1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,560 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and this this next question. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,480 Speaker 1: You know, when it comes to journalism, it can't get 3 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: much better than my next two guests. They are two 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prize winners who have broken story after story after story. 5 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: James B. Stewart has already written fourteen best selling books, 6 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: and now he's teamed up with a fellow New York 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: Times reporter for her first Their collaboration is called Unscripted. 8 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: It's out this week, and holy moley, it is very juicy. 9 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: It reads like a crazy slash sexy HBO drama you 10 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: can't stop binging. With a full account of the story 11 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: behind the multibillion dollar entertainment company, Paramount Global and the 12 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: hard to believe drama of the family behind it, the 13 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: red Stones. This story goes way beyond succession. Well, I've 14 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: been joking that this is King Lear meets Weekend at Bernie's. 15 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: You'll year about the anonymous tip that set this book 16 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: in motion, Well, Rachel's confidential source. It's probably the single 17 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: most productive source I've ever encountered in my decades of reporting. 18 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: How Sumner Redstone became such a ruthless businessman he had 19 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: to win every single thing that he did. I think, 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: like a lot of these people, he was insecure. You know, 21 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: his early life, his mother was a dominating figure. How 22 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: that competitive drive destroyed his relationship with his own daughter, Sherry. 23 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: This is a guy who withheld his love from his 24 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: own child, and his child, Cherry Redstone, yearned for it 25 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: until the day he died. And how Redstone's insatiable sexual 26 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: appetite man this guy was a serious horn dog, prompted 27 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: his own grandson to enlist the help of a millionaire matchmaker. 28 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: Sumner was dating, you know, everyone acrossed his path, including 29 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: his grandson's girlfriends, and so his grandson actually set him up. 30 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: Of all people, with Patti's or the millionaire matchmaker of 31 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: reality TV fame will also learn more about the downfall 32 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 1: of my old boss, Let's move vest and what finally 33 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: did him in. I'm sure you can't wait to listen, 34 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: But before we get to that conversation, I'm excited to 35 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: quickly tell you about Wake Up Call. It's our daily 36 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: newsletter delivered to your inbox Monday through Saturday, bright and early. 37 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: In it, we break down the top news stories of 38 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: the day, We answer your pressing questions, and we scour 39 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: the Internet for the best entertainment tip bits, streaming recommendations, recipes, 40 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: and health and wellness tips. It's a one stop shop 41 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: for smart, busy people like you. This week on wake 42 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: Up Call, we're uncovering the science behind why people cheat. 43 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: We'll bring you interviews with Felicia Rosario and Daniel Levin. 44 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: They're featured in hulu Stolen Youth docuseries about the cult 45 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,679 Speaker 1: it Sarah Lawrence that devastated so many lives, and you'll 46 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: read a out of conversation I had with my nutritionists 47 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: about things you should be eating and not drinking to 48 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: reduce your risk of cancer. To subscribe to wake Up Call, 49 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: go to the link in the description below this episode. 50 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: It's right there in your podcast app or visit us 51 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 1: at Katie currect dot com. Now, Jim and Rachel with 52 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: all the dirt on Sumner Redstone, Where do we begin? 53 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: You too? I mean, this is very dishy, but I 54 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: had to wonder, do you think the average person really 55 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: gives a flying you know what about CBS, Viacom and 56 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: Sumner Redstone. Jim, I'll start with you. Well, I don't 57 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: think that matters because the story is about much more 58 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: than particular companies or even these particular characters to Austin 59 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: you Now, I think we both saw this as it's 60 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: a family drama. It's a story about a father and 61 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: a daughter. It's about a woman being thrust into the 62 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: male arc tank of Hollywood and surmounting one obstacle after another. 63 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: And you know other people have compared to Succession. I 64 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: think it goes way beyond Succession. It's entertaining, but I 65 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: think it is like the novels are I hope it's 66 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 1: very revealing about our times. It's almost Shakespearean in many 67 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: ways with I don't even know all the Shakespearean plays 68 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: that could be bundled up and thrown into this one. 69 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: And I thought about it's like it's like Succession, Billions 70 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: and Dynasty all rolled into one. Rachel, have I've forgotten 71 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: any drama? Well, I've been joking that this is King 72 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: Lear meets Weekend at Bernie's. How did you all get together? 73 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: And two fantastic reporters, I might add, and I understand 74 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: that an anonymous tip really brought you two together. Tell 75 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: me how this collaboration began and really kind of brought 76 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: your respective investigative reporting skills into one project. Rachel, How 77 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: did this happen? I mean, it's remarkable. Jim and I 78 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 1: I don't think we'd ever have a conversation before we 79 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: started working together. And I had been doing a lot 80 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: of me too reporting for The Times. Jim obviously is 81 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: an esteemed business journalist and columnist, and our paths had 82 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: just not intersected. And an anonymous tip came through the 83 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: New York Times tipline and it was forwarded to me 84 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: because it had to do with CBS, and I had 85 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: been working on some investigations about CBS and CBS is 86 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: investigation to its culture, and the person who emailed us, 87 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: it was very clear immediately was in a position to 88 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: just have a treasure trove of information, text messages, emails, 89 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: things that ultimately really led to us doing this book together. 90 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: But what happened was, you know, this email comes in 91 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: and an editor at the time says, you know, I 92 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: think Jim Stewart is working on something very similar. He's 93 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: also got a tip about something going on at at CBS, 94 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 1: and you really should talk to him. And so Jim 95 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: is a very respected, towering figure in our industry, and 96 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: I was almost a little bit nervous to talk to him, 97 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 1: but we both had the good fortune that he sat 98 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: on the outside aisle. So as I was walking home 99 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: one day and I already had my coat on, I 100 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: just said, well to stop by his desk and ask. 101 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: And I stopped and I said, you know here, you're 102 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: working on the CBS store and explained a little bit. 103 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: And that's how this came together. We ended up writing 104 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: stories for The Times, and it was very clear that 105 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: there was way more to the story that deserved a book, basically, 106 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: and you had a lot of the goods and Jim, 107 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: I'm sure you were like, I need to bring this 108 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 1: woman in and work on this together. Well, Rachel's confidential source, 109 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: I think his Rachel's source, because they really developed a relationship. 110 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: It's probably the single most productive source I've ever encountered 111 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,559 Speaker 1: in my decades of reporting. I mean, she handed over 112 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: an immense amount of testimony, of documents of text and emails. 