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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. Wilson

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Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Frye. I have made an accidental new

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Speaker 1: theme in a lot of research the episodes that I've

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Speaker 1: researched recently, and that theme is seventeenth century historical figures

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Speaker 1: with just big, big gaps in the record. So that

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Speaker 1: there was Mary Dyer and all the question marks about

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Speaker 1: her life before she got to Boston and where exactly

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Speaker 1: she was executed. And then Michelina Wattier, who I decided

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Speaker 1: to do a podcast on even though we have almost

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Speaker 1: no biographical detail about her now today it is hasekur

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Speaker 1: Rokuwae Monsunanaga, who was a samurai who led a diplomatic

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Speaker 1: delegation to New Spain, Spain, and Rome in the sixteen

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Speaker 1: teens and twenties. These delegates, who were with Hasikura Sudanaga,

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Speaker 1: were probably the first Japanese people to visit Cuba and

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Speaker 1: to cross the Atlantic Ocean, but a lot of the

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Speaker 1: Japanese records about their mission were lost or destroyed after

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Speaker 1: they got back. At the same time, though, this is

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Speaker 1: a situation where if we were Japanese or living in Japan,

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Speaker 1: we might have access to some more information. There are

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Speaker 1: a number of Japanese scholars who have written about this

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Speaker 1: over the last four or five decades, but that's research

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Speaker 1: that was printed in Japanese in Japan, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of it just isn't available in any language in libraries

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Speaker 1: in the United States. This delegation took place just before

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Speaker 1: Japan started closing its borders in the seventeenth century, and

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Speaker 1: it was between waves of violent and sometimes truly horrifying

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Speaker 1: persecution of Christians in Japan. And all of that connects

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Speaker 1: to why those records were destroyed, which of course we

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Speaker 1: will be getting to so to.

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Speaker 2: Set the stage for what was happening in seventeenth century Japan.

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Speaker 2: Portugal had started trading with Japan in the fifteen forties

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Speaker 2: after Portuguese merchants were blown off course and landed in

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Speaker 2: Japan by accident. Spain established a trading relationship with Japan

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Speaker 2: not long after, with much of that trade taking place

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Speaker 2: via the Philippines. Ferdinand Magellan had claimed the Philippines for

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Speaker 2: Spain in fifteen twenty one, and trade between Manila and Acapulco, Mexico,

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Speaker 2: known as the Manila Gallean trade, was established in fifteen

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Speaker 2: sixty five. Spanish trading ships carried silver, gold, and other

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Speaker 2: precious metals from the Americas to Asia, and porcelain, silk, ivory,

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Speaker 2: and other goods from Asia back to the Americas, and

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Speaker 2: then from the Americas onto Europe. We talked about this

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Speaker 2: trade and its influence in our twenty fifteen interview with

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Speaker 2: Dennis Carr, who at the time was a curator at

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Speaker 2: the Museum of Fine Arts Boston. As Portugal and Spain

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Speaker 2: established trading relationships with Japan, missionaries started arriving there as well.

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Speaker 2: The first Catholic missionary in Japan is recognized as Francis Xavier,

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Speaker 2: who was one of the founders of the Society of

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Speaker 2: Jesus or the Jesuits. He arrived in Japan in fifteen

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Speaker 2: forty nine. More Jesuit missionaries followed, as well as Franciscans

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Speaker 2: and Dominicans, and by the end of the sixteenth century

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Speaker 2: there were about two hundred thousand Catholics living in Japan.

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Speaker 2: That included missionaries from outside of Japan as well as

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Speaker 2: local people who had converted. But the relationships among these

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Speaker 2: three religious orders were not always harmonious. As a general trend,

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Speaker 2: most of the Jesuit missionaries were Portuguese, while most of

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Speaker 2: the Franciscan and Dominican missionaries were Spanish, and there were

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Speaker 2: a lot of disagreements among the three of them as

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Speaker 2: they each essentially competed with one another. There were also

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Speaker 2: disagreements between Spanish and Portuguese clergy, and between Spanish and

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Speaker 2: Portuguese people in Japan. More generally, Spain and Portugal were

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Speaker 2: united under Habsburg monarch Philip the Second in fifteen eighty,

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Speaker 2: but that didn't stop the Spanish in Portuguese in Japan

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Speaker 2: and elsewhere from seeing one another as rivals. There were

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Speaker 2: also missionaries from other countries. One was Italian Jesuit visitor

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Speaker 2: Alessandro Vallignano. A visitor was essentially someone who visited and

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Speaker 2: inspected Jesuit missions, and Ballagnano was responsible for the Jesuit

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Speaker 2: missions and most of Southeast and East Asia except for

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Speaker 2: the Philippines. During the ten Show era of Japanese history,

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Speaker 2: which spanned from fifteen seventy three to fifteen ninety two,

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Speaker 2: Ballianiano arranged for four Japanese seminary students to visit Europe.

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Speaker 2: He wanted to impress Jesuit leadership with what the order

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Speaker 2: was doing in Japan, and also impressed the four Japanese

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Speaker 2: delegates by touring them through some of Europe's major Catholic cities.

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Speaker 2: The four boys, all age fourteen or fifteen, were carefully selected.

