1
00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:06,800
Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio.

2
00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,520
Speaker 1: I have an extra special guest. His name is Thomas

3
00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,919
Speaker 1: Lynn and he has a fascinating background in math and

4
00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:21,480
Speaker 1: science as well as journalism. He is the founding editor

5
00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,920
Speaker 1: of Quanta Magazine, which is a news and math website

6
00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:32,360
Speaker 1: founded and funded by Jim Simon's foundation UH. Simmons is

7
00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,880
Speaker 1: the founder of Renaissance Technologies, one of the most successful

8
00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,800
Speaker 1: hedge funds in the world. UH. Jim Simons and his

9
00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,920
Speaker 1: wife Marilyn run a philanthropic foundation where they are very

10
00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:48,720
Speaker 1: interested in math and science education, both at at the

11
00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,080
Speaker 1: most basic level UM educating American UM students to be

12
00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,840
Speaker 1: better at math and science, and as you'll see with Quanta,

13
00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,880
Speaker 1: at the very highest levels. I've been a fan of

14
00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,680
Speaker 1: the site for since it launched. It's really quite fascinating.

15
00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,160
Speaker 1: You don't need a PhD in mathematics or science to

16
00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,759
Speaker 1: be able to keep up with it. It's really intriguing UM.

17
00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,960
Speaker 1: Thomas has done a wonderful job finding some of the

18
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:21,679
Speaker 1: most interesting research and stories UH and breaking news about

19
00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,120
Speaker 1: the latest discoveries in math and science, and making it

20
00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,280
Speaker 1: very readable and very accessible UM. If you're at all

21
00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,600
Speaker 1: interested in science and math, and really all of us

22
00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,480
Speaker 1: should be. Then I think you'll find this conversation to

23
00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:40,480
Speaker 1: be absolutely fascinating. So, with no further ado, my conversation

24
00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:49,160
Speaker 1: with Quantum Magazines editor in chief Thomas Lynn. My guest

25
00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,600
Speaker 1: this week is Thomas Lynn. He is the founding editor

26
00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:57,880
Speaker 1: of Quantum Magazine. It is an award winning editorially independent

27
00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:03,960
Speaker 1: science and maths eight published by the Simons Foundation. Uh.

28
00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,760
Speaker 1: That is the philanthropic arm of Jim Simons, who founded

29
00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:12,800
Speaker 1: Renaissance Technologies. Uh. Thomas Lynne previously was the digital editor

30
00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,480
Speaker 1: for The New York Times. UH. He comes to us

31
00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,960
Speaker 1: by way of Cornell University and the Oregon State University,

32
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,519
Speaker 1: where he got his masters in teaching and literatures. At right,

33
00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:29,680
Speaker 1: that's right, fantastic Thomas Lynn, Welcome to Bloomberg. Thank you. So.

34
00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,799
Speaker 1: So you have a really eclectic background, and I want

35
00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,400
Speaker 1: to spend a little time, um getting into that and

36
00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,799
Speaker 1: find out how you ended up found in Quanta. But

37
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,720
Speaker 1: let's talk about your background. You're an engineer, you're a

38
00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,000
Speaker 1: former editor at the Times. How do you end up

39
00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,880
Speaker 1: um creating a magazine like Quanta. Yeah, it's a kind

40
00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,040
Speaker 1: of a crazy story and I think with as with

41
00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:56,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people who end up in in a

42
00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:01,800
Speaker 1: place that they ultimately really enjoy and feel very uh

43
00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,519
Speaker 1: satisfied with, and in terms of their careers, I sort

44
00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,200
Speaker 1: of fell into it. I mean I started out, you know,

45
00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,040
Speaker 1: in college, just not knowing what I wanted to do,

46
00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,280
Speaker 1: and I studied physics and I studied literature, and you know,

47
00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,919
Speaker 1: really was all over the place, and so ended up

48
00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,519
Speaker 1: sort of utilizing a little bit of the physics side

49
00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,320
Speaker 1: of things as an engineer initially, but then I also

50
00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,520
Speaker 1: wanted the human aspects I taught for a few years,

51
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,800
Speaker 1: and I realized, especially after nine eleven, Uh, I realized

52
00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:24,519
Speaker 1: that I wanted to be out there in the world

53
00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,919
Speaker 1: learning more about what's happening and helping up bring news

54
00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,639
Speaker 1: events to the broader public. And so I decided to

55
00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:34,240
Speaker 1: become a journalist and eventually backed my way into science journalism.

56
00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,839
Speaker 1: So so you end up at the Writer's Institute at

57
00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,600
Speaker 1: the Cuney Graduate Center, ultimately you start teaching journalism there.

58
00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,680
Speaker 1: When you look at the world of science writing, are

59
00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:50,600
Speaker 1: there many people who have both aspects the hard science

60
00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,840
Speaker 1: of physics and either literature or journalism or does that

61
00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,760
Speaker 1: make you a relatively rare bird. You know, I think

62
00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,160
Speaker 1: that people, a lot of people are are smarter than

63
00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:00,840
Speaker 1: I am, and when they're young and they realized what

64
00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,000
Speaker 1: they're good at, and they specialized and they either go

65
00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,440
Speaker 1: sort of the science track, or they've become you know,

66
00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,320
Speaker 1: humanities major, they study literature, they study you know, something else,

67
00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,360
Speaker 1: or they go into law or medicine or something like that.

68
00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:12,920
Speaker 1: I really just had a broad interest from a very

69
00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,880
Speaker 1: young age, and I loved writing. It's very interested in literature.

70
00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,880
Speaker 1: But I also had parents who were essentially physicists, and

71
00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,080
Speaker 1: I grew up in this very science culture kind of

72
00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,320
Speaker 1: environment all my family. I have a lot of scientists

73
00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,240
Speaker 1: in my family, and so there's always that part of

74
00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,000
Speaker 1: my brain that that works that way. So both parents

75
00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,919
Speaker 1: were physicists. What what was the dinner table conversation like, Yeah, No,

76
00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,560
Speaker 1: I was definitely pushed to go ahead in things like

77
00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,360
Speaker 1: math and physics in in school. I ended up studying

78
00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,120
Speaker 1: calculus after my freshman year in high school. And um,

79
00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,400
Speaker 1: and you know, so the conversations were about everything, but

80
00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,680
Speaker 1: there was definitely a scientific bent to a lot of

81
00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,120
Speaker 1: those conversations. And we had my mom loved puzzles and

82
00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,000
Speaker 1: we had puzzles all over the place in our house.

83
00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,800
Speaker 1: That's that's interesting. So you spent a few years doing journalism,

84
00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,279
Speaker 1: you end up as a digital editor at the New

85
00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,800
Speaker 1: York Times. What would then involve? Yeah, So initially I

86
00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,560
Speaker 1: started on the national desk at the time, so it

87
00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:09,279
Speaker 1: wasn't about science at all, and I was just a

88
00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,000
Speaker 1: journalist to learn about what's happening in the world and

89
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,200
Speaker 1: bring that to people. And uh, and that was great.

90
00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,080
Speaker 1: I mean the Times. When I decided I wanted to

91
00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,479
Speaker 1: go into journalism, you know, like many people, the Times

92
00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,599
Speaker 1: was the dream, right, That's where I wanted to be

93
00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:22,400
Speaker 1: and I was very lucky to be able to land

94
00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:24,600
Speaker 1: that that job when I did, And I started on

95
00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,560
Speaker 1: the digital side, which code really interesting opportunity in terms

96
00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,960
Speaker 1: of that interface between the newer technologies that we're starting

97
00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,400
Speaker 1: to change the ways journalism was done and sort of

98
00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,920
Speaker 1: the older traditional legacy print publication and there a lot

99
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:37,840
Speaker 1: of things were just changing. As a very sort of

100
00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:39,719
Speaker 1: radical time in a way. To be at The Times,

101
00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:44,080
Speaker 1: and I recall the New York Times being pretty leading

102
00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:49,560
Speaker 1: edge in terms of interactive graphics. Anytime there's a complex

103
00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:54,120
Speaker 1: news event, The Times as well as the Wolfs Rejournal

104
00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,800
Speaker 1: and later on the Washington Post would have these giant,

105
00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,240
Speaker 1: intricate um so Katrina and the flooding. I remember you

106
00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,359
Speaker 1: just kind of scroll through that and it was um

107
00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:06,720
Speaker 1: and now you go back and look at it that

108
00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,360
Speaker 1: at the time it was so advanced. Today that's kind

109
00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,960
Speaker 1: of rookie stuff. It's really bleeding edge technologies very much.

