1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Back in the spring of twenty twenty one, Terrence Rice's 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: case was stagnating before the Brooklyn Conviction Review Unit, and 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: he reached out to us at Wrongful Conviction to see 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,120 Speaker 1: if he could create some pressure from the outside. The 5 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: interview was ready for release in October twenty twenty one, 6 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: when his legal team requested that we temporarily shelved the 7 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: episode as they were at a critical juncture in negotiations 8 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: with Brooklyn DA Eric Gonzalez. After nearly a year, the 9 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: interview has finally been cleared for release. Shortly after midnight 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: on October ninth, nineteen ninety, Terrence Rice finished a payphone 11 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: call outdoors at the Tilden Housing Projects in Brownsville, Brooklyn, 12 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: while using the walkway on the rear side of a 13 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 1: neighboring building to return home. A gun battle was taking 14 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: place inside and in front of that building, involving the 15 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: occupants of Apartment one f Police were already in the 16 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: area and began arresting those fleeing the shooting through the 17 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: back door. Terrence was swept up in the chaos with 18 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: three other men. While two of the three of all 19 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: always maintained that Terrence was not in Apartment one F. 20 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: The third man, Tyrone Flowers, allegedly was beaten into giving 21 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: a false statement supporting an uncorroborated police narrative. This narrative 22 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: alleged that, separate from a well documented gun battle inside 23 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: it in front of the building, that Terrence allegedly fired 24 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: four or five shots at police officers out of the 25 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: back window of Apartment one F, to which officers claimed 26 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: to have returned fire, and that Terrence allegedly climbed out 27 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 1: of that window totally unscathed before his arrest on the walkway. 28 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 1: Tyrone Flowers denied the validity of his alleged statement at trial, 29 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: but that same statement was used to rebut his denials, 30 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: even though there were no spent shell casings, bullets, broken glass, 31 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: or any marks on the building to corroborate this version 32 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: of events. The three officers testimonies went unchallenged at trial, 33 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: and Terrence was sentenced to three consecutive life terms for 34 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: a crime that never even happened. This is wrongful conviction. 35 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful conviction. I'm your host, Jason Flahman. 36 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 1: Today we have a man that I'm going to introduce 37 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: to you from behind bars where he remains after thirty 38 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: one years for a crime that never even happened, with 39 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: evidence that never existed, and with so many lies and 40 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: misconduct and competence thrown into this toxic mix that you're 41 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: literally going to go FLAWM, you're crazy. This can't be true, 42 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: but it is true. So, without further ado, Terrence Rice, 43 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: I've been wanting to share your story for a long 44 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,239 Speaker 1: long time now, and I'm I mean sorry, he's not 45 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: as strong enough word, but I'm sorry you're here under 46 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: these circumstances. But I'm really happy that you're here to 47 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: share this unbelievable tale. 48 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 2: Yes, thanks for having me. I highly appreciate you, not 49 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: just for my case, but for all the cases that 50 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,679 Speaker 2: you're publicized, because you're literally giving a voice to the voiceless. 51 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 2: And I just want you to know that my words 52 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 2: is insufficient to show and express my appreciation. 53 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: Well, listen, I don't even feel like I have an 54 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: option here. I mean, I have to tell these stories. 55 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: So first of all, let's go back to before all 56 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: of this happened. Tell us about what life was like 57 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: for you growing up in Brownsville, Brooklyn. 58 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 2: Okay, growing up in until the houses in Brownsville, Brooklyn. 59 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 2: It's just like most inner city neighborhoods where it's relatively 60 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 2: poor and people just living their life trying to do 61 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 2: the best things that they could do. Like far too 62 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 2: many other residents of the neighborhood, I've had trouble with 63 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 2: the law, you know, minus stuff, juvenile things like that. 64 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: The thing is, when you're young and you're running the 65 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: street and you're getting yourself into things that you don't 66 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 2: realize the impact that it's going to have later, you 67 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 2: make bad decisions. So leading up until my arrest for 68 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 2: this case, I just lived a normal life. I lived 69 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: with a female who was helping me get on my feet. 70 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: I had a parole to help me get a job 71 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: with a program that they call Wildcat. I took all 72 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 2: the Civil Service exam, and one of the places that 73 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 2: called me back with the New York City Department of Sanitation. 74 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 2: I actually went passed the test schedule for physical and everything. 75 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 2: The only reason why I'm not retiring as the New 76 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 2: York City Sanitation worker now is because I was wrawully arrested, 77 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 2: falsely convicted, and I've been. 78 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 1: Here ever since, and I'm just going to go back 79 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: now to give our audience a little context. So this 80 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: was nineteen ninety in Brownsville, Brooklyn. Both crime and police 81 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: misconduct were out of control. It's also important to note 82 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: that at this time cell phones were really rare, so 83 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: there was no unlimited talking text or anything like that. 84 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: Landline phone bills, by the way, could get really expensive. 