WEBVTT - #299 Jason Flom with Terence Rice

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<v Speaker 1>Back in the spring of twenty twenty one, Terrence Rice's

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<v Speaker 1>case was stagnating before the Brooklyn Conviction Review Unit, and

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<v Speaker 1>he reached out to us at Wrongful Conviction to see

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<v Speaker 1>if he could create some pressure from the outside. The

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<v Speaker 1>interview was ready for release in October twenty twenty one,

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<v Speaker 1>when his legal team requested that we temporarily shelved the

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<v Speaker 1>episode as they were at a critical juncture in negotiations

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<v Speaker 1>with Brooklyn DA Eric Gonzalez. After nearly a year, the

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<v Speaker 1>interview has finally been cleared for release. Shortly after midnight

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<v Speaker 1>on October ninth, nineteen ninety, Terrence Rice finished a payphone

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<v Speaker 1>call outdoors at the Tilden Housing Projects in Brownsville, Brooklyn,

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<v Speaker 1>while using the walkway on the rear side of a

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<v Speaker 1>neighboring building to return home. A gun battle was taking

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<v Speaker 1>place inside and in front of that building, involving the

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<v Speaker 1>occupants of Apartment one f Police were already in the

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<v Speaker 1>area and began arresting those fleeing the shooting through the

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<v Speaker 1>back door. Terrence was swept up in the chaos with

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<v Speaker 1>three other men. While two of the three of all

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<v Speaker 1>always maintained that Terrence was not in Apartment one F.

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<v Speaker 1>The third man, Tyrone Flowers, allegedly was beaten into giving

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<v Speaker 1>a false statement supporting an uncorroborated police narrative. This narrative

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<v Speaker 1>alleged that, separate from a well documented gun battle inside

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<v Speaker 1>it in front of the building, that Terrence allegedly fired

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<v Speaker 1>four or five shots at police officers out of the

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<v Speaker 1>back window of Apartment one F, to which officers claimed

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<v Speaker 1>to have returned fire, and that Terrence allegedly climbed out

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<v Speaker 1>of that window totally unscathed before his arrest on the walkway.

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<v Speaker 1>Tyrone Flowers denied the validity of his alleged statement at trial,

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<v Speaker 1>but that same statement was used to rebut his denials,

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<v Speaker 1>even though there were no spent shell casings, bullets, broken glass,

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<v Speaker 1>or any marks on the building to corroborate this version

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<v Speaker 1>of events. The three officers testimonies went unchallenged at trial,

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<v Speaker 1>and Terrence was sentenced to three consecutive life terms for

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<v Speaker 1>a crime that never even happened. This is wrongful conviction.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to wrongful conviction. I'm your host, Jason Flahman.

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<v Speaker 1>Today we have a man that I'm going to introduce

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<v Speaker 1>to you from behind bars where he remains after thirty

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<v Speaker 1>one years for a crime that never even happened, with

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<v Speaker 1>evidence that never existed, and with so many lies and

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<v Speaker 1>misconduct and competence thrown into this toxic mix that you're

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<v Speaker 1>literally going to go FLAWM, you're crazy. This can't be true,

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<v Speaker 1>but it is true. So, without further ado, Terrence Rice,

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<v Speaker 1>I've been wanting to share your story for a long

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<v Speaker 1>long time now, and I'm I mean sorry, he's not

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<v Speaker 1>as strong enough word, but I'm sorry you're here under

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<v Speaker 1>these circumstances. But I'm really happy that you're here to

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<v Speaker 1>share this unbelievable tale.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, thanks for having me. I highly appreciate you, not

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<v Speaker 2>just for my case, but for all the cases that

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<v Speaker 2>you're publicized, because you're literally giving a voice to the voiceless.

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<v Speaker 2>And I just want you to know that my words

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<v Speaker 2>is insufficient to show and express my appreciation.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, listen, I don't even feel like I have an

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<v Speaker 1>option here. I mean, I have to tell these stories.

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<v Speaker 1>So first of all, let's go back to before all

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<v Speaker 1>of this happened. Tell us about what life was like

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<v Speaker 1>for you growing up in Brownsville, Brooklyn.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, growing up in until the houses in Brownsville, Brooklyn.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just like most inner city neighborhoods where it's relatively

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<v Speaker 2>poor and people just living their life trying to do

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<v Speaker 2>the best things that they could do. Like far too

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<v Speaker 2>many other residents of the neighborhood, I've had trouble with

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<v Speaker 2>the law, you know, minus stuff, juvenile things like that.

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<v Speaker 2>The thing is, when you're young and you're running the

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<v Speaker 2>street and you're getting yourself into things that you don't

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<v Speaker 2>realize the impact that it's going to have later, you

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<v Speaker 2>make bad decisions. So leading up until my arrest for

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<v Speaker 2>this case, I just lived a normal life. I lived

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<v Speaker 2>with a female who was helping me get on my feet.

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<v Speaker 2>I had a parole to help me get a job

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<v Speaker 2>with a program that they call Wildcat. I took all

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<v Speaker 2>the Civil Service exam, and one of the places that

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<v Speaker 2>called me back with the New York City Department of Sanitation.

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<v Speaker 2>I actually went passed the test schedule for physical and everything.

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<v Speaker 2>The only reason why I'm not retiring as the New

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<v Speaker 2>York City Sanitation worker now is because I was wrawully arrested,

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<v Speaker 2>falsely convicted, and I've been.

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<v Speaker 1>Here ever since, and I'm just going to go back

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<v Speaker 1>now to give our audience a little context. So this

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<v Speaker 1>was nineteen ninety in Brownsville, Brooklyn. Both crime and police

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<v Speaker 1>misconduct were out of control. It's also important to note

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<v Speaker 1>that at this time cell phones were really rare, so

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<v Speaker 1>there was no unlimited talking text or anything like that.

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<v Speaker 1>Landline phone bills, by the way, could get really expensive.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's not a stretch to think that a guy

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<v Speaker 1>living in public housing would be using a payphone booth

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<v Speaker 1>on the regular. And if you remember, these phone booths

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<v Speaker 1>used to be ubiquitous, right, they were all over the city.

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<v Speaker 1>Now back to the day question. It's October ninth, nineteen ninety,

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<v Speaker 1>just after midnight twelve ten am. Police were in the

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<v Speaker 1>area already when they responded to gunshots at three thirty

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<v Speaker 1>Dumont Avenue that were happening between a group in the

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<v Speaker 1>hallway outside of Apartment one F and the guys within

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<v Speaker 1>that apartment who later became Terrence's co defendants, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm talking about Tyrone Flowers and Daryl Smith, as well

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<v Speaker 1>as Randy Hampton, who ended up never being indicted. Now, Terrence,

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<v Speaker 1>you lived in the adjacent building three point forty Dumont,

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<v Speaker 1>which was about two hundred feet away, right, and there

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<v Speaker 1>was a little courtyard in between the buildings. So take

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<v Speaker 1>us back before this gun battle happened, when you were

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<v Speaker 1>making your usual phone call that you made to your girlfriend.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So my significant other, she worked a job on

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<v Speaker 2>Broadway Video and the ship that she worked was from

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<v Speaker 2>four to twelve, So my lifestyle was if we were

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<v Speaker 2>actually together or I wasn't going to pick her up

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<v Speaker 2>from work, we were routinely call on the phone. We

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<v Speaker 2>had phone booths located in the back of my building.

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<v Speaker 2>So I completed the call and on my way back

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<v Speaker 2>to my building, it was shot fired inside of three

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<v Speaker 2>thirty Do my avenue. Now I lived three forty. Do

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<v Speaker 2>my avenue, So as I'm approaching the rear of my building,

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<v Speaker 2>the officers had to already be in the area because

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<v Speaker 2>they responded to that. Then some guys ran out of

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<v Speaker 2>three thirty do my avenue, the cross do my avenue,

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<v Speaker 2>and that melee wanted the officer to see me and

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<v Speaker 2>pointed his gun at me and told me to freeze,

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<v Speaker 2>get down on my knees, and basically walk towards him

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<v Speaker 2>on my knees. So that's what I did.

