Speaker 1: You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope
Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. Hey, their podcast listeners, it's Mango here. I'm
Speaker 1: just dropping into the feed today with a little something extra.
Speaker 1: It's an excerpt of a much longer conversation that my
Speaker 1: producer extraordinaire Mary and I had with Ryan and Grant
Speaker 1: from the podcast Panic World. As they like to say
Speaker 1: on that show, Panic World is a program about how
Speaker 1: the Internet warps our minds and our culture and eventually reality.
Speaker 1: So they do these investigations into things like online hoaxes
Speaker 1: and so much more. It is a fascinating podcast, and
Speaker 1: so for our episode, we took a closer look at
Speaker 1: a phenomenon going on four years now. It is the
Speaker 1: story of how police officers have been reporting bizarre, extreme
Speaker 1: reactions to handling fentanyl. The Panic World team dug into
Speaker 1: how these stories have spread online and they asked us
Speaker 1: to come in and tell the story of how this
Speaker 1: drug was invented. So, you know, we tell this incredible
Speaker 1: story of the genius behind fentanyl and how it went
Speaker 1: from being an obscure hospital medication to the heart of
Speaker 1: this terrible and really deadly epidemic. So what you're about
Speaker 1: to hear is part of that story. The full episode
Speaker 1: is available now in the Panic World Feed, but we
Speaker 1: wanted to give you a taste, so let's dive in.
Speaker 2: Okay, please help me understand how ventanyl actually works, because
Speaker 2: I actually do think at this level of hysteria misinformation,
Speaker 2: the average person probably should know.
Speaker 1: At this Yeah, and the story behind it, it's like
Speaker 1: pretty remarkable. There's this guy, Paul Janson who discovered it,
Speaker 1: who's a stunning character in history. But before we get
Speaker 1: to that, I'm going to pass it over to Mary
Speaker 1: to talk about the history of opioids and fennyl Well.
Speaker 3: Opioids are some of the world's oldest known drugs. The
Speaker 3: ancient Greeks, the ancient Romans were using them. But you know,
Speaker 3: people have been aware of these addictive qualities, right, This
Speaker 3: has been a problem for as long as we've had them,
Speaker 3: and so in the eighteen hundreds, morphine was actually isolated
Speaker 3: to try to fix that, to try to get the benefit,
Speaker 3: the pain relief, the medical benefit without as much of
Speaker 3: the addiction and overdose risk. Didn't work out too well
Speaker 3: because morphine is morphine. So the next great idea was heroin.
Speaker 3: We thought maybe that'll be that'll do it, no one
Speaker 3: will get addicted to heroin. Turned out that didn't go
Speaker 3: so well either, and so the synthetic opioids came along
Speaker 3: in the nineteen thirties, and again the whole idea was,
Speaker 3: how can we make something that will have the pain
Speaker 3: relief quality that we need without having the risk of addiction,
Speaker 3: And so that was actually why people wanted to create
Speaker 3: synthetic opioids.
Speaker 2: That's I feel like that's so interesting because I feel
Speaker 2: like a large criticism that's thrown at Big Pharma, and
Speaker 2: you know me, I'm a huge supporter of Big Pharma.
Speaker 2: They sponsored this, yeah, I mean they're they're yeah, of course,
Speaker 2: But I do think it's interesting that they're trying to
Speaker 2: make a non addictive opioid because like, so much of
Speaker 2: what you hear is like they're trying to keep you hooked,
Speaker 2: you know. But like this is like a centuries long
Speaker 2: process to make.
Speaker 3: A NoMBe because he's so designed to be used in
Speaker 3: medical settings. You know, this wasn't stuff that you were
Speaker 3: supposed to be running around with. It was stuff that
Speaker 3: you know, you're you're having surgery or something, this is
Speaker 3: what you need. But all of these things are derived
Speaker 3: from similar compounds. They all work kind of the same
Speaker 3: way on the brain. They work on what's called the
Speaker 3: MW opioid receptors in the brain mew. Of course, all
Speaker 3: the Greek nerds out there, No, it's the letter M
Speaker 3: and it stands for more. But again, the difference is potency, right,
Speaker 3: So fentanyl, it depends on the delivery mechanism, but good
Speaker 3: rule of thumb, it's about one hundred times more potent
Speaker 3: than morphine. So it is no joke. It's really powerful stuff.
