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Speaker 1: Hi, Brian, Hi Katie, and hello listeners. Brian. This week

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Speaker 1: marks one year since Donald Trump's inauguration as President of

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Speaker 1: these United States. Don't happy Trump adversary, Katie, thank you

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Speaker 1: very much. It's only been a year, it is. It

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Speaker 1: certainly does feel a little longer than a year, and

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Speaker 1: a lot has happened in the past twelve months. To

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Speaker 1: mark the occasion, we sat down with Maggie Haberman, someone

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Speaker 1: who has had a front row seat for much of

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Speaker 1: the Trump administration. This, by the way, is the first

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Speaker 1: in a series of podcasts we're doing that we're calling

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Speaker 1: wonder Women. We're going to be interviewing a bunch of

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Speaker 1: female powerhouses and the weeks to come. We thought it

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Speaker 1: was sort of something in the air about girl power

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Speaker 1: right now and about women in general. And Maggie definitely

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Speaker 1: qualifies as a wonder woman Brian, for sure. I mean,

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Speaker 1: she arguably knows Donald Trump more and better than any

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Speaker 1: other reporter covering him. She started writing about him in

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Speaker 1: two thousand six for the tabloids here in New York

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Speaker 1: and through Politico and The New York Times. She's always

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Speaker 1: had Trump in her sight. She's a top White House

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Speaker 1: correspondent for the New York Times, as many of you know,

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Speaker 1: and she appears on CNN regularly as a political analyst,

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Speaker 1: and over the past year she's really gotten scoop after

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Speaker 1: scoop on the Trump administration, and in fact was doing

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Speaker 1: some reporting on her phone as we were interviewing her.

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Speaker 1: That's right, she was texting almost the entire time. She's

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Speaker 1: known as a huge multitasker. I think The New Yorker

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Speaker 1: described her as a humming bird, effortlessly doing what she

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Speaker 1: needs to do, which is everything at once. So do

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Speaker 1: you remember the story, Katie about President Trump watching TV

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Speaker 1: in his bathrobe with news that Trump told Russian officials

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Speaker 1: he fired FBI director James Kummy because he was quote crazy,

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Speaker 1: a real nut job. I certainly do, Brian, Well, Maggie

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Speaker 1: was behind both of those stories. In our conversation, we

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Speaker 1: talked with Maggie about her first job in journalism, if

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Speaker 1: anything about the Trump presidency has surprised her, and the

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Speaker 1: challenges of covering this White House both professionally and personally.

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Speaker 1: You were the original, really busy woman, So I feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm only sort of following in your path. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think you have me be You've been called a

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Speaker 1: Trump whisper a West wing beat colossus and also maybe

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Speaker 1: the greatest political reporter working today. Mozele on that, Maggie,

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Speaker 1: of course, the president calls you something different altogether on occasion,

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Speaker 1: a purveyor of fake news at the failing New York

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Speaker 1: Times one year in. How is Donald Trump been similar

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Speaker 1: to or different from your expectations? Uh? The day he

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Speaker 1: was sworn in, Not a single thing that has happened

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Speaker 1: has surprised me. Literally, not a single thing that has happened.

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Speaker 1: The only thing that that surprised me, Uh, after I

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Speaker 1: just said not a single thing, I was the only

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Speaker 1: quasi single thing is And thank you for all the

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Speaker 1: very kind words, but um, at least half of them

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Speaker 1: are not true. Um, was that he fired call me

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Speaker 1: because I thought if he was going to do what

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Speaker 1: he would have done it on the first day. Um.

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Speaker 1: But this has played out, if not in the precise

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Speaker 1: ways in which I would have imagined, um, along the

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Speaker 1: same contours and along the same lines. Um. He is

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Speaker 1: who he is. He has not changed. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think one of the one of the conversations that I

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Speaker 1: find sort of head scratching right now is this idea

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Speaker 1: that um, which I think is promulgated, primarily by Michael

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Speaker 1: Wolf's book, that there's some kind of a deterioration. He's

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Speaker 1: the same person who I was interviewing six years ago. Uh.

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Speaker 1: If people wanted to believe during the campaign that there

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Speaker 1: was a strategy, that's fine, But there wasn't a strategy.

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Speaker 1: He did things because it felt good to him, or

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Speaker 1: because he liked it, or because it was fun. He

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Speaker 1: you know, his axios had a story that he's now

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Speaker 1: not getting into the to the west wing until eleven

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Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. That's about him keeping with what

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Speaker 1: he did a Trump Tower. So I ask you, Maggie,

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Speaker 1: did he run his company Trump Enterprises or whatever it's

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Speaker 1: called organization Trump org, dot com organization may be generous,

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Speaker 1: did he run it the same way that he's running

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Speaker 1: the White House? Because it makes you wonder, how was

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Speaker 1: he ever able to be moderately successful? If so? So,

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Speaker 1: I think the thing that people forget about him is

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Speaker 1: that A he began his business with UM a hefty

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Speaker 1: loan from his father. So this self made thing is

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Speaker 1: not quite true. UM he was in real estate. He

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Speaker 1: was never seen as one of the more successful developers around.

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Speaker 1: He had four bankruptcies, not personal bankruptcies, but his businesses

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Speaker 1: had had problems. Um. And then he went after the bankruptcies,

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Speaker 1: he went into the licensing business, and he went into

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Speaker 1: reality television. Um. His business was essentially a mom and

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Speaker 1: pop shop. It was not a fortune company, was not

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Speaker 1: anything close to that. And he ran it by instantly

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Speaker 1: making people play for his affections. And he despite you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of constantly picking fights for interpersonal confrontation, he really

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Speaker 1: tries to avoid it. Um. You know. For instance, when

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Speaker 1: his campaign manager, Korey Lewandowski was fired in six it

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Speaker 1: was Don Jr. And Trump's lawyer Michael Cohen who did it.

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Speaker 1: It was not Trump himself, and Trump in fact wanted

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Speaker 1: Corey to know what a great guy he still thought

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Speaker 1: he was. So yeah, this all is exactly who he

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Speaker 1: was before. So he thrives in chaos. He creates chaos,

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Speaker 1: and then he responds to the chaos he creates. It's

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Speaker 1: all the cyclical feedback loop that you know, we're all

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Speaker 1: on with him now and his approval writing is in

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Speaker 1: the thirties and he seems to have polarized the country

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Speaker 1: more than any president I can really recall. But you know,

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Speaker 1: him really well, at this point, what do you think

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Speaker 1: are the biggest misconceptions about him among both his supporters

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Speaker 1: and his detractors. That's an excellent question. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think that, Um, I think the most common misperception, no

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Speaker 1: matter what side of the aisle you're on, in terms

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Speaker 1: of him, is that there's a strategy at play, that

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Speaker 1: he's doing it, that he has some some guidance, master plan.