110
00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,120
Speaker 1: And then they were they were had a great foresight

111
00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,120
Speaker 1: in terms of starting early. They didn't necessarily have it

112
00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,240
Speaker 1: all figured out early on, but they started early. They

113
00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:22,479
Speaker 1: started getting stuff on the web, They started hiring people

114
00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,520
Speaker 1: like me to think about what we could do did

115
00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:29,640
Speaker 1: journalistically online that wasn't just replicating the paper. Remember working

116
00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,120
Speaker 1: on some of the Hurricane Katrina coverage and working all

117
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,960
Speaker 1: night because it was so important to bring people immediate

118
00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,000
Speaker 1: pictures of what was happening on the ground. And that's

119
00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,240
Speaker 1: not something you can get through a daily newspaper. Right

120
00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,479
Speaker 1: the print, listen, print is really important and and the

121
00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,760
Speaker 1: written word it really matters. But it's true, if a

122
00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,279
Speaker 1: picture is worth a thousand words, what is an interactive

123
00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,200
Speaker 1: graphic work exactly? So, so how do you get from

124
00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:55,719
Speaker 1: the Times to Quanta? That's a pretty big um I'll

125
00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,920
Speaker 1: avoid all the cliches. That's a pretty big leap, isn't it. Sure. Yeah,

126
00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,320
Speaker 1: And it's hard because I was at the Times for

127
00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,400
Speaker 1: almost eight years, and about seven a half years after

128
00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,800
Speaker 1: the National Desk, I worked on the Science desk for

129
00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,640
Speaker 1: about three years and learn a lot from the editors there.

130
00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:12,640
Speaker 1: And I think it was because I was on the

131
00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,920
Speaker 1: Science desk somebody from the Science Foundation reached out asking

132
00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,280
Speaker 1: did I know any good science editors who could help

133
00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,360
Speaker 1: them produce high quality science articles? And I sort of

134
00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:23,960
Speaker 1: scratched my head and I wanted to find out more

135
00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,280
Speaker 1: about who I should recommend. So I asked them about

136
00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:30,000
Speaker 1: this job, just to find out who. Yeah, no, but

137
00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:31,360
Speaker 1: and and you know, and and the thing is that,

138
00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,720
Speaker 1: you know, I was a journalist, so I was not

139
00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,000
Speaker 1: interested in going to do communications or PR that sort

140
00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,480
Speaker 1: of thing. And so but in talking to the Foundation,

141
00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,800
Speaker 1: I started to learn that they actually had this other

142
00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,800
Speaker 1: publication already that was editorially independent, and there was a

143
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,440
Speaker 1: possibility that whoever came into this role could do some

144
00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,560
Speaker 1: editorially independent science journalism. And so I got a little

145
00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,680
Speaker 1: bit interested in thought, well, what if we actually could

146
00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,240
Speaker 1: start a magazine and do something a little bit bigger

147
00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,040
Speaker 1: and really changed the way hopefully that people see how

148
00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,800
Speaker 1: science coverage is done. And and Quanta Online I linked

149
00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,000
Speaker 1: to it pretty regularly. I I love some of the

150
00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:09,480
Speaker 1: graphics that you guys do. It's pretty clear that this

151
00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:15,520
Speaker 1: is a well thought out, big budget specialty site. UM,

152
00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:17,280
Speaker 1: so it's not it's not that big budget actually, so

153
00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,000
Speaker 1: we have a really small team who that was very

154
00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,920
Speaker 1: very hard because well, let me then rephrase that it

155
00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,200
Speaker 1: looks like it has a pretty big budget because it's there.

156
00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,080
Speaker 1: There are a lot of you know, ge whiz uh

157
00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:35,959
Speaker 1: special effects, but it's pretty in depth UM coverage and

158
00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,600
Speaker 1: and a lot of the breaking news in math and science.

159
00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:43,080
Speaker 1: And I know that's almost a counterintuitive statement. It doesn't

160
00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,640
Speaker 1: just get you know, a rip and read off a

161
00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,640
Speaker 1: PR release. It's a deep explanation about here's what just

162
00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,760
Speaker 1: was discovered through this research, and here's why it's significant,

163
00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,880
Speaker 1: and here's how this fits into the long history of

164
00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,200
Speaker 1: this aspect of math or science exactly. And that's exactly

165
00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,400
Speaker 1: why I wanted to start this publication as I looked

166
00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:08,600
Speaker 1: out there at the offerings that most mainstream publications had

167
00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,120
Speaker 1: in terms of their science coverage, and it was a

168
00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,080
Speaker 1: little disheartening. I have to say, I mean not not

169
00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,720
Speaker 1: only the level of the lack of depth of the coverage,

170
00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:19,800
Speaker 1: but also to some extent, the choice. I mean, so

171
00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,720
Speaker 1: much of what you see is health and technology coverage,

172
00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,360
Speaker 1: but so little of it is fundamental basic science, which

173
00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,560
Speaker 1: is really where all of our knowledge comes from about

174
00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:29,400
Speaker 1: the world and by the universe around us. And so

175
00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,680
Speaker 1: I wanted to cover not only these subjects, which are

176
00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,280
Speaker 1: inherently the most fundamental, deepest, biggest questions we have about

177
00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:37,560
Speaker 1: everything and what's you know, what's in the universe, how

178
00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:39,679
Speaker 1: things work, but also covered in a way with a

179
00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,440
Speaker 1: little bit of depth, still tell engaging stories about it,

180
00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,120
Speaker 1: but actually get things right, do the careful fact checking,

181
00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,760
Speaker 1: do the careful reporting and research, take the time to

182
00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,280
Speaker 1: get the story right, and to tell the more nuanced

183
00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,280
Speaker 1: story of what's happening in science. Quite fascinating. So let's

184
00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,800
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that. I had a conversation

185
00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:03,600
Speaker 1: recently with someone, and part of our discussion was having

186
00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,920
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that we are living in a golden age

187
00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:13,640
Speaker 1: of physics, of new mathematical breakthroughs of astrophysics. We have

188
00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,800
Speaker 1: never known more about the universe either on an astronomical

189
00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,960
Speaker 1: level or at the quantum level than ever before. Am

190
00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,600
Speaker 1: I overselling that or is that a fair statement? I

191
00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,240
Speaker 1: think it's it's it's I think that's fair. On one hand,

192
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,839
Speaker 1: so we are learning more than ever. At the same time,

193
00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:32,880
Speaker 1: we're also learning how much we don't know, and I

194
00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,040
Speaker 1: think that's also where we are. So it's a golden

195
00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,440
Speaker 1: era in terms of being in this I think it's

196
00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:39,640
Speaker 1: very exciting the things that we can do now, whether

197
00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,120
Speaker 1: it's experimentally in terms of the theories and the math

198
00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,520
Speaker 1: that's being developed. At the same time, we're also hitting

199
00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,600
Speaker 1: the limits of what we can test experimentally in terms

200
00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,359
Speaker 1: of the largest structures and and thinking about the cosmos,

201
00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,640
Speaker 1: but also the smallest um you know, quantum level interactions.

202
00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,199
Speaker 1: We're sort of coming to a point where the theories

203
00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,520
Speaker 1: can no longer be fully tested primarily, and that is

204
00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,240
Speaker 1: leading to a little bit of an internal uh, sort

205
00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,200
Speaker 1: of soul searching, and and you know, there's there's work

206
00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,000
Speaker 1: to be done to figure out what the next revolution

207
00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,760
Speaker 1: will be in physics. So so the Dunning Krueger curve

208
00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:17,120
Speaker 1: applies to everything. You could say that so um, and

209
00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:18,640
Speaker 1: for those of you who are not familiar with that,

210
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,480
Speaker 1: just google Dunning Krueger and you'll you'll spend hours reading

211
00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,959
Speaker 1: fascinating things about the things we think we know but don't.