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<v Speaker 1>So I feel like I'm missing a connection here, So

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<v Speaker 1>it just was that you just happened to be on

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<v Speaker 1>the street and they were just like, let's just grab

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<v Speaker 1>this guy.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that anybody that would have been out there

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<v Speaker 2>that night, they would have at least they' sure, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>this is not somebody that got anything to do with

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<v Speaker 2>that shooting that's going on. So that's how that happened.

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<v Speaker 1>So is this literally just wrong place, wrong time, That's

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<v Speaker 1>really all it is.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly exactly. I got handcuffed, they grabbed somebody else that

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<v Speaker 2>they said came out of the art of the building,

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<v Speaker 2>and two other guys was found inside of the department

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<v Speaker 2>in three point thirty du Mont Avenue, Department one F.

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<v Speaker 2>So those guys claimed that they was watching a football

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<v Speaker 2>game and shots came through the door. Some guys from

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<v Speaker 2>inside the apartment fire out, the police robbed, and when

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<v Speaker 2>the police told them to come in so they could

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<v Speaker 2>secure it erea, they came out. So it was a

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<v Speaker 2>total of four of us that was arrested.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So, Tyrone Flowers and Darryl Smith were arrested from

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<v Speaker 1>inside apartment one F, and then Randy Hampton was arrested

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<v Speaker 1>outside and later ended up never being indicted. Though Tyrone

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<v Speaker 1>and Darryl however, were indicted along with you, and the

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<v Speaker 1>story of the shooting inside of three point thirty two

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<v Speaker 1>month was that the guys inside of Apartment one F

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<v Speaker 1>had been in a dispute with another group about a

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<v Speaker 1>girl earlier that same day, and in response, the other

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<v Speaker 1>party to that dispute came and shot through the door

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<v Speaker 1>of Apartment one F from the hallway, and the guys

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<v Speaker 1>inside one F then returned fire as the other group

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<v Speaker 1>retreated from the doorway of Apartment one F, the shooting

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<v Speaker 1>moved from there to the front area of the building.

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<v Speaker 1>The other party to this shooting was never found, arrested

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<v Speaker 1>or anything, but that gun battle inside and in front

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<v Speaker 1>of three thirty Dumont was well documented. I'm talking about

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<v Speaker 1>spent shells and bullets, bullet marks and bullet holes on

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<v Speaker 1>the walls and doors, and later ballistic evidence as well.

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<v Speaker 1>So they've got these other guys who were involved to

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<v Speaker 1>some degree, whatever degree, with the shooting inside and in

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<v Speaker 1>front of three thirty Dumont, and you, who was just

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<v Speaker 1>on the walkway in the back of the building without

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<v Speaker 1>a weapon. All four of you were brought down to

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<v Speaker 1>the precinct. I mean, did you think you had anything

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<v Speaker 1>to really are you about it at that time.

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<v Speaker 2>At that time, I'm still thinking of right. Once y'all

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<v Speaker 2>realized I'm on a walkway alongside my building, I'm out

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<v Speaker 2>of it. Unfortunately, the officers decided to fabricate a story.

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<v Speaker 2>They said that I was shooting out of the window

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<v Speaker 2>towards Dumont Avenue when they approached the rear of the

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<v Speaker 2>billion when they announced themselves, I allegedly turned around and

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<v Speaker 2>shot four or five times in their direction. They're saying

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<v Speaker 2>that they shot back at this window, and I came

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<v Speaker 2>out of the window and they just arrested me.

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<v Speaker 1>But unlike the other gun battle through the front door

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<v Speaker 1>of Apartment one AFF, there are no shell casings or bullets,

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<v Speaker 1>no bullet marks or bullet holes, no broken glass from

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<v Speaker 1>the alleged return fire from police officers, nothing, in other words,

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<v Speaker 1>to corroborate this version of events. But this is three

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<v Speaker 1>police officers telling the story.

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<v Speaker 2>They charged me, actually with tempted to murder three police

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<v Speaker 2>officers and possession of weapons weapons that they found inside

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<v Speaker 2>of a closet inside the apartment one F three to

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<v Speaker 2>thirty do my Avenue. I hired an attorney immediately after

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<v Speaker 2>being arrested. He hired an investigator named is Robert Ladie.

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<v Speaker 2>Robert Ladee went to basically canvass the area. He came

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<v Speaker 2>back with approximately five witnesses at the time, and they

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<v Speaker 2>all said I had nothing to do with this crime.

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<v Speaker 2>And then he wound up interviewing my Coda finis one

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<v Speaker 2>of the gods that they snatched up and the other

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<v Speaker 2>two that was found inside the apartment, and these gods

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<v Speaker 2>gave statements saying, listen, we've seeing this guy around the neighborhood.

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<v Speaker 2>You know he was nowhere in this apartment.

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<v Speaker 1>But nevertheless, three officers identified you as a shooter. And

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<v Speaker 1>then Tyrone Flowers alleged that he was beaten into giving

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<v Speaker 1>a video statement supporting their version of events that you

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<v Speaker 1>fired either a revolver or a shotgun. And that's even

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<v Speaker 1>somebody who knows very little boy guns like myself knows

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<v Speaker 1>that's a big discrepancy there. That you supposedly fired out

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<v Speaker 1>of the window of apartment one f on the backside

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<v Speaker 1>of the building for or five times at the police

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<v Speaker 1>and then climbed out of that same window where you

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<v Speaker 1>were arrested when you got to the ground level unharmed, right,

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<v Speaker 1>but again, no bullets or shells, no broken glass, no

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<v Speaker 1>bullet holes or bullet marks. I mean, you can't have

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<v Speaker 1>a shootout and then magically everything just disappears. Right, that

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<v Speaker 1>the physical evidence here doesn't support their version of events

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<v Speaker 1>for the simple reason that it was all just made up.

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<v Speaker 1>And No, it was standard protocol back then to test

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<v Speaker 1>people's hands for gunshot residue. Right, did they test your hands?

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<v Speaker 2>Nope, they didn't do that. They didn't do that at all.

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<v Speaker 2>They didn't test that window for anything. They didn't test

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<v Speaker 2>it for no finger plants.

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<v Speaker 1>Nothing, No, And yeah, why would they when they knew

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<v Speaker 1>that the results would have just disproved the story that

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<v Speaker 1>they were trying to tell. Right, you don't have to

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<v Speaker 1>be Colombo to figure this out. And I think it's

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<v Speaker 1>important to note that if you had done what they

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<v Speaker 1>claimed that you did, if you were actually crazy enough

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<v Speaker 1>to shoot at the police, you and that building would

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<v Speaker 1>have been basically Swiss cheese by the end of that interaction,

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<v Speaker 1>but instead not a scratch exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Everybody knows that. Everybody listener knows that at our pointed

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<v Speaker 2>a time in the middle of the night, at the

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<v Speaker 2>height of the crack error in New York City, when

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<v Speaker 2>all of that violence was at its height, I would

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<v Speaker 2>have went straight to the moor.

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<v Speaker 1>This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company.

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<v Speaker 1>AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and is making

0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:52.480
<v Speaker 1>a positive difference in the lives of its employees and

0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.200
<v Speaker 1>in the communities where we work and live. In light

0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:58.040
<v Speaker 1>of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and

0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.920
<v Speaker 1>in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform,

0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:06.160
<v Speaker 1>the AIG pro Bono Program provides free legal services and

0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:10.120
<v Speaker 1>other support to underrepresented communities and individuals.

