1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:23,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin. This season of The Happiness Lab is all about 2 00:00:23,596 --> 00:00:26,756 Speaker 1: coping strategies, and one of my favorite go to coping 3 00:00:26,796 --> 00:00:30,196 Speaker 1: strategies is music. With just a few clicks on my phone, 4 00:00:30,236 --> 00:00:31,956 Speaker 1: I can pick a track that will help calm me 5 00:00:32,036 --> 00:00:34,436 Speaker 1: down in times of stress, or pump me up when 6 00:00:34,436 --> 00:00:37,436 Speaker 1: I'm facing a challenge, or transport me back to happier 7 00:00:37,476 --> 00:00:41,756 Speaker 1: times when I'm feeling blue. But as a professional composer 8 00:00:41,796 --> 00:00:45,516 Speaker 1: and celebrated cellist, my guest on today's episode has developed 9 00:00:45,516 --> 00:00:49,476 Speaker 1: a way more profound relationship with music. Joshua Roman began 10 00:00:49,556 --> 00:00:52,836 Speaker 1: playing a child sized cello at age three and gave 11 00:00:52,876 --> 00:00:56,236 Speaker 1: his first public recital at age ten. He's now played 12 00:00:56,276 --> 00:00:59,076 Speaker 1: with great orchestras and collaborated with some of the top 13 00:00:59,156 --> 00:01:02,716 Speaker 1: names in classical music. Joshua was a huge rising star 14 00:01:03,156 --> 00:01:06,636 Speaker 1: and driving himself to ever greater heights until he was 15 00:01:06,676 --> 00:01:08,956 Speaker 1: struck down by long COVID. 16 00:01:09,956 --> 00:01:15,756 Speaker 2: And it took a debilitating condition to strip me of 17 00:01:15,836 --> 00:01:20,436 Speaker 2: all ability before I let myself just be and that 18 00:01:20,476 --> 00:01:24,556 Speaker 2: has changed everything about how I feel with music and 19 00:01:25,356 --> 00:01:28,276 Speaker 2: really with life and the people around me. 20 00:01:29,156 --> 00:01:31,716 Speaker 1: So to continue our journey into the coping strategies that 21 00:01:31,796 --> 00:01:35,516 Speaker 1: real people use to tackle real problems. I've asked Joshua 22 00:01:35,556 --> 00:01:38,276 Speaker 1: to explain how music has not only helped him during 23 00:01:38,316 --> 00:01:41,636 Speaker 1: times of adversity, but also how those times of adversity 24 00:01:41,996 --> 00:01:44,356 Speaker 1: have helped him to regain something he'd lost in his 25 00:01:44,396 --> 00:01:47,996 Speaker 1: relationship with music. But before jumping into all that, let's 26 00:01:48,036 --> 00:01:52,156 Speaker 1: start at the beginning, the overture, as it were, Josh's childhood. 27 00:01:54,756 --> 00:01:58,756 Speaker 2: It's hard to know exactly the moment when the love 28 00:01:58,796 --> 00:02:01,356 Speaker 2: of cello took over, but I do remember the day 29 00:02:01,396 --> 00:02:04,356 Speaker 2: that cello arrived. I was three years old. I remember 30 00:02:04,356 --> 00:02:05,916 Speaker 2: the house I was in. We only lived in that 31 00:02:05,956 --> 00:02:09,076 Speaker 2: house for maybe half of a year. The ups two 32 00:02:09,236 --> 00:02:13,396 Speaker 2: livery lady with her brown shorts, and the box was 33 00:02:13,436 --> 00:02:15,916 Speaker 2: bigger than me. It was a small cello, but still, 34 00:02:16,316 --> 00:02:20,556 Speaker 2: and I don't remember ever not loving it. And I 35 00:02:20,596 --> 00:02:23,876 Speaker 2: know that by six I was telling people that this 36 00:02:23,996 --> 00:02:25,356 Speaker 2: is what I wanted to do with the rest of 37 00:02:25,356 --> 00:02:28,836 Speaker 2: my life. But there's not really a moment where there 38 00:02:28,876 --> 00:02:31,476 Speaker 2: was a transition. It just feels like it was always 39 00:02:31,876 --> 00:02:32,636 Speaker 2: going to happen. 40 00:02:33,356 --> 00:02:35,156 Speaker 1: And So tell me a little bit about your childhood 41 00:02:35,156 --> 00:02:37,316 Speaker 1: and how cello fit in. I'm kind of thinking about 42 00:02:37,396 --> 00:02:39,356 Speaker 1: the things that you went through and how cello was 43 00:02:39,396 --> 00:02:40,516 Speaker 1: helping you cope back then. 44 00:02:41,116 --> 00:02:44,796 Speaker 2: Well, I grew up in Oklahoma, and it's not the 45 00:02:44,836 --> 00:02:48,836 Speaker 2: place with the biggest infrastructure for classical musicians. My parents 46 00:02:49,316 --> 00:02:52,196 Speaker 2: were church musicians that were recently retired. Now, my dad 47 00:02:52,236 --> 00:02:56,276 Speaker 2: was the choir director at that point getting his degree 48 00:02:56,396 --> 00:02:58,836 Speaker 2: or whatever it is that makes him officially a reverend, 49 00:02:58,956 --> 00:03:01,636 Speaker 2: So he's officially a reverend, but he was always focused 50 00:03:01,676 --> 00:03:05,556 Speaker 2: on the community and engagement and especially music, so very 51 00:03:05,636 --> 00:03:08,636 Speaker 2: much a musical family. My mom would play the piano 52 00:03:09,156 --> 00:03:13,356 Speaker 2: companying the choir, and that's kind of what I fell into, 53 00:03:13,476 --> 00:03:15,836 Speaker 2: is just music being a part of our everyday lives 54 00:03:15,836 --> 00:03:18,436 Speaker 2: and a part of our experience with the people around us. 55 00:03:19,196 --> 00:03:24,956 Speaker 2: Music was something that happened at lessons on Thursdays or 56 00:03:24,996 --> 00:03:27,476 Speaker 2: Wednesdays or whenever that was, and you would practice and 57 00:03:27,476 --> 00:03:30,476 Speaker 2: prepare for that. But in between, music was all the time. 58 00:03:30,556 --> 00:03:33,876 Speaker 2: We were always singing, we were always playing whatever instruments 59 00:03:33,876 --> 00:03:38,316 Speaker 2: were lying around. From a very early age, I was 60 00:03:38,636 --> 00:03:41,876 Speaker 2: just taught to try it, like why not pick up 61 00:03:41,956 --> 00:03:45,676 Speaker 2: the trombone, play the guitar. And that's something that I 62 00:03:45,756 --> 00:03:50,436 Speaker 2: really cherish, is just music as a way of being 63 00:03:50,516 --> 00:03:55,396 Speaker 2: in community with other people, and that connection and shared experience, 64 00:03:55,436 --> 00:03:56,716 Speaker 2: I think is very powerful. 65 00:03:56,876 --> 00:03:58,516 Speaker 1: It also seems like music was a bit of a 66 00:03:58,556 --> 00:04:00,996 Speaker 1: constant for you when other things were changing around. I 67 00:04:01,076 --> 00:04:02,996 Speaker 1: understand you kind of moved a lot as a kid. 68 00:04:03,076 --> 00:04:04,276 Speaker 1: Kind of describe what that was like. 69 00:04:04,876 --> 00:04:07,676 Speaker 2: We did. We were in a lot of different houses. 70 00:04:07,796 --> 00:04:09,636 Speaker 2: I think by the time I was thirty five, I'd 71 00:04:09,636 --> 00:04:12,676 Speaker 2: lived in more than thirty five places, and a lot 72 00:04:12,716 --> 00:04:15,476 Speaker 2: of that was when I was young. But when I 73 00:04:15,476 --> 00:04:19,276 Speaker 2: didn't know how else to connect with people, I could 74 00:04:19,516 --> 00:04:23,036 Speaker 2: at least join the band. For example, when we moved 75 00:04:23,236 --> 00:04:26,796 Speaker 2: to Mississippi from Oklahoma, I learned to play the bass guitar. 76 00:04:27,596 --> 00:04:31,716 Speaker 2: I would make the cello work. In certain bands, I 77 00:04:31,756 --> 00:04:36,036 Speaker 2: could find the pianists and play with them. Music was 78 00:04:36,076 --> 00:04:40,756 Speaker 2: always a way of connecting with people pretty quickly, and 79 00:04:40,916 --> 00:04:44,036 Speaker 2: you start to make sound together and you don't have 80 00:04:44,116 --> 00:04:45,516 Speaker 2: to talk. It's great. 