212
00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,920
Speaker 1: But but that's really kind of a fascinating area. As

213
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,559
Speaker 1: we approach the limits of what we can test in

214
00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:37,319
Speaker 1: the laboratory, does that mean theoretical physics or or moving

215
00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:42,280
Speaker 1: away from applied mathematics, the theoretical math becomes an increasingly

216
00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,439
Speaker 1: important aspect of our research. Well, I think that's where

217
00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,840
Speaker 1: the debates are happening right around this is you know

218
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:51,840
Speaker 1: both things, whether it's in the laboratory in terms of

219
00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,959
Speaker 1: looking at things that are really small, or also even

220
00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,680
Speaker 1: looking out what we can actually uh in terms of

221
00:11:57,679 --> 00:11:59,720
Speaker 1: the visible universe, what we can see, and of course

222
00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:01,440
Speaker 1: there's a lot that we can't see in terms of

223
00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,920
Speaker 1: dark matter and dark energy, things that we most of

224
00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,040
Speaker 1: the universe is universe is made up of stuff that

225
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,200
Speaker 1: we don't even know what it is, or we're just

226
00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,840
Speaker 1: not seeing what's there. And there's an interest. I'm trying

227
00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:14,760
Speaker 1: to remember. So I have two of your books, which

228
00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,680
Speaker 1: we'll talk about later, But there was just a debate

229
00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,120
Speaker 1: about dark matter, and part of the question becomes is

230
00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:25,280
Speaker 1: there is dark matter really the universe or dark matter

231
00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:29,120
Speaker 1: and dark energy together, or are our technologies and ability

232
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,440
Speaker 1: to perceive the rest of the universe not picking up

233
00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:34,640
Speaker 1: what what may or may not be there, and so

234
00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,800
Speaker 1: the assumption is it's dark matter or something else. How

235
00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,360
Speaker 1: much of this is a measurement issue and how much

236
00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,160
Speaker 1: of this is g We really have no idea what

237
00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,920
Speaker 1: x out there. Well, there there is a lot of

238
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,160
Speaker 1: indirect evidence that this stuff is out there. I mean,

239
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,720
Speaker 1: everything that we're observing indicates that dark matter and dark

240
00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,400
Speaker 1: energy does exist. There are some theories out there that

241
00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,800
Speaker 1: have I think slowly been they're they're sort of not

242
00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,360
Speaker 1: they're they're losing faver because the evidence is not supporting it.

243
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,720
Speaker 1: There's some ideas of modified gravity and and other ways

244
00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:06,520
Speaker 1: that you could explain away things like dark matter. But

245
00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:10,560
Speaker 1: I think most physicists agree that dark matter and dark

246
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:12,480
Speaker 1: energy exists, but we just don't know what it is,

247
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,280
Speaker 1: and we don't have the ability to detect it, and

248
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,839
Speaker 1: we can't see it because um, whatever it is, it's

249
00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:18,200
Speaker 1: not in it. Well it's it's dark, but it's not

250
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,800
Speaker 1: interacting with things that we can detect. But we we

251
00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,760
Speaker 1: continue to see that the universe continues to expand faster

252
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,280
Speaker 1: than it would if if visible matter and energy was

253
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,160
Speaker 1: all there was. So there has to be something driving

254
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,240
Speaker 1: galaxies apart no matter what direction in space, right, the

255
00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,880
Speaker 1: movements of galaxies. Uh, you know, there's got to be

256
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,000
Speaker 1: something that that's affecting that movement, and that's the dark matter.

257
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,520
Speaker 1: And then the acceleration in the universe. Uh is the

258
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,160
Speaker 1: dark energy causing that? So so let's talk a little

259
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:50,360
Speaker 1: bit about Quanta. You're a foundation based publication as opposed

260
00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:56,680
Speaker 1: to a subscription slash advertising UM format. How does that

261
00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,880
Speaker 1: make UM what you do a little different and does

262
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,320
Speaker 1: that afford you freedoms to go places that perhaps the

263
00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:08,200
Speaker 1: traditional media just simply doesn't have the time or patients. Yeah. No,

264
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,160
Speaker 1: I think it is liberating in the sense that we

265
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,679
Speaker 1: are both editorially independent and yet we are funded to

266
00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,960
Speaker 1: do this very mission oriented, very important kind of journalism

267
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,760
Speaker 1: making fundamental science accessible to all. Uh. There are other

268
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,360
Speaker 1: publications like this that are nonprofit, that are funded by

269
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,760
Speaker 1: foundations like Pro Publica for example, that are very important

270
00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,400
Speaker 1: investigative journalism. And these are the areas of journalism that

271
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,360
Speaker 1: have a hard time attracting advertisers. They're very expensive because

272
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:35,800
Speaker 1: it takes a lot of time to do it well,

273
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,680
Speaker 1: but they don't pay for themselves, and so they've been

274
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,800
Speaker 1: slowly receding from the commercial publications that that we have

275
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,800
Speaker 1: none of None of your headlines would would make it

276
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:50,120
Speaker 1: onto BuzzFeed just to say the least um. How neanderthal

277
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:55,320
Speaker 1: DNA helps humanity. The neuroscience behind bad decisions uh in

278
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,560
Speaker 1: newly created life form a major mystery. I mean, these

279
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,640
Speaker 1: aren't the sort of things that are especially clicky, but

280
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:07,520
Speaker 1: there are important parts of new research, and disseminating them

281
00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,880
Speaker 1: out from behind a payball is important, very much. It's

282
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,120
Speaker 1: very important that's freely accessible. And you know, we try

283
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,280
Speaker 1: to make our our headlines inviting, but at the same

284
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:16,960
Speaker 1: time we try to capture a little bit of what

285
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:18,840
Speaker 1: the story is really about, and so we don't do

286
00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,120
Speaker 1: the click bait, we don't do things that are overly

287
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,960
Speaker 1: sensational or misleading. So so really that raises the key question,

288
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,040
Speaker 1: how do you decide, hey, this is a good topic,

289
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,360
Speaker 1: this is a good subject, or this piece of research

290
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,800
Speaker 1: is accessible enough to those people who aren't experts in this.

291
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,880
Speaker 1: You know, it used to be you're a generalist a

292
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,920
Speaker 1: mile wide and not too deep. Now it's the opposite.

293
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,680
Speaker 1: Everyone is such a specialist. It's a quarter inch wide

294
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,800
Speaker 1: and a mile deep. How do you decide who to

295
00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:48,560
Speaker 1: appeal to? Yeah, first of all, I would say that

296
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,600
Speaker 1: there's nothing that I consider something that we wouldn't cover

297
00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:53,480
Speaker 1: in terms of how difficult it is. That that's something

298
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:55,040
Speaker 1: that we that's sort sort of our calling card as

299
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,960
Speaker 1: a publication. We we will cover the hardest, most abstract,

300
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,160
Speaker 1: difficult subjects out there, but we uh, you know really so.

301
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,400
Speaker 1: The one thing is that as journalists and as people

302
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,840
Speaker 1: who have been covering this, uh these areas for quite

303
00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:07,440
Speaker 1: a while, we do get a sense and we get

304
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,920
Speaker 1: get a sense of developed hopefully a good taste in

305
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,680
Speaker 1: terms of what are important and interesting stories. At the

306
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:16,520
Speaker 1: same time, we're not experts in these subjects, so we

307
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,000
Speaker 1: can't just say, oh, well, I think this is important,

308
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,600
Speaker 1: therefore we're just going to cover this. We actually talked

309
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:23,880
Speaker 1: to a lot of the true experts out in the field.

310
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:25,680
Speaker 1: We talk to many people, and not just people with

311
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,280
Speaker 1: their own pet theories, but to enough people where we

312
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:29,840
Speaker 1: can get a sense of okay, there there is this

313
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,760
Speaker 1: uh groundswelling of of of interest and level of excitement

314
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,200
Speaker 1: about this new idea and it's worth talking about. At

315
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,080
Speaker 1: the same time, it's worth talking about the caveats to

316
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:39,680
Speaker 1: and the limitations, and so we try to do that

317
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,160
Speaker 1: as well. So who are the journalists you have writing

318
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,840
Speaker 1: about these very hard subjects. Are they science people first

319
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,400
Speaker 1: who can write? Or are the writers who have an

320
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,480
Speaker 1: interest in science? It's really both. Yeah, so we have both.

