WEBVTT - Law Enforcement Probes Attempted Mail Bombs

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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<v Speaker 1>day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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<v Speaker 1>important legal news of the day. You can find more

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<v Speaker 1>episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud

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<v Speaker 1>and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Law enforcement agencies

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<v Speaker 1>are still on high alert after a series of suspicious

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<v Speaker 1>packages were mailed to high profile figures in the Democratic Party,

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<v Speaker 1>including former Presidents Barack Obama and Bill Clinton. In a

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<v Speaker 1>news conference yesterday, NYPD Deputy Commissioner of Intelligence and counter

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<v Speaker 1>Terrorism John Miller confirmed the explosive devices were connected. It

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<v Speaker 1>appears that an individual or individual sent out multiple similar packages.

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<v Speaker 1>Joining me is William Banks, professor at Syracuse Law School. Bill.

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<v Speaker 1>On the one hand, it looks like this was well coordinated.

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<v Speaker 1>They came at the same time. But on the other,

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<v Speaker 1>wrong addresses, misspellings, insufficient postage. What's your take on the

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<v Speaker 1>person or persons behind the bombs? It does look like

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<v Speaker 1>it was not a terribly sophisticated uh campaign or attack

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<v Speaker 1>with the misspellings, use of you know, the post the

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<v Speaker 1>postal service and stamps, wrong addresses and the like. On

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<v Speaker 1>the other hand, you know there there were you know,

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<v Speaker 1>or about ten of these I guess that have been

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<v Speaker 1>detected so far, and they didn't manage to get at

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<v Speaker 1>least through the postal system without being detected. So it's

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<v Speaker 1>certainly a worrisome case. The Secret Service. Secret Service, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>takes special measures to screen the mail of the public

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<v Speaker 1>figures it protects, but some of the people here are

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<v Speaker 1>obviously not under Secret Service protection. Reportedly, the one center

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<v Speaker 1>Robert de Niro, the actor, was discovered at an office

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<v Speaker 1>in New York. Are we coming to a time when

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<v Speaker 1>packages will have to be picked up that a post

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<v Speaker 1>office or screened before they're delivered? Uh? That would not

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<v Speaker 1>be a crazy uh thought. I think that's possible in

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<v Speaker 1>the future. You know, we have postal inspectors now, and

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<v Speaker 1>they've been doing much more, particularly since the the Antrax

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<v Speaker 1>letters soon after nine eleven, the type and rate of

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<v Speaker 1>postal inspection of packages increased greatly, not just the public

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<v Speaker 1>officials but to all of us. But it's impossible to

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<v Speaker 1>routinely screen every piece of mail that is of a

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<v Speaker 1>package size to determine what's in it. So it could

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<v Speaker 1>be that will have remote collection. Uh. It could be

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<v Speaker 1>also that that will learn something will will identify who

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<v Speaker 1>these perpetrators or a single perpetrator, Uh is it was

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<v Speaker 1>and uh and the threat will be diagnosed and perhaps

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<v Speaker 1>it will go away. You know. We we've had a

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<v Speaker 1>number of instances like this. UM we go back to

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<v Speaker 1>the Antax letters is probably the most prominent example since

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<v Speaker 1>nine eleven, but back before that, the Unit bomber. It

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<v Speaker 1>took an awfully long time to find Ted Kasinski, I

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<v Speaker 1>think sixteen years or something like that. Yeah, they never

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<v Speaker 1>did actually apprehend the antifacts mailer, although they likely identified him,

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<v Speaker 1>and he committed suicide before he was apprehended. These can

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<v Speaker 1>be very easy cases to solve the very hard cases,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think it's fair to say that our investigative techniques,

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<v Speaker 1>the science of it all, forensics as well as surveillance

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<v Speaker 1>capabilities in d N a far advanced compared to what

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<v Speaker 1>they were even after the Antrax letters. Is it incredibly

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<v Speaker 1>lucky that none of the bombs exploded? Or were they

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<v Speaker 1>meant to cause fear rather than injury? Yeah, we're not

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<v Speaker 1>sure yet, but it could well be the latter because

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<v Speaker 1>some of these, at least from the reporting I saw,

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<v Speaker 1>had timers. You don't use timers on devices that are

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<v Speaker 1>sensored the mail obviously, because you know the mail is

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<v Speaker 1>of indeterminate length. Uh So they could have been fake

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<v Speaker 1>or without any kind of way to to explode. But

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<v Speaker 1>those that were capable of exploding, certainly some of them were.