81 00:04:46,396 --> 00:04:48,436 Speaker 1: It also seems like you started noticing the benefits of 82 00:04:48,516 --> 00:04:50,676 Speaker 1: music really early on. Right. One of the ones that 83 00:04:50,716 --> 00:04:53,836 Speaker 1: we know from the science is that music is incredibly rewarding. Right, 84 00:04:53,916 --> 00:04:56,476 Speaker 1: Listening to music activates all the same reward areas as 85 00:04:56,516 --> 00:04:59,196 Speaker 1: things like food and money, And it seems like music 86 00:04:59,276 --> 00:05:01,316 Speaker 1: was sort of your go to reward for you know, 87 00:05:01,356 --> 00:05:02,756 Speaker 1: a lot of the time you were growing up. 88 00:05:03,356 --> 00:05:07,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, looking back, a lot of that is reward, 89 00:05:07,076 --> 00:05:10,036 Speaker 2: and some of that might have also been the only 90 00:05:10,156 --> 00:05:13,756 Speaker 2: thing that felt good in that moment. There was lots 91 00:05:13,796 --> 00:05:19,716 Speaker 2: of stuff going on, Scouts orchestra later, that came later, 92 00:05:20,156 --> 00:05:23,836 Speaker 2: A soccer I was always in soccer. I loved studying too. 93 00:05:23,876 --> 00:05:26,876 Speaker 2: I was a real math nerd. I loved all those 94 00:05:27,036 --> 00:05:30,196 Speaker 2: kinds of things. But with music, I could work on 95 00:05:30,276 --> 00:05:32,796 Speaker 2: it in the room alone. I could shut the door 96 00:05:32,836 --> 00:05:35,036 Speaker 2: and say my brothers and sister have to stay out 97 00:05:35,076 --> 00:05:39,356 Speaker 2: because I'm practicing, and I could make progress. I could 98 00:05:39,396 --> 00:05:41,676 Speaker 2: get better at something. I could go, oh, this is cool. 99 00:05:41,756 --> 00:05:44,116 Speaker 2: I really want to do that now, and then I 100 00:05:44,116 --> 00:05:47,156 Speaker 2: could go share it with people. Music let me have 101 00:05:47,996 --> 00:05:52,156 Speaker 2: what felt like, I guess, better interactions or more rewarding 102 00:05:52,236 --> 00:05:54,996 Speaker 2: or meaningful interactions with people because I brought something to 103 00:05:55,036 --> 00:05:58,316 Speaker 2: the table and that was maybe a version of what 104 00:05:58,356 --> 00:06:00,796 Speaker 2: you're talking about, for sure, Yeah, exactly. 105 00:06:00,836 --> 00:06:02,836 Speaker 1: It also seems like music is super good at helping 106 00:06:02,876 --> 00:06:05,116 Speaker 1: us regulate our emotions, whether we want to kind of 107 00:06:05,116 --> 00:06:07,516 Speaker 1: get pumped up and kind of hyped up, or whether 108 00:06:07,516 --> 00:06:10,436 Speaker 1: we want to wallow in our kind of sadness but 109 00:06:10,556 --> 00:06:12,676 Speaker 1: kind of have a beautiful thing to wallow in. Oh yeah, 110 00:06:12,836 --> 00:06:14,916 Speaker 1: Is this something that you found with music early on too? 111 00:06:15,356 --> 00:06:18,796 Speaker 2: Yes? Absolutely, And I would do that with the cello, 112 00:06:18,916 --> 00:06:22,196 Speaker 2: of course, but I would also do that with the 113 00:06:22,316 --> 00:06:26,156 Speaker 2: radio and with tapes and CDs and sometimes records. And 114 00:06:27,196 --> 00:06:30,036 Speaker 2: there's a lot of stuff that I guess I didn't 115 00:06:30,116 --> 00:06:34,396 Speaker 2: understand or have the right context for how to process. 116 00:06:35,036 --> 00:06:37,996 Speaker 2: You know, teenagers have so much, so much going on, 117 00:06:39,116 --> 00:06:42,636 Speaker 2: and music was a place where even if I couldn't 118 00:06:42,996 --> 00:06:46,956 Speaker 2: work through the details, I could feel it, I could 119 00:06:47,036 --> 00:06:51,596 Speaker 2: express it and get some sort of sense that that 120 00:06:51,756 --> 00:06:52,276 Speaker 2: was okay. 121 00:06:53,116 --> 00:06:55,516 Speaker 1: There's also lots of evidence that music can kind of 122 00:06:55,556 --> 00:06:57,836 Speaker 1: make us feel more present, it can make us mindful, 123 00:06:57,836 --> 00:06:59,556 Speaker 1: and I think especially when you're playing music, you can 124 00:06:59,596 --> 00:07:02,716 Speaker 1: get in this state of flow. Is this kind of wonderful, 125 00:07:02,836 --> 00:07:05,596 Speaker 1: happiness inducing state that the psychologist me Hi Cheek set 126 00:07:05,636 --> 00:07:07,236 Speaker 1: me High talked about a lot. While you're kind of 127 00:07:07,676 --> 00:07:10,436 Speaker 1: in the zone, time is past, you're kind of forgetting 128 00:07:10,436 --> 00:07:13,596 Speaker 1: your bodily needs, but you're just like feeling great and 129 00:07:13,676 --> 00:07:16,396 Speaker 1: kind of challenging and pushing yourself. And it seems like, 130 00:07:16,556 --> 00:07:18,716 Speaker 1: especially early on, this was something that you got out 131 00:07:18,836 --> 00:07:20,316 Speaker 1: of playing the cello a lot. 132 00:07:20,756 --> 00:07:23,316 Speaker 2: I would obsess overflow, not just in the cello. I 133 00:07:23,316 --> 00:07:26,796 Speaker 2: think cello was where it was most successive, is most 134 00:07:26,836 --> 00:07:30,116 Speaker 2: accessible to me because you're doing so many of the 135 00:07:30,156 --> 00:07:33,356 Speaker 2: things that flow requires in terms of openness and focus 136 00:07:33,396 --> 00:07:35,876 Speaker 2: at the same time. And I mean, I would really 137 00:07:35,876 --> 00:07:39,596 Speaker 2: geek out about this. I pretty young read The Inner 138 00:07:39,596 --> 00:07:43,276 Speaker 2: Game of Tennis, which talks about flow. But I was 139 00:07:43,436 --> 00:07:47,676 Speaker 2: always really into that basic idea that you could find 140 00:07:47,716 --> 00:07:51,996 Speaker 2: a state of awareness or of being that allowed you 141 00:07:52,836 --> 00:07:56,436 Speaker 2: to have that feeling like time didn't exist. 142 00:07:56,596 --> 00:07:58,796 Speaker 1: And so you found a way to get these benefits 143 00:07:58,916 --> 00:08:00,916 Speaker 1: kind of permanently as your career. I love that you 144 00:08:00,916 --> 00:08:03,196 Speaker 1: announced at six years of age, like, oh, do playing 145 00:08:03,236 --> 00:08:06,276 Speaker 1: the cello forever? But yeah, you actually kind of went 146 00:08:06,316 --> 00:08:07,916 Speaker 1: good on that. I announced at six years old that 147 00:08:07,916 --> 00:08:09,356 Speaker 1: I was going to be a dolphin trainer, but I 148 00:08:09,356 --> 00:08:13,076 Speaker 1: did not make good on that. There's still time, still time, right, 149 00:08:13,116 --> 00:08:15,476 Speaker 1: but you jumped in early. So tell me about the 150 00:08:15,516 --> 00:08:17,676 Speaker 1: paths of becoming a professional cellist. 151 00:08:18,396 --> 00:08:21,596 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Well, I guess I'm glad that I 152 00:08:21,636 --> 00:08:25,196 Speaker 2: didn't know what I was doing when I said that, 153 00:08:25,396 --> 00:08:28,596 Speaker 2: and no one around me knew either. Again, no infrastructure 154 00:08:28,596 --> 00:08:32,756 Speaker 2: for classical music in Oklahoma. I was studying with a violinist. 155 00:08:32,836 --> 00:08:35,236 Speaker 2: I didn't even have a cello teacher. I was playing 156 00:08:35,276 --> 00:08:38,316 Speaker 2: the cello and he would be on the violin demonstrating, 157 00:08:39,076 --> 00:08:43,636 Speaker 2: and I would copy on the cello. But basically my parents' 158 00:08:44,116 --> 00:08:48,076 Speaker 2: thought was, we can't find the cello teacher that we 159 00:08:48,116 --> 00:08:51,476 Speaker 2: want that will agree to take a three year old, 160 00:08:51,956 --> 00:08:54,716 Speaker 2: so we'll do the next best thing. We'll just find 161 00:08:54,756 --> 00:08:57,236 Speaker 2: the best musician that will take a three year old, 162 00:08:57,316 --> 00:08:59,636 Speaker 2: and that happened to be a violinist. So from the 163 00:08:59,716 --> 00:09:04,236 Speaker 2: very beginning it was kind of a hodgepodge of things that, 164 00:09:04,356 --> 00:09:07,716 Speaker 2: on one hand had these very deep values, you know, 165 00:09:07,796 --> 00:09:10,676 Speaker 2: we're gonna do the best possible with what we have. 166 00:09:11,556 --> 00:09:14,396 Speaker 2: At the same time, it was a lot of different 167 00:09:14,396 --> 00:09:16,676 Speaker 2: things pieced together. It was a violin teacher I was 168 00:09:16,676 --> 00:09:21,436 Speaker 2: in Oklahoma. Most of my formative chamber music experiences were 169 00:09:21,956 --> 00:09:27,516 Speaker 2: with rock bands, essentially me and my friends. Often I 170 00:09:27,556 --> 00:09:29,596 Speaker 2: would be on the cello, sometimes I would grab a 171 00:09:29,596 --> 00:09:33,036 Speaker 2: different instrument or just seeing I think my first string 172 00:09:33,116 --> 00:09:36,396 Speaker 2: quartet experience wasn't until I was thirteen or something, and 173 00:09:36,396 --> 00:09:38,996 Speaker 2: I'd been playing for ten years at that point, which 174 00:09:39,036 --> 00:09:43,036 Speaker 2: is a long time to go thinking this is what 175 00:09:43,076 --> 00:09:44,916 Speaker 2: I want to do with the rest of my life 176 00:09:45,556 --> 00:09:50,036 Speaker 2: and not experiencing what the usual path would be. 177 00:09:50,276 --> 00:09:52,316 Speaker 1: But you were able to kind of jump into this profession. 