1 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope 2 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. Hey, their podcast listeners, it's Mango here. I'm 3 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: just dropping into the feed today with a little something extra. 4 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: It's an excerpt of a much longer conversation that my 5 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: producer extraordinaire Mary and I had with Ryan and Grant 6 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: from the podcast Panic World. As they like to say 7 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 1: on that show, Panic World is a program about how 8 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: the Internet warps our minds and our culture and eventually reality. 9 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: So they do these investigations into things like online hoaxes 10 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: and so much more. It is a fascinating podcast, and 11 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: so for our episode, we took a closer look at 12 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: a phenomenon going on four years now. It is the 13 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: story of how police officers have been reporting bizarre, extreme 14 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: reactions to handling fentanyl. The Panic World team dug into 15 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: how these stories have spread online and they asked us 16 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: to come in and tell the story of how this 17 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: drug was invented. So, you know, we tell this incredible 18 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 1: story of the genius behind fentanyl and how it went 19 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: from being an obscure hospital medication to the heart of 20 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 1: this terrible and really deadly epidemic. So what you're about 21 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: to hear is part of that story. The full episode 22 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: is available now in the Panic World Feed, but we 23 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: wanted to give you a taste, so let's dive in. 24 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 2: Okay, please help me understand how ventanyl actually works, because 25 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: I actually do think at this level of hysteria misinformation, 26 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 2: the average person probably should know. 27 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: At this Yeah, and the story behind it, it's like 28 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: pretty remarkable. There's this guy, Paul Janson who discovered it, 29 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 1: who's a stunning character in history. But before we get 30 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: to that, I'm going to pass it over to Mary 31 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 1: to talk about the history of opioids and fennyl Well. 32 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 3: Opioids are some of the world's oldest known drugs. The 33 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 3: ancient Greeks, the ancient Romans were using them. But you know, 34 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 3: people have been aware of these addictive qualities, right, This 35 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 3: has been a problem for as long as we've had them, 36 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,519 Speaker 3: and so in the eighteen hundreds, morphine was actually isolated 37 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 3: to try to fix that, to try to get the benefit, 38 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 3: the pain relief, the medical benefit without as much of 39 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 3: the addiction and overdose risk. Didn't work out too well 40 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 3: because morphine is morphine. So the next great idea was heroin. 41 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 3: We thought maybe that'll be that'll do it, no one 42 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 3: will get addicted to heroin. Turned out that didn't go 43 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 3: so well either, and so the synthetic opioids came along 44 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 3: in the nineteen thirties, and again the whole idea was, 45 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 3: how can we make something that will have the pain 46 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 3: relief quality that we need without having the risk of addiction, 47 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 3: And so that was actually why people wanted to create 48 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 3: synthetic opioids. 49 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: That's I feel like that's so interesting because I feel 50 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 2: like a large criticism that's thrown at Big Pharma, and 51 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 2: you know me, I'm a huge supporter of Big Pharma. 52 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 2: They sponsored this, yeah, I mean they're they're yeah, of course, 53 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 2: But I do think it's interesting that they're trying to 54 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 2: make a non addictive opioid because like, so much of 55 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: what you hear is like they're trying to keep you hooked, 56 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: you know. But like this is like a centuries long 57 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 2: process to make. 58 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 3: A NoMBe because he's so designed to be used in 59 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 3: medical settings. You know, this wasn't stuff that you were 60 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 3: supposed to be running around with. It was stuff that 61 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 3: you know, you're you're having surgery or something, this is 62 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 3: what you need. But all of these things are derived 63 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 3: from similar compounds. They all work kind of the same 64 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 3: way on the brain. They work on what's called the 65 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 3: MW opioid receptors in the brain mew. Of course, all 66 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 3: the Greek nerds out there, No, it's the letter M 67 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 3: and it stands for more. But again, the difference is potency, right, 68 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 3: So fentanyl, it depends on the delivery mechanism, but good 69 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 3: rule of thumb, it's about one hundred times more potent 70 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 3: than morphine. So it is no joke. It's really powerful stuff. 