1 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WOKF Daily with Meet 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: Your Girl Daniel Moody, recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 3 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: we are continuing with our series this week on Queer 4 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: the Vote and our partnership with the LGBTQ Task Force. 5 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: As I've mentioned, I had the opportunity to speak with 6 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: LGBTQ activists who live in battleground states while I was 7 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: at the Creating Change Conference last month in New Orleans, 8 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: and I am very excited to bring you those conversations 9 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: this week. Today, we're gonna listen to my interview with 10 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: Bishop Tanya Rawls, and I can't express to you how 11 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: much I love this conversation. I particularly really enjoy having 12 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: conversations with queer faith leaders because what the right has 13 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: done is they have essentially separated tried to separate the 14 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: queer community, the Democrats, progressives from religion right by saying 15 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 1: that we are godless, by saying that we are an abomination, 16 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: by using their Bible and using twisted words and rhetoric 17 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: as a way to disassociate us with faith. And that 18 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: couldn't be further from the truth. And so in this 19 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: conversation with Bishop Rawls, we talk about faith and being queer. 20 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: We talk about what it means to hold on to 21 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: faith in you know, times of darkness, and we get 22 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: into such, you know, an amazing conversation about freedom, about justice, 23 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: and about religion. And I really hope that you all 24 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: enjoyed this conversation. Coming up next, folks, I am very 25 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: excited to welcome to OOKF Daily Bishop Tanya Rawls, who's 26 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 1: a national faith leader and social justice advocate. She founded 27 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: the Unity Fellowship Church in Charlotte and Sacred Souls United 28 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: Church of Christ in Charlotte, North Carolina, and is founder 29 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: and executive director of the Freedom Center for Social Justice. 30 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: A lot of titles, a lot of good work. I 31 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: want to start off, Bishop Rawls with talking about the 32 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 1: way in which Democrats, the left, progressives have ceded religion 33 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: to the right. They've been able to claim religion, claim 34 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: God right and around that claim, and what we've seen, 35 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,959 Speaker 1: particularly over the last nine years on Namaga supremacy, which 36 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: is what I call Donald Trump's regime, is anything other 37 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: than godly. And I'm curious, from your perspective, as a 38 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: faith leader who is also progressive, who also is fighting 39 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: for social justice and freedoms, why do you think that 40 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: we've allowed them to claim faith. 41 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 2: It's a great question, I am. I have been fighting 42 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: at the intersection of faith and race, social justice, sexual orientation, 43 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 2: and gender identity for many years, and that intersection is 44 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 2: an important one because it's one that I feel we 45 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 2: at the left did walk away from because of the 46 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 2: sense that faith was not going to be that important. 47 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 2: I think in order to really understand the depth of 48 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 2: all of this, the depth of all of this, one 49 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 2: would have to understand where the religious right anchored their base, 50 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: and that was in the South. And so I think 51 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 2: many on the left before it was you know, after 52 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: it was late, said oh yeah, the South is going 53 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 2: to be important. Oh yeah, we do have to engage 54 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 2: with some of these approaches people are taking to using 55 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 2: faith as a negative tool instead of positive. There was 56 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 2: a deep seated strategy that was pulled together by the right, 57 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 2: and the very fact that we even use that word 58 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 2: the right, it was intentionally selected. So if you think 59 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: about words like the right, the moral majority, all of 60 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 2: this language that supposedly centers core Christian Christian principles, in reality, 61 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 2: it was all part of a long game strategy to 62 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 2: impact the hearts and minds and spirits of those who 63 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 2: would be likely to vote for the right, and to 64 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 2: make it seem like that those that do that are 65 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 2: the most moral. That's the moral majority. We're the majority, 66 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 2: the moral majority. The other thing I think that got 67 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 2: complicated was when activists really had, at some point, not all, 68 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 2: but many, made a decision that we did not need 69 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 2: the church to win. We don't need faith to win. 70 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 2: We need good policies, we need strategies that move politicians. 