0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:18.040
<v Speaker 2>So when we was in a precat and they separated

0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:20.480
<v Speaker 2>all of us, one of the CODA finishs was a

0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.600
<v Speaker 2>seventeen year o kid named Tyrone Flowers. He said they

0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:28.040
<v Speaker 2>beat him into making a confession, decentsionally saying that everybody

0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:30.880
<v Speaker 2>was in the apartment. Somebody shot through the apartment. The

0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:33.199
<v Speaker 2>officers asked him, was not in the apartment and he

0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.880
<v Speaker 2>was like yes. They asked him, was anybody shooting out

0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:37.800
<v Speaker 2>of the window with the shot done? Was anybody shooting

0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:39.800
<v Speaker 2>out of the window where he was like yes. So

0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.000
<v Speaker 2>when he made this confession, he told us he did that,

0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.559
<v Speaker 2>and he said, listen, I'm willing to give a statement

0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:48.880
<v Speaker 2>saying that they beat me up in the pre said

0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:51.920
<v Speaker 2>they made make the statement, so other two gods, they said,

0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:55.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm not in the apartment. Prior to trial, immediately after

0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:57.920
<v Speaker 2>receiving the statements, my lawyer filed what you call the

0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:00.319
<v Speaker 2>severage motion, and this motion is designed to have me

0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:03.120
<v Speaker 2>separate trial from the co defendents so that we would

0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:07.760
<v Speaker 2>be able to enjoy exculpatory testimonial saying that I'm innocent.

0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:11.600
<v Speaker 1>Right, because both Randy Hampton and Darryl Smith never waivered

0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:14.760
<v Speaker 1>that you weren't even in the apartment, let alone had

0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:19.480
<v Speaker 1>anyone fired anything out the window at the police. So

0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:24.400
<v Speaker 1>add those two testimonies to Tyrone's claim of being beaten

0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.840
<v Speaker 1>into giving that video statement, and that should have done

0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:31.240
<v Speaker 1>the job. But that's, of course not how things panned out.

0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:35.640
<v Speaker 2>During the proceedings prior to trial, I had a hearing

0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:38.520
<v Speaker 2>where my lawyer was not present. My lawyer filed the

0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:40.640
<v Speaker 2>affidavit with court saying that he was on trial in

0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.040
<v Speaker 2>my hand and didn't know when the trial would be concluded.

0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:46.640
<v Speaker 2>Irrespectful of that position, and I was not represented. The

0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:49.000
<v Speaker 2>judge did not a motion that he had before the

0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:51.440
<v Speaker 2>court for me to have a separate trial from these

0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:54.040
<v Speaker 2>guys so that at the trial they could come and

0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:56.600
<v Speaker 2>testify on my behalf, even if they didn't want to

0:14:56.640 --> 0:15:00.080
<v Speaker 2>testify on their own behalf at their own trial. So now, oh,

0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.560
<v Speaker 2>I go to trial. We went through a long colloquy

0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:07.480
<v Speaker 2>in court about why you're not giving me the separate trial,

0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.280
<v Speaker 2>and the judge said to my lawyer, you was here

0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.520
<v Speaker 2>during a court date that I examined him, and he

0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:17.080
<v Speaker 2>said nothing about testifying that. My lawyer was like, your honor,

0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:19.400
<v Speaker 2>that never happened. I was never president. I was on

0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:22.560
<v Speaker 2>trial in Manhattan, New York County. So they went back

0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:26.000
<v Speaker 2>and forth, and the clerk ultimately identified to the judge listen,

0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:28.600
<v Speaker 2>he was not here. So my lawyer said, this is

0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:31.120
<v Speaker 2>the first time I'm in court with all parties President.

0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:34.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm telling you I have exonerating statements from them. I

0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:37.840
<v Speaker 2>intend to call them. And the judge still denied the

0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:41.360
<v Speaker 2>motion and refused allowed him to testify. So they granted

0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:44.600
<v Speaker 2>the severance with the guy that made the videotape statement.

0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:47.200
<v Speaker 2>My position is that you granted that because you were

0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:49.720
<v Speaker 2>able to impeach him because he made a prior statement

0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:53.120
<v Speaker 2>saying something contrary to that the other they denied. The

0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:57.200
<v Speaker 2>severance stayed put Tyrone Flowers on the stand, and Tyrone

0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Flowers was basically up there hours whether or not what

0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:04.000
<v Speaker 2>he said on a video was true or what he

0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.240
<v Speaker 2>was saying today, meaning the time I was on trial,

0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.720
<v Speaker 2>he had a whole bunch of contradictions because, like I said,

0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:12.840
<v Speaker 2>on a stand, he's saying they was beating them up

0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:14.720
<v Speaker 2>in the precinct, and he was basically saying what the

0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:17.280
<v Speaker 2>officers want him to say in the video statement. The

0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:19.560
<v Speaker 2>officers asked him with that in the apartment and he

0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:22.240
<v Speaker 2>was like yes. They asked him, was anybody shooting out

0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:24.760
<v Speaker 2>of the window. He was like yes. My position with

0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.680
<v Speaker 2>that was the same thing as with the officers. And

0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:29.920
<v Speaker 2>what he's saying is true, where's the evidence of that

0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:30.720
<v Speaker 2>at right?

0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.480
<v Speaker 1>It always comes back to the fact that this version

0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:38.800
<v Speaker 1>of events is just words. Right, even though these words

0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:42.280
<v Speaker 1>were repeated by three police officers as well as allegedly

0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:45.800
<v Speaker 1>and this they say allegedly, but it's very credible, especially

0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.840
<v Speaker 1>in that era, that they were beaten out of Tyrone Flowers.

0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:54.080
<v Speaker 1>This narrative runs counter to all the physical evidence. While

0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:56.960
<v Speaker 1>your versus events is supported by the physical evidence as

0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:02.240
<v Speaker 1>well as by Randy Hampton and Darryl Smith. Unfortunately for you, however, Darryl,

0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:05.600
<v Speaker 1>as your co defendant, was not allowed to testify, and

0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:09.560
<v Speaker 1>Randy was never called by your lawyer. But what about

0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:13.880
<v Speaker 1>all the other alibi witnesses that your investigator actually interviewed.

0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:17.359
<v Speaker 2>One witness identified me by the phone of miss Brunton.

0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.680
<v Speaker 2>Another witness lived in three thirty through mont Avenue and

0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:22.760
<v Speaker 2>was like, I see who was in that, But he

0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.200
<v Speaker 2>was not there, He was not involved in that. So

0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.439
<v Speaker 2>these witnesses my lawyer never put on a stand.

0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:31.800
<v Speaker 1>This is just straight crazy. I mean, these other witnesses

0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:34.800
<v Speaker 1>were not presented your severance motion. Denial kept the jury

0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:38.640
<v Speaker 1>from hearing from Darryl Smith about your innocence, and then

0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:42.280
<v Speaker 1>with Tyrone's video statement impeaching what he was coming forward

0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:45.920
<v Speaker 1>with on the stand, this was not looking good for you.

0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:50.760
<v Speaker 1>Between the prosecution's tactics and the failures of your attorney,

0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:54.440
<v Speaker 1>it was basically a systematic removal of any evidence in

0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:55.080
<v Speaker 1>your defense.

0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.639
<v Speaker 2>So the people put the case on and it was

0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:01.720
<v Speaker 2>essentially the testimony of the officers. Once they got the

0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:05.520
<v Speaker 2>testimony from them, they went through the technical stuff and marshooting.

0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:09.480
<v Speaker 2>A whole bunch of evidence to establish that it was

0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:12.800
<v Speaker 2>a shootout between whoever was in that apartment and whoever

0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.359
<v Speaker 2>shot through that apartment door. They had pictures of the

0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:18.639
<v Speaker 2>bullet hole through the door. They had bullet markers all

0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.440
<v Speaker 2>in the hallway. They had spin shehells. Some of them

0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:24.919
<v Speaker 2>matched weapons that they found inside the apartment in the closet,

0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:27.119
<v Speaker 2>and some of them didn't. I guess those were guys

0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:30.240
<v Speaker 2>that shot in and they would never arrested. Every single

0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:34.080
<v Speaker 2>thing that they testified about with respects to these two

0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:36.440
<v Speaker 2>groups of people shooting at each other, they had all

0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.280
<v Speaker 2>of the physical evidence for that, but there was not

0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:44.120
<v Speaker 2>one single shred of evidence demonstrating that anything happened between

0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.560
<v Speaker 2>anybody at any window and a police officer. Now, one

0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:51.480
<v Speaker 2>of the officers actually testified that he'd seen the shotgun

0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:54.919
<v Speaker 2>and the shotgun was being fired, and this happened before

0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:58.359
<v Speaker 2>the revolver. Two of them said they didn't see a shotgun.