71 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 3: You can use less of it and get the same result, which, 72 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 3: again in a surgical setting, that's a good thing. It 73 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 3: is an incredibly valuable drug and it really did a 74 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 3: lot for the medical fields in which it is supposed 75 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 3: to be used. And my gosh, I know you did 76 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 3: a lot of research about that. 77 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I was hinting at this guy, this Belgian doctor, 78 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: Paula Jenssen, and he starts working for his family's pharmaceutical 79 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: company in the nineteen fifties. His dad sort of imports drugs, 80 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: but his life is really extraordinary. When he's eight years old, 81 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: his sister is four and she passes away from tubercular meningitis, 82 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: and this is the thing that essentially drives his entire life. Right, 83 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: He's determined to save people, and he's determined to find 84 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: drugs for things that don't exist. And so at the time, 85 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: a lot of pharmacies and drug makers are basically just 86 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: mixing compounds of things that already exist, and so he's 87 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 1: looking for new ways to attack disease, etc. And so 88 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: he has a chemistry lab as a kid in college. 89 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: It's during the World War and so like the Nazis 90 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: have actually shut down the universities to any higher education, 91 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: and somehow he wrangles his way into these universities and 92 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: he studies in secret for a number of years. He's 93 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: like getting attention from professors and stuff like that, but 94 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: he's like continuing his course of education. At twenty one, 95 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: he comes to the US and he wins a chess 96 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: tournament in Manhattan and uses that to fund his travel. 97 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: But he ends up going to like Cornell and Harvard 98 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: and talking to professors and inspecting how labs work in 99 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: the States, and then he goes back to Belgium. He 100 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 1: has to do compulsory military service, but he borrows money 101 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: from his dad. He takes over the third floor of 102 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: their office building, and he starts a lab on his own, 103 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: and he's really invested in this idea called structure activity relationships, 104 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: and it's the idea that like modifying a molecule in 105 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: a very specific way can predictably change its biological effects, right, 106 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: And so like he's always thinking about chemistry, he's always 107 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: thinking about the way that drugs look, the way they interact. 108 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: And it's really different from the systems that are working 109 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: everywhere else, Like everyone else is basically just doing trial 110 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: and error in this very coarse way, and he is 111 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: kind of looking at a molecule from the start and 112 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: trying to figure out how he can use it and 113 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: wield it to attack biological diseases. And what years this 114 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties, I didn't realize we were still 115 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: like trialing and airing by that way. Yeah, so there's 116 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: a little bit before this. I think there's like a 117 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: syphilis drug that uses this method. But for the most part, 118 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: this ends up being the pioneer of like how startups, 119 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: like biological startups or like pharma startups. 120 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 2: Like I was going to say, we got to go 121 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 2: back in time and kill the startup. I don't care 122 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 2: about fencanel and how good it is. We got to 123 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 2: kill this guy with a time machine right away. 124 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: He's fascinating because, like he has two mottos. He always 125 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: goes around to everyone in his lab. He really doesn't 126 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: have much of an ego. He's like a polyglot. He 127 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: speaks five languages, but he always asks two questions He 128 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: asks his lab Maate's like what's new, because he's always 129 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: asking them to look for new ideas, new concepts, just 130 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: trying to get them to pluck ideas from wherever they can. 131 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: And his other motto is the patient is waiting, right 132 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: because he just wants these drugs to come out as 133 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: quickly as possible. 134 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 3: That's also kind of ominous if you think about it, though. 135 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean the doctor will see that. 136 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: But other people in the lab used to clink the 137 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: test tubes as he'd walk down the hallway just to 138 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: let people in the labs ahead of the way know 139 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: that he was going to come and ask pest of 140 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: them about like what's new and how to develop things. 