71 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: We need those things. But what they left behind was 72 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 2: the voters right. So we as much as she is complicated, 73 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 2: the church still has power and a lot of it. 74 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 2: Communities have power and a lot of it. What I 75 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 2: think we on the left are grappling with is what 76 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 2: to do with that. But we're pretty far down the 77 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 2: road now and we're trying hard to And what the 78 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 2: we that I'm talking about now is the broader progressive 79 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 2: movement now owning Oh my goodness, Yes, faith is a 80 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 2: piece and it isn't about It isn't about the quote 81 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 2: unquote church. It is and this is the thing that 82 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 2: people have to understand, It is about a mindset. I 83 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 2: had been baffled by two things recently. One is deep 84 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 2: concern about what's happening in Gaza, yes, and no understanding 85 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: about how any Christian person who claims to be Christian 86 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 2: could support that behavior, could support that genocide in those atrocities, 87 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 2: and people are doing it based on old Testament texts 88 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 2: to suggest that the occupier has a right to somebody 89 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 2: else's land. The other thing that has been troubling is 90 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: the huge drop off or rejection that many of our 91 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 2: younger people are having in throwing. And I can't even 92 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 2: say younger now anymore, because the churches have problems. Communities 93 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 2: of faith have had problems, and so to say to 94 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 2: the movable middle, believe in the church, believe in democracy. 95 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: I have young people now who are telling me they 96 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: considered voting Republican people that I would have never considered 97 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 2: the thought of thinking about it that way. What's most 98 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: troubling is while faith got a lot of people, got 99 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 2: the right, a lot of capital, what it also did 100 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 2: was on the left I think really caused a break 101 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 2: in our movement, because you have people that feel that 102 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: faith is important in others who say, I reject all 103 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 2: of it. And so the thing the wright did was 104 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 2: they never lost lockstep with each other there is no 105 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 2: grappling someone I heard a post that was so good 106 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 2: yesterday actually, and it was someone It was a commentator 107 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: who said, the reason that people are voting for Donald 108 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 2: Trump this time and are backing him and the fact 109 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 2: that his popularity is growing with each indictment, They said, 110 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 2: it's because, fundamentally, and this was a conservative talking fundamentally, 111 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 2: we do not believe he lost, and many of us 112 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 2: believe he deserves a second chance. 113 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: The thing that gets me, as of the time of 114 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: this recording, we had the Iowa Caucuses and you know 115 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: now the clown cars says moved on to New Hampshire. 116 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: But on cable News they interviewed a Iowa caucus voter, 117 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: a white male, CIS evangelical, self identified evangelical voter, who said, 118 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: Bishop God uses interesting tools and Donald Trump is one 119 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: of those interesting tools. 120 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 3: And I my mouth a game, It's real. I just 121 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 3: don't I guess what I grapple with. 122 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,079 Speaker 1: And there are two things I want to come back 123 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: to in what you just said, which is the fact 124 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,599 Speaker 1: that there is a divide between those inside of the 125 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 1: very large democratic tent, those who are aligned with faith 126 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 1: in those that are not right, those that are just 127 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: aligned with facts and stats and policy and X, Y 128 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: and z, and they scoff at faith in a lot 129 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: of ways. But when I here a wide evangelical Christian 130 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: talk to me that a man that has been found 131 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,599 Speaker 1: guilty of sexual assault, a man that is achieved that 132 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: is a liar, is an interesting tool of God. I 133 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,199 Speaker 1: don't know where we meet those people, Bishop, I don't know. 134 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: And that's why I say thirty percent of the country 135 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: is gone because you can't meet that type of cult 136 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 1: like thinking with facts, because they are not answering to 137 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: the same set. 138 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 3: Of values, morals and reality that the rest of us are. 139 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:45,839 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, the way that I when I'm speaking with 140 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 2: people and they bring that fact up. Did you ever 141 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 2: call Donald Trump your president? No? And was there anything 142 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 2: anybody could say to you that could cause you to 143 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 2: call Donald Trump your president? No? Okay did it? When? 144 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 2: Would you have wanted President Obama to have another term 145 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 2: possibly or somebody other than Trump to have Absolutely? All right, 146 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 2: So there was nothing anybody could say to you, because 147 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 2: fundamentally we felt the election was stolen. We felt that 148 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 2: he was at the very least a narcissist and possibly 149 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 2: a fascist or other things that I'm lord, I'm up 150 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 2: here just saying all this stuff is early in the morning. 