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Speaker 1: Operation fish Bowl sounds less like a nuclear testing program

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Speaker 1: and more like something you'd win tickets to see and

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Speaker 1: see warholes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know which is more depressing.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to SNAFU, the show about history's greatest screw ups.

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Speaker 1: I'm Ed Helms and today we'll be covering Starfish Prime.

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Speaker 1: This was actually a royally nuclear screw up in our history.

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Speaker 1: I'm joined today by a dynamic duo. Both are talented artists,

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Speaker 1: combining skills of writing, directing, producing, and together they host

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Speaker 1: the critically acclaimed podcast What Went Wrong, which you guys

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Speaker 1: have self described as a biweekly podcast exploring movie making

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Speaker 1: mayhem behind your favorite films. Welcome to Snafu, Chris Winterbauer

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Speaker 1: and Lizzie Bassett.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you so much for having us at

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Speaker 2: Although we have since gone weekly, we will say now

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Speaker 2: we need to update our text clearly, and we are

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Speaker 2: just going to start off with just blowing your audience away.

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Speaker 2: They can have twice as much of us as they

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Speaker 2: thought they might get previously, so that's exciting.

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Speaker 1: Do not correct me on my own podcast. How are you?

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Speaker 1: What are you?

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Speaker 2: If? I? Yeah, a couple of mistakes.

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Speaker 1: We are just start off, did I say your name's Greg,

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Speaker 1: which that's actually an important thing to point out. You

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Speaker 1: guys have a really cool podcast. Tell us a little

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Speaker 1: bit about it, Lizzy.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, our each episode of our podcast dives into the

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Speaker 3: story behind a different movie, and the theory is sort

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Speaker 3: of that any movie is a miracle because of how

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Speaker 3: incredibly hard they are to make, even the bad ones.

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Speaker 3: And so we're just exploring, you know, the the absolute

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Speaker 3: manic mayhem behind movies, which you two both I think

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Speaker 3: know a lot more about from experience than I do.

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Speaker 2: I just want to research it. Yes, yes he does,

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Speaker 2: but I know, I'm sure you can appreciate, Like I'm

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Speaker 2: sure you would agree, Like nobody goes into a movie

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Speaker 2: hoping they're going to make a bad movie. Nobody wants

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Speaker 2: to make a bad movie. And in fact, sometimes you

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Speaker 2: think you're making a great movie and it just still

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Speaker 2: doesn't turn out very good. And sometimes you think you're

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Speaker 2: making a terrible movie and somehow it turns out great,

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Speaker 2: and so it's like it's I just want I remember

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Speaker 2: I used to be such an asshole when I would

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Speaker 2: watch movies and think I would have done this, so

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Speaker 2: I would have done that, And then I made a

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Speaker 2: movie and I hit my first test screening and there

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Speaker 2: was that asshole who said you should have done this,

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Speaker 2: and I said, you don't think I know that, sir,

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Speaker 2: right right, I couldn't. And so we hope that we

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Speaker 2: can get people to appreciate movies and the people that

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Speaker 2: make them that much more because they're just so hard.

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Speaker 2: They're so hard.

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Speaker 1: I love that in particular. I love how you're just

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Speaker 1: making such a great point about how humbling the movie

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Speaker 1: making experience is, and it does teach you to appreciate

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Speaker 1: movies in a different way. The more hours and days

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Speaker 1: and weeks and months that you've spent on set, the

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Speaker 1: more you realize, like this is incredible, the amount of

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Speaker 1: cooperation and collaboration and luck that it takes to pull

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Speaker 1: something together. It's just crazy that any movie actually gets made. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited to dig into today's story because it

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Speaker 1: feels like something out of a movie, or that should

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Speaker 1: become a movie. I'm sure screenwriters have been pulling details

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Speaker 1: from this event for plenty of doom worthy plots over

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Speaker 1: the years. Today's Snapfoo takes us deep into the paranoid

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Speaker 1: void of the Cold War, at the point where the

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Speaker 1: space race meets the arms race. So picture this. You're

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Speaker 1: on vacation in Hawaii. Maybe you're having dinner at a

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Speaker 1: beachfront bar in Waikiki. It's a warm July night in

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two. You're listening to a navy band play

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Speaker 1: some classy dance tunes when suddenly, as Esive flash lights

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Speaker 1: up the sky. The band goes quiet, A red glow

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Speaker 1: streaks across the sky like someone just opened a zipper

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Speaker 1: to hell. It's not Aliens, although that would be a

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Speaker 1: reasonable guess. This is America. Baby. That's right. We are

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Speaker 1: literally nuking space in this moment. Apparently, during the Cold War,

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Speaker 1: literally nothing was off the table.

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Speaker 2: Is this a Michael Bay movie.

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Speaker 1: It's nineteen sixty two. Cold War had pushed the US

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Speaker 1: and the Soviet Union into this intense arms race. It

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Speaker 1: turns out it extended far beyond Earth. So scientists were

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Speaker 1: asking really hard questions, like what happens if we set

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Speaker 1: off a nuclear bomb in outer space? Because obviously, if

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Speaker 1: you aren't sure of the answer, the safest and most

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Speaker 1: productive solution is just to do it and nuke it

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Speaker 1: and see what happens. Because that's science this, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's I guess it's like using our entire universe as

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Speaker 1: a guinea pig. Feels safe to me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, it's a closed system. Let's put some radiation

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Speaker 2: inside of it and see what happens. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: a we're gonna shake the snow globe with some uranium.

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Speaker 1: We're a resilient species, right, we can handle our own

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Speaker 1: our own fallout.

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Speaker 3: Is there a why here, like, is there a reason

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Speaker 3: why it would be advantageous to be able to nuke space?

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Speaker 1: It's a great question, Lizzie, and I think that the

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Speaker 1: answer is just the Cold War brought out terrible judgment

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Speaker 1: in especially in our sort of military weapons testing apparatus.

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Speaker 1: People got real excited about nuclear capabilities and just wanted

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Speaker 1: to see what they could do. And so of course

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Speaker 1: they just go way out over the middle of the

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Speaker 1: Pacific and just start setting off nuclear bombs. I think

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Speaker 1: they just wanted to see if this was would be

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Speaker 1: an effective weapon. It turns out it kind of is,

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Speaker 1: but in a way that no one quite expected.

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Speaker 2: So and at this time, too, we're detonating I mean,

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Speaker 2: I believe we've detonated nukes underwater. We've detonated them underground,

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Speaker 2: We've detonated them at varying altitudes above a theoretical populated area.

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Speaker 2: It's like, what is the maximal effect that we can

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Speaker 2: create by detonating them in these various ways.