113 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: As Rachel said, and we had other confidential sources too, 114 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 1: but it really enabled us to let the reader be 115 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: a fly on the wall and these amazing scenes no 116 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: that I, as a journalist have never been able to 117 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: do before. I'm in the CBS boardroom, the comments and oh, 118 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: my god, the comments like blew my mind. Or in 119 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: the Sumner Redstone mansion, which, by the way, where everything 120 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: was recorded in videotaped, you're a fly on the wall 121 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: when Sumner Redstone like kicks out his living girlfriends. I mean, 122 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: it's astonishingly direct material that we were able to weave 123 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: into the story. Of course, I'm dying to know who 124 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: the source was, and I know if you told me, 125 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: you'd have to kill me. But boy, lucky you to 126 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: have access to all of this. Well, let's take a 127 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,239 Speaker 1: step back, though, and I want you all to talk 128 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: about Sumner Redstone, who I had the pleasure of interviewing 129 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: once when I was at the Today Show. Who is 130 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: this guy who wants to take that Sumner maybe the 131 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: last of the old time moguls, and some way you 132 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: might want to hope he was the last of the 133 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: old time moguls because he assembled a multibillion dollar empire, 134 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: and you know, you have to admire this. He started 135 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: with a few drive in movie theaters outside of Boston, 136 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: where he was born, and he snapped up other companies. 137 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: He bought vot Coom, which owned a lot of cable channels, MTV, 138 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: Cartoon Network, Uh, you know, very successful cable channels. He 139 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: then went on to buy CBS, the broadcast network. He 140 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: added Paramount Movie Studio, so he had a fully integrated 141 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: media empire long before a lot of other people did. 142 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: But interestingly, he really descended on Hollywood as a multibillionaire 143 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: mogul when he was aged seventies six. Really he was 144 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: just getting started. I don't remember how ally when you 145 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: interviewed him, but you know, he was getting up there. 146 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: And you know, a lot of this story takes place 147 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: when he's in his nineties and still, you know, one 148 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: of the most powerful and richest media moguls on the planet. 149 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: More juicy tidbits about Sumner Stone and the whole gang 150 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: at Viacom right after this, Rachel, How did people treat 151 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: Sumner Redstone initially? Because he really was a fish out 152 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: of water, this guy from Boston, and boy, there are 153 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: a lot of stories about him, which we'll get into 154 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: in a moment. But was he considered an outsider and 155 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: how did people take to him initially? Well, he certainly 156 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 1: appeared like an outsider. I mean, as we detail in 157 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: the book, his appearance alone, you know, just a little 158 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: bit sloppy, the hair, you know that he looked like 159 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: it came from a bottle. Frumpy, right, kind of frump, yes, 160 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: kind of frumpy. This was not a man who looked 161 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: like a polished movie executive. He didn't carry himself the 162 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: way that less Moon invested. For example, he didn't have 163 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: less as Veneers. For example, he did not have less 164 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 1: as Veneers. But he had the same kind of ambition. Uh. 165 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: Sumner Redstone was ruthless, and you know, I have to 166 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: say this is really an example of he forced people 167 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: to take him seriously because he had the money. He 168 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: had the money and the drive and the power. So 169 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: you know, he was able to push a lot of 170 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: stuff through just on on sheer dint of will alone. 171 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: We have the guest listed his various birthday parties, and 172 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: you know every a list person is there. You know, 173 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: you've got enough money in power in Hollywood. You know, 174 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: at one point he threw Tom Cruise off the Paramount 175 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: lot and then he brought him back, and then Tom 176 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: Cruise is there at his birthday party. I mean that 177 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: Sumner could get anybody he wanted at any time. Tell 178 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: me a little bit about his personality. You talk about 179 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: him being ruthless, but how did he operate out in 180 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: the world gym. Well, he was intensely competitive and he 181 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: had to win, including you know, a tennis game with 182 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: his own daughter. He was curious when she she beat him. 183 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: He had to win every single thing that he did. 184 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: I mean, all of other people pondered the psychology of 185 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 1: that at the same time. I think, like a lot 186 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: of these people, he was insecure. You know, his early life, 187 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: his mother was a dominating figure. She wouldn't let him date. 188 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: He's studied all the time, and he's sort of you know, again, 189 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: he hit Hollywood at age seventy six, and he's sort 190 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: of sort of relived what for most people would be 191 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: an adolescence. He's like dating every good looking woman who 192 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 1: crossed his path. And by the way, he could get 193 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: people to come to his party, well, he could get 194 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 1: pretty much anybody wanted to go on a date with him, 195 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: given his money and power. Ye, we'll talk about that 196 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 1: that in a moment, Rachel. But for people who are 197 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: not necessarily well versed on Viacom and all the ins 198 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: and outs of that company, how did he go from 199 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: owning a few movie theaters to being this big maca 200 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: out in Hollywood? Rachel? Uh, he basically went on a 201 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: like I said, a ruthless acquisitions. I mean one of 202 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: his big wins was MTV. And and I remember this 203 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: because MTV was this kind of rebellious um little company 204 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: that ran music videos and put musicians on the air 205 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: that no one had ever heard of. People would executives 206 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: would go to the office in tennis shoes and jeans. 207 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: You know, this was not a corporate environment. And and 208 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: this was something you know, as Jim said, sum, there 209 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: was a guy who had to win at any cost 210 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: and he had to have MTV over the objections of 211 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: some of the executives there. And that is I would say, 212 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: like one of the biggest most recognizable brands that's in 213 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: the Viacom empire. I mean take me from the beginning, though. 214 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: You know, this guy's in Boston, he owns these movie theaters. 215 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: How did he get from Boston to Hollywood. Well, it's 216 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: it's pretty simple, a tourd to John Bonds. Uh. He 217 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: borrowed money, he used leverage. He claims to have invented 218 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: in Multiplux. He took the drave Ins and he turned 219 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: them into many movies, showing at once kind of anachronism. Now, 220 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: maybe but at the time that was an innovation. But 221 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: once he had the theaters under his belt and went 222 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: on his his buying spree, it was borrowed money, and 223 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 1: it was a time when most people were afraid to 224 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: do that. But he hooked up with Michael Milken. Michael 225 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: Milken befriended many sort of outsiders who had the brazenness 226 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: to borrow the money and take the plunge. One of 227 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: Sunder's proudest moments was when he outbid and beat Barry 228 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 1: Diller to get the Paramount studio. And for somebody who 229 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: started with drive in theaters to get Paramount, which when 230 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: was one of the premier studios that the mount everest 231 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: of Hollywood. From his perspective, was an unbelievable achievement, which, 232 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: by the way, figures in the story because the last 233 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: thing he wanted to do was ever give up Paramount. 