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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and it's just us and that's okay. And this

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Speaker 2: is our ongoing Studies Abroad ped issue.

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Speaker 3: That's right, and we you know, this is about the

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Speaker 3: Hillsborough disaster, which was the very unfortunate and super sad

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Speaker 3: and somewhat infuriating, deadly crush that happened at an English

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Speaker 3: football stadium in nineteen eighty nine. So we enlisted Kyle,

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Speaker 3: our one writer from the UK, to put this together

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Speaker 3: for us, and he did a great job and used

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Speaker 3: all the appropriate letters and terminology and his spelling and stuff.

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Speaker 2: You know, yeah, I was gonna say no z's throughout.

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Speaker 2: They were all s's.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He did a wonderful job this summarizing like a really

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Speaker 2: big giant story that had we done this episode like

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Speaker 2: when we first started, it would have been totally different

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Speaker 2: because around twenty fifteen, the public opinion, the entire basically

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Speaker 2: worldview of what happened at the strategedy completely flip flopped

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Speaker 2: and the truth finally came out. We'll get to all that,

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Speaker 2: but I'd say we kind of give everybody some background

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Speaker 2: about what's going on here. The whole thing took place,

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Speaker 2: like you said, in nineteen eighty nine at Hillsborough Stadium.

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Speaker 2: That's in Sheffield, which is in South Yorkshire, which is

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Speaker 2: a county in Yorkshire, And normally this is the home

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Speaker 2: of Sheffield Wednesday Football Club. That's where they play at Hillsboro,

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Speaker 2: but this day it was actually hosting an FA Cup semifinal.

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Speaker 2: That means it was all England teams and it was

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Speaker 2: between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest. So far, so good. This

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Speaker 2: is just a normal Cup semifinal game that's a big deal,

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Speaker 2: way bigger than the average Sheffield Wednesday Football club game.

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Speaker 2: But you know, so far it's pretty normal.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, they had Liverpool had more fans and

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure how it is now, but nineteen eighty

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Speaker 3: nine at least that was the case. I think it

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Speaker 3: probably still is. But they were allocated the smaller end

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Speaker 3: of the stadium and the entrance and you know, as

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Speaker 3: you'll a lot of times with disasters like these, you're

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Speaker 3: going to see it like a series of steps that

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Speaker 3: happened to kind of ensure unwittingly that something terrible goes down,

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Speaker 3: and this was sort of the first one was they

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Speaker 3: allocated the larger fan base the smaller end of the stadium,

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Speaker 3: and the entrance to that was at the end of

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Speaker 3: Lepping's Lane, which was a street that dead ended into

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Speaker 3: the stadium, and not only did it dead end, but

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Speaker 3: it bottlenecks. It got more narrow as you got toward

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Speaker 3: that dead end, and that the turnstiles there, which is

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Speaker 3: where you get in at that part of the stadium.

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Speaker 3: There were seven of them. They were old, you know,

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Speaker 3: this is an older stadium, and they didn't you know,

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Speaker 3: they just couldn't move people through as quickly as like

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Speaker 3: you would be able to today exactly.

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Speaker 2: And you know, under a normal game for Sheffield Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: this was not that big of a problem. This was

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Speaker 2: a very big problem this day because there were ten

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Speaker 2: one hundred fans who were just the ones who had

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Speaker 2: standing room only tickets in what are called pens. Right,

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Speaker 2: So they're ultimately like basically little terraces with a bunch

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Speaker 2: of little tiny steps on them and some railings which

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Speaker 2: are called crush barriers, and you just stand in them.

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Speaker 2: You just pack everybody in. But they're supposed to say like, okay,

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Speaker 2: there're no more than this many people can go into

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Speaker 2: this pen, no more than this many people can go

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Speaker 2: into that pen.

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Speaker 4: Whatever.

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Speaker 2: So there's ten thousand people who are all going into

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Speaker 2: these pens. They have to use these seven turnstyles so

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Speaker 2: very quickly. Even outside of this stadium, a bit of

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Speaker 2: a crush starts to happen, in part because the cops

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Speaker 2: aren't doing anything about having people form a line or q.

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Speaker 2: They're not directing anybody to do anything. It's just get

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Speaker 2: in where you fit in, and whoever gets there first

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Speaker 2: is the one who gets through that turnstile that moment.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know, there's plenty of surveillance footage and

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Speaker 3: stuff out and it was not you know, as we'll

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Speaker 3: see the story that was kind of cooked up to

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Speaker 3: evade I guess being responsible for this, which is what

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Speaker 3: they were, was that, you know, it was an unruly

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Speaker 3: crowd of drunks. Hooliganism was a thing much more back then.

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Speaker 3: They've basically eradicated that now for the most part. And

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Speaker 3: if you look at the footage, it's you know, it's

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Speaker 3: a bunch of kids, a lot of teenagers. It wasn't

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Speaker 3: super expensive back then to get into soccer and football

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Speaker 3: games like this. It was six pounds to get in

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Speaker 3: for standing room only, and they were lively. They were

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Speaker 3: have a good time, but it didn't look like anything

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Speaker 3: threatening at that point at all. There were people just like,

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Speaker 3: you know, kind of trying to get into the stadium

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Speaker 3: to see a game. They were excited about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah and all. This really kind of starts about ten

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Speaker 2: minutes before kickoff. That's when people are like, come on,

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Speaker 2: let's go, we got to get in. And like by

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Speaker 2: this time that crowd had backed like the lines or

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Speaker 2: whatever had backed up into Leppings Lane pretty far. So

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Speaker 2: people wanted to hurry up and get through right, But

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Speaker 2: like you said, everybody was generally good natured. Kickoff was

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Speaker 2: set at three pm, and at ten till three pm

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Speaker 2: there were still five thousand Liverpool fans who were outside

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Speaker 2: on Lepping's Lane trying to get through these seven turnstyles.

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Speaker 2: And so at this point the cops, at least one cop.

