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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We have been helping trying

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Speaker 1: to find a two year old little boy, Jordan. Bill Vow.

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Speaker 1: It's not the way I wanted the search to end.

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Speaker 1: In the last hours, the mother of the two year

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Speaker 1: old boy has been charged with homicide. Lord of Department

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Speaker 1: of Law Enforcement has canceled the Amber alert for Jordan Bellevue.

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Speaker 1: Jordan has been found in a wooded area behind me I,

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories, Thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. Yesterday we reported that the two year old

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Speaker 1: had gone missing, that mom had accepted a ride with

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Speaker 1: a man she didn't know. She knew him only by

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Speaker 1: antoine in a white Toyota Cameray with a black grill

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Speaker 1: with rosary bees with a air freshener hanging from the

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Speaker 1: rear view mirror. And he had dreadlocks, and he had

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Speaker 1: gold teeth, and he was wearing a baseball cap. Even

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Speaker 1: down to the description of his clothes, it was all

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Speaker 1: a lie. It was all a lie. Mommy insisting that

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Speaker 1: she had been knocked out with multiple blows to the face.

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Speaker 1: She was found ostensibly passed out unconscious in a wooded

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Speaker 1: area in Florida. Now we know it was all A

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Speaker 1: roofs according to police, that the little boy was not

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Speaker 1: missing at all, that Jordan's in fact, had been killed.

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Speaker 1: With me is Ellen Colauren on the story? Ellen, how

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Speaker 1: did they determine the mommy was involved? The police found

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Speaker 1: bloody clothes in the home, and in searching for the boy, um,

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Speaker 1: they discovered that she had actually legend him, made up

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Speaker 1: the whole story about him being missing, and hid those

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Speaker 1: roomains in the very same woods where she said that

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Speaker 1: she woke up. That's right, that's my understanding as well. Ellen,

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Speaker 1: twenty one year old mom Shourie Stinson was extremely deceptive,

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Speaker 1: according to Logo Police Lieutenant Randall Cheney. He says during

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Speaker 1: a news conference that Stinson lied to police. Ashley Wilcott,

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Speaker 1: juvenile judge, lawyer, founder of Child crime watch dot com. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I know when I read this about baby Jordan being found,

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Speaker 1: I learned that Jordan had been in foster care. Why

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Speaker 1: in the h E double L did they give him

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Speaker 1: back to this mother now he's dead? Ashley? Right, So

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Speaker 1: in Florida, in any state, really, they return or reunify

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Speaker 1: a child with a parent if the child has been

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Speaker 1: abused or neglected, if the parent complete certain items to

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Speaker 1: show that they're not going to further abuse, to neglect

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Speaker 1: the child, or cure the grounds of deprivation or dependency.

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Speaker 1: And so in this particular case, it looks it begs

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Speaker 1: looking at the record and the good not the good thing.

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Speaker 1: When a child dies, then there's a right for meeting

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Speaker 1: it to get hold of the records to see what happened,

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Speaker 1: because clearly they now need to look back at those

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Speaker 1: records to see was this yet another system fail where

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Speaker 1: the child should not have been returned to the mother

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Speaker 1: because she admitted after the fact, yes, she was frustrated,

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Speaker 1: so she struck the child, causing his head to hit

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Speaker 1: a wall. Well, guess what, Nancy, you know as well

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Speaker 1: as I do, to cause a child's head to get

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Speaker 1: injured to that extent with the traumatic injury to the head,

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Speaker 1: it is not striking a child. It is really a

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Speaker 1: great deal force required. That's the line too. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum dreading to the Cold Case Research Institute, your

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Speaker 1: job is putting together cases that have been neglected or overlooked,

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Speaker 1: or simply the cops didn't know about it. For her

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Speaker 1: to say she became frustrated with him because of some

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Speaker 1: type of an injury to his right leg. She says

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Speaker 1: she struck the child in the face. You know what,

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Speaker 1: if anybody got near my children and struck them in

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Speaker 1: the face, they would be looking down the wrong end

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Speaker 1: of a gunbarrel. I can tell you that much. She says,

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Speaker 1: she struck the child in the face, causing his head

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Speaker 1: to strike a wall. That the blow caused the child

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Speaker 1: to have seizures during the night. Now I've gotten a

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Speaker 1: hold of the police half of David, and that's what

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Speaker 1: it says. That is total b s. Cheryl to have

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Speaker 1: seizures in the night, that must have been some blow

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Speaker 1: cheryld Oh, there's no question, Nancy. In the autopsy is

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Speaker 1: gonna answer a lot of questions for us, specifically how

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Speaker 1: many times that child was struck in the head and

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Speaker 1: just what he went through during that night before he died.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's breaking my heart on this to Dr

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Speaker 1: Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrists joining me also out of Flora.