234 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: There's a reason now the whole company is called Paramount. Ultimately, 235 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: where did he land and what did he have in 236 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: his purview? Sure he landed at the top of the mountain. 237 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: At one point, Viacom was one of the most important 238 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,839 Speaker 1: media companies of its time. It had, as I mentioned, MTV, 239 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: but it also had Nickelodeon, which has really fallen from grace, 240 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: But Nickelodeon was was printing money at one point at 241 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: its height. Um, he also had CBS, of course, and 242 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: you know, this was a guy who looked at Rupert 243 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: Murdoch and was jealous, you know, he wanted to be 244 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 1: that big And Jim, I'm sure you have something to 245 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: add about to sort of buy a comet at its peak, Well, 246 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: I had these very valuable cable channels, and until pretty recently, 247 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: cable channels was just a printing press for money. Now, 248 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: because the cable bondle, consumers bought a whole bundle, whether 249 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: they watched it or or not, they were paying, you know, 250 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: for MTV, they're paying for Comedy Center, they're paying for Nickelodeon. 251 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: There has never ever been a media model that was 252 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: more profitable than what turned into the cable monk. But 253 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: when Sumner Redstone divided his assets into the CBS business 254 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: on one hand and the Vacom business on the other, 255 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: vot Coom was the high growth company. And also, you know, 256 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: we obviously can't get inside less Moon VISs mind entirely, 257 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: although our text messages from him, you know, come really close. 258 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: But when Sumner Redstone split those two companies, CBS and Viacom, 259 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: Moonbus was furious that he got the sort of the 260 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: also rants, which was CBS. It was last in the 261 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: race eetings. It was not doing well, and you have 262 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: to imagine that because under him it went to the 263 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: most consistently watched broadcast network, which factors into our story 264 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: because you'd have to imagine that if he took it 265 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: from last ran to that. Then when Sherry Redstone comes 266 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: in and starts saying, oh, I want to merge the companies. 267 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: I want to do this, I want to do that, 268 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: you know he's probably thinking what, but I you know, 269 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: I fixed this place. Let's talk about the relationship with 270 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: Sumner Redstone and his daughter, because, as you mentioned earlier, 271 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: this is really a human drama and a real succession story. 272 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: This is a guy who withheld his love from his 273 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: own child, and his child, Cherry Redstone, yearned for it 274 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: until the day he died. And I think a lot 275 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: of people can relate to the idea of having sort 276 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: of an imperial parent who is withholding at times and 277 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: who gives out love sparingly and affection sparingly. And it 278 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: can also be incredibly harsh. I mean, the kind of 279 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: the kind of yearning for approval and affection that push 280 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: and pull and take away creates really wasn't play here. 281 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: And I think it's a played a lot of families. 282 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why she was sort of 283 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: reluctant to be part of her father's empire was because 284 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: she has maintained she wanted to be with her own children. 285 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: And you know, you'd have to wonder was that, in 286 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: some way an attempt to think, well, you know, I 287 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: don't want to repeat the same dynamics that that I 288 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: had to suffer through with my dad. I'd have to say, 289 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: I'd call this an abusive relationship myself. I mean, some nerve, 290 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: for example, would write emails and he would send them 291 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: to share with horrible language and I'm not going to 292 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: say in this interview horrible, and then he would copy 293 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: them to all VACOM and CBOUS executives and board members, 294 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: and so they read the same things that he was 295 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: sending to Sherry, which of course made her cry. He 296 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: didn't show up and she got, you know, the Woman 297 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: of the Year award in New York. He he sent 298 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: an open letter criticizing her that was printed in Forbes. 299 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: She read that and she cried it. You know, there's 300 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: a lot written about fathers and sons and mothers and sons. 301 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: I don't think the complicated relationships that fathers and daughters 302 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: have been explored nearly as much. And here you see 303 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: an aging patriarch who, on the one hand, is horribly 304 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: sexist and critical of his children by the way he 305 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 1: drove his son away completely and took up these surrogate sons, 306 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: and then at the same time he wants someone in 307 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: the family to carry on the family name. It's they 308 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: see that tension going back and forth throughout the story. 309 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 1: Why do you think he was so ugly to Shay Rachel? 310 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 1: I mean, where did that come from? This abusive, hateful, 311 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: cruel behavior towards his own daughter. Well, I think a 312 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: lot of it is what Jim said earlier, that this 313 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: is a guy who had to win at every cost, 314 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: and he was incapable of being happy for his own 315 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 1: kid if it cost him something. I think that's sort 316 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: of the key here. And this is also a man 317 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: who was known for firing executives if the stock dropped 318 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: like I don't know, half a cent or something. This 319 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: this guy, I think sort of the ruthlessness in business. 320 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 1: He also really played out with his his dynamic with 321 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: his daughter. Why you know, who's to say, but it's 322 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: certainly it's certainly not a typical father daughter relationship or 323 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: father or parent daughter. Yeah. You know, I think readers 324 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: can you know, from their own experience and kind of 325 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: see what's going on there. But somebody was the kind 326 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: of person, no matter who it was, if somebody else 327 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: succeeded in a way that somehow might diminish his accomplishments 328 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: or stature, he hated and resented that. So when Sherry 329 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,719 Speaker 1: got praised from the outside, some of his immediate response was, well, 330 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 1: wait a minute, I'm the one who built this company. 