WEBVTT - Rep. Brendan Boyle & Thomas Zimmer 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:04.200 Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.160 where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:11.400 today's best minds. We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:15.000 we don't have a great show for you. Congressman Brendan 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:18.680 Boyle joins us to talk about the incoming dysfunction in 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:22.400 the next Congress, the one hundred and nineteenth Congress. But 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:27.640 first we'll talk to historian and Democracy Americana newsletter author 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:31.800 Thomas Zimmer about how we prepare for Project twenty twenty 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:33.720 five's assault on the America we know. 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:37.440 Welcome back to Fast Politics. 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:38.760 Thomas, Well, thank you for having me on. 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:41.639 Last time we talked, we talked about Project twenty twenty five. 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:42.520 Y're an academic. 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:47.960 You have been writing about this endlessly so smartly. I 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:51.839 am a fan and also have tried really hard to 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:55.040 put the focus on some of the stuff you're doing 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:58.840 because it's so important. So I want you to talk 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:02.560 to us about what you're doing with this and where 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:06.200 you are in the trajectory of your life and also 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:10.759 of this Project twenty twenty five coming into fushion. 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:13.759 Yeah, I mean, I'm by a profession, I'm a historian, 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:17.120 I'm at Georgetown University, and I work on the relationship 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.800 between mainstream conservatism and the radical right and since sort 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:23.080 of the nineteen forties or so, and I guess, you know, 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:26.480 over the past almost ten years now, there's no way 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:29.080 if you're working on this as a historian, there's just 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:31.680 no way that you're not talking about Trump and trump 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:33.360 Ism and how do you get to that point? And 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:36.000 so for me, over the past few years, I've tried 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:38.720 to sort of grapple with, you know, these more radical 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.760 forces within the broaders of right wing coalition within the 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:44.360 Republican Party and why they have come to dominate the 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:47.000 Republican Party and the American right more broadly, why they 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:50.000 are so clearly in charge over there. They have always 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.960 been there, This is not entirely new, but these more radical, 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:57.160 really extreme factions and ideas they have moved so clearly 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.560 to the power centers of conservatism. They have taken over 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:02.040 the republic Party and they are in charge. And now 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:04.520 they are back in power, or not quite yet, but 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:06.520 there will be. And I think, to me, this is 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:10.200 what sort drew me to paying attention to Project twenty 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:13.239 twenty five. So this of big landing operation on the 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:15.800 right that is spearheaded by Heritage, because it seemed to 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:20.160 me this was really capturing these radical ideas on the 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:24.320 right and how much they had sort of managed to 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:27.200 take over what you know, maybe twenty years, thirty years, 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:30.480 forty years ago was more of mainstream conservatism, not quite 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:33.320 so radical. That's what made Project twenty twenty five interesting 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:35.240 to me. That's what we always talked about, right, So 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:37.240 if you look at these plans, right, this is the 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:40.880 clearest window that we have ever had into what their 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.600 vision is for American society, what they want to do 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:46.880 to America and with America. And I think what we're 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.280 seeing now and there was never any doubt about this 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:51.760 that this is going to play a big role in 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:55.200 what the incoming Trump and administration wants to do. 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:56.720 Yeah, exactly. 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:00.120 Here's the difference between John and Roberts and Clarence tom 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:02.200 Right or Sam Alito. 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:02.480 Right. 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:07.359 One, you have radical, radical, radical, you know stuff that 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:11.799 you wouldn't you know Fox News, fever dreams, the rantings 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:16.760 of Rush Limbaugh, and the other you have that ethos, 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:21.560 but distilled in a much more genteel package. Project twenty 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.600 twenty five sort of takes the mask off I would say. 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:26.680 It does, and it does not, because it still comes 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:29.480 in a way, it still comes packaged as all these people, right, 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:32.520 they're all still they dress like you would expect like 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:36.360 a very respectable conservative to dress, and they it's the 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:37.240 Heritage Foundation. 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:37.680 It's not. 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:39.520 You know, they will say, oh, this is not some 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:43.880 fringe right wing whatever online blog. No, it's the Heritage Foundation, 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:46.320 which has been since the seventies really one of the 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:50.000 nerve centers of conservatism. But yeah, if you actually look 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:52.800 beyond just the packaging and you look at what they 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:56.000 are saying, they could not possibly be clearer about the 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:58.200 fact that they are just simply not on board with 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:03.600 this idea of America being or becoming increasingly becoming an egalitarian, 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:07.320 pluralistic kind of democratic society. They don't want that, right. 