1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, breaking news. 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 2: Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie missing day eighteen. This as 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 2: another threatening, much more threatening ransom note is received, and 4 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 2: we learn, contrary to what Sheriff Nanos said just twenty 5 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 2: four short hours ago, the search has extended into Mexico. 6 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 2: Good evening, I'm going to see Grace. This is Crime Stories. 7 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 2: I want to thank you for being with us tonight. 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 2: We are learning the search has extended into Mexico. This 9 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 2: as another ransom note has been received. This ransom note 10 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 2: offers a different Bitcoin address than the others. It is 11 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 2: also much much more menacing. Joining me and all Star 12 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: panel to make sense of what we know right now. 13 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 2: To Andrew Black joining us, former Special Agent in charge 14 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 2: of the Tucson Office of the FBI. Twenty seven years 15 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 2: with the FBI, former felony prosecutor in Chicago, never a 16 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 2: lack of business. They're currently Chief of University Hawaii Department 17 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: Public Safety. Andrew Black, thank you for being with us. 18 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 2: What do you make of the FBI now stating they 19 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 2: are venturing into Mexico. They are asking Mexico to share information. 20 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 3: It indicates to me that they've got new leads. So 21 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 3: many leads have come in, and you know, the FBI 22 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 3: also put out a stern warning against people fabricating kidnap. 23 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:38,559 Speaker 3: Kidnapping notes are ransoming notes, ransoming notes. Excuse me. These 24 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 3: things take time to run down and it takes energy 25 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 3: and resources from the task force trying to locate Nancy Guthrie. 26 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 3: So these types of leads just add to the workload 27 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 3: of those on the ground trying to find her. And 28 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 3: I suspect this venture into Mexico is based on additional 29 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 3: leads that they've received, including information in one of the 30 00:01:58,880 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 3: ransom notes. 31 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 2: Of Right now, I believe it is around forty thousand 32 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 2: tips that law enforcement has received. I'm sure at least 33 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 2: half of those are bogus. If you want to see 34 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 2: what type of tips are coming in, just go online, 35 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 2: take a look at Twitter at the and take a 36 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 2: look at all of the zany theories. Now, on the 37 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 2: other hand, some pretty good ideas are surfacing as well. 38 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 2: There is a theory right now still and I'm sure 39 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 2: the FBI and local law enforcement is besieged with theories 40 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: about botched robbery. So can we just put that to 41 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 2: sleep now? As in euthanasia, that put to sleep. This 42 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 2: is not aboutched robbery. This is not a burglary gone wrong. 43 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 2: Andrew Black in a nutshell. Why do you believe that 44 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie was not a random victim. 45 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 3: No, I'm glad you're emphasizing that because all the indications 46 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 3: and the task force working this case, they believe they're 47 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 3: working a targeted victim in Nancy that based on the 48 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 3: m O of the individual, he was suited up from 49 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 3: head to toe concealing his identity. He had a backpack, 50 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 3: it looked like it was filled with gear. It does 51 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 3: not have any of the earmarkings of a robbery or 52 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 3: a crime of opportunity. This looks like it was planned, 53 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 3: and we do know there's an abduction past that It's 54 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 3: very difficult to say what we have following all these 55 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 3: ransom notes that one was, you know, definitely proved to 56 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 3: be a hoaxed individuals being prosecuted, and these others that 57 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 3: keep rolling in to TMZ and other outlets. 58 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: Would you say it's not a robbery. Obviously, the guy's 59 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 2: bringing in a ton of stuff. His backpack is stuffed 60 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: to the gills with rab You take things out, you 61 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 2: don't carry them in, and let me go out to 62 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: Josh Coles Rude, veteran criminal defense attorney, former felony prosecutor, 63 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: now founder of Cole's Route Law Offices. Josh, I've never 64 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 2: seen a burglar or a robber, and the difference is 65 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 2: a robber robs from an individual. A burglary is when 66 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 2: someone enters a dwelling or business without consent, with the 67 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 2: intent to commit a felony therein. That felony could be theft. 68 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: That felony could be or agassault. The felony could be 69 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,359 Speaker 2: a number of things, but typically a burglary is a 70 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 2: lawful entry with intent to commit a theft YEA. And 71 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 2: when the burglar, and this is statistically overwhelmingly true, when 72 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 2: the burglar comes in and sees the person, they're like, 73 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 2: ah and leave. They don't want contact with the victim. 