85 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: So it's not a stretch to think that a guy 86 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 1: living in public housing would be using a payphone booth 87 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: on the regular. And if you remember, these phone booths 88 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: used to be ubiquitous, right, they were all over the city. 89 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: Now back to the day question. It's October ninth, nineteen ninety, 90 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: just after midnight twelve ten am. Police were in the 91 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: area already when they responded to gunshots at three thirty 92 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: Dumont Avenue that were happening between a group in the 93 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: hallway outside of Apartment one F and the guys within 94 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 1: that apartment who later became Terrence's co defendants, of course, 95 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: I'm talking about Tyrone Flowers and Daryl Smith, as well 96 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: as Randy Hampton, who ended up never being indicted. Now, Terrence, 97 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: you lived in the adjacent building three point forty Dumont, 98 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: which was about two hundred feet away, right, and there 99 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 1: was a little courtyard in between the buildings. So take 100 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: us back before this gun battle happened, when you were 101 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: making your usual phone call that you made to your girlfriend. 102 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 2: Okay, So my significant other, she worked a job on 103 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 2: Broadway Video and the ship that she worked was from 104 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: four to twelve, So my lifestyle was if we were 105 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 2: actually together or I wasn't going to pick her up 106 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 2: from work, we were routinely call on the phone. We 107 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 2: had phone booths located in the back of my building. 108 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 2: So I completed the call and on my way back 109 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 2: to my building, it was shot fired inside of three 110 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 2: thirty Do my avenue. Now I lived three forty. Do 111 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 2: my avenue, So as I'm approaching the rear of my building, 112 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,799 Speaker 2: the officers had to already be in the area because 113 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: they responded to that. Then some guys ran out of 114 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 2: three thirty do my avenue, the cross do my avenue, 115 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 2: and that melee wanted the officer to see me and 116 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 2: pointed his gun at me and told me to freeze, 117 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 2: get down on my knees, and basically walk towards him 118 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 2: on my knees. So that's what I did. 119 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 1: So I feel like I'm missing a connection here, So 120 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: it just was that you just happened to be on 121 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: the street and they were just like, let's just grab 122 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: this guy. 123 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: I think that anybody that would have been out there 124 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 2: that night, they would have at least they' sure, okay, 125 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 2: this is not somebody that got anything to do with 126 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 2: that shooting that's going on. So that's how that happened. 127 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: So is this literally just wrong place, wrong time, That's 128 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: really all it is. 129 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 2: Exactly exactly. I got handcuffed, they grabbed somebody else that 130 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: they said came out of the art of the building, 131 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 2: and two other guys was found inside of the department 132 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: in three point thirty du Mont Avenue, Department one F. 133 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 2: So those guys claimed that they was watching a football 134 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 2: game and shots came through the door. Some guys from 135 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 2: inside the apartment fire out, the police robbed, and when 136 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 2: the police told them to come in so they could 137 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 2: secure it erea, they came out. So it was a 138 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 2: total of four of us that was arrested. 139 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: Right, So, Tyrone Flowers and Darryl Smith were arrested from 140 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: inside apartment one F, and then Randy Hampton was arrested 141 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: outside and later ended up never being indicted. Though Tyrone 142 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: and Darryl however, were indicted along with you, and the 143 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: story of the shooting inside of three point thirty two 144 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: month was that the guys inside of Apartment one F 145 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: had been in a dispute with another group about a 146 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: girl earlier that same day, and in response, the other 147 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: party to that dispute came and shot through the door 148 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: of Apartment one F from the hallway, and the guys 149 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: inside one F then returned fire as the other group 150 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: retreated from the doorway of Apartment one F, the shooting 151 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: moved from there to the front area of the building. 152 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: The other party to this shooting was never found, arrested 153 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: or anything, but that gun battle inside and in front 154 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: of three thirty Dumont was well documented. I'm talking about 155 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: spent shells and bullets, bullet marks and bullet holes on 156 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: the walls and doors, and later ballistic evidence as well. 157 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: So they've got these other guys who were involved to 158 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: some degree, whatever degree, with the shooting inside and in 159 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: front of three thirty Dumont, and you, who was just 160 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: on the walkway in the back of the building without 161 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: a weapon. All four of you were brought down to 162 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: the precinct. I mean, did you think you had anything 163 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: to really are you about it at that time. 164 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 2: At that time, I'm still thinking of right. Once y'all 165 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: realized I'm on a walkway alongside my building, I'm out 166 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 2: of it. Unfortunately, the officers decided to fabricate a story. 167 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 2: They said that I was shooting out of the window 168 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 2: towards Dumont Avenue when they approached the rear of the 169 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 2: billion when they announced themselves, I allegedly turned around and 170 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 2: shot four or five times in their direction. They're saying 171 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 2: that they shot back at this window, and I came 172 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 2: out of the window and they just arrested me. 173 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: But unlike the other gun battle through the front door 174 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,079 Speaker 1: of Apartment one AFF, there are no shell casings or bullets, 175 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: no bullet marks or bullet holes, no broken glass from 176 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: the alleged return fire from police officers, nothing, in other words, 177 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: to corroborate this version of events. But this is three 178 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: police officers telling the story. 179 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 2: They charged me, actually with tempted to murder three police 180 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 2: officers and possession of weapons weapons that they found inside 181 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 2: of a closet inside the apartment one F three to 182 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 2: thirty do my Avenue. I hired an attorney immediately after 183 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 2: being arrested. He hired an investigator named is Robert Ladie. 