151 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 2: But but what I will say is that has helped 152 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 2: me understand the Republican position because what no one could 153 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 2: say anything to many of us after we finished crying 154 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: that would allow us to cross that bridge to say 155 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,040 Speaker 2: I'm willing to support this president. It was just I 156 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 2: think anybody can say to me, right, because I felt 157 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 2: it was stolen, they feel it was stolen. There is 158 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:08,599 Speaker 2: nothing that supports that. We had a lot on the 159 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 2: left to support it. The fact that strange things happened 160 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 2: during Trump's first twenty sixteen that actually helped me for context. So, no, 161 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 2: the goal isn't to go for that thirty percent. They're 162 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 2: not going to move. However, what is important is that 163 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 2: we understand at the intersection that I opened with when 164 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 2: I said, you know, I work at the intersection of 165 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 2: faith and race, social justice, sexual entation, and gender identity 166 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 2: to look at culture shift. That's a different kind of work. 167 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 2: It's not transactional. It's not let's go talk to our 168 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 2: senator about this particular bill that's coming up or whatever, right, 169 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 2: And that's a strategy that I don't know we on 170 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 2: the left have been able to commit to as much 171 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 2: in terms of staying together with those who can work 172 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 2: with us to help move the needle. We're not going 173 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,959 Speaker 2: to all agree on everything. I'm in the South, okay, 174 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 2: I'm in North Carolina specific we have had to really 175 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 2: learn how to and we don't definitely not have it locked, 176 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 2: but we have to learn how to work with people 177 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 2: that have fundamental differences on some levels but are solidly 178 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 2: and with us on others. And I think that's going 179 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 2: to be important, and which is why I'm happy in 180 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 2: terms of some of the things happening here at creating 181 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 2: change because there's opportunities for us to be together with 182 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 2: different minds. 183 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: What makes me concerned, I think bishop is a couple. 184 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of things that make me concerned, 185 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: but there are a couple of things as it pertains 186 00:13:54,160 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: to faith, which is that as the times getting singly hard, 187 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: there is a turning to something else. Right because myself, 188 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: I can use myself as an example over the last 189 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: several years, I'm not a person that subscribes to any 190 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 1: organized religion, but I am a deep person of faith 191 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: and spiritual connection. And I wonder with the divide that 192 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: you mentioned that we do have inside of the Democratic 193 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: Party as we are seeing such atrocities and our human 194 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: brains are trying to reconcile. How how how do we 195 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: say that we're a country that stands up for democracy 196 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: but this is but Gaza and genocide is what we're 197 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: funding with our tax dollars. How do we have a 198 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: president currently that says that he believes in you know, 199 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: justice and equity and yet is not at all in 200 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: statements as it pertains to Gaza and Genese doesn't even 201 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: utter the word Palestinian. Right, So when we see these things, 202 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: I think that people in general humans struggle to make sense. 203 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: And so when we can't make sense, right, we search 204 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: for faith. And so how do you see that playing 205 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: into the next ten months of We have no idea 206 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: how long these wars, multiple wars are going to be 207 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: going on for. But what we do know is that 208 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: this is the first time that we're watching it in 209 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: real time. Yes, right, we're watching it in real time. 210 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: We're not waiting for it to be filtered through one 211 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: of a handful of news stations. We are watching it 212 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: with our own eyes on all of our devices. And 213 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: I'm just I know that it's far gone, as you said, 214 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: but it's just like, is there a way that we 215 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: reclaim faith and connection and our and coalesce around our 216 00:15:59,080 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: common humanity. 