1 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: What's up. It's Way Up with Angela Yee. I'm Angela 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Yee and we have a really special guest and I 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: know you're going to love this conversation today. Rasma Medicam 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: is here first time on Way Up. 5 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 2: Yes, my first time, my first time. 6 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: You know. But I met you on the Breakfast Club previously, 7 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: and you also did your book. We did a book club, 8 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: yes right, event at my coffee shop back Cup, which 9 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: I appreciate. 10 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 3: And I'm still drinking the coffee. 11 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: Oh I like to hear that. And I remember that 12 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: that event. People, we just had so many questions. You know, 13 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: people were crying at the event. So I do appreciate 14 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: you for that. But let's talk about who Resma Menicem is. 15 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: Just for people who are listening. What would you say 16 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: when somebody was like, oh, what do you do? 17 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 3: Primarily I am a author right now. I am a 18 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 3: clinical of being a clinical social worker specializing in racialized 19 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 3: trauma and violence. I've been doing this work for thirty 20 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 3: five years. Yes you have, yeah, yeah, and so a 21 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 3: lot did a lot of stuff with trauma, a lot 22 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 3: of stuff with couples. 23 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: Now, restnad when you talk about racialized trauma and You've 24 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: been doing this work for thirty five years. What's different 25 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: now than it was thirty five years ago because I 26 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: feel like we have a lot more conversations. I feel 27 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: like we went from this being something taboo to kind 28 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: of talk about, to it being widely talked about, to 29 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: it again being pushed back on and kind of like, Okay, 30 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: get over it. 31 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, we don't have we really don't have the container 32 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 3: created that allows us to really talk about race and 33 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 3: the ways that it needs to be talked about. So 34 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 3: what happens is that it becomes the flavor of the moment, 35 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 3: and then people talk about it, and then once they 36 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 3: can't tolerate it anymore, they say, we just need to 37 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 3: get We don't need to talk about trauma and how 38 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 3: trauma shows up in couples, and how trauma shows up 39 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 3: between black folks, and how trauma shows up between people, 40 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 3: and how trauma shows up. 41 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: In the environment. 42 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, one of the things I've been 43 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 3: talking about lately, Sibling, is this idea that you know, 44 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 3: we still we're still on the tails of of COVID, 45 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 3: like like like people are walking around here acting like 46 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 3: it's it's normal to be as tired as we are. 47 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 2: Have you noticed have you noticed like that. 48 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 1: Man, people definitely have some long term COVID effects. 49 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 2: Exactly. 50 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: It took me a long time after I had it 51 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: to be able to breathe properly and to not be 52 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: out of breath, like walking down the black and going 53 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: up the stairs and do a simple things right. 54 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 3: And and as soon as they said, hey, y'all, y'all 55 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 3: can take your masks off, everybody's like, okay, it's good. 56 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 3: But what you're starting to notice is that, especially in 57 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 3: our community, we're starting to come face to face with 58 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 3: the with a lot of the kind of stress responses. Right, 59 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 3: So we're we're noticing that there's more a lot more 60 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 3: we're noticing a lot more depression. We're noticing a lot 61 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 3: more anxiety. We're noticing that we can't quite even if 62 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 3: we go on vacation, we still are tired on vacation. 63 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 3: And that's because what we're dealing with is not just momentary. 64 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 3: It's historical, and there's a charge to it. It is intergenerational, 65 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 3: it is persistently institutional, and then it's our own personal 66 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 3: stuff and that's the weight of it. That's why we 67 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 3: can't blow it off like we used to. That's why 68 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 3: the overriding is not doing what it used to do, 69 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 3: Like we used to just work ourselves in override and 70 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 3: get through it, and that's not covering anymore. And so 71 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 3: when I talk about racialized trauma, I'm always trying to 72 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 3: get us to understand that it is not about a 73 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 3: personal defect in us. It really is about what happens 74 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 3: and continues to happen to our people, and we have 75 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 3: to create things and communal ways of dealing with those pieces. 76 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 3: It's not just an individual. 