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Speaker 2: The guy who was in charge of managing this side

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Speaker 2: of the outside of the stadium, got in touch with

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Speaker 2: the guy who was running all of the police for

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Speaker 2: this soccer match. His name is David Duckinfield, and the

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Speaker 2: guy outside said, hey, we need to open a gate

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Speaker 2: and forget the turnstiles and tickets. There's a bunch of

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Speaker 2: people who are about to get crushed out here, and

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Speaker 2: we need to relieve some of this pressure. Please open

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Speaker 2: this gate. You did that once, Duck and Field ignored it,

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Speaker 2: did it twice, Duck and Field ignored it. The third time.

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Speaker 2: It was almost frantic, and Duck and Field finally said, okay,

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Speaker 2: go ahead and open gate. See they did that at

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Speaker 2: two point fifty two pm and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: just an enormous mass of people stream into essentially the

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Speaker 2: foyer of the stadium. So now you go from a

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Speaker 2: crowd crush outside of the stadium to the potential crowd

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Speaker 2: crush just inside the stadium.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and so, and we'll get to more about David Duckinfield,

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Speaker 3: the match commander, and his qualifications and stuff, I guess

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Speaker 3: in a minute. But one thing we did not mention

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Speaker 3: is these pins. And this was partially to kind of

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Speaker 3: keep hooliganism down. They were fenced within the seating area,

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Speaker 3: so once you got to this large standing there were

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Speaker 3: different numbered pins within that that were you know, fenced

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Speaker 3: off from each other. So there were literal pins and

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Speaker 3: when people started flowing through when they opened gate, sea.

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Speaker 3: They were all passing through towards this, you know, the

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Speaker 3: central part of the field, down this long tunnel. I

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Speaker 3: think Kyle said it was twenty three meters long to

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Speaker 3: get to pins three and four, which were basically midfield,

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Speaker 3: and there was plenty of room on the pins on

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Speaker 3: the outside. But because nobody was directing traffic, nobody was

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Speaker 3: relaying information, no one knew this, and those central pins

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Speaker 3: were already full at ten till when that big crowd

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Speaker 3: of people started to make their way to that spot.

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Speaker 2: Right. So again, because I was standing room ontely, it

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Speaker 2: didn't tell you what pen you had to go to.

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Speaker 2: You could go to whatever pen. But since that tunnel

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Speaker 2: was straight ahead, that's where people naturally went. And like

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Speaker 2: you said, those pins were already full. So as this

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Speaker 2: tunnel this crush of people, there's crowd of people after

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Speaker 2: opening gate, sea floods in connects with the people who

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Speaker 2: are all already coming through those seven turnstyles. Almost all

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Speaker 2: of them start to go through this tunnel, and that

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Speaker 2: tunnel opens up on two pens that are already full

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Speaker 2: of people, way over capacity already. As they found in retrospect,

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Speaker 2: there was about a thousand more people that they allowed

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Speaker 2: onto each pen than they should have based on the

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Speaker 2: kind of crowd control safety stuff they had in place.

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Speaker 2: So it was already dangerously full before those people from

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Speaker 2: Gate Sea even made their way down the tunnel. But

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Speaker 2: when they did, they encountered this mass of other people.

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Speaker 2: But there were people behind them who didn't know this,

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Speaker 2: at the back of the tunnel, in the tunnel, and

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Speaker 2: they all wanted in two so everybody was pressing forward

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Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden a crowd crush happened

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Speaker 2: in those two middle pens.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 3: So it's about five till kickoff. At this point when

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Speaker 3: people like later described just sort of a change in

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Speaker 3: how things were going, you know, like I said, it

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Speaker 3: was it was people generally happy to go see this

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Speaker 3: soccer game. And by two fifty five it becomes clear

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Speaker 3: that like something's wrong. Four minutes later it was a

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Speaker 3: lethal crush had developed and those two central pins and officers,

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Speaker 3: some of them are telling people to move back like

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Speaker 3: this is part of the problem is the officers themselves

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Speaker 3: were very disorganized and not sharing information. So some officers

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Speaker 3: are telling people to move back. They're saying they can't

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Speaker 3: move back because there's people behind them and those fences

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Speaker 3: that were installed to I think that was in nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventy seven to prevent the hooliganism. We're keeping people like

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Speaker 3: once they got in from being like, oh wow, it's

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Speaker 3: getting like super crowded, let's move to these outer pins

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Speaker 3: where there's plenty of room. People started climbing fences and stuff,

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Speaker 3: and this is where it gets really really out of hand,

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Speaker 3: like the panic starts to set in. People are trying

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Speaker 3: to drag people over the fences to safety. Some of

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Speaker 3: the gates of the pins were opened by the cops

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Speaker 3: at that point, but it's developed into like a real dangerous.

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Speaker 2: Right, And so inside the pens there's those railings that

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Speaker 2: they're kind of like intermittently staggered in the pens, right,

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Speaker 2: So if you walk into one of these pens and

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Speaker 2: you're facing the field, you'll eventually come to a railing,

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Speaker 2: and that's a crowd barrier or a crush barrier, which

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Speaker 2: means that if a crush develops, that barrier is supposed

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Speaker 2: to stop it from going any further than the barrier.

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Speaker 2: So the people behind the barrier, life's gonna suck for them,

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Speaker 2: but the people in front of that barrier will be safe. Right,

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Speaker 2: it's like limiting crowd crushes. Well, the problem is one

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Speaker 2: of them was very very old, at least one, and

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Speaker 2: it gave So there's a whole crush of people who

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Speaker 2: are pressed up against this and a whole bunch of

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Speaker 2: people on the other side of it too, And now

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Speaker 2: one of those barriers fall and that crush of people

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Speaker 2: just basically spills into this other group of people in

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Speaker 2: the same pen and people it just fell over. It

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Speaker 2: was like a wave of people that overcame the people

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Speaker 2: who were standing on the other side of that barrier

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Speaker 2: that broke.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so all this time the match starts on time,

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Speaker 3: word is not again. Communication was just kind of chaotic,

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Speaker 3: and no one got word down to the pitch that hey,

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Speaker 3: maybe we should delay this game and get this under control.