321
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:53,880
Speaker 1: We have people who we have a former math professor

322
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:55,760
Speaker 1: who who is now a fantastic probably one of the

323
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,280
Speaker 1: best math writers journalists out there today. We have our

324
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,800
Speaker 1: our staff of the writer uh studied at least part

325
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,520
Speaker 1: way through a physics graduate program. But we also have

326
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,160
Speaker 1: our our staff math writer is someone who was humanities

327
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,560
Speaker 1: major and and did not have a math background, but

328
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,959
Speaker 1: now has been covering up for enough long enough and

329
00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:17,960
Speaker 1: who has been talking to enough of the top experts

330
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,800
Speaker 1: that he has this just crystal clear ability to explains

331
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:25,119
Speaker 1: some of the most difficult, profound, pure mathematics that you

332
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,760
Speaker 1: wouldn't believe. And so it's something. And you know other

333
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,320
Speaker 1: writers like Carl Zimmer, very well known biology writer. He's

334
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:31,960
Speaker 1: written for us a couple of times. He was also

335
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,359
Speaker 1: a humanities major as well. He's one of the foremost

336
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,000
Speaker 1: biology writers of our time, and and has has even

337
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,040
Speaker 1: written textbooks on evolution and things like that. So really

338
00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:41,679
Speaker 1: it can come from both sides as long as you

339
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:43,960
Speaker 1: end up in a place where you can do both

340
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,600
Speaker 1: understand enough of the of the deep science and write

341
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,600
Speaker 1: well about it quite quite fascinating. So no less an

342
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,960
Speaker 1: expert than Sean Carroll writes for a number of fine publications,

343
00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,080
Speaker 1: including The New York Times, Cold Quanta A revelation and

344
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,960
Speaker 1: what makes Quanta different than your typical math or science publication,

345
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,919
Speaker 1: assuming that there are still math publications, I don't know

346
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,240
Speaker 1: if there are. Well, that's one of the things that

347
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,800
Speaker 1: there really aren't any popular math publications, and that's partly

348
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,920
Speaker 1: why I wanted to start Quanta as well. That was

349
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,840
Speaker 1: very kind of Shawn to say. Then he also wrote

350
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,560
Speaker 1: the forward to our new science book as well, Some

351
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 1: Bob Meet the Wall of Fire, and he said some

352
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:24,800
Speaker 1: really kind things in there. But he also talked about

353
00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,359
Speaker 1: something that is is very true about sort of where

354
00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,240
Speaker 1: we are in terms of media coverage of science and

355
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,199
Speaker 1: and there are scientists who are the ones who are

356
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,640
Speaker 1: the experts who are doing this work often look at

357
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,320
Speaker 1: even though they do take the interviews and they talk

358
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,000
Speaker 1: to reporters. Uh, they often are quite skeptical of the

359
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:47,000
Speaker 1: way that the media treats that their work because unfortunately, UM,

360
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:51,520
Speaker 1: some publications don't take the time to carefully vet the work,

361
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,840
Speaker 1: and they cover things that either aren't necessarily good studies,

362
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:56,359
Speaker 1: or they don't talk to enough people to get a

363
00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,600
Speaker 1: sense of what's really going on, or they just throughout

364
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,000
Speaker 1: these headlines that make it seem like, you know, we've

365
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,280
Speaker 1: cured cancer, when really we haven't. We've learned maybe a

366
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,400
Speaker 1: little bit more about one specific aspect of sure. Look

367
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,000
Speaker 1: at look at how the entire anti vax are craziness

368
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:15,320
Speaker 1: just ran away from any rational thought and it was

369
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,080
Speaker 1: just a combination of people not doing their homework and

370
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,280
Speaker 1: of course a giant fraud in the land set to

371
00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,719
Speaker 1: start out. So the whole thinking behind this is, we

372
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:26,680
Speaker 1: want to do this right, we want to do it carefully.

373
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:32,359
Speaker 1: How long do you typically take to create, um, a

374
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,680
Speaker 1: full story. Some of these are pretty in depth, and

375
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,880
Speaker 1: it looks like they're not like I can crank something

376
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:42,240
Speaker 1: out in twenty minutes. These are not short pieces, right, No,

377
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,119
Speaker 1: not at all. And and you know, it really does

378
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,960
Speaker 1: does depend something. Sometimes there is news that we have

379
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:48,600
Speaker 1: to respond to quickly, and we have to turn something

380
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,400
Speaker 1: around in a few days. That's that's not that common though,

381
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:52,960
Speaker 1: in the areas that we're covering, right, So most of

382
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,040
Speaker 1: the time we do have at least a few weeks

383
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,400
Speaker 1: to work on these stories. Uh, some stories, some features

384
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,520
Speaker 1: you know that are a couple of thousand words, could

385
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,960
Speaker 1: take three weeks to do. Some pieces take a few months,

386
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,760
Speaker 1: just partly because we're still developed, the ideas are still developing.

387
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,600
Speaker 1: We need to talk to people, the work isn't quite

388
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,879
Speaker 1: completed yet. And often we're actually covering papers that are

389
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,679
Speaker 1: coming coming out on the archive what's known as the archive,

390
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 1: which is a repository of scientific preprint papers, which means

391
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,159
Speaker 1: that they haven't yet been accepted to a journal and

392
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 1: they haven't been peer reviewed. And yet this is the

393
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,159
Speaker 1: place now where you have open access to all sorts

394
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,440
Speaker 1: of important papers that then other scientists can just chime

395
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,080
Speaker 1: in and they can get feedback on it, and we

396
00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,720
Speaker 1: can also talk to other experts to make sure that

397
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,840
Speaker 1: a paper is worthwhile, that it's been carefully vetted before

398
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,120
Speaker 1: we cover it. So so let me throw a curve

399
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,679
Speaker 1: bowl at you, because I think the average person is

400
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:52,920
Speaker 1: unaware of what's going on in academia and publications. UM,

401
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 1: even though most of this research is funded by the government,

402
00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 1: is taxpayer funded? A handful began as a handful of

403
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,320
Speaker 1: research journals started to get brought up by one or

404
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,400
Speaker 1: two organizations, and they just kept getting brought up, and

405
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 1: eventually it reached the point where the vast majority of

406
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 1: academic publications are are behind a paywall. And it's not

407
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,919
Speaker 1: a cheap paywall. These are thousands and thousands of dollars.

408
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,560
Speaker 1: How problematic is that for the progress of science? That's

409
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,119
Speaker 1: a great question. This is something I covered for the

410
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,359
Speaker 1: New York Times back in two thousand twelve, had a

411
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,640
Speaker 1: story that was on the cover of Science Times. And

412
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 1: you know, this is UH, this really goes to the

413
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:39,120
Speaker 1: fundamental question of what is science for? Who is it for?

414
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 1: Who has the right to access and see the results

415
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 1: of the work that are tax money is going you know,

416
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 1: is paying for essentially, And so you're you're right that

417
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: there have been companies that have been extremely profitable in

418
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 1: taking the work of scientists, UH, taxpayer funded science and

419
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 1: the scientists who actually the journals and edit the journals

420
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 1: often for free, UH and turning around and packaging and

421
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 1: bundling these into journals, and and that they sell for

422
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:13,200
Speaker 1: very high price back to universities and normal academic libraries,

423
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 1: and exactly they have to buy these they make millions.

424
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 1: And actually so there was a big piece of news

425
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 1: recently when the the entire University of California UH system

426
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,679
Speaker 1: decided yes, we're no longer to to one particular publishers

427
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,439
Speaker 1: of here, which is really has drawn a lot of

428
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 1: the ire of of scientists and and people who want

429
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,359
Speaker 1: access to these the science that they're paying for. So

430
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,120
Speaker 1: I'm glad you see did that. Wouldn't it be just

431
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: as easy to have Congress to say, And and by

432
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,359
Speaker 1: the way, if you're going to take our millions of

433
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 1: dollars of research, you must publish in a no paywall,

434
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 1: peer review site. And this is this is for everybody,

435
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 1: not just for a few mercenary publishers. And and that

436
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:53,920
Speaker 1: puts the onus on the scientists. And I think that's

437
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 1: really where the the you know, Rubbert meets the road

438
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 1: in terms of there now people are the scientists act

439
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 1: the people UH doing the research are put in a

440
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: tough spot in terms of do they continue to submit

441
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 1: their papers to these very reputable journals where you have,

442
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 1: you know, these reputation points that affects your ability to

443
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 1: get tenure and to to sort of move forward in

444
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 1: your academic career to be published in these, uh, the

445
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,639
Speaker 1: most well known journals. Or do you then say, well,

446
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 1: we're gonna start going to the Public Library of Science

447
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 1: or to the new bio Archive, or we're gonna you know,

448
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 1: sort of skip that step. And is there enough of

449
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: an set of structure built around those newer forms of

450
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 1: open access science publications that can then feedback and make

451
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 1: it worthwhile for for researchers to go that route. Quite

452
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,120
Speaker 1: quite intriguing, you know, given that peer reviews are so

453
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 1: important to scientific papers, and given how successfully the Internet

454
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: seems to do that, one would think that there would

455
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: be some sort of a venue for people to bypass

456
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 1: these I know, it's a resume builder. I know, it's

457
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 1: very prestigious, and anybody who hopes to win subsequent um

458
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: research grants and or rewards wants to be published in

459
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 1: these places. But there's sort of a vicious cycle. How

460
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 1: do you break that if you want to disseminate this

461
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 1: wildly widely um and yet still allow taxpayer research to

462
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 1: find its way into the hands of public of the public, right.