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Speaker 1: And just logically it seems like the higher you go,

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Speaker 1: the greater the impact to Earth.

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Speaker 2: Certainly in terms of fallout, right you would.

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Speaker 1: Expect, and so it just seems the higher you go,

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Speaker 1: the dumber the experiment. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so like the least effective potentially at what you're

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Speaker 3: trying to do. Like, if this is ideally something targeted,

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Speaker 3: the higher you go, the wider swath it covers.

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Speaker 1: Right, That's the logic, and that's why they did it

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Speaker 1: out over the Pacific without a lot of expectation or knowledge.

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Speaker 1: For knowledge about what could happen turns out a lot.

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Speaker 1: So Ever, since World War Two, the US and the

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Speaker 1: Soviet Union had been on again, off again testing nukes,

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Speaker 1: and in the late fifties, the Soviets had decided tests

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Speaker 1: were very much back on. In response, the US launched

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Speaker 1: Operation fish Bowl. It was a series of high altitude

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Speaker 1: nuclear tests using thor missiles. Fish Bowl was part of

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Speaker 1: a larger project which involved thirty six nuclear detonations in

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Speaker 1: the Pacific all done in nineteen sixty two. Alone, fish

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Speaker 1: Bowl launches had their own maritime themed code names bluegill, Starfish, kingfish,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. Very creative, right, Also, like, I.

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Speaker 2: Love how anodyne they sound, right, right, It's very innocuous.

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Speaker 2: This is not a big starfish, jellyfish, clownfish, nuclear megalodons

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Speaker 2: swallows your entire world. You know, let's not give it

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Speaker 2: a scary name as we're doing this thing.

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Speaker 1: No, you're right, Yeah, Operation fish Bowl sounds less like

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Speaker 1: a nuclear testing program and more like something you'd win

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Speaker 1: tickets to see at World.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know, it's just more depressing.

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Speaker 1: But yes, I'm curious if this is conjuring any Cold

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Speaker 1: war movies for you guys, Do you have a favorite

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Speaker 1: cold war movie that's sort of nuclear oriented.

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Speaker 2: The China Syndrome always comes to mind as a favorite

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Speaker 2: of mine.

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Speaker 1: That coffee cup, the little the trimmers in the cough

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Speaker 1: in the right, that's where you first see it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's about that that theoretical China syndrome.

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Speaker 2: A nuclear meltown could go through the core of the

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Speaker 2: Earth to you know, the antipital point on the other

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Speaker 2: side of the planet. I always loved that one, and

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Speaker 2: then like War Games was always a big one for

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Speaker 2: me growing up. Luzzie. I'm not sure if there any

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Speaker 2: that come to mind for you.

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Speaker 3: Definitely, I mean, you know, immediately as soon as you

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Speaker 3: were starting to explain the sort of like race to

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Speaker 3: blow up more and more and bigger and bigger nukes,

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Speaker 3: it immediately makes me think of the Doomsday Machine and

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Speaker 3: Doctor Strangelove of course, and and just you know, the

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Speaker 3: whole concept there being that you needed to explain the

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Speaker 3: existence of the doomsday machine in order for it to

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Speaker 3: be effective, but they didn't do that, they just built it.

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Speaker 3: And I love the sort of you know, you're ten

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Speaker 3: steps ahead and yet also fifteen steps behind on that

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Speaker 3: one that feels applicable. And then I just always it's

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Speaker 3: not a movie, but man, I loved the Americans. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: this show is so good and such an interesting exploration

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Speaker 3: of the mentality behind both the American and Russian sides

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Speaker 3: of the Cold War.

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Speaker 2: And it's interesting way you're describing is very much the

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Speaker 2: It is the climax spoilers of the Iron Giant, which

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Speaker 2: the movie ends with the nuclear device being detonated in

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Speaker 2: space because the Iron Giant as I wept flies up

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Speaker 2: to meet it and sacrifice himself to protect humans. And

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Speaker 2: that movie is very much about like could a weapon

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Speaker 2: decide that it didn't want to be a weapon, which

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Speaker 2: is a really interesting concept when you have all of

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Speaker 2: these incredible nuclear technologies that could be used for energy

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Speaker 2: and were being used to greater and greater explosive effect.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, that got deep. Sorry, well, no, it was.

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Speaker 3: The Iron Giant. It's a great movie. Lizzy disagrees it is.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't a great movie. I just didn't shed a

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Speaker 3: single tear, so maybe I have no soul.

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Speaker 1: I'm cutting your feed, Lizzie, I'm cutting your feet. This

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Speaker 1: to me is very war Games also the one that

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Speaker 1: you brought up, And I think mainly that movie was

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Speaker 1: such a big deal to me as a kid. I

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Speaker 1: saw it on HBO, like over and over and over again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and like, are these men exploring the frontiers of

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Speaker 2: science or are these little boys playing very dangerous games?

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Speaker 2: Like By putting it in that context, it really draws

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Speaker 2: a really stark juxtaposition that's interesting and I think forces

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Speaker 2: some compelling thoughts from the audience. I still think that

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Speaker 2: movie is really effective to this day.

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Speaker 1: Let's get into Operation fish Bowl. On June second, the

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Speaker 1: first attempt at a high altitude test failed when the

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Speaker 1: tracking system lost the missile after it fired. The Navy

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Speaker 1: scrambled to destroy it before it could nate. Thank god

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Speaker 1: they did. In the second test, the thor missile malfunctioned

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Speaker 1: again and the warhead once again had to be destroyed

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Speaker 1: mid flight, showering the Pacific Ocean with plutonium contaminated confetti.

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Speaker 1: Apparently this led to special underwater ordnance disposal teams sweeping

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Speaker 1: the ocean for the next two weeks. It seems like

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Speaker 1: you should stop right like that. Maybe stop. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I'm getting into their heads. They're probably like, well,

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Speaker 1: we haven't learned the thing we set out.

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Speaker 3: To learn yet we have learned how to poison the

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Speaker 3: entire Pacific Ocean.

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Speaker 1: We've made a terrible mess or too, but we cleaned

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Speaker 1: it up.

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Speaker 2: There's all this sushi around we can eat. You know.

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Speaker 1: It turns out we have special underwater ordnance disposal teams

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Speaker 1: that we can dispatch at anytime.

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Speaker 2: So those are just those are those are just people

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Speaker 2: people with a fancy name.

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Speaker 1: But you're right, Lizzie, like, do you actually have that

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Speaker 1: or is that something you hastily scrambled again? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Was it just it's like a fishing net that you're

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Speaker 3: you know, casting wide across the ocean.