217 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, great point, and absolutely there is a power that 218 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 2: is emerging because of the environment we're in, a power 219 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 2: that is bigger than many of the fundamental belief systems 220 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 2: that many of us have stood in. America has never 221 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 2: experienced what we're experiencing now. And the other thing I 222 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: think that's important to to note is America democracy isn't 223 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 2: an experiment of sorts. In America, she really has never 224 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:40,479 Speaker 2: accomplished it fully an experiment, and so as she emerges, 225 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 2: she being democracy. I don't like the word morality because 226 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: it is it has been bastardized at this point. It 227 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 2: is a word that is subjective and one that has 228 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 2: been so misuse used that it's actually almost toxic at 229 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 2: this point. So that said, we all have to imagine differently. 230 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 2: I don't trust the systems that we're supposed to be 231 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 2: built to make me safe. I'm a black out lesbian 232 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 2: woman cis gender. These systems weren't built for me. These 233 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:33,199 Speaker 2: systems weren't designed for my people to thrive. And if 234 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 2: that's the case. Then what I'm excited about now, incredibly excited, 235 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 2: is the ways that many activists, faith leaders, regular people 236 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 2: walking down the street because of exactly what you said. 237 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 2: We're trying to find that place, but we're also finding 238 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 2: each other, those of us who are doing the grappling, 239 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 2: we are finding each other. So if I were to 240 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 2: use my faith talk, I would say spirit is drawing 241 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,959 Speaker 2: us one to another. I was not aware of your 242 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 2: podcast until I came to Creating Change. I came to 243 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 2: Creating Change, so your podcast, and like, how do I 244 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: not know this woman? How am I not engaging with 245 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 2: her more deeply? That is happening globally? Actually right, and 246 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 2: if we understand a move like that, the transformation that 247 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 2: is going on and about to manifest in the next 248 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 2: ten months is going to be revolutionary. 249 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: There's a word that you said that I have been 250 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: meditating on imagination, which comes from a place of dreaming, 251 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: which comes, I think from a place of ease. And 252 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 1: what I'm fine, what I'm grappling with is the ability 253 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: for us to imagine a future that we have not seen. 254 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: When we are anchored with so much to despair and hopelessness, 255 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: how do we bishop get to a dream scape, to 256 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: an imagination scape that takes us out of the present 257 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: despair and hopelessness that, by the way right the MAGA 258 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 1: supremis are weaponizing. This is where I struggle and I am. 259 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: You know, the listeners of my shows, they witness me 260 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: go up and down and vacillate from we can do 261 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: it to don't bother me. I'm going to stay in 262 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: bed today. 263 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 2: Again. Another great point. We don't get out of it. 264 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 2: That's the that's the fantasy that somehow I'm going to 265 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 2: be able to put this down and then move on 266 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 2: to this other place. The thing that excites me in 267 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 2: this moment is I have other movements that inspire me. 268 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 2: I have other dreamers who did not necessarily get to 269 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 2: live to see their dream manifested and the fights that 270 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:10,959 Speaker 2: they were doing. I didn't have to. You know, when 271 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 2: I go and i'm talking truth to power, I'm not 272 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 2: worrying about somebody waiting outside to stab me in my stomach. 273 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 2: I'm not waiting for somebody to drag me to what 274 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 2: I've been dragged to jail. But you know not, But 275 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 2: but I'm not. I'm not. I don't. I don't have 276 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 2: the fear that a dog is going to attack me. 277 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 2: How did they dream? What? What did they have? What 278 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 2: did what? What made mallion Wright Edelson believe that she 279 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 2: could actually create a fund to defend children? What? What? 280 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 2: What in her history? Her background? They didn't have the 281 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,400 Speaker 2: history we have to pull from. We've got elders still 282 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 2: alive who can help show a path. And I bring 283 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 2: the word elder up because the other thing I think 284 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 2: that we have greatly lost is the power of what 285 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 2: comes through the words and experiences of our elders. Yeah, 286 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 2: they're light bearers. They hold lights. They help us to 287 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 2: buck up when we want to lay down and our 288 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 2: comfortable beds and say, my god, I worked for twelve 289 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 2: hours today fighting in justice. It's like, yeah, they would 290 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 2: have worked twelve hours fighting in justice