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Speaker 1: And then the second um, and this is really I

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Speaker 1: think um been interesting for Republicans and Democrats to deal with,

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Speaker 1: is that he's got an ideology. There is no ideology.

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Speaker 1: He's got a handful of it, like impulses, um, that

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Speaker 1: have always animated him. But he is perfectly comfortable being

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Speaker 1: inconsistent on policy. He is perfectly comfortable taking two conflicting positions.

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Speaker 1: Consistency is not a hop goblin that gets to him particularly.

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Speaker 1: I think those are the main misconceptions about him. I

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Speaker 1: also think that the I mean one that I think

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Speaker 1: it's really hard for people to grasp again whether you

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Speaker 1: like him or don't like him, but really for people

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Speaker 1: who don't like him, is that the storminess of his personality,

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Speaker 1: which clearly is pronounced and frequent, is not incessant. It's

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Speaker 1: sort of rhythmic. It's whether it comes in and then

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Speaker 1: it blows storm blows out, comes in and then it

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Speaker 1: blows out. And we wrote about this, Glen Thrush and

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Speaker 1: Peter Baker and I did in December in a piece

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Speaker 1: about how he functions as president. And what can be

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Speaker 1: very darring for people who didn't know him for a

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Speaker 1: long time is that he can scream at you and

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Speaker 1: then be making small talk with you a few minutes later,

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Speaker 1: because he's vinted, he's gotten an out of his system,

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't occur to him how you might be

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Speaker 1: receiving it, and he doesn't really care. The only thing

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Speaker 1: that is predictable about him is that he is unpredictable

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Speaker 1: and his reactions can be original. So you've known Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump a long time because he would tell you I

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Speaker 1: hardly know him well. The facts suggests otherwise. But you

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Speaker 1: were both a big part of the New York tabloid world.

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Speaker 1: You as a trigger part of well you you wrote

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Speaker 1: about him in the New York Posts and Daily News

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Speaker 1: for many years. Um and you come from a media family.

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Speaker 1: Your your dad as a Pulitzer Prize winning New York

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Speaker 1: Times reporter your mom's a big pr person. Um, so

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Speaker 1: we'll just go back a little bit before we continue

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Speaker 1: talking about Trump today. Obsessive lee, which is all anyone Maggie. God,

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Speaker 1: you must get so tired of it. Thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for doing it with us. You must be like,

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Speaker 1: So let's just take a little interlude and talk about Maggie. Yes,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about you. Okay, you said you never wanted

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Speaker 1: to be a reporter. How did that happen? I couldn't

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Speaker 1: get a job working in a magazine out of college

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Speaker 1: where I had studied fiction writing and child child psychology

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Speaker 1: and turned out to be pretty relevant to your job today.

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Speaker 1: Deal in fiction, but you do deal with children. I

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Speaker 1: have three children, Um I now and some would argue

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Speaker 1: for anyway. Anyway, I couldn't get a job, and so

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Speaker 1: uh I got hired as a clerk at the new Post,

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Speaker 1: which was not a glamorous job. But it was really

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Speaker 1: like fitching coffee, fitching facts is. But I loved the

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Speaker 1: way the newsroom was. I loved the rhythm of it.

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Speaker 1: I love the place and what they would do. I

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Speaker 1: think they still do it there is they would, um,

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Speaker 1: they would send reporter copy kids out. That's what we

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Speaker 1: were called copy kids. Um out on assignment, you know,

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Speaker 1: go to a fire or go let stick out of hospital,

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Speaker 1: go whatever. Um. The height was getting assigned a day,

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Speaker 1: so you know, you're the Tuesday copy kid who goes

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Speaker 1: out and goes out an assignment. And I got myself

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Speaker 1: in the rotation and I really loved it. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: that was that was it. But it was not what

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Speaker 1: I planned for. What was it about reporting that really

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Speaker 1: kind of floated your boat? Have you seen a movie

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Speaker 1: The Paper, The Michael Paton movie. I mean that was

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Speaker 1: the New York Post in the nineties. It was it

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Speaker 1: was interesting, it was colorful. It was the adrenaline rush

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Speaker 1: of a scoop of doing it well. And they're talking

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Speaker 1: about being in a newsroom that I think it's so fun.

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Speaker 1: I agree, it's just fun. It is fun. And I

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Speaker 1: mean the New York Post was the most pure fun

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Speaker 1: job I ever had. Um and uh. And that that

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Speaker 1: New York Post doesn't exist anymore. That New York Post

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Speaker 1: does not exist in quite some time. But what's happened

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Speaker 1: in the New York Post. There were editor changes and

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Speaker 1: just sort of, um, it's just a different place now. Um.

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Speaker 1: But what if you always feel comfort ble with like

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Speaker 1: you know, headless body founded topless bar and stuff. I

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Speaker 1: didn't have a problem. I mean I was also a bartender,

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Speaker 1: so like I might be the wrong the wrong target

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Speaker 1: audience for that, But it wasn't a topless bar. It

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Speaker 1: was not it was right, it wasn't well but so

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Speaker 1: I mean again, so like, what's Donald Trump's favorite New

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Speaker 1: York Post headline? It was the one supposedly quoting Marlin

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Speaker 1: Maples sang best sex I ever had. It was No,

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Speaker 1: he didn't call it. He didn't know what happened. Was

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Speaker 1: so Steve Cuzo, who is UM, does real estate coverage

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Speaker 1: and I think some business are there's some business or

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Speaker 1: page six coverage for the for the Post wrote a

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Speaker 1: book called It's Alive, and it was all about how

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Speaker 1: the Post almost died until Murdoch bought it back in

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Speaker 1: ninety three. And in the book he talks about how

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Speaker 1: the reporter Bill Hoffman, who now works for Chris Ready

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Speaker 1: at news Max Um and Bill Hofman said across from

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Speaker 1: me for years because I was a dictationist and that

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Speaker 1: was the way the newsroom was laid out. But Bill

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Speaker 1: got a friend of Marla Maples on the phone and

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Speaker 1: he said, you know, I thought the sex was pretty good, right,

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Speaker 1: and the woman was like yeah, and he's like best

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Speaker 1: she ever had, right, And the woman's like, I guess.

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Speaker 1: And that's how that headline came to base. So I

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Speaker 1: was going to say, such great and I feel so

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Speaker 1: much better in the New York Post. Hey, I love

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Speaker 1: the ear Post. You're not gonna hear me say a

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Speaker 1: bad word about it, but um, at least not right here.

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Speaker 1: But but but that's the world that Trump comes from, too, right,

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Speaker 1: feels true, is mostly true. I like the way that reads.