463
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 1: I think that's being worked on now. There are some

464
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 1: groups and people who are leading the charge, who are

465
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: starting things like to buy archive, and who have been

466
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,439
Speaker 1: working on the archive for many years and and trying

467
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: to develop a better model for how to UM publish science,

468
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 1: how to vet it carefully, and how to ultimately make

469
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 1: it accessible to anyone who wants to read it. So,

470
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 1: so you said, the harder subject is to understand, the

471
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 1: more likely we are to cover it. Can you give

472
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,239
Speaker 1: me an example of that. Okay, that's sort of an

473
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 1: inside joke. That's that we don't we don't just look

474
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: at that. We don't decide what to cover based on

475
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: how difficult it is. But at the same time, we

476
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: don't shy away from that either. And so I think

477
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 1: the example that I like to give for that is

478
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 1: that one of our early viral stories, actually in fact,

479
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: it's still the most popular story that we've ever published,

480
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: is about this very very uh deep physics idea that

481
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 1: is um both a way it's a geometric way to

482
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 1: simplify calculations of particle interactions, a way in a sense,

483
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 1: to simplify what Fynman diagrams tried to simplify back when

484
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: Richard Fineman created them decades ago. Uh and and at

485
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:38,719
Speaker 1: the same time, this geometric approach could also lead eventually

486
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 1: hasn't yet, it hasn't improven yet, could lead to a

487
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: way to get things like gravity and space time to

488
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: emerge from from a more fundamental reality. And so this

489
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 1: was a mind blowing concept. The math itself and the

490
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: physics itself is very complicated, but this story was read

491
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: and shared so broadly, was viewed more than a million times.

492
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: It even made an appearance on um Conan O'Brien show.

493
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: He mentioned it in his in his opening monologue. And

494
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: so this has shared so broadly and widely. But it

495
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: was a mind blowing idea because people, I think a

496
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 1: lot of people hadn't necessarily grasped the possibility that spacetime

497
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: and gravity aren't necessarily the most fundamental aspects of our

498
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: universe and that could be emergent, and that there could

499
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: be things that could lead to a new math, that

500
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 1: we could figure out a new simple, well somewhat simple

501
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: looking geometries that could be underlying all of reality. Quite

502
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: quite fascinating. Let's talk a little bit about science getting

503
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: a little bit political lately. Isn't politics the antithesis of science?

504
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: So I think yes, Collectively, as a collective enterprise, science

505
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: is all about UH having ideas, UH, carefully examining them,

506
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: finding evidence to support it, and then if it's a

507
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: bad idea, throwing it out right, and if it's a

508
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: good idea, you keep working on you keep refining it further.

509
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,400
Speaker 1: Politics generally doesn't work that way, right, and you sort

510
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: of it's it's much more of a hodgepodge of of

511
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: ideas and people throwing and there's not a lot of

512
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: evidence sometimes supporting that, and so on a collective level,

513
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: I think that's true. Individually, scientists are human also and

514
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: have opinions and have political views, and so I don't

515
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 1: know that it's as as a human activity that it's

516
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,239
Speaker 1: completely divorced from politics, and certainly not from society. UM.

517
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: But I think that in the sense that science is

518
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: striving for truth and and and and finding facts, and

519
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: politics often does not do that. So I would say

520
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 1: that they can be quite different at times. So, so briefly,

521
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: why do you find that science literacy is so important

522
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: for people in society who eventually will be casting votes

523
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: that help determine our future. Right, Yeah, I know, I think. Um.

524
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: I think one thing is that uh, science is the

525
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: best way for understanding reality, right, And it's it's the

526
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: way that we've developed all the technologies, all of the

527
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: modern medicine, everything that that we enjoy now in terms

528
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 1: of the quality of life comes from that. And some

529
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: of the decisions that we have to make as citizens,

530
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 1: as a country, as a government have a scientific element

531
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: to them, and if we can examine those uh scientific

532
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,959
Speaker 1: facts carefully, we can make better decisions. And the other

533
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: way I think about it is, would you rather live

534
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: in a society where where people just sort of believe

535
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 1: whether they want to believe? Would you rather be part

536
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: of a community where everyone, even if you have disagreements

537
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 1: in terms of your ideologies, your politics or philosophy, you

538
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: at least agree that facts are facts. And I think

539
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: that's you know, one of the keys I think to

540
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: me is why I want people to be more scientifically literate. See,

541
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: I would like to live in a society where facts

542
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: are important and and reality matters. But for now I'm

543
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: staying in America so until we resolve that. Um. But

544
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: the funny thing is and I only say that half jokingly.

545
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: On the finance side, you have people like Ray Dalio

546
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: of Bridgewater and and other people who have made that

547
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: exact argument, with the caveat that if you put capital

548
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: at risk based on something that is not reality based,

549
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: well you're gonna lose money. And so what we see

550
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: in politics is there, at least so far, there's not

551
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: a penalty for believing things that are untrue. The beauty

552
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: of the markets are that feedback loop is very immediate. Politics,

553
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: you can go decades. Look at the people who claimed

554
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: smoking didn't close cancer. It took decades before that came

555
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: home to roost right. And I'll just add I think

556
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: this works on a personal level too. I think that

557
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: people who are uh scientifically literate or at least can

558
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: think in a more scientific way, can make better decisions

559
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: for themselves so they don't get into trouble, they don't

560
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: either fall for scams, or they can make better career

561
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: choice and necessartainly it can lead to to better options

562
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: for themselves. That's a fair, fair statement. Here's the credible

563
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: pushback we were going to get about this. And I

564
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: don't mean the flat earth people or the you know,

565
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: anti vaxers or global warming denialists. Very recently something came

566
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: out and now eggs are bad for us again. If

567
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: you remember, eggs were bad for us a long time ago,

568
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: and then eggs were good for us. And I mentioned

569
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: to somebody I was going to be speaking to you,

570
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: and their question was, Margarine, can we eat it? Can

571
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: we throw it away? It was good, it was bad,

572
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: It was good, it was bad. I understand the scientific

573
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: process is provisional, dependent upon whatever the next best piece

574
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: of information that comes along, But how do you deal

575
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: with the public that I just can't keep up with

576
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: all this? How how do you manage that sort of

577
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: expectation that people want black and white answers in the

578
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: world that's really very nuanced. And this is sort of

579
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: what I was alluding to. But for in terms of

580
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: the responsibility, I think that, uh, journalists and the media

581
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: have to cover science accurately and carefully. And uh so

582
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: the one thing is that, yes, there are many studies

583
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: out there. Uh there's there are stronger studies and they're

584
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: weaker studies, and there are there are studies that have

585
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: mistakes in them as well, and so uh, the journalists

586
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: who are covering and writing about science to a broader public.

587
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: Have to be able to differentiate between what are studies

588
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: that are have been done with the right um procedures

589
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: that have the large sample sizes that um, you know,

590
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: have been carefully vetted by others as well, and then

591
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: also even in talking about and writing about it um

592
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:43,239
Speaker 1: accurately and uh, carefully conveying what the study really says, right,

593
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: because again that's where you get the headlines that say

594
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: we've done this or margin is bad for your assault

595
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: is bad for you, r whatever it is, uh, and

596
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: it really they they ignore too often, uh, the nuances

597
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: of it. What does that study really say? What do

598
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: we not know? And what are we still trying to learn?