178 00:09:52,676 --> 00:09:54,996 Speaker 1: You were thriving in your career. You were killing it. 179 00:09:55,436 --> 00:09:58,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, as a classical cellist. I don't know 180 00:09:58,636 --> 00:10:01,756 Speaker 2: what people think of that career or what it entails. 181 00:10:01,956 --> 00:10:04,796 Speaker 2: The particular thing that I do as a soloist is 182 00:10:04,876 --> 00:10:08,116 Speaker 2: I don't regularly play with any particular orchestra. I'm not 183 00:10:08,156 --> 00:10:10,356 Speaker 2: a member of an orchestra, a member of a group, 184 00:10:10,476 --> 00:10:12,476 Speaker 2: or anything like that. I don't teach at a university. 185 00:10:13,116 --> 00:10:16,556 Speaker 2: I travel around as the guest artist with an orchestra 186 00:10:17,116 --> 00:10:20,316 Speaker 2: when they played what we call the concerto, where there's 187 00:10:20,516 --> 00:10:23,556 Speaker 2: a spotlight on the guest artist who is the soloist. 188 00:10:23,676 --> 00:10:27,996 Speaker 2: The piece of music they're playing is often from centuries ago, 189 00:10:28,196 --> 00:10:31,956 Speaker 2: sometimes it's brand new, but it's always a big feature. 190 00:10:32,596 --> 00:10:36,556 Speaker 2: And this was my dream. It's incredible to be able 191 00:10:36,596 --> 00:10:39,876 Speaker 2: to do this at all, let alone nike a living 192 00:10:39,956 --> 00:10:42,956 Speaker 2: doing it. It's very difficult. There are only a handful 193 00:10:42,996 --> 00:10:46,796 Speaker 2: of cellists in the country who are able to do 194 00:10:46,996 --> 00:10:51,916 Speaker 2: that and not also do other things. So I felt like, 195 00:10:52,276 --> 00:10:55,356 Speaker 2: despite all of my insecurities, I was really I was 196 00:10:55,396 --> 00:10:56,356 Speaker 2: really on the right path. 197 00:10:56,716 --> 00:10:59,876 Speaker 1: But what happened in March twenty twenty when COVID hit. 198 00:11:00,036 --> 00:11:02,956 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was March twelfth. My manager calls 199 00:11:03,676 --> 00:11:08,916 Speaker 2: and an entire year of work was just wiped off 200 00:11:08,956 --> 00:11:11,916 Speaker 2: the calendar. At the time, I was also doing a 201 00:11:11,956 --> 00:11:15,956 Speaker 2: residency for composing, so I was living in Santa Barbara, 202 00:11:16,716 --> 00:11:19,796 Speaker 2: and so all of my belongings were in storage in 203 00:11:19,796 --> 00:11:23,196 Speaker 2: New York City. I had no fixed address. I was 204 00:11:24,236 --> 00:11:26,596 Speaker 2: not in any of the systems that you needed to 205 00:11:26,676 --> 00:11:29,716 Speaker 2: be in to get unemployment. So that phone call where 206 00:11:29,716 --> 00:11:33,476 Speaker 2: everything was wiped off the map was like pretty devastating. 207 00:11:33,876 --> 00:11:35,596 Speaker 1: Was that a time that you turned back to music 208 00:11:35,716 --> 00:11:36,436 Speaker 1: to kind of cope? 209 00:11:36,996 --> 00:11:40,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's interesting, Laurie. I'm curious about this. 210 00:11:40,356 --> 00:11:42,476 Speaker 2: I don't think I did it in the most healthy way, 211 00:11:43,276 --> 00:11:46,876 Speaker 2: you know, Like I don't actually have any home at 212 00:11:46,876 --> 00:11:51,196 Speaker 2: that point, and I'm very lonely because I went out 213 00:11:51,196 --> 00:11:56,116 Speaker 2: there for solitude, for beauty of nature, to have inspiration 214 00:11:56,196 --> 00:11:59,396 Speaker 2: to write music, and I don't feel like I had 215 00:11:59,636 --> 00:12:01,916 Speaker 2: much of a choice but to double down on that, 216 00:12:02,036 --> 00:12:04,156 Speaker 2: So I did. I doubled down on that. I was 217 00:12:04,236 --> 00:12:08,916 Speaker 2: trying to compose. I started doing a live stream every 218 00:12:08,956 --> 00:12:10,236 Speaker 2: day day for a while. 219 00:12:10,916 --> 00:12:11,356 Speaker 1: Wow. 220 00:12:11,436 --> 00:12:15,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, just trying to feel connected to people. But I 221 00:12:15,196 --> 00:12:19,596 Speaker 2: was actually just alone. So music was kind of that 222 00:12:19,796 --> 00:12:24,716 Speaker 2: desperate lifeline. And it's hard to say that it made 223 00:12:24,796 --> 00:12:27,356 Speaker 2: me happy, but I guess it kept me going. 224 00:12:27,796 --> 00:12:30,876 Speaker 1: But a lot of things changed back in early twenty 225 00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:34,196 Speaker 1: twenty one. And so tell me what happened that fateful 226 00:12:34,236 --> 00:12:34,876 Speaker 1: day in Florida. 227 00:12:35,156 --> 00:12:39,836 Speaker 2: All Right, So twenty twenty one, COVID had been going on. 228 00:12:40,116 --> 00:12:43,716 Speaker 2: This was January, So for a good nine ten months, 229 00:12:44,236 --> 00:12:47,516 Speaker 2: almost all of my concerts were canceled. One of the 230 00:12:47,516 --> 00:12:51,476 Speaker 2: only ones that wasn't was this performance in Florida. And 231 00:12:52,276 --> 00:12:54,516 Speaker 2: you know, I didn't have as many restrictions, and the 232 00:12:54,636 --> 00:13:01,476 Speaker 2: orchestra was extremely careful and great, so I felt comfortable 233 00:13:01,556 --> 00:13:04,756 Speaker 2: going despite everything else, and there was no way that 234 00:13:04,796 --> 00:13:08,196 Speaker 2: I was going to cancel one of the only opportunities 235 00:13:08,196 --> 00:13:12,956 Speaker 2: that I had in a whole year to perform and also, frankly, 236 00:13:13,116 --> 00:13:16,476 Speaker 2: to work and get paid. Not only was this an 237 00:13:16,556 --> 00:13:19,636 Speaker 2: important concert because it was one of the only concerts, 238 00:13:19,916 --> 00:13:24,076 Speaker 2: it's also this incredible piece. It's the Sinfonia Concertante the 239 00:13:24,116 --> 00:13:28,236 Speaker 2: Symphony Concretto by Sergei Prokofiev, which is a mammoth work. 240 00:13:28,556 --> 00:13:31,996 Speaker 2: The cello is just crazy. It goes all the way 241 00:13:32,076 --> 00:13:36,196 Speaker 2: up to the heights, serene, it plummets down to the depths. 242 00:13:36,236 --> 00:13:42,356 Speaker 2: It's wild and frenetic and chaotic. It's so difficult technically. 243 00:13:42,876 --> 00:13:45,836 Speaker 2: And this was my first performance of this piece ever 244 00:13:45,916 --> 00:13:50,356 Speaker 2: with an orchestra. And I got to Florida and played 245 00:13:50,396 --> 00:13:53,956 Speaker 2: the first concert. We're so excited. The next morning I 246 00:13:54,036 --> 00:13:58,596 Speaker 2: woke up and I couldn't really taste the toothpaste very well. 247 00:13:58,996 --> 00:14:02,316 Speaker 2: The thing that I remember as thinking, uh oh, and 248 00:14:02,396 --> 00:14:06,116 Speaker 2: grabbing a box of altoids and stuffing my nose in 249 00:14:06,156 --> 00:14:10,356 Speaker 2: it and nothing, And I was, no, this is not good. 250 00:14:10,996 --> 00:14:13,916 Speaker 1: It wasn't good. In fact, it was about to get 251 00:14:13,996 --> 00:14:17,836 Speaker 1: far worse than Joshua ever expected. But more on that. 252 00:14:18,236 --> 00:14:29,156 Speaker 1: After the break we left Cellis Joshua Roman on a 253 00:14:29,196 --> 00:14:33,516 Speaker 1: concert tour, frantically sniffing toothpaste and altoids, checking to see 254 00:14:33,556 --> 00:14:36,676 Speaker 1: if a sense of smell really had disappeared, a sure 255 00:14:36,756 --> 00:14:38,156 Speaker 1: sign that he'd caught COVID. 