184 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 2: Robert Ladee went to basically canvass the area. He came 185 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 2: back with approximately five witnesses at the time, and they 186 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 2: all said I had nothing to do with this crime. 187 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 2: And then he wound up interviewing my Coda finis one 188 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 2: of the gods that they snatched up and the other 189 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 2: two that was found inside the apartment, and these gods 190 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 2: gave statements saying, listen, we've seeing this guy around the neighborhood. 191 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 2: You know he was nowhere in this apartment. 192 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 1: But nevertheless, three officers identified you as a shooter. And 193 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: then Tyrone Flowers alleged that he was beaten into giving 194 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: a video statement supporting their version of events that you 195 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: fired either a revolver or a shotgun. And that's even 196 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: somebody who knows very little boy guns like myself knows 197 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: that's a big discrepancy there. That you supposedly fired out 198 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: of the window of apartment one f on the backside 199 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: of the building for or five times at the police 200 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: and then climbed out of that same window where you 201 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: were arrested when you got to the ground level unharmed, right, 202 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: but again, no bullets or shells, no broken glass, no 203 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 1: bullet holes or bullet marks. I mean, you can't have 204 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: a shootout and then magically everything just disappears. Right, that 205 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:27,119 Speaker 1: the physical evidence here doesn't support their version of events 206 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: for the simple reason that it was all just made up. 207 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: And No, it was standard protocol back then to test 208 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: people's hands for gunshot residue. Right, did they test your hands? 209 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 2: Nope, they didn't do that. They didn't do that at all. 210 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: They didn't test that window for anything. They didn't test 211 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 2: it for no finger plants. 212 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: Nothing, No, And yeah, why would they when they knew 213 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: that the results would have just disproved the story that 214 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: they were trying to tell. Right, you don't have to 215 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: be Colombo to figure this out. And I think it's 216 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: important to note that if you had done what they 217 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: claimed that you did, if you were actually crazy enough 218 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: to shoot at the police, you and that building would 219 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 1: have been basically Swiss cheese by the end of that interaction, 220 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: but instead not a scratch exactly. 221 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 2: Everybody knows that. Everybody listener knows that at our pointed 222 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 2: a time in the middle of the night, at the 223 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 2: height of the crack error in New York City, when 224 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 2: all of that violence was at its height, I would 225 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 2: have went straight to the moor. 226 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company. 227 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and is making 228 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: a positive difference in the lives of its employees and 229 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 1: in the communities where we work and live. In light 230 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and 231 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform, 232 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: the AIG pro Bono Program provides free legal services and 233 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. 234 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 2: So when we was in a precat and they separated 235 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 2: all of us, one of the CODA finishs was a 236 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 2: seventeen year o kid named Tyrone Flowers. He said they 237 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 2: beat him into making a confession, decentsionally saying that everybody 238 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: was in the apartment. Somebody shot through the apartment. The 239 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 2: officers asked him, was not in the apartment and he 240 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: was like yes. They asked him, was anybody shooting out 241 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 2: of the window with the shot done? Was anybody shooting 242 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 2: out of the window where he was like yes. So 243 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 2: when he made this confession, he told us he did that, 244 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 2: and he said, listen, I'm willing to give a statement 245 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 2: saying that they beat me up in the pre said 246 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 2: they made make the statement, so other two gods, they said, 247 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 2: I'm not in the apartment. Prior to trial, immediately after 248 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 2: receiving the statements, my lawyer filed what you call the 249 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 2: severage motion, and this motion is designed to have me 250 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 2: separate trial from the co defendents so that we would 251 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 2: be able to enjoy exculpatory testimonial saying that I'm innocent. 252 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: Right, because both Randy Hampton and Darryl Smith never waivered 253 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: that you weren't even in the apartment, let alone had 254 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: anyone fired anything out the window at the police. So 255 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: add those two testimonies to Tyrone's claim of being beaten 256 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: into giving that video statement, and that should have done 257 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: the job. But that's, of course not how things panned out. 258 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 2: During the proceedings prior to trial, I had a hearing 259 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 2: where my lawyer was not present. My lawyer filed the 260 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 2: affidavit with court saying that he was on trial in 261 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 2: my hand and didn't know when the trial would be concluded. 262 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: Irrespectful of that position, and I was not represented. The 263 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 2: judge did not a motion that he had before the 264 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: court for me to have a separate trial from these 265 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 2: guys so that at the trial they could come and 266 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 2: testify on my behalf, even if they didn't want to 267 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 2: testify on their own behalf at their own trial. So now, oh, 268 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 2: I go to trial. We went through a long colloquy 269 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 2: in court about why you're not giving me the separate trial, 270 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 2: and the judge said to my lawyer, you was here 271 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 2: during a court date that I examined him, and he 272 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 2: said nothing about testifying that. My lawyer was like, your honor, 273 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: that never happened. I was never president. I was on 274 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 2: trial in Manhattan, New York County. So they went back 275 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: and forth, and the clerk ultimately identified to the judge listen, 276 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 2: he was not here. So my lawyer said, this is 277 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: the first time I'm in court with all parties President. 