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Speaker 2: At this point, the Japanese ruling class was the daimyo,

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Speaker 2: who were essentially powerful feudal lords. Some of the daimyo

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Speaker 2: had converted to Catholicism, and the delegates had connections to

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Speaker 2: the most powerful of those. These four young men all

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Speaker 2: had both a Japanese and a Spanish Catholic education, including

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Speaker 2: Japanese language and literature, Spanish Latin, music and art.

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Speaker 1: The senior delegate was Mancillo Ito Sukamatsu, and the junior

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Speaker 1: delegate was Michael Tgus Suzieimon. The other two boys, Julian

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Speaker 1: Nakura and Martin Haro, were selected as their companions, but

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Speaker 1: in practice all four of the boys were basically treated

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Speaker 1: as though they were part of the same delegation. This

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Speaker 1: became known as the Ten Show Embassy of fifteen eighty

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Speaker 1: two or the Ten Show era Boys Embassy. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: really an embassy though, there wasn't a diplomatic goal beyond

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Speaker 1: just introducing these boys to Catholic Europe and vice versa.

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Speaker 1: The embassy left from Nagasaki in February of fifteen eighty two.

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Speaker 1: Tracy wasn't able to piece together the entire route that

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Speaker 1: they took to Europe, but they traveled south and west

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Speaker 1: from Japan, making stops in Macau and Malacca before arriving

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Speaker 1: in Goa on the western coast of India. Veliinyano left

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Speaker 1: the delegation there after, receiving orders to transfer to a

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Speaker 1: new assignment, and the rest of the embassy continued on,

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Speaker 1: finally arriving in Lisbon on August eleventh, fifteen eighty four.

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Speaker 1: So it took them about two and a half years

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Speaker 1: to travel from Japan to Portugal, with some relatively lengthy

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Speaker 1: stops along the way. After arriving in Europe, this delegation

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Speaker 1: met with King Philip Icond of Spain, Pope Gregory the

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Speaker 1: thirteenth and Gregory's successor sixth is the Fifth. The gifts

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Speaker 1: that they brought for these and other people included painted

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Speaker 1: folding screens or byobu for each of them, and this

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Speaker 1: might have been the first introduction of these painted screens

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Speaker 1: into Europe. This delegation wasn't an official effort on Japan's part,

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Speaker 1: although later on Valinnano wrote about it as though it

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Speaker 1: had been and officials in Europe seemed to have seen

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Speaker 1: it that way. A lot of European accounts described the

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Speaker 1: boys as kings or princes, which they definitely were not.

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Speaker 1: There were also people who compared them to the biblical Magi,

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Speaker 1: the wise men from the East who followed a star

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Speaker 1: to Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus Christ. This delegation

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Speaker 1: traveled in Europe before returning home, including to Lisbon, Madrid, Pisa, Florence, Rome, Genoa,

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Speaker 1: and Venice. They arrived back in Japan on July twenty first,

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Speaker 1: fifteen ninety but anti Catholic and anti Western attitudes had

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Speaker 1: really started increasing in Japan while they were away. For example,

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Speaker 1: Daimyo Toyotomi Hideyoshi, who is known as one of the

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Speaker 1: three Unifiers of Japan, issued an edict expelling missionaries from

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Speaker 1: Japan three years before the delegation's return. Toyotomi was apparently

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Speaker 1: motivated by concerns about the number of daimyo who were

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Speaker 1: converting to Christianity and about reports that some of the

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Speaker 1: daimyo were forcing their subjects to convert as well. This

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Speaker 1: initial edict wasn't strictly enforced, though, and all four of

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Speaker 1: the boys from the ten Show Embassy ultimately joined the

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Speaker 1: Jesuit Order as they had planned to.

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Speaker 2: Circle back to Toyotomi Hideyoshi Hideyoshi and the unification of

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Speaker 2: Japan that was happening right around the same time as well.

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Speaker 2: From fourteen sixty seven to fifteen sixty eight, there had

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Speaker 2: been so much conflict and warfare among all of Japan's

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Speaker 2: domains and their ruling daimyo that it came to be

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Speaker 2: known as the Sengoku period or the Warring States period.

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Speaker 2: This period came to a close as three daimyo conquered

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Speaker 2: and otherwise unified the days. Toyotomi Hideoshi was one and

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Speaker 2: the other two were Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Iyeyasu.

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Speaker 1: As Japan was becoming more unified, some of its leaders

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Speaker 1: started working to increase trade with other nations to send

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Speaker 1: more Japanese ships rather than relying largely on merchants from

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Speaker 1: countries like Spain and Portugal. But Spanish officials were concerned

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Speaker 1: about whether an increase in the number of Japanese ships

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Speaker 1: would threaten the ports of Manila and Akapolco. Both of

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Speaker 1: these ports were already considered to be vulnerable to attacks

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Speaker 1: by the English or the Dutch. The loss of either

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Speaker 1: of the ports would completely disrupt the Manila galleon trade.

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Speaker 2: Spanish authorities were also wary of entering into a deeper

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Speaker 2: relationship with Japan because the status of Catholics in Japan

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Speaker 2: was already precarious. Although there were some daimyo who had

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Speaker 2: converted to Christianity and some who protected Christians within their

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Speaker 2: domains while not themselves being Christians, in some places Christians

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Speaker 2: faced deep hostility and even violence, beyond the edict expelling

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Speaker 2: missionaries that wasn't really being enforced. As one of the

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Speaker 2: most horrifying examples, in fifteen ninety seven, twenty six Catholics,

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Speaker 2: including clergy and lay people, were rounded up in Nagasaki,

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Speaker 2: publicly mutilated and then crucified. Six of them were from Spain, Mexico,

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Speaker 2: or Portugal, and the rest were Japanese or Korean. This

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Speaker 2: is usually interpreted as a response to what's known as

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Speaker 2: the San Felipe incident. The San Felipe was a Spanish

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Speaker 2: galleon that had wrecked in Japanese territory the previous year.