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Speaker 1: And so And the first time, in fact, you quoted

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump and a piece was in the New York Post.

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Speaker 1: He was talking up Hillary Clinton for president in two

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Speaker 1: thousand six. Yeah, yeah, um yeah. He once was a Democrat. Um.

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Speaker 1: And you know in what he would when he started

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Speaker 1: arguing as his explanation for why he was such a

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Speaker 1: down or to Democrats for a long time was that

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Speaker 1: he uh lived in New York, which is heavily democratic,

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Speaker 1: and so you had to give it. That's that's not

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Speaker 1: the real, the real main reason. Um. He was one

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Speaker 1: of the only people who welcomed Bill Clinton to society

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Speaker 1: after the White House tenure. Ended right, Um, I think

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Speaker 1: invited him to join his clubs, and because some clubs

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Speaker 1: wouldn't accept him, because this was right after this, after

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Speaker 1: this was right after Monica Lewinsky h and so uh,

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Speaker 1: they were quite chummy. They were quite chummy. And and

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Speaker 1: Trump really likes proximity to power and he likes feeling

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Speaker 1: like somebody owes him a favor. I mean, those are

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Speaker 1: always the two things. And so he believed that Bill

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Speaker 1: Clinton owed him something, which is part of why he

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Speaker 1: got so angry when the Clintons were criticizing him. I know,

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Speaker 1: in two thousand eleven you reported seriously on his presidential ambitions,

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Speaker 1: but then I felt a great story that he was

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Speaker 1: launching a campaign in two thousand fifteen. Well, I mean

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Speaker 1: I would argue that, um, that might not have held

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Speaker 1: up as the best call, but it was certainly defensible

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Speaker 1: at the time because in two thousand eleven we did

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Speaker 1: pay a lot of attention to him. He did dominate,

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Speaker 1: you know, the air, and he sucked up all the

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Speaker 1: oxygen the way that he always does. And they didn't run,

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Speaker 1: and he announced that he wasn't running in the most

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Speaker 1: cynical way possible. During sweep sweek of The Apprentice after

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Speaker 1: running the most racially cynical early platform we had ever seen,

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Speaker 1: where he was effectively calling the first black president an

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Speaker 1: illegitimate based on nothing other than based on an Internet

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Speaker 1: rumor that Andrew Breitbart, who created the website Breitbart, denounced

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Speaker 1: Trump for in two thousand eleven. He thought birtherism was disgusting.

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Speaker 1: And it is amazing the degree to which Trump mainstranda.

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Speaker 1: In fact, he is really the granddaddy at the birth

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Speaker 1: or movement, isn't he. I remember seeing him talking about

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Speaker 1: it on the View and spreading that around and and

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Speaker 1: how did that take such a hold on the public's imagination,

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Speaker 1: Because it's crazy, It was funny. It started out as um.

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Speaker 1: It was it was a fringe issue. It was a

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Speaker 1: fringe issue that most conservatives wouldn't touch for a very

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Speaker 1: long time. And then he started talking about He talked

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Speaker 1: about it on Fox, He talked about it where, you know, wherever,

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Speaker 1: and he was making things up. You know, I have

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Speaker 1: these investigators and they can't you believe what they're finding. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, people who worked with him at the time

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Speaker 1: said that there was no such thing um. And it

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Speaker 1: was so raw and strange and so norms breaking. I

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Speaker 1: hate to use the word that we have a phrase

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Speaker 1: that we have used a lot, and it's gotten quite

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Speaker 1: a workout in the last year and a half. But

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Speaker 1: it was it was effective. It was impossible to look away. Basically,

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Speaker 1: what is impossible to not cover? I think to me, though,

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Speaker 1: you guys, that is classic Donald Trump. Yes, you say

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Speaker 1: something enough, you know, whether it's Crooked Hillary or whatever,

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Speaker 1: that is a that is a page from his playbook.

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Speaker 1: You repeat it. It's like a monstra petition is a

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Speaker 1: huge part of it starts permeating your consciousness in a

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Speaker 1: way that you don't even understand. But what does it

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Speaker 1: say about it's absolutely true? What does it say about

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Speaker 1: the base of the Republican Party that Birtherism is really

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Speaker 1: what bonded Trump to those people? Says that it is

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Speaker 1: an aging, older, largely white basse um that had seen

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Speaker 1: You know, this is not the first time that we've

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Speaker 1: seen ever in history, and certainly in in u s history,

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Speaker 1: of a small group of people, much more on the

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Speaker 1: far right than on the far left. Uh, but who

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Speaker 1: had a certain what was described by Housesetter as the

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Speaker 1: paranoid style in American politics. Right, others are taking what

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Speaker 1: you have, and Obama represented that in Trump. Um my

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Speaker 1: colleague Jonathan Martin, we were both the political at the time,

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Speaker 1: but this really well and a piece in two thousand

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Speaker 1: eleven that what the base saw Trump as was a

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Speaker 1: neon stand in for somebody who would take the fight

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Speaker 1: to Obama because the base didn't feel the party was

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Speaker 1: fighting this president hard enough, which clearly is has proven

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Speaker 1: otherwise in history. But that was the sentiment at the time.

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Speaker 1: Can we take a little can we take a little

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Speaker 1: turn just for a second momentarily to talk about Roy

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Speaker 1: kone because honestly, I think that people don't understand just

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Speaker 1: how deeply influenced he was by Roy Kuhne. Can you

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Speaker 1: explain quickly, Maggie, who Roy Cone was, the nature of

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Speaker 1: his relationship with Trump and what he taught the Donald

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Speaker 1: as we used to call him. Sure, So, I mean

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Speaker 1: Roy Cohen was the legendary John McCarthy fixer and lawyer,

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Speaker 1: you know, dirt peddler on his opponents. The whole playbook

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Speaker 1: was slimed the opposition, attack, attack, attack. Donald Trump and

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Speaker 1: Roger Stone, Trump's longest serving political advisor, on and off,

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Speaker 1: both shared Cone as a as a mentor. Michael Cruz

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Speaker 1: at Politico had a great piece on Trump and Cone

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Speaker 1: during the campaign where he unearthed this gem of a

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Speaker 1: quote from Trump talking about Roy Cohne, which was Trump said,

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Speaker 1: he brutalized, but he brutalized for you. And I think

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Speaker 1: that that's so succinctly sums up both what what Trump

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Speaker 1: believes people should be doing for him. But if you

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Speaker 1: think about the thing that we've always talked about with

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Speaker 1: the Clintons, especially Hillary Clinton, as they want people defending them, right,

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Speaker 1: we always talked about this and covering the Clinton's Trump

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Speaker 1: is that at times a gazillion you are supposed to

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Speaker 1: go out and absorb whole bullets, give up your family

