WEBVTT - Intersections of Faith and Queerness 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.960 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WOKF Daily with Meet 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:19.160 Your Girl Daniel Moody, recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:22.600 we are continuing with our series this week on Queer 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:28.440 the Vote and our partnership with the LGBTQ Task Force. 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:33.000 As I've mentioned, I had the opportunity to speak with 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:38.080 LGBTQ activists who live in battleground states while I was 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:42.159 at the Creating Change Conference last month in New Orleans, 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:46.080 and I am very excited to bring you those conversations 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:52.720 this week. Today, we're gonna listen to my interview with 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:57.160 Bishop Tanya Rawls, and I can't express to you how 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:01.920 much I love this conversation. I particularly really enjoy having 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:08.760 conversations with queer faith leaders because what the right has 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:19.000 done is they have essentially separated tried to separate the 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:26.880 queer community, the Democrats, progressives from religion right by saying 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:30.680 that we are godless, by saying that we are an abomination, 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:36.520 by using their Bible and using twisted words and rhetoric 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:42.320 as a way to disassociate us with faith. And that 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:45.440 couldn't be further from the truth. And so in this 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:50.960 conversation with Bishop Rawls, we talk about faith and being queer. 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:53.840 We talk about what it means to hold on to 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:58.680 faith in you know, times of darkness, and we get 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:03.960 into such, you know, an amazing conversation about freedom, about justice, 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.360 and about religion. And I really hope that you all 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:14.320 enjoyed this conversation. Coming up next, folks, I am very 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:18.440 excited to welcome to OOKF Daily Bishop Tanya Rawls, who's 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:22.359 a national faith leader and social justice advocate. She founded 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:26.600 the Unity Fellowship Church in Charlotte and Sacred Souls United 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:30.400 Church of Christ in Charlotte, North Carolina, and is founder 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:35.040 and executive director of the Freedom Center for Social Justice. 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:39.320 A lot of titles, a lot of good work. I 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:43.560 want to start off, Bishop Rawls with talking about the 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:51.639 way in which Democrats, the left, progressives have ceded religion 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:55.840 to the right. They've been able to claim religion, claim 0:02:56.000 --> 0:03:03.160 God right and around that claim, and what we've seen, 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:06.959 particularly over the last nine years on Namaga supremacy, which 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:10.480 is what I call Donald Trump's regime, is anything other 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:15.040 than godly. And I'm curious, from your perspective, as a 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:19.160 faith leader who is also progressive, who also is fighting 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:23.280 for social justice and freedoms, why do you think that 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:25.720 we've allowed them to claim faith. 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:32.639 It's a great question, I am. I have been fighting 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:38.800 at the intersection of faith and race, social justice, sexual orientation, 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:43.960 and gender identity for many years, and that intersection is 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:47.600 an important one because it's one that I feel we 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:52.600 at the left did walk away from because of the 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.520 sense that faith was not going to be that important. 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:59.880 I think in order to really understand the depth of 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:04.760 all of this, the depth of all of this, one 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:10.560 would have to understand where the religious right anchored their base, 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:13.960 and that was in the South. And so I think 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:18.280 many on the left before it was you know, after 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:22.000 it was late, said oh yeah, the South is going 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:25.720 to be important. Oh yeah, we do have to engage 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:31.240 with some of these approaches people are taking to using 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:35.160 faith as a negative tool instead of positive. There was 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:39.360 a deep seated strategy that was pulled together by the right, 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:42.440 and the very fact that we even use that word 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:46.920 the right, it was intentionally selected. So if you think 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:50.960 about words like the right, the moral majority, all of 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:58.520 this language that supposedly centers core Christian Christian principles, in reality, 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:03.640 it was all part of a long game strategy to 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.320 impact the hearts and minds and spirits of those who 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:11.000 would be likely to vote for the right, and to 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:15.000 make it seem like that those that do that are 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:19.360 the most moral. That's the moral majority. We're the majority, 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:23.600 the moral majority. The other thing I think that got 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:29.360 complicated was when activists really had, at some point, not all, 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.800 but many, made a decision that we did not need 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:38.240 the church to win. We don't need faith to win. 