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Speaker 2: The ship's captain was reportedly outraged after his cargo was confiscated.

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Speaker 2: He either threatened local authorities with Spain's military might or

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Speaker 2: sort of implied that Spain was using merchants and missionaries

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Speaker 2: to pave the way for an invasion. So this Tree

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Speaker 2: of Christians was kind of a response to what was

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Speaker 2: perceived as as a genuine threat. More violence followed these crucifixions,

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Speaker 2: including the burning of churches. Oda Nabunaga and Toyotomi Hideyoshi

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Speaker 2: had both died by fifteen ninety eight, living Tokugawa Ayasu,

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Speaker 2: the last of the three unifiers in the first shogun

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Speaker 2: of the Tokugawa Shogunate also called the Edo Shogunate because

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Speaker 2: its capital was in the city of Edo. Japan still

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Speaker 2: had an emperor, but under the Tokugawa Shogunate, the shoguns

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Speaker 2: and the Tokugawa family were really in control.

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Speaker 1: Tokugawa Yeyasu was somewhat more tolerant of Catholicism, although he

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Speaker 1: did prohibit Daimyo from converting. This tolerance was largely because

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Speaker 1: he wanted to encourage more trade between Japan and Europe,

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Speaker 1: and that was in part because Japan had lost China

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Speaker 1: as one of its major trading partners. Japan had invaded

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Speaker 1: Korea in fifteen ninety two and China had sided with Korea,

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Speaker 1: so that trading relationship was at least for the time over.

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Speaker 2: And it was in the wake of all of this

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Speaker 2: that Hasakura Tunanaga undertook his mission. We'll talk more about

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Speaker 2: that after a sponsor break.

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Speaker 1: Hasakura Sunnaga was born in fifteen seventy one. He's described

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Speaker 1: as being descended from Emperor Kamu. Kamu was Japan's fiftieth

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Speaker 1: emperor and reigned from seven thirty five to eight oh six.

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Speaker 1: Beyond that, we really don't have much biographical information about

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Speaker 1: him at all. As a samurai, he would have had

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Speaker 1: lots of combat training, and in this case this also

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Speaker 1: involved firearms training. He was in the gun core of

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Speaker 1: the daimyo he served dat Masamune. Dat Masamune had lost

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Speaker 1: an eye as a child due to an illness. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: this illness has specified as smallpox. For that reason. As

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Speaker 1: an adult he was nicknamed the one eyed Dragon. He

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Speaker 1: had military experience and became Daimyo of Sendai on the

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Speaker 1: northern part of Hanshu Island, which is the largest of

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Speaker 1: the four main islands of Japan. Although he was not

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Speaker 1: Christian himself, he did allow Christians in his territory, including

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Speaker 1: allowing a church to be built there in sixteen eleven.

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Speaker 1: As was the case with Tokugawa Ayasu, this was probably

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Speaker 1: more about wanting to increase trade to his region than

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Speaker 1: about any kind of religious conviction. Daatem Masamune was also

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Speaker 1: a patron of the arts and letters, and was himself

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Speaker 1: a poet. In sixteen twelve, Hasakura Stunanaga's father, Hasakurra Sunanari,

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Speaker 1: was accused of corruption, stripped of his land in title,

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Speaker 1: and ordered to take his own life, and this is

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Speaker 1: reportedly what led to hasakurras Stunanaga going on this mission

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Speaker 1: to Spain and its colonies. Date Masamune ordered him to

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Speaker 1: do it as a way to redeem his family, and

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Speaker 1: if he refused, he would be punished for his father's

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Speaker 1: disgrace as well. Spanish Franciscan Friar Lewis Soleto acted as

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Speaker 1: an interpreter for this delegation. He had arrived in Japan

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Speaker 1: in sixteen oh six after spending three years in the Philippines.

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Speaker 1: It's possible that like Hasakura Tsunanaga. His participation in this

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Speaker 1: mission was not entirely voluntary. Soleto had agreed to go

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Speaker 1: on an earlier voyage to New Spain that Tokugawa Ayasu

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Speaker 1: authorized in sixteen ten, but then he pulled out due

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Speaker 1: to an illness. That voyage went on as planned, but

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Speaker 1: without Luis Soleto, and in some accounts he was essentially

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Speaker 1: forced to go on this mission as punishment for failing

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Speaker 1: to go on the previous one. In other accounts, it

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Speaker 1: was punishment for something else, proselytizing at a colony for

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Speaker 1: people with leprosy after being ordered not to, and he

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Speaker 1: was given the choice of either going on this mission

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Speaker 1: or being executed. There are also some accounts that put

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Speaker 1: a somewhat more positive spin on this, though Soleto seems

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Speaker 1: to have been ambitious. He was hoping to be named

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Speaker 1: bishop of Japan once that bishopric was established. In some

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Speaker 1: versions of all this, one of Dati Masumune's concubines had

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Speaker 1: been ill and Soleto had healed her, and then Date

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Speaker 1: had thanked him by advocating for him to be part

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Speaker 1: of this delegation, so in this version it wasn't really

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Speaker 1: a punishment. Soleto was hoping to use the delegation as

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Speaker 1: a stepping stone to becoming Bishop of Japan.