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Speaker 3: And at three pm the game starts at three oh five,

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Speaker 3: those barriers, at least the one in Pen three, had

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Speaker 3: given away, and a human cascade starts. And this is when,

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Speaker 3: you know, the devastating stuff. We're not going to read

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Speaker 3: one thousand accounts of people getting you know, squeezed to death,

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Speaker 3: because it's pretty awful, but you know what happens in

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Speaker 3: a situation like that is you can't breathe because you're

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Speaker 3: so packed into one another that you can't expand your

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Speaker 3: chest out to get a breath, and you generally die

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Speaker 3: of asphyxiation or like your heart stops right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this happened to a lot of people in

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Speaker 2: this We talked a lot about this phenomenon in the

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Speaker 2: Crowd episode and I think in the Black Friday episode two.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the Crowd one was what inspired this episode.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because we we just touched on it just a

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Speaker 2: little bit, right.

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Speaker 3: I don't even know if I mean, I think if

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Speaker 3: we mentioned it. I said, I brought it up because

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Speaker 3: I had asked Kyle to write this.

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Speaker 2: Gotcha, gotcha? Okay, But when there was like when this crowd,

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Speaker 2: this human cascade happened, people got pushed over, and you know,

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Speaker 2: there's a natural human reaction to try to get upright again,

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Speaker 2: which means that you were standing on people beneath you,

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Speaker 2: and so people got trampled. In addition to the people

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Speaker 2: who were pressed up against the other crush barriers or

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Speaker 2: against the fence. There's some really disturbing photos that were

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Speaker 2: taken very close up of the people pressed up against

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Speaker 2: the fence. Did you see those.

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Speaker 3: I saw them when I was in high school and

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Speaker 3: sports illustrated, Like, I remember this vividly. I didn't go

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Speaker 3: back and revisit a lot of that because it's super upsetting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is upsiding. And there's a guy who

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Speaker 2: took a lot of His name was David Cannon, and

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Speaker 2: he was at least partially responsible for getting the police

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Speaker 2: to finally stop the game. The reason why they wanted

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Speaker 2: to stop the game so bad is because they think

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Speaker 2: that that that crush or that movement that caused the

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Speaker 2: human cascade was in response to one of Liverpool's players

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Speaker 2: just missing a goal, and so they're like, we need

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Speaker 2: to stop the game, right, So this guy, David Cannon,

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Speaker 2: got them to stop the game, or at least he tried.

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Speaker 2: He's one of the main photographers who was there at

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Speaker 2: the time, so his pictures are like you said, it's

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Speaker 2: very disturbing to see this because you can hear people

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Speaker 2: describe it, you can read descriptions of it, but when

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Speaker 2: you see the people pressed up against the fence like

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Speaker 2: they were, it really comes home how horrific this was.

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Speaker 2: Like you can kind of finally start to imagine yourself

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Speaker 2: in that position.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's yeah, it's pretty bad. That's why I didn't

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Speaker 3: go back and look at three oh six. It was

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Speaker 3: a superintendent who actually got the game stopped. He went

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Speaker 3: down to the pitch and actually went to the referee.

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Speaker 3: They had a couple of minutes before signaled to the

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Speaker 3: police control box to stop, but it kept on for

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Speaker 3: two more minutes. So that's when the superintendent finally like

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Speaker 3: literally went on the field and told the referee, like,

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Speaker 3: you got to stop this game. This isn't because you know,

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Speaker 3: everyone thought it was just like rowdy fans, and he

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Speaker 3: was like, no, that this is not what's happening. The

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Speaker 3: match commander Duckinfield requested more cops to come. It was

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Speaker 3: called Operation Support, and no one was explaining why or

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Speaker 3: what's going on though, So once the officers and you know,

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Speaker 3: communications are not what they are now. Certainly it's not

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Speaker 3: an excuse, but they were not getting briefed on exactly

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Speaker 3: what was going on. So a lot of the cops

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Speaker 3: there assumed that the fans were just rowdy and we're

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Speaker 3: trying to like storm the fence, to storm the field,

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Speaker 3: and they formed a cordon on the pitch to kind

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Speaker 3: of keep that from happening. And again some of them

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Speaker 3: are opening gates, like they see what's going on and

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Speaker 3: are some or trying to help the fans, but other

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Speaker 3: cops are either ignoring them or like shoving people back in.

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Speaker 2: Right or standing there facing this crowd crush in a

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Speaker 2: line according with other cops. So imagine that, like just

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Speaker 2: how surreal that would look because they didn't understand what

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Speaker 2: was going on. So eventually they managed to open some

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Speaker 2: gates which allowed the crowd crush to ease up. And

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Speaker 2: so the crowd crush was bad enough, like the after

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Speaker 2: effects like immediate after effects, or it just continued to

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Speaker 2: go badly. The police response, the emergency response was just

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Speaker 2: so uncoordinated that it surely I think they proved it

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Speaker 2: cost the lives of scores of people. I think in

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Speaker 2: the end, ninety five people died, seven hundred were injured.

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Speaker 2: Two more people died years later. So really ninety seven

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Speaker 2: people died from this crowd crush.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, thirty seven people were teenagers, twenty seven were parents.

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Speaker 3: There was one ten year old that died. He was

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Speaker 3: very ironically, I guess, and sadly the cousin of Steven Gerard,

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Speaker 3: who was became a big star for England in their

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Speaker 3: soccer team, but I think the oldest I think that

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Speaker 3: was the youngest at ten and the oldest was a

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Speaker 3: sixty seven year old whose brother was playing for Liverpool.

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Speaker 3: And it's yeah again you know to read through like

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Speaker 3: each account is a little too depressing for this show.

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Speaker 3: But you did mention the two that died years later.