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:10.360 They think that is actually not just America changing. They 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.600 think that is America being destroyed. And so they have 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:17.080 outlined very clearly what they think needs to be done 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:21.080 in response to this quote unquote threat of egalitarian democratic pluralism, 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:24.480 and that is kind of takeover government. They present it 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:27.320 not as conservatism. They are very explicit about this is 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:30.640 not a conservative project. This is a counter revolutionary project. 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:32.800 I think that shift is really really important because for 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:35.320 the people behind Project twenty twenty five, and some of 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:38.839 them again are now going to hold some pretty influential 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:41.560 positions in the next White House in the Trump administration, 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:45.040 they think there is nothing left to conserve. They think 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:48.440 the radical left revolution has already happened. The radical left 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:52.800 has already taken over all these institutions, including these government institutions, 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:56.320 and so you can't do conservatism anymore. You have to 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:58.560 do counter revolution. And that is really kind of the 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:02.320 project that they are outlining here, how to stage this 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:07.599 comprehensive counter revolution takeover of American government in order to 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:11.160 transform it into an instrument with which they can impose 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:14.719 their vision for America against the majority of the American 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:16.799 people onto the entire country. 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:21.479 Yeah, so explain to us what we're seeing, like the 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:27.000 rest of announcement Toledomb. That seems like the clearest indication 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:29.279 so far the Project twenty twenty five is Trump. 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.000 So I'll say two things about this. I wouldn't even 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:34.799 say Project twenty twenty five is Trump. I would say 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:38.400 Trump Project twenty twenty five and all these other factions 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:40.360 on the right, because there are other factions on the 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.720 right that are kind of feuding with the Heritage people. Right, 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:47.560 there's the America First Policy Institute, there's the Trump campaign people. 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:50.240 They're not all the same and there are rivalries there, 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:52.880 but what they all share, right, what they all share 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.240 and what is expressed in Project twenty twenty five is 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.599 this more radical consensus on the right that we need 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.520 this kind of more radical or quote unquote counter revolution. 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:01.800 Right. 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:04.120 And this guy Russell vadd And I know you've written 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:06.400 about this guy, and I'm I've been working on some 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:08.919 of a deep dive into his ideology that will probably 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:11.360 out by the time this conversation comes up. He is 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:13.760 a key figure in this because he's going to be 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:16.839 the director of the Office of Management and Budget or 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:18.640 and B, just like he was at the end of 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:21.479 the first Trump administration. So why is it worth paying 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.040 attention to this? This is not I'm assuming most of 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:26.880 the people listening to us think Office of Management and Budget. 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:29.599 That doesn't sound like, you know, the most important position, 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:32.320 But he really is a He's one of the key figures, 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:34.440 not just any contributor. He is one of the key 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.800 architects behind Project twenty twenty five. And he's also a 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:41.560 truly radical figure. He's a self identifying Christian nationalist, not 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.760 at all on board with like a pluralistic democratic society, 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.239 not at all. No, and he demands what he calls 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:52.200 He fancies himself like an intellectual leader. What makes him 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:54.599 kind of an interesting subject, you know, for someone like 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:56.320 me he was trying to understand what's going on on 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:59.559 the right. He's interesting because he fancies himself an intellectual leader. 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.360 He will spell it out right, he will write down 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:04.560 what he thinks the problem in America is and what 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:07.760 needs to be done. And he calls it radical constitutionalism. 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:10.480 And that is precisely this idea that says, look, well, 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:13.520 don't even live in a constitutional order anymore, because the 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:16.520 radical left has already destroyed it. And so in response 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:18.640 to that, he calls for this again. He calls it 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:23.400 radical constitutionalism, which basically amounts to you destroy the constitution 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:25.640 in order to save it. And you do that because 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:27.960 you can do this now. Because he really believes Trump 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:31.720 is a kind of God sent chosen figure to lead 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:34.720 this kind of counter revolution. So he really he combines 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:37.640 sort of this kind of radical ideology with a great 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:39.920 deal of competence. And this is really important. I think 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.920 because as we're all kind of grappling with how much 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:44.760 of what they want to do are they going to 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:47.640 be able to actually do, actually able to be implemented, right, 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:50.680 Because I mean in the first Trump administration, there was 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:54.800 this thing, you know, it was of malevolence tempered by incompetence, right. 