141 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: But he starts immediately like creating incredible drugs, right. So 142 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: one of his drugs that he creates is called hell 143 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: Pitterall it's also known as Haldall, creates this in nineteen 144 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:02,239 Speaker 1: fifty eight, and yeah, it's an antipsychotic. It dramatically changes 145 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: the lives of people who have schizophrenia. Jansen also comes 146 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: up with like a drug for mental cramps. He comes 147 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: up with emodium. He's just like coming up with like 148 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: by the end of his career, he has I think 149 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: one hundred patents and they've come up with seventy five 150 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: or eighty drugs. Eight of them are on the World 151 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: Health Organization Essential Drugs List. It's remarkable, and he's coming 152 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: up with, like, at its peak, a drug a year 153 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: is coming out of his lab, and a very effective one. 154 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: He's a good businessman, but he's trying to cure things 155 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: that actually matter. So like in the end of his 156 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: career he shifts his focus to just tropical diseases because 157 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: he feels like these people aren't being like tackled. One 158 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 1: of the craziest things I read about him was he 159 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: actually saves the terra Cotta soldiers in Cheon because they're 160 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: getting destroyed by fungus, and he comes up with this 161 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: like anti fungal ointment to basically like preserve all the 162 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: terracottas sold like he's really remarkable present. 163 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 2: Oh sorry, if inventing drugs was a video game and 164 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 2: he cleared it, like he's just doing bide quest, right, 165 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 2: He's just like I don't know, like I'm gonna do 166 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 2: this Terracotta Soldier's fungus one because I'm bored, Like, yeah, 167 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 2: sure sounds good to me. 168 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: Back defensial. In nineteen sixty he creates pendyl and he 169 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: develops this by modifying the chemical structure of something called 170 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: met paridian, which is demarol, and it's another synthetic opioid, 171 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, his goal is, as Mary pointed out, 172 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: to improve the onset time. Demorll takes a while to 173 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: kick in, and so if he can modify the core 174 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: molecules and create this fat soluble compound that crosses the 175 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: blood brain barrier more quickly, it actually makes the drug 176 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: more effective. Right, So Fenyl gets used in IV drugs 177 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 1: in Europe in nineteen sixty three. It's usually given in 178 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,559 Speaker 1: combination with other drugs for anesthesia, but it hits sort 179 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: of this speed bump in the US because there's a 180 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: guy named doctor Robert Gripps is an anesthesiologist. 181 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 2: Grips nomini of determinism is so awesome being an antistes 182 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: theologist named doctor Dripts is a phenomenal. That's crazy words. 183 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: And he, you know, in some ways, like Jensen is 184 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: ahead of his field. So like he mentors three hundred anesthesiologists, 185 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: like eighteen of them become chief anesthesiologists, And as he 186 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 1: is in the profession, they are more and more machines 187 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: and monitors for anesthesiology during a surgery. Right, So like 188 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 1: he's he's coming up with this this field at the 189 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: same time, and he is really worried that this is 190 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: two potent. He's worried that the anesthesiologists can't marger how 191 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: fast and titrade it fast enough. He's worried about it 192 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: in the operating room, but he's also worried about what 193 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: happens if it escapes the operating room. And he's worried 194 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: about the addictive nature of it. And this is like 195 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,079 Speaker 1: so ahead of his time, right, like in the nineteen 196 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: sixties he's thinking about this. 197 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like in the nineteen sixties, like people 198 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 2: are just like drinking coding at home. Yeah, this is 199 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 2: like peak housewife codeine problem era. So the fact he's 200 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 2: worried about that is actually pretty impressive. 201 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: Completely, but he does realize that this can change surgeries. 202 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 1: And so Jansen and Drips kind of meet and hash 203 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: out the details. They meet for us through a mutual friend, 204 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: and then they end up discussing and they meet in 205 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: the middle essentially where Jansen tries to push through a 206 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: drug that the FDA will improve. That's one part ventanyl 207 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: to I think it's forty nine parts rapiderol. It's a 208 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 1: new concoction that basically like melds the two. The other 209 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 1: drug is an antipsychotic. It's used to treat nausea, and 210 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: one of the side effects is dysphoria. And the idea 211 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: is that, like, if you can counter the euphoria fedyl 212 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 1: with this dysphoria, you can sort of make a drug 213 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: that still has the effects of sedation and painkilling, but 214 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: it reduces the addictive nature of it. 215 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: Oh interesting, So it's like we've made like a really 216 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: lame hair yeah, like like it like it's a really 217 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 2: boring heroin. Okay, I see what they're trying to do here. 218 00:11:58,960 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 2: It's called in. 219 