0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:03.000
<v Speaker 2>Not one single shotgun spent shell was recovered when they

0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:06.600
<v Speaker 2>recovered all of this other stuff. So evidence with respects

0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:09.920
<v Speaker 2>to why I'm convicted is non existence outside of the

0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:12.679
<v Speaker 2>testimony by these three officers you.

0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:16.120
<v Speaker 1>Know, And it's striking to me that they didn't even

0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:20.280
<v Speaker 1>bother to coordinate their stories. If I had to guess,

0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.679
<v Speaker 1>they must have thought, well, we're gonna convict this guy regardless,

0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:25.440
<v Speaker 1>So why are we even going to waste time trying

0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:28.159
<v Speaker 1>to sit around and make sure our stories match. They

0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:33.040
<v Speaker 1>didn't even bother to do that. So you have conflicting testimony,

0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:37.359
<v Speaker 1>all of which is nonsensical because it didn't match any

0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:40.440
<v Speaker 1>of the facts. You have a total lack of evidence.

0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:44.280
<v Speaker 1>It sounds like, I mean, it's a show trial. When

0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:46.960
<v Speaker 1>the jury went out, did you still feel like you

0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:49.240
<v Speaker 1>had a hope in hell of being acquitted.

0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:52.720
<v Speaker 2>It's not like I had a jury that was made

0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:56.960
<v Speaker 2>up of people that understand. It's a difference in the

0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:00.119
<v Speaker 2>way police is being conducted a lot of stuff that

0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:05.720
<v Speaker 2>people is outraged about now. It's stuff that was unfortunately

0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:08.639
<v Speaker 2>normal for me and God that grew up with me.

0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.080
<v Speaker 2>See back then they didn't have campus, But for us,

0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:16.119
<v Speaker 2>it was like, it's nothing for the police to pull up,

0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.720
<v Speaker 2>guns drawn, get down, get on a car, don't move.

0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:24.240
<v Speaker 2>That's regular stuff for us. So everybody don't have that view.

0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:28.680
<v Speaker 2>So when a person here, somebody in authority that took

0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:32.000
<v Speaker 2>the oath to uphold the law. Why would these guys

0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:34.560
<v Speaker 2>break that, Why would they get together and say that,

0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:37.399
<v Speaker 2>why would you make that up? So these juries, they

0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:39.439
<v Speaker 2>don't know that part of it. But to answer your

0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:42.960
<v Speaker 2>question directly, yes, I really thought that I had a shot,

0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:46.119
<v Speaker 2>because who is going to believe that they're going to

0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:48.640
<v Speaker 2>be evicted for something, Not that you got the wrong

0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:52.320
<v Speaker 2>person or any It never even happened. It never happened.

0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:55.879
<v Speaker 1>It's just an unbelievable indictment of our system in general.

0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:58.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean the fact that you're there now. Jesus Christ.

0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:00.920
<v Speaker 1>You've been in prison eight year years longer than you

0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:04.240
<v Speaker 1>were alive outside of prison. So this is insanity for

0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:06.320
<v Speaker 1>a crime that never happened. I'm gonna say it again

0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:08.200
<v Speaker 1>and again and again. A crime that never happened, in

0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:10.520
<v Speaker 1>which no one was hurt, and no one was touched,

0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:13.399
<v Speaker 1>and no one was harmed in any conceivable way, not

0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:17.240
<v Speaker 1>even their feelings were hurt. So okay, So the moment

0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:19.760
<v Speaker 1>that you were convicted, if you could take us back

0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:22.240
<v Speaker 1>to that must have been the worst moment of your life.

0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:27.119
<v Speaker 2>On October sixteenth, nineteen ninety one, a go before the

0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:31.399
<v Speaker 2>citizen Judge and a citizen judge basically said that I

0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:36.120
<v Speaker 2>am going to run twenty five years to life since consecutively,

0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:39.520
<v Speaker 2>which total seventy five years to life, because I do

0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.399
<v Speaker 2>not want any one of these offers to feel like

0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:45.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm punishing you all. At the same time, she sentence

0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:48.480
<v Speaker 2>in me like I was a serial killer. So when

0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:51.840
<v Speaker 2>I got sense to that, they immediately shackled me up,

0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:54.679
<v Speaker 2>wrote me on the bus, and I was shipped to Attica.

0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:59.240
<v Speaker 2>At the time I was convicted, if somebody voted the

0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:02.760
<v Speaker 2>capitated three officers in town Square, they will not have

0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:05.560
<v Speaker 2>been able to receive another day more than what I'm

0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:08.280
<v Speaker 2>saying to very good live in New York State Twitter

0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:28.240
<v Speaker 2>sales since October ninth, nineteen ninety I'm in green Haven

0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:32.920
<v Speaker 2>Correction Facility that's in Stormville, New York, you know, approximately

0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:35.200
<v Speaker 2>an hour outside of the city, outside of the Bronx,

0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:40.280
<v Speaker 2>and I exercise. I run marathons, I run, and I

0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:43.920
<v Speaker 2>also do mental exercises met to play in So I

0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:46.159
<v Speaker 2>do that I take that time out for myself to

0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:49.240
<v Speaker 2>get sprtually a line so that I will be able

0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:51.760
<v Speaker 2>to prepare myself for the visions of the day and

0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:53.239
<v Speaker 2>all of this stuff that I got to go through.

0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:55.800
<v Speaker 2>You can only imagine this the negativity and the environment

0:22:55.920 --> 0:22:58.680
<v Speaker 2>coming from both sides of the fence. But I have

0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:05.120
<v Speaker 2>a very very strong support system, yourself included Daryl Hamilton. Unbelievable.

0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:07.760
<v Speaker 2>This guy spent a bunch of time in prison before

0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:10.879
<v Speaker 2>being exonerated. Since the day stepped out, this is the

0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:13.399
<v Speaker 2>type of work he've been doing. So I'm encouraged by that.

0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:15.600
<v Speaker 2>I have a wife whom I've been married to for

0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:18.679
<v Speaker 2>more than quarter of a century. People don't understand how

0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:20.680
<v Speaker 2>we do that because they can't stay together that long

0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:24.520
<v Speaker 2>out there, but she's definitely a rock and the kids,

0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:27.399
<v Speaker 2>and so it's a combination of these things. Of course,

0:23:27.800 --> 0:23:30.560
<v Speaker 2>you have moments that are harder than other moments. I

0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:33.240
<v Speaker 2>love mut I love to read. I'm always reading, and

0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:35.840
<v Speaker 2>aside from frighting my case, I helped a lot of

0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:38.080
<v Speaker 2>other guys. I made sure I got a legal research

0:23:38.119 --> 0:23:41.280
<v Speaker 2>certificate so I could work in Lord Library. I did

0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:44.040
<v Speaker 2>the IOC, which is basically an inmate ls On committee

0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:47.480
<v Speaker 2>where I represent population to the administration, bring the Conservative

0:23:47.480 --> 0:23:51.400
<v Speaker 2>administration back to the population. I do youth empowerment classes,

0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:54.360
<v Speaker 2>being involved in a bunch of different organizations, and everything

0:23:54.440 --> 0:23:57.159
<v Speaker 2>that I felt was significant, just trying to be the

0:23:57.240 --> 0:23:58.159
<v Speaker 2>best person I could be.

0:23:58.680 --> 0:24:01.240
<v Speaker 1>Well, Terence, all I can say is you have all

0:24:01.359 --> 0:24:05.000
<v Speaker 1>my respect. And so now with your post conviction litigation,

0:24:05.560 --> 0:24:08.600
<v Speaker 1>so much of this starts with the ineffective representation by

0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:10.000
<v Speaker 1>your trial attorney.