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Speaker 1: This is in your backyard, Daniel. But she we we

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Speaker 1: don't know right now whether the bay Be boy was

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Speaker 1: dead or alive. Her mommy just laid him down in

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Speaker 1: the woods and left him, left him there. Yes, Nancy

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Speaker 1: it's a horrific crime, and just to think about the

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Speaker 1: suffering this child went through is just it's heartbreaking, really heartbreaking.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you just leave your child out in the

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Speaker 1: middle of nowhere. I mean, John Limley, wasn't this in

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Speaker 1: a heavily wooded area where she claimed she had been left.

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Speaker 1: In fact, she left the child there exactly. She mentioned

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Speaker 1: that when she woke up on Sunday morning, she was

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Speaker 1: in the middle of this sort of park setting and

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Speaker 1: her child was nowhere to be found. Well, you make

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Speaker 1: it sound so ideally. That's certainly putting perfume on the pig,

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Speaker 1: John Linley in a park setting. It makes it sound

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Speaker 1: like they went out for a picnic and whoops, he

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Speaker 1: wandered off. That's not what happened. She struck him so hard,

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Speaker 1: by her own admission, he had seizures all during the night,

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Speaker 1: and then his body just turns up in the same

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Speaker 1: wooded area where she was. Police find bloody clothes at

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Speaker 1: her apartment. Here's the other thing. Does anybody but me

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Speaker 1: remember Susan Smith and her elaborate story about how again

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Speaker 1: she claims the black guy comes up to her at

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Speaker 1: a stop sign in the middle of nowhere, and takes

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Speaker 1: her children and pushes puts the yeah for no reason.

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Speaker 1: Here we go again, same old thing. This time she

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Speaker 1: had this incredibly elaborate description of the guy that took

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Speaker 1: her son. Did anybody notice that the big lie she told?

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Speaker 1: What about it? Bober? I mean, look, you know, she's

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Speaker 1: trying to fill in the gap to the story, and

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Speaker 1: uh didn't work for Susan Smith, And it didn't work

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Speaker 1: for her either, all the way down to the name

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Speaker 1: that she made up for the for the culprit, as

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Speaker 1: many details as possible to make it seem like it

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Speaker 1: was real, you know. And that that that's the thing,

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Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick. If you're gonna lie, keep it simple, all right,

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Speaker 1: because you're gonna get all tangled up in your lie.

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Speaker 1: And that's exactly what mommy did here. Yeah. It's one

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Speaker 1: of those things, Nancy, where sometimes some criminals think it's

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Speaker 1: worth it to admit to some conduct, and maybe in

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Speaker 1: an admission and early admission of guilt will be admitigant.

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Speaker 1: But you're absolutely right, not in a case like this,

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Speaker 1: and especially not in a case or at least admitting

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Speaker 1: to some of the conduct even makes it more cruel

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Speaker 1: and more inhumane. Instead, of taking him to the hospital,

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Speaker 1: she took him to the woods to let him die

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Speaker 1: alone in the woods. So you're absolutely right, she did

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Speaker 1: herself no favors, but it also makes it easier for

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Speaker 1: us to prove that type of a case, so justice

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Speaker 1: will be swift sooner rather than later. Here's the thing

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Speaker 1: I guarantee, as Cheryl McCullum, they're gonna play this down

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Speaker 1: and she'll get something like volunteery or involuntary because I'm

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Speaker 1: telling you and I don't like it, but I've witnessed

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Speaker 1: it when it's an infant or a child's life. Somehow,

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Speaker 1: the mom always walk saw, she walks away. She might

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Speaker 1: get five years if it were an adult that she

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Speaker 1: killed and she plotted to kill them, Oh it would

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Speaker 1: be a different story. But Cheryl, she's probably gonna get volunteery,

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Speaker 1: involuntary and just walk But she is lying because those

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Speaker 1: bloody clothes tell a different story than what she's telling.

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Speaker 1: How long do you think that child suffered? Baby Jordan's

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Speaker 1: suffered with that evil mother years? Years. Need to hear

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Speaker 1: the bottom line, the person that is supposed to protect

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Speaker 1: you the most is your mama that failed in this situation.