331 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: I gave them everything that they've got, and you know 332 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: there's a whiff in there that having made them incredibly wealthy, 333 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: he had to build it all himself. He had these 334 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: harsh parents, had the demanding mother, and they you know, 335 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: they had it kind of handed to them on the 336 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: silver platter created by by him, and so to the 337 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: extent they started succeeded on their own. He lashed out, 338 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,360 Speaker 1: We're going to talk about sort of what happened with 339 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,959 Speaker 1: the business and with Sherry in a moment. But we 340 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: have to talk about Sumner's insatiable sexual appetite because this 341 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: is something Honestly, it's like what, um, I know that 342 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: your book makes clear that Sumner's libido would not slow 343 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: down as he got older. Let's talk about his attitude 344 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: toward women in general, and then we'll get into the 345 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 1: nitty gritty of some of those conquests. I mean, his 346 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: attitude in a word, was awful. And you know, for 347 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: anybody wondering how how companies like CBS or Weinstein Company 348 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: or really any companies could have had systemic problems, inherent 349 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: cultural problems with women, with covering up misconduct, I mean, 350 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,120 Speaker 1: look no further than the way some of these guys 351 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: acted in their personal lives. Like to think that that 352 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: is divorced from their attitudes toward women in the workplace 353 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: is I think really a big misconception. And he treated 354 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: women like they were interchangeable, like they were for sale. 355 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: I mean, within our book, you can we detail a 356 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: lot of the women coming in and out of the mansion, 357 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:19,959 Speaker 1: women getting paid. At one point, he tries to go 358 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: after his grandson's girlfriend in the book, so which is 359 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 1: a crazy story and of itself that we write about. So, 360 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: you know, to to to a guy like Summer, nothing 361 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: was off limits. And it's that sense of entitlement that 362 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: I think it's a lot of these guys into trouble. 363 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: Why didn't he ever get me to Jim Well? I 364 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: think his misconduct was usually accompanied by a lot of money. 365 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean millions of dollars a million here, 366 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 1: ten million there, seven million to this woman. And you know, 367 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean there was certainly ample material there. 368 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: And you know, Rachel, I've talked a lot about about this. 369 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 1: It's interesting that as this mogul and again and elderly, 370 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: when when he got to Hollywood, a lot of this 371 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: seems to have been so important to him more to 372 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: impress his cronies. You know, he was he was his 373 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: best friend. I put that in clothes because who knows 374 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: these people have ever actually had any real friends. But 375 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: Robert Evans, who was, you know, the legendary producer who 376 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: was a notorious womanizer, always bragging about his conquest, and 377 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: this other group of sort of aging moguls. It was 378 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: almost like he just wanted to be able to like 379 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: appear with this beautiful blonde on his armor, a gorgeous woman. 380 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 1: And and again I think the reason nobody was blowing 381 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: the whistle even now, I mean, Rachel can testify to 382 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: this because she did a lot of this work. You know, 383 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: these women did not want to talk. It wasn't like, oh, 384 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: we're eager to tell what happened with some of the 385 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: red stuff. Oh No. There was a notorious story about 386 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: him even before I interviewed him, when there was the 387 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: fire at the Copley Plot, and of course this led 388 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: to his disfigured hand. What was the scene there? Um, 389 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: he was there with a mistress, girlfriend mistress. He was 390 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: there at the Copley Plaza hotel with with somebody who 391 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: was not his wife. They both escaped out the window. 392 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: But a remarkable thing about it is it was decades 393 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: before that fact that he was actually in there and 394 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: escaped with a mistress was ever published. And the legend 395 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: of this is that he clung for dear life with 396 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: his hand and was able to continue clinging even as 397 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: the fire burned and disfigured his hands for the rest 398 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: of his life. And he would tell the story as 399 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 1: an example of how he could survive anything and how 400 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 1: strong his ambition was and his will to live. I mean, 401 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: this is also a guy who would say, only half 402 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: jokingly that he never expected to die, so why did 403 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: he need a succession plan. He confided in one of 404 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: his girlfriends that the reason he said that was not 405 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: so much that he actually thought he was going to 406 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: live forever, but that he feared a final reckoning with 407 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: his maker and that he was going to be judged 408 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: very harshly. It does show a certain self awareness that 409 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 1: his behavior was in many cases beyond the pale, and 410 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: I think what he might have been most afraid of 411 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 1: was being judged for how he treated his own children. 412 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: Two women figure quite largely in this book, and those 413 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: were women who were in Sumner's later life. Sherry Redstone 414 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: not so fondly named them S and M. Sydney Holland 415 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 1: and Manuela Herzer. Who were they and how did they 416 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: come to know Sumner? Well, Sumner was dating, you know, 417 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: everyone acrossed his path, including his grandson's girlfriends, and so 418 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 1: his grandson actually set him up, of all people, with 419 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: Patty Standing or the millionaire matchmaker of reality TV fame, 420 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: and she eventually that's going to be a great scene 421 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: in the series you guys, it's an so yeah, she should. 422 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 1: So she is the one who introduced him to Sydney 423 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: halland they were friends. And Sydney Holland had I guess 424 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 1: you could call it somewhat checkered past um. She had 425 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: been dating older wealthy men and Um, according to her, 426 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: they had a whirlwind courtship and in short order she 427 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: had a non carrot diamond ring on her finger and 428 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 1: moved into the mansion with Sumner. Sometime after that, one 429 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: of Sumner's previous girlfriends, who Robert Evans introduced him. There 430 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 1: should have been a warning flag right there. She was 431 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: having her house remodeled, paid for by Sumner, and she 432 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: decided to move into the mansion while the remodeling was 433 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 1: going on. As far as I know, the remodeling is 434 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: still going on because she stayed. So these two women 435 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: were now living in the mansion. Sydney was supposedly his 436 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: fiancee and girlfriend, and Manuela, his ex girlfriend, was now 437 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 1: just a close confidante and companion. But they were living 438 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: in there, and slow but surely they started getting their 439 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: hands on the estate plan, the trust plan, the bank accounts, 440 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: the shareholders, and again to me, when the startling revelations 441 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: in the book. On one day alone, they got him 442 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: to sell all the CBS stock, which he said he 443 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: never would do, and he made a wire transfer of 444 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: ninety million dollars to the two of them that afternoon. 