WEBVTT - Episode 10: The Big Picture 0:00:01.520 --> 0:00:06.560 There are crooks everywhere you look. Now the situation is desperate. 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:18.000 In the last episode of Crooks Everywhere, you heard how 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:22.560 alleged mastermind Jorgen Fennick was arrested off the coast of 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:25.799 Malta as he attempted to flee the country on his 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:29.880 private yacht. He was later taken to cord In prison 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:35.360 and detained under preventative custody. For some reason, the authorities 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:40.839 saw him as a flight risk. Fenek was charged with 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:46.080 complicity to murder and criminal association, and he denies these charges. 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.360 At the time of recording, it has been nearly five 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:53.559 years since Feneck was arrested, and yet no date for 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:59.440 the trial has been seted. Jorgen Fenek is, of course 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:03.760 presumed innocent unto proven guilty, and he has the right 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:06.800 to a fair trial. But in the meantime we must 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:11.240 continue to interrogate what's going on in Malta. We are, 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:15.399 after all, investigating the murder of a colleague, yes, but 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:19.000 we're also telling the story of a country under siege 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:24.120 from corruption. All this and much more, including the criminal 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:31.800 charges against Joseph Muscat. In this final episode from My 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:37.720 Heart podcast, topic Studios and Vespucci. This is Crooks Everywhere, 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:52.320 Episode ten, The Big Picture. Hello, I'm John Sweeney. In 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:55.880 this our final episode of Crooks Everywhere. We're doing things 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:59.680 a bit differently around table discussion, bringing you up to 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:02.440 speed on the latest developments in the story of the 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:07.400 assassination of Daphne Carojuana Galitzia and the continuing impact of 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:11.840 her work and her tragic death. You will have already 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.800 noticed that there is a voice missing from this episode. 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:19.200 Manuel Delia is not able to join us for legal reasons. 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:22.320 I'll come to shortly, but first let me introduce you 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.600 to the two fantastic guests that are alongside me in 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:30.520 this absence. Firstly, Ellen Trapp, a German journalist based in Munich. 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:34.079 At the time of Daphne's murder, Ellen was stationed in 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:38.560 Rome as head of studio for ARD, Germany's national television station. 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:42.720 She was also the correspondent responsible for ARD's coverage of 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:46.400 Malta and flew straight into the country hours after Daphne's 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:50.800 assassination to cover the story. Eleanor is now head of 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:55.320 the Culture department at Ard. Hello, Ellen, Hi, And also 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:58.760 we have Carlo Benini, Deputy editor in chief of the 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:03.360 Italian national paper Republica, an expert on the intersection of 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:07.720 organized crime and politics, an author of several books, including 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.320 Murder on the Matter Express, which he co authored with 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:13.360 me and Manuel Hi Carlo. 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:14.360 I'm Efrem. 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:19.000 We all three of something in common when Daphne was murdered. 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:21.639 We were all compelled to travel to Malta to be there, 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:25.680 to interrogate what had happened, and to tell Daphne's story 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:28.359 back in our home countries. So I'd like to start 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:33.079 first with your personal relationship to this story, Allen. Can 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:35.560 you tell me why this story is so important to you. 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:39.240 I remember John and I heard it in the podcast 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:42.920 in another episode that you entered the BBC office and 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:47.680 there was just like silence when the breaking news came up. 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:52.240 And meanwhile I'm talking, I'm just getting really emotional because 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:55.240 I remember my situation in the same moment I entered. 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:58.560 I was editing another story in Rome and a colleague 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:01.440 entered the edit room and he's said, you know what 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:06.760 happened Dafne Carojuana Calthia's dad, And I said, and my 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:11.240 first idea was she was sick. So I just checked 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:14.240 my phone, I checked the news and I thought no, 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:22.000 she wasn't sick. So we were discussing extremely fast how 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:25.279 to react and what we can do, and I remember 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:27.960 we booked the flight and I said, I'm going to 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:32.760 Malta immediately to cover the story because it just hit 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:37.880 me deep in my heart as a European citizen, as 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:44.720 a woman, and as a journalist. So it was for 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:48.080 me a very, very shocking moment, and I felt so 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.880 responsible to tell this story. 