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Speaker 1: She didn't do that she's a perpetrator. They took that

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Speaker 1: baby to save him and brought him back. And what

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Speaker 1: they're gonna have to show in court is, hour by

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Speaker 1: hour what happened to him. The seizures, the injury because

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Speaker 1: of the seizures, does fractured soul, the repeated hits, the vomiting,

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Speaker 1: ever happened to him. They're going to have to show

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Speaker 1: hour by hour and then let that jury vote. The

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Speaker 1: mother's arrest ends a two days search for baby Jordan's,

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Speaker 1: who had been reported when mommy first called nine one

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Speaker 1: one with her big lie. Little Jordan's body was found

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Speaker 1: late in the afternoon in the woods east of Lake

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Speaker 1: Avenue and McMullan Road, behind a baseball field at a

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Speaker 1: Largo sports complex. The police aren't devastated, but this is

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Speaker 1: what you can do. Police are looking now for any witness,

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Speaker 1: any witness whatsoever that can come to court, come to police,

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Speaker 1: even if anonymous, and say what they saw. And if

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Speaker 1: you know something but you're not willing to come forward,

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Speaker 1: think about this. The child's body was deteriorating out in

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Speaker 1: a wooded area, left dead or four dead by mommy.

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Speaker 1: If you have information, please called Largo. P D seven

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Speaker 1: to seven five eight seven six seven three zero. She

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Speaker 1: revealed that she used the liquid, which is normally like

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Speaker 1: eye drops, put it in his food, and she did

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Speaker 1: that without his knowledge. We don't have a clear cut

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Speaker 1: reason why she committed the crime that she did. The

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Speaker 1: crime that she is accused of is murdering her husband

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Speaker 1: with eye drops. No less, forget about the fact she

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Speaker 1: tried to kill him two years ago with a crossbow.

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Speaker 1: That's a whole another can of worms. I Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Local police perplexed about the death of the husband until

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Speaker 1: toxicology reports indicates something very very unusual with me. Now,

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Speaker 1: Ellen Colauren with crime online dot Com, Ellen, what happened?

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Speaker 1: Lana Clayton, who's uh churchgoing woman um in her fifties,

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Speaker 1: lives at an upscale home in South Carolina. She tells

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Speaker 1: police that she came into the home front after mowing

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Speaker 1: the lawn and found her husband at the bottom of

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Speaker 1: the stairs. She claimed that he had vertico and he

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Speaker 1: had been sick and then he fell down the stairs

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Speaker 1: and he was dead. But autopsy revealed that he had

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Speaker 1: a high levels of the chemical ingredient and eye drops

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Speaker 1: in his blood, and it turns out she admits to

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Speaker 1: poisoning him over the course of three days by putting

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Speaker 1: the drops in his water. That's right, This young wife,

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Speaker 1: a Bible study attending now charged with murder after poisoning

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Speaker 1: her husband by sneaking eye drops into his food. You

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Speaker 1: know what's interesting to you, Sheryl McCollum, director of the

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Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute. People love to talk about, Oh,

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Speaker 1: she went to Sunday school, a church go where That's

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Speaker 1: the first thing Ellen Claurin said. I even said, a

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Speaker 1: Bible study attendee. You know what this is. This is

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Speaker 1: why we do that, because you expect someone that is religious,

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Speaker 1: that believes in doing good, or should believe in doing good,

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Speaker 1: does something so awful. That hypocrisy, that dichotomy is what

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Speaker 1: is so irritating. I mean, in addition to the dead body,

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Speaker 1: but it really gets under your skin and a jury

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Speaker 1: is gonna hate it. They're gonna hate it, Nancy. But

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Speaker 1: it can also be part of her stick. It could

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Speaker 1: be part of her time. Of course, that's how she

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Speaker 1: wants to come off. Is this middle aids church going

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Speaker 1: sweet never been arrested before woman. But the bottom line

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Speaker 1: is she has attempted to kill her husband. Another time

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Speaker 1: she shot him in the head with a crows while

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Speaker 1: he slept. Now, if you just let that marinate for

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Speaker 1: a minute, Okay, anybody that can look at her the same,

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Speaker 1: I would have to question their sanity because the take

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Speaker 1: across bow and load. It ain't easy to aim at it.

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Speaker 1: Somebody that's laying down and sound asleep is stupid. So

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Speaker 1: for the thing to go off by accident or whatever

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Speaker 1: story she gave them is really difficult for me to believe.