74 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 2: They don't want to be identified. They want to come 75 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: in and steal and leave, or I mean and rape 76 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 2: and leave. And if they do see a victim, they 77 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 2: either high tail it or they kill the victim so 78 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 2: they cannot be identified. It's two plus two equals four exactly. 79 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 4: And Arizona actually distinguishes a burglary of an occupied structure 80 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 4: versus a burglary of an unoccupied structure. Now you can 81 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 4: look at the FBI statistics about how infrequent. In fact, 82 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 4: there has never been a recorded case where there's been 83 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 4: a burglary gone wrong where the burglary suspects end up 84 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 4: kidnapping an elderly woman and keeping her alive. It just 85 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 4: it's at the unicorn. It just doesn't happen. And we 86 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 4: know that she was alive when she left because the 87 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 4: blood trail led to the door and then suddenly just 88 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 4: stopped like they were putting their hand over her mouth. 89 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 4: And this has there's no indication, no signs and symptoms 90 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 4: that this was a burglary gone wrong. So we do 91 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 4: need to look at motive here, and it's good that 92 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 4: we can cross this motive off. Now we have to 93 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 4: look at was this based on money? Was this based 94 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 4: on something else? And only once we determine motive can 95 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 4: we kind of narrow down who the suspects may be too. 96 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 2: Scott Iiker joining us. He is a founding member of 97 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 2: the Cast Cellular Analysis Survey Team at the FBI twenty 98 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 2: two years also a former homicide detective with Norfolk Police. 99 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 2: Now with precision cellular Analysis, Scott you and I have 100 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 2: seen so many cases prosecuted, investigated cases. I don't mean 101 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 2: just talk about them, I may prosecute them. When a 102 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 2: burglary goes wrong, that means somebody's home. When the burglar 103 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 2: goes in and they leave, Why in the world would 104 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 2: a burglar or robber decide, oh, I'll just take the 105 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 2: victim with me. Yes, she's eighty four and she has 106 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 2: a hard time walking, but no problem. It's ridiculous burglary 107 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 2: robbery gone wrong. What a waste of breath. 108 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 5: I totally agree on that. Most burglars are trying to 109 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 5: get quick, quick, quickly in and then out. They want 110 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 5: to grab what is valuable and then get out of 111 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 5: that house as soon as possible. They do main mistakes, 112 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 5: and every once in a while go in when there's 113 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 5: someone else in the house. But you're right, and I 114 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 5: totally agree, it's very random that you know they would 115 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 5: hurt the person in the house. They're more want to 116 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 5: get away from the scene as soon as possible because 117 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 5: they're going to, you know, call the cops on them 118 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 5: and stuff like that. 119 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 2: We also know, when you're looking at this timeline, there 120 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: was a two o'clock event. As I have mentioned, several 121 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 2: times where her pacement where her heart monitor spikes or 122 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 2: so we have been told that's around two a m. 123 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 2: Which makes me wonder if that's the first time she 124 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 2: sees the PERP. Then to twelve software detects a person 125 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 2: on a camera to twenty eight, but by now the 126 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 2: door camera has already been disconnected. Okay, I want to 127 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: talk about DNA, Dave mac, how many more times can 128 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:19,239 Speaker 2: we say it? The DNA on the random glove found 129 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 2: about one point five miles away from Nancy Guthrie's home, 130 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: thrown to the side of the street did not get 131 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 2: a codas hit. That's the combined DNA databank, the National Databank, correct, right. 132 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 6: It did not get a codas hit. 133 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 2: You're correct, okay, which means you know, if you follow 134 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:45,479 Speaker 2: that through, the DNA in the home was not connected 135 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 2: to that glove, and the DNA and a home did 136 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 2: not get a codas hit. Is that correct? 137 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 6: That is correct. It's not all of it, but it's correct. 138 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 2: Okay. What do you mean by not all of it? 139 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 6: Well, there was also a partial DNA collected inside of 140 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 6: the home. That partial DNA was sent to the Florida 141 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 6: lab just like the DNA found on the glove and 142 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 6: in the other end the other DNA found in the house. 