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:55.839 Carlo, tell me where were you when you heard the 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:57.560 news and what was your instant reaction. 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:02.440 Well, John, I was in my newsroom, and the news 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:07.880 was really like a shot, a shot in my newsroom 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:12.000 because Daphne had been working for a long time on 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:17.080 Panama papers and my newspaper was involved in the consorts 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:20.359 room which work on it, so Daphne was well known. 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:23.800 The result was that the very next day we were 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:28.919 on a flight to Balita, and I remember also that 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:34.760 we decided that we were going to cover the story 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:38.760 of Daphne, the death of Daphne, the murder of Daphne 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:45.159 as a domestic story, with the same pressure to follow 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:48.760 the story and to get to the bottom of it. 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:52.000 For my point, I can remember vividly the atmosphere in 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.960 the newsroom. But there was a sense of shot. I remember, 0:05:56.000 --> 0:06:00.080 a sense of dread and a sense of cute. She 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:04.760 was We're gonna try and find out what happened here 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:07.200 because this is one of us is being killed, and 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:11.479 also a sense of determination as well. Ellenncarla, did you 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.080 feel that too, that this is one of us? 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:17.400 Absolutely, of course, because she's one of us. 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:20.400 She was one of us, even if I didn't meet her, 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.159 which I feel really sad about today. 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.920 Still today she had in Germany. 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:29.680 You say, she has the nose to get the good stories, 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:33.800 you know, and she's like a good researcher, and she 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:38.320 was like a fantastic journalist. So that's the reason why 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:41.200 I felt so shocked, because yes, she was one of us. 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:46.440 Goll It, definitely she was, and I remember that. My 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:52.800 thought was, they cannot think that the story will die 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.800 with her. I mean, you can kill one journalist, you 0:06:55.839 --> 0:07:00.000 can kill two journalists, you can kill those of journalist 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:04.520 so that he cannot kill journalism, and that I think 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:10.200 that was the best way to honor the life, the memory, 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:15.280 the passion of such a resilent woman. 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:17.800 Carlo. I want to buy you a drink, but it's 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:22.440 twelve thirty and you're in another country. So let's move 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:26.240 on to the first big important development and the reason 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:31.800 I'm without my co pilot Manuel today. On the nineteenth 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:35.280 of September twenty twenty four, a decree was fixed through 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:37.480 the door of the Course of Justice. In the letter, 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:40.840 it set out a ban on any writings, declarations, or 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:44.760 any public discussion on broadcast media or social media that 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:47.360 mentions the trial of Organ Fennik for the murder of 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:51.480 Daphne Carouana Glitzia. It seems that this ban also extends 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:56.440 to any discussion of Daphne's murder whatsoever, whether or not 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:00.400 Jurgen Fennick is referenced. The only exception is a reporting 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:03.880 of what happens in open court where journalists are allowed 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:08.200 to be present. A band like this is allowed under 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:12.560 an old Victorian Maltese law, but is very rarely used. 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:17.120 Daphne herself spoke out against this law, referencing another case. 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:20.760 She said, all the ban has done is to protect 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:24.240 the interests of the alleged aggressors. It also cheats the 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:28.160 public because of its need to see justice being done. Indeed, 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:32.960 the public in this situation doesn't even know whether justice 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:36.400 is being done. Manuel is challenging this ban on a 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:41.200 constitutional basis, but in the meantime we're respecting the judge's decision. 