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Speaker 3: I think Tony Bland died four years after in nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety three. He had brain damage up into that point

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Speaker 3: and then what they count as the ninety seventh victim

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Speaker 3: didn't pass away until twenty twenty one, but they said

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Speaker 3: it was due to you know, these life changing injuries

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Speaker 3: that he suffered from this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think also brain damage as well. Andrew Devine,

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Speaker 2: So there were there was like an immediate response to this,

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Speaker 2: right spite what we'll see Liverpool just taking all of

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Speaker 2: the blame for this, Liverpool fans, there was like a

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Speaker 2: public response. One of the things was Paul McCartney jumped

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Speaker 2: in because this is a Liverpool team and he's from Liverpool.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you knew they're not Chuck, but he,

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Speaker 2: I guess released a charity single cover of fairy Cross

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Speaker 2: the Mercy.

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Speaker 4: Have you heard that song?

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Speaker 2: It's a good song.

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Speaker 3: I didn't think it was a great but I think

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Speaker 3: it was a great act.

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Speaker 2: Did you listen to the I didn't listen to the

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Speaker 2: eighty nine one that they released for as a charity single.

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Speaker 2: Did you listen to the original, because that's very good?

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Speaker 3: Oh? No, I listened to the one that pertained to

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Speaker 3: the show.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, at any rate, it's a good song originally,

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Speaker 2: and it was, like you said, a very cool act.

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Speaker 2: There were also tons like you can also see photos

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Speaker 2: of just the the whole entire soccer pitch covered with flowers,

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Speaker 2: just as in Memoriam. It was just there was a

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Speaker 2: there was a good public response, but ultimately public opinion

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Speaker 2: was much more venomous.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess that's probably a good time for a break,

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Speaker 3: and we'll come back and talk about that venom right

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00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:37,359
Speaker 3: up for this, all right, So, right after this, the

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Speaker 3: police basically immediately started trying to engage in successfully as

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Speaker 3: we'll see for a while, engaged in a cover up.

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00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 3: They wanted to, you know, not be on the hook

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Speaker 3: for this, and the hooliganism that I talked about had

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Speaker 3: been blamed. I thought we had done an episode on hooliganism,

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Speaker 3: but I don't think we ever did, did we?

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Speaker 2: No? Surely we talked about it in our soccer episode,

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Speaker 2: but I don't think we ever did one just on that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was on the list for a while, but

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00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,320
Speaker 3: maybe we should wait in case things change again. Okay,

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00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,879
Speaker 3: but that was the narrative that was fed the public

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Speaker 3: basically that match commander, and I guess we should go

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Speaker 3: ahead and talk about David Duckinfield a little bit. He's

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Speaker 3: the one that first started saying was that gate was

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Speaker 3: forced open by Liverpool fans, Like he denied even opening

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Speaker 3: that gate. This guy was not qualified for this job.

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Speaker 3: I think previous commanders did things like go down before

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Speaker 3: the game, like hours before, check things out, walk around,

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Speaker 3: identify choke points or potential hazards, because this had happened

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Speaker 3: a couple of times before, one time in this very stadium,

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Speaker 3: I think in nineteen eighty one, and so it was

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Speaker 3: top of mind or should have been, and he did

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Speaker 3: not do that. He never actually inspected the grounds beforehand,

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Speaker 3: and he kind of went missing from about noon to

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Speaker 3: two o'clock on the day, never accounted for his whereabouts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he had never commanded a match at the stadium,

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Speaker 2: let alone a semi final match. Just even a regular match.

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Speaker 2: He'd never commanded it, so he had no idea what

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Speaker 2: he was doing. He was also a very arrogant person,

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00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,720
Speaker 2: so he felt like he could just do it naturally.

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Speaker 2: He didn't need to familiarize himself. And he had served

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Speaker 2: as a rank and file patrolman or PC like ten

367
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Speaker 2: years before. That was the last time he'd worked a match,

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Speaker 2: and he was definitely not in charge of it. So

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Speaker 2: he was very much out of his league and like

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Speaker 2: it took him decades to finally acknowledge that. Instead, he

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Speaker 2: helped lead this police cover up that shifted all the

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00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:54,159
Speaker 2: blame unfairly and untruthfully toward the fans for Liverpool and

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Speaker 2: off of the cops who were really responsible for the tragedy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. So we'll get to kind of what

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Speaker 3: happened in a timeline since as this goes on in

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Speaker 3: a minute, But initially the police watchdog recommended that there

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Speaker 3: was like a disciplinary case would be brought against Duckinfield.

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Speaker 3: That did not happen at the time, and he was

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Speaker 3: medically retired two years later on full pension, basically to

380
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Speaker 3: evade these discipline from this incident. The case again that

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Speaker 3: the cops built was that people were drunk. They got

382
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Speaker 3: there late. It was the Liverpool fans, a lot of

383
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,119
Speaker 3: them didn't even have tickets and they were trying to

384
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Speaker 3: just force their way in. And over the years they

385
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,439
Speaker 3: found out that they had gone back in. Even this

386
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 3: is how despicable it gets. Not only did they cook

387
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 3: up this narrative, but they went back in and cooked

388
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:54,679
Speaker 3: the books and altered witness statements and removed comments about

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Speaker 3: that were unfavorable to the police and how things were handled,

390
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Speaker 3: and they torched it basically.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the force was very regimented, I saw, right.

392
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Speaker 2: So there wasn't there wasn't going to be any descent.

393
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Speaker 2: There wasn't going to be any secret tip offs to

394
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Speaker 2: the press about what really happened by any of the

395
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Speaker 2: police constables, you know, under these guys charge, right, So

396
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Speaker 2: the top saying this is what happened. That's what everybody

397
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Speaker 2: on the police force was going to say, what happened.

398
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,959
Speaker 2: And so that's what the media heard. And the British

399
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 2: tabloids typically have like a fairly bad reputation, and they

400
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 2: really showed up for it for this one. The whole

401
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 2: idea that the soccer fans, especially the Liverpool fans in

402
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:47,199
Speaker 2: particular were responsible for this. Would they just beat that

403
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 2: drum incessantly? They called the fans and by extension the

404
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 2: victims beasts yobs, which means thugs, vile. And then The

405
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 2: Sun printed a front page article called The Truth I

406
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 2: think within a day or two after this that really

407
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 2: drove this home, like just how despicable the tabloids could

408
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 2: get about this stuff.