77 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: Thing, you know. I want to ask you about something 78 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: that had went viral right to Ragi was talking about 79 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: how as black people we can run when we ath, 80 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: and she talked about how that is something that is 81 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: also racialized trauma, so to say, because we weren't allowed 82 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: to laugh, and a lot of people were like, what 83 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: is she talking about? But then there were some people 84 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: that were like, no, she's absolutely correct, So can you 85 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: break that down. 86 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 3: Absolutely so so sore. There is this this kind of 87 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 3: phrase that I use is that just the march of 88 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 3: time can decontextualize trauma. So what I mean by that 89 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 3: is that trauma decontextualized untended to over time, can in 90 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 3: a person can look like personality. Trauma untended to in 91 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 3: a family over time can look like family traits. Trauma 92 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 3: untended to in a people can. 93 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 2: Look like culture. 94 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 3: Right if you if something like if me and you, 95 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 3: if me and you are cool, when we're friends and 96 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 3: something happened, somebody walks through that door in her me badly, right, 97 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 3: and then next week you call and check up on me, 98 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 3: and I'm saying says I'm good, I'm good. And then 99 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 3: you see me the week after that and you and 100 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:14,119 Speaker 3: I'm acting strange. You would immediately contextualize. Let me call Maria, 101 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 3: let me call his wife and see because just last 102 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 3: week I saw that happen to him, so we got 103 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 3: to get Reslus some help. Right, that's contextualizing it. 104 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 2: Right. 105 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 3: What if you never saw it and I'm acting crazy though, 106 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 3: right right now it looks like my personality. What if 107 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 3: what if my reflexes like every time you say something, 108 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 3: I got more energy than this than I should have 109 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 3: in a particular thing. Right, you say one thing and 110 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 3: I'm hyped about it. Those are the things that over 111 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 3: time look like personality but are actually trauma responses. I'll 112 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 3: give you another one, and we and we we make 113 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 3: it part of culture. So I remember my mother on 114 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 3: Saturdays cleaning the house like incessantly. And if you didn't, 115 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 3: and if you didn't get up at seven o'clock in 116 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 3: the morning and help her, and if you're supposed to 117 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 3: wash the dishes and you left a spoon in the sink, 118 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 3: you're getting it right. What we don't realize is that 119 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:15,799 Speaker 3: many people, many many of our people, had become adults early. 120 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 3: We had to take on more responsibility early as children. 121 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 3: So now that the response to that is or this 122 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 3: is just how black people do, when it actually might 123 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 3: be a response to trauma, it might be a response 124 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 3: to the things that happened to us, and then we 125 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 3: got organized around it. Now it looks like, oh, that's 126 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 3: just who black people are, that's just. 127 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 2: What we do. 128 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 3: Here's another one. Many of us can tell who what 129 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 3: mood our parents is are in. Could we when we 130 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 3: were kids, We could tell what mood they were in 131 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 3: by their footsteps? 132 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: Let me mind my business today. 133 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 3: You see, that's right. And then what happens is that 134 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 3: we get organized around it, and then when we get older, 135 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 3: it looks like part of our personality or I can hear, 136 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 3: I know what you're thinking already, I know what. You're right, 137 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 3: and those are the types of things that over time, 138 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 3: as they become decontextualized, we just think it's just culture. 139 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 3: So Taraji was absolutely right, there are these things that 140 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 3: we have to begin to interrogate not from a place 141 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 3: of defectiveness, but from a place of healing and knowing, 142 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 3: so we can have more room to work with these pieces. 143 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 3: Not about context, that's exactly right. It's not about defect. 144 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 3: A lot of times when this stuff happens is we 145 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 3: put the defect inside of us instead of what happened 146 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 3: and continues to happen to us. 147 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: You know, resme, I've read two of your books, and 148 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: now I have to read Monsters in Love, which is 149 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: a book that you had put out previously almost ten 150 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: years ago, most years ago, and then now you've redone 151 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: it and we'll get to that in a second. But 152 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: now you also just based off of your grandmother's hands, 153 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: the stories from my grandmother's hands, you have a children's book, 154 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: all right, Now, what made you decide that it's time 155 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: to make that into a children's bo. 156 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 3: That's that's a good question. 157 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 2: So so. 158 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 3: Actually, a lot of black women is what. 159 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: Made me is that beauty. By the way, art in 160 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: here is beautiful and amazing, like when you go through 161 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: it and we get to learn some about the languages. 