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Speaker 1: And then you just gave it a very official sounding name. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you were like in the army, what would be

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Speaker 1: your enthusiasm level for joining that cleanup crew if you're superior?

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Speaker 1: Was like guys put on your wet suits.

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Speaker 2: So low? But because but there has been such incredible

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Speaker 2: bravery from certain you know, the Fukushima event in Japan

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Speaker 2: and the individuals who like went in knowing they might

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Speaker 2: never they wouldn't survive, you know, to clean that up.

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Speaker 2: Or the divers in Chernobyl that went through the water

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Speaker 2: system and did survive, Like those people are you know,

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Speaker 2: heroes and those those things could have melted down even worse.

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Speaker 2: What's terrible about this in such like a catch twenty

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Speaker 2: two ways? The pointlessness, like you're saying, and there the

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Speaker 2: question is to what end are we even doing this

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Speaker 2: to begin with? And now I'm going to die for

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Speaker 2: my country for an ambiguous test that we're not sure

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Speaker 2: why we're doing at the end of the day. I

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Speaker 2: think that's the real tricky thing here. I would say no,

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Speaker 2: and I would be court martialed.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure. Does it call to mind any particular or

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Speaker 1: specific film set disasters.

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Speaker 3: It definitely makes me think of the Abyss, because I

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Speaker 3: believe they shot a lot of that inside of an

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Speaker 3: old nuclear reactor. That's what he filled with water in

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Speaker 3: order to get all of those underwater sequences. And because

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Speaker 3: it's James Cameron, he's like strapping concrete blocks to his

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Speaker 3: shoes and going underwater with a camera and you know,

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Speaker 3: punching his safety diver in the face because he can't

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Speaker 3: get up fast enough. And like it just that movie

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Speaker 3: sounded like such a nightmare to work on.

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Speaker 2: It also Reris, you know the end of Ghostbusters, like

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Speaker 2: all just the marshmallow everywhere, and then they're just like,

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Speaker 2: all right, let's clean it up, call it a day. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: All right. Well, so just to be clear, all of

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Speaker 1: these tests that are being conducted, they're not secret. The

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Speaker 1: Joint Task Force conducting the tests warned the public with

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Speaker 1: press releases on June twentieth. One Honolulu headline read quote

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Speaker 1: in blast tonight, maybe dazzling a good view likely in blast,

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Speaker 1: I guess everyone understood that would be a nuclear blast,

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Speaker 1: and for some reason they didn't want to say nuclear

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Speaker 1: in the headline. I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I can think of some reasons. Yeah, why you want

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Speaker 3: to spruce it up a little bit, let's say on

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Speaker 3: some ink on that one and blast.

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Speaker 1: It was even reported that the time was set for

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Speaker 1: eleven PM and that quote the white fireball is expected

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Speaker 1: to spread across the sky, changing colors as it grows.

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Speaker 1: I mean that sounds kind of festive.

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Speaker 2: I did I just get again, Let's give it a

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Speaker 2: positive spin, John Wayne, Let's go shoot the conqueror in

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Speaker 2: an old nuclear testing site and everybody is involved. A

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Speaker 2: lot of folks ended up getting cancer, and it's kind

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Speaker 2: of like a that's another Hollywood tragedy. We need to

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Speaker 2: cover it. At some point, there was not a lot

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Speaker 2: of understanding around the nuclear There's a radiation disposal site

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Speaker 2: that's not very well managed in the San Fernando Valley

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Speaker 2: over by Woodland Hills that I didn't know about until

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Speaker 2: I lived there briefly.

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Speaker 1: Spooky.

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Speaker 3: And what did they know about the effects of nuclear

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Speaker 3: testing like this at the time, Like, did they had

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Speaker 3: enough time passed since you know, they were actually detonating

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Speaker 3: these bombs that they understood the long term health effects

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Speaker 3: on people, or were they just kind of like, ah,

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Speaker 3: blow it up in the sky.

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Speaker 1: That's a great question. I mean, the first nuclear reactors

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Speaker 1: were built in the fifties, were in nineteen sixty two.

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Speaker 1: Now there is a lot still unknown. I covered another

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Speaker 1: nuclear disaster, a reactor melt down in Canada that Jimmy

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Speaker 1: Carter showed up to help fix when he was a

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Speaker 1: young soldier, and part of that story is how the

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Speaker 1: rescue mission to prevent the reactor from melting down. Their

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Speaker 1: judgment was clouded by how little they knew. And that

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Speaker 1: was just a few years before this. Obviously we're post

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Speaker 1: World War Two. You know, the horrible effects and fallout

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Speaker 1: from the Japanese detonations of hydrogen bombs were well known,

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Speaker 1: and the radiation fallout and so forth. But the specific

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Speaker 1: dangers at play, I think that they're sort of trying

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Speaker 1: to figure that out with these experiments. This is a

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Speaker 1: weird thing because they're putting these ads, and they're not ads.

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Speaker 1: They're putting the news in the newspaper and encouraging the

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Speaker 1: public to sort of like have fun with the spectacle

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Speaker 1: of unimaginable destructive power. It's almost like pull up a

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Speaker 1: lawn chair and just watch this, this horrible thing. And

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Speaker 1: I do think that part of that may have been

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a propaganda angle to just sort

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Speaker 1: of be like, hey, don't worry, it's not that big

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Speaker 1: a deal. But it's also it also reflects lack of

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Speaker 1: awareness about the actual dangers at play. So after these

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Speaker 1: early fireworks shows had failed twice, and naturally they tried again.

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Speaker 1: But this time they just wanted to go even bigger,

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Speaker 1: even higher, and even stronger. So the third test had

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Speaker 1: a new code name, and that is Starfish Prime. On

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Speaker 1: July ninth, at exactly eleven PM, a thor intermediate range

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Speaker 1: ballistic missile carrying a one point four megaton W forty

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Speaker 1: nine thermonuclear warhead launched from Johnston a Tall, a remote

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Speaker 1: island in the Pacific. It climbed two hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: miles into space and then detonated successfully. Now that's the

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Speaker 1: same altitude as the orbit of the International Space Station,

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Speaker 1: which I'm only telling it didn't exist at the time.

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Speaker 1: I'm just telling you for a sort of like a comparison.

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Speaker 3: Thought they were just firing wildly into the sky and

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Speaker 3: there's kind.

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Speaker 1: Of r but yeah, true for comparison, airplanes only fly

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Speaker 1: as high as six or eight eight miles into the atmosphere.