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:44.960 The first nine episodes of this series were recorded well 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.199 before the court degree, but as this episode has been 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:54.040 recorded after, Manuel is not participating. However, we understand that 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:57.960 those of us outside the Maltese jurisdiction are able to 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:03.280 continue to talk about this subject. So Ellen in Germany, 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:07.360 Carlo in Italy, and Me in Britain, respectively, will do 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:12.320 just that now. Jorgan Fennick denies the charges related to 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:17.520 Daphne's murder and is of course presumed innocent until proven guilty. 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:21.440 The express purpose of this ban is to protect Organ 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:24.440 Phenix's right to a fair trial. The issue I see 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:27.960 here is that whoever it was responsible for Daphne's murder 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:32.400 is responsible for the silencing of a journalist, and now 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:37.320 this decree seeks to silence all journalists on the subject 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:44.320 of Daphne's murder itself until his longer waited trial. We'll 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:47.120 talk about the delay, but what I want to talk 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:51.240 to you about first is this question of fairness. Carlo, 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:56.120 is it common for a European country to declare a 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:57.280 ban like this. 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:03.080 I can speak my country and there is no chance 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.720 that you can issue a better like this. We have 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:12.960 a constitutional right. And I think that you said the 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:19.240 right word before you said an ancient Victorian law. In 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:24.040 a Victorian age, you can think that a ban on 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:33.480 local papers could ensure sort of blanket effect. In twoenty 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:40.840 twenty four, in the digital age, choosing to apply a 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:48.000 Victorian law is nonsense and gives you the idea that 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:54.839 the let's say, the institutions in Malta are still afraid 0:10:55.120 --> 0:11:00.360 of the truth. I think there is something desperate in 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.880 this man. That's what I think. 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:05.800 Allen, can I bring you in here? How do we 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.200 strite the balance between reporting what is in the public 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:12.800 interest and avoiding trial by media? What's reasonable? What's fair? 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.600 I think yes, it had there has to be and 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:20.240 I guess we all agree in that there has to 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:25.280 be a fair trial for everyone, and that's even a 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:30.280 European value. There is a public interest and that what 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:34.960 happened to Manuel, and that what happened in Malta over years. Yes, 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.720 I agree to what Carlos said. They are still afraid. 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.760 What's coming next? What's the end of the story and 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:47.440 I think over years they thought the power means you 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.560 are rich and you have the money. But this is 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.800 not the real power. The power we have is actually 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:57.160 the freedom of speech. We have the journalists, we have 0:11:57.200 --> 0:11:59.920 a network, and the. 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:02.480 Jews has to come up at one point. 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:06.200 And so I think a fair trial, yes, but that 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:08.040 what happened in Malta is really. 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:10.880 I don't even find words for that. 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:16.120 May just add one thing. I am I am keen 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:21.079 on fair trial, but I think that a fair trial 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:29.800 relies for the strict application of the ruler law. A 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:36.080 fair trial has nothing to do with journalism or public debate. 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:43.080 A fair trial relies on the cautionists and the proficiency 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:46.559 of a professional judge. 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:50.120 There's a specific thing. At the moment, there is still 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:53.080 no date for the trial. The organ Fundic was arrested 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:55.480 in November twenty nineteen and then died of the murder 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.600 in August twenty twenty one. At the time of recording, 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.880 he's been held on remand almost five years now. It's 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:04.199 important to say that this is not unusual for Malta. 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:07.640 There are thirty three pending cases that have been waiting 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.520 even longer than this one, and the backlog won't be 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:14.439 cleared until twenty thirty seven, but the organ Fene's legal 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:18.400 team have also delayed things further with various appeals and complaints. 