162 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 3: That's right, so so so so the thing about the art, 163 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 3: let me just talk about brother Leework Campbell. Brother Leework 164 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 3: Campbell is a very famous Black artist, and that brother 165 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 3: all of the all of the things in here are 166 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 3: not illustrations. These are all painting. 167 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: I feel like we need these hanging in our homes. 168 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: That's what I look at this like real, like this 169 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: in my house and pay a tent of money. 170 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 3: That's right. Yeah, he painted all those That's why it's 171 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 3: such that the the kind of texture of it is 172 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 3: so rich. But really a lot of black women kept 173 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 3: asking me when I was going to do something for kids, 174 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 3: because they'd like to have something to read to kids. 175 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 3: A lot of black women read my grandmother's hands, and 176 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 3: so whenever I would do talks around the world, people 177 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 3: would come and people would be like, mostly black women 178 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 3: would say is there something and I would reject it. 179 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 3: I would be like, well that my grandmother's hands are 180 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 3: so dense, I don't know how I do it. And 181 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 3: then I just started I just let it be for 182 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 3: a while, and then it started to come to me like, okay, 183 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 3: maybe I could just do lines of it. 184 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: And then it made so much sense when I was 185 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: reading through it, you know, for to be able to 186 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: sit there, because that also is a great way to 187 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: open up conversation. That's exactly right, you know, like just 188 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: a little bit of it if you want to just 189 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: please please, you go right ahead. 190 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 2: Yes. 191 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 3: So the first line in the book is called it says, 192 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 3: my grandmother's hands picked cotton. And then there's a painting 193 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 3: of really is from my grandmother's hands, who was a 194 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 3: very thin woman, but she had thick pads in the 195 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 3: middle of her fingers. And that's because at the age 196 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 3: of four, her daddy was a sharecropper, and so when 197 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 3: she would pick the cotton at four, it would rip 198 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 3: her hands out right. And so this particular, uh part 199 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 3: of the book would I So, so along with the 200 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 3: book an album, a download album download. So there's there's 201 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 3: an album that goes along with the book and and 202 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 3: also in the book. So the book actually comes out 203 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 3: for sale in September, and people will get a download. 204 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 3: They're probably gonna burn it in Florida, but they'll they'll 205 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 3: get it they'll get it. So so so the music 206 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 3: actually is what also helps to deepen the the words, 207 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 3: because each line has a whole song to it that's amazing, 208 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 3: and so you can play it and you play it 209 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 3: with your kids, and then as you're talking, as you're reading, 210 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 3: and thoughts of your own pieces start to come up, 211 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 3: and that makes it rich for when you're talking and 212 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 3: you're reading it to your. 213 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: Life, what did you decide that you would have an 214 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: album that was going to go along with the But 215 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: so all of my books have albums to it, Okay, 216 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: all of them. 217 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 3: Have so so I always so one of the things 218 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 3: that I want people to do is I want people 219 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 3: to find a way into what I'm trying to say 220 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 3: any way that they can. So, whether it's art, whether 221 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 3: it's books, whether it's music, whatever it is i'm trying. 222 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 3: I'm writing, I'm writing a screenplay right now. I'm writing 223 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 3: a play right now. So so so what I'm trying 224 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 3: to do is create kind of this network of of 225 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 3: of of art and books and and and and talks 226 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 3: and everything. So when when our people start to begin 227 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 3: to say, okay, maybe I need to address these particular 228 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 3: pieces that my work is something that they can just 229 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 3: almost like lay with and be with and play with 230 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 3: and in whatever way that they need to. 231 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: And you know, we talk about this book becoming available 232 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: in September, and then I made a little joke about Florida. 233 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: But that's real, No, that's real, real. So talk to 234 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: me about what your thoughts on with these books being 235 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: banned now and the attack so so on history and facts. 