278 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: I'm telling you I have exonerating statements from them. I 279 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 2: intend to call them. And the judge still denied the 280 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 2: motion and refused allowed him to testify. So they granted 281 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 2: the severance with the guy that made the videotape statement. 282 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 2: My position is that you granted that because you were 283 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 2: able to impeach him because he made a prior statement 284 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: saying something contrary to that the other they denied. The 285 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 2: severance stayed put Tyrone Flowers on the stand, and Tyrone 286 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 2: Flowers was basically up there hours whether or not what 287 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 2: he said on a video was true or what he 288 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 2: was saying today, meaning the time I was on trial, 289 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 2: he had a whole bunch of contradictions because, like I said, 290 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: on a stand, he's saying they was beating them up 291 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 2: in the precinct, and he was basically saying what the 292 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 2: officers want him to say in the video statement. The 293 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 2: officers asked him with that in the apartment and he 294 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: was like yes. They asked him, was anybody shooting out 295 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 2: of the window. He was like yes. My position with 296 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 2: that was the same thing as with the officers. And 297 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 2: what he's saying is true, where's the evidence of that 298 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 2: at right? 299 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: It always comes back to the fact that this version 300 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: of events is just words. Right, even though these words 301 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: were repeated by three police officers as well as allegedly 302 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: and this they say allegedly, but it's very credible, especially 303 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: in that era, that they were beaten out of Tyrone Flowers. 304 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: This narrative runs counter to all the physical evidence. While 305 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: your versus events is supported by the physical evidence as 306 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: well as by Randy Hampton and Darryl Smith. Unfortunately for you, however, Darryl, 307 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: as your co defendant, was not allowed to testify, and 308 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: Randy was never called by your lawyer. But what about 309 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 1: all the other alibi witnesses that your investigator actually interviewed. 310 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 2: One witness identified me by the phone of miss Brunton. 311 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 2: Another witness lived in three thirty through mont Avenue and 312 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 2: was like, I see who was in that, But he 313 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 2: was not there, He was not involved in that. So 314 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 2: these witnesses my lawyer never put on a stand. 315 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: This is just straight crazy. I mean, these other witnesses 316 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: were not presented your severance motion. Denial kept the jury 317 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 1: from hearing from Darryl Smith about your innocence, and then 318 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: with Tyrone's video statement impeaching what he was coming forward 319 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: with on the stand, this was not looking good for you. 320 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: Between the prosecution's tactics and the failures of your attorney, 321 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: it was basically a systematic removal of any evidence in 322 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: your defense. 323 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 2: So the people put the case on and it was 324 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 2: essentially the testimony of the officers. Once they got the 325 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 2: testimony from them, they went through the technical stuff and marshooting. 326 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 2: A whole bunch of evidence to establish that it was 327 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: a shootout between whoever was in that apartment and whoever 328 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 2: shot through that apartment door. They had pictures of the 329 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 2: bullet hole through the door. They had bullet markers all 330 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 2: in the hallway. They had spin shehells. Some of them 331 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 2: matched weapons that they found inside the apartment in the closet, 332 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 2: and some of them didn't. I guess those were guys 333 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 2: that shot in and they would never arrested. Every single 334 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: thing that they testified about with respects to these two 335 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 2: groups of people shooting at each other, they had all 336 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 2: of the physical evidence for that, but there was not 337 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 2: one single shred of evidence demonstrating that anything happened between 338 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 2: anybody at any window and a police officer. Now, one 339 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 2: of the officers actually testified that he'd seen the shotgun 340 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 2: and the shotgun was being fired, and this happened before 341 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 2: the revolver. Two of them said they didn't see a shotgun. 342 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 2: Not one single shotgun spent shell was recovered when they 343 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 2: recovered all of this other stuff. So evidence with respects 344 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 2: to why I'm convicted is non existence outside of the 345 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 2: testimony by these three officers you. 346 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: Know, And it's striking to me that they didn't even 347 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: bother to coordinate their stories. If I had to guess, 348 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: they must have thought, well, we're gonna convict this guy regardless, 349 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: So why are we even going to waste time trying 350 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: to sit around and make sure our stories match. They 351 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: didn't even bother to do that. So you have conflicting testimony, 352 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: all of which is nonsensical because it didn't match any 353 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: of the facts. You have a total lack of evidence. 354 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: It sounds like, I mean, it's a show trial. When 355 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: the jury went out, did you still feel like you 356 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: had a hope in hell of being acquitted. 