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.160 It was sort of a famous saying in the early 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:01.239 Trump administration, and that was definitely true. Right, these malevolent people, 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:03.920 they just didn't know what they were doing. And if 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:07.160 you look at some denomination chaos and the Mattgates story 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:09.600 and Pete hex seven, all these people, it's very easy 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:12.040 to come to the conclusion that this is just that 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:15.640 all over again. These people are obviously incompetent, they don't 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:17.920 know what they're doing. But then on the other end 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:20.520 of the spectrum, you have someone like Russell Vadd who 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:23.280 has worked in and around government for twenty years at 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:26.679 every level, like starting as like a low level aid, 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:30.040 a congressional aid, and making his way through all these 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:34.320 different stages and institutions, and he really understands government like 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:36.760 few other people. He knows what he's doing, and he 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:40.400 combines that with sort of a very radical ideology. And 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:42.920 so I think that is, you know, again, as we 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.400 are trying to calibrate our expectations, where on the scale 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:50.000 of you know, incompetence to sort of malevolence, are we 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:52.560 going to land with this, Someone like Russell vadd is 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:55.120 sort of, I think a reminder that you know, this 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.240 is not just going to be a bunch of incompetent duphesis. 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.480 There will be quite few of them also, but there 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:03.920 will also be the Russell Vaultz, and I think they 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:05.920 will provide the kind of counterweight to that. 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:12.600 Yeah, it is really so important to realize, Like, in 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:15.640 my mind, a lot of this stuff in Project twenty 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:19.440 twenty five. The reason why it was so unpopular when 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.000 when people started googling about it and Trump had to 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:26.280 disavow it, which was, by the way, I love that 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:30.120 all of his disavowing stuff, he was involved and worked right. 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:33.040 He was like I mean, like voters really did believe. 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:34.800 He was like, yeah, we're going to kick abortion back 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:35.520 to the States. 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:38.359 He overturned Robbie Wade. 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.600 And then they're like right, Like, I just love that. 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:44.839 At every point he was like yeah, yeah, this is 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.680 what we're going to do, and people were like yeah, okay. 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:50.000 So he's like I know nothing about Project twenty twenty five, 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:52.280 and voters are like, Okay, he says he knows nothing, 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:54.680 and there are things in there that really run counter 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:57.800 to trump Ism, and I'm hoping you could talk about, like, 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:02.319 for example, things like they're war on pornography, right, because 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.400 like he went on all these bro podcasts and he. 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:06.680 Was like, I'm one of you. 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:10.040 We're all gonna have beers like talk to me about 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:13.880 like this is Christian nationalism. And sooner or later they 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:15.360 come for the pornography. 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:18.520 Yes, and they come for the pornography, not just because 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:22.520 they are so religiously you know, secat whatever. Yes, yes, no, 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:25.959 but also because throughout if you read, you know, they 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:29.319 put out there's a thousand page policy agenda thing. They 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:31.280 call it a mandate for leadership. And if you look 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:34.120 at whenever you know, they talk about pornography, they're not 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:38.000 actually talking about pornography or just pornography. They try to 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:43.520 link pornography to kind of sexual deviancy, and that's dangerous 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.280 and that's trans people that that's all the same thing 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:49.160 for them, right, So when they say we're banning pornography, 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:51.880 what they actually talk about is we're going to ban 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:57.280 everything and everyone who dares to deviate from our st 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:01.520 you know, very very sort of conservative Christian understanding of 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:05.599 sexuality and gender. And so it's not actually about pornography 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:09.959 so much. It's more about imposing this very very reactionary 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:13.360 Christian understanding of what the societal order should be. And 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:15.760 I think that is I mean, look, this is Trump's 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:19.079 kind of superpower, right when he goes on Joe Rogan 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.720 or whatever, and he will just riff. And it is 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:24.760 kind of true that Trump doesn't care whether or not 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.520 pornography will be banned, Right, that's not his thing. 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:29.640 Well, details are not his thing. 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:33.120 No, he doesn't hold specific policy positions so much. Right, 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:37.480 it's the same with abortion bands. Trump doesn't care is 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:39.360 it going to be a six week ban, a ten 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:41.959 week ban. He doesn't want to think about that kind 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.320 of stuff. Too many people mistake that to mean Trump 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:50.040 actually doesn't have ideological convictions or he will never implement 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.440 this kind of radical stuff because he doesn't really believe it. 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.440 But the thing is Trump does have a very clear 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:57.920 ideological vision, at least in the sense that he has 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:02.079 a very clear vision of how power should be distributed 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.079 in society. He has a very clear understanding of who 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:07.720 should be at the top in society and who should 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:10.920 be the like who should be people like him, rich 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:15.199 white men, powerful men. You truly believe that they should 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:19.480 be in a position to, you know, exert power over everyone. 