1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: we don't have a great show for you. Congressman Brendan 5 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: Boyle joins us to talk about the incoming dysfunction in 6 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: the next Congress, the one hundred and nineteenth Congress. But 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: first we'll talk to historian and Democracy Americana newsletter author 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: Thomas Zimmer about how we prepare for Project twenty twenty 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: five's assault on the America we know. 10 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Fast Politics. 11 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 3: Thomas, Well, thank you for having me on. 12 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:41,639 Speaker 1: Last time we talked, we talked about Project twenty twenty five. 13 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 2: Y're an academic. 14 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: You have been writing about this endlessly so smartly. I 15 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: am a fan and also have tried really hard to 16 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: put the focus on some of the stuff you're doing 17 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: because it's so important. So I want you to talk 18 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: to us about what you're doing with this and where 19 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: you are in the trajectory of your life and also 20 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 1: of this Project twenty twenty five coming into fushion. 21 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I'm by a profession, I'm a historian, 22 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 3: I'm at Georgetown University, and I work on the relationship 23 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 3: between mainstream conservatism and the radical right and since sort 24 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 3: of the nineteen forties or so, and I guess, you know, 25 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 3: over the past almost ten years now, there's no way 26 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 3: if you're working on this as a historian, there's just 27 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 3: no way that you're not talking about Trump and trump 28 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 3: Ism and how do you get to that point? And 29 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 3: so for me, over the past few years, I've tried 30 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 3: to sort of grapple with, you know, these more radical 31 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 3: forces within the broaders of right wing coalition within the 32 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 3: Republican Party and why they have come to dominate the 33 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 3: Republican Party and the American right more broadly, why they 34 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 3: are so clearly in charge over there. They have always 35 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 3: been there, This is not entirely new, but these more radical, 36 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 3: really extreme factions and ideas they have moved so clearly 37 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 3: to the power centers of conservatism. They have taken over 38 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 3: the republic Party and they are in charge. And now 39 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 3: they are back in power, or not quite yet, but 40 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 3: there will be. And I think, to me, this is 41 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 3: what sort drew me to paying attention to Project twenty 42 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,239 Speaker 3: twenty five. So this of big landing operation on the 43 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 3: right that is spearheaded by Heritage, because it seemed to 44 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 3: me this was really capturing these radical ideas on the 45 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 3: right and how much they had sort of managed to 46 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 3: take over what you know, maybe twenty years, thirty years, 47 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 3: forty years ago was more of mainstream conservatism, not quite 48 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 3: so radical. That's what made Project twenty twenty five interesting 49 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 3: to me. That's what we always talked about, right, So 50 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 3: if you look at these plans, right, this is the 51 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 3: clearest window that we have ever had into what their 52 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 3: vision is for American society, what they want to do 53 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 3: to America and with America. And I think what we're 54 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 3: seeing now and there was never any doubt about this 55 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 3: that this is going to play a big role in 56 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 3: what the incoming Trump and administration wants to do. 57 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 58 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: Here's the difference between John and Roberts and Clarence tom 59 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: Right or Sam Alito. 60 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 3: Right. 61 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 1: One, you have radical, radical, radical, you know stuff that 62 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: you wouldn't you know Fox News, fever dreams, the rantings 63 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: of Rush Limbaugh, and the other you have that ethos, 64 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: but distilled in a much more genteel package. Project twenty 65 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: twenty five sort of takes the mask off I would say. 66 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 3: It does, and it does not, because it still comes 67 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 3: in a way, it still comes packaged as all these people, right, 68 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 3: they're all still they dress like you would expect like 69 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 3: a very respectable conservative to dress, and they it's the 70 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 3: Heritage Foundation. 