445 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: And in fact, when he died, didn't they share a 446 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million dollars of his wealth. By the 447 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: time Always said and done, they had managed to separate 448 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: over a hundred fifty million dollars from him. And that, 449 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: by the way, maybe an understate. You know, we can't 450 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: say to the penny how much there meant. It may 451 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: have been many millions more than that. There was also 452 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: Maliah and lynd She was a flight attendant on one 453 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,360 Speaker 1: of his private jets. How would you describe their relationship 454 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: Stockholm syndrome. I mean, this was this was a woman 455 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: who was not making a ton of money. I mean, 456 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: it would pay well to work on the corporate jet. 457 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,880 Speaker 1: But she she works on this thing and she counters Redstone, 458 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 1: who was known for just being horrific to the people 459 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 1: that worked for him, especially people on his planes, by 460 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 1: the way, and she flies with him one day and 461 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: he's just alternating between being abusive to her cursing at 462 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: her and hitting on her in full view by the 463 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: way of his guests who don't really do much of anything, 464 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: And she, of course is worried that about her job 465 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 1: and subsequently does not get invited back to any more 466 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: flights on the corporate jet, which was an important source 467 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: of income, and he keeps dangling job prospects for her. 468 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 1: You know, if you have come have dinner with me 469 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: and maybe we can talk about, you know, getting back 470 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 1: on the plane. You know, that's why I say Stockholm syndrome, 471 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: because she didn't really have a lot of good choices. 472 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: I mean, what else is you gonna do but the 473 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: billionaire saying maybe we'll give you work again. And Sydney 474 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: and Manuela plotted against her, right Jim, Yeah, you know, 475 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: Sydney and Manuela were not only tolerant but sort of 476 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: encouraged him to like have you know, I know how 477 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: to put this nicely, but shall we say encounters with 478 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: other women who then got money, because that kind of 479 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: took some of the pressure off them, I think, but 480 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: so they wouldn't have to sleep with them. Yes, I mean, 481 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: there were so many women who were brought into that 482 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: mansion and then you know, they were getting these sacks 483 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 1: full of you know, cash, and they you know, hand 484 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 1: out a thousand dollars here, ten tho dollars. Anyway, that's 485 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: all document you can. You can see that in the book. 486 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: But well that was going on. The Maliah thing got 487 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: out of hand. I mean, sum are seen by all 488 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: apparent purposes to be completely in love with her, even 489 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: though we revealed that he did assault her. She would 490 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: show up on these red carpet things on Sumner's arm, 491 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: and that's exactly what he wanted, the image he wanted 492 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 1: to her job. But they got jealous about this, so 493 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: they hired a private detective and they followed her. She 494 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: at some point she was concerned about her safety, even 495 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: whether her life was threatened, and they convinced Sumner that 496 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: she was cheating on him and had another boyfriend. Was 497 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: she did, and he got all upset about that, and 498 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 1: they managed to break them up. I have to add 499 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: another show to this, and this is Sister Wives. I mean, 500 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: what the heck is going on? And if some are 501 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: is such a shrewd businessman, how was he manipulated and 502 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: bamboozled by these two women so easily? On a somber note, 503 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,239 Speaker 1: one thing that was really upsetting to report on and 504 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: just listen to and think about is all the elder 505 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: abuse that is detailed in this book. And one of 506 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: the shocking, if not surprising, things that I think a 507 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 1: lot of people can relate to, is that the combination 508 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: of getting older, uh, wanting companionship, vulnerability, declining health, all 509 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: of these things make a person more vulnerable to outside influences. 510 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: I was really shocked that sum To Redstone, for all 511 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: of his wealth and power and resources, did not have 512 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: more guardrails up around him to prevent people like this 513 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: from getting in and just going back to the millionaire 514 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: matchmaker for a second, for your most of your audience 515 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: maybe has not does not understand who this person is. 516 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: This is a woman who had a Bravo reality show 517 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: where women would be corralled into a bar and so 518 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,719 Speaker 1: just for the opportunity to meet one so called millionaire. 519 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: So this was not like a classy matchmaking service. This 520 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: was not the kind of matchmaking service that you think 521 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: the rich and powerful billionaires availed themselves of, you know, 522 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: the kind of people that don't have even have a website. 523 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: So the idea that some no Redstone would turn to 524 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: her that his family would encourage him to use a 525 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: service like this. I mean, it just feels like there 526 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: were no protections. Well, clearly in these situations, Jim, mostly 527 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: it's your children who are going to protect you, right, 528 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: And he's so alienated. I mean, who is the first 529 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: line of defense when someone's getting older. It's someone's kids 530 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: who are going to protect that person when they're faculty 531 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: start to falter. And he didn't have those relationships, right, Jim. 532 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: In fact, that you see, he made his healthcare proxy 533 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: first his of surrogate's son, the chief executive of Vogkom, 534 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: one of his companies, and then after that he made 535 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: Manuela hurts Or the companion the healthcare proxy rather than 536 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: his own daughter. And you know, I think Rachel makes 537 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: a good point. You know, as he got older, he declined, 538 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: and we we gained access to previously confidential evaluations of 539 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: his mental state. And this is true. I think of 540 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,239 Speaker 1: so many people as they you know, age, it's not 541 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: a clear cut case of mental competence or not. It's 542 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: a gray area in between. It is sad to read 543 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: this report when you know what he was like at 544 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: his peak, but clearly he was in decline. He was 545 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: emotionally vulnerable, and these two women, whether it was instinct 546 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: or whether they you know, knew how to do this, 547 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: preyed on his vulnerabilities. They isolated him from the rest 548 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,959 Speaker 1: of the world. They isolated him from his family, They 549 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,959 Speaker 1: banned calls into the house, they changed bone numbers, they 550 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: did everything to cut him off from anyone except them. 551 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: And you can see how successful it was. I think 552 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: one of the shocking things in the book is how 553 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: close Sydney and Manuela came to gaining control of the 554 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: entire empire. And are they going to face any repercussions 555 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: for this behavior? I mean, what happened to them? Well, 556 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: we should point out that they've never been charged with 557 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: a crime. You know, the authorities did investigate claims of 558 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: elder abuse, they did not find any wrongdoing. Are they 559 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: going to face any consequences? I mean, so far, they 560 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: seemed to swan around Los Angeles, you know, chairing up 561 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: boards and running charities, and they're described by all these 562 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: precigious institutions and their biographies as you know, accomplished philanthropists. 