143 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 6: The difference here is that it is a partial DNA 144 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 6: profile and they have yet to the people in Florida 145 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 6: at the lab have yet to develop it out where 146 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 6: it could be checked in CODIS. So that partial DNA 147 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 6: that they've developed from inside the home has not yet 148 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 6: been subjected to a coda's hit because it is a 149 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 6: partial DNA. 150 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 2: Dave Mac, You're right, and I appreciate the way you 151 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 2: said that, because some reporters have stated there was a 152 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 2: partial DNA profile and it didn't get a hit at COTIS. 153 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 2: The reality is CODIS is a national data bank. It's 154 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: very very strict on what DNA profiles, what DNA it 155 00:09:55,559 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 2: will even accept to enter into the data bank, like 156 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 2: the data bank there in Arizona Crime Stories. 157 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: With Nancy Grace. 158 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 2: Joining me right now. Is a DNA specialist. It is 159 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 2: Susanna Ryan out of Redlands, California, Lab director of forensic 160 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 2: DNA Analyst at Pure Gold Forensics. She is a forensic 161 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 2: DNA consultant at Ryan Forensics. Twenty five years experience in 162 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 2: forensic DNA and soerology. Susannah Thank you for being with us. 163 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 2: Explain what we are talking about right now? How difficult 164 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 2: that the high standard there is to get DNA into 165 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 2: the data Bank CODIS as opposed to the Arizona Data Bank, 166 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 2: which I believe is much more likely to yield a hit. 167 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 7: Right, So there definitely are different guys lines and it's 168 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 7: much more stringent, much more difficult to get a profile 169 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 7: into the National DNA database. You have to you might 170 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 7: be able to get a partial profile in, but it 171 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 7: has to have a certain number of what we call 172 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 7: the core codus low sie, So you have to have 173 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 7: results at least eight of those original thirteen low si. 174 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 7: It can't be too much of a mixture. 175 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:27,079 Speaker 2: A certain number of core codis what yeah, low si 176 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 2: or locations. 177 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 7: So we used to look at thirteen. That was our 178 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 7: goal for getting a profile into CODIS. That has since 179 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 7: been extended to twenty LOWSI or locations. And the reason 180 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 7: for that is we have so many profiles in the 181 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 7: database we needed to start looking at more locations to 182 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 7: make the rarity of the profile even greater, because we 183 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 7: don't want to get a false hit or an adventitious match. 184 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 2: Susannah, Yeah, when you were saying Losai, and you're talking 185 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 2: about locations you need. Once it's fourteen, now it's twenty. 186 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 2: I'm in my mind comparing this to hits on a fingerprint, 187 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 2: where you have let's just say ten points of identic 188 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 2: in identical nature, you only need a certain number for 189 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 2: it to be a match. Is that what you're calling 190 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 2: a low sign. 191 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 7: Yeah, that's a fairly good comparison. It's basically different areas 192 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 7: on the DNA molecule. We are not testing the whole molecule. 193 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 7: We're picking certain areas that are known to vary greatly 194 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 7: between people. So that way we can differentiate between people 195 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 7: by just looking at these particular areas. We don't have 196 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 7: to try to test the entire DNA molecule. 197 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 2: Okay, So I'm trying to get a layperson's understanding of 198 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 2: what you're saying. So you have to have now twenty 199 00:12:55,679 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 2: low side twenty eccentricities about the DNA to make it 200 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 2: different and easily identifiable. 201 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 7: So that's the goal. If you had a single source profile, 202 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 7: you had a reference sample, you are required to have 203 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 7: all twenty of those areas to put it into CODIS. 204 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 7: If you're talking about a forensic sample, the requirements are 205 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 7: not as strict. You can have less than that, but 206 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 7: you still have to have a certain number of locations 207 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 7: or this information, and it has to meet what we 208 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 7: call a rarity index. It has to be more rare 209 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 7: than what the size of the database is, because if 210 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 7: it's not, you could have a false hit. It could 211 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 7: match against someone that is in the database but is 212 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 7: not actually your perpetrator. And that's specifically the national database. 213 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 7: So you're correct that the Arizona database that is going 214 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 7: to have less stringent requirements because they are less people 215 00:13:58,480 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 7: in the database. 216 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 2: So tell me what is in the az database that 217 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 2: is not allowed in the national database. 218 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 7: Well, we have arrestees in the in the Arizona database. 