and then clean 291 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 2: Moss's house or ironed Missy's clothes to feed their children 292 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 2: and still walk to work instead of catching the bus. Right. So, 293 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 2: I think we've gotten a little soft personally. Privilege will 294 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 2: do that, and if we are not able to own that, 295 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 2: it's going to be problematic. This is hard work. This 296 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 2: is work that requires sacrifice. This is work that requires 297 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 2: us to put ourselves out there and risk something and 298 00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 2: I don't know that a lot of people are willing 299 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: to risk I don't know that a lot of people 300 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 2: are willing to cross generational lines. I don't know if 301 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 2: you know how many are willing to cross lines to 302 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 2: trans people, to gay and queer people, to the disabled community. 303 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 2: But again, the spirit is moving and it is drawing us. 304 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 2: It's not for me to work with everybody. Yeah, but 305 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 2: I can tell you when I do fine tribe, I 306 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 2: recognize tribe. I've met white tribe and I've met black folk. 307 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 2: It's so far not my tribe, you know what I'm saying. 308 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 2: So the it's more complicated because back in the day 309 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 2: it was black and white. That's not our truth anymore. 310 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 2: So this is where imagination comes. We're having to now 311 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 2: think about ways to work with people we never thought 312 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 2: we'd even be in conversation with. We're having to grapple 313 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 2: with what it means to own our own biases. I 314 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 2: have to push past some of my stuff. I have 315 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 2: to do. I got a good therapist, you know what 316 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 2: I'm saying. Because I want to note that too, because 317 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 2: to your point, and you've referenced the mind several times, 318 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 2: you don't do this stuff and not get damaged on 319 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 2: some level, right, if you're not careful. 320 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: I appreciate so much that you just brought up therapy 321 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: and mental health. I talk to people all the time. 322 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: I have a therapist that I've had for the last 323 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: several several years, and without her, I would not be 324 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: able to navigate and would not have grown and been 325 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: able to expand, to be able to carry some of 326 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: the things that have been put in our paths. And 327 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: you know, I want to ask you this last question, 328 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: which is for the hopeless, right, because I agree with you. 329 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: I think that in many ways we have gotten solved. 330 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: I think in many ways, like if I'm real with myself, 331 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: would I have been walking twenty miles to work? Probably 332 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: not right in order to you know, see through a boycott, right, 333 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: Like I think that we have to meet ourselves and 334 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 1: the moment where we are. But where I'm concerned is 335 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 1: with this lingering sense of despair and hopelessness that seems 336 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: to be taking control and hold over every generation, over 337 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: every group, so much so that I hear rumblings of 338 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: people saying, well, I am not going to vote. It's 339 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: not this, you know, Biden is not aligned with my values. 340 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: I am not going to do X, Y, and Z, 341 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking to myself, Oh, so you just want 342 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: to be in the camp then, right, Like, what does 343 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 1: this look like for you? So what do you say 344 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: to that? 345 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 2: People think one of the worst things in the world 346 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 2: are the things that hatred produce. Right, hatred has produced 347 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 2: horrific things, But personally, I believe there are very few 348 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 2: things worse than hopelessness. When one loses hope, there is 349 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 2: no energy to be much more than hopeless. And the 350 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 2: very act of work or being called to work right 351 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 2: is overwhelming. And so I think a couple of things 352 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 2: in reference to this. One is creating increasing numbers of 353 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 2: safe spaces where people can come and grapple together, increasing 354 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 2: number of spaces that celebrate joy in a time when 355 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 2: it is difficult. I have to do things intentionally to 356 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 2: bring joy into my life because of the nature of 357 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 2: my work. Right, I am clear that everybody somebody when 358 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 2: they were talking about I'd heard someone say something negative 359 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 2: one time about Al Sharpton, and I'm talking about I'm 360 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 2: from New Jersey, from Northern Jersey, so I'm talking about 361 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 2: Al Sharpton. That would be in the sweatsuit and curlis 362 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 2: in his Hey, I'm talking about that Al Sharpton, okay, 363 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 2: And they were comparing him to Jesse Jackson and saying 364 