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Speaker 1: And now in three days time, she goes back to

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Speaker 1: the cabinet, she gets the eye drops, she puts it

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Speaker 1: into food. For three days she watches this man gets

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Speaker 1: sicker and sicker and sicker. And she could have stopped

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Speaker 1: at it any time, and she did not. You know,

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Speaker 1: to doctor Daniel bober Uh forensic psychiatrist, and correct me

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Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, Dr bober To be a psychiatrist, you

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Speaker 1: have to be a medical doctor first, and then specialists

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Speaker 1: and specialized in psychiatry, right, yes, Nanci, Well that's very

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Speaker 1: irritating to the rest of us that want to diagnose

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Speaker 1: this ourselves. But okay, the eye drops, it's my understanding

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Speaker 1: just as a lay person that eye drops make your

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Speaker 1: eyes not red because they restrict the blood vessels, including

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Speaker 1: the blood vessels that look read or burst in your eyes.

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Speaker 1: And by pouring this into his food in large quantities,

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Speaker 1: that did the same thing to the blood vessels in

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Speaker 1: and around his heart. Yes, Nancy, tetra hydra lene is

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Speaker 1: the chemical and eye drops, and it works on a

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Speaker 1: part of the body called the sympathetic nervous system, and

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Speaker 1: the sympathetic nervous system is responsible for things like heart

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Speaker 1: rate and blood pressure. And yes, you are correct. The

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Speaker 1: chemical causes vaso constriction, or a constriction of the vessels,

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Speaker 1: and it does do the same thing in a more

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Speaker 1: general way which can cause a heart attack, stroke, coma, seizures,

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Speaker 1: and ultimately death. We are walking about a South Carolina

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Speaker 1: woman who now admits to spiking her husband's food from

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Speaker 1: July nineteen on spiking it not with poison arsenal rat poison, no,

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Speaker 1: with eye drops. Stephen Clayton was found with high levels

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Speaker 1: of tetra hydras alene in his system according to the

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Speaker 1: eyetopsy autopsy. I'm really amazed, actually, Wilcott, did they even

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Speaker 1: tested for that at the autopsy. That's not something that's

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Speaker 1: normally tested and in that bizarre So I was just

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Speaker 1: gonna say, obviously, I've never wanted to kill my husband,

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Speaker 1: because I certainly haven't googled how do I do it?

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Speaker 1: With eye drops? So it's really an unusual um way

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Speaker 1: to murder someone. First of all. Second, ball law enforcement

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Speaker 1: had to have had some kind of information from the

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Speaker 1: investigation indicating that, hey, this is something that might have

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Speaker 1: been used, because otherwise I don't think they would have

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Speaker 1: tested it in an autopsy as a standard autopsy, except

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Speaker 1: Ashley for the little crossbow, And I mean, how can

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Speaker 1: you paint that as an accident? What do we know

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Speaker 1: about that? Ellen Colorine tell me about the crossbow two

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Speaker 1: thousand and sixteen. She she's downstairs. She claims that she's

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Speaker 1: trying it's the middle of the night. She claims she's

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Speaker 1: trying to reload the crossbow. I don't even know what

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Speaker 1: she's doing with the crossbow in the first place, goes

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Speaker 1: upstairs to ask her husband for help, and then just

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Speaker 1: accidentally hits him in the head with the crossbow. Cheryl

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Speaker 1: McCullum as he's so desperate for love, he stayed in

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Speaker 1: it after being shot in the head with a crossbow

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Speaker 1: and surviving. Can we just go back to her statement,

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Speaker 1: I was trying to load it and then I shot

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Speaker 1: him in the head with it. Looks like you got

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Speaker 1: it loaded, sister, nice job. I mean, what are we doing?

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Speaker 1: Looks like you got it loaded. We'll take a listen

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Speaker 1: to this from our friends at Inside Edition. She was

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Speaker 1: a grieving widow who claimed her wealthy husband suffered a

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Speaker 1: fatal fall at home, but police say church going Lawna

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Speaker 1: Clayton poisoned him with of all things I drop, available

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Speaker 1: over the counter at every pharmacy in America. Court documents

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Speaker 1: say the fifty two year old mother of two confess

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Speaker 1: to administering the poison to him in his water over

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Speaker 1: a three day period. Millionaire businessman Stephen Clayton lived with

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Speaker 1: his wife in a South Carolina mansion that is a

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Speaker 1: replica of George Washington's Mount Vernon plantation. His wife's alleged

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Speaker 1: poisoning scheme was straight out of the two thousand five

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Speaker 1: movie Wedding Crashers Drops, Thank You. Owen Wilson puts eye

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Speaker 1: drops into Bradley Cooper's drinks, sending him running to the bathroom.