236 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. So so I will tell you. 237 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 3: So. So I always think whenever I'm I'm writing, I'm 238 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 3: always thinking in kind of like a fugitive way, like 239 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 3: like I'm almost thinking like like Harriet Tubman, like there 240 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 3: the we we knew, our people knew that if we 241 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 3: were out there telling everybody that we were trying to read, 242 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 3: that we would die, right that that that we would 243 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 3: be murdered to read, to learn to write, and so 244 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 3: and so what we had to do is we had 245 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 3: to develop this kind of fugitive ethos this fugitive philosophy. Right, 246 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 3: so you shut up, let me, I'm gonna tell you 247 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 3: what this is. Don't you go back there, right and 248 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 3: and and so one of the things that I had 249 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 3: thought about this book is that in our community. 250 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 2: We have L B. 251 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 3: G t q I A plus people in our community. 252 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 3: And one of the things that would would make me 253 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 3: happy is if I started to see on the internet 254 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 3: drag queens and trans people that look like us reading 255 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 3: to kids that they love and reading the kids that 256 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 3: are important to them. Because if we're going to change 257 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 3: what's happening for us and our people, it's not going 258 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 3: to be because we ask for permission. It's going to 259 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 3: be because we do it right, and we don't and 260 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 3: and and and we that, and we go to the 261 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 3: cracks and we accentuate the cracks so something else new 262 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 3: can emerge. That's the only way we can do it. 263 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 3: So for me, places like Florida, places like Texas, places 264 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 3: like America, those places are ripe for possibility for our people. 265 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 3: And I'm trying to I'm trying to write things and 266 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 3: do things that when our people come to a place 267 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 3: to where they say, yeah, I want to do something else, 268 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 3: that I have stuff that they can actually utilize. So 269 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 3: I actually just launched a thing online called black Octopuses. 270 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 3: Yeah black yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's 271 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 3: it's there now. It's just it's just lost no Monday. 272 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 3: And so that's a place where I'm going to be 273 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 3: doing a lot of live stuff. I'm going to be 274 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 3: doing workshops, I'm going to be doing things like, Uh, 275 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 3: I have a platform where people who want to know 276 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 3: about racialized trauma and want to do it in community 277 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,359 Speaker 3: that they can do it. It's a subscriber uh platform 278 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 3: and that just launched. And so I'm, like I said, 279 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 3: I'm trying all of these different types. So it's Black 280 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 3: Octopus Society dot com. 281 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: What do you think about engaging with people who are 282 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: opposite of how you think, like say Donald Trump or 283 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: you know, we see people saying you got to have 284 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: these conversations with people. What are your thoughts about that? 285 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 3: Can I be yeah, I want you to be honest. 286 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 3: The black woman's body has this country has always had 287 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 3: unfettered access to every idea, every orifice, every understanding of 288 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 3: the black woman's body. Like it is relatively new sibling 289 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 3: that me and you could be sitting here talking the 290 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 3: way that we're talking and be somewhat sure that there's 291 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 3: not a lunch party outside waiting for us. That's a 292 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 3: new occurrence, right, right, and so and so black bodies 293 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 3: have been conditioned to believe that we are to be 294 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 3: of service to white bodies are we need to make 295 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 3: them comfortable. We need to calm them down, We need 296 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 3: to make sure that they don't get too. 297 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: We have to forget, we have to forget. 298 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 2: Right. 299 00:15:55,680 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 3: I'm not in that place. I am in a place 300 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 3: where uh, we're doctor King, who was a revolutionary at 301 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 3: this time, where he said that he is afraid that 302 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 3: he has led his people into a burning building and 303 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 3: speaking about America, right, and and we override what might 304 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 3: be best for us so much that we want to 305 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 3: expose ourselves to people who want to murder us, who 306 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 3: don't like us, who don't whose philosophy is that we 307 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 3: are a different species. 308 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: What about it? Those people are us too, because there's 309 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: also black people that. 310 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 3: Absolutely we even't just we've drank the water too, right. 311 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 3: This is what I'm talking about racialized trauma, is that 312 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 3: some of us have some of the people that look 313 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 3: like me, and you have decided that it's better to 314 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 3: be on the side of the oppressor than it is 315 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 3: to continue to fight for liberation in free. 316 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: And I think for some people it's also financial reason. 