0:24:09.720 --> 0:24:12.800
<v Speaker 2>Right ineffective assistance a counsel. Of course, I raised that

0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:15.600
<v Speaker 2>on a pill. They didn't even acknowledge that I had

0:24:15.960 --> 0:24:20.240
<v Speaker 2>also the severge issue and how it was not constitutional

0:24:20.400 --> 0:24:23.240
<v Speaker 2>sound for them to deny the severage motion for my

0:24:23.320 --> 0:24:28.199
<v Speaker 2>codes Flinders. I have been in Brooklyn District Attorney's conviction

0:24:28.320 --> 0:24:31.240
<v Speaker 2>review you it for over six years now, and they

0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:34.960
<v Speaker 2>supposed to be investigating this rawful conviction. The district attorney,

0:24:35.000 --> 0:24:38.440
<v Speaker 2>one of the investigators, did interview the girl and she

0:24:38.720 --> 0:24:40.960
<v Speaker 2>verified where she worked and that I would call every

0:24:41.000 --> 0:24:44.840
<v Speaker 2>day and this was our lifestyle, but basically dismissed that

0:24:45.040 --> 0:24:47.399
<v Speaker 2>as if that has nothing to do because you not

0:24:47.480 --> 0:24:50.120
<v Speaker 2>an eye witness of the crime. I had an extensive

0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:53.639
<v Speaker 2>meeting with one of the sisters the district attorneys. I

0:24:53.720 --> 0:24:56.000
<v Speaker 2>explained to her. I said, listen, look how ridiculous the

0:24:56.080 --> 0:24:59.159
<v Speaker 2>story is. If the officers, all three of them, they

0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:01.520
<v Speaker 2>all talking about I'm not trying to scare them, I'm

0:25:01.560 --> 0:25:04.240
<v Speaker 2>trying to murder them. At what time when I came

0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:08.000
<v Speaker 2>out of this window actually towards y'all, did y'all decide

0:25:08.000 --> 0:25:10.600
<v Speaker 2>I was no longer a threat and nobody shot at nothing.

0:25:11.080 --> 0:25:14.159
<v Speaker 2>After the meeting, when I called my attorney, said the

0:25:14.280 --> 0:25:19.200
<v Speaker 2>digital attorney said that your story has problems because you've

0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:22.280
<v Speaker 2>told them during the meeting that the officers seeing you

0:25:22.359 --> 0:25:25.159
<v Speaker 2>on the walkway, made you get down on your knees

0:25:25.440 --> 0:25:28.640
<v Speaker 2>and walk towards them, and we had pictures. And if

0:25:28.880 --> 0:25:32.120
<v Speaker 2>there's nothing wrong with the bottom of Terrence's pants from

0:25:32.160 --> 0:25:34.680
<v Speaker 2>the knees down to his foot, and if what he

0:25:34.800 --> 0:25:37.560
<v Speaker 2>said was true, that it would have been something dirt

0:25:37.720 --> 0:25:39.919
<v Speaker 2>or something on his knee. So I couldn't believe they

0:25:40.000 --> 0:25:42.520
<v Speaker 2>said that. So what I did was I called my

0:25:42.600 --> 0:25:44.760
<v Speaker 2>wife and acted, did she have a copy of my

0:25:44.880 --> 0:25:48.440
<v Speaker 2>trial transfrist really available? She said absolutely. I said, go

0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:52.200
<v Speaker 2>to officers Mackie testimony. He said that when he noticed me,

0:25:52.680 --> 0:25:55.240
<v Speaker 2>he made me get down on my knees, put my

0:25:55.320 --> 0:25:57.560
<v Speaker 2>hands behind my back, and walked towards him. I said,

0:25:57.600 --> 0:25:59.320
<v Speaker 2>make a copy of that. Send that to the District

0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:02.359
<v Speaker 2>Attorney's office. They sent it to the district Attorney's office.

0:26:02.480 --> 0:26:05.400
<v Speaker 2>We didn't hear nothing back on that. So the next communication,

0:26:05.560 --> 0:26:08.600
<v Speaker 2>my attorney said, Terrence, the district attorney is saying that

0:26:08.800 --> 0:26:12.040
<v Speaker 2>during the meeting, you told them that you didn't know

0:26:12.640 --> 0:26:15.400
<v Speaker 2>miss Brunton at the time you got arrested. You found

0:26:15.440 --> 0:26:17.520
<v Speaker 2>out a bob when she became a witness. But the

0:26:17.600 --> 0:26:21.440
<v Speaker 2>record shows that this is who you called from the precinct.

0:26:21.640 --> 0:26:23.320
<v Speaker 2>I said, you gotta be kidding me. He said, no,

0:26:23.440 --> 0:26:26.040
<v Speaker 2>this is what they're telling me. So I pulled out

0:26:26.119 --> 0:26:28.760
<v Speaker 2>the police report from the phone call that I made.

0:26:29.000 --> 0:26:31.160
<v Speaker 2>The phone call that I made was to the house

0:26:31.200 --> 0:26:33.360
<v Speaker 2>I was living at three point forty do my avenue

0:26:33.640 --> 0:26:36.480
<v Speaker 2>and to the females who I call every night. Send

0:26:36.520 --> 0:26:38.399
<v Speaker 2>that to them. When they sent that to the district

0:26:38.400 --> 0:26:41.560
<v Speaker 2>Attorney's office, they said, oh, we made a mistake. Somebody

0:26:41.680 --> 0:26:45.120
<v Speaker 2>wrote something in and we thought that they wrote Brunching,

0:26:45.200 --> 0:26:47.920
<v Speaker 2>but it really was somebody named Carr. So I was like,

0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:50.560
<v Speaker 2>all right, And it just been a back and forth.

0:26:50.440 --> 0:26:56.760
<v Speaker 1>And then and back and forth and went like that,

0:26:57.000 --> 0:27:01.119
<v Speaker 1>squabbling over these trivial details while they ig Nord was

0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:05.639
<v Speaker 1>glaringly obvious that this was a quote unquote crime that

0:27:06.040 --> 0:27:09.840
<v Speaker 1>never even happened. That building would have been lit up

0:27:09.960 --> 0:27:12.680
<v Speaker 1>like a freaking Christmas tree if Terrence had shot even

0:27:12.800 --> 0:27:16.000
<v Speaker 1>once at those police officers. But that's simply not what happened.

0:27:16.680 --> 0:27:20.879
<v Speaker 1>So while the squabbling continued, it appeared that some headway

0:27:20.960 --> 0:27:24.879
<v Speaker 1>had been made in negotiations, so Terrence's legal team requested

0:27:24.960 --> 0:27:27.160
<v Speaker 1>that we shelve this interview until they had a chance

0:27:27.200 --> 0:27:28.920
<v Speaker 1>to hammer out the terms of this release with the

0:27:28.960 --> 0:27:33.119
<v Speaker 1>Brooklyn District Attorney Ericnzalie. And I'm happy to report that

0:27:33.359 --> 0:27:39.040
<v Speaker 1>Terrence now joins us finally from outside the walls. So Terrence,

0:27:39.800 --> 0:27:41.320
<v Speaker 1>welcome back to Ronful Conviction.

0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:44.360
<v Speaker 3>Thank you very much. I appreciate you guys having.

0:27:44.240 --> 0:27:47.119
<v Speaker 1>Me so Terrence. The moment that I finally heard that

0:27:47.240 --> 0:27:50.480
<v Speaker 1>you were out, I mean I was so happy calling

0:27:50.800 --> 0:27:54.080
<v Speaker 1>friends and family. Uh might call my colleagues here at

0:27:54.160 --> 0:27:57.800
<v Speaker 1>Roneful Conviction. You know Connor, our producer, I think he

0:27:58.359 --> 0:28:01.160
<v Speaker 1>this case has for some reason or other, this case

0:28:01.160 --> 0:28:03.520
<v Speaker 1>has bothered him as much as any and I know

0:28:03.680 --> 0:28:07.080
<v Speaker 1>he's been so invested in this, and so it's you know,

0:28:07.400 --> 0:28:09.600
<v Speaker 1>it was a great call with him, and we're all

0:28:09.720 --> 0:28:11.639
<v Speaker 1>just so happy for you. So I can't imagine what

0:28:11.840 --> 0:28:13.960
<v Speaker 1>this must be like for your family and of course

0:28:14.440 --> 0:28:18.200
<v Speaker 1>your wife Michelle, who's been such a credible and steadfast supporter.