Speaker 3: You can use less of it and get the same result, which,
Speaker 3: again in a surgical setting, that's a good thing. It
Speaker 3: is an incredibly valuable drug and it really did a
Speaker 3: lot for the medical fields in which it is supposed
Speaker 3: to be used. And my gosh, I know you did
Speaker 3: a lot of research about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I was hinting at this guy, this Belgian doctor,
Speaker 1: Paula Jenssen, and he starts working for his family's pharmaceutical
Speaker 1: company in the nineteen fifties. His dad sort of imports drugs,
Speaker 1: but his life is really extraordinary. When he's eight years old,
Speaker 1: his sister is four and she passes away from tubercular meningitis,
Speaker 1: and this is the thing that essentially drives his entire life. Right,
Speaker 1: He's determined to save people, and he's determined to find
Speaker 1: drugs for things that don't exist. And so at the time,
Speaker 1: a lot of pharmacies and drug makers are basically just
Speaker 1: mixing compounds of things that already exist, and so he's
Speaker 1: looking for new ways to attack disease, etc. And so
Speaker 1: he has a chemistry lab as a kid in college.
Speaker 1: It's during the World War and so like the Nazis
Speaker 1: have actually shut down the universities to any higher education,
Speaker 1: and somehow he wrangles his way into these universities and
Speaker 1: he studies in secret for a number of years. He's
Speaker 1: like getting attention from professors and stuff like that, but
Speaker 1: he's like continuing his course of education. At twenty one,
Speaker 1: he comes to the US and he wins a chess
Speaker 1: tournament in Manhattan and uses that to fund his travel.
Speaker 1: But he ends up going to like Cornell and Harvard
Speaker 1: and talking to professors and inspecting how labs work in
Speaker 1: the States, and then he goes back to Belgium. He
Speaker 1: has to do compulsory military service, but he borrows money
Speaker 1: from his dad. He takes over the third floor of
Speaker 1: their office building, and he starts a lab on his own,
Speaker 1: and he's really invested in this idea called structure activity relationships,
Speaker 1: and it's the idea that like modifying a molecule in
Speaker 1: a very specific way can predictably change its biological effects, right,
Speaker 1: And so like he's always thinking about chemistry, he's always
Speaker 1: thinking about the way that drugs look, the way they interact.
Speaker 1: And it's really different from the systems that are working
Speaker 1: everywhere else, Like everyone else is basically just doing trial
Speaker 1: and error in this very coarse way, and he is
Speaker 1: kind of looking at a molecule from the start and
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how he can use it and
Speaker 1: wield it to attack biological diseases. And what years this
Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties, I didn't realize we were still
Speaker 1: like trialing and airing by that way. Yeah, so there's
Speaker 1: a little bit before this. I think there's like a
Speaker 1: syphilis drug that uses this method. But for the most part,
Speaker 1: this ends up being the pioneer of like how startups,
Speaker 1: like biological startups or like pharma startups.
Speaker 2: Like I was going to say, we got to go
Speaker 2: back in time and kill the startup. I don't care
Speaker 2: about fencanel and how good it is. We got to
Speaker 2: kill this guy with a time machine right away.
Speaker 1: He's fascinating because, like he has two mottos. He always
Speaker 1: goes around to everyone in his lab. He really doesn't
Speaker 1: have much of an ego. He's like a polyglot. He
Speaker 1: speaks five languages, but he always asks two questions He
Speaker 1: asks his lab Maate's like what's new, because he's always
Speaker 1: asking them to look for new ideas, new concepts, just
Speaker 1: trying to get them to pluck ideas from wherever they can.
Speaker 1: And his other motto is the patient is waiting, right
Speaker 1: because he just wants these drugs to come out as
Speaker 1: quickly as possible.
Speaker 3: That's also kind of ominous if you think about it, though.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean the doctor will see that.
Speaker 1: But other people in the lab used to clink the
Speaker 1: test tubes as he'd walk down the hallway just to
Speaker 1: let people in the labs ahead of the way know
Speaker 1: that he was going to come and ask pest of
Speaker 1: them about like what's new and how to develop things.