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Speaker 1: We're talking two hundred and fifty miles up here. So

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Speaker 1: there was no mushroom cloud, there's no shockwave, just a

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Speaker 1: burst of light so bright it could be seen eight

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Speaker 1: hundred seventy miles away in Hawaii. So they're not even

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Speaker 1: close to Hawaii. They are almost one thousand miles from Hawaii.

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Speaker 1: And yes, the expectant crowds were watching the sky, and

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Speaker 1: they got a heck of a show. One newspaper said.

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Speaker 1: After the first blinding flash, the spot was haload in

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Speaker 1: greenish yellow light, which spread out, turning pink and then

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Speaker 1: deep red. What followed was a swirling, glowing bubble of

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Speaker 1: plasma that distorted the Earth's magnetic field and carved a

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Speaker 1: temporary cavity in the ionosphere.

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Speaker 2: This sounds not no.

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Speaker 1: I mean, these are big words, and I don't know

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Speaker 1: if this is It's like, we'll get into the specifics,

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Speaker 1: but it did already soundscary.

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Speaker 2: Like you said, it's like we didn't have a great

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Speaker 2: understanding of how interconnected maybe our world is, and we're

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Speaker 2: about to enter things like the hole in the ozone

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Speaker 2: by the eighties and whatnot. And it is interesting. The

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Speaker 2: atmosphere is the only thing maintaining the life on our planet.

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Speaker 2: Let's poke a hole in it. Let's see what happens,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: The New York Times story the next day described it

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Speaker 1: as a luminous red rim around a fireball, created solid

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Speaker 1: walls of heavy color ranging from yellow oranges to deep

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Speaker 1: reds that's shimmered for a full fifteen minutes, split by

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Speaker 1: white lines that arched north and south parallel to one

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Speaker 1: another through the reddish glow. So what's happening here is

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Speaker 1: we essentially created an Aurora borealis. This is kind of

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Speaker 1: a fun nerdy film thing, I'm sure you know. One

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Speaker 1: of the complaints about the Star Wars movies, especially the

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Speaker 1: early movies, is the explosions in outer space are not

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Speaker 1: realistic because there's no oxygen in outer space, so you

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Speaker 1: can't have fire in outer space. And so how did these,

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Speaker 1: you know, big fiery explosions happen. Well, I was sort

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Speaker 1: of wondering the same thing here, So you might be

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Speaker 1: wondering why an explosion that high would still be so

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Speaker 1: bright and visible when there is no oxygen. The explosion

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Speaker 1: caused a massive burst of charged particles that collided with

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Speaker 1: atmospheric molecules, resulting in an aurora borealis. On top of that,

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Speaker 1: despite the lower oxygen levels, the explosion produced such intense

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Speaker 1: radiation that it excited the surrounding atmosphere, leading to the

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Speaker 1: bright light observed. Another writer called it the most spectacular

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Speaker 1: far flung effects of any man made event in history,

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Speaker 1: and I have to think he's probably right. That's quite accurate,

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Speaker 1: you know, if it's something seen a thousand miles away.

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Speaker 2: I think solar flares, I don't know if they were

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Speaker 2: well understood at this time, but I believe there was

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Speaker 2: a really big one recorded. I don't know if they

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Speaker 2: knew what it was at the time, back in the

378
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Speaker 2: nineteenth century, so this would have been like very pre

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Speaker 2: industrial revolution, pre electricity. What's interesting, I know we're going

380
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Speaker 2: to get to this is I think there's always this

381
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Speaker 2: big concern that an enormous solar flare could have the

382
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Speaker 2: same effects, like this enormous radiation event could disrupt electrical systems,

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Speaker 2: forss systems, etc. And so it is interesting. I'm just

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Speaker 2: curious if they knew, was there some thought, oh, is

385
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Speaker 2: this going to be like a solar flare. Does this

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Speaker 2: experiment confirm some hypothesis we had about you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean, so like a man made version of a

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Speaker 2: solar flare? Or is this really like let's put these

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Speaker 2: lizards in a jar and see what happens.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a very astute question. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure how much was understood about the effects of solar

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Speaker 1: flares on electrical components at the time, but it's it's

393
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Speaker 1: so much better understood now. That's a very cool question.

394
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Speaker 1: I'd kind of like to dig into that myself. This

395
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 1: created six full minutes of daylight in Hawaii in the

396
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Speaker 1: middle of the night. Oh so one navy dance band

397
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Speaker 1: playing at a beachfront hotel in Waikiki walked out of

398
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,879
Speaker 1: their gig to watch the night sky, joined by hotel waiters.

399
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Speaker 1: If you didn't know this was coming, or even if

400
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Speaker 1: you did know it was coming, and you're just like

401
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 1: on that beach in Waikiki and you walk out and

402
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 1: the sky just starts to glow these crazy colors.

403
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Speaker 3: I think it depends on like how it depends on

404
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,160
Speaker 3: how much propaganda they've been fed at this point about

405
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Speaker 3: the importance of nuclear power, and like how cool it

406
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Speaker 3: is that we've got it, because I do wonder about that.

407
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Speaker 3: I wonder if if this was like, yeah, I'm gonna

408
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Speaker 3: go sit out in my lawn chair and watch this,

409
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 3: like heck, yeah, get the commies, if people were excited,

410
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:57,199
Speaker 3: because if you don't totally understand the fallout literally and

411
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Speaker 3: figuratively of this, then it might not be a as alarming.

412
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Speaker 2: I mean, it would be weird, for sure, but it's

413
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Speaker 2: also so biblical, right, I could imagine somebody, let's say,

414
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Speaker 2: you don't know what it is. This is the Star

415
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Speaker 2: of Bethlehem times a billion in a sense, right, There's

416
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Speaker 2: something to me. Man has created an artificial sun, not

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Speaker 2: an artificial sun that exists in your living room, an

418
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Speaker 2: artificial sun that lights up half of the world right

419
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Speaker 2: at this point in time, and it feels apocalyptic, Promethean,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean. At the same time, I can't.

421
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Speaker 2: I just I literally cannot imagine because because I know

422
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,160
Speaker 2: what I know now, and I have never seen anything

423
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Speaker 2: like that before. And you know, there are certain things

424
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Speaker 2: I've seen when the La fires came through last year,

425
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Speaker 2: you know, the Eaton Canyon fire and whatnot, you know,

426
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 2: and seeing that up close and you see the power

427
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,199
Speaker 2: of this natural well it wasn't started naturally, but you

428
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,120
Speaker 2: see the power of fire as it rips through a

429
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 2: seemingly sturdy neighborhood, know, and it dwarfs a human right,

430
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 2: and it dwarfs our attempts to stop it. And then

431
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 2: you think about this, which is that with human growth

432
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 2: hormage hormone injected to it, you know, to an exponential level.