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.160 In fact, when Phene requested to have Madame just as 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:24.080 that Weena Greema removed from the case, he was denied 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:27.880 this until that this was solely the untem attempt to 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:32.480 uselessly prolong proceedings. So Carlo, tell me, do you think 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:36.079 this is a multi specific issue. Would we see delays 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:39.120 like this elsewhere with such a high profile case? 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:44.320 Well as you as you know, Italy is not at 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:49.080 the at the top of the for the top countries. 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:55.600 For you know, spitness of trials for five years? Five 0:13:55.679 --> 0:14:00.120 years is long tin als. Sorry, I'm nothing too, I 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:05.880 don't know, Yeah, I mean, you're right, five years is 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:07.400 really a long time. 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:10.400 Even even for an Italian, even. 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:11.559 For the Italian standards. 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.400 It wouldn't happen in Britain for a trial of this 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:18.320 importance and this magnitude. The idea that you'd be waiting 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.640 five years, I can't see that happening here. What about 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:23.120 would it happen in German? 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:27.040 Allen, No, it wouldn't happen in German, even like these 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:31.440 high profile cases like NSU or wire cat this went 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:32.920 away faster. 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:33.880 Yes, No. 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:38.040 Implicit an affair trial is that it should happen in 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.480 a timely fashion, and that's not happening here. By the way, 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:43.360 I should point out that this sort of delay is 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:46.000 not only unfair for the victims of a crime, but 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:50.000 also for those accused of that crime. Organzanek has experienced 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.840 five years of prison conditions when he is still presumed innocent. 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:57.840 By the way, that's not uncommon in Malta. But Carlo, 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.560 do you think this speaks to a dis functional justice system? 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:02.400 No? 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:11.400 I think it speaks to political oriented justice. I think 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:13.359 that justice in Multa. 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:14.160 I mean's a crooked one. 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.480 Yeah, well, you know, I think it justice Si Malta 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:26.000 can work smoothly and quickly. Remember when dafinitely died investigators 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:32.560 investigators from USA were sent on the scene, the FBI 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:41.680 Italian investigators gave even important boosts, so uh they where 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:47.320 every There was everything at the time to lead a 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:52.160 fair investigation that could lead to a fair trial and 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:54.120 at a quick and fair trial. 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:58.760 Ellen, what are the consequences of waiting so long for 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:02.480 the trial in terms of witness memory, in terms of 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:06.680 how evidence may may start to Deuteria. One of the 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:09.760 consequences of waiting so long for Astrang. 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:14.720 Yeah, there's once the witnesses themselves who cannot even remember 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:18.240 what happened. Second, like the Maltese people who are not 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.920 any more interested in the case Stephan Carowana Galita because 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:25.440 it's years ago. It might be their purpose that they 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:31.640 want the Maltese people who are fighting for the truth 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:37.120 at some point just to tire it. So I'm really 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:42.040 afraid that this is their purpose, just to play and 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.800 wait so that. 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:48.360 One day nobody's asking anymore. 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:52.240 But I'm still optimistic that this will not happen. 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:55.440 Well, it's always good to be optimistic. But reporting on 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:57.720 this story, I think you could be forgiven for thinking 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:00.880 that things just as bad and most today as they 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:04.359 were seven years ago when Daphne was killed, that the 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:09.000 corruption and criminality that she warned us about continues to flourish. Ellen, 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:11.760 I'm interested in your time as a foreign journalist covering 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:14.399 multi stories. Can you paint us a picture of the 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:16.680 levels of corruption you found. 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:20.280 That I was wondering if I ever did a nice 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:23.119 story about Malta in all these years I stayed in 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:28.879 Rome and covering Malta. It was always about selling passports, 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:31.040 like the hospital deal, it. 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:33.399 Was about gambling. 