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Speaker 1: for him. The professions of loyalty are and the need

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Speaker 1: for it are huge, um and Cone and body that

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Speaker 1: and Cone taught him that. And then at the end

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Speaker 1: of Cohn's life, when con Con who was a in

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Speaker 1: the closet gay man who had AIDS, when he was

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Speaker 1: dying of AIDS, according to Cone's assistant, Trump dropped him

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Speaker 1: Um and she believes he dropped him because of the

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Speaker 1: AIDS panic in the nineteen eighties. Trump does not like

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Speaker 1: talking about Roy Khne particularly. I think he spoke about

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Speaker 1: him a little bit to my colleagues Jonathan Muller and

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Speaker 1: Matt Flagenheimer during the campaign, but it's not one of

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Speaker 1: his favorite topics. But he has really, even though he

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Speaker 1: distanced himself, he's personified the tactics in the style I mean,

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Speaker 1: very much so. And it's uh. You know, a friend

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Speaker 1: of Trump's once said to me that, you know you've

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Speaker 1: got Trump's got two people on either shoulder, and one

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Speaker 1: is his father, Fred Trump, and the other is Roy

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Speaker 1: Kone and and one of them is whispering in his

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Speaker 1: ear at all times. Yeah. A friend of mine set

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Speaker 1: if he could go back in time, he'd kill baby

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Speaker 1: Hitler and tell Fred Trump to be a little nicer

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Speaker 1: to his kid. I think it. I think it would

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Speaker 1: have required a little more than just being a little nicer. Yeah. Yeah, anyway,

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Speaker 1: back to Maggy, Um, you joined the New York Times,

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Speaker 1: and there's been some criticism of you. Um that, even

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Speaker 1: amid all of these scoops. One colleague of yours, unnamed

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Speaker 1: of course, is quoted in Vanity Fair saying you've brought

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Speaker 1: a tabloid twitterified sensibility to the Times. How do you

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Speaker 1: react when you hear something like that. Um that it's

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Speaker 1: not true that I'm not the first person to get

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Speaker 1: hired from Politico to The Times. That. Um. And I'm

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Speaker 1: not even sure that was meant as an insult, frankly,

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Speaker 1: but UM, I think that the direction that The Times

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Speaker 1: has taken on politics is not attributable to any one person.

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Speaker 1: I think that we have an and on the White

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Speaker 1: House coverage. Uh. And in terms of Trump, we are

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Speaker 1: covering a tabloid president. So if you cover him as

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Speaker 1: a conventional president, you're actually going to mislead your readers

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Speaker 1: into thinking that he is a conventional president. He's not.

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Speaker 1: There are only so many ways to do something when

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Speaker 1: it is in the written form versus say a TV

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Speaker 1: interview or a live rally and a live television interview. UM,

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Speaker 1: I just don't agree with that assessment. We're gonna take

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Speaker 1: a quick break and we'll be right back with more

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Speaker 1: from the first in our Wonder Women's series, Maggie Haberman

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Speaker 1: of The New York Times. And now back to our

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Speaker 1: conversation with Maggie Haberman. Maggie talked about some of the

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Speaker 1: challenges in covering a precedent like this. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: a it never ends it's literally it's like I feel

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Speaker 1: like I did when I had newborns. It's like a

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Speaker 1: long day. You know, when you have a newborn. You

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Speaker 1: sleep for two hours and you're up for three and

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Speaker 1: then you, um, you don't have time to take a shower.

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Speaker 1: You feel so nasty, have that like nasty green Vilora

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Speaker 1: robe On and Liker and like you know, and so

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Speaker 1: it's like, insteader the baby, it's your laptop. Um. I

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Speaker 1: just cannot get away from that thing. Everybody, I think

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Speaker 1: one of the big challenges. And again I thought that

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Speaker 1: I had seen the zeno of this with the Clinton's,

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Speaker 1: but I really hadn't. Everybody has a really strong opinion

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Speaker 1: about what you're doing. Everyone is a really strong opinion

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Speaker 1: at you, at the reporter. Everyone is a really strong

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Speaker 1: opinion about how you're doing your job. People who do

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Speaker 1: not know anything about journalism or suddenly journalism experts, UM,

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Speaker 1: People who do not understand that it is not a

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Speaker 1: reporter's job to hold an impeachment trial, UM cannot do

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Speaker 1: the things that they would like them to do in

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Speaker 1: an interview. UM. I think that people are I think

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Speaker 1: that so I think a couple of things. I think

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Speaker 1: that there has been this psychic experience, collective psych experience

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Speaker 1: about this presidency. Um. And I think that that has

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Speaker 1: been for most people. It has not been for his

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Speaker 1: most ardent supporters, who do not really believe that he

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Speaker 1: can do that much wrong. Although I do think that

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Speaker 1: if you went and and interviewed a lot of them

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Speaker 1: at this point, there are things they're going to be disappointed.

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Speaker 1: Whether they would vote against him, I think it's a

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Speaker 1: different issue. But um, for other people, we've never really

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Speaker 1: seen anything like this. We've never seen thinking about something

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Speaker 1: you said at the very beginning about how he's divided

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Speaker 1: the country, and the country is pretty divided before he

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Speaker 1: came in. What he has done that is different is

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Speaker 1: he's done zero to reach out to people who weren't

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Speaker 1: with him already, and that we've never seen before. We

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Speaker 1: have never seen somebody who has come in and said

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Speaker 1: the rest of you, you know what, the hairs, the losers.

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Speaker 1: That is what he does. Um. Well, Ron Brownston wrote,

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Speaker 1: I thought this was very savvy. The tax plan was

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Speaker 1: not about redistributing so much as retribution. It was it

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Speaker 1: was about punishing the blue state. It was a weaponized

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Speaker 1: tax bill in a way that I don't think that

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Speaker 1: as a as a friend of mine put in, I

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Speaker 1: don't think that we have seen anything in front of

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Speaker 1: mine who's a Republican. I don't think that we have

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Speaker 1: seen anything like that in quite some time. But Maggie

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Speaker 1: goes beyond not reaching out to people who weren't it's

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Speaker 1: it's but but even more than that, I think he

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Speaker 1: you know, what, did you use the norm norm shuttering,

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Speaker 1: norm shattering? Uh, and the lack of decorum and any

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Speaker 1: kind of attempt to be civil and to have manner.