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:43.840 We need good policies, we need strategies that move politicians. 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.440 We need those things. But what they left behind was 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:53.680 the voters right. So we as much as she is complicated, 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:57.960 the church still has power and a lot of it. 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:03.159 Communities have power and a lot of it. What I 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:07.159 think we on the left are grappling with is what 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:10.720 to do with that. But we're pretty far down the 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:15.479 road now and we're trying hard to And what the 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.200 we that I'm talking about now is the broader progressive 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:22.159 movement now owning Oh my goodness, Yes, faith is a 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:24.840 piece and it isn't about It isn't about the quote 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:27.640 unquote church. It is and this is the thing that 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:33.400 people have to understand, It is about a mindset. I 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:40.000 had been baffled by two things recently. One is deep 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:46.000 concern about what's happening in Gaza, yes, and no understanding 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:48.880 about how any Christian person who claims to be Christian 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:54.360 could support that behavior, could support that genocide in those atrocities, 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:58.719 and people are doing it based on old Testament texts 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.920 to suggest that the occupier has a right to somebody 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:09.400 else's land. The other thing that has been troubling is 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:13.280 the huge drop off or rejection that many of our 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:17.720 younger people are having in throwing. And I can't even 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:22.440 say younger now anymore, because the churches have problems. Communities 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:28.200 of faith have had problems, and so to say to 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:35.440 the movable middle, believe in the church, believe in democracy. 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:38.080 I have young people now who are telling me they 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:44.600 considered voting Republican people that I would have never considered 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:47.960 the thought of thinking about it that way. What's most 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:52.160 troubling is while faith got a lot of people, got 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:56.320 the right, a lot of capital, what it also did 0:07:56.600 --> 0:08:01.400 was on the left I think really caused a break 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:05.120 in our movement, because you have people that feel that 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:07.840 faith is important in others who say, I reject all 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:10.400 of it. And so the thing the wright did was 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:14.280 they never lost lockstep with each other there is no 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:20.040 grappling someone I heard a post that was so good 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:23.960 yesterday actually, and it was someone It was a commentator 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:29.280 who said, the reason that people are voting for Donald 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:35.160 Trump this time and are backing him and the fact 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:39.840 that his popularity is growing with each indictment, They said, 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:44.000 it's because, fundamentally, and this was a conservative talking fundamentally, 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:46.600 we do not believe he lost, and many of us 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:48.240 believe he deserves a second chance. 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:54.040 The thing that gets me, as of the time of 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:58.160 this recording, we had the Iowa Caucuses and you know 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:01.880 now the clown cars says moved on to New Hampshire. 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:07.800 But on cable News they interviewed a Iowa caucus voter, 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:15.040 a white male, CIS evangelical, self identified evangelical voter, who said, 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:23.120 Bishop God uses interesting tools and Donald Trump is one 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:24.920 of those interesting tools. 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:31.959 And I my mouth a game, It's real. I just 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.120 don't I guess what I grapple with. 