219 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 7: Not all states allow for arrestees to be entered into 220 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 7: the database. Now, this would be particular individuals arrested of 221 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 7: a very particular felonies. They'll be legislation defining, you know, 222 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 7: who is eligible for upload into the Arizona database. You 223 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 7: could have forensic unknowns. 224 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 2: Like who who gets you on. 225 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 7: So I don't know the specific requirements for the state 226 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 7: of Arizona, but it's going to be it's it's not 227 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 7: going to be someone that's you know, picked up for 228 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 7: some misdemeanor offense. It's going to be particular violent felony 229 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 7: offenses that a person who has simply been arrested for 230 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 7: this crime and not yet convicted, their profile can go 231 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 7: into that Arizona database. Another thing that Arizona has that 232 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 7: not very many states have is the ability to do 233 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 7: familials searching. And so sometimes when people hear that, they think, oh, 234 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 7: we're talking about genetic genealogy, but this is totally different. 235 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 7: This is the ability to search the Arizona database for 236 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 7: a near match. So we've already searched, we know that 237 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 7: we don't have a hit on this DNA profile, but 238 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 7: let's look for someone who is closely related, maybe a 239 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 7: brother or a father. And Arizona is one of only 240 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 7: twelve or thirteen states that allow for that sort of searching. 241 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 7: So I hope that they do conduct that. That's not 242 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 7: something that's automatically done. That's something that has to be requested. 243 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 7: So hopefully they will have that conducted because that opens 244 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 7: up the database for a whole new category of individuals. 245 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 2: Guys, you're hearing Susanna Ryan speaking about her line of 246 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 2: expertise d NA. Another question, we now know the FBI 247 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 2: has tentacles into Mexico. Is there an international DNA database, Susannah. 248 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 7: There is the Interpol database, so that is I think 249 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 7: it's over eighty countries that are part of Interpol where 250 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 7: they will upload qualifying DNA profiles, mostly you know, unsolved 251 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 7: cases like this or other felony cases. And I believe 252 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 7: they are over two hundred and eighty thousand profiles in 253 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 7: the Interpol database. Mexico does participate in that program. 254 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: Wait, how many did you just say? 255 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 7: Over two hundred and eighty thousand profiles? 256 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 2: Wow, in the Interpol database and that includes Mexico. 257 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 7: It does. Now, I will say that Mexico in general, 258 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 7: you know, they do have a DNA database, but it's 259 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 7: not not on the same level as our CODAS Combined 260 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 7: DNA index System database. It A lot of what they're 261 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 7: focusing on in Mexico is identifying missing persons or you know, 262 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 7: if they have unidentified remains. That's a lot more of 263 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 7: their focus than the criminal investigative side. And it's not 264 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 7: all connected at a national level at this point. 265 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 2: Wow. Okay, and very quickly, I want to talk to 266 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 2: you about how DNA is obtained at a scene, for instance, 267 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 2: through UV lighting causing the DNA, Well, does it cause 268 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 2: a DNA to fluoress? But when you look at DNA 269 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 2: left on a scene, it fluoresces. And you need near 270 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 2: dark or complete dark where you could use goggles that 271 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 2: are tinted red, yellow or orange to block out light. 272 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 2: How does that work? 273 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 7: Right? So, what you're referring to is sometimes we use 274 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 7: something called an alternate light source, and that helps us 275 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 7: identify things like saliva. Those sort of body fluids will fluoresce. Unfortunately, 276 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 7: other type of DNA, especially touch or skin cell DNA, 277 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 7: does not fluoress. I wish it did. I wish there 278 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 7: was a way for us to be able to just 279 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 7: see it by some invention like that. But what we 280 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 7: have to do is use our best educated guests as 281 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 7: to what would have been contacted. Where did this person 282 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 7: have to touch to enter the house? For example, is 283 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 7: there anything moved in the home that it looks like 284 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 7: this person contacted? And I would imagine that they are 285 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 7: focusing on items like that, especially as you pointed out, 286 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 7: with him touching this perpetrator, he's got a flashlight in 287 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 7: his mouth that he's moving around that he's probably touching. 288 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 7: So even though he's wearing gloves. That does not mean 289 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 7: he's not transferring his DNA into that house. 