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Speaker 2: The galleon built for this voyage was initially called the

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Speaker 2: Date Maru, and it may have started by rebuilding the

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Speaker 2: hull of an earlier shipwreck. Construction took forty five days,

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Speaker 2: supervised by shogun Admiral Mukai Shogen. Later the ship was

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Speaker 2: renamed the San Juan Baptista, and it sailed with about

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Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty total people on board, including about

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Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty Japanese merchants, servants, and the likes

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Speaker 2: in about twenty samurai. One of the merchants was Tanaka Shosuke,

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Speaker 2: who had been on that earlier mission in sixteen ten.

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Speaker 1: The ship also had a crew of about forty Spanish

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Speaker 1: sailors under the command of Sebastian Vizcaino, and there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of strife between Viskayino and the Japanese delegation.

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Speaker 1: Some of this seems to have been just prejudice on

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Speaker 1: his part, but he had also tried to get permission

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Speaker 1: to search for gold and silver along the Japanese coastline,

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Speaker 1: or maybe to search for islands of gold and silver

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Speaker 1: that were believed to be in the waters off of Japan.

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Speaker 1: That request had been denied, and Viskayno was bitter about it,

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Speaker 1: And then, to make things worse, he wound up stuck

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Speaker 1: in Japan after his ship was damaged and he couldn't

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Speaker 1: get funding to make it seaworthy again. So Sebastian Viscayino

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Speaker 1: is yet another person who was just under a lot

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Speaker 1: of external pressure to embark on this voyage. For his part,

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Speaker 1: this was basically his ride back to the Americas so

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Speaker 1: he could make his way from there back to Europe.

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Speaker 2: The San Juan Baptiste to set sail from the port

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Speaker 2: of Tsuki, Noura in the fall of sixteen thirteen. It

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Speaker 2: crossed the Pacific Ocean to what's now California and then

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Speaker 2: sailed to Acapulco, arriving there on January twenty eighth, sixteen fourteen.

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Speaker 2: The delegation had brought gifts for authorities in Acapulco, as

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Speaker 2: well as the royals, religious leaders, and others they would

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Speaker 2: encounter later on in their expedition. They included painted biobu screens, weapons, armor,

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Speaker 2: and furniture. After arriving in Acapulco, they traveled across Mexico

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Speaker 2: to Vera Cruz via Mexico City.

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Speaker 1: One of the people who chronicled their time in New

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Speaker 1: Spain was the prolific Nahua historian and chronicler known as

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Speaker 1: Chamalpine Quadlajuan Eitzen, who lived in Mexico City. Chamalpine wrote

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Speaker 1: about day to day life among Nahua communities, as well

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Speaker 1: as Spanish colonial efforts in Mexico. He wrote in both

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Speaker 1: Nawatl and in Spanish. Chamalpine created some of the most

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Speaker 1: comprehensive chronicles of New Spain written by an indigenous person

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Speaker 1: in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, and much of what

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Speaker 1: he wrote and incorporated in his annals included eyewitness accounts

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Speaker 1: from other indigenous people. His work is also noteworthy because

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Speaker 1: he wasn't a member of the nobility, so his point

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Speaker 1: of view represented everyday people rather than the elite. He

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Speaker 1: had also documented that earlier sixteen ten delegation that had

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Speaker 1: included to Nakashosuke. Chamalpine's account of the delegation includes a

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Speaker 1: description of a violent incident between viz Kayano and some

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Speaker 1: of its Japanese members not long after their arrival. Apparently

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Speaker 1: this had something to do with who was going to

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Speaker 1: take control of the gifts that the delegation had brought

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Speaker 1: with them. Someone stabbed viz Kayino with a sword, and

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Speaker 1: a Spanish official who tried to intervene was killed. This

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00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,000
Speaker 1: Kayino and the rest of the delegation quickly parted ways,

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Speaker 1: with viz Kayino traveling across Mexico separately from them to

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00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:03,080
Speaker 1: return to Europe. Jamalpine was also one of the people

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Speaker 1: who wrote about members of the delegation being baptized while

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Speaker 1: in Mexico. According to Chamalpine, forty four of them were

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Speaker 1: baptized in Mexico City in the spring of sixteen fourteen,

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Speaker 1: more than half of them baptized by Archbishop Juan Perez

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Speaker 1: de la Cerna. Most accounts suggest that, with the exception

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Speaker 1: of the most high ranking samurai in this group, which

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Speaker 1: included Hasakura, all the Japanese entourage were baptized while in Mexico, apparently,

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Speaker 1: though there aren't official church records to back that up.

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Speaker 1: It's like there are a lot of accounts that describe it,

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Speaker 1: but according to the sources that I read, not church

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Speaker 1: records to confirm it.