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: It's a really smart way of dealing with this, right, 220 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: and they both agree to it. They're both happy about it. 221 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: But by nineteen seventy two, Fennel gets approved for use 222 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: alone only in small amounts in control settings. It's packaged 223 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: in these one milli liter vials for IVY use in hospitals, 224 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: so that again is like to make sure the doses 225 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: are so small that it's not being overused even in 226 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: the hospital setting. But you know, as I mentioned, Jensen 227 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: goes on to having this incredible career. He does so 228 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: many things and creates all these drugs. In two thousand 229 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 1: and five, the Belgian public media ran this contest to 230 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: name the greatest Belgian of all time, and he comes 231 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: in second, after a literal Saint Saint Damien. I know, 232 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,079 Speaker 1: it's like Tintin should be first, like the waffle guy. 233 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: Second actually is Saint Damien who went and preached and 234 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: worked with lepers in Hawaii. But then Jensen's that famous. 235 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:55,719 Speaker 2: That's a tough thing to be. That's tough to be 236 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 2: because because he couldn't invent an anti leprosy medicine, so 237 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 2: like he had it that one. That's tough. 238 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 3: But so I mean, what's fascinating is that, you know, 239 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy two, the FDA approved ventanyl for use alone 240 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 3: in these little iv viials in hospitals. Actually, one of 241 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 3: the first overdose deaths in the United States was reported 242 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy three, so just one year later. 243 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 2: Wow, really really poor. 244 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: Ten things to come. 245 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 3: It was a young man who worked at a hospital 246 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 3: in North Carolina and he was found dead. The autopsy 247 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 3: came back, it showed that he had died of an overdose, 248 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 3: and the local paper described it as a synthetic narcotic 249 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 3: practically unknown outside the health professions, because that's what it was. 250 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 3: It only existed in hospitals, but healthcare workers were starting 251 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 3: to get hooked on it. People were starting to steal 252 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 3: it from work. People were starting to siphon it out 253 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 3: of the ivy bags. And so what really changed everything 254 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 3: was in nineteen eighty one, Ventanyl went off patent and 255 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 3: so when the patent expired, it blew up tenfold increase 256 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 3: in sales in the United States. So this is then 257 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 3: in the mid eighties. You know what's coming. In the 258 00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 3: early nineties, the Sackler family. 259 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 2: Are the sponsors of our thank you. 260 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so you know, now fentanyl is out there, 261 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 3: it's on the loose, and now people are getting addicted 262 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 3: to opioids in ever increasing numbers, and so what's going 263 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 3: to happen next, Well, the internet happens, and what do 264 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 3: you do with the Internet. 265 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 2: You wouldn't download fentanyl, would you know, but you would 266 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 2: sell it on the dark But before you. 267 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 3: Would do that, you could go read some chemistry papers 268 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 3: that people have uploaded online. Right, whoa, and so it's 269 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 3: a synthetic OPI I'd remember, it's just completely made up 270 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 3: of lab chemical You know a little bit about chemistry, 271 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 3: which I do not because I failed it. If you 272 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 3: read these papers, the molecules are actually not all that complicated. 273 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 3: So people started realizing, well, wait, maybe there's a way 274 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 3: we can just make this and we don't have to 275 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 3: deal with buying it from pharmaceutical companies or sneaking it 276 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 3: out of hospitals. 277 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 2: Is that the same reason why like synthetic marijuana has 278 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 2: spread so aggressively is because you can just make it. 279 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 2: Like I guess I'd never considered that with a synthetic drug. 280 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 2: If you know chemistry, you can just. 281 00:14:57,880 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 3: Well you have to know chemistry and you have to 282 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 3: have access to the right precursor chemicals. 283 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: But I think the difference between something like meth or 284 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: synthetic marijuana, et cetera. Is that those are actually harder 285 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: to make. The federol is an easier chemical process. You 286 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: actually don't have to be a chemist. You can get 287 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: trained by someone who can show you essentially. 288 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 2: So, yeah, the big question mark that I've had actually 289 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 2: this whole episode is where we do get this idea 290 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 2: that it's coming up from Mexico. Because obviously there's a 291 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 2: moment where the cartels realize it's cheaper to put this 292 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 2: stuff in other drugs. That's my understanding is that that's 293 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 2: the major vector for getting people sick in the first place. 