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:23.199 They want to exert power over, especially women, right, and 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:25.600 they should be in charge. I agree. That's not the 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:29.080 same as like a fully fleshed out ideological He's not 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:31.760 going to sit down and write his manifesto, right, clearly not. 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.640 He's too lazy for that anyway. But that doesn't mean 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:38.679 there isn't an underlying vision of how society should be ordered, 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:41.240 of how society should be structured, of how power should 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:44.080 be distributed in society. And he has a very clear 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:46.600 vision of that. And so no, he doesn't care about 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:49.720 specifically how you're going to set up an abortion band. 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:53.079 But what he very much clearly cares about is, you know, 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:56.240 all the radical feminists and all the loud women, and 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:58.400 all the women who are now like not gonna let 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:00.720 him touch them anymore. Whatever, They need to be put 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:03.200 back in their place, right, they need to be reminded, No, 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:05.840 this is a society in which people like me Donald 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:09.679 Trump can do as they please, and they can exert 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.360 power as they please, and that is a very clear 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:16.280 ideological understanding of how society should work. And so yeah, 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:18.920 he can go on Rogan and say pornography don't care, 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:22.480 abortion band don't care. And then people hear this and think, oh, 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.559 he's not going to implement this radical stuff. But that's 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:30.400 I think a categorical misunderstanding. He will implement things that 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:34.640 will again restore, or entrench or re entrench the kind 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:38.000 of societal order in which he truly believes, and that 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.880 is where he meets these kinds of people like Russell 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.920 Vaud and Kevin Roberts, the president of the Heritage Foundation, 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:48.560 because they also share this vision of what is fundamentally white, 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:50.160 patriarchal Christian dominance. 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:54.480 So what I think is very interesting here is that 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:59.280 it's almost as if these two people Donald Trump and MAGA, 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:03.360 because Donald Trump bis MAGA and this Project twenty twenty 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:07.559 five crew, which is really sort of different ideological bent. 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:10.400 It's a marriage of convenience, is that right? 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.560 Yeah? Absolutely, they meet on the basis of I think 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:17.360 two things. One is they share this understanding that something 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:20.120 has gotten out of control in America. The Woks are 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:24.240 running wild and the feminists and the crazy identity activists 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:26.040 and yeah, those are not my terms. This is the 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.080 kind of how they talk, right, and something has this 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:31.800 is not right, and we need to restore order. And 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:34.280 by order they mean a kind of white Christian patriarchal 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:37.000 dominance in all spheres of life. That's not just politics. 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.280 That's also the family and the public square and the 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:42.720 workplace and schools and all these places, right, all spheres 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:45.000 of life. That's why they come together. And they also 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.320 share again, they share an enemy. They are convinced that 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.600 it's time for retribution and revenge and that you have 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:55.840 a more traditional conservative politics just hasn't gotten the job done. 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:59.160 They share this good disdain. Or they talk about it 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:02.560 as the republic like an establishment and the conservative establishment, 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:04.760 and they want nothing to do with that anymore. They 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:07.600 think it's time for much more radical measures. And that's 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:09.560 where they sort of come together, right, I mean Trump, 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:12.160 It is true like Trump is not in some way. Right, 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:14.880 Trump is sort of a not an ideal vessel for 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:17.520 the kind of radical project that is outlined in Project 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:19.800 twenty twenty five, because he's not gonna sit down and 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.840 read a thousand page policy report, and he is erratic 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:25.480 and he is lazy. That's all true, right, That's that's 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:29.080 absolutely and you will always infuse chaos, that's absolutely true. 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:32.480 But then on the other hand, if you want something radical, 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:35.040 like you know, again the vision that is outlined here 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:37.160 in Project twenty twenty five, if you want that to 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:40.080 be implemented, you need a radical figure in the White 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:42.800 House who doesn't care about norms and doesn't care about 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:48.200 precedent and only cares about again retribution, revenge and imposing 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:50.560 his will on society. And that is Trump, right, And 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.000 that is what these people understand, people like again Kevin 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:55.640 Roberts and Russell Waud, that's what they see in Trump. 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.720 They don't care so much. They know and understand that 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:01.640 this is not someone who who has been a a 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.600 social conservative his whole life or a religious conservaive. Trump 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:07.680 has never been any of that. They understand this. But 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.480 they see him as someone who will come in, take 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:13.920 off the gloves, don't care about norms, don't care about precedents, 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:15.840 and implement this radical stuff. 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:16.000 Right. 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:19.760 He will not shy away from being radical and doing 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:21.800 the kind of radical stuff that they think is now 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:26.800 a sort of high time to move beyond conservatism. Move 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.520 beyond traditional republicanism and move to something much more radical. 