563 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: So so far it seems like they've made out really 564 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: pretty well with a lot of money and and and 565 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: some some measure of respect and acceptance. Yeah, I would 566 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: add that that so called investigation and elder abuse was 567 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: a joke. I mean, they sent Los Angeles Protective Services, 568 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: sent somebody out there, and all they did was interviewed 569 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: Sunder himself with its lawyer and caregiver is standing right there. 570 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: They didn't interview any of the nurses or any of 571 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: the people who filed the complaint number one. And secondly, 572 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: the Redstones did file suit an elder view suit against them, 573 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: seeking the return of some of these many millions they got. 574 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: But in the end, Sherry residentatoricularly she didn't want to 575 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: litigate this. She didn't care that much about the money. 576 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: She just wanted them out of her life. So they 577 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: ended up settling those cases, leaving their fortunes intact. I 578 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: can't believe people would have them on their boards. But 579 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: I guess money talks right. This book, more than anything, 580 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: really emphasizes that money cannot buy you happiness. I can 581 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: buy you a lot, But this is really a tale 582 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: of that. Anybody who's ever had to decide whether or 583 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: not to take a driver's license away from a parent, 584 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: or had to figure out whether to step in because 585 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: they were trying to figure out is my parents able 586 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: to to lead their own independent life. As Jim said, 587 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: this book, people will relate to this because it's not 588 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: all clear cut. We'll be back with more of Jim 589 00:32:53,880 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: and Rachel right after this. Let's move from the personal 590 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: to the professional. Obviously, in many ways, Sumner Redstone's professional 591 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: life was as juicy and drama filled as his personal life, 592 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: especially the fall of Less Moves, which I am particularly 593 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: interested in since he hired me to anchor the CBS 594 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: Evening News. It's astonishing to realize the extent to which 595 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: the CBS board protected him despite the damning evidence against him. 596 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: How do you explain that the CBS board was except 597 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: for those loyal to Sherry Redstone or picked by Sherry Redstone, 598 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: who were a minority, We're basically picked by less boons. 599 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: They were friends of his, they were cronies of his, 600 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: They were very strong supporters. They were in awe of Less. 601 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: I mean, unlike a Harvey Einstein, Les Moonves was running 602 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: a major public corporation and was doing it incredibly well. 603 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: He was named by the Hollywood reporters the most powerful 604 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 1: man in the media and entertainment world. Wall Street loved him. 605 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: So from strictly a shareholder perspective, you could see that 606 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,399 Speaker 1: they were dazzled by him. But beyond that, they had 607 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,359 Speaker 1: attitudes about women and so that, you know, frankly, are 608 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: pretty anachronistic by today's standards. And so first the allegations 609 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: came up, their immediate impulse was or there can't be 610 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: anything to that. Um, they said, well, we'll ask less. 611 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,399 Speaker 1: So they asked less. He denies that. That the okay 612 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: end of that, we have nothing more to investigate. You know, 613 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: more allegations come up that you can't really refute and 614 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: there and now they're saying, oh, well, it all happened 615 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: a long time ago, or as one director, Arnold Cumblson 616 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: actually said, oh, we all did that. He he sent 617 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: an email that we saw that said if a hundred 618 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: more women came forward, we don't care less as our leader, 619 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: and we're ending by him. I remember reading that, I 620 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: think probably in your early reporting on this, right. Yeah, 621 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 1: it was just unbelievably blind loyalty and at the same 622 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 1: time suspicion of hostility of and absolutely no confidence in 623 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,720 Speaker 1: Sharon Redstone. It's not coincidence that she is the daughter 624 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: and she's a woman and lessman that was very successful 625 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: white male. I guess one of the mysteries is why 626 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: Less would have unleashed a corporate civil war knowing that 627 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: his predatory behavior was at great and imminent risk of 628 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: being publicly revealed. Those are your words? Are you any 629 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: closer having written this book to understanding less His mindset? Well, 630 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: he was in a terrible position, as you can read 631 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,919 Speaker 1: in his text messages and his anguished communications with other 632 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: board members. The decision to go to war with the 633 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 1: Redstones was not one he made lightly, and by the 634 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: end of it, I mean, he was damned if he did, 635 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 1: and damned if he didn't. You know, launching this nuclear 636 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: option potentially exposed him, but withdrawing and not doing anything 637 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,720 Speaker 1: was also a terrible option, because, as I mentioned earlier, 638 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 1: he didn't want this woman meddling in his business, in 639 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,760 Speaker 1: a business that he gave himself more credit than anyone 640 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 1: for making a success. I think when you read the 641 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 1: narrative you will understand why he did that, even though 642 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: on the face of it it seems crazy. And that's 643 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 1: because he had already denied to the board that they 644 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: had anything to worry about on this meto front. Then 645 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: the reason, of course he didn't want to go forward 646 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: was that so he couldn't admit to the board the 647 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: real reason why he didn't want to do it. At 648 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: the same time, if he pulled the plug on it, 649 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: the board member saying, look, you're gonna lose our back, 650 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,399 Speaker 1: You're going to lose face. He didn't want to lose 651 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: face with the board. He says at one point, there's 652 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: there's no way out here. There's no good answer. It's 653 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: terrible either either way. And you've seen the text. He's drinking, 654 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: he's kind of incoherent, he's going through this anguish. He's 655 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: soffering there was no way out, and of course he 656 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: decided to go forward. And I guess just roll the 657 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: eyes and hope desperately that you could somehow keep all 658 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: this quiet. He was between the proverbial rock in a 659 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: hard place, which seems completely apropos in this case because 660 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:22,760 Speaker 1: he apparently had a CBS employee on call for oral sex. 661 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: What come on and did that ever come out? Or 662 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: is this new in your book? We reported in the Times. 663 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: But there's certainly more color if you will, around all 664 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: of that in the book, And um, you know you'd 665 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: like to think that this kind of thing post me too, 666 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: doesn't happen again. But why, I mean, these companies are 667 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 1: run by in many cases people who grew up in 668 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: the same generation as less moonvest and and his cronies 669 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: on the board. And you know, companies have gotten much 670 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,959 Speaker 1: better at managing their pr crises over the last few years. 671 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,800 Speaker 1: I think they've gotten a lot less better and actually 672 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: changing internal cultures and until some until a scandal breaks, frankly, 673 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 1: and the reason we could report that, which, frankly is 674 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: one of the revelations that utterly floored me, that you 675 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,360 Speaker 1: would have someone on call for oral sex on the payroll. 