294 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 2: But yeah, so how does this all stand. 295 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the people who really sort of embrace this 296 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: and make a business of it is the Chippeitos who 297 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: are l Chopo Gusman's four kids, and they're from two 298 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: different mothers. What's fascinating about them to me is that, 299 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: like as El Chopo was on the run and he 300 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: was tunneling out of various prisons and escaping, people were 301 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: really talking about the kids like succession, Like they talk 302 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: of them as these sort of like four idiots who 303 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: are like, uh, you know, El Chapo had grown up hard, 304 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: and these kids had gone to like really fancy schools. 305 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: They were spoiled. They dressed flashy completely, and and they 306 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: were on Instagram, right, so they were like flashing it 307 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: all the time. 308 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 2: They were I remember this, I remember this. I was 309 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 2: following them. 310 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: Instagram like tigers and stuff like that, and and and 311 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: you know, people think they're just not capable, and also 312 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: that they're not capable of classic working together. They think 313 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: like there's going to be a power struggle between these 314 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: four and and it'll be like succession essentially, right, and 315 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: there is a power vacuum when their dad goes to 316 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: prison and the cartel fractures. Most of the cartel seems 317 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: to go to the side of this guy El Mayo, 318 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: who who was El Chapo's right hand man or partner. 319 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: But what people forget is that these teens actually did 320 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: grow up in the business and and they weren't just 321 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: like interning. They got real roles and responsibilities, and they're 322 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: actually ruthless and cunning and and so like, instead of 323 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: going after the heroin market or marijuana, they really spot 324 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: this opportunity to modernize, and it becomes clear that like 325 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: even their Instagram positioning is all about the future. They 326 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: want to create like a new brand and new branding 327 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: mechanism for like young drug lords. They want to like 328 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: counter the press narratives in this way. They want to 329 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: be seen as human, flashy and innovative, right, and and 330 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: they spot this opportunity. Infentanyl, the chemical compounds of precursors 331 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: are produced in China and for many years that's where 332 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: fentinyl itself was made and then trafficked to North America 333 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: via Mexico. But they kind of shore up their power first. 334 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 1: Like one of the brothers, this guy Ivan, he's known 335 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: as El Chipedo. He sets up a group called Los 336 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: Nini's and this is basically the armed security forces. He 337 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: oversees like a notorious group of hitmen and so like. 338 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 2: Until they get exposed by vent Oh no, I touched it? 339 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 2: Oh no, yeah, exactly. 340 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: See how these four brothers really like take on their 341 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: own roles within this thing, right and so, like Alfred 342 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: Dio he worked closely with He's good with the financial 343 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: aspects and the logistics, so he's really the transportation distribution guy. 344 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: Is a guy named a video Al Ratton. He's known 345 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: as the Mouse because he's good at evading security but 346 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: he's actually the one who supervises the production of these 347 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: ventanyl super clandestine facilities that all work isolated from one another. 348 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 2: I do have to say, cartels have the greatest names 349 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 2: for each other. Like, honestly, you got to hand it 350 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 2: to them. They're really good. 351 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 3: It's the branding, the branding. 352 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 2: They're so good at branding. They're so good at branding. Yeah, okay, 353 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 2: so they've. 354 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: Built and there's one other guy, Joaquin, who is known 355 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: as Alguero. He is the money launderer and he's the 356 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 1: one who's best at ensuring some of the international facilitation 357 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: of logistics. He's also heavily into crypto and figures out 358 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: how to like launder money through a crystals right like crypto. 359 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 2: Never trust hold on, I was gonna say, the only 360 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: person who's ever figured out how to launder money through 361 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 2: crypto this one guy. Nobody else has ever done that. 362 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 3: I was kind of with them until you told me 363 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 3: they were into crypto, and now. 364 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like I can get behind a narco state, 365 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 2: but I don't think I got to draw behind like 366 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 2: crypto currency. Yeah exactly. 