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Speaker 2: There are some things that are not fully clear about

302
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,760
Speaker 2: these baptisms. Some of the delegation's members may have already converted,

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Speaker 2: or at least been interested in doing so before leaving Japan,

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Speaker 2: But we don't really know everyone's reasons for going on

305
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,679
Speaker 2: the voyage or what everyone's thoughts and feelings were in

306
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,800
Speaker 2: terms of religion, So we don't really know whether all

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00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 2: these baptisms came about because of a sincere religious conviction

308
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,640
Speaker 2: or more as an attempt to encourage the trade agreement

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Speaker 2: that they were there to.

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Speaker 1: Secure authorization of That kind of a trade agreement needed

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Speaker 1: to come from Spain itself, not from colonial authorities in

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Speaker 1: the Americas. So a group of samurai plus about twenty

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Speaker 1: other Japanese delegates departed from Vera Cruz in the late

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Speaker 1: spring of sixteen fourteen. That July, they became the first

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Speaker 1: Japanese people known to visit Cuba, and then the first

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Speaker 1: Japanese people known to have crossed the Atlantic Ocean.

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Speaker 2: We will talk about their time in Europe after a

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Speaker 2: sponsor break.

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Speaker 1: When Hussaker Asunanaga's delegation had been in Mexico, they had

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Speaker 1: been welcomed and treated as honored guests, and that really

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Speaker 1: continued in the first place they visited in Europe, which

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Speaker 1: was Luis Sileto's hometown of Seville, where they presented letters

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Speaker 1: of introduction to the Council on September thirtieth, sixteen fourteen.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of hype in Seville around their visit,

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00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,720
Speaker 1: including formal receptions and a pamphlet written about them that

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00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,640
Speaker 1: was basically propaganda. This pamphlet made it sound like they

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Speaker 1: were official emissaries sent by the Emperor of Japan and

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Speaker 1: that Datte Masimune was next in line to be Emperor

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Speaker 1: of Japan. It is not entirely clear whether Europeans understood

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Speaker 1: the distinction between the emperor and the shogun, or whether

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00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 1: they were using emperor to mean shogun. It kind of

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Speaker 1: reminds me of how like when we read colonial accounts

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Speaker 1: from North America, people will describe indigenous leaders as kings

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Speaker 1: and queens, when that wasn't really how they saw their

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00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 1: own role at all. And it's not clear to me

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Speaker 1: what the situation is here.

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Speaker 2: And some of this may have been a misunderstanding on

338
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,360
Speaker 2: the part of the people of Seville, but Luis Soleto

339
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 2: and his family also may have been exaggerating things intentionally.

340
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 2: Aside from overinflating the rank of date Masamune and of

341
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,680
Speaker 2: the delegation. All of this publicity totally concealed the fact

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Speaker 2: that Hasakura and Soleto were likely doing this, because if

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Speaker 2: they didn't, they would have faced execution.

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Speaker 1: One thing to note here is some scholars have concluded

345
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Speaker 1: that this delegation may have had another objective entirely, that

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00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 1: it wasn't just about securing a trade agreement, and also

347
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 1: it didn't really have a religious element so much that

348
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 1: it was to get the Pope to recognize Date Masimune's

349
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 1: domain as independent from the Tokugawa Shogunate. If that's the case,

350
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,879
Speaker 1: this propaganda in Seville may have been less of a

351
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,800
Speaker 1: just overstatement of what their rank was and more like

352
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 1: trying to frame Date Masimune as shogun of his own domain.

353
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Speaker 1: This was the first time that Soleto had returned home

354
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Speaker 1: since leaving in fifth ninety nine to pursue missionary work

355
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: in Asia, so friends and family were probably genuinely eager

356
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 1: to see him. Some of the receptions and other entertainment

357
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: were also arranged by his family or other personal connections,

358
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 1: and a lot of these really sound like they were

359
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 1: more about Sletto than about the Japanese delegation and This

360
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: was a two way street, with Soleto and the delegation

361
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,360
Speaker 1: implying that Seville was being particularly honored by being there

362
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 1: first stop after arriving in Europe. But this really warm

363
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 1: welcome didn't extend beyond Seville very much. Once they got

364
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Speaker 1: to Madrid. Officials there seemed to have seen through all

365
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: of this hype really quickly. Some of them had also

366
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 1: received letters from other missionaries in Japan and Mexico that

367
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 1: made them suspicious and distrustful of Soletto. This included messages

368
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: from other Franciscans who found him to be overly ambitious, scheming, untrustworthy,

369
00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 1: and self serving. They warned that his active vities could

370
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 1: jeopardize the Franciscan's work in the Americas.

371
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Speaker 2: In Asia.

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00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 1: Various letters received in Europe also made it clear that

373
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: Date Masimune wasn't a Christian, definitely wasn't in line to

374
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Speaker 1: be emperor, that he was more like the equivalent of

375
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Speaker 1: a minor noble in Europe.

376
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Speaker 2: Some of the people who had written two authorities about

377
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 2: Soleto also seemed to dislike him personally because they found

378
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 2: him tactless and rude. This came up in Madrid as well,

379
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 2: when Soleto requested that Hasukura be inducted into the Order

380
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 2: of Santiago, which is a military religious order, but only

381
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: Spanish nobles were allowed to join the Order of Santiago,

382
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 2: and they were required to prove their quote purity of blood.

383
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 2: Hasakuta was a Japanese man who had not even been baptized,

384
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Speaker 2: so Soletto's suggestion was seen as appalling.