676 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: But that and some other revelations in the book emerged 677 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:25,280 Speaker 1: from amazingly less Moon does himself. Late in the story, 678 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 1: he was interrogated by lawyers for CBS and they said, look, 679 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,799 Speaker 1: tell us what else was going on? Did anything else 680 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 1: happened here? And he kept stressing, oh, it's all consensual, 681 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: But less Moon viz confessed to the existence of this 682 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: woman on the payroll, as well as an affair he had, 683 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 1: you know, ongoing with a married woman. And we do 684 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 1: not reveal the names of these people. They've never come 685 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,359 Speaker 1: forward they've never complained. Again, he was saying, no, they 686 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: didn't complain about this, you know. There there, they were fine, 687 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: you know, And so he didn't really think that there 688 00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: was anything wrong with this, even though he was used saying, 689 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 1: you know, CDs shareholder assets and money to create the situation. 690 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: As the lawyers themselves concluded, he was he was utterly 691 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: toned off to how this would look, whether the women 692 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,240 Speaker 1: agreed or not. You can't do this in a public company. 693 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: And then of course there's the infamous U c L 694 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: A doctor story right when he went for a physical. 695 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: I mean, that's beyond belief to me still, I can't 696 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: believe the arrogance and stupidity of masturbating in front of 697 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,959 Speaker 1: a doctor. What that was the accusation that really put 698 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 1: some people who were close to Moonvest and had previously 699 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: been willing to dismiss allegations over the edge. I mean, 700 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: the idea that he would do this to a doctor 701 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 1: in a professional setting, that was the thing that really 702 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: tipped the scales for some people. That's interesting because I 703 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: still think there's that sort of sexist, antiquated attitude about women, 704 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: you know, wanting to be a part of this, right, 705 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: But this was such a clear affront to really a 706 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 1: relative stranger. It's upsetting to me that it took an 707 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: outsider to seal his fate, and that some of these 708 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: other women were not believed or excuses were made for 709 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 1: his behavior. Right. Yeah, It's almost like in order to 710 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: be taken seriously as a woman, she had to be 711 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,319 Speaker 1: a doctor. It wasn't enough for her to be an 712 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 1: executive or a masseuse or you know whatever. She had 713 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 1: to be, Oh my god, a doctor. Like we should 714 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 1: really take this one seriously. I agree with you. I mean, 715 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: there's so much rampant sexism in this book, not the 716 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: least of which, by the way, is the fact that 717 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 1: Sherry Redstone was accused of leaking a bunch of these 718 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: stories about his behavior. And as we detail in the book, 719 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,839 Speaker 1: there is no evidence for that. And I personally do 720 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,240 Speaker 1: not think that a man would have been accused of being, 721 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 1: as other people put it, conniving, manipulative, scheming, you know, 722 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,720 Speaker 1: the suspicion cast on her. The words used to describe 723 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,879 Speaker 1: what people thought she did were I mean, we'll never know, 724 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: but I mean, come, those words are tinged with sexism. 725 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 1: You make a good point, Katie, that the New Yorker 726 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,839 Speaker 1: magazine published two big articles revealing twelve women who came 727 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:12,359 Speaker 1: forward accusing Moonves of sexual misconduct, and that those were 728 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: not really the reasons that he ultimately got pushed out 729 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,239 Speaker 1: the board. I think to this day, if that had 730 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: been it, he might have survived. It was the doctor incident, 731 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: which was not in the New Yorker, And it was 732 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: the fact, as we disclosed, you know in the book 733 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: in great detail, that there was an actress he was 734 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 1: trying to keep quiet and her manager was squeezing moon 735 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,400 Speaker 1: Vest to try to get a role for her, and 736 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 1: he was making a lot of progress with this. And 737 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,839 Speaker 1: when the board lawyers and the board found out about this, 738 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,439 Speaker 1: that too was a nail in his coffin, because here 739 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: he was succumbing to this pressure, talking to CBS casting director, 740 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 1: encouraging them to hire this this woman, to keep her quiet, 741 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 1: and without disclosing any of that. And so that too 742 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,720 Speaker 1: was what finally did him. Man, what is Less Moonves 743 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,279 Speaker 1: doing today? And do you think he'll ever make it 744 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: come back? Stranger things have happened, And I know some 745 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,280 Speaker 1: of his colleagues in Hollywood think with his enormous wealth, 746 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: his popular and attractive wife and his powerful friends. That's somehow, 747 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: in some way he'll re emerge. Do you think, Jim, 748 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 1: that's actually possible. I would never count him out. I mean, he, 749 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 1: as you point out, he has many friends in Hollywood. 750 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 1: I have personal friends in Hollywood who I talked to 751 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 1: have said, you know, look, I don't I don't really 752 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,279 Speaker 1: know what happened there. But he was extremely good to 753 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,279 Speaker 1: me early in my career. I wouldn't be where I 754 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,759 Speaker 1: am today if it's not for him, and I you know, 755 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: I'm never going to forget that. Um. There are a 756 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,480 Speaker 1: lot of people who would, you know, warmly welcome him 757 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,200 Speaker 1: back if they had some protective cover. And with the 758 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 1: passage of time, who knows. I think when you read 759 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,440 Speaker 1: this book, um, that might set this campaign back a 760 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 1: little bit. But but you're right, you know, he was 761 00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,840 Speaker 1: very well live. Unlike Harvey Weinstein, he's never been charged 762 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,040 Speaker 1: with the crime, he's never been civilly sued. Much of 763 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 1: this did happen a long time ago, and Julie Chan, 764 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,240 Speaker 1: his wife, has staunchly defended him and that has carried 765 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,760 Speaker 1: I think a lot of weight in the power circles 766 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: of Hollywood. Do you think he's plotting his comeback, Rachel, 767 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,800 Speaker 1: I think Hollywood loves the redemption story, and I think 768 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 1: that no business is as image conscious as Hollywood. And 769 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: I would bet that a lot of the reason why 770 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 1: we're not hearing more from him about what he's doing 771 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 1: is because people don't want to be associated with him, 772 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,319 Speaker 1: not because they condemn his behavior. And I think that 773 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 1: as soon as enough time has passed where people will think, well, 774 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:34,080 Speaker 1: you know, I can be in business with this guy 775 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,480 Speaker 1: without getting a stench on me, then it's going to 776 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:38,920 Speaker 1: be more likely that we could see some activity from him. 777 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,400 Speaker 1: So just because he's lying low and not doing a 778 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 1: lot now, I don't think that that is necessarily a 779 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 1: predictor of future behavior interests. Having said that, he's no 780 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 1: spring Chicken, I mean, how old is Less now? Jim Well, 781 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,400 Speaker 1: one of the interesting aspects of all this to me, 782 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,920 Speaker 1: and as Sherry read Stun said to him at one point, 783 00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 1: you know, you know, Less, they're going to be seventy. 