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Speaker 1: Now he does. He's not interested in he is not

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Speaker 1: interested in niceties, he's not interested in in norms as

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Speaker 1: we have always defined them. And he's Um, everything is

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Speaker 1: an attack. If he doesn't like you, if you do

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Speaker 1: anything that crosses he will. He will call you a

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Speaker 1: great person in one breath and then the next breath

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Speaker 1: call you the worst person in the world, which is

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00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 1: he does the reporters as well, and which is both

428
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,480
Speaker 1: personally disorienting and then I think collectively disorienting. UM. I

429
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 1: think that initially people wanted to believe that reporters were

430
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 1: hero People who didn't like Trump thought reporters were heroes. UM,

431
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 1: because people sort of want a hero at the moment,

432
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,200
Speaker 1: and then reporters are reporters. Reporters, they have a job.

433
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 1: And now I think people have gotten frustrated that reporters

434
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 1: can't do more. But the more that they want done

435
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 1: can be done by Congress. It's not the job of

436
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 1: journalists to prosecute the president. And what everybody knows about

437
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 1: this presidency and the Russia investigation and so forth, it's

438
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 1: all from reporters. I think reporter shif done a really

439
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 1: good job collectively covering this president under very difficult circumstances.

440
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 1: I agree with that. It's sort of your We're grateful honestly, Um,

441
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,199
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not reporting on the president on a

442
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 1: daily basis, but for everyone who does it to say

443
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: it's disorienting must be a massive understatement. It is. It's

444
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 1: just it's a difficult. Um, it's a difficult thing to do.

445
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: And where do you draw the line between news analysis

446
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 1: and commentary. So, for instance, we just interviewed Joe and

447
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: Mika on our last podcast, and their criticism now is

448
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 1: that reporters they think have gone too far in the

449
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 1: anti Trump direction, that they're over their skish. Well, he

450
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: didn't give specific I think they said even they were

451
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 1: a little over their skis, you know, sort of media

452
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,400
Speaker 1: writ large and I think that included themselves. I mean,

453
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: I was going to say they've called the president mentally unstable.

454
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,639
Speaker 1: I don't understand who they think has gone further than

455
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,719
Speaker 1: what I think. They don't view themselves of a subjective reporters,

456
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 1: and I think the evidence probably bears that out. But

457
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: when you think about the sort of the quote mainstream media,

458
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: New York Times, Washington Post, etcetera, do you think that

459
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 1: the balance has been struck about right or do you

460
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: think there's too much kind of reporters masquerading his calumnists

461
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: on Twitter? Um? I think Twitter is a huge problem

462
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: in general. It certainly is a problem for me and

463
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: a challenge for me. You tweet a hundred and forty

464
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 1: times a day, according to the Columbia Journalism Review. Is

465
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: that not true? I think I did. Then I think

466
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 1: I've stopped a little bit. But mean, it's a it's toxic,

467
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: it's toxic, it's terrible. I also feel like it feeds

468
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 1: the echo chamber because I feel like reporters tweet for

469
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: other reporters to be cute and clever for other reporters

470
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: and they're not really serving the public, They're serving their industry.

471
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: I wonder if Twitter would still be in business, we're

472
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 1: not for Donald Trump and reporters, it would be, but

473
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 1: I don't think that it would be anywhere near as

474
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 1: relevant as it is now, and I don't think it

475
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 1: would be as much of a cesspool. It's it's just

476
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 1: it's just it's toxic and so um, and people assume

477
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 1: the worst of everything they're reading. Um. I do think

478
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: Twitter is a danger for reporters, myself included. UM, I

479
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 1: do not resent myself in that. But have you thought

480
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: about not tweeting? Yeah? And then I tweet, So I've

481
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 1: thought about it. And then do you think more about

482
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: what you tweet now? Yes? I do. And what about

483
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: a policy at the New York Times? There was it

484
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 1: wasn't there a new policy? There was the Post or

485
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 1: New York Times. The Times has The Times has um

486
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: social media guidelines, and so these social media guidelines that

487
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: have been instituted by The Times are relatively new. Yeah,

488
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 1: it's in the last couple of months. I'm quoted in

489
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 1: the in the guidelines. I'm just sort of like, I mean,

490
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: I think that the problem is is like the number

491
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 1: The number of tweets that I compose and then delete

492
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: are a lot, either because it will end up I

493
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: think people will misread it, or because it's just what

494
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 1: I want to say can't be said in that many characters,

495
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: even to eighty um, or because it's just not worth it,

496
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: or because it doesn't always need to be said right then.

497
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: The mistake that I made recently was defending myself on

498
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: some criticism and like, don't go down. It's just not

499
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 1: it's just about right. It's just it's it's it's you're

500
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 1: through the looking last ones. You do that, it's a

501
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: bad idea. So I didn't, so I've stopped. But um,

502
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: but I do think that Twitter allows for a tone

503
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 1: that straight news reporting does not, and I think that's

504
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 1: I think that's dangerous. But I think the tone of

505
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: Trump coverage generally is over the top that I do

506
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: agree with them on. But I also think that, um,

507
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: I think they've contributed to it. So I'm sorry, Brian,

508
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: go ahead. I was gonna, yeah, go ahead, Okay, you

509
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: brought you brought up this is fun. I know you

510
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: brought up. You brought up Maggie. Trump's instability, or at

511
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: least the factor and his irrationality. Joe and Meek, as

512
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: you mentioned, called Donald Trump mentally unstable and frequently. Pete Winner,

513
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: a longtime Republican strategists who worked for the last three

514
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: Republican presidents, said Mr Trump's recent twitter storm slash interviews

515
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 1: are more evidence we've been watching an American president psychologically,

516
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: emotionally and cognitively decompose. That sounds very right. I mean,

517
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: it's it's unflattering. It's also diagnosing from the couch. I

518
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: think that my issue with this is that these same

519
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: people and I and I respect Petee are a lot

520
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: so I don't want to sound like I'm not um,

521
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 1: but they've been saying that he was cognitively declining since

522
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 1: the campaign. So you tell me where the bottom is

523
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: and what we're hitting. I've been interviewing this man since

524
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven on a pretty consistent basis, uh, year

525
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: to year. He's the same person I've been talking to

526
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: you this whole time, and you don't see any evidence

527
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 1: of it. I see evidence of somebody who is in

528
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: an enormously stressful situation and a job that I do

529
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: not think he loves and probably brings out the worst

530
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: in him. I think that certain qualities get exacerbated. But

531
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: do you think the president is mentally fit to govern?

532
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: I don't know what that means. I don't know. In

533
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: other words, like I hear the words coming out of

534
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: your mouth, I understand the sentence. But I'm not a psychiatrist,

535
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: and I do not think that reporters diagnosing people is

536
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: a good idea. You know, his state of mind. Let

537
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: me just try to phrase this in a different way.

538
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: And I know you don't want to reach a sort

539
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: of an opinion. I'm not going to reach that. Yeah,

540
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna answer that question. What I am going

541
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 1: to say is that I have I have covered his asiveness.