357 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 2: It's not like I had a jury that was made 358 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 2: up of people that understand. It's a difference in the 359 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 2: way police is being conducted a lot of stuff that 360 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 2: people is outraged about now. It's stuff that was unfortunately 361 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 2: normal for me and God that grew up with me. 362 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 2: See back then they didn't have campus, But for us, 363 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 2: it was like, it's nothing for the police to pull up, 364 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 2: guns drawn, get down, get on a car, don't move. 365 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 2: That's regular stuff for us. So everybody don't have that view. 366 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 2: So when a person here, somebody in authority that took 367 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 2: the oath to uphold the law. Why would these guys 368 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 2: break that, Why would they get together and say that, 369 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 2: why would you make that up? So these juries, they 370 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 2: don't know that part of it. But to answer your 371 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 2: question directly, yes, I really thought that I had a shot, 372 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 2: because who is going to believe that they're going to 373 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 2: be evicted for something, Not that you got the wrong 374 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 2: person or any It never even happened. It never happened. 375 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: It's just an unbelievable indictment of our system in general. 376 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: I mean the fact that you're there now. Jesus Christ. 377 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 1: You've been in prison eight year years longer than you 378 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: were alive outside of prison. So this is insanity for 379 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: a crime that never happened. I'm gonna say it again 380 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: and again and again. A crime that never happened, in 381 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: which no one was hurt, and no one was touched, 382 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: and no one was harmed in any conceivable way, not 383 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: even their feelings were hurt. So okay, So the moment 384 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: that you were convicted, if you could take us back 385 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: to that must have been the worst moment of your life. 386 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 2: On October sixteenth, nineteen ninety one, a go before the 387 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 2: citizen Judge and a citizen judge basically said that I 388 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 2: am going to run twenty five years to life since consecutively, 389 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 2: which total seventy five years to life, because I do 390 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 2: not want any one of these offers to feel like 391 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 2: I'm punishing you all. At the same time, she sentence 392 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 2: in me like I was a serial killer. So when 393 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 2: I got sense to that, they immediately shackled me up, 394 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 2: wrote me on the bus, and I was shipped to Attica. 395 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 2: At the time I was convicted, if somebody voted the 396 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 2: capitated three officers in town Square, they will not have 397 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 2: been able to receive another day more than what I'm 398 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 2: saying to very good live in New York State Twitter 399 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 2: sales since October ninth, nineteen ninety I'm in green Haven 400 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 2: Correction Facility that's in Stormville, New York, you know, approximately 401 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 2: an hour outside of the city, outside of the Bronx, 402 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 2: and I exercise. I run marathons, I run, and I 403 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 2: also do mental exercises met to play in So I 404 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 2: do that I take that time out for myself to 405 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 2: get sprtually a line so that I will be able 406 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 2: to prepare myself for the visions of the day and 407 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:53,239 Speaker 2: all of this stuff that I got to go through. 408 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 2: You can only imagine this the negativity and the environment 409 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 2: coming from both sides of the fence. But I have 410 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 2: a very very strong support system, yourself included Daryl Hamilton. Unbelievable. 411 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 2: This guy spent a bunch of time in prison before 412 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 2: being exonerated. Since the day stepped out, this is the 413 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 2: type of work he've been doing. So I'm encouraged by that. 414 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 2: I have a wife whom I've been married to for 415 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 2: more than quarter of a century. People don't understand how 416 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 2: we do that because they can't stay together that long 417 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 2: out there, but she's definitely a rock and the kids, 418 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 2: and so it's a combination of these things. Of course, 419 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 2: you have moments that are harder than other moments. I 420 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 2: love mut I love to read. I'm always reading, and 421 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: aside from frighting my case, I helped a lot of 422 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 2: other guys. I made sure I got a legal research 423 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 2: certificate so I could work in Lord Library. I did 424 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 2: the IOC, which is basically an inmate ls On committee 425 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 2: where I represent population to the administration, bring the Conservative 426 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 2: administration back to the population. I do youth empowerment classes, 427 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 2: being involved in a bunch of different organizations, and everything 428 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 2: that I felt was significant, just trying to be the 429 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 2: best person I could be. 430 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: Well, Terence, all I can say is you have all 431 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: my respect. And so now with your post conviction litigation, 432 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: so much of this starts with the ineffective representation by 433 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: your trial attorney. 434 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 2: Right ineffective assistance a counsel. Of course, I raised that 435 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 2: on a pill. They didn't even acknowledge that I had 436 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 2: also the severge issue and how it was not constitutional 437 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 2: sound for them to deny the severage motion for my 438 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 2: codes Flinders. I have been in Brooklyn District Attorney's conviction 439 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 2: review you it for over six years now, and they 440 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 2: supposed to be investigating this rawful conviction. The district attorney, 441 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 2: one of the investigators, did interview the girl and she 442 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 2: verified where she worked and that I would call every 443 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 2: day and this was our lifestyle, but basically dismissed that 444 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 2: as if that has nothing to do because you not 445 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 2: an eye witness of the crime. I had an extensive 446 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 2: meeting with one of the sisters the district attorneys. I 447 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 2: explained to her. I said, listen, look how ridiculous the 448 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 2: story is. If the officers, all three of them, they 449 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 2: all talking about I'm not trying to scare them, I'm 450 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 2: trying to murder them. At what time when I came 451 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 2: out of this window actually towards y'all, did y'all decide 452 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 2: I was no longer a threat and nobody shot at nothing. 