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:39.919 And then the assassination of Dafne Cajuerana Galicia. I felt 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:43.159 the level of corruption in Malta was really, really high, 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:46.520 and I stayed in Italy, and I mean Caldo knows 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.840 that more than I do. I was, you know, I 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:54.399 was used to some corruption in another country, but and 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:58.160 I didn't expect that or Malta. They build it up 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:03.840 and whole economy in a sort of illegal way to 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:09.639 get the people rich. The people means not like the 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:12.959 normal people on the street we meet. The people means, 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:18.880 of course, the political class that had an interest in 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:28.720 becoming richer, doing deals, and that's what I saw over years. 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:34.399 There is the possibility that some things might be changing 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:38.760 in Malta. In May twenty twenty four, ex Prime Minister 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:43.280 Joseph Muscat with charged with accepting bribes, corruption and public 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:46.959 office and money laundering, amongst other things. All these charges 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:50.359 relate to a deal made to privatize free public hospitals 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:54.640 in Malta and also implicate Muscat's former chief of staff 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:59.640 Keith Scambrie and former cabinet minister Conrad Mitzi. You heard 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:03.440 about the hospital or briefly in episode seven. It's a 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:07.840 story that Daphne broke back in twenty fifteen. The actualization 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.520 is that multi public funds that were intended for hospital 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:17.040 upkeep and repair were instead funneled to private beneficiaries, including Muscat, 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:23.720 Skembury and Mitzi. All three men deny wrongdoing. This is 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.600 a complicated case and it will take time to resolve, 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:30.080 but it is still hugely significant that the former prime 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:33.959 minister has been taken to court on these charges. Carlo, 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:37.400 how can we measure whether corruption is at last being 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:38.359 properly addressed? 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:46.840 I think the lesson, the ultimate lesson from Daphne Smarther 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:53.520 is is that what's going on in Malta, what's going 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:59.720 on in many countries that are experiencing a deep, a 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:03.840 u huge crisis of democracy, is that when in a 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:12.080 country democracy turns into a what we call the mokretura, 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:20.560 something between a regime with the resemblance of democracy, that's 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:25.240 the place where corruptions is a bound. 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:26.119 Three. 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:30.399 You John experienced a long time in Ukraine on the 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:34.840 East Front. We know what's going on in Russia. I 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:40.159 think that when we speak about corruption, we are talking 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:48.720 about the crisis of democracies as we used to know them. 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:54.360 We are all more or less sons of the twentieth 0:20:54.440 --> 0:21:01.280 century when democracies were conquered with the sacrifice of our 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:09.040 fathers or grandfathers. If we want to battle against corruption, 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:13.680 we have to fight to keep up with democracy in shape, 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:20.800 which means transparency, which means rule of law, which means 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:29.560 responsibility of each of us, beginning from the one who 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:34.840 does this beautiful job, which is journalism. 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:40.760 Beautifully put Karlo, one thing does more to have anti 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:44.680 mafia legislation, not I mean, as far as I know, 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:49.800 it doesn't correct answer. Surely that means it's going to 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:52.160 be difficult for the country to stand up for corruption 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:54.119 and the influence of organized crime. 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:56.960 Let's try to say that there is an organized crime 0:21:57.040 --> 0:22:03.159 families in Moldo Islands and try to do that. It 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:10.680 seems to me sadly that Malta has many many roads 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:14.840 to go to face the reality and to face the truth. 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:19.560 Remember John, when they decided to clean up the main 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:24.440 road in Valleta from candles and flowers, remembering and honoring 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:30.680 Dahny because that flowers in that candles put a shade 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:34.960 on the image of the island. There's the same stuff. 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:38.520 Yes, So this is what Colin's referring to folks is 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:42.919 every night her supporters were put up a little shrine. 