317 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: But that's I'm gonna get some money from these people 318 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: because I'm contrarians. So that, and I'm on their team. 319 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 2: I'm on their team. 320 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 3: But this is why what you do is so important. 321 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 3: This is why what I do is so important. This 322 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 3: is why us being able to say, Look, if it's 323 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 3: a choice between reaching out to you knowing that you 324 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 3: don't rock with me, or a choice between cultivating a 325 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 3: network with people that could potentially do something to make 326 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 3: the changes, I'm putting my efforts into that because over 327 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 3: here I've seen my wife, I've seen my daughter, I've 328 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 3: seen my uncles. I'm seen my grandfather be weathered by 329 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 3: interacting with people like you, and I am not going 330 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 3: to allow that to happen to me. 331 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: You know. I also, like I said earlier, I know 332 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:46,479 Speaker 1: there's so many things we could be talking about, but 333 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: master's in love now. I saw that you actually rewarded 334 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: some of that book as a lot of it, And 335 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: so talk to me about when you originally put this 336 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: book out in twenty fifteen and then reimagining it for 337 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two when it came back out. 338 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 3: Well, you know, in twenty fifteen, I was a different person, right, 339 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 3: I was a different person as a husband, I was 340 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 3: a different person as a parent. I was a different 341 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 3: person I had just been I had just gotten back 342 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 3: from Afghanistan after two years. So I was in Afghanistan 343 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 3: from twenty eleven to twenty thirteen. Twenty and fifteen is 344 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 3: when I actually landed. So I came home in twenty thirteen, 345 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 3: but because of all of the trauma, all of the 346 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 3: things that were going on, I didn't actually land to 347 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 3: about twenty fifties. Yeah, it was it was a rough go, 348 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 3: but but I had family. I had my wife, my kids, 349 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 3: a community that were really holding me through through that 350 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 3: whole the whole time. But so when I wrote Monsters 351 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 3: in Love, I was also doing my private practice and 352 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 3: stuff like that. 353 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 2: So I particular way of. 354 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,919 Speaker 3: Thinking about how to do the work right or when 355 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 3: I will. Actually the first book was when it originally 356 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 3: came out, was called rock the boat okay, And you 357 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 3: know how everybody said, don't rock the boat right. 358 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 1: In relationships, you want to try to not are you 359 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: keep us moved? 360 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 3: You want to, you want to appease everybody. You want 361 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 3: to you want to find the middle ground. You want 362 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 3: to you want to compromise, and stuff like that. And 363 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 3: what I had, what I had learned and what I 364 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 3: watched both in my own life and my own marriage 365 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 3: and in couples is that in actuality, some things need 366 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 3: to be ground on. Some things take years before, like 367 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 3: like like you know how people say things like well 368 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 3: we need to agree to disagree. 369 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 2: That's cool if. 370 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 3: You're talking about dinner. But you can't agree to disagree 371 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 3: about whether or not you want to have. 372 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: A baby, right right. 373 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 3: You can't agree to disagree about if you're spending up 374 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 3: all the money. 375 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: Like why would I get pregnant? He'll change his mind? 376 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, no, There ain't no greed to disagree about 377 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 3: the important things in life. The reason why there's such 378 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 3: why there's such pressure and those types of things, is 379 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 3: because that pressure is design to make you grow up. 380 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 2: Now, you may. 381 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 3: Grow up with that person, or you may grow up 382 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 3: away from that person, but the pressure is relationships are 383 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 3: people growing machines. And so in twenty fifteen, I had 384 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 3: a particular understanding of that. When I rewrote it, I 385 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 3: had over years begun to kind of work with things 386 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,679 Speaker 3: in terms of my own maturity, work with things in 387 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 3: terms of my understanding about race, work with things in 388 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 3: terms of my understanding about sex and sexuality, work with 389 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 3: my own homophobia, work with my own trans pieces, because 390 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 3: I have a lot of the couples. If you notice 391 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 3: in the book, or once you read the book, there's 392 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 3: a lot of couples in there in which you can't 393 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 3: I purposely wanted you to not be able to tell 394 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 3: whether or not it was a heterosexual couple, or a 395 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 3: trans couple, or a homosexual couple, because I wanted you 396 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 3: to get to the conundrums that happened in any relationship 397 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 3: when you're trying to deal with another human being. So 398 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 3: so so so, the difference in twenty fifteen and Monsters 399 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 3: in Love Now was that there's so much more that 400 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 3: I've learned about how to work with couples, and so 401 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 3: much learn more that I've learned as a husband and 402 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 3: as a partner. 