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Speaker 1: Funny stuff, but in actuality, the chemical in eye drops

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Speaker 1: works great on the eyes, but if swallowed insignificant amounts,

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Speaker 1: it attacks the nervous system and can be deadly. Chills,

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Speaker 1: um sweats, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea. Ah, I felt awful. Ginger

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Speaker 1: Watson knows what it's like to be poisoned by eye drops.

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Speaker 1: When she was a manager at It's a Hut Inleven,

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Speaker 1: a disgruntled coworker spiked her soda with eyedrops. She was

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Speaker 1: hospitalized but fortunately survived. Fifed an underlying medical condition. Or

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Speaker 1: I had gotten a little more of the drug um,

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Speaker 1: I could have been seriously injured or died. Now, a

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Speaker 1: product seen in so many medicine cabinets has allegedly been

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Speaker 1: used by a wife to get rid of her husband.

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Speaker 1: The dead man's family members said they are shocked and

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Speaker 1: mortified by the cause of Steven's death. All our family

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Speaker 1: and friends know how much he loved his wife and

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Speaker 1: how devoted he was to her. Well, here's the other

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Speaker 1: problem for her to actually Willcott Judge, lawyer, founder of

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Speaker 1: child crime watch dot com. She is a nursing employee

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Speaker 1: at the U S Department of Veterans Affairs. She knew

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Speaker 1: what she was doing She can't say, oh, it was

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Speaker 1: an accident. It's clear, the water is clear. I made

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Speaker 1: an accident. I didn't realize what I was doing. Not

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Speaker 1: uh m hmmm. She's a nurse employee. Yeah, And so

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Speaker 1: the prosecution is going to use that information, as we know,

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Speaker 1: to show that there was premeditation, right, that it was

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Speaker 1: a deliberate act, that she knew how to do it,

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Speaker 1: she knew what to do, she knew the chemical would

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Speaker 1: be bad, she knew how to poison him. And again,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't one day, three drops. It was over a

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Speaker 1: period of days, well planned by her. Well, the other

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Speaker 1: issue is money, Cheryl McCullum, Cold Case Research Institute. Why

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Speaker 1: do rich people have so many problems? Can't she just

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Speaker 1: go enjoy her money and swim a couple of laps

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Speaker 1: in their pool and let the pool boy bringer some

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Speaker 1: you know, finger foods. Why can't they just be happy?

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Speaker 1: Why are people rich people have the worst time with

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Speaker 1: their money, especially sharing it. Well, maybe that's why Walt

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Speaker 1: and I are so happy, we are so broke. But

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Speaker 1: here's the thing. This woman, again, it wasn't disappeared of days.

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Speaker 1: It was years that she tried to kill this man.

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Speaker 1: She's been plotting and stem and trying for years. There's

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Speaker 1: the thing about the motive. We don't know the motives yet,

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Speaker 1: but we do know she confess mighty quick, so the

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Speaker 1: motive is gonna become clear the more they delve into

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Speaker 1: her background. It's the same motive. All rich people have money, money.

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Speaker 1: They're like dragons uh in the Canterbury Tales. They will

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Speaker 1: kill to amass the money, and then they sit on

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Speaker 1: the money, guarding it like it's an egg for the

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Speaker 1: rest of their lives. Long story, short motive. Why didn't

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Speaker 1: you even say motive, Sharyl McCallum. You know, under the

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Speaker 1: law of the state doesn't have to prove motive. It's

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Speaker 1: either a boyfriend or it's or it's money. But what

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Speaker 1: about this? I love this. When it came time to

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Speaker 1: plan the funeral, actually will caught. She goes just has

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Speaker 1: to have it in the backyard. It's like a barbecue.

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Speaker 1: She had the funeral. She just did it in the backyard, Ashley,

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Speaker 1: or she did because she didn't care about him. She

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Speaker 1: killed them. She could have given a hoot. I'm surprised

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Speaker 1: she even had a funeral. Well, that's well put. You know,

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Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, California Prosecutor. Very often, when there's a suspicion

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Speaker 1: as to the cause or mode of death, cops look

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Speaker 1: at what goes down at the funeral. They didn't have

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Speaker 1: to look far here, Wendy. One of the things that

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Speaker 1: struck me about that backyard funeral is for a church

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Speaker 1: going Bible study lady, she did not even have it

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Speaker 1: in a church, and reminds me of one of the

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Speaker 1: best Billy Sunday quotes. Sitting in a church doesn't make

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Speaker 1: you a Christian anymore than sitting in a garage makes

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Speaker 1: you a car And in terms of being a mitigant

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Speaker 1: or an aggravant when it comes to sentencing, this is

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Speaker 1: going to be an aggravant. The callous nature of her

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Speaker 1: behavior after the fact will certainly come into play and

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Speaker 1: determining how much time she serves. This wasn't an isolated instant.