409
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Speaker 3: Yeah, they said things like there were fans that were

410
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 3: urinating on cops, that they were looting the dead at

411
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 3: the time, and this was not the case. And The

412
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 3: Sun ended up apologizing in twenty twelve and has been

413
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 3: boycotted in Liverpool ever since. I still don't think they'd

414
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,679
Speaker 3: sell the Sun there good, even after the apologies. But

415
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 3: this was, you know, this was the nineteen eighties and

416
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 3: things were different back then. The hooliganism was, you know,

417
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 3: much more prominent. So it was a narrative which was

418
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,880
Speaker 3: easy for people to believe in England, and when they

419
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 3: were reading it, they you know, people were like, yeah,

420
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 3: this is the typical sort of anti social underclass is

421
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 3: how Kyle put it. They're trying to get in without tickets,

422
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 3: you know, drunk it through in the afternoon, it was

423
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 3: a different kind of It was a different sport back

424
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 3: then in a lot of ways, as far as you know,

425
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 3: as we'll see the kind of money that poured into

426
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 3: the sport in the nineteen nineties after this, certainly with

427
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 3: the start of the Premier League in nineteen ninety two

428
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 3: and ticket prices rising and stadiums modernizing and just big

429
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 3: money and big business. It just it was a lot

430
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 3: more just kind of small time and old school and

431
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 3: quaint back then, and so people were ready to accept

432
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,959
Speaker 3: this narrative, you know, kind of as it was being

433
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 3: fed to them.

434
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Britain has a classist streak running through it and

435
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 2: this certainly fit that idea, that supposition that lower classes

436
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 2: were drunk and violent, and of course they were responsible

437
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 2: for this, right, But so the public accepted this. The

438
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 2: Thatcher government obviously was totally down with this idea, and

439
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: that's just how it went. Like that was it, as

440
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 2: far as everybody was concerned. Thanks to the police reports,

441
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 2: thanks to the government stance, thanks to what the media

442
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 2: was saying. What happened was a bunch of drunk Liverpool

443
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 2: fans who didn't have tickets storm the gate and ninety

444
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 2: seven people ended up dying as a result. Shame on

445
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 2: Liverpool and its fans. That was the public opinion on

446
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 2: this for years.

447
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 3: That's right. So in nineteen ninety we get our first

448
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 3: independent report. It was called the Tailor Report for Lord

449
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 3: Justice Taylor, and they, I mean, this was kind of

450
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 3: right after and they did come out blaming the police

451
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 3: failure to control the crowd first off, and Duckinfield specifically

452
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 3: for failing to close this tunnel. Like if they e

453
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 3: would have closed that tunnel and it would have fed

454
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 3: people to the empty pins, and that could that probably

455
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 3: would have avoided this whole thing, despite like having way

456
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 3: too many people down there. If they would have been

457
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 3: fed to those empty your pens, this probably wouldn't have happened. Sure,

458
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 3: and he made you know, safety recommendations in the final report,

459
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 3: but very key, it didn't have anything in there about

460
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 3: like like hey, these people were all just victims and

461
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 3: they had no part in sort of making this happen.

462
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 3: That didn't. That didn't come along until much later.

463
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 2: No, for sure, that closing that tunnel too, or his

464
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 2: failure to close the tunnel two is even worse than

465
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 2: it seems because that was actually such a widely used

466
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 2: technique for police superintendents who were in charge of overseeing

467
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 2: matches over the years that one of them had his

468
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 2: name on. It was called the Freeman tactic. And it

469
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 2: was as simple as closing that middle tunnel and opening

470
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 2: the entrances to the less the less full pens. And

471
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 2: so that just shows you how little of a grasp

472
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 2: Duckinfield had on the concept of safety at a football

473
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 2: match that he was responsible for overseeing. He didn't even

474
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 2: know about the Freeman if you ask me. And like

475
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 2: rank and file cops who worked matches before knew about

476
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,439
Speaker 2: the Freeman tactic. It was like that was a huge

477
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: deal in addition to all the people dying as a

478
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 2: result that the fact that like everyone knew that you

479
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 2: should do that and Duck and Field didn't is a

480
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 2: big deal.

481
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. And a year later, after the Taylor

482
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 3: Independent Report, the Tailor Report, these inquests are coming back

483
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 3: with verdicts. Accidental death is basically what they all were,

484
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 3: you know, decided upon, and it was very controversial. Obviously,

485
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 3: the victims' families are and they're the ones you know

486
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 3: who kept us alive all these years until they, you know,

487
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 3: finally got some measure of accountability. I guess the coroner

488
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 3: ruled out evidence relating to death anything after three pm.

489
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 3: He ruled out evidence because he said everybody was either

490
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 3: dead or brain dead by three point fifteen, and there

491
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 3: were there was like actual proof that would come out

492
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 3: later that some people survived until four pm, and a

493
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 3: lot of people would have survived for that forty five

494
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 3: minutes had they gotten emergency services in there in an

495
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 3: orderly manner.

496
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 2: Right Yeah, those are the people I was talking about earlier.

497
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 2: So that coroner essentially was just basically going along with

498
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 2: the sentiment, the public sentiment that these people surely it

499
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 2: wasn't the police who were responsible, right Yeah. In addition

500
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 2: though to being disorganized, they were also like really cruel

501
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 2: to the families, And this stuff came out in these reports,

502
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 2: including the Hip report in the trials that like, if

503
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 2: you were a victim family member, you were sent to

504
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 2: a gym, a nearby gym that had been turned into

505
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 2: a morgue, and the first thing that you encountered was

506
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 2: standing out waiting outside in the cold before they led

507
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 2: you in and handed you a stack of polaroids of

508
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 2: the victim's dead bodies.