403 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: You know, that's I'm glad that you said that, because 404 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: sometimes people will look at somebody like you and the 405 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: books that you've written and think that, Okay, he's just 406 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: you know, we're all works in progress, all of us. Yeah. 407 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: So just because you're an expert in a you know, 408 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: a clinical social worker, like an expert in a field, 409 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean you're not still learning and growing and 410 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: changing and developing always. 411 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 3: And that's and that's why I say it's people growing, right, 412 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 3: Like we we try and find ways around stuff that 413 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 3: ain't supposed to be found ways around. You're supposed to 414 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 3: go through it, and you're supposed to go through it 415 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 3: with other people, right, and and all of the little 416 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 3: tricks in finding the secret and getting the tip and 417 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 3: stuff like that. Usually that works for the lower level things. 418 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 3: But when you're talking about money, sex, kids, and laws, 419 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 3: When you're talking about those things, it's very hard. When 420 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 3: you're talking about I want to spend more time with 421 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 3: you and your partner saying well, I got to hustle. 422 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: Right, I have to work. How do you think we've 423 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: got this house? 424 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 2: Exactly right? 425 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 3: These are the things that are not supposed to be acquiesced. 426 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 3: You're supposed to grind on that with each other and 427 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 3: then see if you can develop the conditioning and tempering 428 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 3: to actually want and reach for more. 429 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: Right, you talk about emotional stalemates, and that can happen. 430 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 1: And I always do feel like the best relationships are 431 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: people who are coming into a situation as an individual 432 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: that is complete in themselves, Like you know how some 433 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: people will be like that's my better half, or you know, 434 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: we kind of come together and that's how we do things, 435 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: and I rely on him and you should be able 436 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: to do that at times. But the best thing is 437 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: when we're both holes and everybody's it's not half and half, 438 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,479 Speaker 1: we're seventy and thirty. We're both a hundred and one 439 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: hundred or ninety eight and you know, just depending on 440 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: where you are at that time. 441 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 3: But most of us aren't ninety eight ninety eight. 442 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, most of us. 443 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 3: Most of us like the idea, the idea that this 444 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 3: is about better half and the two sholl become one 445 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 3: and all that different type of stuff is part of 446 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 3: what gets us in trouble is because we expect our 447 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 3: partners to almost be our surrogate parents. One of the 448 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 3: things I learned by working with couples is that most 449 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 3: of us go into significant relationships at the same level 450 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 3: that our parents were able to reach. 451 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, So I'm scared, but. 452 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 3: We should be right because because what it does is 453 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,479 Speaker 3: it straightens us and makes us go Okay. There are 454 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 3: some pieces here that I haven't interrogated because my mama's 455 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 3: mama's mama's daddy' daddy he's never interrogated. So now it 456 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 3: just looks like how we do stuff right, so and 457 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 3: so and so relationship. 458 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 2: So I'll give you another one. 459 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 3: So do you remember, like when you get into a 460 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 3: relationship with somebody. There are times where you have been 461 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 3: in a relationship and you go, man, I'm coming into 462 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 3: this relationship. I got my feet underneath me. I'm good. 463 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 3: I'm ninety eight percent right right. And then I got 464 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 3: another person that's ninety eight percent right. 465 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 2: We're doing good. As long as he's at. 466 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 3: His apartment and I'm at my apartment. 467 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: We got space, we got our space. 468 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 2: We're good. 469 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 3: And then you get the bright idea to move in 470 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 3: with each other. 