71 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 4: It's not. 72 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 3: You know, they will say, oh, this is not some 73 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 3: fringe right wing whatever online blog. No, it's the Heritage Foundation, 74 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 3: which has been since the seventies really one of the 75 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 3: nerve centers of conservatism. But yeah, if you actually look 76 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 3: beyond just the packaging and you look at what they 77 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 3: are saying, they could not possibly be clearer about the 78 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 3: fact that they are just simply not on board with 79 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 3: this idea of America being or becoming increasingly becoming an egalitarian, 80 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 3: pluralistic kind of democratic society. They don't want that, right. 81 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 3: They think that is actually not just America changing. They 82 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 3: think that is America being destroyed. And so they have 83 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 3: outlined very clearly what they think needs to be done 84 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 3: in response to this quote unquote threat of egalitarian democratic pluralism, 85 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 3: and that is kind of takeover government. They present it 86 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 3: not as conservatism. They are very explicit about this is 87 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 3: not a conservative project. This is a counter revolutionary project. 88 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 3: I think that shift is really really important because for 89 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 3: the people behind Project twenty twenty five, and some of 90 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 3: them again are now going to hold some pretty influential 91 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 3: positions in the next White House in the Trump administration, 92 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 3: they think there is nothing left to conserve. They think 93 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 3: the radical left revolution has already happened. The radical left 94 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 3: has already taken over all these institutions, including these government institutions, 95 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 3: and so you can't do conservatism anymore. You have to 96 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 3: do counter revolution. And that is really kind of the 97 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 3: project that they are outlining here, how to stage this 98 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 3: comprehensive counter revolution takeover of American government in order to 99 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 3: transform it into an instrument with which they can impose 100 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 3: their vision for America against the majority of the American 101 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:16,799 Speaker 3: people onto the entire country. 102 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, so explain to us what we're seeing, like the 103 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: rest of announcement Toledomb. That seems like the clearest indication 104 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: so far the Project twenty twenty five is Trump. 105 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 3: So I'll say two things about this. I wouldn't even 106 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,799 Speaker 3: say Project twenty twenty five is Trump. I would say 107 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 3: Trump Project twenty twenty five and all these other factions 108 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 3: on the right, because there are other factions on the 109 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 3: right that are kind of feuding with the Heritage people. Right, 110 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 3: there's the America First Policy Institute, there's the Trump campaign people. 111 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 3: They're not all the same and there are rivalries there, 112 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 3: but what they all share, right, what they all share 113 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 3: and what is expressed in Project twenty twenty five is 114 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 3: this more radical consensus on the right that we need 115 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 3: this kind of more radical or quote unquote counter revolution. 116 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 4: Right. 117 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 3: And this guy Russell vadd And I know you've written 118 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 3: about this guy, and I'm I've been working on some 119 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 3: of a deep dive into his ideology that will probably 120 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 3: out by the time this conversation comes up. He is 121 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 3: a key figure in this because he's going to be 122 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 3: the director of the Office of Management and Budget or 123 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 3: and B, just like he was at the end of 124 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 3: the first Trump administration. So why is it worth paying 125 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 3: attention to this? This is not I'm assuming most of 126 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 3: the people listening to us think Office of Management and Budget. 127 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 3: That doesn't sound like, you know, the most important position, 128 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 3: But he really is a He's one of the key figures, 129 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 3: not just any contributor. He is one of the key 130 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 3: architects behind Project twenty twenty five. And he's also a 131 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 3: truly radical figure. He's a self identifying Christian nationalist, not 132 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 3: at all on board with like a pluralistic democratic society, 133 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,239 Speaker 3: not at all. No, and he demands what he calls 134 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 3: He fancies himself like an intellectual leader. What makes him 135 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 3: kind of an interesting subject, you know, for someone like 136 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 3: me he was trying to understand what's going on on 137 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,559 Speaker 3: the right. He's interesting because he fancies himself an intellectual leader. 138 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 3: He will spell it out right, he will write down 139 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 3: what he thinks the problem in America is and what 140 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 3: needs to be done. And he calls it radical constitutionalism. 