385
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,360
Speaker 1: In spite of all this, Hasakura did meet with King

386
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 1: of Spain, Philip the Third, delivering a letter from Datee

387
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 1: Masimune requesting open trade between Japan and Spain's colonies and

388
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: the Americas. This letter was also very flattering, describing Hasakura

389
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: as particularly blessed to be able to experience the glory

390
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: of a Christian nation. The King wouldn't give the delegation

391
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 1: a firm answer, though he apparently said that the Pope

392
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: would need to weigh in, so the delegation asked to

393
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: travel to Rome so that they could ask the Pope

394
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 1: to approve a trade agreement, as well as an increase

395
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: in the number of Franciscan friars sent to Japan and

396
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: more financial support for those missionaries work. They also planned

397
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: to ask for Spanish navigators to be sent to Japan

398
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: to teach Japanese sailors and captains about European navigation methods.

399
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: Before they left for Rome. On February seventeenth, sixteen fifteen,

400
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 1: Hasakura Sunanaga and some of the other samurai were publicly baptized.

401
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 1: Issagari's baptism was performed by the King's chaplain, and the King,

402
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: the Queen, and the royal family were all present at

403
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:03,360
Speaker 1: his baptism. He took the name Francisco Felipe Fahikura. When

404
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: the delegation left for Rome, about six of them stayed

405
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: behind in Spain, settling around Corea del Rio outside of Seville. Today,

406
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: there are people living in that area that have the

407
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: surname Hapon that spelled Japo n so it clearly is

408
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: a reference to Japan, and they're believed to be descended

409
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: from members of this delegation. However, not all of them

410
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: seem to have fared well in Spain. There is one

411
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: written reference to a Don Toma Felippe Happon, who wrote

412
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 1: to the Council in sixteen twenty two saying that he

413
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: had been one of the Japanese envoys baptized along with

414
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: Hasekura and that he had since been enslaved in the

415
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: town of Zafra. He asked for his freedom and permission

416
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: to return to Japan, which was granted. To return to

417
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: the delegation. They formally entered Rome on October twenty ninth,

418
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: sixteen fifteen, and they had an audience with Pope Paul

419
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: the Fifth just a few days later, on November three.

420
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 1: This was there's a big contrast to what had happened

421
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: in Madrid, where they spent months waiting for an audience

422
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 1: with the King. Hasakura delivered their request for more missionaries

423
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: and for permission to trade with the colonies. While the

424
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: Pope refused to make a firm commitment on a trade agreement,

425
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: he did agree to send more missionaries.

426
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 2: The Pope also noted the possibility of naming a bishop

427
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 2: of Japan, with Soleto recommended for that role, but he

428
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 2: didn't make a firm commitment on that either. This would

429
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 2: have been politically pretty challenging for the Pope, among other things,

430
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 2: since Portuguese missionaries had been the first ones in Japan,

431
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 2: Portugal thought that any new bishop sent to Japan should

432
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 2: be Portuguese, and Soleto, of course, was Spanish. The delegation

433
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 2: remained in Rome for a few more weeks after this,

434
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 2: receiving holy communion from the Pope during Christmas Mass. Hasakura

435
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 2: was also granted honorary Roman citizenship on January Tewod sixteen sixteen.

436
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 2: His portrait was also painted more than once while he

437
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 2: was in Rome. One portrait is attributed to either Clauderette

438
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 2: or Arquita Ricci and shows Hasekura in loose fitting embroidered

439
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 2: Japanese garments. He's carrying traditional swords and behind him is

440
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 2: a painting of a galleon with what looks like angels

441
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 2: in the sky above it. Another is credited to the

442
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: school of Giovanni Nicolo, and it shows Hasakura dressed in

443
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 2: black Western religious attire, kneeling before a crucifix with his

444
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 2: hands folded in prayer.

445
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: Hazakura, four other Japanese men, and Luis Sileto are all

446
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: depicted in a fresco in the Crinal Palace in Rome,

447
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: which is part of a series of frescoes depicting emissaries

448
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: that had been received by Pope Paul the Fifth. The

449
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: artists who worked on this series of paintings included Agostino Tassi,

450
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: Giovanni Lamfranco and others. These frescoes were painted by order

451
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: of the pope, and they were one of the ways

452
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: that he was sort of reen forcing his own legacy.

453
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: He was documenting how many delegations he had received from

454
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: other parts of the world and suggesting that under his direction,

455
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: the Church had been particularly successful in its missionary efforts

456
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: in Asia, Africa, the Middle East, and northern Europe. The

457
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: delegation left Rome on January seventh, sixteen sixteen, and visited

458
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: Florence and other cities in Italy. Before leaving Europe. Pasecuta

459
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: returned to Madrid and made one final attempt to secure

460
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: a trade agreement with Spain. This time the king definitively refused,

461
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: apparently giving the reason that since Haskuta was representing only

462
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: the daimyo of one region, not the ruler of all

463
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: of Japan, he was just not authorized to make this

464
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: kind of agreement. Word had also reached Spain that persecution

465
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: of Christians in Japan was increasing, which might have been

466
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: another factor in the king's refusal. Hassakra's delegation left Europe

467
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: in the summer of sixteen seventeen, reversing their original route

468
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: to get back to Japan, but at first they only

469
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: got as far as Manila. They got there in sixteen

470
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: eighteen and stayed for more than two years. During that time,

471
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: the Catholic Council of the Indies ordered Silato to return

472
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: to New Spain and he left.

