WEBVTT - ICSVE's Speckhard on Fighting ISIS Using Social Media (Audio) 0:00:01.320 --> 0:00:04.600 This is taking stock with Gatlin Hay and Pim Box 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:09.240 on Bloomberg Radio. The death toll in an attack on 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:13.280 a Bastille Day fireworks celebration in the southern French city 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:17.160 of Nice rose to eighty four today. More than two 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:20.680 hundred are injured, and the French government has identified the 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:23.640 assailant as a thirty one year old native of Tunisia. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:27.600 The government also extended a national state of emergency as 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.760 the country absorbs the shock of the third major terrorist 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:34.320 attack in nineteen months. Here to tell us more and 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:38.240 help us understand this is Dr Anne Speccard, Adjunct Associate 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:43.440 Professor of Psychiatry at Georgetown University School of Medicine, is 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.600 also the director of the International Center for the Study 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:50.519 of Violent Extremism and the author of the newly released 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:56.800 book Isis Defectors Inside Stories of the Terrorist Caliphate. Dr Speccard, 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.880 thanks very much for being with us. You're welcome to 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:02.640 um and what I oh, go ahead. I was just 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:05.560 gonna say, first give us your reaction and your thoughts 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:11.280 about the attack in Nice. My thoughts, Pim, are that 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:14.080 isis is winning on the internet, and we've got to 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:16.720 extend the battlefield a lot of people are talking about 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:20.600 military strikes. We are fighting in Syria and Iraq. We're 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:26.000 degrading Isis's ability to sell oil. We've degraded their taxable territory. 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:29.600 They're losing their territory. But over the last year I've 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:33.520 been interviewing with my partner am At Yala thirty eight 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:36.480 Isister Factors, and they tell us that if they lose 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:38.840 their territory, they're just going to go underground and be 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.720 a guerrilla urban warfare group. So they're not going away, 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:48.800 and they have such internet and video capabilities. Last night, 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:53.440 Ahmat found a video on telegram. Well actually I found 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.639 it before, but he showed it to me yesterday, and 0:01:56.760 --> 0:02:00.480 it's just chilling. When you look at their cape of abilities, 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:06.240 it looks like Madison Avenue advertising and Hollywood Blockbuster, and 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:09.800 it's inspiring exactly the kind of attacks that just took 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:13.200 place in these In fact, in France they showed uh 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:18.560 being loaded with we'll look to me like liquid flammable bombs. 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:22.200 They showed New York and showed someone strapping on a 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:25.799 suicide vest and going out in the crowd. So these 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:30.120 were real life depictions of parist attacks in the West, 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:34.760 trying to inspire cadres from all over the world to attack, 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:39.400 and ISIS spokesman called for attacks exactly like this before 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:44.800 Ramadan had said during Ramadan and that was the last month, UH, 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.680 that Muslims all over the world should attack the West, 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:51.400 and he called for the same in two thousand and fourteen. 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:54.880 And ISIS is on steroids on the internet, and we 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.480 need to fight them. And that's what we're trying to 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:01.200 do in our little think tank. We UM. We're taking 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:04.720 the ISIS defector interviews and their videos, were cutting them 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:09.000 down to short videos clips and putting them out to 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:11.680 fight with our propaganda to say, here's the truth. Here's 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.399 someone who's been on the inside that says, this organization 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:18.640 is not Islamic. Don't come here, don't join. You'll have 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:21.360 to rape and steal and do things that are against 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:23.600 Islam if you do, and you won't get out. If 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:27.480 you try to get out, they'll kill you. And but 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:29.880 we we need to fight back. That's all I can say. 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:35.000 And within within hours ISIS had put up propaganda posters 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:39.400 that again we're done so well. Um. They were photoshopped 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:43.320 and they showed London with ISIS cadres UH blooming over 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:47.000 the skyline and the caption was we are here for 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:51.320 New York. They had um followers of the Cross will 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:54.680 hunt you down in the American streets, and it just 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:57.320 went on and on with what they were putting out. 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:02.720 So any disturbed individual that's watching this can jump on 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:05.200 the bandwagon and say, oh, I can use my car, 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:08.840 my truck as a as a weapon. And as we 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:12.000 know in the US, weapons aren't hard to get anyway, 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:16.440 Dr Speccard. Just as a note, no organized group has 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.279 yet claimed responsibility for the attack, although, as you say, 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:23.440 online accounts associated with the Islamic State and al Qaeda 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:29.400 have cheered this act of violence and terror. Can you 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:32.440 tell us a little bit about how the resources are 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:37.080 made available for these organizations to build these kinds of 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:40.600 videos promote them. Uh, they must have a cadre of 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:44.680 technology experts to do so, you know, Kim, I've been 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:47.560 watching this for a long time, and especially over the 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:50.520 last year as we started our project, because I've interviewed 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:53.359 almost five terrorists now and in the last year we 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.320 went after ISIS and I didn't think that we would 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:59.200 get to interview them, and it's the first time of videotaped. 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.600 So here we have two to three hour in depth 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.880 interviews with ISIS defectors, and we have to cut them 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:08.279 down to shark video clips. So we're working with Arabic 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:13.480 video editors that are subtitling and producing our product, which 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:15.560 you can see on YouTube under our I C s 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:21.800 C M CEO. But what I learned was that Syria. 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:24.839 I thought all this capability was coming from the West, 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:28.000 that it's not true. Syria was well known as being 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:31.560 the top video editors in the area. So they've just 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:34.840 collopted what was already there. This is taking stock. I'm 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:37.919 pim Fox. My co host Kathleen Hayes is on vacation. 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:42.440 Joining us now is Dr Ann Speckhard, Adjunct Associate Professor 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:46.479 of psychiatry at Georgetown University School of Medicine, also the 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:51.719 director of the International Center for the Study of Violent Extremism, 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:54.080 and Dr Speckhard is also the author of the newly 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:59.919 released book entitled ISIS Defectors Inside Stories of the Terrorist Caliphate. 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:04.080 We've just been listening to President Obama offering his comments 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:07.200 at the White House. He was speaking at a reception 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:09.680 for the Diplomatic Corps in the East Room of the 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:13.760 White House, and he mentioned specifically the ambassador to the 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:18.280 United States from France, Ambassador are No, pledging the solidarity 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:21.279 of the United States with France and with the French people. 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:26.760 He spoke in general terms, also about foreign policy and 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:31.839 the battle against extremism. Dr Speccard in hearing some of 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:37.000 the president's comments, were you surprised that it almost became 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:41.480 a foreign policy statement as as much as a spirit 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:46.560 of condolence? Yeah, he did. Uh. You spend a little 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:49.280 time praising what he'd done over the last seven and 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:52.440 a half years, which to me, I'm not sure it 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:56.560 belongs in that statement, but his statement of condolences. Uh, 0:06:56.600 --> 0:07:00.400 I sure appreciate. I've been too many of the Steel days. Uh. 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:03.960 My husband is a retired US ambassador, so we've been 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:08.039 too many of those kind of functions. And you know, 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:10.400 I think that's the message that has to get across, 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:14.360 that we're extending our hand, we're sorrowful, and we do 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.320 need to stand united in all of our countries because 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:20.600 ISIS wants to divide us and they want us to 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:25.600 hate our Muslim population. And the truth is, nine percent 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:30.760 of Muslims thinks that the ideology of ISIS is not Islam, 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:33.520 and that it's an anathma. They don't accept it, they 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:38.560 don't support it, they don't want it. But if groups 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:42.760 like this managed to divide our societies, then more troubled 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:47.840 and disturbed people will start logging into their internet seduction 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:53.200 and possibly fall for it. The president specifically mentioned previous 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:59.320 attacks in countries such as Turkey, Iraqa, Bangladesh, and Saudi Arabia, 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:05.040 and also noting that those attacks killed many Muslims as well. 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:10.600 In your analysis, and you're speaking with the terrorists, what 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:14.200 have you found, how do they feel about the taking 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:19.000 of lives of fellow Muslims. Well. In their rhetoric, they 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:22.320 will say things like in their Sharia teachers and Isis 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:25.360 will tell them ani Muslim that's killed. If he was 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:28.680 righteous and good Muslim, he goes immediately to paradise as 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:32.319 martyr and wins other rewards of martyrdom. If he was not, 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:35.920 then basically to hell with him. And they don't care. 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:40.320 But individually, when we've talked to the factors, they're very 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:44.520 disturbed by their fellow Muslims being killed. Um, we had 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:47.120 many people tell us about the massacre of one of 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:50.040 the tribes. It was a Sunni tribe in Syria, Al 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:55.320 Shitad and Isis went after them and killed thousands of them, 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:59.520 killed the women and children. The van and UH sunny 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:03.000 Isis cadres told us that they had nightmares afterwards. They 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:05.880 couldn't believe that they participated in that. They felt it 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:10.439 was long. We also had a guard of sex slaves, 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.040 and we have his YouTube video up on our site 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:17.440 UH speaking about guarding four hundred and seventy five women 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:21.240 that were being held for systematic rape basically and that 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:24.199 there were Sunni women among these and it was so 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:28.640 shocking to them. Um to take the Uzds. It was 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:32.920 also shocking and horrible because but Isis caused the devil worshippers, 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:36.000 so you can somehow other them. But when it was 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:41.080 Sunni women, they were like, what's going on? So when 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:45.360 they saw the realities of how Isis does things, they're disturbed. 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:47.719 And we heard this often. I just readicated someone al 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:51.400 Shabab cadres saying the same thing. You know, how can 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:54.400 they kill how can they kill Muslims? How can't be 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:59.240 part of this group? The president also spoken economic and 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:07.040 political terms, speaking about economic progress, offering health benefits, education, equality, 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:12.160 Are those uh? Are those points likely to resonate with 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.800 with potential terrorists or with people that the president is 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.560 seeking to uh to speak to. Well, I don't know 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:21.640 if France what really wants to hear that right now, 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:23.760 but I'll tell you the truth. I lived in Belgium 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:27.560 for seven years and amid hundreds of interviews with North 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:31.200 Africans living in Belgium and in France, and many of 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.560 them told me about how different franchised they were and 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:37.480 how they they didn't feel that they could become a 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:40.520 part of normal society. That they went for job interviews 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:44.520 and they were turned away. Um, they couldn't rent apartments 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:48.480 and except in their ghetto wised areas. So even if 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:52.400 they tried to integrate themselves into society, uh, they found 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:56.720 it was impossible. And I particularly remember a French North 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:02.400 African telling me liberty egalle tay and fraternity is not 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:06.320 for us. And if they are feeling that way and 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:10.640 that it's based in any reality, uh, that's troublesome because 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:13.640 that's exactly what isis will come and try to take 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:16.760 advantage of all of these terrorist groups, try to take 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:21.680 advantage of whatever local politics are not serving certain groups 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.600 of people, and uh, you know, and here we see 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:27.520 a North African was the attacker in Crunch, which is 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:31.880 very sad. The President also spoke about how we should 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:35.720 not give into fear or be divided by religion and 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:38.640 should not do the bidding of the of the terrorists. 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:42.560 Do you think that that we still are having that 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:45.360 debate or are are we in a sense playing into 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:48.920 the terrorist hands? Well? I hate to say it, but 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:52.640 I think Donald Trump when he made his statements about 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:56.040 we shouldn't let Muslims into our country, and you raised 0:11:56.080 --> 0:12:00.360 a lot of questions about the loyalty of Muslims, that 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:05.839 again plays into the tarists hands because ordinary Muslims that 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:08.560 don't believe that is societeology. I mean, you can text 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:11.120 scriptures out of any religion or twist them and say 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:13.559 this is the true religion and that's what isis and 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:19.920 al Qaeda do So when someone that's not prominent says 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:23.520 we can't trust ordinary Muslims, we're playing into their hands 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.400 because we're alienating the part of our society which we 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:29.440 really should be saying. We know those groups are trying 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:32.440 to seduce your children. How can we help you? Thank 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:35.800 you very much. Dr Ann Speckhard is ADGECT Associate professor 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:39.920 of psychiatry at Georgetown University School of Medicine, director of 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:42.559 the International Center for the Study of Violent Extremism, and 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:46.079 the author of ISIS Defectors. This is Bloomberg.