141 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 3: And that is precisely this idea that says, look, well, 142 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 3: don't even live in a constitutional order anymore, because the 143 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 3: radical left has already destroyed it. And so in response 144 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 3: to that, he calls for this again. He calls it 145 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 3: radical constitutionalism, which basically amounts to you destroy the constitution 146 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 3: in order to save it. And you do that because 147 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 3: you can do this now. Because he really believes Trump 148 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 3: is a kind of God sent chosen figure to lead 149 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 3: this kind of counter revolution. So he really he combines 150 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 3: sort of this kind of radical ideology with a great 151 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 3: deal of competence. And this is really important. I think 152 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 3: because as we're all kind of grappling with how much 153 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 3: of what they want to do are they going to 154 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 3: be able to actually do, actually able to be implemented, right, 155 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 3: Because I mean in the first Trump administration, there was 156 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 3: this thing, you know, it was of malevolence tempered by incompetence, right. 157 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 3: It was sort of a famous saying in the early 158 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,239 Speaker 3: Trump administration, and that was definitely true. Right, these malevolent people, 159 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 3: they just didn't know what they were doing. And if 160 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 3: you look at some denomination chaos and the Mattgates story 161 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 3: and Pete hex seven, all these people, it's very easy 162 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 3: to come to the conclusion that this is just that 163 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 3: all over again. These people are obviously incompetent, they don't 164 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 3: know what they're doing. But then on the other end 165 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 3: of the spectrum, you have someone like Russell Vadd who 166 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 3: has worked in and around government for twenty years at 167 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,679 Speaker 3: every level, like starting as like a low level aid, 168 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 3: a congressional aid, and making his way through all these 169 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 3: different stages and institutions, and he really understands government like 170 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 3: few other people. He knows what he's doing, and he 171 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 3: combines that with sort of a very radical ideology. And 172 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 3: so I think that is, you know, again, as we 173 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 3: are trying to calibrate our expectations, where on the scale 174 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 3: of you know, incompetence to sort of malevolence, are we 175 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 3: going to land with this, Someone like Russell vadd is 176 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 3: sort of, I think a reminder that you know, this 177 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 3: is not just going to be a bunch of incompetent duphesis. 178 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 3: There will be quite few of them also, but there 179 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 3: will also be the Russell Vaultz, and I think they 180 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 3: will provide the kind of counterweight to that. 181 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is really so important to realize, Like, in 182 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: my mind, a lot of this stuff in Project twenty 183 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: twenty five. The reason why it was so unpopular when 184 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: when people started googling about it and Trump had to 185 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: disavow it, which was, by the way, I love that 186 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: all of his disavowing stuff, he was involved and worked right. 187 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: He was like I mean, like voters really did believe. 188 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: He was like, yeah, we're going to kick abortion back 189 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: to the States. 190 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,359 Speaker 2: He overturned Robbie Wade. 191 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: And then they're like right, Like, I just love that. 192 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,839 Speaker 1: At every point he was like yeah, yeah, this is 193 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: what we're going to do, and people were like yeah, okay. 194 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: So he's like I know nothing about Project twenty twenty five, 195 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: and voters are like, Okay, he says he knows nothing, 196 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 1: and there are things in there that really run counter 197 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: to trump Ism, and I'm hoping you could talk about, like, 198 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 1: for example, things like they're war on pornography, right, because 199 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: like he went on all these bro podcasts and he. 200 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 2: Was like, I'm one of you. 201 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: We're all gonna have beers like talk to me about 202 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: like this is Christian nationalism. And sooner or later they 203 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: come for the pornography. 