453 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 2: After the meeting, when I called my attorney, said the 454 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 2: digital attorney said that your story has problems because you've 455 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 2: told them during the meeting that the officers seeing you 456 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 2: on the walkway, made you get down on your knees 457 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 2: and walk towards them, and we had pictures. And if 458 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with the bottom of Terrence's pants from 459 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 2: the knees down to his foot, and if what he 460 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 2: said was true, that it would have been something dirt 461 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 2: or something on his knee. So I couldn't believe they 462 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 2: said that. So what I did was I called my 463 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 2: wife and acted, did she have a copy of my 464 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 2: trial transfrist really available? She said absolutely. I said, go 465 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 2: to officers Mackie testimony. He said that when he noticed me, 466 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 2: he made me get down on my knees, put my 467 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 2: hands behind my back, and walked towards him. I said, 468 00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: make a copy of that. Send that to the District 469 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 2: Attorney's office. They sent it to the district Attorney's office. 470 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 2: We didn't hear nothing back on that. So the next communication, 471 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 2: my attorney said, Terrence, the district attorney is saying that 472 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 2: during the meeting, you told them that you didn't know 473 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 2: miss Brunton at the time you got arrested. You found 474 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 2: out a bob when she became a witness. But the 475 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 2: record shows that this is who you called from the precinct. 476 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 2: I said, you gotta be kidding me. He said, no, 477 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 2: this is what they're telling me. So I pulled out 478 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 2: the police report from the phone call that I made. 479 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 2: The phone call that I made was to the house 480 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,360 Speaker 2: I was living at three point forty do my avenue 481 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 2: and to the females who I call every night. Send 482 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 2: that to them. When they sent that to the district 483 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 2: Attorney's office, they said, oh, we made a mistake. Somebody 484 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 2: wrote something in and we thought that they wrote Brunching, 485 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 2: but it really was somebody named Carr. So I was like, 486 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 2: all right, And it just been a back and forth. 487 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: And then and back and forth and went like that, 488 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: squabbling over these trivial details while they ig Nord was 489 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: glaringly obvious that this was a quote unquote crime that 490 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: never even happened. That building would have been lit up 491 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: like a freaking Christmas tree if Terrence had shot even 492 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: once at those police officers. But that's simply not what happened. 493 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: So while the squabbling continued, it appeared that some headway 494 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 1: had been made in negotiations, so Terrence's legal team requested 495 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: that we shelve this interview until they had a chance 496 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: to hammer out the terms of this release with the 497 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: Brooklyn District Attorney Ericnzalie. And I'm happy to report that 498 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: Terrence now joins us finally from outside the walls. So Terrence, 499 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: welcome back to Ronful Conviction. 500 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,360 Speaker 3: Thank you very much. I appreciate you guys having. 501 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 1: Me so Terrence. The moment that I finally heard that 502 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: you were out, I mean I was so happy calling 503 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: friends and family. Uh might call my colleagues here at 504 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: Roneful Conviction. You know Connor, our producer, I think he 505 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 1: this case has for some reason or other, this case 506 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: has bothered him as much as any and I know 507 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: he's been so invested in this, and so it's you know, 508 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: it was a great call with him, and we're all 509 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: just so happy for you. So I can't imagine what 510 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: this must be like for your family and of course 511 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: your wife Michelle, who's been such a credible and steadfast supporter. 512 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: Shout out to every one of them for their strength 513 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: through this unbelievable or deal in nightmare. 514 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 3: Absolutely, so take us there. 515 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: What was it like to be finally reunited with him 516 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: three decades on? 517 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 3: It was great. 518 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 4: The wife came up to the facilities, she was out 519 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 4: there with a couple of family members when I was released, 520 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 4: And from there we went out to City Isllen and 521 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 4: had lunch because they were out there all morning and 522 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 4: nobody got any sleep the night before, probably even before that, 523 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 4: but definitely not the night before, because they were excited 524 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 4: about coming to you know, be there to be in 525 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:56,719 Speaker 4: my support system. 526 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 3: I didn't actually feel. 527 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 4: Off the boat until I actually got home, you know, 528 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 4: and I was able to be like, wow, I'm here now, 529 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 4: you know. But because of the circumstances surrounding how I 530 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 4: got released. As great as the feeling is, it was a. 531 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: Bittersweet, right because even though you're out, justice really still 532 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: hasn't been served in this case, or if it's been served, 533 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: it's been served cold. Because despite the obvious, which is 534 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: that you are an innocent man, and again innocent of 535 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: a crime that never even happened. You still remain sort 536 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,959 Speaker 1: of a prisoner in a much bigger prison, right as 537 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: a par league. I mean, even recently you and I 538 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: were going to get together and you know you weren't 539 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: able to do it because of this, these crazy restrictions 540 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: that are put on you. Can you explain the deal 541 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: that you got from the Brooklyn DA. 542 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 3: Okay? 543 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 4: So they were trying to get my lawyers to convince 544 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 4: me to plead guilty and that they would reduce the sentence, 545 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 4: and I was like, absolutely not. I will die on 546 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 4: my feet before I live on my knees and say 547 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 4: that I am