0:28:18.760 --> 0:28:21.600
<v Speaker 1>Shout out to every one of them for their strength

0:28:21.880 --> 0:28:24.680
<v Speaker 1>through this unbelievable or deal in nightmare.

0:28:24.880 --> 0:28:27.600
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, so take us there.

0:28:27.800 --> 0:28:30.919
<v Speaker 1>What was it like to be finally reunited with him

0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:32.480
<v Speaker 1>three decades on?

0:28:32.920 --> 0:28:33.520
<v Speaker 3>It was great.

0:28:33.880 --> 0:28:36.320
<v Speaker 4>The wife came up to the facilities, she was out

0:28:36.400 --> 0:28:39.400
<v Speaker 4>there with a couple of family members when I was released,

0:28:39.640 --> 0:28:43.040
<v Speaker 4>And from there we went out to City Isllen and

0:28:43.120 --> 0:28:45.480
<v Speaker 4>had lunch because they were out there all morning and

0:28:45.960 --> 0:28:49.680
<v Speaker 4>nobody got any sleep the night before, probably even before that,

0:28:50.000 --> 0:28:52.560
<v Speaker 4>but definitely not the night before, because they were excited

0:28:53.000 --> 0:28:55.720
<v Speaker 4>about coming to you know, be there to be in

0:28:55.800 --> 0:28:56.719
<v Speaker 4>my support system.

0:28:56.960 --> 0:28:58.760
<v Speaker 3>I didn't actually feel.

0:29:00.080 --> 0:29:02.520
<v Speaker 4>Off the boat until I actually got home, you know,

0:29:02.640 --> 0:29:05.480
<v Speaker 4>and I was able to be like, wow, I'm here now,

0:29:05.840 --> 0:29:10.040
<v Speaker 4>you know. But because of the circumstances surrounding how I

0:29:10.120 --> 0:29:12.960
<v Speaker 4>got released. As great as the feeling is, it was a.

0:29:12.960 --> 0:29:17.520
<v Speaker 1>Bittersweet, right because even though you're out, justice really still

0:29:17.640 --> 0:29:20.120
<v Speaker 1>hasn't been served in this case, or if it's been served,

0:29:20.160 --> 0:29:24.440
<v Speaker 1>it's been served cold. Because despite the obvious, which is

0:29:24.520 --> 0:29:27.680
<v Speaker 1>that you are an innocent man, and again innocent of

0:29:27.760 --> 0:29:31.800
<v Speaker 1>a crime that never even happened. You still remain sort

0:29:31.840 --> 0:29:33.959
<v Speaker 1>of a prisoner in a much bigger prison, right as

0:29:34.000 --> 0:29:35.760
<v Speaker 1>a par league. I mean, even recently you and I

0:29:35.840 --> 0:29:37.760
<v Speaker 1>were going to get together and you know you weren't

0:29:37.760 --> 0:29:40.840
<v Speaker 1>able to do it because of this, these crazy restrictions

0:29:40.880 --> 0:29:43.920
<v Speaker 1>that are put on you. Can you explain the deal

0:29:43.960 --> 0:29:46.240
<v Speaker 1>that you got from the Brooklyn DA.

0:29:46.880 --> 0:29:47.200
<v Speaker 3>Okay?

0:29:47.400 --> 0:29:51.560
<v Speaker 4>So they were trying to get my lawyers to convince

0:29:51.680 --> 0:29:56.200
<v Speaker 4>me to plead guilty and that they would reduce the sentence,

0:29:56.760 --> 0:30:00.160
<v Speaker 4>and I was like, absolutely not. I will die on

0:30:00.280 --> 0:30:02.760
<v Speaker 4>my feet before I live on my knees and say

0:30:02.880 --> 0:30:05.720
<v Speaker 4>that I am guilty of something that even they know

0:30:05.880 --> 0:30:09.920
<v Speaker 4>and it's obvious that never happened. And what they ultimately

0:30:10.000 --> 0:30:14.160
<v Speaker 4>did was foul the motion to have my sentence that

0:30:14.400 --> 0:30:19.240
<v Speaker 4>was running consecutively rank concurrent. So I had three twenty

0:30:19.400 --> 0:30:23.080
<v Speaker 4>five to life sentence that was ran consecutively which total

0:30:23.200 --> 0:30:27.000
<v Speaker 4>to seventy five years to life. By them putting an

0:30:27.080 --> 0:30:31.480
<v Speaker 4>emotion to run a concurrent that would effectively make my

0:30:31.800 --> 0:30:33.400
<v Speaker 4>sentence to twenty five to life.

0:30:33.920 --> 0:30:36.880
<v Speaker 1>Right, and since you had already done thirty two years,

0:30:36.960 --> 0:30:39.320
<v Speaker 1>that made you eligible for parole, but we know that

0:30:39.440 --> 0:30:42.680
<v Speaker 1>the parle board doesn't usually let anyone out unless they

0:30:42.760 --> 0:30:45.840
<v Speaker 1>admit guilt and show remorse, which you just said you

0:30:45.960 --> 0:30:49.040
<v Speaker 1>weren't about to do. So how is it possible that

0:30:49.120 --> 0:30:49.840
<v Speaker 1>you're here right now?

0:30:50.560 --> 0:30:54.440
<v Speaker 4>So the conditions for the sentence reduction would be that

0:30:54.760 --> 0:30:58.480
<v Speaker 4>the District Attorney's office would not oppose the motion and

0:30:58.640 --> 0:31:03.320
<v Speaker 4>that they will actually support my release. But I had

0:31:03.400 --> 0:31:05.880
<v Speaker 4>to sign a waiver for them not to be civilly

0:31:06.000 --> 0:31:09.680
<v Speaker 4>liable and layman's turn so that the viewers can understand

0:31:09.760 --> 0:31:14.920
<v Speaker 4>clearly they wanted to be relieved of any possibility of

0:31:15.080 --> 0:31:19.520
<v Speaker 4>me swing once I eventually be exonerated or have this

0:31:19.880 --> 0:31:24.800
<v Speaker 4>illegal sentence vacated, which was ridiculous to me because first

0:31:24.840 --> 0:31:27.840
<v Speaker 4>and foremost, just by you putting that on the table

0:31:29.040 --> 0:31:33.120
<v Speaker 4>indicatese that you know I have no business being here

0:31:33.360 --> 0:31:37.080
<v Speaker 4>and that you expect me to be exonerated. Because if

0:31:37.160 --> 0:31:40.800
<v Speaker 4>you had an ironclad case and you believe that I

0:31:40.920 --> 0:31:44.080
<v Speaker 4>was really guilty, how would a guilty person be able

0:31:44.120 --> 0:31:48.520
<v Speaker 4>to suit anybody for anything. So this, for me is

0:31:48.600 --> 0:31:52.480
<v Speaker 4>an indication that you know, eventually this man is going

0:31:52.560 --> 0:31:54.840
<v Speaker 4>to be exonerated. We just don't want to compensate him

0:31:54.920 --> 0:31:56.440
<v Speaker 4>for them thirty two years he served.

0:31:57.400 --> 0:32:00.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I remember you explaining this possibility me a few

0:32:00.480 --> 0:32:03.120
<v Speaker 1>months back while you were still awaiting your hearing, and

0:32:03.240 --> 0:32:06.120
<v Speaker 1>I'm still justice pissed off that your release couldn't have

0:32:06.360 --> 0:32:10.800
<v Speaker 1>just been allowed by some normal legal channels rather than

0:32:10.960 --> 0:32:15.160
<v Speaker 1>this deal that feels like well, like you said, bittersweet.