204 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 3: Yes, and they come for the pornography, not just because 205 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 3: they are so religiously you know, secat whatever. Yes, yes, no, 206 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 3: but also because throughout if you read, you know, they 207 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 3: put out there's a thousand page policy agenda thing. They 208 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 3: call it a mandate for leadership. And if you look 209 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 3: at whenever you know, they talk about pornography, they're not 210 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 3: actually talking about pornography or just pornography. They try to 211 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 3: link pornography to kind of sexual deviancy, and that's dangerous 212 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 3: and that's trans people that that's all the same thing 213 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 3: for them, right, So when they say we're banning pornography, 214 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 3: what they actually talk about is we're going to ban 215 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 3: everything and everyone who dares to deviate from our st 216 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 3: you know, very very sort of conservative Christian understanding of 217 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,599 Speaker 3: sexuality and gender. And so it's not actually about pornography 218 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,959 Speaker 3: so much. It's more about imposing this very very reactionary 219 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 3: Christian understanding of what the societal order should be. And 220 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 3: I think that is I mean, look, this is Trump's 221 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 3: kind of superpower, right when he goes on Joe Rogan 222 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 3: or whatever, and he will just riff. And it is 223 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 3: kind of true that Trump doesn't care whether or not 224 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 3: pornography will be banned, Right, that's not his thing. 225 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 2: Well, details are not his thing. 226 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 3: No, he doesn't hold specific policy positions so much. Right, 227 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 3: it's the same with abortion bands. Trump doesn't care is 228 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 3: it going to be a six week ban, a ten 229 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 3: week ban. He doesn't want to think about that kind 230 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 3: of stuff. Too many people mistake that to mean Trump 231 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 3: actually doesn't have ideological convictions or he will never implement 232 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 3: this kind of radical stuff because he doesn't really believe it. 233 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 3: But the thing is Trump does have a very clear 234 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 3: ideological vision, at least in the sense that he has 235 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 3: a very clear vision of how power should be distributed 236 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 3: in society. He has a very clear understanding of who 237 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 3: should be at the top in society and who should 238 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 3: be the like who should be people like him, rich 239 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:15,199 Speaker 3: white men, powerful men. You truly believe that they should 240 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 3: be in a position to, you know, exert power over everyone. 241 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,199 Speaker 3: They want to exert power over, especially women, right, and 242 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 3: they should be in charge. I agree. That's not the 243 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 3: same as like a fully fleshed out ideological He's not 244 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 3: going to sit down and write his manifesto, right, clearly not. 245 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 3: He's too lazy for that anyway. But that doesn't mean 246 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 3: there isn't an underlying vision of how society should be ordered, 247 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 3: of how society should be structured, of how power should 248 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 3: be distributed in society. And he has a very clear 249 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 3: vision of that. And so no, he doesn't care about 250 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 3: specifically how you're going to set up an abortion band. 251 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,079 Speaker 3: But what he very much clearly cares about is, you know, 252 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 3: all the radical feminists and all the loud women, and 253 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 3: all the women who are now like not gonna let 254 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 3: him touch them anymore. Whatever, They need to be put 255 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 3: back in their place, right, they need to be reminded, No, 256 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 3: this is a society in which people like me Donald 257 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 3: Trump can do as they please, and they can exert 258 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 3: power as they please, and that is a very clear 259 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 3: ideological understanding of how society should work. And so yeah, 260 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 3: he can go on Rogan and say pornography don't care, 261 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 3: abortion band don't care. And then people hear this and think, oh, 262 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 3: he's not going to implement this radical stuff. But that's 263 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 3: I think a categorical misunderstanding. He will implement things that 264 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 3: will again restore, or entrench or re entrench the kind 265 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 3: of societal order in which he truly believes, and that 266 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 3: is where he meets these kinds of people like Russell 267 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 3: Vaud and Kevin Roberts, the president of the Heritage Foundation, 268 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 3: because they also share this vision of what is fundamentally white, 269 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 3: patriarchal Christian dominance. 270 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: So what I think is very interesting here is that 271 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: it's almost as if these two people Donald Trump and MAGA, 272 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: because Donald Trump bis MAGA and this Project twenty twenty 273 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 1: five crew, which is really sort of different ideological bent. 274 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: It's a marriage of convenience, is that right? 