509
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 3: Right yeah, I mean they had to look through those

510
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 3: who identify their own. It was pretty brutal.

511
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 2: But it wasn't even like are you looking for a child?

512
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: Are you looking for a man? And they were sorted.

513
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,719
Speaker 2: It was like, here's the stack of polaroids, look through

514
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: hi until you find your loved one. The parents of

515
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: the children who died, they weren't allowed to hold or

516
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 2: kiss them because they were told that they were property

517
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 2: of the coroner. And the coroner himself seems to have

518
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 2: been on the cover up to some degree, tangentially, because

519
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 2: he ordered that all of the deceased, including the children,

520
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 2: have their blood drawn to be tested for alcohol content

521
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 2: to support this police narrative. Well, what turned out, what

522
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 2: he did inadvertently was show that alcohol was not a

523
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 2: factor in this really, Like there were very few drunk people,

524
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 2: and the ones that were drunk weren't all that drunk.

525
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, in a weird way, it's good that

526
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: he did that, you know.

527
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 4: Yeah.

528
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 2: So, like you said, the families of the victims organized

529
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: and tried to keep this thing alive and you know,

530
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 2: keep the public from solidifying their about what had happened,

531
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: and they managed to get a private prosecution I guess

532
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 2: laid or charged against the police for this for the incident.

533
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 2: Didn't know you could do that. Apparently you can still

534
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 2: in the UK, America some other places. But a private

535
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 2: group of people can get a court to prosecute people,

536
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: and that's what they did. And this found that duck

537
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 2: and Field, they couldn't reach a verdict on him, whether

538
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 2: he was criminally responsible or not. One of his deputies

539
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 2: was acquitted and the judge in this case said, that's it.

540
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 2: Duck and Field will never face another a retrial like

541
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 2: this is it. He's not responsible, even though we failed

542
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 2: to reach a verdict, which is a weird thing to do.

543
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: But that happened in two thousand.

544
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, charges against Sheffield the actual football club that wasn't

545
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 3: even playing that day, but he played in that stadium

546
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 3: Sheffield Wednesday, and the Sheffield City Council and the safety

547
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 3: engineers the Eastwoods were ruled out. And this was I

548
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 3: think years earlier, so they were already off the hook.

549
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 3: So that was all in two thousand. Twelve years later,

550
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 3: in twenty twelve, there was another report that the Hip Report,

551
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 3: the Hillsboro Independent Panel, and that brought about some new

552
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 3: inquests more sort of digging into this thing about like

553
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 3: what happened with the police, And this is the one

554
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 3: that really started to kind of turn the tide as

555
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 3: far as the public goes. And one of the reasons

556
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 3: it happened was because MP Andy Burnham was at a

557
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 3: twenty year memorial service and was just lambasted by the

558
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:40,719
Speaker 3: crowd people chanting justice for the ninety six. Really had

559
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 3: a hard time at that event. So he's the one

560
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 3: that was like, let's open this back up four hundred

561
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 3: and fifty thousand pages of information, and this is when

562
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 3: they really kind of started to make things right.

563
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, that panel apparently kept like releasing information piecemeal and

564
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: the press is kept reporting on it, and very quickly

565
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 2: the public was like, oh wait, we've been wrong. It

566
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 2: wasn't these drunken Liverpool fans. They were mistreated. The families

567
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: of the victims were mistreated, survivors were mistreated. It was

568
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 2: actually these cops, and the cops had lied to essentially

569
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: cover up their responsibility. Like the public opinion just completely shifted,

570
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 2: and so that hip report led to new inquests, and

571
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 2: the inquests found that the ninety six victims and later

572
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 2: on the ninety seventh victim were all unlawfully killed. So

573
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 2: it wasn't accidental anymore. Like the first inquest found they

574
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 2: were unlawfully killed, which meant someone is criminally accountable for

575
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 2: their deaths, right, And this inquest said go figure it out,

576
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: like this is our we're saying, we're recommending that somebody

577
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: is responsible for this.

578
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. It also found that forty one I was looking

579
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 3: for the number earlier, but forty one of the ninety

580
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 3: six who died, they said, quote had potential to survive

581
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 3: if the you know, rescue had been a little more organized,

582
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 3: because I don't think we said the first ambulance arrived

583
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 3: on the scene at three sixteen, and even when the

584
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 3: ambulances had been called, they didn't know the severity of

585
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 3: the situation because they I think one cop called for

586
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 3: like a big, you know, mass of ambulances to come,

587
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 3: but it wasn't described what was happening, so they refused

588
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 3: that initial. The medical services refused that initial like huge

589
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 3: rush of ambulances and just sent like some They also

590
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 3: didn't set up patriage on the field like you know,

591
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 3: we'll get to that in a little more detail. But

592
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 3: forty one of the ninety six would have survived, they determined,

593
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 3: which is just a brutal number.

594
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, in twenty nineteen, after all this stuff had come out,

595
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: public opinion changed, Duckingfield was dragged back into court. Remember

596
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 2: that one judge had been like, he can't face a retrial. Well,

597
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 2: they were like, well, circumstances have changed enough now that

598
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: he's definitely going to be tried again. And he was

599
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 2: found not guilty of gross negligence manslaughter. And then they

600
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 2: also heard evidence about the altering of the police reports

601
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 2: to make it favorable for the cops and make it

602
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 2: unfavorable for the Liverpool fans, and those guys got off too.

603
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 2: So now we have a place where the inquest, the

604
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 2: government inquest, is saying these people are unlawfully killed, so

605
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,800
Speaker 2: someone's criminally responsible, and the courts are saying the people

606
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 2: who are responsible are not criminally responsible, So nobody is

607
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 2: liable anymore. Nobody's responsible officially.

608
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then the final well, who knows it's a

609
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 3: final report because they seem to still be happening. But

610
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 3: last year, in twenty twenty five, an Independent Office for

611
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 3: Police Conduct report came out and basically reiterated that nobody

612
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 3: was going to be held like, actually held responsible. You know,

613
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 3: they it wasn't as cold hearted as it sounds, they

614
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 3: were basically saying like, hey, this is thirty six years later.