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:36.079 And there are two things I want to come back 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:39.600 to in what you just said, which is the fact 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:43.599 that there is a divide between those inside of the 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:48.319 very large democratic tent, those who are aligned with faith 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:50.959 in those that are not right, those that are just 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:54.679 aligned with facts and stats and policy and X, Y 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:58.160 and z, and they scoff at faith in a lot 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:02.760 of ways. But when I here a wide evangelical Christian 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:07.000 talk to me that a man that has been found 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:11.599 guilty of sexual assault, a man that is achieved that 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:16.240 is a liar, is an interesting tool of God. I 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:19.199 don't know where we meet those people, Bishop, I don't know. 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:21.880 And that's why I say thirty percent of the country 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:27.000 is gone because you can't meet that type of cult 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:34.439 like thinking with facts, because they are not answering to 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:35.640 the same set. 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:39.760 Of values, morals and reality that the rest of us are. 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:45.839 Yes, yes, the way that I when I'm speaking with 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:49.440 people and they bring that fact up. Did you ever 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:54.800 call Donald Trump your president? No? And was there anything 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:58.240 anybody could say to you that could cause you to 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:02.360 call Donald Trump your president? No? Okay did it? When? 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:06.720 Would you have wanted President Obama to have another term 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:12.280 possibly or somebody other than Trump to have Absolutely? All right, 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.559 So there was nothing anybody could say to you, because 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:22.199 fundamentally we felt the election was stolen. We felt that 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:30.439 he was at the very least a narcissist and possibly 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:34.040 a fascist or other things that I'm lord, I'm up 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:35.840 here just saying all this stuff is early in the morning. 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:42.160 But but what I will say is that has helped 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:47.840 me understand the Republican position because what no one could 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:51.120 say anything to many of us after we finished crying 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:56.640 that would allow us to cross that bridge to say 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:00.040 I'm willing to support this president. It was just I 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.000 think anybody can say to me, right, because I felt 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:06.640 it was stolen, they feel it was stolen. There is 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:08.599 nothing that supports that. We had a lot on the 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.960 left to support it. The fact that strange things happened 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:24.240 during Trump's first twenty sixteen that actually helped me for context. So, no, 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:26.760 the goal isn't to go for that thirty percent. They're 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:31.520 not going to move. However, what is important is that 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:35.640 we understand at the intersection that I opened with when 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:38.160 I said, you know, I work at the intersection of 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:41.880 faith and race, social justice, sexual entation, and gender identity 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:46.160 to look at culture shift. That's a different kind of work. 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:50.000 It's not transactional. It's not let's go talk to our 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:53.320 senator about this particular bill that's coming up or whatever, right, 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:58.520 And that's a strategy that I don't know we on 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.920 the left have been able to commit to as much 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:05.360 in terms of staying together with those who can work 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.120 with us to help move the needle. We're not going 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:10.959 to all agree on everything. I'm in the South, okay, 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:17.520 I'm in North Carolina specific we have had to really 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:21.679 learn how to and we don't definitely not have it locked, 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:24.480 but we have to learn how to work with people 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:29.560 that have fundamental differences on some levels but are solidly 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.160 and with us on others. And I think that's going 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:34.520 to be important, and which is why I'm happy in 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:36.600 terms of some of the things happening here at creating 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:39.400 change because there's opportunities for us to be together with 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:40.240 different minds. 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:49.640 What makes me concerned, I think bishop is a couple. 