367 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: So anyway, they're kind of this voltron of like drug operations, logistics, 368 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: and they spot this opportunity and by twenty fourteen they've 369 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: set up their own federyl production labs. And at the 370 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: time they're also aided by crackdowns in China and a 371 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: Mexican president who relaxes the war on cartels. 372 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's been a character in a couple other episodes 373 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 2: we've done on Andreas Manuel Lopez Abdor. Yeah, he wanted 374 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,239 Speaker 2: to hug all the cartels. 375 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 3: And China was starting to make it harder for people 376 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 3: to actually make fentanyl there. The chemicals were fine, the 377 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 3: fentanyl itself was not icee. 378 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: So they're getting these chemicals shipped to small attinerant labs 379 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: and they're using them to synthesize fennyl. But what's really amazing, 380 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: and obviously they're smuggling the product to the US. What's 381 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: stunning is the economics on this stuff. For just eight 382 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: hundred dollars of precursor chemicals, they make a six hundred 383 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 1: and forty thousand dollars profit. So like if you scale 384 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: it up right, like a million dollar investment makes about 385 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: eight hundred million dollars in profit. 386 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 2: That's yeah. 387 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: And so like they're using crypto to launder money, they're sophisticated. 388 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: They're making billions of dollars, and obviously they're causing one 389 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: hundred thousand deaths in the US every year, but the 390 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: volume is insane, Like in twenty twenty four, the DEA 391 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: reports it seized over sixty million feneryl laced fake pills 392 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: and nearly eight thousand pounds of fedyl powder, which equated 393 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: to more than three hundred eighty million lethal doses. And 394 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: in May of this year there was another big drug bus. 395 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 1: They captured four hundred kilograms of feneryl and two point 396 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: seven million pills, along with cash and other drugs. And 397 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 1: the thing is, at that volume, you can afford to 398 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: lose a lot of batches and still make a ton 399 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: of money. And and so like they're breaking it in. 400 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: They've come across this incredible business model. As Mary was 401 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:04,360 Speaker 1: pointing out, there's nothing inherently wrong with the chemicals themselves. 402 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,479 Speaker 1: And the reason China makes these precursors because you know 403 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: they're used in over the counter drugs sometimes prescription drugs, 404 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: also plastics, pesticides, fragrances. Right, even if the authorities cracked 405 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 1: down on one type of these precursors, chemists can figure 406 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: out a clever way to come up with alternatives. There's 407 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: kind of no crushing this source of materials. 408 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 3: I found a really great analogy about making fentanyl where 409 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 3: it described it as I want to say it was 410 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 3: a Reuter's article, but it talked about it like a 411 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 3: mister potato head, Like the core ring of the fentanyl 412 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 3: molecule is the head. And then there's successories that you 413 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 3: can put on. But if you have the ears from 414 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 3: one box or the ears from another box, they still 415 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 3: fit in the air hole, right, So you can ban 416 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 3: twelve different precursor chemicals, but then there's ninety others that 417 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 3: you can plug into those holes if you know what 418 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 3: you're doing, and the effect will generally be about the same. 419 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Ryan and Grant at Panic 420 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: World for having us on and asking us to do 421 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: this collaboration. It was really really wonderful. Please go check 422 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: them out, listen to the rest of the conversation, and 423 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 1: while you're at it, be sure to subscribe to Part 424 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 1: Time Genius on your favorite podcast app. We'll be back 425 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: soon with a new episode, but in the meantime, From 426 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: Will Dylan, Gabe, Mary and myself, thank you so much 427 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: for listening Part Time Genius is a production of Kaleidoscope 428 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. This show is hosted by Will Pearson and 429 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: me Mongais Chatikler and research by our good pal Mary 430 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: Philip Sandy. Today's episode was engineered and produced by the 431 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: wonderful Dylan Fagan with support from Tyler Klang. The show 432 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: is executive produced for iHeart by Katrina Norvell and Ali Perry, 433 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: with social media support from Sasha Gay, Trustee Dara Potts 434 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 1: and Viny Shory. For more podcasts from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio, 435 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,880 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 436 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.