599
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: So what do you do with something like quantum physics

600
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: does when we're talking about sub sub atomic particles at

601
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: a certain point, does that just far beyond the grasp

602
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: of a lay person to understand? And how do you

603
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: cover something like that um? Or do you just shrug

604
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: your shoulders and say, no, one's going to ever understand

605
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: what a muan or gluon is amongst the lay population. Well,

606
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: so I would start by saying that even the foremost

607
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: experts physicists don't really understand everything about quantum physics, right, So,

608
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 1: I mean this is it's very difficult. It's a very difficult.

609
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: It's uh subject to wrap your head around. And yet

610
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: for us, that's the challenge we enjoy, right, We actually

611
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: liken the And I would go a step further to

612
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: say that not only are these subjects uh difficult, but

613
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: at the same time, they're actually some of the most

614
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: fascinating things that we can think about, because this is

615
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: the ultimate sort of the most fundamental aspect or layer

616
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: of reality that we can try to understand. And so

617
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: I would hope that everyone would be interested in want

618
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: to pursue some understanding of this, just for your own

619
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: to satisfy your own intellectual curiosity. And so I think

620
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: the interest is there. But you're right, it is a challenge,

621
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: and we love the challenge and we take it on

622
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: every day. So along those lines, how do you measure

623
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: the success of planta? I don't get the sense that

624
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: you're counting page views and clicks, given that it's not

625
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: just a simple um traffic issue. How do you figure out, hey,

626
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: are we succeeding, are we building a loyal audience, and

627
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,479
Speaker 1: are we making a difference in people's understanding of science.

628
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: It sounds like it's really difficult to come up with

629
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: a measure of that right now, that's a good question,

630
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: and so we uh never use traffic as a justification

631
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: for doing a story. We don't chase after clicks or views. However,

632
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: what we're really looking at is impact, right broader impact.

633
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,719
Speaker 1: Are we both covering the science that is important, Are

634
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: we choosing the right stories that ever, and are we

635
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: doing it in a way that it's accessible and it's

636
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: interesting and gets at the key insights in a way

637
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: that enough people will want to read it and learn

638
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: about it. And so there is a measure of of

639
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: reach as well. We do want the audience to grow

640
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 1: right now. We have see last year, I think we're

641
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: at over seven million people visit our site. Uh, and

642
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: it's it's growing year year to year very nicely, because again,

643
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: people are interested in these subjects and we're trying our

644
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: best to make it accessible for them. Um. So it's both. Uh,

645
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 1: the numbers are important. At the same time, we want

646
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: to make sure that the people who are reading it,

647
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: especially the people who are experts who actually know these

648
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,919
Speaker 1: subjects really well, also find it valuable and they they

649
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: find that that this is actually a resource that not

650
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 1: only they can use, but that we are actually accurately

651
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 1: covering the subjects for anyone who wants to learn more.

652
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: So what's it like working with the Simons Foundation? I

653
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: know that he has a deep and abiding interest in

654
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: mathematics and has set up a number of philanthropic UM

655
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: goals so try and not only focus on some of

656
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 1: the really sophisticated, deep progress in math, but also make

657
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: Americans a better UM mathematical society, early learning in math

658
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: and some advanced mathematical UM programs. How do you interact

659
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: with the with the foundation? Yeah? So, and I should

660
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: add that really the one of the founders and the

661
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,800
Speaker 1: president of the Foundation is Maryland Simon's Jim Simon's wife,

662
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 1: and she leads a lot of the efforts that are

663
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: geared more towards education and outreach and making sure people

664
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: understand and know more about science and Quanta falls under

665
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 1: that umbrella within the foundation, and so we I speak

666
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: with both Jim and Maryland, and probably a little more

667
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: of Maryland because that's that's uh the area that she

668
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: um leads UM. And you know, really the Foundation is

669
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: a fantastic place to work it's it's a place where

670
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: you have good ideas are supported, and I hope you

671
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: know people think that Quanta was a good idea. At

672
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: the same time, the freedom is uh, whether it's academic

673
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 1: freedom for researchers to study and pursue what they're interested

674
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: in and to learn whatever they can about the universe,

675
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: or our journalistic freedom to do real independent journalism UM

676
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,720
Speaker 1: while trying to to benefit society and make the impact

677
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: that we can. So so let's talk about the two

678
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: collections that you put out UM. One is on math,

679
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: one is on science. The first one the Prime Number

680
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 1: of Conspiracy. You have a lovely forward from James Glick,

681
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: who has written a number of books, perhaps most famously Chaos.

682
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: I think right, the master of science writing Chaos. It's

683
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 1: just a fastening. And his most recent book was on

684
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 1: time Travel, although I will describe it as somewhat skeptical

685
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: UM and and kind of a survey of all the

686
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 1: various thoughts on but but in this book you really

687
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:53,879
Speaker 1: go into a lot of details about various UM new

688
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 1: discoveries in there are these mathematical problems that have been

689
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 1: around for decade, in some cases centuries, and whether it's

690
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: computing power or something else. Prime numbers a perfect example,

691
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: the prime number conspiracy. Suddenly we're able to reach conclusions

692
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: that we couldn't have done a century ago or even

693
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 1: a few decades ago. Right, math is just I mean

694
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 1: pure math especially right, I mean this is this is

695
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: one of those areas where and then one of the

696
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: deep questions that you know, people have asked over the

697
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 1: years is, you know, why does math even work in

698
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 1: describing the real world? Right? Is math invented or discovered?

699
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: That's just one of those questions. It's a great diconomy, right, right,

700
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: and and so but the pure math that we cover, um,

701
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: you know, it is done again to build out this

702
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,280
Speaker 1: logical universe, right, to sort of see where where people

703
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 1: can explore. It's almost like it's it's not necessarily a

704
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 1: map to our actual reality. And yet, strangely, some of

705
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 1: the math that's being developed just again extending our our

706
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 1: logical universe does come up back to be being very

707
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 1: useful in terms of the physics and other science is

708
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 1: that we're studying. So this is just one of the philosophically,

709
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: I feel like that's one of the most interesting questions

710
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 1: out there. Why does it work? And and let's talk

711
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: about Alison Bob Meet the Wool of Fire. You have

712
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 1: to explain that title for people who may not be

713
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: familiar with the subject. Sure, sure, I picked the title.

714
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: It's it's one of the stories that's in the book, um,

715
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: because it's sounds kind of dramatic, right you have. And

716
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: the cover has shows two astronauts standing in front of

717
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 1: this hole in the ground which is supposed to have

718
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: metaphorically represent a black hole, and there's a ring of

719
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: fire around this, uh deep dark pit. Um. And and

720
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 1: this is actually one of the interesting theoretical questions and

721
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: physics that has come about in recent years. It was

722
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: put forward by a few researchers, including Joe Polcensky uh

723
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: who unfortunately passed away um recently. Um. But the question

724
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: is this, and it's also made that Stephen Hawking put

725
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: forth initially, which is black holes we know, okay, have

726
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: our have intense gravity and they suck things in and

727
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 1: the things from at a at a quantum level, contain

728
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 1: quantum information, and if something falls into a black hole,

729
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: you know what happens to that information. Especially after Stephen

730
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: Hawking uh discovered that black holes radiate and if they're

731
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 1: radiating what's now known as as Hawking radiation. Then eventually,

732
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 1: over a very very long time period, the black hole

733
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 1: will evaporate and disappear. And so what happened a lot

734
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: of information that fell into the black hole in the

735
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: first place. You can't physics says, you can't lose information,

736
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: and you've got to conserve information. And so what happens

737
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 1: to and so this is a paradox which was highlighted

738
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,919
Speaker 1: by this idea that that these researchers, including Jobisky, had

739
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 1: of a black hole firewall. And so the idea was, well,

740
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 1: if information that drops in, we can't lose it, maybe

741
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 1: there's a firewall that just incinerates everything before it gets

742
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 1: and so it never goes inside. And this also gets

743
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: at again one of the most fundamental questions right now

744
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: in physics, which is how do we reconcile quantum mechanics

745
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: with general relativity, Because general relativity says, if we follow

746
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 1: Einstein's um laws of gravity, which you know essentially is

747
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: described as as uh curvature and spacetime, if you fall

748
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: into a black hole as you pass the event horizon,

749
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,720
Speaker 1: nothing should happen according to general relativity, should you shouldn't

750
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: feel anything at all, but quantum mechanics says everything has

751
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 1: to be quantized, everything has to be done in discrete

752
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: bits and is particle interactions. And so that's where you

753
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: have the problem of the information coming falling in and

754
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: possibly disappearing when the black hole evaporates, and that's where

755
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: you get this firewall. And so quantum mechanics makes you

756
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: think maybe there has to be something like a firewall

757
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: or something that that's preventing the information from getting in

758
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:55,240
Speaker 1: and getting lost. And so there's this big conflict between

759
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: the two most fundamental theories that we have in physics,

760
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: and we don't yet know how to connect those two things.