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Speaker 1: This was apparently a three day, sophisticated plot designed to

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Speaker 1: to cause his death. So this does not speak to

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Speaker 1: voluntary man's law. Ellen Laurin, have you seen this house?

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Speaker 1: It looks like the White House. Yeah, it's absolutely beautiful.

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Speaker 1: It's a million dollar home. Um and and on the

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Speaker 1: surface things looked things look pretty nice for this couple,

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Speaker 1: but obviously below the surface it was anything. But it's

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Speaker 1: just hard for me to get past the incident with

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Speaker 1: the crossbow two years ago. Now, what kind of a

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Speaker 1: mind does that reflect? Dr Daniel Bober Forensic psychiatrists don't

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Speaker 1: give me a lot of Latin terms. Break it down, Bober,

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Speaker 1: I mean, look at her m os number one a

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Speaker 1: crossbow and number two I drops. I mean, that's pretty creative.

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Speaker 1: You're dealing with someone who clearly doesn't feel a connection

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Speaker 1: to living things, especially her own husband. And you know

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Speaker 1: that funeral complete with Stakespeare and tiki torches. It's probably

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Speaker 1: not something that shows a lot of sympathy on her part.

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Speaker 1: So clearly, either you know, she had an ax to

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Speaker 1: grind with him and that's been building up over years,

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Speaker 1: or she's just someone who wanted to get the money

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Speaker 1: and get out of the situation. But either way, it's

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Speaker 1: pretty anti social and it's pretty psychopath Dr Bober. I

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Speaker 1: don't mean to prive, but are you married, okay, f

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Speaker 1: y I for your information. Whenever you do get married,

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Speaker 1: please don't refer to your future wife as a quote situation. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you want to get away from the situation, because she's

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Speaker 1: not gonna like that. If my husband referred to our

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Speaker 1: marriage as a situation, all h E double L would

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Speaker 1: break loose. Okay, just remember that. That's just a note

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Speaker 1: to self. Don't refer to your marriage or your relationship

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Speaker 1: as a quote, okay, situation. So Ellen, what do we

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Speaker 1: know about the marriage? Who's cheating and who wanted the money?

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Speaker 1: And where did the money come from? Was it her money?

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Speaker 1: I believe it was his money. Um. I'm not even

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Speaker 1: sure that she was working at the time of the murder,

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Speaker 1: but she she did work in the past. Well, we

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Speaker 1: know something pretty important. In two thousand and ten, she

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Speaker 1: reportedly posted a Facebook message saying that her husband had

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Speaker 1: had an affair, but that she was going to stay

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Speaker 1: with him. M Okay, there you go, Cheryl. I told

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Speaker 1: you it was either a boyfriend or money. It's a girlfriend.

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Speaker 1: He cheated. He cheated, But did he deserve the death penalty? Cheryl?

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Speaker 1: You know hell has no fury. And I tell you

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Speaker 1: when they when they do the autopsy, you're gonna see

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Speaker 1: just how long she's been poisoning. And I've been It's

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Speaker 1: much worse than three days you think. And what's the

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Speaker 1: significance of that at trials Cheryl, Again, it shows what

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Speaker 1: she's admitted to is not the whole story. I bet

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Speaker 1: she has been mistreating him and poisoning him and trying

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Speaker 1: to kill him for much longer than they believe. Now

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Speaker 1: you know what's interesting to you. Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist,

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Speaker 1: think about it. Nearly every poisoning case I have either

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Speaker 1: handled or covered, and this goes all the way back

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Speaker 1: to let's just say the Lynn Turner trial. Uh, that

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Speaker 1: took place in my backyard where Lynn Turner killed one

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Speaker 1: boyfriend and one husband by putting anti freeze in their

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Speaker 1: lime jello. Okay, because any freeze is sweet and they

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Speaker 1: never tasted it. Uh, it's seemingly, you know, stereo stereotypically

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Speaker 1: a woman's crime. Why is that, Well, women tend to

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Speaker 1: use poisoning more, whereas men tend to use firearms more. Um,

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Speaker 1: firearms are generally is generally seen as a more aggressive way,

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Speaker 1: if you will, a more violent, vicious way to kill someone.