471 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: Somebody told me a long time ago that that ended 472 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: his He was like, whatever you do. You know, things 473 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: were great until I decided to move in. 474 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 3: With That's the people growing machine. Pieces that when you're 475 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 3: out here and you're just doing your own thing, you 476 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 3: have infinite choices. But the moment I say I choose you, 477 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 3: my choices become limited. And when our choices become limited, 478 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 3: we get right up against our adult development. Just saying 479 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 3: I choose you, just saying me nothing's going wrong, just 480 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 3: saying let's. 481 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 2: Baby, let's let's let's get an apartment together. 482 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 3: Just that makes it so you're up against your own development, and. 483 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: Then those hard conversations about financing, right, because that does 484 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: come up because now we got to know what's your 485 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: credit scoring. But some people will tell you those are 486 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 1: the things you need to ask super early on, even 487 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:40,719 Speaker 1: before you commit to somebody. 488 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 3: And what I will tell you is, even if you 489 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 3: ask it, you're still gonna have to deal with this, right, 490 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 3: even if you get all even if you ask all 491 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 3: of those questions, even if you even if they say, baby, 492 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 3: I'm I'm I'm an eight twenty my credit score is 493 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 3: at eight twenty five. 494 00:25:54,240 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 4: Okay, we say and what I'm going to say is 495 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 4: is that there is somebody in the relationship that is 496 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 4: more of a high desire person for Certainly in all relationships, 497 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 4: there's a person that's a high desire for something in 498 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 4: a low. 499 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 3: Desire for something. There's a person that high has higher 500 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 3: desire for sex and lower desire for sex. There's the 501 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 3: person that has a higher desire to spend money lower desires. 502 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 3: That's a person that has a lie. 503 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: I know it's what I am you see to me. 504 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 3: But but but that itself is going to create a 505 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 3: conundrum in the relationship. 506 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 1: Because it's also do we keep the same bank account? 507 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: You know, it is financial literacy months. You know, I'm 508 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: a fan of let's put for the bills and everything 509 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 1: in one account, and then we have our separate accounts 510 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: for other things that we want to take care of. 511 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: You know something else. I'm glad you're here today, and 512 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: I wanted to bring this up. I wanted to talk 513 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: about Angel Reyes, right, and what Emmanuel ought to have 514 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: to say about her. But you know, basically, she's amazing 515 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: as an athlete. You know, she's decided she's going to 516 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: go into the w NBA. But she did you know, 517 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: after the earlye eight laws, she got a lot of 518 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: people weighing in on her becoming emotional, and Emmanuel Auto said, 519 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: you can't act like the big bad wolf and then 520 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: cry like courage the cowardly dog. And so people had 521 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 1: a lot of things to say about that. And she 522 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 1: talked about all the vicious online abuse that she's been 523 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: getting as an athlete. She's competitive, she plays the sport amazing. 524 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: I want to know what your thoughts are on the 525 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: criticism that she's been getting and just even her as 526 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 1: because I think everybody's got a lot of eyes now 527 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,959 Speaker 1: on women's basketball, which is a great positive thing, but 528 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 1: women do end up getting judged way differently than men do, 529 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 1: especially when it comes to them being competitive. 530 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. So I just got back from Ghana a couple 531 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 3: of months ago, and I took some before I went, 532 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 3: I took some dirt from both my grandmother's graves and 533 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 3: did a ceramok what they call a welcoming ceremony over there, 534 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 3: whereas basically the returning people, Uh, we go over there 535 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 3: and we and then they and then we can bring 536 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 3: pieces of our of people who couldn't. 537 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 2: Make it, ancestors. 538 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 3: And one of the things that came to me very 539 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 3: clearly was this idea that the hardness that it took 540 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:32,360 Speaker 3: for people to survive this craziness is no longer useful. Actually, 541 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 3: where all the strength is right now is in us 542 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 3: cultivating more softness with each other, right and more softness 543 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 3: in ourselves, and more softness in the ways that we move. 544 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 3: And so to to to to look at this, we 545 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 3: talk about the adultification of black women, in particular, to 546 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 3: look at this beautiful black woman who is a top 547 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 3: athlete in college, has a very bright future, and to 548 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 3: compare her to a cowardly dog, because she is a 549 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 3: because she is expression. Emotion is the idea around hardness. 