0:32:15.480 --> 0:32:19.520
<v Speaker 4>I was led to believe that the judge would not

0:32:19.680 --> 0:32:23.520
<v Speaker 4>sentence me if I don't sign that. Ultimately, I signed

0:32:23.560 --> 0:32:26.120
<v Speaker 4>it because I said, at least it's not nowhere near

0:32:26.200 --> 0:32:29.400
<v Speaker 4>in a mission of guilt. It's just, you know, monetary

0:32:29.480 --> 0:32:34.880
<v Speaker 4>conversation and overcoming a civil law is much easier than

0:32:35.040 --> 0:32:38.520
<v Speaker 4>trying to overcome an admission of guilt for something that

0:32:38.640 --> 0:32:42.040
<v Speaker 4>I didn't do, you know, And I wanted to come

0:32:42.080 --> 0:32:45.880
<v Speaker 4>home with my family. So I signed it, and they

0:32:45.960 --> 0:32:47.880
<v Speaker 4>did what they said they were going to do, and

0:32:48.000 --> 0:32:52.280
<v Speaker 4>they supported my release. That was important because, as you

0:32:52.520 --> 0:32:55.720
<v Speaker 4>asked me, and I pointed out to you, a parole

0:32:55.800 --> 0:32:59.320
<v Speaker 4>board requires somebody to admit guilt.

0:33:00.280 --> 0:33:04.040
<v Speaker 1>Your courage to stand firm and your innocence is impressive

0:33:04.280 --> 0:33:07.720
<v Speaker 1>and inspiring. You didn't let them get you to bend

0:33:07.760 --> 0:33:11.600
<v Speaker 1>the knee, and that's just badass. If there's any silver

0:33:11.720 --> 0:33:14.760
<v Speaker 1>lines in these proceedings, it's that at least that aspect

0:33:14.800 --> 0:33:17.080
<v Speaker 1>of it feels like justice. And I got to say,

0:33:17.120 --> 0:33:19.320
<v Speaker 1>as a fella New Yorker, I'd be happy to do

0:33:19.480 --> 0:33:21.440
<v Speaker 1>right by you, as I'm sure everyone who hears this

0:33:21.520 --> 0:33:24.320
<v Speaker 1>story would, to give you the compensation that you deserve,

0:33:25.360 --> 0:33:27.920
<v Speaker 1>which I mean no number would ever be enough to

0:33:28.000 --> 0:33:31.160
<v Speaker 1>return to you what those three cops took from you

0:33:31.400 --> 0:33:33.400
<v Speaker 1>with their lives, you know.

0:33:34.320 --> 0:33:38.720
<v Speaker 4>For me, I will say that compensation does not buy

0:33:38.840 --> 0:33:44.160
<v Speaker 4>back the years that people lost. Right irrespective of whatever

0:33:44.200 --> 0:33:48.720
<v Speaker 4>amount of money, I do think that it is deserving

0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:54.520
<v Speaker 4>whatever is appropriate under the law, under the circumstances, because

0:33:54.640 --> 0:33:58.640
<v Speaker 4>it gives a person an opportunity to live whatever golden

0:33:58.760 --> 0:34:01.120
<v Speaker 4>years they have left at to going through the ordeal

0:34:01.560 --> 0:34:04.880
<v Speaker 4>and put their family in a position, if they're not

0:34:05.000 --> 0:34:08.759
<v Speaker 4>already in the position to live a better life generational wealth,

0:34:08.800 --> 0:34:12.600
<v Speaker 4>so to speak. To have to suffer trying to make

0:34:12.760 --> 0:34:16.080
<v Speaker 4>ends meet after going through that ordeal is another matter.

0:34:16.520 --> 0:34:20.279
<v Speaker 4>But personally, for me, it is the fact that I

0:34:20.560 --> 0:34:23.800
<v Speaker 4>am found guilty for something that never happened.

0:34:24.239 --> 0:34:27.960
<v Speaker 3>How do I begin a healing process. It's nothing to

0:34:28.040 --> 0:34:30.080
<v Speaker 3>do with money. Jason nothing to do with it.

0:34:30.200 --> 0:34:30.600
<v Speaker 2>Not for me.

0:34:31.200 --> 0:34:32.799
<v Speaker 3>It's getting to a place.

0:34:33.080 --> 0:34:38.359
<v Speaker 4>Where I'm exonerated, you know, I'm made whole and acknowledge

0:34:38.440 --> 0:34:42.800
<v Speaker 4>that that ordeal should have never happened. I'm on parole

0:34:42.960 --> 0:34:47.640
<v Speaker 4>right now. I feel like it's prison without the cell,

0:34:48.120 --> 0:34:53.640
<v Speaker 4>without the bars. I gotta worry about getting pulled over,

0:34:54.440 --> 0:34:56.920
<v Speaker 4>and as soon as my name is ran through the computer,

0:34:57.480 --> 0:35:00.839
<v Speaker 4>I'm looked at immediately as somebody who tried to kill

0:35:00.920 --> 0:35:04.200
<v Speaker 4>three New York City police officers and it never happened.

0:35:04.200 --> 0:35:07.800
<v Speaker 3>So I'm still living that ordeal. It is traumatic. My

0:35:07.960 --> 0:35:09.680
<v Speaker 3>next milestone is sixty years old.

0:35:10.719 --> 0:35:13.880
<v Speaker 4>I have a parole officer. I have to be in

0:35:14.000 --> 0:35:16.359
<v Speaker 4>by eight o'clock at night. I can't leave the house

0:35:16.440 --> 0:35:18.000
<v Speaker 4>before eight o'clock in the morning.

0:35:18.520 --> 0:35:18.719
<v Speaker 2>You know.

0:35:18.880 --> 0:35:22.279
<v Speaker 3>So it's happy as I am to be able to

0:35:22.400 --> 0:35:25.480
<v Speaker 3>hug my wife without bars being in between us, be

0:35:25.640 --> 0:35:28.040
<v Speaker 3>with my family, eat good food and all of that.

0:35:28.520 --> 0:35:35.680
<v Speaker 4>It's still a bittersweet, and hopefully every Gonzales will see

0:35:35.840 --> 0:35:40.440
<v Speaker 4>that this needs to be corrected and move towards that. However,

0:35:40.640 --> 0:35:43.719
<v Speaker 4>whether it's with or without his support, I'll file my

0:35:43.880 --> 0:35:47.759
<v Speaker 4>motion and I'll have the evidence where it's obvious that

0:35:47.880 --> 0:35:50.359
<v Speaker 4>I should not have gone through the ordeal and let

0:35:50.480 --> 0:35:54.000
<v Speaker 4>the system work. You know, again, it doesn't always work,

0:35:54.840 --> 0:35:56.000
<v Speaker 4>and we need to.

0:35:56.040 --> 0:35:59.160
<v Speaker 1>Support you know, we'll be here to support you in

0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:01.040
<v Speaker 1>any way we can. And I know you had a

0:36:01.160 --> 0:36:03.560
<v Speaker 1>change dot org petition before you were released. Is that

0:36:03.800 --> 0:36:05.280
<v Speaker 1>how our audience can show support?

0:36:06.000 --> 0:36:08.839
<v Speaker 4>Yes, absolutely, I want to let people know where we're at.

0:36:09.320 --> 0:36:12.960
<v Speaker 4>I'll modify the change do or petition to reflect my

0:36:13.120 --> 0:36:18.080
<v Speaker 4>current status. However, I still encourage the supporters that sign

0:36:18.520 --> 0:36:22.040
<v Speaker 4>to share and encourage their supporters on whatever social media

0:36:22.120 --> 0:36:26.000
<v Speaker 4>platforms or whatever platform they have, to encourage people to

0:36:26.120 --> 0:36:29.680
<v Speaker 4>continue to sign and support because the ultimate goal is

0:36:29.760 --> 0:36:33.320
<v Speaker 4>exoneration and that has not been met and all the

0:36:33.400 --> 0:36:36.560
<v Speaker 4>support we can gather will be highly appreciated.