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<v Speaker 1>They were certainly powerful enough to have injured or killed

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<v Speaker 1>a person. What's your reaction to President Trump's response. He

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<v Speaker 1>did make a call for unity yesterday morning, but last

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<v Speaker 1>night a rally, and in tweets today he blamed the

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<v Speaker 1>media and his opponents for anger in our society. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>his his first public statement was a very good statement.

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<v Speaker 1>I wish you would stick to those those are appropriate.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what the President United States should be saying, not

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<v Speaker 1>just larn split routinely. And I'm afraid that his rhetoric

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<v Speaker 1>has certainly contributed to the atmosphere that makes the fear

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<v Speaker 1>all the more palpable. It's a really sad a moment

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<v Speaker 1>I think in our society. I want to turn to

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<v Speaker 1>another topic for a moment, which is The New York

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<v Speaker 1>Times is reporting that President Trump continues to use an

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<v Speaker 1>unsecured iPhone and that American intelligence reports indicate that Chinese

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<v Speaker 1>spies are often listening. Trump tweeted about the story and

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<v Speaker 1>says that he rarely uses a cell phone and when

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<v Speaker 1>he does, it's government authorized, and he said it was

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<v Speaker 1>a fake story. What is the danger with the president

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<v Speaker 1>using an unsecured iPhone. It's a great danger. And it's

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<v Speaker 1>not only the Chinese you're listening to. Anyone with a

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<v Speaker 1>sort of a modulate degree of hacking capability can listen

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<v Speaker 1>in on an iPhone. So the Russians are listening, the

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<v Speaker 1>Iranians are listening, who knows who else. And he's talking

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<v Speaker 1>to his friends. I'm not sure he's conducting business on

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<v Speaker 1>his personal iPhones. I hope not. But but they're learning

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<v Speaker 1>things about his style or what he likes to talk about,

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<v Speaker 1>what his interests are, what's on his mind. That's a

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<v Speaker 1>very dangerous thing to do, and his staff should try

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<v Speaker 1>to put a kabash on it as quickly as possible.

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<v Speaker 1>So even if he's not talking about classified information, if

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<v Speaker 1>he's just talking to its friends, it's still dangerous. Of

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<v Speaker 1>course it is, because again you're learning about the man,

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<v Speaker 1>and what you can gain by learning about the man

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<v Speaker 1>in terms of the of the negotiations or diplomacy or

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<v Speaker 1>communications that another state needs to have with him. It's

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<v Speaker 1>a real advantage for them. I don't think we're capable

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<v Speaker 1>of doing the same thing with foreign leaders that they're

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<v Speaker 1>capable of doing with him because of the security of

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<v Speaker 1>their devices. Is this a similar concern that the continuing

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<v Speaker 1>debate over Hillary Clinton's emails raised? Well? Yeah, I think

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<v Speaker 1>her the shortcomings and her security to the extent that

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<v Speaker 1>I recall the details, were not nearly as grave as this.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh it was an email server that might have allowed

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<v Speaker 1>some things to slip through that should not have been

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<v Speaker 1>uh insecure. If he's doing this on a regular basis

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<v Speaker 1>using his own phone that's not been secured, just that

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<v Speaker 1>for everyday communications, it's so much more serious. Claw Do

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<v Speaker 1>you remember, I'm just trying to remember. Did President Obama?