256 00:14:38,716 --> 00:14:42,436 Speaker 2: I panicked a bit, got a test, and of course 257 00:14:42,476 --> 00:14:47,036 Speaker 2: it came back positive. The orchestra canceled that concert. I 258 00:14:47,076 --> 00:14:51,236 Speaker 2: found a place to hole up for a while. My 259 00:14:51,436 --> 00:14:55,196 Speaker 2: infection was not that bad, it was kind of weird. 260 00:14:55,316 --> 00:15:01,716 Speaker 2: I mostly had the unrecognizable symptoms. I wasn't coughing, but 261 00:15:01,796 --> 00:15:05,676 Speaker 2: I was short of breath. I wasn't sneezing, but I 262 00:15:05,716 --> 00:15:08,516 Speaker 2: couldn't smell or taste. There were weird things going on 263 00:15:08,596 --> 00:15:11,956 Speaker 2: with fatigue that didn't just feel like being tired, and 264 00:15:11,996 --> 00:15:13,556 Speaker 2: then I just never got better. 265 00:15:13,756 --> 00:15:17,076 Speaker 1: So awful, and so describe what that fatigue was like. 266 00:15:17,956 --> 00:15:22,676 Speaker 2: It was really strange. It's like I'm wearing a coat 267 00:15:22,716 --> 00:15:28,356 Speaker 2: of heavy metal or armor underneath my skin, embedded in 268 00:15:28,396 --> 00:15:31,876 Speaker 2: the muscles, like everything is just so difficult to move. 269 00:15:32,716 --> 00:15:36,636 Speaker 2: Or if you've ever woken up at the wrong time 270 00:15:37,356 --> 00:15:42,756 Speaker 2: with jet lag and not been able to sort out 271 00:15:42,956 --> 00:15:46,236 Speaker 2: how to lift your arm, that's a similar feeling. 272 00:15:46,436 --> 00:15:48,556 Speaker 1: Okay, I've had bad jet lag, but my arms have 273 00:15:48,596 --> 00:15:51,836 Speaker 1: always worked. Like when you traveling to like Europe for Asia. 274 00:15:51,956 --> 00:15:52,916 Speaker 1: This is a new one for me. 275 00:15:53,196 --> 00:15:56,196 Speaker 2: Well, I the only times that's happened to me are yes, 276 00:15:56,516 --> 00:16:00,396 Speaker 2: traveling to Asia or something and then waking up totally 277 00:16:00,476 --> 00:16:04,476 Speaker 2: at the wrong time and your body's so confused. If 278 00:16:04,516 --> 00:16:07,676 Speaker 2: anyone listening has felt that. Drop it in the comments. 279 00:16:08,516 --> 00:16:12,956 Speaker 2: I love the ways that we describe sensations because it's 280 00:16:13,076 --> 00:16:16,396 Speaker 2: really difficult to pin down whether we're talking about the 281 00:16:16,396 --> 00:16:20,316 Speaker 2: same thing. Yeah, so much of the time. But the 282 00:16:20,436 --> 00:16:25,116 Speaker 2: quality of this fatigue is not sleepiness. It has nothing 283 00:16:25,236 --> 00:16:27,956 Speaker 2: to do with I need to go to bed. It 284 00:16:27,996 --> 00:16:31,556 Speaker 2: has everything to do with I don't know how to 285 00:16:31,996 --> 00:16:35,716 Speaker 2: get the energy to move something, or to lift my arm, 286 00:16:36,036 --> 00:16:38,876 Speaker 2: or when it comes to thinking. Last night, I was 287 00:16:38,956 --> 00:16:42,236 Speaker 2: laying on the ground and I realized in conversation with 288 00:16:42,316 --> 00:16:45,516 Speaker 2: my fiance that I couldn't think. I could only speak 289 00:16:45,596 --> 00:16:49,116 Speaker 2: like I couldn't conjure up words unless I was saying them. 290 00:16:49,116 --> 00:16:51,556 Speaker 2: And I don't know exactly what's going on with that, 291 00:16:51,676 --> 00:16:59,636 Speaker 2: but physically, cognitively, this fatigue is debilitating, and sleep doesn't 292 00:16:59,916 --> 00:17:00,316 Speaker 2: fix it. 293 00:17:00,636 --> 00:17:02,556 Speaker 1: You also had this condition that I've heard of with 294 00:17:02,636 --> 00:17:05,996 Speaker 1: long COVID called dysautonomia. Yes, what's that? And what did 295 00:17:06,036 --> 00:17:06,556 Speaker 1: that feel like? 296 00:17:06,716 --> 00:17:09,076 Speaker 2: Well? I still have that one, though it's a lot 297 00:17:09,556 --> 00:17:13,236 Speaker 2: less inhibiting than it used to be. It's a nervous 298 00:17:13,276 --> 00:17:17,916 Speaker 2: system condition. And this is my bastardization of something that 299 00:17:17,956 --> 00:17:21,596 Speaker 2: I heard from a doctor somewhere so please forgive me. 300 00:17:21,676 --> 00:17:25,476 Speaker 2: But the nervous system generally takes an input like a 301 00:17:25,516 --> 00:17:29,916 Speaker 2: temperature change, and then the output would be what the 302 00:17:29,956 --> 00:17:32,996 Speaker 2: body does in response, so sweating to cool you off, 303 00:17:33,116 --> 00:17:36,276 Speaker 2: for example, or in the other direction, shivering to warm 304 00:17:36,356 --> 00:17:42,036 Speaker 2: you up. And similarly, when you're running a marathon in 305 00:17:42,756 --> 00:17:45,916 Speaker 2: mile twenty one or whatever it is, when your body 306 00:17:46,316 --> 00:17:51,276 Speaker 2: is really trying to slow you down, that feeling is 307 00:17:51,636 --> 00:17:56,996 Speaker 2: the nervous system giving you signals because of the information 308 00:17:57,276 --> 00:18:01,596 Speaker 2: it's receiving from the body. Otherwise you wouldn't have that feeling. 309 00:18:01,636 --> 00:18:03,956 Speaker 2: You would just keep going in damage, tissues and all 310 00:18:03,996 --> 00:18:08,996 Speaker 2: that sort of thing. So dysautonomia is when those signals 311 00:18:09,236 --> 00:18:13,556 Speaker 2: are mixed up, when those wires get crossed. Yesterday I 312 00:18:13,596 --> 00:18:16,476 Speaker 2: was walking up to subway stairs. I had to stop 313 00:18:17,076 --> 00:18:21,516 Speaker 2: three times for one flight of stairs. And I know 314 00:18:21,556 --> 00:18:24,916 Speaker 2: that my muscles can do this, but my nervous system, 315 00:18:25,716 --> 00:18:30,716 Speaker 2: using the sensation of fatigue and heaviness, is screaming You've 316 00:18:30,756 --> 00:18:33,676 Speaker 2: done way too much. It's a mix up. It's a 317 00:18:33,716 --> 00:18:36,116 Speaker 2: mix up of signals. In the same way that sometimes 318 00:18:36,156 --> 00:18:42,476 Speaker 2: I will start shivering uncontrollably, feel incredibly cold, and everyone 319 00:18:42,516 --> 00:18:44,396 Speaker 2: else is in shorts and a T shirt. 320 00:18:44,956 --> 00:18:47,636 Speaker 1: Fine, So give me a sense of how these changes 321 00:18:47,676 --> 00:18:49,636 Speaker 1: affected your life, Like, what was your kind of morning 322 00:18:49,676 --> 00:18:53,036 Speaker 1: routine like before long COVID kicked in versus now? 323 00:18:53,756 --> 00:18:59,116 Speaker 2: Well, let's start with the sleeping Four hours was kind 324 00:18:59,156 --> 00:19:02,996 Speaker 2: of what I considered the necessary six was great and 325 00:19:03,156 --> 00:19:06,956 Speaker 2: anything past that was a waste of time. So if 326 00:19:06,996 --> 00:19:09,916 Speaker 2: I went to bed at four, I'd be up by ten. 327 00:19:10,076 --> 00:19:13,236 Speaker 2: If I went to bed at midnight, which was very rare, 328 00:19:13,756 --> 00:19:18,156 Speaker 2: then I'd be up by six. And the passa meditation 329 00:19:18,556 --> 00:19:20,516 Speaker 2: an hour in the morning and an hour in the 330 00:19:20,556 --> 00:19:26,396 Speaker 2: evening and charge it the day. Let's go run six miles. 331 00:19:26,756 --> 00:19:29,516 Speaker 2: How close to one hundred pushups in a row can 332 00:19:29,516 --> 00:19:32,116 Speaker 2: we do? Can we clap in between? What if we 333 00:19:32,236 --> 00:19:34,996 Speaker 2: do a workout class where we lift weights and then 334 00:19:35,076 --> 00:19:38,756 Speaker 2: a yoga class so that the brain will be really clear, 335 00:19:39,396 --> 00:19:43,836 Speaker 2: and then I can jump into composing or practicing. 