433
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Speaker 2: And I don't know, I could see somebody like weeping

434
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Speaker 2: about it. I could see somebody feeling utterly hopeless and lost.

435
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 2: I could, like Lizzie said, I could see somebody thinking, Wow,

436
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 2: we are going to dominate the like the American Empire

437
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,679
Speaker 2: is going to win. Ye, right, It would certainly warrant

438
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 2: a strong reaction, you know, in any given direction.

439
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 1: I'm also I'm just wondering about populations on some of

440
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: these remote oh yeah, archipelagos and just all around. That's true,

441
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 1: that were that never received any kind of notification and

442
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,360
Speaker 1: saw this stuff and just must have thought the end

443
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 1: of the world was happening.

444
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 2: It's a god arriving on our planet. It's like, how

445
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 2: else could you explain this sort of thing?

446
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: While it looked incredible, the shockwave of the explosion was,

447
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: as you might guess from a massive nuke, pretty devastating.

448
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: Almost immediately, the explosion triggered a powerful electro magnetic pulse,

449
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: which sent a power surge through the grid on O

450
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,959
Speaker 1: Wahuo Again, Hawaii is almost one thousand miles away, but

451
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,360
Speaker 1: the burst destroyed over three hundred street lights, tripped burglar alarms,

452
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: and fried the equipment of a telephone company. Here are

453
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: a few eyewitness accounts from the night, collected by the

454
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 1: Honolulu Star Advertiser. I love a newspaper that just calls

455
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 1: itself an advertiser. By the way, you know, we just

456
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: sell ads. We have news, but like mainly we just

457
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: sell ads.

458
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 2: YouTube should learn something from this fist exactly.

459
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: Anyway. Here are actual eyewitness accounts. One eleven year old

460
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: was asked what he thought. He said he was both

461
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,479
Speaker 1: scared and a little let down because he'd been waiting

462
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: to see a mushroom. He thought he'd see mushroom cloud

463
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: and I'm just like, kid, where are your parents? Another guy,

464
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 1: who honestly doesn't seem that different from the eleven year old,

465
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: said he had been following along with the news of

466
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 1: all the different failed tests, said he was actually a

467
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: little disappointed and that it didn't quite live up to

468
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: his expectations.

469
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 2: I mean, what I would love to see like the

470
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 2: Army General reading these reviews saying like, let's prep the

471
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: bigger bomb, let's do it. Let's show these assholes what

472
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 2: were capable of. You know, Well, that's what I mean.

473
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 3: They've been advertising this like this has been set up

474
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 3: for years at this point, not this specific thing, but

475
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 3: like the idea of nuclear power has become so ubiquitous

476
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 3: for these for an eleven year old that he's like, heck, yeah,

477
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 3: mushroom cloud. Can't wait to go outside eleven pm and

478
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 3: see it.

479
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 1: A reporter embedded with a naval observation team in American

480
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: Samoa said the men around him were cool as cukees.

481
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: Most quote, simply stood or sat quietly by their equipment

482
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: and watched it run, praying that it kept running. I

483
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: think they're talking about their equipment not being affected. It

484
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: was one of the earliest and most dramatic demonstrations of

485
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: how a high altitude debtonation could disrupt electric over vast distances. Chris,

486
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: this is the electromagnetic pulse which you brought up at

487
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: the beginning e MP as it's also known it was

488
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: a warning in bright neon lights about the fragility of

489
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: our growing technological infrastructure. Does the EMP make an appearance

490
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: in cinema?

491
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,479
Speaker 2: Matrix is the most the matrix thing.

492
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: They use EMPs to fight the the squitties, the machines.

493
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 2: Right, of course, there is the book. There's a book,

494
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 2: I don't know how well known it's called. It's called

495
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 2: One Second After, and it's written by somebody who's long

496
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 2: try it wanted to warn you know, our government about

497
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 2: the effects of an EMP, specifically I believe detonated somewhere

498
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 2: over Kansas, roughly central to the United States, which would

499
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 2: effectively black out most of the country and a lot

500
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 2: of things that people, you know, unless your equipment is

501
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 2: very specifically hardened or pre dates something, or is like

502
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 2: in a Faraday box or whatever, it's gone. I mean,

503
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 2: planes are going down, cell phones don't work. And by

504
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 2: the way, it's like you said, ed, it's fried. They

505
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 2: cannot be rebooted, they cannot be restarted. No, this is

506
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 2: not you know, blowing the cartridge. Put the Nintendo sixty

507
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 2: four back on. It's done this again. This is my

508
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 2: understanding when I read this book, and that is a

509
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 2: much more terrifying outcome when you really think about it,

510
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,199
Speaker 2: than a detonation, you know, slightly above the surface in

511
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 2: like Chicago, for example, which is the premise of House

512
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 2: of Dynamite which just came out, you know, the Catherine

513
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 2: Bigelow film. Because ultimately you see the fragility of our

514
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 2: entire system, which is based on electronic infrastructure. You know,

515
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 2: not only is our power grade, all of our information systems.

516
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 2: We really don't have, you know, paper based information system

517
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 2: backups for most things at this point in time. Of course,

518
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: everything would fall apart. You know, your food system, your

519
00:28:54,800 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: refrigeration systems, your medical systems, your utility systems. You'd be

520
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 2: back to the stone age. This is a little This

521
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 2: is Blade Runner too, right, that there was I believe

522
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: a nuclear setback in or something like that. There was

523
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 2: an information dark age in Blade round twenty forty nine

524
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 2: that they reference. Yeah, and they're back to paper, yes,

525
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 2: as a protective measure. And I think I believe in

526
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: Dune this is I'm going to get this wrong. Somebody

527
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 2: in your audience corrects me. I think Frank Kerbert, the

528
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: way he describes their technology in Dune is like a

529
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 2: different technological branch than the computerized systems that we used.

530
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's because of any sort of

531
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 2: reference to EMPs et cetera, but it's just again, it's

532
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 2: an example of a different way of you know, creating

533
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 2: information systems than what we've relied on.

534
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: It's wild to think about. It would set us back

535
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: to roughly what like eighteen fifty.

536
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 2: I would think earlierlier, because we don't have any of

537
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 2: the skills that folks had.

538
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: Oh, broadly speaking, that's a that's a great point. So

539
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: we don't have we have to relearn all.

540
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 2: The all of our you'd be going back pre agricultural

541
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 2: you know, revolution. I think you'd be going basically back

542
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 2: to hunter gatherer. In a lot of senses, you'd have.