290 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: And saliva is so DNA rich. He touches it multiple times. 291 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 2: He touches the holster of the gun multiple times. Then 292 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 2: he reaches out to the doorknob. And we were discussing earlier, Susannah, 293 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 2: how the home was found with the front door unlocked 294 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 2: and all the lights on in the front of the house, 295 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 2: which is not Nancy Guthrie's routine. He turned on the 296 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 2: light switch. He probably turned on the light switch in 297 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 2: Nancy's room or touched her doorknob, which would be an 298 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 2: excellent conduit for saliva DNA. It just takes a trace amount. 299 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 2: So I guess you're saying that with certain DNA such 300 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 2: as saliva sperm you're in, you would use the ultnate 301 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,719 Speaker 2: light source. But for touch DNA it does not fluoresce, 302 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 2: so you would swab the likely suspects the doorknob, light switch, furniture, 303 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 2: something that's been moved in the home. Do I have 304 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 2: it so far? Yes? Yes, Speaking of the gun. Straight 305 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 2: out to Andrew black joining us, former special Agent in 306 00:19:55,000 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 2: charge of the Tucson FBI office, Let's talk about the 307 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 2: gun oh oh wait, I've got to show you a picture. 308 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 2: Hold on. Apparently our purp wears a pinky ring. Take 309 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 2: a look at this. We've zoomed in on there you go. 310 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 2: Look at that, Andrew Black, that's his right hand. I 311 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 2: have analyzed and analyzed and got multiple other people to analyze. 312 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 2: Was it his ring finger? But it appears to be. 313 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: Pinky Look at that very stylish. 314 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 2: Look at the shape of that. Hey, move out just 315 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: a little bit more. Do you guys agree this is 316 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 2: the pinky? At first I thought it would be the 317 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 2: ring finger. Move out a little bit more. Move out 318 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 2: a little bit more so we can see the full hand. Yeah, okay, 319 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 2: what do you think, Andrew. 320 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 3: That's a tough one for me. If they're saying it's 321 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 3: on the pinky, then it is a pinky ring. And 322 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 3: he has some sort of style or flair. Os doesn't 323 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 3: have that same flare in his approach to emitting a 324 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 3: home invasion. As we saw in the video that we're 325 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 3: looking at right now. The gun that appears to be 326 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 3: a semi automatic weapon. As you can see the handle, 327 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 3: there's no hammer, it's and it looks like there's a 328 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 3: magazine at the end of it. The whole star is 329 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 3: really strange. I haven't seen one like that that appears 330 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 3: to be a revolver, and you can see there's a 331 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 3: snap going over where the hammer would be on a revolver. 332 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 3: So it's a really unusual and unprofessional method for carrying 333 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,360 Speaker 3: really any type of weapon in front of your grind 334 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 3: like this, But placing a semiotic weapon which could slide 335 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 3: out quite easily in a revolver holster is unprofessional, to 336 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 3: say the least, and awkward. 337 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 2: Could you very slowly go through again what you said 338 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 2: For those listenings that are not gun aficionados. You started 339 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 2: with saying it is a revolver host holster. Now please 340 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 2: explain your raisoning. 341 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 3: Okay, there are two basic handguns. There's a revolver which 342 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 3: has a cylinder, and each time the trigger is pulled 343 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 3: or squeezed, the cylinder turns, the hammer comes back, and 344 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 3: then it hits the back of the casing of the 345 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 3: chambered round in the cylinder. A semi automatic pistol like 346 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 3: we see here, the firing mechanism is different. The rounds 347 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 3: of ammunition are not in a cylinder, they're in the 348 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 3: handle of the gun, in what it's called a magazine. 349 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 3: That's where you load the rounds of ammunition and rather 350 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 3: than an exposed hammer coming back typically very typically, as 351 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 3: some automatic pistol will not have a visible hammer. There 352 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 3: are certain models, but this is not one of them. 353 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 3: As you can see, it's flat and so this is 354 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 3: a weapon. You can see ei there's a black strap 355 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 3: that should be over the revolver if this was a 356 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 3: revolver securing the hammer. Here we have a semi automatic 357 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 3: pistol loosely sticking into this revolver holster and it's not 358 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 3: what it was intended for. Doesn't mean it can't work. 359 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 3: It's working here, but it's an awkward way to carry 360 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 3: a weapon. 361 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 2: So this is a semi automatic weapon. Now what more 362 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 2: can you tell about the gun? Many people think it's 363 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 2: a Walter. 