336 00:19:44,156 --> 00:19:45,996 Speaker 1: And so what's it like now? I get the sense 337 00:19:46,036 --> 00:19:46,836 Speaker 1: that it's very different. 338 00:19:47,556 --> 00:19:51,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. You ask me again. My fiance Ana Luisa, 339 00:19:51,676 --> 00:19:55,236 Speaker 2: it'd be funny to get her perspective because we met. 340 00:19:55,756 --> 00:19:58,596 Speaker 2: Since I've gotten a long COVID, it's been over four 341 00:19:58,676 --> 00:20:01,716 Speaker 2: years now, so I've had to adjust to this to 342 00:20:01,756 --> 00:20:06,756 Speaker 2: a certain degree. She doesn't know the difference. She hasn't 343 00:20:06,836 --> 00:20:09,676 Speaker 2: seen me wake up and run out the door. I 344 00:20:09,676 --> 00:20:13,756 Speaker 2: mean now, I wake up and meditate as close to 345 00:20:13,796 --> 00:20:16,196 Speaker 2: twenty minutes as I can get, and sometimes it's not 346 00:20:16,276 --> 00:20:20,116 Speaker 2: a full twenty minutes, and I take about an hour 347 00:20:20,196 --> 00:20:23,596 Speaker 2: and a half or so to wake up. My body 348 00:20:23,676 --> 00:20:29,316 Speaker 2: just feels weird. It has these extra sensations all over 349 00:20:29,556 --> 00:20:33,516 Speaker 2: that are not really comfortable, and they stop me from 350 00:20:33,556 --> 00:20:38,836 Speaker 2: being able to move with ease. My brain, similarly have 351 00:20:38,956 --> 00:20:42,916 Speaker 2: to be really careful because if I do too much, 352 00:20:43,156 --> 00:20:47,036 Speaker 2: Let's say, if I do this Saturday morning New York 353 00:20:47,076 --> 00:20:51,956 Speaker 2: Times crossword puzzle, then I'm gonna need a break. So 354 00:20:52,116 --> 00:20:54,556 Speaker 2: I really have to think about what's coming in the day, 355 00:20:55,196 --> 00:20:57,676 Speaker 2: spend a lot more time planning. I go to bed 356 00:20:57,676 --> 00:20:59,876 Speaker 2: at ten thirty and I get up at seven fifteen 357 00:21:00,276 --> 00:21:02,356 Speaker 2: every night. It's a different world. 358 00:21:02,796 --> 00:21:05,716 Speaker 1: And how has that changed your cello practice? 359 00:21:05,916 --> 00:21:08,436 Speaker 2: Well, when I first was trying to play the cello again, 360 00:21:09,156 --> 00:21:13,236 Speaker 2: I would play for two or three minutes and that's it. 361 00:21:13,276 --> 00:21:15,476 Speaker 2: That's all I could do in a whole day. Just 362 00:21:16,116 --> 00:21:22,956 Speaker 2: moving the bow was so exhausting. And I had one 363 00:21:23,036 --> 00:21:26,156 Speaker 2: other concert, and I had two months, a little over 364 00:21:26,156 --> 00:21:29,196 Speaker 2: two months, I think, so I was trying to practice 365 00:21:29,196 --> 00:21:31,916 Speaker 2: every day. Eventually I got up to twenty minutes, which 366 00:21:31,956 --> 00:21:34,396 Speaker 2: was the length of the piece that I was playing, 367 00:21:34,956 --> 00:21:38,316 Speaker 2: and that was huge. So for a few days that's 368 00:21:38,356 --> 00:21:40,396 Speaker 2: all I would do is once a day I would 369 00:21:40,476 --> 00:21:43,996 Speaker 2: play that piece. And then I decided to try to 370 00:21:44,076 --> 00:21:48,636 Speaker 2: practice it. And practicing is different than playing. When you're 371 00:21:48,676 --> 00:21:51,676 Speaker 2: just playing through something, you know, you're just having fun 372 00:21:51,916 --> 00:21:55,036 Speaker 2: or you're just going through it. But what I was 373 00:21:55,116 --> 00:21:59,196 Speaker 2: doing was I was thinking, Okay, is this in tune? 374 00:21:59,356 --> 00:22:02,516 Speaker 2: Could this sound different? Would this be better if I 375 00:22:02,676 --> 00:22:06,636 Speaker 2: used different fingers to give it a different feel, you know, 376 00:22:06,676 --> 00:22:11,076 Speaker 2: those sorts of analytical decisions. And instead of twenty minutes, 377 00:22:11,396 --> 00:22:15,436 Speaker 2: it was about a minute or so, and I was shaking, 378 00:22:15,636 --> 00:22:17,716 Speaker 2: had to have help putting the cello away. I couldn't 379 00:22:17,756 --> 00:22:21,116 Speaker 2: open my eyes. I had a complete crash. And it 380 00:22:21,196 --> 00:22:25,396 Speaker 2: was a real lesson in the different ways of engaging 381 00:22:25,556 --> 00:22:28,316 Speaker 2: with music that I was going to have to start 382 00:22:28,356 --> 00:22:33,676 Speaker 2: paying really close attention to how I was treating the 383 00:22:33,836 --> 00:22:37,716 Speaker 2: cello and then later realizing how I was treating myself 384 00:22:38,236 --> 00:22:39,156 Speaker 2: as I practiced. 385 00:22:39,836 --> 00:22:41,276 Speaker 1: And this led you at the time to make a 386 00:22:41,316 --> 00:22:43,476 Speaker 1: really tough decision. What was that? 387 00:22:43,916 --> 00:22:48,356 Speaker 2: Well, after that concert, I put the cello away. I 388 00:22:48,476 --> 00:22:51,836 Speaker 2: just gave up. I thought this is too hard, and 389 00:22:52,396 --> 00:22:54,196 Speaker 2: I put it in the case. There was nothing on 390 00:22:54,236 --> 00:22:57,996 Speaker 2: the calendar, so I wasn't really in danger of letting 391 00:22:58,036 --> 00:23:01,316 Speaker 2: anyone else down. Basically, it was a choice do I 392 00:23:01,596 --> 00:23:04,636 Speaker 2: wash the dishes today or do I try to practice 393 00:23:04,636 --> 00:23:07,676 Speaker 2: for a few minutes. I was pushing myself so hard 394 00:23:07,836 --> 00:23:12,396 Speaker 2: and getting humble by my body for pushing it. I 395 00:23:12,516 --> 00:23:15,436 Speaker 2: was just dragged down so far that I didn't think 396 00:23:15,516 --> 00:23:17,396 Speaker 2: that there was anything on the other side of all 397 00:23:17,396 --> 00:23:19,156 Speaker 2: of this work that was going to make it worth it. 398 00:23:19,276 --> 00:23:21,036 Speaker 1: And what was that like? I mean, my sense is 399 00:23:21,076 --> 00:23:23,196 Speaker 1: like a lot of people, you know put their instruments away, 400 00:23:23,236 --> 00:23:24,916 Speaker 1: But this seems like it was the first time your 401 00:23:24,956 --> 00:23:27,676 Speaker 1: cello was away for more than like a few hours 402 00:23:27,716 --> 00:23:28,396 Speaker 1: in your life. 403 00:23:28,556 --> 00:23:31,756 Speaker 2: Yes, I don't actually remember what the longest amount of 404 00:23:31,796 --> 00:23:34,716 Speaker 2: time I had ever gone without practicing was before that, 405 00:23:34,956 --> 00:23:40,196 Speaker 2: but suffice it to say, in the past, if I had, 406 00:23:40,356 --> 00:23:44,796 Speaker 2: let's say, a flight, I would practice in the airport, 407 00:23:45,076 --> 00:23:48,756 Speaker 2: or I would sit with the cello in a hotel 408 00:23:48,876 --> 00:23:52,916 Speaker 2: room after it's too late to practice and I would 409 00:23:52,996 --> 00:23:55,756 Speaker 2: move my left hand to practice, and I would kind 410 00:23:55,756 --> 00:23:59,196 Speaker 2: of fake the right hand so that I could still 411 00:23:59,236 --> 00:24:05,836 Speaker 2: be practicing. I was obsessed, and for me to intentionally 412 00:24:05,876 --> 00:24:09,956 Speaker 2: say I'm not going to practice even for one day 413 00:24:10,636 --> 00:24:14,236 Speaker 2: was such a wild radical concept. But to put the 414 00:24:14,316 --> 00:24:16,356 Speaker 2: cello in its case and say, I don't know when 415 00:24:16,356 --> 00:24:18,836 Speaker 2: I'm gonna pick this back up again, I didn't think 416 00:24:18,836 --> 00:24:19,916 Speaker 2: that would ever happen to me. 417 00:24:20,356 --> 00:24:21,996 Speaker 1: I mean, it strikes me that this wasn't even just 418 00:24:21,996 --> 00:24:23,836 Speaker 1: like an instrument. It was almost like your friend. 419 00:24:24,196 --> 00:24:27,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I played since I was three. It's 420 00:24:27,516 --> 00:24:32,396 Speaker 2: human size. It's the little things like the cello has 421 00:24:32,436 --> 00:24:36,356 Speaker 2: to fly in a seat on the airplane, so Cello 422 00:24:36,516 --> 00:24:39,596 Speaker 2: Roman has been traveling next to me taking the window 423 00:24:39,636 --> 00:24:42,996 Speaker 2: seat because you know, you can't climb over in an emergency, 424 00:24:43,036 --> 00:24:46,676 Speaker 2: so I for years. You can make all the jokes 425 00:24:46,716 --> 00:24:50,556 Speaker 2: and everything, but it's also real, like that's a real relationship. 