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 2: how they felt kind of ashamed about the way that 365 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 2: Al was showing up versus Jesse Jackson. And the best 366 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 2: response I ever heard of that was someone saying, you 367 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 2: don't wear a suit to go to the bottom of 368 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 2: the barrel. And those who go down to the bottom 369 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 2: of the barrel to stir up the dirt to reveal 370 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 2: the stuff, the crud that's down there, they said, that's 371 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 2: the work. That's OL's work, and he does it well. 372 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 2: And they said, and we need Jess though, because by 373 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 2: the time it gets to Jesse, Jesse skimming the residue 374 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 2: off the top. Come on, And I'm saying, I'm giving 375 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 2: that to say, you have the people who would have 376 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 2: rejected Jesse and who would have rejected Al, but we 377 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 2: needed Jesse and Al. And so if there are also 378 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 2: increasing ways that we can validate more of the spectrum, 379 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 2: and in our world now that has to also be multiracial, 380 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 2: multi issue. You know, it was a little bit of 381 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 2: a simpler time when all I had to do was 382 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 2: fight against everything that's anti black. Well, I want to 383 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 2: talk about the stuff this anti woman. I want to 384 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 2: talk about the stuff that's anti choice for what happens 385 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 2: to my body and women like me and everybody voting 386 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 2: against that isn't my right to choose? Isn't somebody on 387 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,959 Speaker 2: the far right right? So this is where I talk 388 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 2: talk about imagination. We have to be able to open 389 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 2: our minds up more and know that there is a 390 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 2: spectrum that we do not have a container for. We 391 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 2: don't have the rights container, and I'm happy about that actually, 392 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 2: but we do have to find a way of being 393 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 2: able to harness the amazing power, the incredible strength, the 394 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 2: resilience that is our community. And the hour I'm speaking 395 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 2: about isn't even so much just progressive versus conservative, because 396 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 2: there are conservatives that I do share some views with. Right. 397 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 2: This is why we have to be so careful about 398 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 2: how we do some things. But at the end of 399 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 2: the day, we have to get unapologetic about being full 400 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 2: throated in reference to the things we don't want, we 401 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 2: will not accept, and that we do want right And 402 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 2: everybody's not going to do all those things. It's not 403 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 2: for everybody to do all the things. We need a 404 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 2: jesse and we need it now. And we need to 405 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 2: get behind those who are doing that work, not judging 406 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 2: just because we don't like their hair color. Today, Who 407 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 2: the heck cares, it's their body. Let them do what 408 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 2: the heck they want to do, right. But what I 409 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 2: do care about is if you're impacting whether or not 410 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 2: my grandchildren and great grandchildren get a good education. I 411 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 2: ain't gonna stand by and watching mess that up. So 412 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 2: hope can be restored. That's the good news. The good 413 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 2: news is hope can be restored. And I am believing 414 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 2: for a nation that enables us to build not only hope, 415 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 2: but freedom and justice for all. 416 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: Bishop Tanya Rawls, thank you so incredibly much for your work, 417 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: for your words. I'm for making the time for WOKF. 418 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: I hope that I am able to call on you again. 419 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely, this has been absolutely amazing, and thank you 420 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 2: for your courage with your podcast. I have to say 421 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 2: just a full disclosure. I was like, now is it 422 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 2: okay for me to do a podcast called woke a F? 423 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 2: I had to sit for a second, Sister, I'm not 424 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 2: gonna lie, and I said, well, let me check it out, 425 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 2: let me just look at it. And because they said no, 426 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 2: you really need to meet her. And then you know 427 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 2: certain people when they say you should meet somebody you 428 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 2: like saying, and I said I need to go to 429 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 2: walk on f I do. And I wanted to say 430 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 2: the whole thing. I don't even like having this. Can 431 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 2: I say it one time? I love woke as fuck 432 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 2: and I'm gonna be acknowledging that everywhere, and I think 433 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 2: I want to say the whole thing. I thank you. 434 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: That is it for me today, dear friends on woke 435 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: A app as always power to the people and to 436 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: all the people. 437 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 3: Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck. 438 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: Yeah,