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:51.840 I mean, there's a lot of things that make me concerned, 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.040 but there are a couple of things as it pertains 0:13:54.160 --> 0:14:01.920 to faith, which is that as the times getting singly hard, 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:10.080 there is a turning to something else. Right because myself, 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:12.320 I can use myself as an example over the last 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.200 several years, I'm not a person that subscribes to any 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:18.439 organized religion, but I am a deep person of faith 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:25.200 and spiritual connection. And I wonder with the divide that 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:27.840 you mentioned that we do have inside of the Democratic 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.880 Party as we are seeing such atrocities and our human 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:36.440 brains are trying to reconcile. How how how do we 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:39.240 say that we're a country that stands up for democracy 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:42.160 but this is but Gaza and genocide is what we're 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:45.640 funding with our tax dollars. How do we have a 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:51.280 president currently that says that he believes in you know, 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:56.320 justice and equity and yet is not at all in 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:00.880 statements as it pertains to Gaza and Genese doesn't even 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:06.240 utter the word Palestinian. Right, So when we see these things, 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:11.040 I think that people in general humans struggle to make sense. 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:14.960 And so when we can't make sense, right, we search 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:18.160 for faith. And so how do you see that playing 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:23.520 into the next ten months of We have no idea 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.640 how long these wars, multiple wars are going to be 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:28.680 going on for. But what we do know is that 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:31.320 this is the first time that we're watching it in 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.960 real time. Yes, right, we're watching it in real time. 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:37.520 We're not waiting for it to be filtered through one 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:40.160 of a handful of news stations. We are watching it 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:43.560 with our own eyes on all of our devices. And 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:47.760 I'm just I know that it's far gone, as you said, 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:51.040 but it's just like, is there a way that we 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:58.920 reclaim faith and connection and our and coalesce around our 0:15:59.080 --> 0:15:59.960 common humanity. 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:05.480 Yeah, great point, and absolutely there is a power that 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:11.040 is emerging because of the environment we're in, a power 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:17.040 that is bigger than many of the fundamental belief systems 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:20.280 that many of us have stood in. America has never 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:22.920 experienced what we're experiencing now. And the other thing I 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:28.920 think that's important to to note is America democracy isn't 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:33.600 an experiment of sorts. In America, she really has never 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:40.479 accomplished it fully an experiment, and so as she emerges, 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:46.960 she being democracy. I don't like the word morality because 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:50.720 it is it has been bastardized at this point. It 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:58.960 is a word that is subjective and one that has 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:02.920 been so misuse used that it's actually almost toxic at 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:09.520 this point. So that said, we all have to imagine differently. 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:15.960 I don't trust the systems that we're supposed to be 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:20.960 built to make me safe. I'm a black out lesbian 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:27.680 woman cis gender. These systems weren't built for me. These 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:33.199 systems weren't designed for my people to thrive. And if 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:37.520 that's the case. Then what I'm excited about now, incredibly excited, 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:44.440 is the ways that many activists, faith leaders, regular people 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:47.120 walking down the street because of exactly what you said. 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:50.800 We're trying to find that place, but we're also finding 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.080 each other, those of us who are doing the grappling, 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:56.359 we are finding each other. So if I were to 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:59.440 use my faith talk, I would say spirit is drawing 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:02.959 us one to another. I was not aware of your 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.399 podcast until I came to Creating Change. I came to 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.000 Creating Change, so your podcast, and like, how do I 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:13.560 not know this woman? How am I not engaging with 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:19.159 her more deeply? That is happening globally? Actually right, and 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:24.480 if we understand a move like that, the transformation that 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:26.920 is going on and about to manifest in the next 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:29.080 ten months is going to be revolutionary. 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:32.960 There's a word that you said that I have been 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:42.320 meditating on imagination, which comes from a place of dreaming, 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:46.680 which comes, I think from a place of ease. And 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:50.159 what I'm fine, what I'm grappling with is the ability 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:54.560 for us to imagine a future that we have not seen. 