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<v Speaker 1>Was he forced to use a BlackBerry or something for

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<v Speaker 1>security reasons? Yeah? Either whatever he was, he either went

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<v Speaker 1>from BlackBerry to iPhone or vice reversa on account of

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<v Speaker 1>the security I think he was there was. I remember

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<v Speaker 1>a report that he was unhappy but resigned to the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that he had to give up on his favorite device.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I remember. All right, Thanks so much, Bill.

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<v Speaker 1>As always, that's William Banks. He's a professor at Syracuse

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<v Speaker 1>Law School. In August, lawyers for ex On Mobile stood

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<v Speaker 1>before a New York judge and told the state's attorney

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<v Speaker 1>general to put were shut up in its three year

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<v Speaker 1>investigation into the oil giants public disclosures about climate change. Well, yesterday,

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<v Speaker 1>Attorney General Barbara Underwood did just that. She filed a

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<v Speaker 1>fraud lawsuit against Exxon in state court in Manhattan. Joining

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<v Speaker 1>me is Charles Warrant, chair of the environmental law practice

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<v Speaker 1>at Cramer eleven Chuck. The lawsuit alleges that Exson misled

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<v Speaker 1>investors regarding climate change, basically setting up two sets of

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<v Speaker 1>books for proxy costs. Tell us more about the allegations, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>what and what they're really saying is that in their

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<v Speaker 1>proxy statements that they issued to the public, they listed

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<v Speaker 1>their costs related to climate change, and they listed them

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<v Speaker 1>really at higher levels than they actually applied them internally.

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<v Speaker 1>And so if they had used those public cause what

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<v Speaker 1>the suit is saying, if they had actually taken their

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<v Speaker 1>costs as they were um represent to the public, they

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<v Speaker 1>would have caused they have had to write, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of write downs and and shorter asset lives

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<v Speaker 1>and things like that that would have cost them money

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<v Speaker 1>and so they're saying that they didn't apply it to

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<v Speaker 1>their oil sands projects in Canada, and and they had

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<v Speaker 1>sort of an undercounting of greenhouse gas related expenses by

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<v Speaker 1>more than twenty five billion dollars over the lifetime. Those

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<v Speaker 1>are some of the you know, those are some of

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<v Speaker 1>the things that they're saying. And so they're saying this

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<v Speaker 1>was really a fraud perpetrated on the public because they

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<v Speaker 1>were giving the public one set of costs that they

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<v Speaker 1>said were related to the climate change, but they were

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<v Speaker 1>using another set lower when they were actually doing things

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<v Speaker 1>on the ground, and so they weren't writing off things

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<v Speaker 1>that they might have writed written off, they weren't attributing

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<v Speaker 1>more costs when they should have attributed more costs, and

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<v Speaker 1>so that's what they're saying. They're saying it's a fraud

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<v Speaker 1>under the State Martin Act, which is there New York

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<v Speaker 1>securities law, which is a fairly broad statute and has

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<v Speaker 1>been used by Attorney General of the State of New

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<v Speaker 1>York to bring all kinds of suits related to stock issues,

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<v Speaker 1>stock market manipulation, and things like that. So, Chuck, this

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<v Speaker 1>is a change from the kind of climate change lawsuits

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<v Speaker 1>we've been seeing and which have been getting dismissed, which

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<v Speaker 1>blamed the fossil fuel industry for creating climate change. This

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<v Speaker 1>is really going back to the basics of a shareholder

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<v Speaker 1>fraud lawsuit that the a G. S Office has used

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<v Speaker 1>so many times before. That that's correct, tune, that's exactly

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<v Speaker 1>what they're doing. They're saying that Excellent has committed a

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<v Speaker 1>fraud on the public and and people who bought their

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<v Speaker 1>securities based on these statements proxy statements, public statements have

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<v Speaker 1>been defrauded. The state has been defrauded, and they want

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<v Speaker 1>them to pay, you know, stop doing it and pay

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<v Speaker 1>penalties and to the extent there are any profits that

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<v Speaker 1>are related to it, to give up those profits. And

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<v Speaker 1>then this is more in the it's it's obviously they

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<v Speaker 1>had the climate change, but it's more in the context