615
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 3: All twelve of these officers are either have either passed

616
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 3: on or have long since retired. And I got the

617
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 3: sense it was like, can we can we put this

618
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 3: all behind us now and not throw these old cops

619
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 3: in jail.

620
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 2: Essentially, But yeah, I think the families were like, well,

621
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,280
Speaker 2: they're still responsible even though they're old. And the reason

622
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 2: that they got old because you took fourteen years to

623
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 2: conduct this investigation.

624
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 3: Yeah for sure, let's take a break.

625
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 2: Chuck, and we'll come back and finish up.

626
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:53,919
Speaker 4: Huh. Yeah, let's do it, okay, Chuck.

627
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 2: So not just the hip report, but a bunch of

628
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 2: different reports basically showed quite clearly that the police response,

629
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: the emergency response was just terrible. And you talked a

630
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 2: lot about what the I guess the cluster with the ambulances,

631
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 2: but the police as well were essentially disorganized about its

632
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 2: disorganized as a group of police can be. And the

633
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 2: reason why is because again David Duckinfield was just out

634
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 2: of his depth through and through even though he was

635
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 2: commanding the match. And I said that he was a

636
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 2: rather arrogant type and he was. But in twenty fifteen,

637
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 2: for the first time in decades, twenty five plus years,

638
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,240
Speaker 2: as these reports started coming out and public opinion changed,

639
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: when he was tried, eventually he admitted. After seven days

640
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 2: of intense grilling on the stand, he finally basically broke

641
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 2: down and admitted like, yes, he was responsible for the

642
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,720
Speaker 2: death of those ninety six people because the ninety seventh

643
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 2: hadn't died yet, and that he froze under pressure. This

644
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 2: is a complete reversal of what he'd been saying the

645
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 2: whole time, Chuck like he'd been saying it was the

646
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 2: Liverpool fans. They were drunk. They were drunk. These guys

647
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:07,919
Speaker 2: have been saying it for decades. Now, all of a sudden,

648
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 2: the guy in charge says, no, I failed and people

649
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 2: died because I was not qualified to command that match.

650
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. You know, you hear something like that as a

651
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 3: family member of a victim, and it's I don't know

652
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 3: how that feels, actually, I don't know if that would

653
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 3: provide some solace to finally hear the truth, yeah, or

654
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 3: if it just like re angers you all over again

655
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 3: after all these years.

656
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 2: Probably both.

657
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of mixed emotion about it,

658
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 3: but at the very least that finally happened. I mean,

659
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 3: there is something about somebody finally admitting something like and

660
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 3: not just continuing to gaslight the world and the victims themselves,

661
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 3: So I guess that is something. It really changed stadium

662
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 3: safety and security after this, the Taylor Report. They basically said, hey,

663
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 3: no more of these standing room only things. You have

664
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 3: to have seats for everybody that's in there. I think

665
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 3: it was all the clubs in the top two divisions

666
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety four had to move to that, and

667
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 3: then they established the Ground Sports Ground Safety Authority after that,

668
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 3: you know, to oversee like all of these football stadiums

669
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:16,479
Speaker 3: over there.

670
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 4: Right.

671
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was a major turning point, not just in

672
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 2: safety at football matches, but in the game of football

673
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 2: itself because this happened to coincide with England making it

674
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: into the semi finals in the World Cup in nineteen

675
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 2: ninety and you know a lot of people who had

676
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 2: been former football fans were now caught up in the

677
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 2: spirit again. So that brought a lot of people back

678
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 2: to being fans of pro football. Those upgrades that the

679
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 2: clubs and the stadiums were required to undertake meant that

680
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: they needed to up ticket prices, higher ticket prices, like

681
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 2: you said, kind of change the social strata of fans.

682
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 2: It got more expensive, it got more business like soccer

683
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 2: changed almost directly as a result of the Hillsborough tragedy.

684
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that, you know, when the Premier League came

685
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 3: on in ninety two, like that was that was a

686
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 3: real game changer. Like the amount of money that is

687
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 3: spent in the Premier League on players, on the teams,

688
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 3: on I think there's the and I'll probably get some

689
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 3: of this wrong because I don't call the Premier League,

690
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 3: but my good friends do all of them almost And

691
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 3: they were talking about the you know, you get relegated

692
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 3: if you don't I guess when, or I guess if

693
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 3: you're in the bottom of whatever category and you don't

694
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 3: make that you don't win that game to stay in

695
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 3: the Premier League, you get relegated down to the lower league.

696
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 3: And so that game to see who gets relegated and

697
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,760
Speaker 3: who doesn't is called the most expensive game in sports

698
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 3: or something like that, just because of like all the

699
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 3: money that comes with or that you miss out on

700
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 3: with being relegated or that comes with staying in the

701
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 3: Premier League.

702
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, these guys get paid like thousands and thousands of

703
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 2: pounds a year to play, some of them way more

704
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 2: than that.

705
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 3: That even the first joke of the episode.

706
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 2: Let's talk about Keir Starmer because he is under fire

707
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:11,720
Speaker 2: right now. That family or the organization of victims Families,

708
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 2: they haven't gone away. They organized and they're still very

709
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 2: vocal and one of the things that they have been

710
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: doing is putting pressure on Kere Starmer and his labor

711
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 2: government because he made a direct promise that he would

712
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,760
Speaker 2: see through the Hillsborough Law, which would it was pretty

713
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: important legislation, or it would be if they get it

714
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 2: passed through.

715
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think the whole point, it seems to be

716
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 3: of the Hillsborough Law would be to enforce and it's

717
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 3: weird that you have the law to do this, but

718
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 3: to enforce truth when cops are dealing with something like

719
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 3: this and basically like almost like a whistleblower thing like hey,

720
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 3: you can come out and tell the truth, Like you

721
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,439
Speaker 3: don't like you're obliged to tell the truth. You don't

722
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 3: have to go along with this narrative that gets passed

723
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 3: down and that loyalty that you were kind of talking

724
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 3: about earlier on I don't I'm that didn't like really

725
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 3: dig into the law. I don't know if they're like

726
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 3: protections or anything involved, but that law was is hasn't

727
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 3: been passed yet, which is really frustrating.