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:59.840 When we are anchored with so much to despair and hopelessness, 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:05.760 how do we bishop get to a dream scape, to 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:10.320 an imagination scape that takes us out of the present 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:15.520 despair and hopelessness that, by the way right the MAGA 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:21.399 supremis are weaponizing. This is where I struggle and I am. 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:25.720 You know, the listeners of my shows, they witness me 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:28.639 go up and down and vacillate from we can do 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:31.119 it to don't bother me. I'm going to stay in 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:32.080 bed today. 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:36.440 Again. Another great point. We don't get out of it. 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:42.720 That's the that's the fantasy that somehow I'm going to 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:46.399 be able to put this down and then move on 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:51.159 to this other place. The thing that excites me in 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:59.359 this moment is I have other movements that inspire me. 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:05.520 I have other dreamers who did not necessarily get to 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:09.080 live to see their dream manifested and the fights that 0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:10.959 they were doing. I didn't have to. You know, when 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:13.639 I go and i'm talking truth to power, I'm not 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:17.440 worrying about somebody waiting outside to stab me in my stomach. 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:21.680 I'm not waiting for somebody to drag me to what 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:24.960 I've been dragged to jail. But you know not, But 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:27.720 but I'm not. I'm not. I don't. I don't have 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:30.280 the fear that a dog is going to attack me. 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:35.359 How did they dream? What? What did they have? What 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:41.040 did what? What made mallion Wright Edelson believe that she 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:45.680 could actually create a fund to defend children? What? What? 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:49.840 What in her history? Her background? They didn't have the 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:53.400 history we have to pull from. We've got elders still 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:56.360 alive who can help show a path. And I bring 0:20:56.440 --> 0:20:59.400 the word elder up because the other thing I think 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:03.159 that we have greatly lost is the power of what 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:07.400 comes through the words and experiences of our elders. Yeah, 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:13.320 they're light bearers. They hold lights. They help us to 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:15.840 buck up when we want to lay down and our 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:19.639 comfortable beds and say, my god, I worked for twelve 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:23.040 hours today fighting in justice. It's like, yeah, they would 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:25.440 have worked twelve hours fighting in justice and then clean 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:31.679 Moss's house or ironed Missy's clothes to feed their children 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:35.840 and still walk to work instead of catching the bus. Right. So, 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:42.800 I think we've gotten a little soft personally. Privilege will 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:46.240 do that, and if we are not able to own that, 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:50.119 it's going to be problematic. This is hard work. This 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:53.720 is work that requires sacrifice. This is work that requires 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:57.879 us to put ourselves out there and risk something and 0:21:58.000 --> 0:21:59.440 I don't know that a lot of people are willing 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.040 to risk I don't know that a lot of people 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:05.520 are willing to cross generational lines. I don't know if 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:09.280 you know how many are willing to cross lines to 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:15.160 trans people, to gay and queer people, to the disabled community. 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:19.800 But again, the spirit is moving and it is drawing us. 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:22.080 It's not for me to work with everybody. Yeah, but 0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:25.480 I can tell you when I do fine tribe, I 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:30.400 recognize tribe. I've met white tribe and I've met black folk. 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:33.400 It's so far not my tribe, you know what I'm saying. 0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:39.560 So the it's more complicated because back in the day 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:43.359 it was black and white. That's not our truth anymore. 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:47.080 So this is where imagination comes. We're having to now 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:50.400 think about ways to work with people we never thought 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:53.920 we'd even be in conversation with. We're having to grapple 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:57.399 with what it means to own our own biases. I 0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:00.320 have to push past some of my stuff. I have 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:02.399 to do. I got a good therapist, you know what 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:04.560 I'm saying. Because I want to note that too, because 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:07.600 to your point, and you've referenced the mind several times, 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:10.720 you don't do this stuff and not get damaged on 0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:13.000 some level, right, if you're not careful. 