275 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely, they meet on the basis of I think 276 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 3: two things. One is they share this understanding that something 277 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 3: has gotten out of control in America. The Woks are 278 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 3: running wild and the feminists and the crazy identity activists 279 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 3: and yeah, those are not my terms. This is the 280 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 3: kind of how they talk, right, and something has this 281 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 3: is not right, and we need to restore order. And 282 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 3: by order they mean a kind of white Christian patriarchal 283 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 3: dominance in all spheres of life. That's not just politics. 284 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 3: That's also the family and the public square and the 285 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 3: workplace and schools and all these places, right, all spheres 286 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 3: of life. That's why they come together. And they also 287 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 3: share again, they share an enemy. They are convinced that 288 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 3: it's time for retribution and revenge and that you have 289 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 3: a more traditional conservative politics just hasn't gotten the job done. 290 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 3: They share this good disdain. Or they talk about it 291 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 3: as the republic like an establishment and the conservative establishment, 292 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 3: and they want nothing to do with that anymore. They 293 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 3: think it's time for much more radical measures. And that's 294 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 3: where they sort of come together, right, I mean Trump, 295 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 3: It is true like Trump is not in some way. Right, 296 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 3: Trump is sort of a not an ideal vessel for 297 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 3: the kind of radical project that is outlined in Project 298 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, because he's not gonna sit down and 299 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 3: read a thousand page policy report, and he is erratic 300 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 3: and he is lazy. That's all true, right, That's that's 301 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 3: absolutely and you will always infuse chaos, that's absolutely true. 302 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 3: But then on the other hand, if you want something radical, 303 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 3: like you know, again the vision that is outlined here 304 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 3: in Project twenty twenty five, if you want that to 305 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 3: be implemented, you need a radical figure in the White 306 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 3: House who doesn't care about norms and doesn't care about 307 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 3: precedent and only cares about again retribution, revenge and imposing 308 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 3: his will on society. And that is Trump, right, And 309 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 3: that is what these people understand, people like again Kevin 310 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 3: Roberts and Russell Waud, that's what they see in Trump. 311 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 3: They don't care so much. They know and understand that 312 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 3: this is not someone who who has been a a 313 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 3: social conservative his whole life or a religious conservaive. Trump 314 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 3: has never been any of that. They understand this. But 315 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 3: they see him as someone who will come in, take 316 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 3: off the gloves, don't care about norms, don't care about precedents, 317 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 3: and implement this radical stuff. 318 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 4: Right. 319 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 3: He will not shy away from being radical and doing 320 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 3: the kind of radical stuff that they think is now 321 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 3: a sort of high time to move beyond conservatism. Move 322 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 3: beyond traditional republicanism and move to something much more radical. 323 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 3: And that's what they see in Trump. And I think 324 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 3: they got that right in January. 325 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: What's the thing that worris you the most? 326 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, what I think is really coming and coming right 327 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 3: away is going to be the mass deportation stuff. This 328 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 3: is also another of you know, another example for how 329 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 3: Trump maga Trump campaign Project twenty twenty five, for how 330 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 3: that all is not one thing but very much complimentary. 331 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 3: That was Trump's number one promise throughout the campaign. That 332 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 3: was his promise, We're going to do this mass deportation thing. 333 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 3: And then you look at someone like Russell Vatt, who 334 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 3: was in charge of one of the big planks of 335 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 3: Project twenty twenty five. They call it the one hundred 336 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,959 Speaker 3: and eighty day Playbook, basically a kind of sort of 337 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 3: emergency immediate measures they want to take in the first 338 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,719 Speaker 3: six months back in office. And when he talks about that, 339 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 3: what he really means is we have been drafting dozens, 340 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 3: probably hundreds of presidential executive orders that are going to 341 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 3: be ready on day one, and all sorts of regulations 342 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 3: ready on day one to be implemented on day one 343 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 3: by Donald Trump and much of that is centered around deportation, 344 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 3: mass deportation. Right when he there was sort of a 345 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 3: you know, a secret recording of a conversation that VOD 346 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 3: had in during the summer when he's of proudly because 347 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 3: this one hundred and eighty day playbook is secret, right, 348 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 3: that's the one part of Project twenty twenty five that 349 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 3: they have not made official. They want to keep that secret. 