364 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard that. I've heard that. Because of the 365 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 3: graininess of the picture, I don't want to commit to 366 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 3: saying it's one model over another. And there are various 367 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 3: models of Walter, but that's the popular belief Walter or 368 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 3: a similar type which is a smaller type of handgun, 369 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 3: easily concealable. That's what James Bond carries. One version of 370 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 3: the gun that he carries, and yeah, definitely some automatic. 371 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 3: Can't say for sure myself that it is a Walter, 372 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 3: but it resembles one, and this helps, and that may 373 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 3: be why one of the leads we've heard about is 374 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 3: the purchase of Walter weapons at gun stores in the area. 375 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 3: So this is a positive lead to follow up on, 376 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 3: of course, along with the unusual holster he's using. 377 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 2: Andrew Black, what did you say about James Bond? 378 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:31,199 Speaker 3: James Bond carried a Walter P similar type of weapon 379 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 3: in the movies, and that's the manufacturer apparently of this 380 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 3: weapon or what experts are saying. I can't identify it 381 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 3: for sure, but that's what I've read from what's being 382 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 3: reported on a type of weapons suspected of. 383 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 2: I cannot identify it either. Many people have speculated it 384 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 2: is a Walter. To Scott Iiker, what do you believe 385 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 2: the FBI can do with this or law enforcement to 386 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 2: identify the type of gun, Because I believe guns are 387 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 2: like cars. And I've worked with the car Theft division 388 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:12,719 Speaker 2: at APD Atlanta Police Department, and they're brilliant. They can 389 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 2: look at a car coming a block away and go, oh, yeah, 390 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 2: that's a nineteen ninety five Toyota camery. How do you 391 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 2: know that because they do it all day long. Like 392 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 2: I can look at a police report and say, oh, 393 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 2: this is aggravated assault, this is kidnapping, this is blah 394 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 2: blah blah blah blah. That's what you can prove from 395 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 2: this one page of a police report. They can look 396 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 2: at a car and tell me what the modeling year is. 397 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 2: There are people that can look at a gun and 398 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 2: do pretty much the same. 399 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 5: Yes, there's experts all around the world that are very 400 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 5: good at visually identifying a weapon. Now, as Andrews said, 401 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 5: this is graining the photo. We don't see the whole 402 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 5: weapon itself. So I mean I suggest that a lot 403 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 5: of people are just making their best estimate of our 404 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 5: guests with what this is. But we don't know for sure. 405 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 3: Obviously. 406 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 5: You know, the gun store visits are helpful and hopefully 407 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,679 Speaker 5: we can maybe narrow down suspects by going to the 408 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 5: gun stores and hopefully find someone that purchased that type 409 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 5: of semi automatic weapon. We've got a lot of things 410 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 5: to go on, and it's a lot of work to 411 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 5: go to all the gun stores and all the walmarts 412 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 5: because we're looking for who bought the people that bought 413 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 5: the type of hulster. I agree with Andrew in the 414 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 5: aspect that holster is not made for that gun, and 415 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 5: that that probably will allow that gun to very easily 416 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 5: slip out of that pulster. 417 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 2: Back to Dave mac joining US Crime Stories investigative reporter. 418 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 2: Now another missive has been received by Harvey Levin Everett 419 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 2: t TMZ. It's much more threatening. What do we know 420 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 2: about the latest ransom note? 421 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 6: Well, Harvey Levin and his team at TMZ say this 422 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 6: particular new ransom note is highly sophisticated, involving a different 423 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 6: cryptocurrency than bitcoin. We know that was the main play earlier, 424 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 6: was that they wanted it and paid out in bitcoin 425 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 6: the ransom er did. Now TMZ obtains this new note 426 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 6: in saying it's highly sophisticated. I'm not really sure what 427 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 6: that means, except that the demand involving cryptocurrency other than bitcoin, 428 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 6: is still for about the same amount, around six million dollars. 429 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 6: The email in demanding this dollar amount to a different 430 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 6: account number two than had been previously received by TMZ. 431 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 6: And there's a side note to all of this, Nancy. 