543
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 2: It's funny how you realize how surface your knowledge really is.

544
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 2: I could tell you that I vaguely understand solar flares.

545
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: If anything goes wrong with any piece of equipment in

546
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 2: my life, I could not diagnose it right right in

547
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 2: order to take it to the geek squad. And they

548
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 2: only know how to you know, do X, Y or

549
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 2: Z things. And it's we've that's been the benefit of specialization, right,

550
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 2: is that you can make advancements on these specific tech trees,

551
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: but you're very vulnerable if it's disrupted. Yeah, that's why

552
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,479
Speaker 2: we should all go to trade school.

553
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah, Also this is why e MPs are also

554
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: a big deal in the survivalist community because yeah, that

555
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: there there's a lot of obsession about, as you mentioned

556
00:30:52,840 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: Faraday cage protection, having vehicles that are that use no electronics.

557
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 2: All the push to start cars with computer chips. I mean,

558
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 2: like I think the average vehicle has dozens of computer

559
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 2: chips in Yeah.

560
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 3: By now, oh yeah, what could you even get something

561
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 3: from like the early nineties and before.

562
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: Yes, you'd have to go back to like a purely

563
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: even the ignition has to be mechanical and not electrical.

564
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: So it's a yeah, it's a wild and yeah, you're

565
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: going back to the seventies.

566
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: I worked with a gentleman when I was at Intel

567
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 2: years ago who was kind of a Mormon prepper, and

568
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 2: he had a homestead out in Arizona, and he, aside

569
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: from a wall of guns and a wall of flashlights,

570
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 2: he also had a tractor that I believe ran on

571
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 2: like it was a wood burning engine that like a

572
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 2: steam engine effectively. Yeah, and that was you. Actually, I

573
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 2: believe can see a version of it in the movie

574
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: Train Dreams, which I also highly recommend. But anyway, he

575
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 2: was a hardcore prepper and that was he had all

576
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: of these redundancies that did not require any electricity.

577
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, that's cool. Do you have his number?

578
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 2: Uh? You know he didn't give it out to anybody.

579
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 1: I don't know why.

580
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 2: He just didn't want to showing up at his squad

581
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 2: the coordinates of that du what are your skills? And

582
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 2: I was like, I can craft a tight ninety minute podcasts, sir,

583
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 2: would you let me in?

584
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: So the EMP waxing the power grid was bad enough,

585
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: but the long term effects were worse. So the military

586
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: had made sure that all the satellites orbiting Earth in

587
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two were safely out of range of the blast.

588
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: So we're good, right, Well, no, not quite, because not

589
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: only was the initial EMP blast way larger than expected.

590
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: I love that, by the way, they just didn't know

591
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: how big the explosion would be. The detonation also launched

592
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: high energy particles into Earth's magnetic field. It created an

593
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: artificial radiation belt that spread out from the spot. We

594
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: knewked and it definitely was not harmless. It became a

595
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: wave of radiation that caused extensive damage to satellites American, Canadian, British,

596
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: and even one Russian satellite, including the first ever satellite

597
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: to broadcast a TV signal, Telstar one. So that satellites

598
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: run in with the new Starfish radiation belt made it

599
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,239
Speaker 1: just the first victim. The charged particles lasted in our

600
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: atmosphere for at least ten years, zapping satellites that passed

601
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: through it and damaging fully a third of all satellites

602
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: around the Earth in nineteen sixty two. I had was

603
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: not familiar with the story before a few months ago

604
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: and was floored by this. Yeah, it just feels like

605
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: the sort of scientific approach to this kind of experimentation

606
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: is what a child brings to a bug, And it's

607
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: like what happens if I smash it with a hammer,

608
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: Like what, let me just see? And it's just it's

609
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: kind of weirdly heartless and thoughtless, but it's like the

610
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: curiosity is so powerful or something.

611
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is strange because you know, we've talked about

612
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 3: this quite a lot across this episode, but like, no,

613
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 3: they may not have known the exact effects of this

614
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 3: clearly they didn't know that a lot of this was

615
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 3: going to happen. But I feel like for sure they

616
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 3: knew enough in terms of how powerful these things were

617
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 3: that they should have been more careful than just that

618
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 3: just shoot, shut it up, there, try it again three times.

619
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 2: There are times of.

620
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,760
Speaker 3: The charm like, yeah, that kind of recklessness with something

621
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 3: this powerful does feel crazy, like like it feels like

622
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 3: there was some level of like mess psychosis happening in

623
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 3: terms of the arms race, or people were just like.

624
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 2: Yep, good, yep, good plan, go right ahead. I think

625
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 2: what makes it feel militaristic and not and candidly like

626
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 2: unscientific is the lack of a hypothesis. And I don't

627
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 2: know about this story. I had never heard this either.

628
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 2: Ed like you said, Instead, it's more, well, maybe this

629
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 2: will do something, and we should probably know what that

630
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 2: is in case the Russians also try it. It's a

631
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 2: fear based result as opposed to some sort of aspirational

632
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 2: optimistic you know, let's push the frontier of human knowledge

633
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 2: forward in a way that could possibly be beneficial for humanity.

634
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: Wild One Navy sailor who told his story was on

635
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 1: board a ship near the launch site. And so obviously

636
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: a lot closer than Hawaii. He said. The crew were

637
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: given badges to measure their radiation exposure and ordered to

638
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 1: do anti radiation washes off the ship. Years later, he

639
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: said most of the men he served with on board

640
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: had died of quote weird cancers, which is horrible. The

641
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: EMP blast that knocked out electronics in Hawaii created a

642
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: wave of studies about how an electromagnetic pulse could disable

643
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: electronic systems, from civilian infrastructure to military systems. It was

644
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: a big moment in realizing that frying power grids with

645
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: distant explosions might be a useful trick we hadn't thought

646
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 1: about before, and also just another thing to be terrified of.

647
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 1: On top of all the EMP fallout, there's the orbiting radiation.

648
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: Not only did the radiation from the explosion slap satellites

649
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: out of orbit, but it also disrupted Earth's natural zones

650
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: of trapped charged particles, called the Van Allen belts. Now

651
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: that definitely sounds like a luxury leather imporium, but these

652
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: belts are like a protective shield around the planet, and

653
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: altering them created a serious risk for future satellites and

654
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:51,919
Speaker 1: astronauts that September, NASA changed their flight plans because they

655
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: realized that their astronaut would be killed by residual starfish

656
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: prime radiation if he flew over six hundred and forty

657
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 1: ko in altitude. So, uh wow, how wild is that

658
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 1: he had flown through that radiation? It just would have

659
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:08,479
Speaker 1: I mean.