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Speaker 1: Not that using anti freeze is not vicious, but it's

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Speaker 1: it's almost like suicides. Men tend to use firearms and

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Speaker 1: women tend to overdose. So it just seems to be

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Speaker 1: a gender difference in terms of the method used. Well,

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Speaker 1: this is a death penalty jurisdiction, and laying in wait,

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Speaker 1: which this would qualify for, is typically an aggravating circumstance.

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Speaker 1: We will wait as justice unfolds. From misthing Lanna Clayton.

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Speaker 1: We have been denied real access to the documents we

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Speaker 1: need to advise German regular orders, which turns this hearing

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Speaker 1: into a charade and the mockery of our norms. Well,

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Speaker 1: Mr Chairman, I therefore moved to a journey this hearing. Okay, yeah, yeah,

427
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: remember most of the dream. We're not any executive, Mr Chairman.

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00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: I asked for a roll call vote on my motion

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Speaker 1: to adjourney. It is happening right now. Protests, screaming, gnashing

430
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: of teeth, switching of tails, A major protest happening right

431
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: now over what one man, one judge who will sit

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00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: for a lifetime on the bench of the US Supreme Court.

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00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: You think it won't affect your life, Oh yes it will,

434
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace, this is crime stories. Thank you for

435
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 1: being with us. What you just heard were protesters interrupting

436
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: proceedings at the Capitol as confirmation hearings are underway for

437
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: the new U. S. Supreme Court judge position. Straight out

438
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: to Ellen Colorain Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, what's

439
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: the fuss um, As you said, it's been absolutely hear

440
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 1: you laughing, you think it's funny, little girl. It's been

441
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: absolute chaos on the on the Senate hearing or since yesterday.

442
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: It's started out with protesters screaming Democratic senators demanding that

443
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: the hearings be delayed. It's it's one of the most

444
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: kadok things that we've seen because it's so heated and

445
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: it's so contentious, and there's so much writing on this

446
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: this one judge appointment. Well, here's the thing. Here's the thing.

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00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 1: Joining me California prosecutor Wendy Patrick, Dr. Daniel Bober, m d.

448
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: And psychiatrist and boy do we need to shrink judge

449
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: and lawyer Ashley Willcott, and director of the Cold Case

450
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: Research Institute Cheryl McCullum. You know, Cheryl, I'm just gonna

451
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: come to you first. You're not a legal scholar, you're

452
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,479
Speaker 1: not a lawyer, but you know how as I do,

453
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: how Supreme Court rulings affect criminal law, affects, what evidence

454
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: gets into court, what evidence does not get into court.

455
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: Do I have to even say us the miranda? Do

456
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: I have to say Gideon versus is Wayne? Right? I

457
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: mean Roe v. Wade, which is a whole another can

458
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: of worms. It affects us in the courtroom every day.

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00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: Who sits in that seat, and it's for life, It's

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00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: for life. They get a d U Y, they get

461
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: a parking ticket, they sit on the bench, Cheryl, that's

462
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: not gonna change. Just like Jerry v. Ohio. It not

463
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: only affects us in the courtroom, it affects us at

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00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: the street level, the police officers. As soon as you

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00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: engage with someone, whether or not you can priss when

466
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: you need to read miranda and all the things going forward.

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00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: This is a massive appointment, Nancy, life changing. Well, the

468
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: other thing to Ashley Wilcott, Ashley, we all know their

469
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: nine Supreme Court justices. Somebody's got to break a tie.

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00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: Somebody has to break a tie on these cases. That

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00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: means so much to us. Absolutely so. He is super

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00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: conservative as we all know, um and he would be

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00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: the tie breaker. And think about some of the things

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00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: that he could be ruling on and being a time

475
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: breaker aren't Just for instance, Roe v. Wade women's rights.

476
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: It's really about the invasion of the government into personal rights,

477
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: which affects everybody. You know what, I'm very torn because

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00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: I'm hard on crime, but I'm not crazy about the

479
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: government getting all up in my personal business. You know,

480
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Let me go to you,

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00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor Way, and how important is what's

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00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: going on right now? It's gonna filter down to all

483
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: of us. It's absolutely right, Nancy, It's very important. You know.

484
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: We always say the Supreme Court justice that's a job

485
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: of a lifetime because he's going to be there for

486
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: the rest of his life, which is thirty plus years,

487
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: no doubt. So it is a very big hey, hey, hey, hey,

488
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: why is it almost always an old white guy. No

489
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: offense to all you old white guys and young white

490
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: guys listening right now. I love you guys. Without you,

491
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have a job because you're always killing people.