473
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: Christians in Japan had faced periods of persecution before the

474
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 2: delegation set sail in sixteen thirteen, and that had really

475
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 2: escalated while they were gone. Tokugawa Yasu had issued an

476
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 2: edict expelling not just missionaries but all Christians from Japan

477
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: in sixteen fourteen, right around the time that the delegation

478
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 2: reached Akapulco. Then Tokugawa Yasu died in sixteen sixteen and

479
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 2: was succeeded by his son, Tokugawa Hidetada. Yeashu had formally

480
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 2: resigned his position as shogun long before that point, but

481
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 2: he had still retained a lot of power. But after

482
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 2: he died, Hidetada took a much stronger stance against Christianity

483
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 2: in Japan. This was motivated in by concerns about whether

484
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 2: Spain would try to conquer Japan if they were allowed

485
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 2: to continue trading and sending missionaries. So Hasakaris Stunanaga was

486
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 2: seen as deeply suspect. Not only had he converted to

487
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 2: Christianity and been baptized, but he had also traveled to

488
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 2: Europe with the objective of expanding Spain's relationship with Japan

489
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,719
Speaker 2: for reasons that aren't entirely clear. Shortly after having a

490
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 2: meeting with Hasakura after his return date, Masimune also outlawed

491
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 2: Christianity in his domain under penalty of exile or death.

492
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 2: A lot of this is, like real poorly documented, but

493
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: it seems like he could have been trying to just

494
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 2: really distance himself from this whole thing in the face

495
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 2: of really changing expectations in Japan. Hasakuda had kept a

496
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 2: journal documenting his travels, but as we noted earlier, some

497
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 2: time after returning to Japan, this was destroyed, along with

498
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 2: other records of the mission. He most likely died in

499
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 2: sixteen twenty two, but there are wildly different unofficial accounts

500
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: about what happened to him. Some say that he had

501
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 2: been baptized in Spain only for the sake of securing

502
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 2: a trade agreement, and that after returning to Japan he

503
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 2: renounced his conversion to Catholicism. Others say that his conversion

504
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: was genuine, and that he became even more devoted to

505
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: Christianity after returning to Japan in spite of escalating threats

506
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: to his life. According to a surviving letter, he also

507
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 2: had a son who was forced to take his own

508
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 2: life for either harboring Christians or being Christian himself in

509
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 2: sixteen forty.

510
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: By the time Hasakura returned to Japan, the members of

511
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: the Ten show Boys delegation that we talked about earlier

512
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: had either died, left Japan or left the Jesuit order,

513
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: with the exception of Julian Nakura, he was still in

514
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: Japan and was still a Jesuit, and during all of

515
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: this he was arrested, tortured, and killed in sixteen twenty three.

516
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: Although Luis Sileto had been ordered to return to New Spain,

517
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: he later went back to Japan in disguise, and soon

518
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: after that he was captured. He was burned at the

519
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: stake on August twenty fifth, sixteen twenty four. In sixteen

520
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: thirty seven, Catholics in the Domain of Shimabara rebelled against

521
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: high taxes and violent suppression of Catholicism. Japanese officials suppressed

522
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: the rebellion by dispatching more than one hundred thousand troops

523
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: with assistance from a Dutch warship. Although various edicts had

524
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: suppressed or expelled Christians before this point, this time Japanese

525
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: officials turned their attention to Europeans more broadly. Japan started

526
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: closing down its borders, entering a period of isolationism known

527
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: as sakoku. Eventually, the only trade that was permitted with

528
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: people outside of Asia was with the Dutch East India Company,

529
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: and then only at the port of Nagasaki. This policy

530
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: continued until the arrival of Commodore Matthew Perry's fleet on

531
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 1: July eighth, eighteen fifty three. Because records of Hasakura Sunanaga's

532
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: voyage were destroyed during this period of isolationism, he mostly

533
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 1: disappeared from Japanese history until eighteen seventy three, when Prince

534
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: Irikura Tomomi found documents recounting the delegation in archives in Venice.

535
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,399
Speaker 1: Emperor Meiji later made the discovery public. Today, there are

536
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: several statues and monuments to Hasakura Sunanaga and his delegation

537
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: around the world. A statue in Corea del Rio, Spain

538
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 1: was donated by the government of Japan in nineteen ninety two.

539
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 1: Another statue is in Havana, Cuba, and there's one in

540
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 1: Via Le Guilliemo Marconi near Porta Livorno in Italy. The

541
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: Hasakura Tunanaga Memorial Park is at the site of his

542
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: tomb in Osato, Japan, and a replica of the San

543
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: Juan Baptista was built at the port where the delegation

544
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: originally sets. These events are also dramatized in the nineteen

545
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: eighty novel The Samurai by Shushako Endo, which was translated

546
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: into English by Vancy Gessel two years later. While this

547
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: is a novel, it's grounded in as much historical fact

548
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: is as known about Hasakura and the delegation. This book

549
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: was also informed by Shushaku Indo's own experiences as a

550
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: Japanese person who was baptized at the age of eleven.

551
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 1: There's also a Japanese TV series about the Ten Show

552
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: Embassy called Magi The Ten Show Boys Embassy? Do you

553
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: also have listener mail for us? I do have listener mail. First,

554
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: I have a quick correction. This is from Christa Krista

555
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,240
Speaker 1: wrote Hi, Tracy and Holly in Today's Six Impossible episodes.