432 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 6: The email graphically describes the consequences of not paying up, 433 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 6: of not following through with this ransom demand. I don't 434 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 6: know again exactly what it is, but they're saying very 435 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 6: specific graphic consequences. Also, the FBI is stepping up and 436 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 6: they're saying, if you decide you want to try to 437 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 6: pull off a fake ransom on the family, you will 438 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 6: be going to prison for a long, long time. They're 439 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 6: adding this to the mix because they're fed up with 440 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 6: all of the side tracks and chasing rabbits. But again 441 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 6: you mentioned it. Another missive sent to TMZ, this one 442 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 6: different than had been previously received. 443 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace. 444 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 2: Andrew Black. Let's talk about bitcoin alternatives. You've got let's 445 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 2: see ethereum eth. You've got light Coin ltc x RP 446 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 2: for crossing border settlements. You've got binance, B and b Cardano, 447 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 2: so many bitcoin alternatives. What do you make of the 448 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 2: most recent ransom note demanding an alternative to bitcoin same 449 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 2: amount six mil? 450 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 3: You know, I think I don't give a lot of 451 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 3: credibility to these ransom demands. They take up a lot 452 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 3: of energy on law enforcement, but you have to follow 453 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 3: up on them, so you know, in my opinion, is 454 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 3: another opportunist and another crime of opportunity. Yet law enforcement 455 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 3: has to follow up on this because you know it's 456 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 3: a lead and if God forbid, this person does know 457 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 3: something about who's holding Nancy or where she is and 458 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 3: you neglect it, you know you can't go back. So 459 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 3: as the leads come in, you prioritize them in the 460 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 3: command center. You have a team that does that, and 461 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 3: then you follow those leads where they take you back. 462 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 2: Dude, Josh Colesrue joining US foreign federal prosecutor now criminal 463 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 2: defense attorney in this jurisdiction Arizona. Question to you regarding 464 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 2: false Well, any ransom note is a crime, but false 465 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 2: ransom notes are also a crime. Explain the legal theory 466 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 2: and the penalties behind a false and ransom note. We 467 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 2: already know Kalela has been charged under eighteen USC. Eight 468 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 2: seventy five. So he's looking at time in the slammer 469 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 2: for a fake ransom note. 470 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 8: Yeah, Derek Kollela from San Diego. I was charged with 471 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 8: two counts submitting a fake ransom note to Nancy sorry 472 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 8: to Savannah Guthrie, and he faces up to twenty years 473 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 8: in prison for those And I was really happy that 474 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 8: the US attorney here, Uh, you know, threw the book 475 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 8: at them. You know, they needed to set an example 476 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 8: because these types of things can really derail an investigation, 477 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 8: takes time and resources away from investigating real leads. And 478 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 8: here with this new ransom note, you know what I 479 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 8: want to know is, you know what indicators are there 480 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 8: that they were they have new information that has not 481 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 8: been released to the public, or are there personal anecdotes 482 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 8: that could be provided by Nancy Guthrie herself to show 483 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 8: that she's still alive. You know, we just don't have 484 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 8: any of that information here, and you know, I have 485 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 8: to agree with my colleagues that I'm very skeptical at 486 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 8: this point in time that this is a legitimate ransom note. 487 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: Scott iikar Way new a ransom note. 488 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 5: I mean, we've been told that it was very graphic 489 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 5: on what's going to happen to Nancy if they don't pay. 490 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 5: But why would you have to put that into the 491 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 5: ransom note. I mean, Savannah and the family have already 492 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 5: said we will pay, so that would give at least 493 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 5: to me another indication that this is another fake ransom. 494 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 2: If you know or think you know anything about the 495 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 2: disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, please dial toll free eight hundred 496 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 2: two two five five three two four eight hundred two 497 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 2: two five five three two four, or if you wish 498 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 2: to remain anonymous five two zero eight eight two seven 499 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 2: four sixty three five two zero eight eight two seven 500 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 2: four six three. There is a two hundred thousand dollars 501 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 2: reward for information leading to Nancy Guthrie. That's nearly a 502 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 2: quarter of a million dollars. Thank you to our guest tonight, 503 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 2: but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Gray 504 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 2: signing off, I'll see tomorrow night, and until then, good night. 505 00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 2: For it. 506 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 6: To be active. 507 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 3: S