761
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 1: It's quite fascinating. We have been speaking with Thomas Lynn.

762
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: He is the founding editor and editor in chief of Quanta,

763
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: as well as two collections of articles Alice and Bob Meat,

764
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: The Wall of Fire, The Biggest Ideas in Science and

765
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 1: The Prime Number Conspiracy, The Biggest Ideas in Math. If

766
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: you enjoy this conversation, come back for the podcast extras.

767
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: Will we keep the tape rolling and continue discussing all

768
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 1: things quantum mechanics. You can find that at iTunes, overcast,

769
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 1: uh Stitcher, Bloomberg dot com wherever your finer podcasts are sold.

770
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 1: We love your comments, feedback, end suggestions right to us

771
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. You can

772
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 1: check out my daily column at Bloomberg dot com slash Opinion.

773
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:58,240
Speaker 1: Follow me on Twitter at rid Halts. I'm Barry Rid Halts.

774
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:15,760
Speaker 1: You're listening to Masters and Business Fun Bloomberg Radio. Welcome

775
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: to the podcast, Thomas. Thank you so much for for

776
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 1: doing this. Um. I've been reading Quanta pretty much since

777
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: it first came out and kind of felt like it

778
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: was you and me and not a lot of people

779
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: um knew about it. I'm a little bit of a

780
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: science geek, um, but every now and then there's something

781
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: kind of intriguing and accessible, and so I would work

782
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: some of your your stories into my my list of

783
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: go read these ten things each morning than you reading that,

784
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: and uh, well, it was just really interesting stuff. And

785
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: I love being the person who gets to expose other

786
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: people to something new and interesting, and the work you

787
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 1: guys do is quite fascinating. I actually have lots and

788
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 1: lots of Jim Simon's stories, most of which I won't

789
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: share on the air, but I could share one, which

790
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: is I went to Stony Brook and undergraduate. I started

791
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: out anyway as applied mathematics and physics. And when I

792
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 1: was getting a tour of the university when I was

793
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: still in high school, I want to say, this was

794
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 1: like seventy seven or seventy eight. You get a tour

795
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: of the math department, or at least in the tour,

796
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: there's the math department, and there's this guy standing outside

797
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: chain smoking a cigarette with this sort of scraggly beard,

798
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: and I just remember thinking, who the hell is that, um?

799
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: And then you know, and there's the head of our

800
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: mathematics department, Jim Simons. I recall looking at him and thinking,

801
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: this guy is lucky he's an academic because if he

802
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:52,919
Speaker 1: ever went into finance, no one would give this guy

803
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: a dime, which is which is pretty hilarious considering how

804
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 1: spectacular the track record of renaissance technolo pologies Um has been.

805
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: I have other stories, but he definitely has an adventurous

806
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: spirit and he's such a code breaker. Just an amazing background, right,

807
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: so smart and and so many interests. Really, you know,

808
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: is modern day um, you know, um renaissance man. He

809
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,439
Speaker 1: really is. And and the fact that he said says

810
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 1: to himself. I'm gonna put together a hedge fund, but

811
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna do it in New York and I'm

812
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 1: not gonna do in Granwich, Connecticut. I'm gonna do it

813
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 1: out in he's there and needs to talk it. Um,

814
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: I've never been out there. I mean, I know the area,

815
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 1: it's past Stony Brook. And I'm not gonna do it

816
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: with traditional Wall Street people. I'm just gonna hire mathematicians

817
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 1: and physicists and computer programmers. I think that's the most

818
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 1: fascinating story in um in finance, just yeah, yeah, what

819
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: Wall Street is doing is interesting, but I'm going to

820
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: do it this way and and has been tremendously successful.

821
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: So it's it's so able to do the work that

822
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 1: we do because of it. It's in credibly inspiring that

823
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 1: someone could say the mainstream approach is not where my

824
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,800
Speaker 1: strength lay and I'm going to do it this way

825
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: and it ends up being wildly successful. It's it's you

826
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: gotta love a story like that. It's fascinating, So I

827
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 1: know I only have you for for a short period

828
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: of time. There were one or two questions we missed

829
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 1: that I wanna get to before I get to my

830
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 1: my favorite um questions. I know we we talked about

831
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: how long it could take to write a story, But

832
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: when you're trying to figure out, hey, will this make

833
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: for a good piece, what what goes into that calculus? Yeah,

834
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 1: I know, it's a combination of things. One is that

835
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 1: we want to make sure that what we're covering is

836
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 1: uh some of the most important and and perceived that

837
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: way by the research community. Itself important ideas that well

838
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: then lead to new other ideas and it's really pushing

839
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: things forward. So one thing is that. Another is that

840
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 1: you know, we do want to cover again attempts to

841
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: answer some of the big fundamental questions that really is

842
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: ultimately what we're about at Quanta. I think that's what

843
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,919
Speaker 1: I feel is a draw to anybody out there, whether

844
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: you have a science or math background or not, is

845
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: that you want to know where we came from, where

846
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,919
Speaker 1: the universe came from, what is in this universe that

847
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 1: that we're a part of, and you know, what is

848
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: reality made of? Really? And so if if you want

849
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 1: to know these things, you have to get at some

850
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: of these basic questions that the research that we cover

851
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: try to answer. I don't remember if this was Quanta

852
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 1: I read pretty broadly, but I think it was Quanta

853
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: that the discussion. So we have the general theory of

854
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: Big Bang, and there's a few holes in that theory.

855
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: How did that giant inflationary expansion happened? Blah blah blah.

856
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 1: But but some people have looked at we'll go back

857
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: before the Big Bang, and I recall reading I hope

858
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: I'm not getting this wrong. Someone had written a theoretical

859
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 1: physics piece that said that the idea of nothingness is

860
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 1: inherently unstable, and so you can't have nothingness forever because

861
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 1: eventually nothingness will just vomit out a universe. Because on

862
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: a human level, we understand what nothing this is, but

863
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: on a I can't even say galactic within the broad universe,

864
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 1: having absolutely nothing is just unbalanced and unstable and can't

865
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: be sustained for trillions of years. What was that a

866
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 1: quantity piece? So there there we did do a story

867
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: that looked at some new ideas. Um. You know that

868
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 1: in cosmology where you know, there's a lot of evidence

869
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 1: that something like cosmic inflation happened, right, Um, Although there

870
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 1: are questions as to whether there was really just one

871
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: Big Bang or whether there's more of a cyclic kind

872
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 1: of thing going on, or more of a big bounce,

873
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: right where things are expanding and then they end up

874
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: contracting and then they bounce and you had another inflationary period,

875
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:02,359
Speaker 1: and you know, things kind of go in that way

876
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 1: because because there was a you know, just one and

877
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: if there was nothing before that, then we'll eventually the

878
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: universe will eventually do. And what even entropy? What even

879
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: that the the initial ingredients to to to lead to

880
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: the inflation of the universe. Right, So there's a lot

881
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 1: of questions that are hard to answer um with with

882
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 1: the existing knowledge. Just wait a few trillion years and

883
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: we'll have all the answers. Yes, we either that or

884
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,839
Speaker 1: we love nothing. That's exactly right. So let me get

885
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 1: to some of my favorite questions that I asked all

886
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: my guests. Um, let's jump right into it. Tell us

887
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: the most important thing that we don't know about Thomas Lynn. Wow. Uh,

888
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 1: let's see, you do probably do not know that. In

889
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 1: when I was twenty, I wrote a bicycle across the

890
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: United States of America. Really, I have a friend who

891
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,879
Speaker 1: did that. What was that? Like? That was amazing? We

892
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 1: were young, We did not know what we were doing.