350 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:48,959 Speaker 3: But he was recorded talking about it, and he very 351 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 3: explicitly said, look, we have these executive orders ready and 352 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 3: a lot of this is going to be about mass deportation, 353 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 3: and I think that's absolutely coming. Like again, that doesn't 354 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 3: mean they will succeed at deporting fifteen million, twenty million, 355 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 3: twenty five million people within a short span of time. 356 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 3: It's very unlikely that they will be able to do that, 357 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 3: and there will be chaos, but chaos doesn't mean moderation, 358 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 3: and chaos doesn't save anyone. Chaos causes harm. So it 359 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 3: will be extremely chaotic and it will be violent, and 360 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 3: they will absolutely go ahead and do this. And I think, again, 361 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 3: this is the big difference to twenty seventeen. When they 362 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 3: came in in twenty seventeen, there was no one who 363 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 3: had drafted dozens or even hundreds of executive orders. They 364 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 3: didn't even know how to draft an executive order, right, 365 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 3: that was the big deal with if people remembered the 366 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 3: so called Muslim band that Trump tried to institute early on, 367 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 3: like right away in his first presidency, the executive order 368 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 3: was so badly written, right, that was very easy for 369 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 3: courts to come in and say, okay, this is nonsense, 370 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 3: stop it. Right, But this is not going to be 371 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 3: the case this time. This guy Russell Vaught, he knows 372 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 3: how to draft an executive order, and he says he's 373 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 3: drafted them, and I see no reason to not believe him, right, 374 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 3: And so I think that that is the type of 375 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 3: stuff that we are in for this time, and that 376 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 3: might be very different from last time. 377 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, the one hottest take is I thought for sure 378 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: they would build camps, but now I think they'll use 379 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: private persons. 380 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 2: They may not have this faith in private persons, right. 381 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 3: No, I think there will be a lot of chaos, right, 382 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 3: And just drafting executive orders does not mean that this 383 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 3: is going to work. And I want to be maybe 384 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 3: say this towards the end of our conversation. If people 385 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 3: feel like, oh my God, that is also depressing. Have 386 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 3: we already lost? Is it even worth I don't now 387 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 3: pushing back or you know, Look, there is a vast 388 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 3: gulf between the aspirations of absolutist power from the Trump 389 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 3: people and the realities of a complex modern society and 390 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 3: modern state, because modern societies and modern states are enormously 391 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 3: complex beasts, and any any authoritarian regime, regardless of how competent, 392 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 3: will always struggle to make you know, modern society and 393 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 3: a modern state fall in line. And in that gulf, 394 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 3: in that gap is where the conflict will happen, and 395 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 3: there will be enormous conflict, and there will be potential 396 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 3: to push back and to fight back, and you know, 397 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 3: to oppose these things. It would just not be the 398 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 3: same as in twenty seventeen because we're looking at it completely. 399 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 3: We're looking at a radicalized right. We're looking at a 400 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 3: right that is better prepared than in twenty seventeen. And 401 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 3: I know, again it's kind of hard to say this 402 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 3: because people would then point to Pete Hexav and say, yeah, 403 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 3: but that guy is not And I agree, again, it's 404 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 3: not across the board, right, It's not across the board. 