728
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, not just cops too, but like any public

729
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 2: official has to tell the truth and when it pertains

730
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: to their work, which actually it is sad that you

731
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 2: would need to make a law, but that would be

732
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 2: revolutionary to have a law like that in any country,

733
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 2: you know.

734
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think the hang up maybe or one

735
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 3: of the hang ups is I five, And we did

736
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 3: a pretty good episode on that at one point that

737
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 3: I think Kyle helped us with that one too. But

738
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 3: unless I'm reading this wrong, it seems like I five

739
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 3: is hanging it up because they're like, hey, listen, like

740
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 3: we deal in lies and subterfuge, like that's our bag,

741
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 3: so we can't be included in this.

742
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 4: That is our bag. Baby, That's right.

743
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 3: I missed it. I missed the baby.

744
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:56,959
Speaker 2: You got anything else?

745
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 3: I got nothing else, just to an awful tragedy, like

746
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 3: I said. I remember this was right after spring break

747
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 3: my senior year. I came home and I had been

748
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 3: a regular Sports Illustrated subscriber since I was like nine

749
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,760
Speaker 3: years old and this was I think the cover issue

750
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 3: even and that's where I saw those brutal pictures. If

751
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 3: you're into a it's not like super hard to watch

752
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 3: other than you know, it's about the tragedy, but they

753
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,839
Speaker 3: don't show like truly truly awful things. There's that twelve

754
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 3: minute documentary from The Guardian that you sent that really

755
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 3: encapsulates it, although there are some body bags and stuff

756
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 3: like that, so I guess there should be a trigger

757
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 3: warning there, Yeah, for sure, But thankfully there weren't. Like,

758
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 3: you know, I didn't see any actual video footage of

759
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 3: the fences and the people, like, I don't know if

760
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 3: that exists.

761
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. Yeah, I don't know either. The photographs

762
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 2: definitely do. I'd be surprised if there wasn't any footage, So, you.

763
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 3: Know, yeah, I wonder if that photographer won an award

764
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:00,479
Speaker 3: for that work he did.

765
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 2: You should have, especially if he was one of the

766
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 2: people helping, because you know, so many fans helped, you know,

767
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 2: try to render aid to the people on the field.

768
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 2: One thing we probably should mention that that we didn't

769
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,879
Speaker 2: is that in twenty twelve, the United Kingdom government, through

770
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 2: Prime Minister David Cameron at the time, apologized to the

771
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 2: victim's families for the double injustice of the loss of

772
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 2: life and the blame that was put on Liverpool fans.

773
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 2: So at least they had that kernel of something. Yeah, Solace,

774
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 2: maybe Salace, thank you a quantum of it.

775
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 3: If you want to know more, you're just throwing around

776
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 3: British pop culture references. Who knew that James Bond and

777
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 3: Austin Powers were going to make an appearance.

778
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 2: I'm going to start on my own sitcom called Suddenly

779
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 2: Angle File, but it's gonna be spelled like that. I

780
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 2: just Mangled Anglo file.

781
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, or black Adder, that's another good title.

782
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 2: Sure, since Chuck made a joke about Blackadder has foretold

783
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight, it's time for listener mail.

784
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 3: I'm going to call this. I screwed up on that

785
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 3: Van Go episode about the movie. Hey, guys, just finished

786
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 3: the Visa Bango episode. Want to let you know the

787
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 3: movie with Willem Dafoe is called at Eternity's Gate. This

788
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 3: is something I remember now but I forgot at the time.

789
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 3: You mustn't have seen it. But we're aware of it.

790
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 3: More importantly, you must see Loving Vincent, and I think

791
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 3: that's what I said.

792
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 4: It was called.

793
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 3: That's the movie that's animated using sixty five thousand paintings

794
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 3: done in the style of Ago by one hundred Polish painters.

795
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 2: Wow.

796
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 3: It's visually amazing and incredibly well done. And the soundtrack

797
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,439
Speaker 3: includes the song from Don McClean. I think we talked

798
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 3: about it in the episode of Vincent Storry Storry Night

799
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 3: beautifully compliments the movie highly recommended. My wife and are

800
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 3: huge fans of the show. Have been listening to every

801
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 3: episode since almost the beginning. Keep up the amazing work

802
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 3: and don't let those naysayers who complain about your sidebars.

803
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 3: That's one of the things we enjoy most. And that

804
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 3: is from Brian and Alexis in Bethlehem, PA.

805
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 2: Nice Thanks Brian and Alexis. We appreciate that, Chuck. Since

806
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 2: you stepped up and took a correction, I feel like

807
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:16,760
Speaker 2: I should admit to one. Okay, in are Lamon's short stuff,

808
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,479
Speaker 2: you mean Lamon, that's part of it. The bigger part

809
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 2: is that I said Greece is an island. I even

810
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 2: went back and double checked, and everybody's right. It is

811
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 2: not an island at all.

812
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 3: I didn't catch you saying that.

813
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 2: So it's like Germany being landlocked. Now my geography skills

814
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 2: are starting to match up with my math skills.

815
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:38,760
Speaker 3: I wish I would have caught that, because I remember

816
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 3: very distinctly that you could take a train there.

817
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 2: Well, in the episode, you said, yeah, yeah, it sure

818
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 2: is an island. I swear to God it's an island.

819
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:47,359
Speaker 4: Josh, that's right.

820
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 3: I doubled down verbatim.

821
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 2: All right, Well, thanks to Brian and Alexis. And if

822
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 2: you want to be like Brian and Alexis, you can

823
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 2: get in touch with this too via email at Stuff.

824
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 1: Podcast That I Heard, Stuff You Should Know is a

825
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts myheart Radio, visit the

826
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

827
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: favorite shows. H