Speaker 1: But he starts immediately like creating incredible drugs, right. So
Speaker 1: one of his drugs that he creates is called hell
Speaker 1: Pitterall it's also known as Haldall, creates this in nineteen
Speaker 1: fifty eight, and yeah, it's an antipsychotic. It dramatically changes
Speaker 1: the lives of people who have schizophrenia. Jansen also comes
Speaker 1: up with like a drug for mental cramps. He comes
Speaker 1: up with emodium. He's just like coming up with like
Speaker 1: by the end of his career, he has I think
Speaker 1: one hundred patents and they've come up with seventy five
Speaker 1: or eighty drugs. Eight of them are on the World
Speaker 1: Health Organization Essential Drugs List. It's remarkable, and he's coming
Speaker 1: up with, like, at its peak, a drug a year
Speaker 1: is coming out of his lab, and a very effective one.
Speaker 1: He's a good businessman, but he's trying to cure things
Speaker 1: that actually matter. So like in the end of his
Speaker 1: career he shifts his focus to just tropical diseases because
Speaker 1: he feels like these people aren't being like tackled. One
Speaker 1: of the craziest things I read about him was he
Speaker 1: actually saves the terra Cotta soldiers in Cheon because they're
Speaker 1: getting destroyed by fungus, and he comes up with this
Speaker 1: like anti fungal ointment to basically like preserve all the
Speaker 1: terracottas sold like he's really remarkable present.
Speaker 2: Oh sorry, if inventing drugs was a video game and
Speaker 2: he cleared it, like he's just doing bide quest, right,
Speaker 2: He's just like I don't know, like I'm gonna do
Speaker 2: this Terracotta Soldier's fungus one because I'm bored, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: sure sounds good to me.
Speaker 1: Back defensial. In nineteen sixty he creates pendyl and he
Speaker 1: develops this by modifying the chemical structure of something called
Speaker 1: met paridian, which is demarol, and it's another synthetic opioid,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, his goal is, as Mary pointed out,
Speaker 1: to improve the onset time. Demorll takes a while to
Speaker 1: kick in, and so if he can modify the core
Speaker 1: molecules and create this fat soluble compound that crosses the
Speaker 1: blood brain barrier more quickly, it actually makes the drug
Speaker 1: more effective. Right, So Fenyl gets used in IV drugs
Speaker 1: in Europe in nineteen sixty three. It's usually given in
Speaker 1: combination with other drugs for anesthesia, but it hits sort
Speaker 1: of this speed bump in the US because there's a
Speaker 1: guy named doctor Robert Gripps is an anesthesiologist.
Speaker 2: Grips nomini of determinism is so awesome being an antistes
Speaker 2: theologist named doctor Dripts is a phenomenal. That's crazy words.
Speaker 1: And he, you know, in some ways, like Jensen is
Speaker 1: ahead of his field. So like he mentors three hundred anesthesiologists,
Speaker 1: like eighteen of them become chief anesthesiologists, And as he
Speaker 1: is in the profession, they are more and more machines
Speaker 1: and monitors for anesthesiology during a surgery. Right, So like
Speaker 1: he's he's coming up with this this field at the
Speaker 1: same time, and he is really worried that this is
Speaker 1: two potent. He's worried that the anesthesiologists can't marger how
Speaker 1: fast and titrade it fast enough. He's worried about it
Speaker 1: in the operating room, but he's also worried about what
Speaker 1: happens if it escapes the operating room. And he's worried
Speaker 1: about the addictive nature of it. And this is like
Speaker 1: so ahead of his time, right, like in the nineteen
Speaker 1: sixties he's thinking about this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like in the nineteen sixties, like people
Speaker 2: are just like drinking coding at home. Yeah, this is
Speaker 2: like peak housewife codeine problem era. So the fact he's
Speaker 2: worried about that is actually pretty impressive.
Speaker 1: Completely, but he does realize that this can change surgeries.
Speaker 1: And so Jansen and Drips kind of meet and hash
Speaker 1: out the details. They meet for us through a mutual friend,
Speaker 1: and then they end up discussing and they meet in
Speaker 1: the middle essentially where Jansen tries to push through a
Speaker 1: drug that the FDA will improve. That's one part ventanyl
Speaker 1: to I think it's forty nine parts rapiderol. It's a
Speaker 1: new concoction that basically like melds the two. The other
Speaker 1: drug is an antipsychotic. It's used to treat nausea, and
Speaker 1: one of the side effects is dysphoria. And the idea
Speaker 1: is that, like, if you can counter the euphoria fedyl
Speaker 1: with this dysphoria, you can sort of make a drug
Speaker 1: that still has the effects of sedation and painkilling, but
Speaker 1: it reduces the addictive nature of it.