405 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 3: And that's why there will be chaos, and there will 406 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 3: be incompetence, and sometimes they will shoot themselves in the foot. 407 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 3: That will all happen, But I think we need to 408 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 3: be prepared for the fact that there's also going to 409 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 3: be the Russell Vauds of this world in this administration, 410 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 3: and they again, they have a plan and they will 411 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 3: try to implement it, and there will be space to 412 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 3: push back. But what have seen so far has not 413 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 3: been very encouraging because instead of being very clear about 414 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 3: the fact that this incoming trumpst regime is not normal 415 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 3: and it's not just a normal, you know, incoming administration, 416 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 3: instead we've seen a lot of sort of normalizing and 417 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 3: legitimizing from our elected leaders, from our sort of nominally 418 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 3: at least anti maga institutions. That has really frustrated me 419 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 3: because we will need at some point, right we will 420 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 3: need the American public to be prepared to push back. 421 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 3: But if we spend the time from the election through 422 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 3: inauguration saying, oh, no, this is a this is a 423 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 3: totally normal, totally legit government coming in. When I say legit, 424 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 3: I don't mean like, please don't indulge in kind of like, oh, 425 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 3: the election was stolen stuff that is as conspiratorial, stupid 426 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 3: nonsense today as it was. Well, it's also just we 427 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 3: know it was no exactly, So that's not what I'm saying. 428 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 3: But when I hear like, I don't know, CNN or 429 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 3: NPR going on about, you know, the musk Ramaswami Department 430 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 3: of Government Efficiency as kind of like and they talk 431 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,239 Speaker 3: about it as if it is a kind of a 432 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 3: good faith, serious effort at government reform, and that is ridiculous. 433 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 3: It is not. We should not be legitimizing this kind 434 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 3: of stuff, right. We need to prepare people to look 435 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 3: at this and say, no, this has no legal or 436 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 3: constitutional authority, and these guys shouldn't be anywhere near political power, 437 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 3: and so we're not gonna accept this kind of stuff. 438 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 3: And that is I think where again, that's where the 439 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 3: conflict is, and that's where so maybe the job for 440 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 3: someone like you or maybe me is to kind of 441 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 3: tell people, look, no, let's not accept just because Donald 442 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 3: Trump calls it the Department of Government Efficiency doesn't mean 443 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 3: it's a department and it's had it has no legal 444 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 3: or constitutional authority, And. 445 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: Don't take the orwelly in no no descriptions seriously or literally. 446 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 3: No, absolutely not. And don't don't buy into the bravado either, Like, 447 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 3: don't listen to Steve Bannon and all those Oh we're 448 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 3: so strong, we're so No, don't take any of that right, 449 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 3: don't accept any of this nonsense that we have won 450 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 3: and we're now in charge. No, it's going to be. 451 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 3: Politics hasn't ended, and politics is not going to end 452 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 3: on January twentieth or whenever the inauguration is. It's gonna 453 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 3: it's going to continue. It's going to be conflict. But 454 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 3: in order for people to be able to again see 455 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 3: what is coming and push back, we need to be 456 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 3: careful now and not again have Democratic senators go on 457 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 3: television and say, oh, I think this is really a 458 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 3: good idea because we really need government reform. This is ridiculous, right, 459 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 3: So let's not do that. Let's be clear eyed about 460 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 3: what is coming. Let's pay attention. Yeah, and then the 461 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 3: conflict will continue. 462 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 1: Thomas, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank 463 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: you so much for having me on. 464 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 3: Always a pleasure. 465 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: Congressman Brendan Boyle represents Pennsylvania's second district. Welcome back to 466 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: Fast Politics, Representative Boyle. 467 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, great to be back with you. 468 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: I'm so delighted to have you here because we're actually friends, 469 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: which is nice. You've heard some of my insane theories before. 470 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: It is the end of the two hundred and eighteenth Congress. 471 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: How many bills did my Johnson pass? 472 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 4: I think it's a little over twenty. 473 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 5: I know, by some numbers, it's the least productive session 474 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 5: of Congress since nineteenth century. 475 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 2: Congratulations, Yeah, thank you, thank you. 476 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 5: It is a real testament to the Republican majority we 477 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 5: have right now that there were about as many votes 478 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 5: for Speaker as there were bills that passed the United 479 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 5: States House Representatives under this Republican majority. 