426 00:24:50,596 --> 00:24:54,956 Speaker 2: The vibrations coming from the cello moving through my body 427 00:24:55,076 --> 00:24:59,196 Speaker 2: is something that is second nature. My body has grown 428 00:24:59,516 --> 00:25:02,916 Speaker 2: around the cello. My right shoulder is shorter than my 429 00:25:02,996 --> 00:25:07,876 Speaker 2: left shoulder. My left fingers are substantially longer than my 430 00:25:07,996 --> 00:25:10,396 Speaker 2: right fingers because from the age of three, they were 431 00:25:10,476 --> 00:25:13,876 Speaker 2: stretching and moving in ways that my right hand was not. 432 00:25:14,156 --> 00:25:18,396 Speaker 2: There's all of this stuff that we grew up together. 433 00:25:18,676 --> 00:25:21,236 Speaker 1: And now it was in a box, and now I 434 00:25:21,276 --> 00:25:25,236 Speaker 1: was in a box. I find it so heartbreaking that Joshua, 435 00:25:25,476 --> 00:25:28,156 Speaker 1: who was once described as the Jimi Hendrix of the cello, 436 00:25:28,756 --> 00:25:31,116 Speaker 1: was so sick that he could no longer even hold 437 00:25:31,156 --> 00:25:34,436 Speaker 1: his instrument. But of course the story doesn't end there. 438 00:25:34,916 --> 00:25:45,196 Speaker 1: We'll hear more After this quick break. Long COVID was 439 00:25:45,236 --> 00:25:48,436 Speaker 1: wrecking havoc on the career of concert cellis Joshua Roman. 440 00:25:48,876 --> 00:25:51,116 Speaker 1: Since the age of three, the instrument he loved so 441 00:25:51,276 --> 00:25:54,236 Speaker 1: much had been a constant presence in his life. But 442 00:25:54,396 --> 00:25:58,556 Speaker 1: months of overwhelming fatigue forced Joshua to put his cello down, 443 00:25:59,156 --> 00:26:01,156 Speaker 1: unsure if he would ever play it again. 444 00:26:01,436 --> 00:26:04,316 Speaker 2: The cello was in its case for almost three months. 445 00:26:04,596 --> 00:26:08,956 Speaker 2: This was early April twenty twenty one, and I didn't 446 00:26:09,116 --> 00:26:12,876 Speaker 2: I should again until right before Summer Solstice in June. 447 00:26:13,076 --> 00:26:16,396 Speaker 2: And I remember that because the reason I did was 448 00:26:16,436 --> 00:26:18,996 Speaker 2: that someone had asked me to play for their summer 449 00:26:19,036 --> 00:26:23,436 Speaker 2: Solstice party, and I said yes, kind of like sure, 450 00:26:23,876 --> 00:26:27,236 Speaker 2: I'll probably cancel later, but I'll say yes. Because I 451 00:26:27,316 --> 00:26:32,036 Speaker 2: feel guilty, and then I just forgot to cancel, and 452 00:26:32,396 --> 00:26:35,876 Speaker 2: a couple of days before the party there I was like, uh, oh, 453 00:26:35,916 --> 00:26:38,916 Speaker 2: this is happening, so I should probably get the cello 454 00:26:38,996 --> 00:26:42,076 Speaker 2: out and let's figure out if I still know how 455 00:26:42,076 --> 00:26:44,396 Speaker 2: to do this. And you know, this is probably something 456 00:26:44,436 --> 00:26:46,996 Speaker 2: I should work with my therapist about not holding on too. 457 00:26:47,036 --> 00:26:49,996 Speaker 2: But this image that sticks with me of wiping the 458 00:26:50,116 --> 00:26:55,036 Speaker 2: dust off the cello case is just wild to me 459 00:26:55,716 --> 00:26:58,556 Speaker 2: that it sat. I didn't even move it. It just 460 00:26:58,716 --> 00:27:03,476 Speaker 2: collected dust for almost three months. And then I started 461 00:27:03,476 --> 00:27:07,636 Speaker 2: to play, and I started with the famous prelude by 462 00:27:08,156 --> 00:27:09,516 Speaker 2: Bach Do. 463 00:27:09,556 --> 00:27:11,716 Speaker 1: Doooty doo Do Do Do Do Do Do Do do 464 00:27:11,716 --> 00:27:12,196 Speaker 1: do you do? 465 00:27:13,276 --> 00:27:15,436 Speaker 2: You know, the one from the car commercials. But it's 466 00:27:15,436 --> 00:27:19,276 Speaker 2: the best, It's really the best. And you know, of 467 00:27:19,316 --> 00:27:23,436 Speaker 2: course I was feeling for my fingers, like this kind 468 00:27:23,436 --> 00:27:26,596 Speaker 2: of rusted over feel that you get when they're used 469 00:27:26,596 --> 00:27:28,916 Speaker 2: to doing something and then they don't for a long time. 470 00:27:29,356 --> 00:27:35,156 Speaker 2: But what immediately took over was the vibrations against my 471 00:27:35,356 --> 00:27:39,676 Speaker 2: chest moving through my body. And it was the most 472 00:27:40,236 --> 00:27:45,596 Speaker 2: moving moment that I'd had with the cello in so long. 473 00:27:46,236 --> 00:27:55,316 Speaker 2: This rush of emotions and realizations and energy. I was overwhelmed, 474 00:27:55,636 --> 00:28:00,796 Speaker 2: but also so suddenly motivated and inspired and like things 475 00:28:00,836 --> 00:28:02,476 Speaker 2: just clicked into place, and. 476 00:28:02,476 --> 00:28:04,276 Speaker 1: Kind of getting back to music has allowed you to 477 00:28:04,276 --> 00:28:06,636 Speaker 1: do lots of things that we talk about on this podcast. 478 00:28:06,836 --> 00:28:09,076 Speaker 1: It seems to have involved a lot of self compassion 479 00:28:09,276 --> 00:28:11,556 Speaker 1: and a lot of what we call radical acceptance. What 480 00:28:11,676 --> 00:28:13,316 Speaker 1: is that radical acceptance meant to you? 481 00:28:14,756 --> 00:28:18,396 Speaker 2: So? I think one of the biggest things is that 482 00:28:18,476 --> 00:28:21,476 Speaker 2: I don't play the cello unless I want to. So 483 00:28:22,036 --> 00:28:25,436 Speaker 2: there are days when I don't practice, and the me 484 00:28:25,716 --> 00:28:29,156 Speaker 2: of six years ago is like, what the heck are 485 00:28:29,236 --> 00:28:30,716 Speaker 2: you doing? I don't know if I can swear, so 486 00:28:30,756 --> 00:28:31,516 Speaker 2: I'm not going to. 487 00:28:31,636 --> 00:28:34,356 Speaker 1: You can swear, It's fine, what the hell are you doing, Joshua. 488 00:28:34,516 --> 00:28:40,036 Speaker 2: You're supposed to practice every day. But more than anything now, 489 00:28:40,196 --> 00:28:44,516 Speaker 2: I treasure the trust in the relationship. You know, the 490 00:28:44,596 --> 00:28:47,396 Speaker 2: cello is a proxy for a part of myself. I 491 00:28:47,436 --> 00:28:50,836 Speaker 2: know it's just an inanimate object. But there's something about 492 00:28:51,316 --> 00:28:54,516 Speaker 2: am I practicing because I feel like I'm supposed to, 493 00:28:55,156 --> 00:29:00,156 Speaker 2: or do I actually feel an internal impetus and desire 494 00:29:00,516 --> 00:29:05,196 Speaker 2: to make music? And sometimes that is a little bit Okay, Well, 495 00:29:05,236 --> 00:29:07,676 Speaker 2: I do have a concert tomorrow and I really want 496 00:29:07,676 --> 00:29:11,396 Speaker 2: to sound good, but it's not I'm supposed to get 497 00:29:11,436 --> 00:29:15,316 Speaker 2: better because that's how people prove something. No, I'm going 498 00:29:15,396 --> 00:29:17,316 Speaker 2: to play because I want to play it, because I 499 00:29:17,396 --> 00:29:20,236 Speaker 2: love exploring it. And when I pick up the cello, 500 00:29:20,916 --> 00:29:23,556 Speaker 2: I'm in a different state of mind. I'm ready, I'm 501 00:29:23,596 --> 00:29:25,676 Speaker 2: approaching it a different way. I'm never sitting at the 502 00:29:25,756 --> 00:29:28,836 Speaker 2: cello thinking, oh, I have to do this, even though 503 00:29:28,916 --> 00:29:32,156 Speaker 2: I loved it before a lot of times I'll admit 504 00:29:32,476 --> 00:29:35,676 Speaker 2: now it was guilt or it was some other thing. 