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, So it's like we've made like a really
Speaker 2: lame hair yeah, like like it like it's a really
Speaker 2: boring heroin. Okay, I see what they're trying to do here.
Speaker 2: It's called in.
Speaker 1: It's a really smart way of dealing with this, right,
Speaker 1: and they both agree to it. They're both happy about it.
Speaker 1: But by nineteen seventy two, Fennel gets approved for use
Speaker 1: alone only in small amounts in control settings. It's packaged
Speaker 1: in these one milli liter vials for IVY use in hospitals,
Speaker 1: so that again is like to make sure the doses
Speaker 1: are so small that it's not being overused even in
Speaker 1: the hospital setting. But you know, as I mentioned, Jensen
Speaker 1: goes on to having this incredible career. He does so
Speaker 1: many things and creates all these drugs. In two thousand
Speaker 1: and five, the Belgian public media ran this contest to
Speaker 1: name the greatest Belgian of all time, and he comes
Speaker 1: in second, after a literal Saint Saint Damien. I know,
Speaker 1: it's like Tintin should be first, like the waffle guy.
Speaker 1: Second actually is Saint Damien who went and preached and
Speaker 1: worked with lepers in Hawaii. But then Jensen's that famous.
Speaker 2: That's a tough thing to be. That's tough to be
Speaker 2: because because he couldn't invent an anti leprosy medicine, so
Speaker 2: like he had it that one. That's tough.
Speaker 3: But so I mean, what's fascinating is that, you know,
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy two, the FDA approved ventanyl for use alone
Speaker 3: in these little iv viials in hospitals. Actually, one of
Speaker 3: the first overdose deaths in the United States was reported
Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy three, so just one year later.
Speaker 2: Wow, really really poor.
Speaker 1: Ten things to come.
Speaker 3: It was a young man who worked at a hospital
Speaker 3: in North Carolina and he was found dead. The autopsy
Speaker 3: came back, it showed that he had died of an overdose,
Speaker 3: and the local paper described it as a synthetic narcotic
Speaker 3: practically unknown outside the health professions, because that's what it was.
Speaker 3: It only existed in hospitals, but healthcare workers were starting
Speaker 3: to get hooked on it. People were starting to steal
Speaker 3: it from work. People were starting to siphon it out
Speaker 3: of the ivy bags. And so what really changed everything
Speaker 3: was in nineteen eighty one, Ventanyl went off patent and
Speaker 3: so when the patent expired, it blew up tenfold increase
Speaker 3: in sales in the United States. So this is then
Speaker 3: in the mid eighties. You know what's coming. In the
Speaker 3: early nineties, the Sackler family.
Speaker 2: Are the sponsors of our thank you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so you know, now fentanyl is out there,
Speaker 3: it's on the loose, and now people are getting addicted
Speaker 3: to opioids in ever increasing numbers, and so what's going
Speaker 3: to happen next, Well, the internet happens, and what do
Speaker 3: you do with the Internet.
Speaker 2: You wouldn't download fentanyl, would you know, but you would
Speaker 2: sell it on the dark But before you.
Speaker 3: Would do that, you could go read some chemistry papers
Speaker 3: that people have uploaded online. Right, whoa, and so it's
Speaker 3: a synthetic OPI I'd remember, it's just completely made up
Speaker 3: of lab chemical You know a little bit about chemistry,
Speaker 3: which I do not because I failed it. If you
Speaker 3: read these papers, the molecules are actually not all that complicated.
Speaker 3: So people started realizing, well, wait, maybe there's a way
Speaker 3: we can just make this and we don't have to
Speaker 3: deal with buying it from pharmaceutical companies or sneaking it
Speaker 3: out of hospitals.
Speaker 2: Is that the same reason why like synthetic marijuana has
Speaker 2: spread so aggressively is because you can just make it.
Speaker 2: Like I guess I'd never considered that with a synthetic drug.
Speaker 2: If you know chemistry, you can just.
Speaker 3: Well you have to know chemistry and you have to
Speaker 3: have access to the right precursor chemicals.