542
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,719
Speaker 1: I have covered in detail the types of things that

543
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: he bores in on times of stress, his perseveration over slights, um,

544
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: his self absorption, and on and on. So I think

545
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: that if people can't decide for them, so I mean,

546
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: this is the thing that I find a little drawing,

547
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: is the degree to which everybody needs to have some

548
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: kind of you know, U s d a stamp unfit, like,

549
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: look at what's in front of you and decide what

550
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: you think. Um, But none of us is a psychiatrist,

551
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: and I don't think that we have been putting a

552
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: gloss any of us on his moods or how he

553
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: deals with things. But doesn't the amendment kind of require

554
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: some kind of stamp. Well, that's in Congress again, and

555
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: that's the that's thee and that's the cabinet. I was

556
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: going to say, and that's the cabinet, but that's not

557
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: the that's not reporters tell us about a day in

558
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: the life of Donald Trump, Maggie, because you spend a

559
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: lot of time following his every move. Does he eat

560
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: as many uh and fish of filet o fish as

561
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: my mom used to call them, and drink as many

562
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: diet cokes as we've been told? And as many diet cokeses?

563
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: How many? A dozen? It's a it's a dozen a day.

564
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: That is just insane, Maggie. He's not a healthy eater

565
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: and he never has beend tell us about his eating habits,

566
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: is drinking habits, is sleeping habits, and his TV habits.

567
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: He doesn't sleep very much. He watches anywhere between four

568
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: and eight to ten hours of TV a day, and

569
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: the TV habits have been increasing, I'm told by several

570
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: White White House staff, especially since he got back from

571
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: our lago on the holiday break. He drinks about a

572
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: dozen diet cooks a day. He loves to eat McDonald's

573
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: Kentucky Fried Chicken, Um, burger king Um. These are his

574
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 1: favorite meal. Let's just go to McDonald's. But I'm not

575
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: sure the answer. There's one that he sent Keeach Keith

576
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: Schiller to when Keith was still in the White Now

577
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: to go to McDonald's. Item o his item God, I

578
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: think it was a big math, but I don't remember. Honestly,

579
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: I'm guessing he was fattening though. I'm just gonna go

580
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: with that. But it's not the grilled chickens. It's not

581
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: the it's not the healthy items. But the report that

582
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: he doesn't get into the Oval office until eleven in

583
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,479
Speaker 1: the morning, that's true. That's true. And that's basically how

584
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: he conducted himself a Trump Tower, like wouldn't roll in

585
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: until about ten or eleven. Now was this always the

586
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,959
Speaker 1: case or is this more recent? It's gotten it's gotten

587
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: more like that in the last decade or so. So

588
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: he watches TV in his bathroom. Basically he watches TV. Um.

589
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: Remember he doesn't own a bathroom. Didn't you read that?

590
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: And I did? Um, that is true, and and he was, Um,

591
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: what do you think of Michael Wolfs book? I'm curious

592
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: because they say he doesn't read, he is semi literate,

593
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: he doesn't prepare, he knows almost nothing about policy or politics.

594
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: He's extremely moody, thin skin. Um does this sound right? Well,

595
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: it's what I've been reporting for two years. Yeah, it

596
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: sounds right. I just couldn't help. But wonder how he

597
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: got that much access? Um, Steve Bannon walked him in,

598
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: and um, some folks in the comm shop decided to

599
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: play some level of ball with him, not fully, but enough.

600
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: He talked to Donald Trump for three hours. I think

601
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: an aggregate on three of three hours short. Three hours

602
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: is not out of time. So what I think an

603
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: hour and a half of that was the interview he

604
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: did in Beverly Hill. I do not think that they

605
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: spent much time together since Trump spent on the White

606
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: House now, but he had written some pretty pro Trump columns.

607
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: He spent years criticizing all of the Trump covering media,

608
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: and he spent the first year of the White House,

609
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: UH and the transition saying that all of our coverage

610
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: that things were a mess was wrong. Um, that we

611
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: were all too negative about Trump. UM. I think he

612
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: described my beat as the barrant presidency of Donald Trump

613
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: UM in a very derisive way. So I don't understand

614
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: how he makes that comport with his book if he

615
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: considers that a negative, because his entire book is that

616
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: there is something very like Donald Trump changed. Well, he

617
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: didn't say he didn't know, he didn't change. What changed

618
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: is that Wolfe Michael Wolfe wanted to get access to Trump,

619
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: and so he did so by critic which he would

620
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: not be the first person to do so. Lots of

621
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: reporters over the years have done that. Have you read

622
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: the book? What do you think of it? I think

623
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: it needed a copy editor. I think that some of

624
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: it is very good. I think some of it is fantastical. UM,

625
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: But I think conceptually it's It's pretty right. Let's talk

626
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: about it, and it affirms what the rest of us

627
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: terrible reporters have been writing for a year and a half.

628
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: So have you talked to Michael wolf about it? We're

629
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: not friends. Let's talk about John. If he ever felt

630
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: like reaching out to me for comment, did be more

631
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: than welcome to John Kelly was supposedly going to bring

632
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: a sense of discipline well. John Kelly has made the

633
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: staff feel less scared of one another, which was really

634
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: happening with Steve Bannon. UM. People felt scared of Bannon.

635
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: Uh and the Bannon and Jared Navanka fight was horrible

636
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: UM internally for a lot of other staffers. And he

637
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: has made staff never feel less frightened of the president

638
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: himself in the sense that the president is a screamer

639
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: and he can be difficult, but he's done nothing to

640
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: control the president. Morale is terrible in the West Wang,

641
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: It's it's as bad or worse than it was when

642
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: Rance was there previous as the chief of staff. UM.

643
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: So Kelly has made a decision that you're not going

644
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: to change what a seventy one year old man does,

645
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: and he's not. And that seventy one year old man

646
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: gets in big public fights with his attorney general, his

647
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: Secretary of State, to name a couple. Do you think

648
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: that's strange? You know you do you think that's aberrant

649
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: unusual or do you think that that's normally what presidents do.

650
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: I think it's the metrics laid before us by by

651
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: recent books. Yeah, yeah, what what is the state of

652
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: those relationships with the senior cabinet members to the great question. Um,

653
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: it depends on who it is. Mike Pompeio he has

654
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: a great relationship with and he has this whole time,

655
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: which is interesting because they didn't really have a relationship

656
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: prior to the White House. Um. But he sees him

657
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: every morning, sees him every morning. Pompeio has figured out

658
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: how to brief Trump. He has sort of figured out

659
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: how to speak Trump. Um. Tillerson Rex Tillers in the

660
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: Seretary of State, has not to speak Trump. Um. Although

661
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: Tillerson had been expected to leave this month, is now

662
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: telling people he doesn't want to leave, So we will

663
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: see what happens. Um. What do you think is the

664
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: conflict between those two guys just a very different style totally?