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:21.320 I appreciate so much that you just brought up therapy 0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:26.240 and mental health. I talk to people all the time. 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:28.320 I have a therapist that I've had for the last 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:31.080 several several years, and without her, I would not be 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:34.480 able to navigate and would not have grown and been 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:37.119 able to expand, to be able to carry some of 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:40.600 the things that have been put in our paths. And 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:43.560 you know, I want to ask you this last question, 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:49.040 which is for the hopeless, right, because I agree with you. 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:51.840 I think that in many ways we have gotten solved. 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:54.600 I think in many ways, like if I'm real with myself, 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:57.960 would I have been walking twenty miles to work? Probably 0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:02.520 not right in order to you know, see through a boycott, right, 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:06.560 Like I think that we have to meet ourselves and 0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:10.680 the moment where we are. But where I'm concerned is 0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:15.639 with this lingering sense of despair and hopelessness that seems 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:19.600 to be taking control and hold over every generation, over 0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:24.000 every group, so much so that I hear rumblings of 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:28.520 people saying, well, I am not going to vote. It's 0:24:28.600 --> 0:24:32.080 not this, you know, Biden is not aligned with my values. 0:24:32.280 --> 0:24:34.320 I am not going to do X, Y, and Z, 0:24:34.880 --> 0:24:38.480 and I'm thinking to myself, Oh, so you just want 0:24:38.520 --> 0:24:41.680 to be in the camp then, right, Like, what does 0:24:41.720 --> 0:24:44.680 this look like for you? So what do you say 0:24:44.760 --> 0:24:44.960 to that? 0:24:48.880 --> 0:24:53.359 People think one of the worst things in the world 0:24:53.480 --> 0:24:58.040 are the things that hatred produce. Right, hatred has produced 0:24:58.359 --> 0:25:04.280 horrific things, But personally, I believe there are very few 0:25:04.480 --> 0:25:14.639 things worse than hopelessness. When one loses hope, there is 0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:23.320 no energy to be much more than hopeless. And the 0:25:23.480 --> 0:25:27.960 very act of work or being called to work right 0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:34.480 is overwhelming. And so I think a couple of things 0:25:34.520 --> 0:25:38.680 in reference to this. One is creating increasing numbers of 0:25:38.760 --> 0:25:45.920 safe spaces where people can come and grapple together, increasing 0:25:46.040 --> 0:25:51.840 number of spaces that celebrate joy in a time when 0:25:51.920 --> 0:25:56.080 it is difficult. I have to do things intentionally to 0:25:56.240 --> 0:25:59.119 bring joy into my life because of the nature of 0:25:59.200 --> 0:26:05.399 my work. Right, I am clear that everybody somebody when 0:26:05.440 --> 0:26:08.040 they were talking about I'd heard someone say something negative 0:26:08.080 --> 0:26:11.200 one time about Al Sharpton, and I'm talking about I'm 0:26:11.200 --> 0:26:13.720 from New Jersey, from Northern Jersey, so I'm talking about 0:26:13.760 --> 0:26:16.560 Al Sharpton. That would be in the sweatsuit and curlis 0:26:16.640 --> 0:26:18.560 in his Hey, I'm talking about that Al Sharpton, okay, 0:26:19.240 --> 0:26:23.879 And they were comparing him to Jesse Jackson and saying 0:26:24.240 --> 0:26:28.280 how they felt kind of ashamed about the way that 0:26:29.240 --> 0:26:33.679 Al was showing up versus Jesse Jackson. And the best 0:26:34.160 --> 0:26:37.800 response I ever heard of that was someone saying, you 0:26:37.960 --> 0:26:39.760 don't wear a suit to go to the bottom of 0:26:39.800 --> 0:26:46.439 the barrel. And those who go down to the bottom 0:26:46.480 --> 0:26:50.440 of the barrel to stir up the dirt to reveal 0:26:50.640 --> 0:26:54.320 the stuff, the crud that's down there, they said, that's 0:26:54.400 --> 0:26:57.720 the work. That's OL's work, and he does it well. 0:26:58.800 --> 0:27:02.320 And they said, and we need Jess though, because by 0:27:02.359 --> 0:27:06.840 the time it gets to Jesse, Jesse skimming the residue 0:27:06.880 --> 0:27:11.480 off the top. Come on, And I'm saying, I'm giving 0:27:11.560 --> 0:27:13.920 that to say, you have the people who would have 0:27:14.000 --> 0:27:17.639 rejected Jesse and who would have rejected Al, but we 0:27:17.800 --> 0:27:22.200 needed Jesse and Al. And so if there are also 0:27:22.800 --> 0:27:27.359 increasing ways that we can validate more of the spectrum, 0:27:29.240 --> 0:27:33.720 and in our world now that has to also be multiracial, 0:27:34.160 --> 0:27:37.240 multi issue. You know, it was a little bit of 0:27:37.280 --> 0:27:39.080 a simpler time when all I had to do was 0:27:39.119 --> 0:27:43.280 fight against everything that's anti black. Well, I want to 0:27:43.320 --> 0:27:45.399 talk about the stuff this anti woman. I want to 0:27:45.440 --> 0:27:48.439 talk about the stuff that's anti choice for what happens 0:27:48.520 --> 0:27:52.320 to my body and women like me and everybody voting 0:27:52.400 --> 0:27:56.399 against that isn't my right to choose? Isn't somebody on 0:27:56.520 --> 0:27:59.959 the far right right? So this is where I talk 0:28:00.000 --> 0:28:02.680 talk about imagination. We have to be able to open 0:28:02.720 --> 0:28:05.480 our minds up more and know that there is a 0:28:05.640 --> 0:28:09.119 spectrum that we do not have a container for. We 0:28:09.240 --> 0:28:12.240 don't have the rights container, and I'm happy about that actually, 0:28:12.760 --> 0:28:15.000 but we do have to find a way of being 0:28:15.160 --> 0:28:21.320 able to harness the amazing power, the incredible strength, the 0:28:21.640 --> 0:28:26.600 resilience that is our community. And the hour I'm speaking 0:28:26.640 --> 0:28:31.280 about isn't even so much just progressive versus conservative, because 0:28:31.280 --> 0:28:34.560 there are conservatives that I do share some views with. Right. 0:28:34.880 --> 0:28:36.520 This is why we have to be so careful about 0:28:36.600 --> 0:28:39.280 how we do some things. But at the end of 0:28:39.360 --> 0:28:42.800 the day, we have to get unapologetic about being full 0:28:42.880 --> 0:28:45.440 throated in reference to the things we don't want, we 0:28:45.600 --> 0:28:50.960