Speaker 1: But I think the difference between something like meth or
Speaker 1: synthetic marijuana, et cetera. Is that those are actually harder
Speaker 1: to make. The federol is an easier chemical process. You
Speaker 1: actually don't have to be a chemist. You can get
Speaker 1: trained by someone who can show you essentially.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, the big question mark that I've had actually
Speaker 2: this whole episode is where we do get this idea
Speaker 2: that it's coming up from Mexico. Because obviously there's a
Speaker 2: moment where the cartels realize it's cheaper to put this
Speaker 2: stuff in other drugs. That's my understanding is that that's
Speaker 2: the major vector for getting people sick in the first place.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so how does this all stand.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the people who really sort of embrace this
Speaker 1: and make a business of it is the Chippeitos who
Speaker 1: are l Chopo Gusman's four kids, and they're from two
Speaker 1: different mothers. What's fascinating about them to me is that,
Speaker 1: like as El Chopo was on the run and he
Speaker 1: was tunneling out of various prisons and escaping, people were
Speaker 1: really talking about the kids like succession, Like they talk
Speaker 1: of them as these sort of like four idiots who
Speaker 1: are like, uh, you know, El Chapo had grown up hard,
Speaker 1: and these kids had gone to like really fancy schools.
Speaker 1: They were spoiled. They dressed flashy completely, and and they
Speaker 1: were on Instagram, right, so they were like flashing it
Speaker 1: all the time.
Speaker 2: They were I remember this, I remember this. I was
Speaker 2: following them.
Speaker 1: Instagram like tigers and stuff like that, and and and
Speaker 1: you know, people think they're just not capable, and also
Speaker 1: that they're not capable of classic working together. They think
Speaker 1: like there's going to be a power struggle between these
Speaker 1: four and and it'll be like succession essentially, right, and
Speaker 1: there is a power vacuum when their dad goes to
Speaker 1: prison and the cartel fractures. Most of the cartel seems
Speaker 1: to go to the side of this guy El Mayo,
Speaker 1: who who was El Chapo's right hand man or partner.
Speaker 1: But what people forget is that these teens actually did
Speaker 1: grow up in the business and and they weren't just
Speaker 1: like interning. They got real roles and responsibilities, and they're
Speaker 1: actually ruthless and cunning and and so like, instead of
Speaker 1: going after the heroin market or marijuana, they really spot
Speaker 1: this opportunity to modernize, and it becomes clear that like
Speaker 1: even their Instagram positioning is all about the future. They
Speaker 1: want to create like a new brand and new branding
Speaker 1: mechanism for like young drug lords. They want to like
Speaker 1: counter the press narratives in this way. They want to
Speaker 1: be seen as human, flashy and innovative, right, and and
Speaker 1: they spot this opportunity. Infentanyl, the chemical compounds of precursors
Speaker 1: are produced in China and for many years that's where
Speaker 1: fentinyl itself was made and then trafficked to North America
Speaker 1: via Mexico. But they kind of shore up their power first.
Speaker 1: Like one of the brothers, this guy Ivan, he's known
Speaker 1: as El Chipedo. He sets up a group called Los
Speaker 1: Nini's and this is basically the armed security forces. He
Speaker 1: oversees like a notorious group of hitmen and so like.
Speaker 2: Until they get exposed by vent Oh no, I touched it?
Speaker 2: Oh no, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: See how these four brothers really like take on their
Speaker 1: own roles within this thing, right and so, like Alfred
Speaker 1: Dio he worked closely with He's good with the financial
Speaker 1: aspects and the logistics, so he's really the transportation distribution guy.
Speaker 1: Is a guy named a video Al Ratton. He's known
Speaker 1: as the Mouse because he's good at evading security but
Speaker 1: he's actually the one who supervises the production of these
Speaker 1: ventanyl super clandestine facilities that all work isolated from one another.
Speaker 2: I do have to say, cartels have the greatest names
Speaker 2: for each other. Like, honestly, you got to hand it
Speaker 2: to them. They're really good.
Speaker 3: It's the branding, the branding.
Speaker 2: They're so good at branding. They're so good at branding. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: so they've.
Speaker 1: Built and there's one other guy, Joaquin, who is known
Speaker 1: as Alguero. He is the money launderer and he's the
Speaker 1: one who's best at ensuring some of the international facilitation
Speaker 1: of logistics. He's also heavily into crypto and figures out
Speaker 1: how to like launder money through a crystals right like crypto.
Speaker 2: Never trust hold on, I was gonna say, the only
Speaker 2: person who's ever figured out how to launder money through
Speaker 2: crypto this one guy. Nobody else has ever done that.