784 00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: You know, you've had an incredible reputation, you know, why 785 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,160 Speaker 1: not step down, you know, or why not consider you know, 786 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,239 Speaker 1: passing the torch? And yet no, he wouldn't do that, 787 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,840 Speaker 1: And uh, you know, I think there are these people 788 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,319 Speaker 1: in Hollywood. This is their whole live, this is their 789 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,719 Speaker 1: entire identity wrapped up in there, and they're just not 790 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,239 Speaker 1: willing to stop. So you know, I mean, look, here's 791 00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 1: some to Redstone in his nineties saying, I'm not going away. 792 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,439 Speaker 1: I'm still the chairman of these companies and I'm gonna 793 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,480 Speaker 1: live forever. So you know, by comparison, Sumner Less as 794 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,000 Speaker 1: a young guy. Well, so many of these people stay 795 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,320 Speaker 1: too long at the fair, and I think lived to 796 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 1: rue the day that they wouldn't let go because ultimately 797 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 1: they're forced out or they have an embarrassing downfall and 798 00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,880 Speaker 1: they just refused to quit while they're ahead because the 799 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:57,360 Speaker 1: power is just simply too intoxicating. Let's talk about Sherry 800 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: Redstone as we wrap up our conversation, and she got 801 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: the last laugh, didn't she. I mean, there's no way 802 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: to deny that she emerged victorious. I mean, how could 803 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 1: you not respect that, especially given the fact that what 804 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: she was up against. She had an unsupportive father for 805 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,720 Speaker 1: much of her career, she had a board that didn't 806 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,840 Speaker 1: respect her, she was warring with her chief executive. So 807 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,520 Speaker 1: I think anybody would look at this and think that 808 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: this woman survived and succeeded against all odds. Yeah, and 809 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 1: you know you have to give her credit. She I 810 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,799 Speaker 1: think right about putting those companies together. They did need 811 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,920 Speaker 1: greater scale. They should have done it years earlier, but 812 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,280 Speaker 1: better late than never, and they've produced some big hits. 813 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:40,200 Speaker 1: You know, toppedn Maverick was a huge blockbuster Yellowstone. But 814 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,480 Speaker 1: I wouldn't really even today say that Sherry Restone had 815 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,240 Speaker 1: the last laugh. I mean, she has gained tremendous respect 816 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: in the industry. On the other hand, I think the 817 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,040 Speaker 1: last scene in the book is very poignant. You know, 818 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,719 Speaker 1: her father has died. She you know, asked his very 819 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,600 Speaker 1: close confidante, do you think he really loved me? And 820 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,160 Speaker 1: I think that's so poignant that even after he's died 821 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:07,359 Speaker 1: and she has succeeded, she can't be sure of that. 822 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: I mean, and deep down is now what every child wants. 823 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:12,160 Speaker 1: I'm going back to what Rachel said to me. This 824 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:16,200 Speaker 1: is such a universal story about the relationship to when 825 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,479 Speaker 1: a father and a daughter and a daughter, or any 826 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,280 Speaker 1: child's need for the love and approval of their parents. 827 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,439 Speaker 1: But I do have to ask you, do you think 828 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,840 Speaker 1: the disfunction that was depicted in this book is a 829 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 1: thing of the past, or are we still likely to 830 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:37,400 Speaker 1: witness this kind of behavior, scandal and drama in the 831 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:41,520 Speaker 1: future wherever there's power and money. I guess their scandal 832 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:46,880 Speaker 1: and debauchery and treachery, right, yes, I mean, just because 833 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 1: you know Harvey Weinstein and subsequent stories have broken does 834 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 1: not mean that people change overnight. And the cynical side 835 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:55,400 Speaker 1: of me thinks that, you know, people with power and 836 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,680 Speaker 1: money are always going to be behaving badly and it's 837 00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,040 Speaker 1: just a matter of whether they get caught. So you know, 838 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,560 Speaker 1: I guess, I guess that's my cynical answer for you. 839 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:05,960 Speaker 1: And that's good because that gives you, guys plenty to 840 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,600 Speaker 1: write about, right, Yes, yes, exactly are writing about it. 841 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,080 Speaker 1: I mean, just to name the media and entertainment industry, 842 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:17,520 Speaker 1: the dramas that are going on at Fox and News Corps, 843 00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:23,760 Speaker 1: at Disney, at Warner Brothers Discovery. I rest my case 844 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:31,239 Speaker 1: in closing. What would you say is Sumner Redstones legacy? Ultimately, 845 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,440 Speaker 1: his legacy should be a cautionary tale about how, at 846 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,400 Speaker 1: the end of the day, business and successful business is 847 00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,000 Speaker 1: human and this is very much a human story about 848 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:45,440 Speaker 1: how family dysfunction affected a multibillion dollar empire and that 849 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,319 Speaker 1: you basically have to get your house in order. Jim. 850 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:54,040 Speaker 1: It certainly shows how far sheer determination and will can 851 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,160 Speaker 1: take you, but it also shows that once you succeed, 852 00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,719 Speaker 1: that success and the money that comes with it can 853 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,560 Speaker 1: be find you. So what's really important in life? Jim 854 00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,239 Speaker 1: and Rachel, thank you both so much for talking to 855 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,520 Speaker 1: me about the book. I know it's going to be 856 00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:13,560 Speaker 1: a huge success because people eat this stuff up, and 857 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,879 Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to the scripted series that I'm sure 858 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,719 Speaker 1: we'll follow this best selling book. It's great to see 859 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:22,840 Speaker 1: both of you. It's always a pleasure to talk to you, 860 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,960 Speaker 1: so thank you, thank you. Thanks. That was James B. 861 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:31,640 Speaker 1: Stewart and Rachel Abrams and their new book is called Unscripted. 862 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,360 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening everyone. And by the way, 863 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:37,960 Speaker 1: we're hard at work on the next season of our show. 864 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,279 Speaker 1: We're making some big changes and we're super excited to 865 00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,080 Speaker 1: bring them to you soon. We've got some incredible guests 866 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,520 Speaker 1: lined up. Always something important to share that will hopefully 867 00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:51,560 Speaker 1: help you navigate this crazy world we're living in. Kind 868 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,240 Speaker 1: of a survivor's guide to everything from work to family 869 00:48:55,320 --> 00:49:00,080 Speaker 1: to relationships. Help your media diet. Hopefully it's Katie to 870 00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,799 Speaker 1: the rescue. We'll see, plus we'll hear from listeners like 871 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:08,200 Speaker 1: you about how you're moving forward. We can't wait. Next 872 00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,760 Speaker 1: Question with Katie Curic is a production of I Heart 873 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,560 Speaker 1: Media and Katie Curric Media. The executive producers or me, 874 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:19,560 Speaker 1: Katie Curric and Courtney Litz, are wonderful new supervising producers 875 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:24,000 Speaker 1: Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Atriona Fossio and Katherine Law. 876 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:29,120 Speaker 1: Our audio engineers Matt Russell. For more information about today's episode, 877 00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,520 Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter wake Up Call, 878 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,959 Speaker 1: go to the description and the podcast app, or visit 879 00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:38,240 Speaker 1: us at Katie currect dot com. You can also find 880 00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,000 Speaker 1: me on Instagram and all my social media channels. For 881 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,480 Speaker 1: more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart 882 00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:49,319 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your 883 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:50,160 Speaker 1: favorite shows,