660
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: Well, and also, like spaceships are hardened against radiation, right,

661
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 2: because when you break through our atmosphere, you're exposed to

662
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 2: all the radiation from the Sun. That is a lot

663
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 2: of it is blocked or deflected right by our atmosphere.

664
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 2: So then you think about this astronaut who's in a

665
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 2: radiation hardened to a certain extent environment, right, would still

666
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 2: be killed by this amount of excess radiation scent, you know,

667
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 2: lingering in our atmosphere in this moment. It's just it's

668
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 2: not even that he's like naked out there, you know

669
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 2: what I mean, getting hit with this thing. It's just crazy.

670
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: Obviously, this wasn't just a local issue over a particular

671
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,439
Speaker 1: spot in the Pacific Ocean. It affected the entire near

672
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 1: earth environment. The artificial radiation belt slowly faded, but the

673
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: lesson lingered. Detonating nuclear weapons in space had consequences we

674
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,720
Speaker 1: didn't understand at the time. Nations around the world, especially

675
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union, were watching. Of course, Russian radio called

676
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 1: the test a crime perpetrated by quote American atom maniacs.

677
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: I love that term. Sounds like animaniacs. Yeah, the automaniacs,

678
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: which the atom maniacs, which I think we kind of

679
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 1: live up to that. We're atom maniacs.

680
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 2: Ius say they're not wrong, No, they're either of those counts. Yeah.

681
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: But even taking all of this into consideration, the test

682
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: was considered a success. They were like, oh, wow, we

683
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: did so much damage we didn't expect, and we got

684
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,240
Speaker 1: so much useful data. Look at what we're learning.

685
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 2: All is a win. Let's check it up to a win.

686
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:44,720
Speaker 2: Take the win, guys.

687
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: In all, between nineteen fifty eight and nineteen sixty two,

688
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: there were eight known nuclear tests in space, four by

689
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: the US and four by the uss R. But Starfish

690
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 1: Prime was the highest, the most powerful, and the most consequential,

691
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:03,879
Speaker 1: and when usatellites started falling, President Kennedy canceled the next

692
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: high altitude test, which had been planned to go three

693
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: times higher.

694
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 2: No, you don't need to. You just don't need to.

695
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 3: I will be honest and I'm curious about what you

696
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 3: guys think about this, But I have absolutely zero desire

697
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 3: whatsoever to ever go to space.

698
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 2: Like I don't even understand what I'm desire. Other kids

699
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 2: wanted to be astronauts, and I said, I'm good here.

700
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 2: I just was never interest.

701
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: Even as a kid.

702
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 2: It terrified me. It always terrified me. The idea of

703
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 2: not having an exit is so scary to me.

704
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well that's clophobia. That's a whole separate thing.

705
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: Is that what it is? Well, because that's my issue.

706
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: I agree.

707
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 2: Space is like I'm the void. That's the point, exactly,

708
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 2: It's the void. It's that if I I'm okay in

709
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 2: a small space, if I know that there's stuff out

710
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 2: beyond my small space. But this idea that I'm just

711
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 2: out in a vacuum and not tethered to the only

712
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 2: habitable rock at this point in time is just existentially

713
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 2: crushing to me.

714
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,839
Speaker 1: So I mentioned that President Kennedy canceled the next high

715
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: altitude test. Turns out that was just a pause, because

716
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: they wound up doing at least a few more what

717
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 1: they considered successful high altitude tests later in nineteen sixty two. Ultimately,

718
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: these crazy high altitude tests, in combination with the Cuban

719
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 1: missile crisis, led to the nineteen sixty three Partial Test

720
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: Ban Treaty, which prohibited nuclear tests in space, underwater, and

721
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,320
Speaker 1: in the atmosphere, and in nineteen sixty seven the Outer

722
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: Space Treaty followed, banning weapons of mass destruction from Earth's

723
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: orbit and beyond. Because at the very least, nuking space

724
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 1: is a great way to get everyone to agree on

725
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 1: a few ground rules. That is our story. It's been

726
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: fun taking these diversions with you already, and all of

727
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: this to me, like, I feel like we've gone to

728
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: some sort of interesting philosophical places already, but I do

729
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 1: want to pick your brain just a little bit more

730
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: because the way that our governmental and military institutions approached

731
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 1: testing of this nature, to me, feels a lot like

732
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: the way that we are just lurching blindly into this

733
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: artificial intelligence era. And of course that also has reverberations

734
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: very directly to our business, our industry of filmmaking and television.

735
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: But in a larger sense, we don't know. We have

736
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,839
Speaker 1: so many warnings and so many people saying that this

737
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: could be so catastrophic, and yet it feels like we're

738
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: just not taking any steps to mitigate that danger in

739
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: the same way that they were just like, Hey, we

740
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: got to just do it and see what happens with

741
00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 1: these high altitude nuclear tests.

742
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,439
Speaker 3: Well, it's back to the Doctor Strangelove, because the whole

743
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 3: motivation to your point about AI is well, if we

744
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,319
Speaker 3: don't do it, someone else is going to do it.

745
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 3: And it's more important that you know, this incredibly powerful

746
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 3: technology is in our hands because we're the good guys

747
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 3: and we understand how to navigate this. And that's exactly

748
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 3: what Kubrick is making fun of with that movie, because

749
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 3: there's so much hubris involved in that thinking that you

750
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 3: can control what is essentially uncontrollable, but that is the

751
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:28,919
Speaker 3: path that we're all hurtling down.

752
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 2: Well, if I may my anti AI screed briefly, I

753
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 2: think the cynical difference with AI. It's being sold as

754
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 2: an existential conflict. And but what's interesting is that on

755
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 2: the one hand, you have somebody like samalt Man or

756
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 2: you know, the folks the CEOs of these companies are

757
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 2: Elon Musk, and they're saying this is going to be

758
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 2: universally beneficial in so many ways. It's not going to

759
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 2: replace your job. It's going to you know, right right?

760
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 2: This is I believe this is so much like an

761
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,439
Speaker 2: offshoot of their the Silicon value desire for transhumanism. Could

762
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 2: this be a stepping stone to uploading my brain? It's

763
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 2: effectively a group of men, candidly who are deeply uncomfortable

764
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 2: with the fact that they're going to die at some

765
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 2: point in time. And I think that the tragedy with

766
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 2: AI right now is there is very little actual evidence

767
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 2: that these tools make anybody more productive. You can look

768
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 2: at the evidence that's presented for coding tools like can

769
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 2: you generate a great deal of code? The answer is yes.