Speaker 3: I was kind of with them until you told me
Speaker 3: they were into crypto, and now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like I can get behind a narco state,
Speaker 2: but I don't think I got to draw behind like
Speaker 2: crypto currency. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1: So anyway, they're kind of this voltron of like drug operations, logistics,
Speaker 1: and they spot this opportunity and by twenty fourteen they've
Speaker 1: set up their own federyl production labs. And at the
Speaker 1: time they're also aided by crackdowns in China and a
Speaker 1: Mexican president who relaxes the war on cartels.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's been a character in a couple other episodes
Speaker 2: we've done on Andreas Manuel Lopez Abdor. Yeah, he wanted
Speaker 2: to hug all the cartels.
Speaker 3: And China was starting to make it harder for people
Speaker 3: to actually make fentanyl there. The chemicals were fine, the
Speaker 3: fentanyl itself was not icee.
Speaker 1: So they're getting these chemicals shipped to small attinerant labs
Speaker 1: and they're using them to synthesize fennyl. But what's really amazing,
Speaker 1: and obviously they're smuggling the product to the US. What's
Speaker 1: stunning is the economics on this stuff. For just eight
Speaker 1: hundred dollars of precursor chemicals, they make a six hundred
Speaker 1: and forty thousand dollars profit. So like if you scale
Speaker 1: it up right, like a million dollar investment makes about
Speaker 1: eight hundred million dollars in profit.
Speaker 2: That's yeah.
Speaker 1: And so like they're using crypto to launder money, they're sophisticated.
Speaker 1: They're making billions of dollars, and obviously they're causing one
Speaker 1: hundred thousand deaths in the US every year, but the
Speaker 1: volume is insane, Like in twenty twenty four, the DEA
Speaker 1: reports it seized over sixty million feneryl laced fake pills
Speaker 1: and nearly eight thousand pounds of fedyl powder, which equated
Speaker 1: to more than three hundred eighty million lethal doses. And
Speaker 1: in May of this year there was another big drug bus.
Speaker 1: They captured four hundred kilograms of feneryl and two point
Speaker 1: seven million pills, along with cash and other drugs. And
Speaker 1: the thing is, at that volume, you can afford to
Speaker 1: lose a lot of batches and still make a ton
Speaker 1: of money. And and so like they're breaking it in.
Speaker 1: They've come across this incredible business model. As Mary was
Speaker 1: pointing out, there's nothing inherently wrong with the chemicals themselves.
Speaker 1: And the reason China makes these precursors because you know
Speaker 1: they're used in over the counter drugs sometimes prescription drugs,
Speaker 1: also plastics, pesticides, fragrances. Right, even if the authorities cracked
Speaker 1: down on one type of these precursors, chemists can figure
Speaker 1: out a clever way to come up with alternatives. There's
Speaker 1: kind of no crushing this source of materials.
Speaker 3: I found a really great analogy about making fentanyl where
Speaker 3: it described it as I want to say it was
Speaker 3: a Reuter's article, but it talked about it like a
Speaker 3: mister potato head, Like the core ring of the fentanyl
Speaker 3: molecule is the head. And then there's successories that you
Speaker 3: can put on. But if you have the ears from
Speaker 3: one box or the ears from another box, they still
Speaker 3: fit in the air hole, right, So you can ban
Speaker 3: twelve different precursor chemicals, but then there's ninety others that
Speaker 3: you can plug into those holes if you know what
Speaker 3: you're doing, and the effect will generally be about the same.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Ryan and Grant at Panic
Speaker 1: World for having us on and asking us to do
Speaker 1: this collaboration. It was really really wonderful. Please go check
Speaker 1: them out, listen to the rest of the conversation, and
Speaker 1: while you're at it, be sure to subscribe to Part
Speaker 1: Time Genius on your favorite podcast app. We'll be back
Speaker 1: soon with a new episode, but in the meantime, From
Speaker 1: Will Dylan, Gabe, Mary and myself, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for listening Part Time Genius is a production of Kaleidoscope
Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. This show is hosted by Will Pearson and
Speaker 1: me Mongais Chatikler and research by our good pal Mary
Speaker 1: Philip Sandy. Today's episode was engineered and produced by the
Speaker 1: wonderful Dylan Fagan with support from Tyler Klang. The show
Speaker 1: is executive produced for iHeart by Katrina Norvell and Ali Perry,
Speaker 1: with social media support from Sasha Gay, Trustee Dara Potts
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