16.639 not know anything about journalism or suddenly journalism experts, UM, 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:21.560 People who do not understand that it is not a 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:26.959 reporter's job to hold an impeachment trial, UM cannot do 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:28.440 the things that they would like them to do in 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:30.760 an interview. UM. I think that people are I think 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:33.800 that so I think a couple of things. I think 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:37.920 that there has been this psychic experience, collective psych experience 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:41.920 about this presidency. Um. And I think that that has 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:44.359 been for most people. It has not been for his 0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:47.720 most ardent supporters, who do not really believe that he 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:49.320 can do that much wrong. Although I do think that 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:51.520 if you went and and interviewed a lot of them 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:53.400 at this point, there are things they're going to be disappointed. 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:55.199 Whether they would vote against him, I think it's a 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:58.600 different issue. But um, for other people, we've never really 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:00.560 seen anything like this. We've never seen thinking about something 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:02.439 you said at the very beginning about how he's divided 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:04.320 the country, and the country is pretty divided before he 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:06.600