0:36:37.200 --> 0:36:39.320
<v Speaker 1>Well, we'll have that length in the episode Bier for

0:36:39.400 --> 0:36:42.239
<v Speaker 1>folks to scroll down and sign. And Eric has done

0:36:42.239 --> 0:36:44.920
<v Speaker 1>a lot of good, but this time this is just

0:36:45.040 --> 0:36:47.520
<v Speaker 1>bizarre and straight up wrong, and I'd like to encourage

0:36:47.560 --> 0:36:50.400
<v Speaker 1>him to do the right thing. So please join me

0:36:50.480 --> 0:36:53.719
<v Speaker 1>in signing that petition. And with that, we're now going

0:36:53.800 --> 0:36:55.239
<v Speaker 1>to go to my favorite part of the show. It's

0:36:55.280 --> 0:36:59.239
<v Speaker 1>called course closing arguments and terrence. If it's starry with you.

0:36:59.320 --> 0:37:01.440
<v Speaker 1>I'd like to use the closing that you had recorded

0:37:01.560 --> 0:37:04.880
<v Speaker 1>while you were still in prison. It's a straight up

0:37:05.000 --> 0:37:08.120
<v Speaker 1>appeal to the e Gunzales, and I think it still

0:37:08.200 --> 0:37:10.480
<v Speaker 1>rings true today. Is that all right with you?

0:37:11.400 --> 0:37:15.840
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely? Because I believe that it's still relevant. But in

0:37:16.000 --> 0:37:21.040
<v Speaker 4>closing this interview, I would like the listeners to ask themselves,

0:37:22.239 --> 0:37:28.160
<v Speaker 4>if you do not believe that I am innocent, and

0:37:28.280 --> 0:37:32.520
<v Speaker 4>you do not believe or foresee that eventually I will

0:37:32.560 --> 0:37:39.400
<v Speaker 4>be victorious and exonerating myself, why would you be preoccupied

0:37:39.960 --> 0:37:45.280
<v Speaker 4>with me signing a waiver for civil liability. A guilty

0:37:45.320 --> 0:37:47.200
<v Speaker 4>person can't sue anybody for anything.

0:37:49.080 --> 0:37:51.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, as you guys know, I'm terrist right. You just

0:37:51.640 --> 0:37:54.040
<v Speaker 2>heard my story and how I got wrong fully convicted,

0:37:54.520 --> 0:37:58.480
<v Speaker 2>speaking directly to Erigan Zales having the opportunity to do so,

0:37:59.520 --> 0:38:03.040
<v Speaker 2>Rikan Zalen. I read an article that you did in

0:38:03.120 --> 0:38:07.839
<v Speaker 2>the Marshal Project from September twenty nineteen. It was by

0:38:08.120 --> 0:38:11.160
<v Speaker 2>Tom Robin. In that article, you said that in nineteen

0:38:11.239 --> 0:38:13.759
<v Speaker 2>ninety six, when you were just starting out as a

0:38:13.840 --> 0:38:18.640
<v Speaker 2>junior prosecutor, your brother was killed. You was twenty seven

0:38:18.719 --> 0:38:21.480
<v Speaker 2>years old at the time. You talked about how your

0:38:21.520 --> 0:38:25.120
<v Speaker 2>father never got over it. When the man convicted of

0:38:25.239 --> 0:38:28.799
<v Speaker 2>shooting your brother came up for parole after serving ten years,

0:38:29.120 --> 0:38:33.160
<v Speaker 2>your father opposed release. After two more years, the parole

0:38:33.239 --> 0:38:36.640
<v Speaker 2>bore granted releasing. You said that when that process was over,

0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:40.239
<v Speaker 2>knowing that the guy was punished and that your father

0:38:40.320 --> 0:38:43.239
<v Speaker 2>didn't have to go to any more parole hearings, be

0:38:43.320 --> 0:38:46.280
<v Speaker 2>able to sense a closure. I'm sorry for your loss.

0:38:46.760 --> 0:38:49.600
<v Speaker 2>I lost the wife to gun violence. On March's thirtieth,

0:38:49.880 --> 0:38:52.640
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety four. My wife was shot in the head

0:38:52.680 --> 0:38:55.160
<v Speaker 2>in the East New York session of Brooklyn by stray bullet.

0:38:55.560 --> 0:38:58.200
<v Speaker 2>No one was ever arrested for her murder. So I

0:38:58.360 --> 0:39:02.000
<v Speaker 2>understand that you also said that you believe in the

0:39:02.080 --> 0:39:04.759
<v Speaker 2>letter of the law, and that is what the law

0:39:04.800 --> 0:39:07.840
<v Speaker 2>allowed in your brother's case, and your family had moved on.

0:39:08.680 --> 0:39:12.520
<v Speaker 2>On October nineth, nineteen ninety I was falsely arrested for

0:39:12.600 --> 0:39:15.640
<v Speaker 2>a crime that never happened. So far, I have already

0:39:15.719 --> 0:39:18.360
<v Speaker 2>served very close to three times that of which the

0:39:18.440 --> 0:39:21.960
<v Speaker 2>person served that killed your brother. In my case, no

0:39:22.080 --> 0:39:25.640
<v Speaker 2>one suffered a scratch. Your office is well aware of

0:39:25.719 --> 0:39:29.000
<v Speaker 2>the circumstances around in this case. Aside from the legal

0:39:29.080 --> 0:39:33.080
<v Speaker 2>issues that clearly demonstrate I am wrongfully convicted. Your office,

0:39:33.400 --> 0:39:37.240
<v Speaker 2>through their own investigation, is in possession of many statements

0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:41.600
<v Speaker 2>from witnesses exonerating me. There is not one single thread

0:39:41.840 --> 0:39:45.759
<v Speaker 2>of physical evidence against me. The rule of law that

0:39:45.920 --> 0:39:48.759
<v Speaker 2>you said you believe in, it does not allow for

0:39:48.880 --> 0:39:52.960
<v Speaker 2>the continued imprisonment of innocent people. In the same article,

0:39:53.440 --> 0:39:56.440
<v Speaker 2>you said that people who were convicted when they were

0:39:56.520 --> 0:40:00.480
<v Speaker 2>twenty three years old or younger, your office will consider

0:40:00.640 --> 0:40:04.640
<v Speaker 2>support for role for individuals who were twenty three years

0:40:04.719 --> 0:40:07.479
<v Speaker 2>were younger at the time of samsons. I was twenty

0:40:07.560 --> 0:40:10.200
<v Speaker 2>three years old. I am sentence the seventy five years

0:40:10.239 --> 0:40:14.400
<v Speaker 2>in life. You talked about promoting trust in the priminal

0:40:14.560 --> 0:40:18.440
<v Speaker 2>justice system. It is time for you to practice what

0:40:18.560 --> 0:40:24.279
<v Speaker 2>you preach. Everic Gonzales, if you are unsatisfied with the

0:40:24.360 --> 0:40:27.960
<v Speaker 2>evidence that demonstrates that I'm wrong pre condicted and you

0:40:28.040 --> 0:40:31.920
<v Speaker 2>need something to hang your hat on, why don't you

0:40:32.040 --> 0:40:33.600
<v Speaker 2>hang your hat on your own words.

0:40:40.239 --> 0:40:43.320
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

0:40:43.400 --> 0:40:47.120
<v Speaker 1>thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn,

0:40:47.200 --> 0:40:50.600
<v Speaker 1>and Kevin Wardis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music

0:40:50.640 --> 0:40:53.400
<v Speaker 1>in This production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated

0:40:53.440 --> 0:40:57.040
<v Speaker 1>composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram

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<v Speaker 1>at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at wrong Conviction Podcast, and

0:41:01.600 --> 0:41:04.640
<v Speaker 1>on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava

0:41:04.719 --> 0:41:07.880
<v Speaker 1>for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow

0:41:08.000 --> 0:41:11.520
<v Speaker 1>me on both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason flam

0:41:11.880 --> 0:41:14.680
<v Speaker 1>Ravel Conviction is the production of Lava for Good podcasts

0:41:14.680 --> 0:41:16.920
<v Speaker 1>and association with Signal Company Number one