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:32.080 And that's what they see in Trump. And I think 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:33.960 they got that right in January. 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:35.600 What's the thing that worris you the most? 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:38.200 Yeah, what I think is really coming and coming right 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:40.320 away is going to be the mass deportation stuff. This 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.440 is also another of you know, another example for how 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:47.080 Trump maga Trump campaign Project twenty twenty five, for how 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:50.880 that all is not one thing but very much complimentary. 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:54.080 That was Trump's number one promise throughout the campaign. That 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:56.680 was his promise, We're going to do this mass deportation thing. 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:58.880 And then you look at someone like Russell Vatt, who 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:01.480 was in charge of one of the big planks of 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:03.520 Project twenty twenty five. They call it the one hundred 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:05.959 and eighty day Playbook, basically a kind of sort of 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:09.640 emergency immediate measures they want to take in the first 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:12.719 six months back in office. And when he talks about that, 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.760 what he really means is we have been drafting dozens, 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:19.840 probably hundreds of presidential executive orders that are going to 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.640 be ready on day one, and all sorts of regulations 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.280 ready on day one to be implemented on day one 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:29.720 by Donald Trump and much of that is centered around deportation, 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:32.080 mass deportation. Right when he there was sort of a 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.720 you know, a secret recording of a conversation that VOD 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:38.840 had in during the summer when he's of proudly because 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.639 this one hundred and eighty day playbook is secret, right, 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:43.639 that's the one part of Project twenty twenty five that 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:46.879 they have not made official. They want to keep that secret. 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:48.959 But he was recorded talking about it, and he very 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:52.280 explicitly said, look, we have these executive orders ready and 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:54.760 a lot of this is going to be about mass deportation, 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.840 and I think that's absolutely coming. Like again, that doesn't 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:02.280 mean they will succeed at deporting fifteen million, twenty million, 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:04.600 twenty five million people within a short span of time. 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.080 It's very unlikely that they will be able to do that, 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.119 and there will be chaos, but chaos doesn't mean moderation, 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:14.040 and chaos doesn't save anyone. Chaos causes harm. So it 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:16.920 will be extremely chaotic and it will be violent, and 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.680 they will absolutely go ahead and do this. And I think, again, 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:21.879 this is the big difference to twenty seventeen. When they 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:24.480 came in in twenty seventeen, there was no one who 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:28.119 had drafted dozens or even hundreds of executive orders. They 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:30.520 didn't even know how to draft an executive order, right, 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:33.320 that was the big deal with if people remembered the 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.760 so called Muslim band that Trump tried to institute early on, 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:40.480 like right away in his first presidency, the executive order 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:43.960 was so badly written, right, that was very easy for 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:46.240 courts to come in and say, okay, this is nonsense, 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:48.159 stop it. Right, But this is not going to be 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:50.440 the case this time. This guy Russell Vaught, he knows 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:52.640 how to draft an executive order, and he says he's 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.520 drafted them, and I see no reason to not believe him, right, 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:57.119 And so I think that that is the type of 0:18:57.200 --> 0:18:59.439 stuff that we are in for this time, and that 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:01.440 might be very different from last time. 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.200 Yeah, the one hottest take is I thought for sure 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:07.000 they would build camps, but now I think they'll use 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:07.960 private persons. 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:11.399 They may not have this faith in private persons, right. 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:13.480 No, I think there will be a lot of chaos, right, 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:16.639 And just drafting executive orders does not mean that this 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:18.440 is going to work. And I want to be maybe 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:21.320 say this towards the end of our conversation. If people 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:23.840 feel like, oh my God, that is also depressing. Have 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:26.399 we already lost? Is it even worth I don't now 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:29.760 pushing back or you know, Look, there is a vast 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:34.440 gulf between the aspirations of absolutist power from the Trump 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:38.480 people and the realities of a complex modern society and 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:42.240 modern state, because modern societies and modern states are enormously 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:48.000 complex beasts, and any any authoritarian regime, regardless of how competent, 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:51.280 will always struggle to make you know, modern society and 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.080 a modern state fall in line. And in that gulf, 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:56.760 in that gap is where the conflict will happen, and 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.200 there will be enormous conflict, and there will be potential 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:01.800 to push back and to fight back, and you know, 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:04.560 to oppose these things. It would just not be the 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:07.200 same as in twenty seventeen because we're looking at it completely. 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:10.240 We're looking at a radicalized right. We're looking at a 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:13.119 right that is better prepared than in twenty seventeen. And 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:15.240