665
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I just think that, and I think the

666
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: Tillerson is just not used to being somebody's underlying honestly.

667
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: I mean it's a buttoned up corporate exactly totally, totally

668
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: like to with every fiber of his being, right, and

669
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 1: when the CEO of eggs on mobile, that's basically like

670
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: being a head of state, right, that's actually that's exactly right.

671
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: And he's used to being sort of honored and fitted

672
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 1: in a certain way. Um. So I think that's been

673
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: one obstacle. What up with? What up with Mike Pence? Oh?

674
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: Being more specific? Um, well, every time you see him,

675
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: he's smiling graciously, you know, sort of nodding in agreement.

676
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: Don't you love how Maggie Maggie's been on her phone

677
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 1: when she's like reporting a story right now reporting sty

678
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 1: can you tell us? Well? We had we had had

679
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: a tip that um Met Romney had cancer at one point,

680
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: and it turns out he had um and it's prostate

681
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: cancer and we just hadn't been able to confirm it.

682
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 1: But somebody else just broke up. Really I'm just dealing

683
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,879
Speaker 1: with right now. Yea is he Yeah? And he's still

684
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: going to run. Um and he's still gonna run. All right, Well,

685
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 1: this is very exciting to hear, like breaking news. Who

686
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:20,240
Speaker 1: broke it? Uh? It was I think CNN. Um anyway, Sorry, anyway,

687
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: they're my employers. Still, I know, I know, what are

688
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 1: the there's a little sarcasm there, I know, So Pens,

689
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 1: I mean I think that. Look. Remember the thing that

690
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: everybody forgets about Pence is that he was a conservative

691
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: radio host before he was a congressman, and then he

692
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: then he was a governor of Indiana, and he struggled

693
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: politically as a governor of Indiana. He wasn't gonna get real,

694
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: he was not going to get correct, and so most

695
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: likely not and so um he um. I don't know

696
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 1: what the long game is here. I think basically he

697
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: actually took a short hop, right. I mean it was

698
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: either not get reelected for governor or roll the dice

699
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 1: and see what happens here. Um. He's very differential to

700
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: the resident, very very very difficult. Yes, every time he

701
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,959
Speaker 1: appears with him right, and he has he has found

702
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 1: a way to handle Trump pretty effectively. Trump really solicits

703
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 1: his opinion, likes him, seeks him out. Um, do you

704
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 1: think he'd be a good president. I think that you

705
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: never really know what somebody actually isn't like in the

706
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: job until they get in there. Although I didn't know

707
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: what Nonald Trump would be like before he got into it.

708
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: Unless chaotic president would be let's get he would be

709
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: a very conventional Republican, conservative Republican president, very conventional, very

710
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 1: very it would be like, um, they were discovering City

711
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: Hall and Giuliani was the mayor in his second term,

712
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: and I remember we were complaining about something that the

713
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: Press Office had done to us because you know, Giuliani

714
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: was sort of prototypical for Trump, except that Giuliani is

715
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: incredibly well read and um is has has actual sort

716
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 1: of policy thoughts and beliefs and core beliefs. Um but

717
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: very vindictive, but he's got it. But there there's a

718
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 1: lot of similarities there in their personalities. Is a reason

719
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: they're friends. Um But I remember we were all griping

720
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: in the press fan one day and on our way

721
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,959
Speaker 1: to an event about something that the Press Office had done,

722
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: and one of the radio reporters who had been there

723
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 1: long she's long since passed away, but who had been

724
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: there many many decades, said, you should be really grateful

725
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 1: he does this many events. You know, when it was

726
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 1: back in um in the A Beam days, the mayor

727
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,479
Speaker 1: would be unavailable for weeks. And like that's a little

728
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: bit what Pence would be. Like I don't know the

729
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: last time Pence to the live TV interview, Like, I mean,

730
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: he is really really, really careful and so different stylistically

731
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: than Trump. So two of the personalities that obviously get

732
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: enormous attention or Jared and Ivanka you know, they're young,

733
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: they're rich, they're glamorous. That I think a lot of

734
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: people resent them. They think, oh, well, there's got to

735
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 1: be something kind of corrupt or something a little bit yeah, malevolent,

736
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: corrupt or not the same thing. No about either of

737
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 1: both of them. What what are the facts that we

738
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 1: know about their roles in the administration, how they operate

739
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: day to day. Look, I mean, I think part of

740
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 1: the problem early on was that, um they when when

741
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: when Ryan's previous was made chief of staff, the immediate

742
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: thing that I said to source who told me was

743
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 1: it sorta doesn't matter who has the title, because Jared

744
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 1: will be acting as the chief of staff anyway. It's

745
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: only with Kelly that Jared has not been able to

746
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:29,919
Speaker 1: do that. Um. You know they're they're um, they're both

747
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 1: difficult um to read. They are um uh, they're very

748
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 1: different people. I mean, she really is a lot like

749
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: her father. Um. Jared is very sort of chill and

750
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: flat and does speaks as little as possible. Um. And

751
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: how is she like her father? She has um a

752
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 1: very similar set of grievances. She has a very similar

753
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: uh sense that people are being unfair to her. Um. Um,

754
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 1: she's a lot like him. Do you think she sees

755
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: what's happening with her father and is distressed in what sense?

756
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: I mean distressed at both how he is being perceived

757
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 1: and how he is governing. I don't think she's happy

758
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: with how he is being perceived, and I certainly know

759
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: there're aspects of his governance that she's not happy with him.

760
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 1: In their policy issues that they've disagreed on many of

761
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 1: them that I just mean his style, not policy. I

762
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: mean she has always tried to refine his style. At

763
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 1: the same time. This is when they're one area of

764
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: reporting in My Golf's book that I think was really

765
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: dated UM and I think was based primarily from people

766
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: who knew her when she was younger and before she

767
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: was being roomed to take over the company. UM. She

768
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 1: has gone from being sort of a somewhat resentful daughter

769
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: to really being, in many ways, the spitting image of him.

770
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: I'm not not I'm not physically obviously, but UM she

771
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: I but she's him without a lot of the flash

772
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 1: and style. She believe. She does believe that he's got

773
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 1: a genius. She believes that there are things that he

774
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: can into it that other people can't. UM and she's

775
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: very riveted by it. Um, but this is not the

776
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 1: life that they wanted. This is not and none of

777
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: this is what they thought was going to happen. Um.