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:47.520 They'll put up photographs and be flowers and reefs, and 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:50.520 every night, day after day after day, the bin men 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:53.320 would come and take it down and listen. Part of 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:56.439 this conversation we're having here and this whole series is 0:22:56.480 --> 0:22:59.320 about remembering Daphne Caronic let say herself, and what she 0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:03.320 stood for. She thought so fiercely against corruption, as we've 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:06.240 discussed already, and of course for freedom of speech and 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:11.119 the importance of journalism. When I think about Daphne and 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:13.920 what she took on in defense of journalism, and when 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:16.840 I look around me today in twenty four I worry 0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:20.760 about the state and the independence of journalism around the world. 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:24.399 Or am I being a bit of a cynic Ellen? 0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:28.120 I would love to be optimistic, but right now I'm 0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:36.359 not really because even I mean, populism fights journalism, and 0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:38.880 we see it in the US and we see it. 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:39.960 In several countries. 0:23:40.040 --> 0:23:46.080 So it's so hard to get to the people with 0:23:46.920 --> 0:23:51.960 real news. And I realized in Germany that the interest 0:23:52.320 --> 0:23:58.639 in some TikTok reels and insta stories from right wing 0:23:58.800 --> 0:24:05.920 parties are so much more popular than a high quality 0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:13.160 journalism story about corruption or organized crime or the war 0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:17.600 in the Ukraine or whatever happens in Israel and Gaza, 0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:23.879 and so I think, of course, the journalism is in 0:24:24.000 --> 0:24:28.359 danger and makes our work, our work so much harder 0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:33.040 and so much more complicated, as the people interested in 0:24:33.160 --> 0:24:38.760 easy answers in a really complicated, crazy world. Right now, 0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:43.760 the people are ignoring or think they think we are 0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:49.960 just like the left wing fake news idiots. And to 0:24:50.040 --> 0:24:55.680 fight against this is really, really hard. And I never 0:24:55.880 --> 0:25:00.399 had a situation in my journalistic life that I felt 0:25:01.760 --> 0:25:06.200 so pessimistic that I'm right now. I remember the first 0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:10.280 day I stayed in Valletta after the assassination, and I 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:12.560 did like a box pop in the streets of Valletta, 0:25:12.640 --> 0:25:17.679 and I asked the people what what about Dafne And 0:25:17.840 --> 0:25:22.119 some said she's like which I'm happy she's dead now, 0:25:22.560 --> 0:25:25.840 And it was like, there's a woman fearless in Malta, 0:25:25.960 --> 0:25:26.720 a journalist. 0:25:27.280 --> 0:25:28.520 She's doing a great work. 0:25:28.520 --> 0:25:32.280 And sometimes maybe one of your the blog stories you 0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:37.320 didn't like, Okay, that's fair enough, but searching for the 0:25:37.400 --> 0:25:43.320 truth might be a value we just should fight for. 0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:49.000 And I think this is a really hard work we 0:25:49.119 --> 0:25:50.520 have to do right now. 0:25:50.880 --> 0:25:53.840 I mean proud my career. There's always been very powerful 0:25:53.880 --> 0:26:00.000 media barons, for example the Murder family who control big 0:26:00.040 --> 0:26:03.360 newspapers in Britain, but also Fox News and all of that. 0:26:03.720 --> 0:26:08.400 But now there's something new, twister X whatever they call 0:26:08.480 --> 0:26:12.320 it these days, controlled by Elon Musk. So, Carlo, do 0:26:12.359 --> 0:26:16.680 you worry that the power of a very small number 0:26:16.720 --> 0:26:22.720 of individuals have it in shaping our global conversations is 0:26:22.760 --> 0:26:25.919 a threat to democracy and independent journalism? 0:26:26.320 --> 0:26:31.440 Definitely? It is. Oh, I agree with you. Democracies are 0:26:32.040 --> 0:26:37.520 at risk, are in danger, are sieged a populism as 0:26:37.560 --> 0:26:43.320 Ellen was saying that, As you know, I am an 0:26:43.320 --> 0:26:51.800 optimistic Italian. So I think that we have a chance 0:26:52.520 --> 0:26:57.680 and we work it out. There where other times when 0:26:57.760 --> 0:27:03.840 everything seemed lost, when journalism seem to have no space 0:27:04.240 --> 0:27:09.119 to go, and sometimes when I see my younger mates 0:27:09.400 --> 0:27:13.639 here in the news group, sometimes in good days, I 0:27:13.680 --> 0:27:17.760 think we'll work it out. They were as in Athlete, 0:27:17.920 --> 0:27:18.800 there were there. 0:27:18.640 --> 0:27:26.840 Were new generation of young journalists, independent journalists, bloggers whoever 0:27:28.240 --> 0:27:36.439 as this wonderful energy to fight for democracy and to 0:27:36.680 --> 0:27:38.200 keep the to keep. 0:27:38.040 --> 0:27:44.160 The light on. And also if you love to tell 0:27:44.200 --> 0:27:49.399 of yourself that you are an old cynical Brits, my 0:27:49.520 --> 0:27:54.280 dear John, what you did in the last couple of 0:27:54.359 --> 0:27:59.640 years in Ukraine, it's the proof that we will work 0:27:59.680 --> 0:28:03.400 it out, the journalists will survive. 0:28:04.600 --> 0:28:09.200 I've been put in my place by an optimistic Italian. 0:28:10.800 --> 0:28:14.359 I do believe that storytelling will out, the truth will out, 0:28:15.000 --> 0:28:17.879 and the best stories that are told are the stories 0:28:17.920 --> 0:28:22.000 that power and money don't want to be told. I'd 0:28:22.040 --> 0:28:24.880 like to draw things to a close here by remembering 0:28:24.920 --> 0:28:28.399 that Daphney continues to be a beacon for fearless independent 0:28:28.480 --> 0:28:32.560 journalism long after she's gone. And it's extraordinary to me 0:28:32.640 --> 0:28:35.480 that she died seven years ago and yet the repercussions 0:28:35.920 --> 0:28:38.320 of her story she broke continue to be felt to 0:28:38.440 --> 0:28:41.320 this day. But of course we can't forget that the 0:28:41.360 --> 0:28:46.120 things she thought so fearlessly against corruption and the silent 0:28:46.280 --> 0:28:50.360 saying a free speech that continues to be a violatle 0:28:50.360 --> 0:28:56.239 struggle in Malta and across the whole world today. So 0:28:56.960 --> 0:29:00.600 I'd like to ask you both about Daphne's legacy. What 0:29:00.680 --> 0:29:03.600