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<v Speaker 1>of your normal securities type lawsuit that the government would

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<v Speaker 1>bring against a company. X On, as we've discussed before,

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<v Speaker 1>has been waging a no holes barred counterattack against investigations

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<v Speaker 1>by the New York AG as well as the Massachusetts

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<v Speaker 1>a G. Saying the investigations have politically motivated, violent at

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<v Speaker 1>the First Amendment and so on. Who seems to be

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<v Speaker 1>winning that battle at this point. No, well, at this point,

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<v Speaker 1>really the governments have won both New York and Massachusetts,

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<v Speaker 1>have you know, beaten back the efforts by x and

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<v Speaker 1>to get the lawsuit dismissed or quash too because of

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<v Speaker 1>political considerations, First Amendment, considering all kinds of those things,

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<v Speaker 1>and they really have been unsuccessful at this point, and

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<v Speaker 1>it doesn't look like they are going to succeed. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>so it looks like this is some this is a

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<v Speaker 1>suit that will end up unless there's some kind of

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<v Speaker 1>a settlement, uh, you know, going to trial at some point, Chuck.

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<v Speaker 1>During the hearing before the New York judge in August,

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<v Speaker 1>the New York a G the deputy New York ag

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<v Speaker 1>said that there was some smoking gun evidence that they had.

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<v Speaker 1>Do they disclose that in the lawsuit? In the allegations, Um,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I haven't seen that, but they probably could

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<v Speaker 1>mean some of the things that they talked about related

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<v Speaker 1>to the oil sands stuff in Canada and things like that,

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<v Speaker 1>and maybe that's what they're talking about. I'm not I'm not,

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<v Speaker 1>but I haven't seen that, Jim. So they're they're also

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<v Speaker 1>alleging that this went to the top and that former

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<v Speaker 1>CEO Rex Tillerson knew about these Yes, absolutely, they said

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<v Speaker 1>they have alleged that direx Tillerson was intimately involved in

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<v Speaker 1>doing this and played a key role in this whole effort. Chuck.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, Exon has been tru ing in different ways

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<v Speaker 1>to you know, revive or brush up it's it's reputation

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<v Speaker 1>in this area. How much damage will this lawsuit due

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<v Speaker 1>to that? Well, I think it will do some damage, June,

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<v Speaker 1>There's no doubt about it. I think a lot will

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<v Speaker 1>depend obviously on how it plays out the lawsuits. But

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<v Speaker 1>as you indicated, Exxon has done a lot of work.

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<v Speaker 1>They funded a lot of climate change reports. Uh, they're

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<v Speaker 1>not denying that climate change is, you know, as man made.

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<v Speaker 1>They're investing in a lot of renewable energy sources. I

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<v Speaker 1>think they're doing that, you know, because it makes sense

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<v Speaker 1>from a number of perspectives, and so they're trying actually

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<v Speaker 1>quite hard, I think too, you indicated to burnish their

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<v Speaker 1>reputation in this area. And it's obviously a suit like

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<v Speaker 1>this doesn't help. And I think a lot will depend

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<v Speaker 1>on how it plays out. And you know, whether whether

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<v Speaker 1>you get a lot of uh, things that are shown

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<v Speaker 1>to have occurred, you know, and things that they suppressed.

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<v Speaker 1>It's almost like the tobacco lawsuits. Where as those lawsuits unfolded,

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<v Speaker 1>information came out that the company's new way beforehand about this,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's the kind of I think those are the

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<v Speaker 1>kinds of things that they run the risk of having

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<v Speaker 1>happened to them. All right, Thanks so much, Chuck. That's

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<v Speaker 1>Charles Warren of Kramer Levin, Exxon spokesperson has said these

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<v Speaker 1>baseless allegations are a product of closed door lobbying by

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<v Speaker 1>special interests, political opportunism, and the Attorney General's inability to

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<v Speaker 1>admit that a three year investigation has uncovered no wrongdoing.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can

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<v Speaker 1>subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:49.200
<v Speaker 1>and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso.

0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:50.920
<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg