1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: This is taking stock with Gatlin Hay and Pim Box 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio. The death toll in an attack on 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: a Bastille Day fireworks celebration in the southern French city 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: of Nice rose to eighty four today. More than two 5 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: hundred are injured, and the French government has identified the 6 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: assailant as a thirty one year old native of Tunisia. 7 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: The government also extended a national state of emergency as 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: the country absorbs the shock of the third major terrorist 9 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: attack in nineteen months. Here to tell us more and 10 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: help us understand this is Dr Anne Speccard, Adjunct Associate 11 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: Professor of Psychiatry at Georgetown University School of Medicine, is 12 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: also the director of the International Center for the Study 13 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: of Violent Extremism and the author of the newly released 14 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: book Isis Defectors Inside Stories of the Terrorist Caliphate. Dr Speccard, 15 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: thanks very much for being with us. You're welcome to 16 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: um and what I oh, go ahead. I was just 17 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: gonna say, first give us your reaction and your thoughts 18 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: about the attack in Nice. My thoughts, Pim, are that 19 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: isis is winning on the internet, and we've got to 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: extend the battlefield a lot of people are talking about 21 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: military strikes. We are fighting in Syria and Iraq. We're 22 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: degrading Isis's ability to sell oil. We've degraded their taxable territory. 23 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: They're losing their territory. But over the last year I've 24 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: been interviewing with my partner am At Yala thirty eight 25 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: Isister Factors, and they tell us that if they lose 26 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: their territory, they're just going to go underground and be 27 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: a guerrilla urban warfare group. So they're not going away, 28 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: and they have such internet and video capabilities. Last night, 29 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: Ahmat found a video on telegram. Well actually I found 30 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,639 Speaker 1: it before, but he showed it to me yesterday, and 31 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: it's just chilling. When you look at their cape of abilities, 32 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: it looks like Madison Avenue advertising and Hollywood Blockbuster, and 33 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: it's inspiring exactly the kind of attacks that just took 34 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: place in these In fact, in France they showed uh 35 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: being loaded with we'll look to me like liquid flammable bombs. 36 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: They showed New York and showed someone strapping on a 37 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: suicide vest and going out in the crowd. So these 38 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: were real life depictions of parist attacks in the West, 39 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: trying to inspire cadres from all over the world to attack, 40 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: and ISIS spokesman called for attacks exactly like this before 41 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: Ramadan had said during Ramadan and that was the last month, UH, 42 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: that Muslims all over the world should attack the West, 43 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: and he called for the same in two thousand and fourteen. 44 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: And ISIS is on steroids on the internet, and we 45 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: need to fight them. And that's what we're trying to 46 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: do in our little think tank. We UM. We're taking 47 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: the ISIS defector interviews and their videos, were cutting them 48 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: down to short videos clips and putting them out to 49 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: fight with our propaganda to say, here's the truth. Here's 50 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,399 Speaker 1: someone who's been on the inside that says, this organization 51 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: is not Islamic. Don't come here, don't join. You'll have 52 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 1: to rape and steal and do things that are against 53 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: Islam if you do, and you won't get out. If 54 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: you try to get out, they'll kill you. And but 55 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: we we need to fight back. That's all I can say. 56 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: And within within hours ISIS had put up propaganda posters 57 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: that again we're done so well. Um. They were photoshopped 58 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: and they showed London with ISIS cadres UH blooming over 59 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: the skyline and the caption was we are here for 60 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: New York. They had um followers of the Cross will 61 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: hunt you down in the American streets, and it just 62 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: went on and on with what they were putting out. 63 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: So any disturbed individual that's watching this can jump on 64 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: the bandwagon and say, oh, I can use my car, 65 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: my truck as a as a weapon. And as we 66 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: know in the US, weapons aren't hard to get anyway, 67 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: Dr Speccard. Just as a note, no organized group has 68 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: yet claimed responsibility for the attack, although, as you say, 69 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: online accounts associated with the Islamic State and al Qaeda 70 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: have cheered this act of violence and terror. Can you 71 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about how the resources are 72 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: made available for these organizations to build these kinds of 73 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: videos promote them. Uh, they must have a cadre of 74 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: technology experts to do so, you know, Kim, I've been 75 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: watching this for a long time, and especially over the 76 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: last year as we started our project, because I've interviewed 77 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 1: almost five terrorists now and in the last year we 78 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: went after ISIS and I didn't think that we would 79 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: get to interview them, and it's the first time of videotaped. 80 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 1: So here we have two to three hour in depth 81 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: interviews with ISIS defectors, and we have to cut them 82 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: down to shark video clips. So we're working with Arabic 83 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: video editors that are subtitling and producing our product, which 84 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: you can see on YouTube under our I C s 85 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: C M CEO. But what I learned was that Syria. 86 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: I thought all this capability was coming from the West, 87 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: that it's not true. Syria was well known as being 88 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: the top video editors in the area. So they've just 89 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: collopted what was already there. This is taking stock. I'm 90 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 1: pim Fox. My co host Kathleen Hayes is on vacation. 91 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: Joining us now is Dr Ann Speckhard, Adjunct Associate Professor 92 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: of psychiatry at Georgetown University School of Medicine, also the 93 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: director of the International Center for the Study of Violent Extremism, 94 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: and Dr Speckhard is also the author of the newly 95 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 1: released book entitled ISIS Defectors Inside Stories of the Terrorist Caliphate. 96 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: We've just been listening to President Obama offering his comments 97 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: at the White House. He was speaking at a reception 98 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: for the Diplomatic Corps in the East Room of the 99 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: White House, and he mentioned specifically the ambassador to the 100 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 1: United States from France, Ambassador are No, pledging the solidarity 101 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: of the United States with France and with the French people. 