505 00:29:35,876 --> 00:29:38,716 Speaker 2: And what I was training myself to do was to 506 00:29:38,836 --> 00:29:42,956 Speaker 2: ignore that part of myself and try to force the 507 00:29:42,956 --> 00:29:46,036 Speaker 2: cello to be a tool. And again, that's a proxy 508 00:29:46,076 --> 00:29:48,396 Speaker 2: for a part of myself. Force myself to be a 509 00:29:48,436 --> 00:29:52,556 Speaker 2: tool and service of something else. To deny my state 510 00:29:52,596 --> 00:29:55,836 Speaker 2: of being would have any effect on it. Sure, in 511 00:29:55,876 --> 00:29:58,316 Speaker 2: a moment of crisis, maybe you need to push past, 512 00:29:58,676 --> 00:30:02,276 Speaker 2: but especially when we're talking about scratching a wooden box 513 00:30:02,356 --> 00:30:05,596 Speaker 2: to bring people joy, like, what the hell, no, you 514 00:30:05,716 --> 00:30:07,516 Speaker 2: kind of like pay attention to how you feel. 515 00:30:07,716 --> 00:30:09,996 Speaker 1: I love this example so much because this whole season 516 00:30:10,076 --> 00:30:13,236 Speaker 1: is about coping strategies, which, when used in the way 517 00:30:13,276 --> 00:30:16,836 Speaker 1: you're talking about them, where it's compassionate and patient. These 518 00:30:16,836 --> 00:30:19,876 Speaker 1: things are great, But any good coping strategy, whether it's 519 00:30:19,916 --> 00:30:22,996 Speaker 1: meditation or kind of taking time to exercise or something, 520 00:30:23,156 --> 00:30:25,316 Speaker 1: if you're doing it in this forced way in the 521 00:30:25,476 --> 00:30:28,076 Speaker 1: like have do I should weigh winds up not having 522 00:30:28,076 --> 00:30:30,236 Speaker 1: the benefits that you might think. And it seems like 523 00:30:30,276 --> 00:30:32,276 Speaker 1: even with music you're able to find this like you 524 00:30:32,356 --> 00:30:34,636 Speaker 1: have to have a kind of compassionate relationship with this 525 00:30:34,676 --> 00:30:36,556 Speaker 1: coping strategy or it's like not going to work in 526 00:30:36,596 --> 00:30:37,196 Speaker 1: the way you think. 527 00:30:37,356 --> 00:30:40,196 Speaker 2: It's so fascinating. Right, what you're saying is to me, 528 00:30:40,236 --> 00:30:44,116 Speaker 2: it's reinforcing that idea that it's all about opening up 529 00:30:44,196 --> 00:30:46,756 Speaker 2: the lines of communication in a way, whether it's between 530 00:30:46,836 --> 00:30:50,156 Speaker 2: parts of yourself or other people, the understanding. First of all, 531 00:30:50,476 --> 00:30:54,836 Speaker 2: there's a relationship, and every relationship needs a certain amount 532 00:30:54,876 --> 00:30:59,196 Speaker 2: of trust, and that you just don't actually build the 533 00:30:59,316 --> 00:31:02,836 Speaker 2: trust that you need to feel good. If it's all 534 00:31:02,876 --> 00:31:09,116 Speaker 2: about checkboxes and improvement. Those things, yes, they're useful, they're 535 00:31:09,116 --> 00:31:12,756 Speaker 2: important tools, but if they're the basis of a relationship, 536 00:31:12,836 --> 00:31:16,196 Speaker 2: the relationship is not going to grow in actual trust. 537 00:31:16,236 --> 00:31:19,236 Speaker 2: It's just going to have a very fancy system of verification. 538 00:31:19,676 --> 00:31:21,756 Speaker 1: Another way, that you've been able to grow your trust 539 00:31:21,796 --> 00:31:24,116 Speaker 1: to this kind of awful, long COVID incident is to 540 00:31:24,156 --> 00:31:27,196 Speaker 1: really trust the importance of rest. Yes, and it seems 541 00:31:27,236 --> 00:31:28,836 Speaker 1: like you've also had a lot of acceptance for what 542 00:31:28,876 --> 00:31:31,516 Speaker 1: your body can really do. I know you even carry 543 00:31:31,756 --> 00:31:34,996 Speaker 1: something with you to remind yourself and other people about this. Right. 544 00:31:35,316 --> 00:31:38,516 Speaker 2: Yes, I have a card. I have many of them 545 00:31:38,556 --> 00:31:42,676 Speaker 2: printed up, and it's something that people can look at 546 00:31:42,756 --> 00:31:45,676 Speaker 2: if I have a what I call a crash, which 547 00:31:46,196 --> 00:31:49,596 Speaker 2: incapacitates me to various degrees. 548 00:31:49,236 --> 00:31:50,796 Speaker 1: And just so we understand what is that? What would 549 00:31:50,796 --> 00:31:52,556 Speaker 1: that look like in public if you had one. 550 00:31:52,916 --> 00:31:56,076 Speaker 2: I've really tried not to have them in public, but sometimes, 551 00:31:56,556 --> 00:31:59,996 Speaker 2: even walking home, I will have a crash and I 552 00:32:00,036 --> 00:32:04,796 Speaker 2: will suddenly look like someone who's just stumbling, barely able 553 00:32:04,916 --> 00:32:09,356 Speaker 2: to shuffle forward. My eyes will be closing. And that's 554 00:32:09,396 --> 00:32:11,916 Speaker 2: a minor crash if I can still keep walking and 555 00:32:12,076 --> 00:32:15,236 Speaker 2: I will push myself to get home. A full crash 556 00:32:15,436 --> 00:32:19,076 Speaker 2: is not being able to sit up, not being able 557 00:32:19,116 --> 00:32:23,036 Speaker 2: to open my eyes, not being able to speak, often 558 00:32:23,236 --> 00:32:28,956 Speaker 2: not even being able to think. It's uncomfortable because it's incapacitating, 559 00:32:28,996 --> 00:32:33,876 Speaker 2: but it's not physically painful. I kind of stop being there. 560 00:32:33,916 --> 00:32:36,436 Speaker 2: It's kind of crazy, and it's for someone who used 561 00:32:36,476 --> 00:32:40,676 Speaker 2: to fix everything by running faster, it's pretty crazy to 562 00:32:40,756 --> 00:32:45,676 Speaker 2: be faced with this phenomenon that I still deal with 563 00:32:46,196 --> 00:32:46,836 Speaker 2: pretty often. 564 00:32:47,396 --> 00:32:49,996 Speaker 1: And so how do you have acceptance for that? Just 565 00:32:50,036 --> 00:32:50,716 Speaker 1: seems so hard. 566 00:32:51,476 --> 00:32:54,316 Speaker 2: It's very difficult. And this is where I think the 567 00:32:54,316 --> 00:32:58,996 Speaker 2: beautiful irony of kind of getting the lessons that you 568 00:32:59,796 --> 00:33:02,796 Speaker 2: need rather than the lessons that you want from life. 569 00:33:03,596 --> 00:33:05,836 Speaker 2: I can't push my way through it. Pushing is what 570 00:33:05,956 --> 00:33:10,716 Speaker 2: causes crashes. So really paying attention to what precipitates a 571 00:33:10,796 --> 00:33:14,036 Speaker 2: crash and whether there's anything I can do either in 572 00:33:14,116 --> 00:33:17,436 Speaker 2: the moment to say, oh, this is about to happen. 573 00:33:17,916 --> 00:33:20,756 Speaker 2: So I have to stop. I have to leave this party, 574 00:33:20,796 --> 00:33:23,076 Speaker 2: I have to get out of this loud place. I 575 00:33:23,116 --> 00:33:25,596 Speaker 2: have to grab a cab, instead of thinking I can 576 00:33:25,676 --> 00:33:29,716 Speaker 2: walk all the way to this store today or backing 577 00:33:29,756 --> 00:33:32,436 Speaker 2: up a step. And this is where it's really been 578 00:33:32,956 --> 00:33:37,396 Speaker 2: life changing, is planning my day saying Okay, I know 579 00:33:37,516 --> 00:33:39,076 Speaker 2: this is going to take a lot of energy, and 580 00:33:39,076 --> 00:33:41,236 Speaker 2: that's going to take a lot of energy. So those 581 00:33:41,276 --> 00:33:44,756 Speaker 2: two things can't happen on the same day. Our conversation 582 00:33:44,956 --> 00:33:47,116 Speaker 2: is one of two things that I'm going to do 583 00:33:47,196 --> 00:33:52,036 Speaker 2: today that require a certain level of engagement and energy 584 00:33:52,116 --> 00:33:55,236 Speaker 2: over any kind of sustained period of time. The rest 585 00:33:55,276 --> 00:33:57,196 Speaker 2: of the day is going to be a mix of 586 00:33:57,476 --> 00:34:02,556 Speaker 2: resting and not taxing my brain too much. I've also 587 00:34:02,676 --> 00:34:05,196 Speaker 2: learned how to ask for help, how to delegate. I've 588 00:34:05,196 --> 00:34:08,236 Speaker 2: been building a team, I have a business, all these 589 00:34:08,276 --> 00:34:11,276 Speaker 2: sorts of things. When you start to prioritize and take 590 00:34:11,276 --> 00:34:14,116 Speaker 2: care of yourself and think about the people around you, 591 00:34:14,636 --> 00:34:18,356 Speaker 2: all of a sudden you start building structures that give 592 00:34:18,596 --> 00:34:21,996 Speaker 2: everyone things to do, and it's just it's much better. 