770
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 2: Is that code replicable, widely usable, bug free. No, it's

771
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 2: oftentimes created in a way that it doesn't make a

772
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 2: lot of sense for this specific application that you're using it,

773
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 2: and then it requires more time by the engineer to

774
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 2: debug and to defrag this thing that's been created. But

775
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 2: because it's been this incredible economic engine, we would be

776
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 2: in a recession right now if we're not for AI

777
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 2: investment like that is one hundred percent true, and as

778
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 2: a result, it is in the best interests of all

779
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 2: incumbent parties to pump this as much as possible, but

780
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 2: it's effectively just management selling it to management. These are

781
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 2: just the heads of these companies are saying to the

782
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 2: heads of other companies, your employees could be five times

783
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 2: more effective if they were using AI. But the truth is, again,

784
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 2: a lot of studies have shown if you use chat

785
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 2: shept frequently, cognitive abilities decline very rapidly. It turns out

786
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 2: when you stop thinking for yourself, it's harder for you

787
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 2: to think for yourself. And it turns out the brain

788
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 2: is a muscle, and it turns out that you actually

789
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 2: need to use it frequently. And I think the best

790
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 2: thing that a human has is like, you know, semantic

791
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 2: awareness and contextual understanding and judgment. The difference between the

792
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 2: nuclear tests, right, Yes, maybe a lot of people were radiated,

793
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 2: and our government has done a poor job of providing

794
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 2: recompense for the people who were affected by these you know, impacts.

795
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 2: But the difference is this nuclear bomb is being detonated

796
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 2: inside of every home and it's just insane that we're

797
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 2: not regulating this. I'm not saying there couldn't be good

798
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 2: aspects to this technology, but it's in incredibly powerful and

799
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,439
Speaker 2: destructive and we need to come up like you said,

800
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 2: d with some way of regulating it. But you know,

801
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 2: the marketing reasons of the world have convinced us that

802
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 2: that or Peter Thiel has convinced us that regulation is

803
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 2: literally the antichrist anti AI screed done.

804
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: I loved it.

805
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 2: I just find very frustrating.

806
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: My headphones are on fire. That was, Yeah, my ear

807
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: drums are burned, scorched, and I love it. I think

808
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: there's some really salient points in there, Chris, I appreciate

809
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 1: you going there. There's also within the AI which and

810
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: I think this is related to sort of nuclear research

811
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:44,720
Speaker 1: in a way. AI research and rapid development also has

812
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: this this almost like a supernatural component to it, where

813
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 1: there's this compulsion to be the first contact with this

814
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: sort of alien in the case of nuclear energy and

815
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: alien in energy source or something so h like hitherto

816
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: completely unknown to humanity, much like you you brought up

817
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 1: Prometheus earlier in that way that like Prometheus was like

818
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: that first touch of fire to man, and nuclear energy

819
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: was the same. And with AI, it's that first contact

820
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 1: with this this being that we're that we're creating that

821
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 1: that might be sort of bigger, grander, and more intelligent

822
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 1: than all of us that is so intoxicating that certain

823
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 1: people just cannot resist being that first, that one who

824
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: who's gonna get there first.

825
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:45,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

826
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 3: Well, I think it comes back to the same thing

827
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 3: about Chris, like you and I not really wanting to

828
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 3: go to space, and you were kind of asking like why,

829
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 3: And for me, the answer is that there's too much here,

830
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 3: Like there's there's so much unexplored here. There's so much

831
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 3: we don't understand here about people on Earth and everything

832
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 3: that I do not see the appeal necessarily of feeling

833
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 3: the need to go out and know what's out there.

834
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 3: I don't know that I need to know. And I

835
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 3: kind of feel the same way about AI. I don't

836
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 3: really need to know what it's capable of and what

837
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 3: it can do, and we don't know.

838
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 2: And I want to be clear, I do think it's

839
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 2: important in any society to have individuals who look at

840
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 2: the hill and say, I want to know what's on

841
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 2: the other side of that hill, because otherwise you become

842
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 2: stagnant and you don't move forward. But I do think

843
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 2: there is It cannot simply be a zero sum game

844
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 2: of reckless abandon as we, like you said, d rush

845
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 2: headlong into something we don't fully understand and simply point

846
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 2: at the stock market and say number go up.

847
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 1: We're good as we move forward. So well, I think

848
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 1: that's a great place to wrap it up. Thank you

849
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 1: so much Chris and Lizzie for joining me on Snapfoo.

850
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: This was a really fun and stimulating chat.

851
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having us. I'm about to

852
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 2: go dive into starfish prime and orbital nuclear explosions for

853
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 2: the last couple hours. I'm excited.

854
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 1: Feels like we maybe we have a movie on our hands.

855
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 2: I will say. The screenwriter and me thinks, great way

856
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 2: to get pesky cell phones out of a script. Yes, EMP,

857
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 2: because they are so annoying when you're writing a script,

858
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 2: because the questions. I was like, why won't they just

859
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 2: slick this up? Why won't they just call somebody.

860
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: Like comcause and I want them to be more like

861
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: but we're just going to start it with an.

862
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 2: Emp em perfect for each other.

863
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,399
Speaker 1: But then like, it's pretty much a straight romcom from

864
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 1: the eighties.

865
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 2: I'd watch it. Let's make it happen.

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Speaker 1: Me too, all right, guys, Well, thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Snafu is a production of Iheart's podcasts and Snafu Media,

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00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: a partnership between Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company.

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Speaker 1: Post production and creative support from good Egg Audio. Our

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00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:00,800
Speaker 1: executive producers are me ed Helm's, Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner,

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00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: Andy Kim, and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by

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00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: Alyssa Martino and Tory Smith. Our managing producer is Carl Nellis.

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00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 1: Our video editor is Jared Smith. Technical direction and engineering

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00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 1: from Nick Dooley. Additional story editing from Carl Nellis. Our

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00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 1: creative executive is Brett Harris. Logo and branding by Matt

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00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 1: Gosson and the Collected Works. Legal review from Dan Welsh,

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00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 1: Meghan Halson and Caroline Johnson. Special thanks to Isaac Dunham,

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00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: Adam Horn, Lane Klein, and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but

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00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: especially Will Pearson, Kerry Lieberman and Nikki Ator. While I

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00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 1: have you, don't forget to pick up a copy of

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00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: my book, Snaffoo, The Definitive Guide to History's Greatest screw Ups.

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00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: It's available now from any book retailer. Just go to

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00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: Snaffoo dashbook dot com. Thanks for listening, and see you

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Speaker 1: next week.