893
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 1: It was a group. No, it's just a friend and

894
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 1: I so college buddy, and either was between my junior

895
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 1: and senior years in college. That we took those those

896
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 1: months to ride from Oregon to New York? And how

897
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: long did the most amazing thing? Uh? It took about

898
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,879
Speaker 1: two months? Mm hmm? And where are you sleeping? How

899
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,919
Speaker 1: how you eating? Was? We? We went a whole hog

900
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: in terms of just putting everything that we needed to

901
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: live on the bicycles themselves. We had about fifty sixty

902
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 1: pounds of gear in our panniers in the front and

903
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: the back, over the front and back wheels and everything

904
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 1: we needed from the tent sleeping bags to a cook

905
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: stove that we went to the gas station to pay

906
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 1: five cents to get a little bit of gas to

907
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 1: to cook our meals. Everything we needed and clothing and

908
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 1: food and everything was in those bags and we had

909
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 1: quite an adventure. How long did this take? This took

910
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 1: about two months? And uh and and even counting for

911
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 1: the extra day we spent in Yellowstone National Park and

912
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: places where we wanted to sort of enjoy ourselves a

913
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: little bit. Um, did you did you map it out

914
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: in advance or was it just on the kind of

915
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:01,359
Speaker 1: wing on the road. Yeah. So back then, I mean

916
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: back before we had I know, GB, I right, No,

917
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: GB has no phones, smartphones, any of that sort of thing. Um.

918
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 1: There was an organization called Bike Centennial that used to

919
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: sell these different routes that you could take, and I

920
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 1: think the one we took. The route we took was

921
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 1: one of the longer ones. It was called I think

922
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: the trans America Route is about four thousand miles where

923
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: you went up from Oregon up to Idaho and Montana

924
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 1: to the Rockies and then you ended up winding and

925
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: going down the Rockies all the way down to Colorado.

926
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: We crossed the Continental Divide like nine times, I believe,

927
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: and then we started heading across the planes Kansas and

928
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: back up through Missouri back to New York. That four

929
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: thousand miles, That's that's impressive. Um. Tell us about your

930
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,280
Speaker 1: early mentors who impacted the way you looked the world

931
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: of of both writing and and science. Yeah, so many mentors.

932
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I have to really thank everybody

933
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 1: that almost all the editors that I've worked for and

934
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 1: with over the years, especially some of the editors at

935
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 1: the Science Desk, former editors. Now some of them like

936
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 1: Laura Chang was that was the desk editor at the

937
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 1: New York the science desk editor at the New York

938
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: Times when I was there. Jim Gorman was Science Times

939
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 1: editor at the time. David Corkrane. So many of these

940
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,880
Speaker 1: editors helped shape me as a writer and editor and

941
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 1: also thinking about the best ways to communicate science to

942
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: the public. So let's talk about your favorite books, be

943
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 1: they fiction, non fiction, science or not. What do you like?

944
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: I read a lot of different things, more recent books

945
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: would see. Right now, I'm reading viet Ton When's book

946
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 1: The Sympathizer, which I think a couple of years ago

947
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 1: when the Pulitzer to be as a fictional novel about

948
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:40,280
Speaker 1: the Vietnam War. I also recently read TV Stroke Guests

949
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 1: just published a new book called Infinite Powers. It's about calculus.

950
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 1: It's amazing. Whether you like calculus or whether you hate it,

951
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 1: you will love the book and you will learn things

952
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 1: that you never knew you uh could, or or that

953
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,879
Speaker 1: you wanted to. But you will be uh uh so

954
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: uh happy that you did. Wow, that's fascinat. Give us,

955
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 1: give us one more book. Okay, wow, so uh you

956
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:03,800
Speaker 1: know what those are more recent books going all the

957
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 1: way back. I was maybe two quick books that in

958
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 1: terms of my all time favorites. One is The Kingdom

959
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: and the Power by Gate to least, it's about the

960
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 1: New York Times during that era decades ago, about how

961
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 1: it served as both the fourth Estate as a publication,

962
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: but also the internal machinations and the politics and the

963
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: the internal sort of struggles within the newsroom itself. And

964
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,959
Speaker 1: it gives you a really really good insight into how

965
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 1: a major newspaper like The Times came to be and

966
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 1: operate the other and you were there, so did ring

967
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 1: read very very much fundings that decades later, I was

968
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 1: there and still many of the same general themes existed,

969
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 1: and it was really fascinating to read be reading the

970
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: book while also living it. Uh there And the other

971
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 1: book I would say that's one of my all time

972
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 1: favorites is The Peloponnesian War by Thucydities. It's about um,

973
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 1: the conflict between UH, the Greeks, UM and UH and

974
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:04,359
Speaker 1: and the Spartan Um back you know many centuries UH

975
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 1: and and UH and it you know to me that

976
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: that gets at some of the universal aspects of human nature,

977
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 1: of societies, of why we get into conflicts and why

978
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: we fight these wars. So, if a millennial or recent

979
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 1: college grad came up to you and said they were

980
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: thinking about a career in either science or math journalism,

981
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 1: what sort of advice might you give them? You know,

982
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 1: I would say, Um, find a place and people uh

983
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:40,439
Speaker 1: to work for and with that represent your values, that

984
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 1: are the kind of work that you want that you

985
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: see yourself doing, and at the same time be open

986
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 1: to learning. Right. I think this is not about millennials

987
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: or any particular generation. I think all young people starting out, UM,

988
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 1: come in you know, sometimes thinking that that they have

989
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:58,919
Speaker 1: a lot of things figured out, and yet the people

990
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: around you off and have a lot of experience, and

991
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 1: especially the ones who are looking out for you and

992
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:06,839
Speaker 1: have your back. Um, you know, it's good to work

993
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:08,399
Speaker 1: with them and listen to them and try to pick

994
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 1: up a few things, because ultimately you will be that

995
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: person down the road who will hopefully be giving a

996
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: lending hand to the next generation. And our final question,

997
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: what is it that you know about the world of

998
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 1: physics and science and mathematics and journalism today that you

999
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,839
Speaker 1: wish you knew twenty years or so ago. When you're

1000
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 1: really exploring this this area. Wow. You know what, I

1001
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 1: think I would say that I was just so new

1002
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 1: to it back you know, twenty years ago, I wasn't

1003
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 1: even thinking about journalism yet as a career, right. I

1004
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 1: think it was probably teaching at the time. Um. But

1005
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 1: I think that having gone through what I have and

1006
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: and having started this magazine and published these two books,

1007
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 1: I think that it feels very liberating in terms of

1008
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 1: knowing what you can build and the impact that you

1009
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: can create even when something doesn't currently exist that you

1010
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: uh want to exist, right, and so sort of thinking

1011
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: big and thinking, well, maybe we don't have this thing

1012
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 1: yet that in society or this publication doesn't yet exist,

1013
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 1: or at this company that you might want to start,

1014
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 1: and just having a little bit of that confidence and

1015
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 1: and putting in the elbow grease and and learning as

1016
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:21,840
Speaker 1: much as you can, but having the willingness to go

1017
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 1: out and make the things that you think the world deserves.

1018
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 1: Quite fascinating. We have been speaking with Thomas Lynn. He

1019
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 1: is the editor in chief and founder of Quantum Magazine

1020
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: as well was the editor of two recent publications. The

1021
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 1: first is The Prime Number of Conspiracy and the second

1022
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 1: is Alice and Bob Meet the Wall of Fire, both

1023
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 1: of which are discussing the biggest ideas in science and mathematics.

1024
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,439
Speaker 1: If you've enjoyed this conversation, well be sure and looks

1025
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: up an Inch or down an Inch on Apple iTunes

1026
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,840
Speaker 1: and you can see any of the other two hundred

1027
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,800
Speaker 1: and fifty or so such conversations we've had with people

1028
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 1: over the past five years. UH. You can also find

1029
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 1: the rest of our UM archives at Stitcher, Overcast, SoundCloud,

1030
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:19,360
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com, wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We

1031
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:23,359
Speaker 1: love your comments, feedback and suggestions right to us at

1032
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 1: m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. If you've enjoyed

1033
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:30,399
Speaker 1: this conversation, go to Apple iTunes, give us a five

1034
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:33,319
Speaker 1: star review and tell us why you like this. If

1035
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 1: you don't like this, we'll send me an email and

1036
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:39,759
Speaker 1: I'll i'll respond personally. I would be remiss if I

1037
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: did not mention the crack staff that helps put together

1038
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 1: this conversation each week. Medina Parwana is my engineer slash producer,

1039
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 1: as well as a conscience of Generation UM. Taylor Riggs

1040
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 1: is our booker. Attika val Brunn is our project manager.

1041
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 1: My Kilbatnick is my head of research. I'm Barry Ritolts.

1042
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 1: You've been listening to Master's in Business on Bloomberg Radio