593 00:34:22,516 --> 00:34:24,356 Speaker 1: I also understand that you've been able to kind of 594 00:34:24,356 --> 00:34:27,116 Speaker 1: come to terms with your long COVID through your music, 595 00:34:27,156 --> 00:34:29,716 Speaker 1: getting back to music as a coping mechanism, And so 596 00:34:29,716 --> 00:34:31,116 Speaker 1: how have you been able to do that and kind 597 00:34:31,116 --> 00:34:33,476 Speaker 1: of share your vulnerability with others in the same way 598 00:34:33,476 --> 00:34:34,316 Speaker 1: you've shared music. 599 00:34:34,916 --> 00:34:37,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for asking about that. It's kind of 600 00:34:37,916 --> 00:34:42,396 Speaker 2: interesting because I get the question a lot, like how 601 00:34:42,436 --> 00:34:46,756 Speaker 2: does music help you get better? And for me, it's 602 00:34:46,756 --> 00:34:50,396 Speaker 2: such a twisted answer because the act of listening to 603 00:34:50,476 --> 00:34:54,076 Speaker 2: music even is taxing. So if I sit down and 604 00:34:54,076 --> 00:34:56,476 Speaker 2: listen to a mall or symphony, that's a big thing 605 00:34:56,556 --> 00:34:58,836 Speaker 2: for the day, not going to also do the Saturday 606 00:34:58,836 --> 00:35:02,996 Speaker 2: crossword puzzle that kind of decision making, let alone playing 607 00:35:03,036 --> 00:35:08,676 Speaker 2: the cello. So I have really focused on doing the 608 00:35:08,716 --> 00:35:12,676 Speaker 2: things that mean the most to me, that allow me 609 00:35:12,996 --> 00:35:17,996 Speaker 2: to bring as much as possible to the table. And 610 00:35:18,076 --> 00:35:22,636 Speaker 2: my friend Dasha at Princeton University started a series called 611 00:35:22,676 --> 00:35:27,236 Speaker 2: Healing with Music, and she was seeing me struggle with 612 00:35:27,516 --> 00:35:30,116 Speaker 2: long COVID, and at the time, you know, we would 613 00:35:30,156 --> 00:35:33,556 Speaker 2: tell my manager would tell people to expect that I 614 00:35:33,636 --> 00:35:35,716 Speaker 2: was going to need to lay down more, that I 615 00:35:35,796 --> 00:35:37,276 Speaker 2: was going to have this, and that they should be 616 00:35:37,316 --> 00:35:41,516 Speaker 2: ready for that. But I wasn't going around making long 617 00:35:41,556 --> 00:35:44,196 Speaker 2: COVID a part of anything I was doing. I said, 618 00:35:44,236 --> 00:35:46,756 Speaker 2: I had it on social media couple. I wasn't trying 619 00:35:46,756 --> 00:35:48,156 Speaker 2: to hide it, but it was just kind of a 620 00:35:48,196 --> 00:35:50,316 Speaker 2: thing in the background, and I was trying to keep 621 00:35:50,356 --> 00:35:53,556 Speaker 2: it that way, not to have it interfere with my work. 622 00:35:53,916 --> 00:35:57,356 Speaker 2: And she asked if I would be okay building a 623 00:35:57,396 --> 00:36:01,436 Speaker 2: program around my experience with long COVID and playing the 624 00:36:01,516 --> 00:36:05,316 Speaker 2: music that had helped me heal. Her asking that question 625 00:36:05,356 --> 00:36:08,036 Speaker 2: gave me an opportunity to think about things in a 626 00:36:08,076 --> 00:36:11,516 Speaker 2: different way. And for the maybe the very first time 627 00:36:12,036 --> 00:36:16,756 Speaker 2: to think about music not in terms of one of 628 00:36:16,796 --> 00:36:19,516 Speaker 2: two ways. This is what people expect to hear on 629 00:36:19,596 --> 00:36:21,356 Speaker 2: stage from a cello, so I'm going to do that, 630 00:36:21,876 --> 00:36:24,916 Speaker 2: or two, this is something I think other people will 631 00:36:24,916 --> 00:36:27,276 Speaker 2: find interesting, and so I'm going to do that. But 632 00:36:27,996 --> 00:36:31,036 Speaker 2: what seems really meaningful to me, like why am I 633 00:36:31,116 --> 00:36:34,916 Speaker 2: doing this? Let's put that on stage. And it was 634 00:36:35,916 --> 00:36:39,596 Speaker 2: really successful. I felt really good about it. It fit 635 00:36:39,716 --> 00:36:42,516 Speaker 2: together in a way that I could stand behind. I 636 00:36:42,556 --> 00:36:46,436 Speaker 2: didn't feel like I was projecting a false sense of 637 00:36:46,596 --> 00:36:50,516 Speaker 2: intellectualism or something like. No, this was the music that 638 00:36:50,596 --> 00:36:53,316 Speaker 2: I loved and that was giving me a reason to 639 00:36:53,316 --> 00:36:55,996 Speaker 2: play the cello and the story of why that was, 640 00:36:56,436 --> 00:37:00,436 Speaker 2: and that story was long COVID and is long COVID. 641 00:37:00,556 --> 00:37:04,716 Speaker 2: And from that experience built a project that I call Immunity, 642 00:37:05,236 --> 00:37:10,036 Speaker 2: where now it's everything from playing for other people with 643 00:37:10,116 --> 00:37:14,116 Speaker 2: long COVID and long COVID clinics to advocacy on the 644 00:37:14,196 --> 00:37:19,836 Speaker 2: hill to these residencies, and it's opened so many doors 645 00:37:20,316 --> 00:37:24,116 Speaker 2: and given me such a sense of purpose to be 646 00:37:24,236 --> 00:37:30,996 Speaker 2: able to not question whether what I'm doing is using 647 00:37:31,036 --> 00:37:33,876 Speaker 2: my energy. Well, the answer is yes, this is what 648 00:37:33,956 --> 00:37:37,156 Speaker 2: it's for this is what my energy is for, and 649 00:37:37,196 --> 00:37:41,596 Speaker 2: how can I build a life and the kinds of 650 00:37:41,636 --> 00:37:45,996 Speaker 2: relationships and team in life and work in artistry that 651 00:37:46,156 --> 00:37:52,476 Speaker 2: allow that kind of impact and connection in those relationships 652 00:37:52,476 --> 00:37:55,716 Speaker 2: to flourish. 653 00:37:56,316 --> 00:37:58,876 Speaker 1: I'm so grateful that Joshua Roman was willing to share 654 00:37:58,876 --> 00:38:01,876 Speaker 1: his journey with us today. His story shows just how 655 00:38:01,916 --> 00:38:05,076 Speaker 1: amazing music is as a coping strategy. It's such a 656 00:38:05,116 --> 00:38:09,516 Speaker 1: quick path to joy and togetherness for musicians and listeners alike. 657 00:38:09,916 --> 00:38:12,436 Speaker 1: But there's a second component of Joshua's story that I 658 00:38:12,476 --> 00:38:17,356 Speaker 1: really appreciated. Traumatic experiences like getting long COVID do suck, 659 00:38:17,876 --> 00:38:21,196 Speaker 1: but they can also help us grow, often in unexpected ways. 660 00:38:21,836 --> 00:38:24,556 Speaker 1: It's really helpful to remember that adversity does have a 661 00:38:24,556 --> 00:38:27,676 Speaker 1: bright side. It can help us appreciate all the stuff 662 00:38:27,756 --> 00:38:31,996 Speaker 1: we took for granted. There's one final episode left in 663 00:38:32,036 --> 00:38:36,036 Speaker 1: this special season on creative coping strategies, and it's devoted 664 00:38:36,036 --> 00:38:38,596 Speaker 1: to a sport that I have recently become a massive 665 00:38:38,636 --> 00:38:42,676 Speaker 1: fan of. It's a game that's skillful, competitive, fast paced, 666 00:38:43,036 --> 00:38:48,476 Speaker 1: and fun. It's called cornhole. We have under eighteen players 667 00:38:48,516 --> 00:38:51,756 Speaker 1: competing in the pro field against adults. I've seen players 668 00:38:51,836 --> 00:38:54,396 Speaker 1: throw on crutches. I mean, we have players that have 669 00:38:54,476 --> 00:38:57,556 Speaker 1: no arms, that throw at their feet. Literally anybody can play, 670 00:38:57,596 --> 00:38:59,716 Speaker 1: So now all of a sudden you get to compete 671 00:38:59,756 --> 00:39:01,796 Speaker 1: and there's no limitations or boundaries to that. 672 00:39:02,236 --> 00:39:02,356 Speaker 2: Oh. 673 00:39:02,476 --> 00:39:05,116 Speaker 1: Yes, we'll be learning how we can cope better with 674 00:39:05,276 --> 00:39:09,436 Speaker 1: cornhole next time on the Happiness Lab with me Laurie 675 00:39:09,476 --> 00:39:09,996 Speaker 1: Santos