102 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: He spoke in general terms, also about foreign policy and 103 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: the battle against extremism. Dr Speccard in hearing some of 104 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: the president's comments, were you surprised that it almost became 105 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: a foreign policy statement as as much as a spirit 106 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: of condolence? Yeah, he did. Uh. You spend a little 107 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: time praising what he'd done over the last seven and 108 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: a half years, which to me, I'm not sure it 109 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: belongs in that statement, but his statement of condolences. Uh, 110 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: I sure appreciate. I've been too many of the Steel days. Uh. 111 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: My husband is a retired US ambassador, so we've been 112 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: too many of those kind of functions. And you know, 113 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: I think that's the message that has to get across, 114 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: that we're extending our hand, we're sorrowful, and we do 115 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: need to stand united in all of our countries because 116 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: ISIS wants to divide us and they want us to 117 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: hate our Muslim population. And the truth is, nine percent 118 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: of Muslims thinks that the ideology of ISIS is not Islam, 119 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: and that it's an anathma. They don't accept it, they 120 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: don't support it, they don't want it. But if groups 121 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: like this managed to divide our societies, then more troubled 122 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: and disturbed people will start logging into their internet seduction 123 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: and possibly fall for it. The president specifically mentioned previous 124 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: attacks in countries such as Turkey, Iraqa, Bangladesh, and Saudi Arabia, 125 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: and also noting that those attacks killed many Muslims as well. 126 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: In your analysis, and you're speaking with the terrorists, what 127 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: have you found, how do they feel about the taking 128 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: of lives of fellow Muslims. Well. In their rhetoric, they 129 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: will say things like in their Sharia teachers and Isis 130 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: will tell them ani Muslim that's killed. If he was 131 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: righteous and good Muslim, he goes immediately to paradise as 132 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 1: martyr and wins other rewards of martyrdom. If he was not, 133 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: then basically to hell with him. And they don't care. 134 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: But individually, when we've talked to the factors, they're very 135 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: disturbed by their fellow Muslims being killed. Um, we had 136 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: many people tell us about the massacre of one of 137 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: the tribes. It was a Sunni tribe in Syria, Al 138 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: Shitad and Isis went after them and killed thousands of them, 139 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: killed the women and children. The van and UH sunny 140 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: Isis cadres told us that they had nightmares afterwards. They 141 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: couldn't believe that they participated in that. They felt it 142 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: was long. We also had a guard of sex slaves, 143 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: and we have his YouTube video up on our site 144 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: UH speaking about guarding four hundred and seventy five women 145 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: that were being held for systematic rape basically and that 146 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 1: there were Sunni women among these and it was so 147 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: shocking to them. Um to take the Uzds. It was 148 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: also shocking and horrible because but Isis caused the devil worshippers, 149 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: so you can somehow other them. But when it was 150 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: Sunni women, they were like, what's going on? So when 151 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: they saw the realities of how Isis does things, they're disturbed. 152 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,719 Speaker 1: And we heard this often. I just readicated someone al 153 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: Shabab cadres saying the same thing. You know, how can 154 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: they kill how can they kill Muslims? How can't be 155 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: part of this group? The president also spoken economic and 156 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: political terms, speaking about economic progress, offering health benefits, education, equality, 157 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: Are those uh? Are those points likely to resonate with 158 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: with potential terrorists or with people that the president is 159 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: seeking to uh to speak to. Well, I don't know 160 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: if France what really wants to hear that right now, 161 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: but I'll tell you the truth. I lived in Belgium 162 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: for seven years and amid hundreds of interviews with North 163 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: Africans living in Belgium and in France, and many of 164 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: them told me about how different franchised they were and 165 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: how they they didn't feel that they could become a 166 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: part of normal society. That they went for job interviews 167 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: and they were turned away. Um, they couldn't rent apartments 168 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: and except in their ghetto wised areas. So even if 169 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: they tried to integrate themselves into society, uh, they found 170 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: it was impossible. And I particularly remember a French North 171 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: African telling me liberty egalle tay and fraternity is not 172 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: for us. And if they are feeling that way and 173 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: that it's based in any reality, uh, that's troublesome because 174 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: that's exactly what isis will come and try to take 175 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: advantage of all of these terrorist groups, try to take 176 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: advantage of whatever local politics are not serving certain groups 177 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: of people, and uh, you know, and here we see 178 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: a North African was the attacker in Crunch, which is 179 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: very sad. The President also spoke about how we should 180 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: not give into fear or be divided by religion and 181 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: should not do the bidding of the of the terrorists. 182 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: Do you think that that we still are having that 183 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: debate or are are we in a sense playing into 184 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: the terrorist hands? Well? I hate to say it, but 185 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: I think Donald Trump when he made his statements about 186 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: we shouldn't let Muslims into our country, and you raised 187 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: a lot of questions about the loyalty of Muslims, that 188 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 1: again plays into the tarists hands because ordinary Muslims that 189 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: don't believe that is societeology. I mean, you can text 190 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: scriptures out of any religion or twist them and say 191 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,559 Speaker 1: this is the true religion and that's what isis and 192 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: al Qaeda do So when someone that's not prominent says 193 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: we can't trust ordinary Muslims, we're playing into their hands 194 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: because we're alienating the part of our society which we 195 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: really should be saying. We know those groups are trying 196 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: to seduce your children. How can we help you? Thank 197 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: you very much. Dr Ann Speckhard is ADGECT Associate professor 198 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: of psychiatry at Georgetown University School of Medicine, director of 199 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: the International Center for the Study of Violent Extremism, and 200 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,079 Speaker 1: the author of ISIS Defectors. This is Bloomberg.