778
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 1: Like him, she believed that they would walk in and

779
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 1: be treated sort of deferentially. Um. And she's been a

780
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 1: little surprised at How do you see actually is as

781
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: you look ahead? What are you most concerned about in

782
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 1: this year too? Um, I'd like I'd like yeah, I'd

783
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: like a little less nuclear fun talk on Twitter. I

784
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: think that that's a little alarming. Um. Um. Yeah, North

785
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: Korea is of great concern to the administration, and and um,

786
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: I think for a good reason. Um, that's my that's

787
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: my biggest concern. When he tweets that his button, his

788
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 1: red button is bigger. I mean, you can't make this

789
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: stuff up, can you, Maggie, Well, no comment, Um, I don't. Um.

790
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: I don't think any of it is productive or conducive

791
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: to actual policy or conversations. I just I think it's

792
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: a problem. What do you know about the more investigation,

793
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: the state of it, where it's headed, who it's ensnaring.

794
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,919
Speaker 1: Right now, we know very little about that. I mean, really,

795
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: I don't want to speak to something that we really

796
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 1: can't see into. What the George Papadoubel's indictment taught all

797
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: of us is how little we actually know about what

798
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 1: Mueller has. But given that he has gotten a bunch

799
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: of people to plead guilty, you should assume there's going

800
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 1: to be more, Maggie. On a personal level, how you know,

801
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 1: I people are criticized because they don't ask men the

802
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: same question. And I would argue that I would ask

803
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 1: men the same question. But given the demanding nature of

804
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: covering this White House, how are you able to unplug?

805
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: How are you able to be with your kids and

806
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: to do the things that you need to do um

807
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 1: when you're not at work? Um? With difficulty? I mean

808
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 1: I don't have it. I don't. None of this has

809
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: been easy. It's been really hard on my kids. Um, twelve,

810
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 1: eight and seven. That's little. The other really little. That's

811
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 1: what I would get, That's what I would undo. Over

812
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 1: the last years, so hard this has been on them.

813
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,879
Speaker 1: Is your husband a saint? Yes? Um, ask anyone who

814
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: knows us, Um he is. He's also he's the politics editor.

815
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: Yeah so, but he also has long hours because of

816
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: that job. It's just it's been hard on my kids. Um,

817
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 1: and it's been hard and and and Trump selection has

818
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 1: seeped into see at the time, seeped into schools in

819
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 1: a way that very few other campaigns have. So I

820
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: just my kids have just been surrounded by all of

821
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: this for a while. Do you feel that they're more

822
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,399
Speaker 1: anxious and you're more anxious as a result of what's

823
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: going on in the world. I mean, I think that

824
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 1: they're just being on duty all the time, Like this

825
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,760
Speaker 1: lends itself to being anxious. But what But beyond that, though,

826
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 1: beyond the hours that the stererm and drag that is constant,

827
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: I think it is a I think it is an

828
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: an unnerving time in the world. And I don't think

829
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: that we are any of us is impervious to it.

830
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 1: Let you just do the best you can. Let me

831
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 1: ask about someone else who who was or is close

832
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: to you, and that's Glenn thrush Um. You guys were

833
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: set to write a book together. He got into some

834
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: trouble apparently because of sexual misbehavior. Can you comment at

835
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: all about sort of what you know about those problems

836
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: and how it's affected your reporting and your relationship. I mean,

837
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 1: he's been a friend for a really long time. This

838
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 1: is obviously pretty painful for a lot of people, UM,

839
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: including UM these women who UH felt mistreated or who

840
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: were scared or uh who had encounters with him that

841
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: they were unhappy with and that they did not feel

842
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: good about. UM. But he also has said he as

843
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:40,959
Speaker 1: a substance of best problem, and I'm glad he's getting

844
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 1: helped for that. And beyond that, I don't really want

845
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: to talk about it. Let's talk about where you go

846
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 1: from here. So we're finishing up this podcast. It's approaching

847
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 1: three o'clock. You have an appointment, so we're going to

848
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: get you out of the studio. Thank you, But what

849
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,720
Speaker 1: is the rest of your day going to be? Like, Maggie,

850
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: I have a meeting with somebody of the paper, and

851
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 1: then I have to do a TV hit, and then

852
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: I have to meet a source, and then I have

853
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 1: to go home, and then tomorrow I go to Washington

854
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: And how do you? How do you? Kind of I'm

855
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: curious because I'm so impressed with your reporting and so

856
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: much reporting that's been done these days. I mean, I

857
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: know this White House leaks a lot, but is it

858
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: difficult is it difficult to find a source that really

859
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: trusts you and you can really trust Yeah, I mean

860
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 1: it's look, well, look it's difficult because Trump and the

861
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: people around Trump have historically told a lot more untruths

862
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: than any other campaign that I have dealt with. UM.

863
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 1: So we developed a system in the campaign, Ashley Parker,

864
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: Alex Burns and I did of sort of how we

865
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 1: would arrive at a common based soup stock of what

866
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: we what what was true based on a number of

867
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: people overlapping in the same account, and then anything that

868
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 1: did not comport with that would get shaved off. And

869
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: we we still use that. UM. The difficulty is just

870
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: that there is so much stuff that is un true

871
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: floating around, and then the true stuff is called false.

872
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 1: So and everyone has an agenda, and everyone has an

873
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: agenda correct, and it's usually about killing someone else, So

874
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 1: it's usually not policy, it's usually harming some other person.

875
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 1: On that note, Maggie, have a nice day. Thanks for

876
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: having me. You guys, thank you so much for Thanks

877
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 1: to our wonderful production team is always a tip of

878
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: our hat to produce ser Giana Palmer, our engineer Jared O'Connell,

879
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: assistant producer Nora Ritchie. Nor have I ever told you

880
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,320
Speaker 1: I really like the name Nora. I really like the

881
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: name Nora too, I do. It's my favorite dolls house.

882
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 1: And my mom's name was Eleanor, and Ellie is named Eleanor,

883
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: but I call her Ellie, not Nora. But I could

884
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: have called her Nora, but anyway, I didn't, And I

885
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,760
Speaker 1: like your name. Thanks also to Emily Beana of Katie

886
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 1: Couric Media, my assistant Beth Dems, and Alison Bresnik, who

887
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 1: hits the bull's eye day in and day out on

888
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: social media. Mark Phillips wrote our theme music. Katie Kirk

889
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,240
Speaker 1: and I are the show as executive producers, and please

890
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 1: if you can drop us a line at comments at

891
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: Current podcast dot com with guest ideas, feedback questions, or

892
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: anything that's on your mind. You can also find me

893
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 1: on social media under Katie Couric, and you can follow

894
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Goldsmith b. We'll be back next

895
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,720
Speaker 1: week with the next installment of our Wonder Women's series,

896
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,439
Speaker 1: so stay tuned for that everyone. Meanwhile, thanks so much

897
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: for listening. Bye bye, like John McLachlan would say, bye bye,

898
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 1: done done, done done,