guilty of something that even they know 548 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 4: and it's obvious that never happened. And what they ultimately 549 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 4: did was foul the motion to have my sentence that 550 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 4: was running consecutively rank concurrent. So I had three twenty 551 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 4: five to life sentence that was ran consecutively which total 552 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 4: to seventy five years to life. By them putting an 553 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 4: emotion to run a concurrent that would effectively make my 554 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 4: sentence to twenty five to life. 555 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: Right, and since you had already done thirty two years, 556 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: that made you eligible for parole, but we know that 557 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: the parle board doesn't usually let anyone out unless they 558 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: admit guilt and show remorse, which you just said you 559 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: weren't about to do. So how is it possible that 560 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: you're here right now? 561 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 4: So the conditions for the sentence reduction would be that 562 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 4: the District Attorney's office would not oppose the motion and 563 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 4: that they will actually support my release. But I had 564 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 4: to sign a waiver for them not to be civilly 565 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 4: liable and layman's turn so that the viewers can understand 566 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 4: clearly they wanted to be relieved of any possibility of 567 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 4: me swing once I eventually be exonerated or have this 568 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 4: illegal sentence vacated, which was ridiculous to me because first 569 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 4: and foremost, just by you putting that on the table 570 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 4: indicatese that you know I have no business being here 571 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 4: and that you expect me to be exonerated. Because if 572 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 4: you had an ironclad case and you believe that I 573 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 4: was really guilty, how would a guilty person be able 574 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 4: to suit anybody for anything. So this, for me is 575 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 4: an indication that you know, eventually this man is going 576 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 4: to be exonerated. We just don't want to compensate him 577 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 4: for them thirty two years he served. 578 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember you explaining this possibility me a few 579 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: months back while you were still awaiting your hearing, and 580 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: I'm still justice pissed off that your release couldn't have 581 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: just been allowed by some normal legal channels rather than 582 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: this deal that feels like well, like you said, bittersweet. 583 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 4: I was led to believe that the judge would not 584 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 4: sentence me if I don't sign that. Ultimately, I signed 585 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 4: it because I said, at least it's not nowhere near 586 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 4: in a mission of guilt. It's just, you know, monetary 587 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 4: conversation and overcoming a civil law is much easier than 588 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 4: trying to overcome an admission of guilt for something that 589 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 4: I didn't do, you know, And I wanted to come 590 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 4: home with my family. So I signed it, and they 591 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 4: did what they said they were going to do, and 592 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 4: they supported my release. That was important because, as you 593 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 4: asked me, and I pointed out to you, a parole 594 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 4: board requires somebody to admit guilt. 595 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: Your courage to stand firm and your innocence is impressive 596 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: and inspiring. You didn't let them get you to bend 597 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: the knee, and that's just badass. If there's any silver 598 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: lines in these proceedings, it's that at least that aspect 599 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: of it feels like justice. And I got to say, 600 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: as a fella New Yorker, I'd be happy to do 601 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: right by you, as I'm sure everyone who hears this 602 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: story would, to give you the compensation that you deserve, 603 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: which I mean no number would ever be enough to 604 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: return to you what those three cops took from you 605 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: with their lives, you know. 606 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 4: For me, I will say that compensation does not buy 607 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 4: back the years that people lost. Right irrespective of whatever 608 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 4: amount of money, I do think that it is deserving 609 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 4: whatever is appropriate under the law, under the circumstances, because 610 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 4: it gives a person an opportunity to live whatever golden 611 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 4: years they have left at to going through the ordeal 612 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 4: and put their family in a position, if they're not 613 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 4: already in the position to live a better life generational wealth, 614 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 4: so to speak. To have to suffer trying to make 615 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 4: ends meet after going through that ordeal is another matter. 616 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 4: But personally, for me, it is the fact that I 617 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 4: am found guilty for something that never happened. 618 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 3: How do I begin a healing process. It's nothing to 619 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 3: do with money. Jason nothing to do with it. 620 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 2: Not for me. 621 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 3: It's getting to a place. 622 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 4: Where I'm exonerated, you know, I'm made whole and acknowledge 623 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,800 Speaker 4: that that ordeal should have never happened. I'm on parole 624 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 4: right now. I feel like it's prison without the cell, 625 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 4: without the bars. I gotta worry about getting pulled over, 626 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 4: and as soon as my name is ran through the computer, 627 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 4: I'm looked at immediately as somebody who tried to kill 628 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 4: three New York City police officers and it never happened. 629 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,800 Speaker 3: So I'm still living that ordeal. It is traumatic. My 630 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 3: next milestone is sixty years old. 631 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,880 Speaker 4: I have a parole officer. I have to be in 632 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 4: by eight o'clock at night. I can't leave the house 633 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 4: before eight o'clock in the morning. 