492
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: But why do they all have to sit on the U. S.

493
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: Supreme Court? Fifty three is young As I get older,

494
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: as younger and younger. But one of the important things,

495
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: I think what we're seeing in the hearing, we're really

496
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of them. I'm not saying him. I'm

497
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: not saying he's old. I had personal knowledge, up close

498
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: and personal knowledge of Supreme Court Justice Rnquist, who I

499
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 1: believe would qualify as an old white guy. No offense

500
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: to all you old white guys, because I was on

501
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: laur of You that year and we had him come

502
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: to Mercer as a speaker, and I being who otherwise

503
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,719
Speaker 1: got stuck because I'm missed a meeting with arranging all

504
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: the refreshments, and I ordered all the cookies in the

505
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: punch and the blah blah, and I got to meet

506
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: ran Quist. He came up to me and started talking

507
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: with his mouthful and spit cookies right on to my

508
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: only nice dress. It was a royal silk, royal blue

509
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: silk dress right there, right in the front ellen right there.

510
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: That's my memory of rink Wuist. So I'm okay with old.

511
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: I don't have a problem with that. But I just

512
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,719
Speaker 1: surprise me. We don't get that many minorities and that

513
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: many women on the Supreme Court. But that's a whole

514
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: another can of worms right now. What do you think, Wendy, Well,

515
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: it looks like it's a The hearing is contentious, it's unprofessional.

516
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: There's outbursts and and breaches of decorum all around. But

517
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, Nancy, I think it's

518
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: gonna come down not to momentum, but math, and Kavanaugh

519
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: appears to have the vote, so at the end of

520
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: this circus, he will be confirmed. That's my prediction. I'll

521
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: even predict what I did with Neil Gorsts that there's

522
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: going to be a few Democrats, primarily the ones from

523
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: red states, that are going to vote with the Republican majority.

524
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: It's going to get more votes than people think, well

525
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: as promised joining me Dr Daniel Bober, psychiatrist Dr Bober.

526
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: Some of those protesters are dressed like handmaid's tail Now,

527
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: I read the book when it I don't even know

528
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: when it came out, but I read it. I guess

529
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: in high school or college where women are subjugated in

530
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: a future world to childbearing and if you can't have children,

531
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: then you're not much use of anything. And all these

532
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: women were dressed in the red handmaids outfit with the

533
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: white looks like a nun hat and um. Now there

534
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: are accusations that some of them were paid off to protests.

535
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's true or not, but there

536
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: this is a very visceral thing. People are angry on

537
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: whichever side there on, and it's on a judge ship

538
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: because many people know, Dr Bober, how serious this one

539
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 1: position is. You know, Nancy, It's funny when people vote

540
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: for president, the general public never thinks about the effect

541
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: that their vote is going to have on the judiciary.

542
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: But you realize, uh, with the current administration, that the

543
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: judiciary is being reshaped in such a way that will continue,

544
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: It will continue to affect us for generations. So I

545
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: could see why passions are running high. I myself when

546
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: I worked on Capitol Hill, I remember a lot of

547
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: these protesters from from groups like Code Pink, you know,

548
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: showing up in senatorial offices to let their feelings be known.

549
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 1: So I can understand why passions run high, because the

550
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: implications are so tremendous that I don't even think we

551
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,959
Speaker 1: realized the full weight of this until something, a test

552
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,760
Speaker 1: case comes out, eruptions, ongoing, protests, ongoing, is this major

553
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: decision is being made right now, take a listen to this.

554
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,240
Speaker 1: A c Circuit is often referred to as the second

555
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: second highest court in the land because it hears many

556
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: critically important cases involving agency action and the separation of powers.

557
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 1: During his time on the bench, Judge Cavanaugh has heard

558
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: over a thousand cases. He's written more than three dred opinions.

559
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: His opinions spanned nearly five thousand pages in length. But

560
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: what what's remarkable about Judge Cavanaugh's judicial record is not

561
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: just its length, but its depth. At its quality, Judge

562
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 1: Kavanaugh has been a true fought leader. He's written powerful

563
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: opinions on the separation of powers and administrative law. He's

564
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 1: shown that he brings a fair minded approach to questions

565
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 1: of criminal law and employment law. We wait as justice

566
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: unfolds and the new U. S. Supreme Court justice is

567
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:28,399
Speaker 1: named Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off goodbye friend,