550 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 3: We don't. Black women aren't supposed to have a whole 551 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 3: breath of emotional content, Like she's not supposed to cry. 552 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 3: She's always supposed to be hard. She's always supposed to 553 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 3: be the big bad woolf right. And what I want 554 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 3: to say is is that the more us, the more 555 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 3: of us that can see that and say, gnosis, cry, 556 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 3: do what you express the full emotions of human beings, right, 557 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 3: And anybody that whether they look like us or not, 558 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 3: anybody that comes at you, I want you to know 559 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 3: we love you as a community. We love what you're doing, 560 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 3: We love how you get down, make your mistakes. 561 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: Everybody is two and dew because of you. The greatest 562 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: numbers ever ever. And she works hard, like they said, 563 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: you know a lot of her teammates and people who 564 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: also play have come to her defense like she's always 565 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: at practice. She works really hard. And even her saying that, like, 566 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: you know, over being over sexualized, and she was. I 567 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: saw somebody in the comments say, well, say she did 568 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: a you know, swimsuit shoot or whatever. So what do 569 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: you expect. I don't. I did not correlate those two 570 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: things at all at all. A swimsuit does not mean 571 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: that it's time that you're given permission to sexualize a person. 572 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 3: And even if it did, what business is that of 573 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 3: probably a man who said that the idea, this is 574 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 3: what I'm saying, that we do not as black bodies, 575 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 3: and as black women in particular, Black women do not 576 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 3: need permission any longer. Stop looking and stop asking for permission. 577 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 3: This structure, the structure only has value to us in 578 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 3: the way only only he sees us as valuable, in 579 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 3: the ways that they can use us to produce something. 580 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 3: And what I want to say is to this, sister Reese, 581 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 3: is that you are much more valuable than that basketball. 582 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 3: You are much more valuable than what what what these 583 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 3: writers are saying. And I want you to hear us 584 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 3: as loud as the critics say. I love you, I 585 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 3: love I love you for you. I love you because 586 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 3: you're a beautiful black woman. You are doing things and 587 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,719 Speaker 3: even if you weren't doing things right now, I still 588 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 3: love you. This we we we are so hard on 589 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 3: black women that that and this is what I mean 590 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 3: that we have to start to reclaim the softer pieces 591 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 3: of ourselves. That is actually the future. The future for 592 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 3: us right now is reclaiming the softness, not the hardness, 593 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,959 Speaker 3: not trying to be like men, not trying to be 594 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 3: like When I say trying to be like men, I'm. 595 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: The stereotype, the stereotype. 596 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 3: Of Listen, more and more black men right now are 597 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 3: unlive in themselves. 598 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: Right Wait, I was I thought you were saying something else. Yeah, no, 599 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: that's awful, But that's. 600 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 3: Because we can no longer deal with this hardness as 601 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 3: the only way of expressing ourselves. 602 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: Because sometimes when men express themselves or they cry, they 603 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: get told that they're being soft, they get told they're sassy. 604 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: That's been a big conversation like. 605 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 3: Being you know, you know, all that different type of stuff. 606 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 3: And it is to control not just black men, but 607 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 3: control the expression of what it means to be a man. 608 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, all right, well listen, I know we could 609 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: go on, and I know you'll be back because the 610 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: book comes down in September, the children's book, The Stories 611 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: on My Grandmother's Hands, also the album that's coming along 612 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:57,479 Speaker 1: with it, and people can get the vinyl. 613 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 3: They can get the vinyl on my web dot com 614 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 3: or go to Black Octopus soociety dot Com. 615 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: I know you're going to be doing some amazing things 616 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: too for the launch of the book. 617 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh yeah, well one amazing thing. I'm come 618 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 3: back here all right. 619 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: Because I know there's gonna be so many things happening 620 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: in this world for us to catch up on, because 621 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: you have great commentary just even on current events, for 622 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: people to be able to understand and relate the stories 623 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: from your books and the things that you're telling us 624 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: to what's happening in the world. So I appreciate you 625 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: for that. Thank you, all right, well, thank you so much. ReSm. Menican. 626 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: And you can also get the Quaking of America, you know, 627 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: you can get my Grandmother's hands, and you can also 628 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: get the book that I'm going to be picking up 629 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: next because I want to make sure that I read 630 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: this as well. So Master's in Love, all right, It's 631 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: way up