556
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: You say George the Fourth was married to Catherine of Brunswick.

557
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: I think you meant Caroline of Brunswick. It's at thirty

558
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 1: two minutes and forty two seconds on my Apple podcast player.

559
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: I love six Impossible Episodes and I love your mother

560
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 1: Goo's serious best. Christa, Thank you so much, Christa. Indeed,

561
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: I did mean Caroline. This is not even a case

562
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 1: where it was right in the outline and the wrong

563
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: word came out of our mouths, which like that happens sometime.

564
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: The wrong word came out of my typing fingers into

565
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 1: the outline. So thank you for that correction about Caroline

566
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: of Brunswick. I also have an email from Catherine, and

567
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: this is about Outdoor Drama. Uh. And it's been a

568
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: bit since the episode came out where we talked about this,

569
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: but it feels like we're entering Outdoor Drama season. A

570
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 1: lot of that happens in the summer, for sure, so

571
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 1: I felt good about returning to it. Catherine. Note Hi,

572
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,760
Speaker 1: Holly and Tracy. I've been a listener since the early days,

573
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 1: but I've continually been behind by a few weeks or months.

574
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: I'm systematically catching up and I just recently listened to

575
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: your Behind the Scenes episode where you were talking about

576
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: all the historical dramas in North Carolina and wondered if

577
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: those shows existed in other places or not They actually

578
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 1: do kind of. I'm currently a librarian at a performing

579
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,280
Speaker 1: arts school in New York City, but my previous career

580
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: was in musical theater. One of my first jobs in

581
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,240
Speaker 1: my professional theater career was with the historical outdoor drama

582
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: in Ohio. At the time, there were several shows of

583
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 1: that type in Ohio, Trumpet in the Land, Bluejacket, Johnny Appleseed,

584
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 1: and Tecumsa. When I was performing there in the early

585
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: two thousands, there were four outdoor dramas in Ohio. The

586
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: theater I worked at, Trumpet in the Land did two

587
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:35,240
Speaker 1: historically based shows in repertoire with a more standard musical

588
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 1: and a children's show during the summer. The title musical

589
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: was written by Pulitzer Prize winning playwright Paul Green, who

590
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: also wrote The Lost Colony. The theater at Trumpet in

591
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: the Land is still running after more than fifty years

592
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: and has other shows in the outdoor amphitheater during the

593
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:55,439
Speaker 1: non summer months. The other show that Catherine wrote about

594
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,720
Speaker 1: is TECUMSA, which we talked about a couple of times

595
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: in those earlier listener mails. We talked about this, so

596
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: Catherine wrote, ta KEMPSA is celebrating their fiftieth anniversary this summer,

597
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: but after doing some initial slothing, it doesn't look like

598
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 1: the other two are around anymore. During my contract at Trumpet,

599
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: there was definitely some camaraderie between the casts, and we

600
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: each tried to go see the others productions at least

601
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: once during the summer. There was also a bit of

602
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: competition and rivalry going on with regards to which shows

603
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 1: had the best horsemanship, gunplay, and various other stunts and

604
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: special effects.

605
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:27,879
Speaker 2: I think the.

606
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: Early two thousands may have been the heyday of outdoor

607
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: drama because there used to be a specific audition for

608
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: it yes in North Carolina each spring, where actors could

609
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: audition once for representatives from theaters all around the country

610
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: that had outdoor performances, regardless of whether or not they

611
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 1: were historical. It looks like that standalone audition does not

612
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: exist anymore and is now part of the larger Southeast

613
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 1: Theater Conference SETC Auditions. However, it looks like there is

614
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: still an active National Conference on Outdoor Theater under the

615
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: satc umbrella. Hearing Tracy mentioned the Lost Colony immediately brought

616
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 1: back memories of friends I made doing other theater contracts

617
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: and how they used to rag about how it was

618
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 1: the first and best of all the outdoor historical plays

619
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 1: and they never would let anyone forget that Tony Award

620
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,439
Speaker 1: winning costume designer William Ivy Long did the costumes there.

621
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 1: In the years since, there have been some allegations regarding

622
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: Long and some of his actions with some of his

623
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 1: college age costuming assistants, so that's not really something they

624
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: usually readily bring up now, but back in the day

625
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: it was all anyone talked about. Even though this is

626
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: almost a year later, I thought i'd provide some backstory

627
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: for an interesting topic that I happen to have some

628
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: personal experience with. I'm thankful I have the opportunity to

629
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: work out a job that confines two things. I love

630
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: libraries and performing arts. This way, even though I'm not

631
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,280
Speaker 1: a professional singer slash dancer myself anymore, I still feel

632
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: connected to it. My undergraduates degrees were in musical theater

633
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: and ballet, so I always live hearing Holly's ballet memories

634
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: as they prod some of my own things. Thank you

635
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,439
Speaker 1: for the fascinating topics. I learn love to learn about

636
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: new things as I'm walking outside or just taking me

637
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: time to relax, Catherine. Thank you so much for this email, Catherine.

638
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: In addition to talking about some outdoor drama stuff that

639
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: we did not talk about and listener mail from that

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00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: episode originally came out, this reminded me of my days

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Speaker 1: as a youth going to setc with my high school.

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Speaker 1: If you would like to send us a note about

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Speaker 1: Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For

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