634 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 2: You know. 635 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 3: So it's happy as I am to be able to 636 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 3: hug my wife without bars being in between us, be 637 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 3: with my family, eat good food and all of that. 638 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 4: It's still a bittersweet, and hopefully every Gonzales will see 639 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 4: that this needs to be corrected and move towards that. However, 640 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 4: whether it's with or without his support, I'll file my 641 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 4: motion and I'll have the evidence where it's obvious that 642 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 4: I should not have gone through the ordeal and let 643 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 4: the system work. You know, again, it doesn't always work, 644 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 4: and we need to. 645 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: Support you know, we'll be here to support you in 646 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: any way we can. And I know you had a 647 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: change dot org petition before you were released. Is that 648 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,280 Speaker 1: how our audience can show support? 649 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, I want to let people know where we're at. 650 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 4: I'll modify the change do or petition to reflect my 651 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 4: current status. However, I still encourage the supporters that sign 652 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 4: to share and encourage their supporters on whatever social media 653 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 4: platforms or whatever platform they have, to encourage people to 654 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 4: continue to sign and support because the ultimate goal is 655 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,320 Speaker 4: exoneration and that has not been met and all the 656 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 4: support we can gather will be highly appreciated. 657 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,320 Speaker 1: Well, we'll have that length in the episode Bier for 658 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: folks to scroll down and sign. And Eric has done 659 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: a lot of good, but this time this is just 660 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 1: bizarre and straight up wrong, and I'd like to encourage 661 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: him to do the right thing. So please join me 662 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: in signing that petition. And with that, we're now going 663 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 1: to go to my favorite part of the show. It's 664 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 1: called course closing arguments and terrence. If it's starry with you. 665 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: I'd like to use the closing that you had recorded 666 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: while you were still in prison. It's a straight up 667 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: appeal to the e Gunzales, and I think it still 668 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: rings true today. Is that all right with you? 669 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 4: Absolutely? Because I believe that it's still relevant. But in 670 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 4: closing this interview, I would like the listeners to ask themselves, 671 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 4: if you do not believe that I am innocent, and 672 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 4: you do not believe or foresee that eventually I will 673 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 4: be victorious and exonerating myself, why would you be preoccupied 674 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:45,280 Speaker 4: with me signing a waiver for civil liability. A guilty 675 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 4: person can't sue anybody for anything. 676 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 2: Well, as you guys know, I'm terrist right. You just 677 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 2: heard my story and how I got wrong fully convicted, 678 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 2: speaking directly to Erigan Zales having the opportunity to do so, 679 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 2: Rikan Zalen. I read an article that you did in 680 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 2: the Marshal Project from September twenty nineteen. It was by 681 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 2: Tom Robin. In that article, you said that in nineteen 682 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 2: ninety six, when you were just starting out as a 683 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 2: junior prosecutor, your brother was killed. You was twenty seven 684 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 2: years old at the time. You talked about how your 685 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 2: father never got over it. When the man convicted of 686 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 2: shooting your brother came up for parole after serving ten years, 687 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 2: your father opposed release. After two more years, the parole 688 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 2: bore granted releasing. You said that when that process was over, 689 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 2: knowing that the guy was punished and that your father 690 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 2: didn't have to go to any more parole hearings, be 691 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 2: able to sense a closure. I'm sorry for your loss. 692 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 2: I lost the wife to gun violence. On March's thirtieth, 693 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four. My wife was shot in the head 694 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 2: in the East New York session of Brooklyn by stray bullet. 695 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 2: No one was ever arrested for her murder. So I 696 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 2: understand that you also said that you believe in the 697 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 2: letter of the law, and that is what the law 698 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 2: allowed in your brother's case, and your family had moved on. 699 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 2: On October nineth, nineteen ninety I was falsely arrested for 700 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 2: a crime that never happened. So far, I have already 701 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 2: served very close to three times that of which the 702 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 2: person served that killed your brother. In my case, no 703 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 2: one suffered a scratch. Your office is well aware of 704 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 2: the circumstances around in this case. Aside from the legal 705 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 2: issues that clearly demonstrate I am wrongfully convicted. Your office, 706 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,240 Speaker 2: through their own investigation, is in possession of many statements 707 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 2: from witnesses exonerating me. There is not one single thread 708 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 2: of physical evidence against me. The rule of law that 709 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 2: you said you believe in, it does not allow for 710 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 2: the continued imprisonment of innocent people. In the same article, 711 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 2: you said that people who were convicted when they were 712 00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 2: twenty three years old or younger, your office will consider 713 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 2: support for role for individuals who were twenty three years 714 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,479 Speaker 2: were younger at the time of samsons. I was twenty 715 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 2: three years old. I am sentence the seventy five years 716 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 2: in life. You talked about promoting trust in the priminal 717 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 2: justice system. It is time for you to practice what 718 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 2: you preach. Everic Gonzales, if you are unsatisfied with the 719 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 2: evidence that demonstrates that I'm wrong pre condicted and you 720 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 2: need something to hang your hat on, why don't you 721 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 2: hang your hat on your own words. 722 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,320 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to 723 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn, 724 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music 725 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: in This production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated 726 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram 727 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at wrong Conviction Podcast, and 728 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava 729 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow 730 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason flam 731 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: Ravel Conviction is the production of Lava for Good podcasts 732 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one