480 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: That is an incredible statement, a statement you probably thought 481 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: you would never make, you. 482 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 5: Know, especially when you compare it to what we did 483 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 5: in twenty twenty one. In twenty twenty two, dealing with 484 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 5: the pandemic and with the same small majority that they had, 485 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 5: and we were able to pass very meaningful legislation, from 486 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 5: bringing down the cost of prescription drugs to the biggest 487 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 5: infrastructure packaged since the nineteen fifties, to the chipsack, to 488 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 5: all sorts of things. 489 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 4: It's a big difference. 490 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, you want to talk about legislation and doing things 491 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: for the American people. 492 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 2: I'm here to tell you that's for cover. 493 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 4: Silly me, silly me, it's so retro. 494 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 1: Job of Congress. What is the job of Congress? 495 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 5: There are two kinds of members of Congress. There are 496 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 5: the legislators and they're the performance artists. And what we 497 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 5: see on the other side, whether it's Marjorie Taylor Green 498 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 5: or Nancy Mace and her current jihad on bathrooms. 499 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 4: Or Lauren Bobert or. 500 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 5: YadA, YadA YadA, they are filled with performance artists don't 501 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 5: really give a damn about passing meaningful legislation, but unfortunately 502 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 5: they are able to con a significant number of people 503 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 5: into thinking, that's what we're supposed to do. 504 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 2: How do we get here? 505 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 4: And that is a. 506 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 5: Longer subject than we probably have time for. I mean, 507 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 5: going back many decades. I think part of it is 508 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 5: the media ecosystem that is built up on the right 509 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 5: that you're beginning with talk radio and Rush Limbaugh and 510 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 5: his incredibly successful popular show, to then Fox News, to 511 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 5: then all of the Limbaugh imitators who now are on social. 512 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 4: Media and TikTok, etc. 513 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 5: It didn't happen overnight, and in many ways, Donald Trump's 514 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 5: rise was enabled by that in a way that it 515 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 5: never would have happened in a previous generation when you 516 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 5: had more mainstream media being basically the entirety of media. 517 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 5: So I'm far from an expert on this, but I 518 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 5: don't think it's a coincidence that you see the rise 519 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 5: of someone like Trump and all these other characters now 520 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 5: in a way that you just didn't do it in 521 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 5: more boring, normal times. 522 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I also think it's a really good point. 523 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 3: Right. 524 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: The reward structure is such that you have a Congress, 525 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: it's heavily gerrymandered, so districts are more red or blue. 526 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 1: When they're more blue, that means fighting for things like 527 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 1: dental right glasses. When they're more red, that means fighting 528 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: for things like bullying Sarah McBride into not being able 529 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: to use the bathroom. 530 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's exactly right. 531 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 5: I mean, they are pretty expert at using the cultural 532 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 5: issues to inflame people to distract from the fact that 533 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 5: their agenda is all about enriching the one thousand billionaires 534 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 5: in this country. You know, you look at the infamous 535 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 5: ad now with the tagline She's for they them, President 536 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 5: Trump is for you, And what did that ad include 537 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 5: transgendered prisoners, and illegal or undocumented immigrants all in the 538 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 5: same AD. 539 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 4: I mean that was sort. 540 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 5: Of like a Poe Prie of Republican punching bags all 541 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 5: into one ad. But that has been the playbook for 542 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 5: a long time. Twenty years ago an election that I 543 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 5: think was actually pretty similar to this one in two 544 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 5: thousand and four, with a similarly close result and Republicans 545 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 5: narrowly winning the White House. That was about a constitutional 546 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 5: amendment to ban gay marriage at a time when we 547 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 5: had war raging in Iraq and a pretty weak economy. 548 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 5: So this is hardly the first time Republicans have used 549 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 5: those sort of cultural issues to distract people from the 550 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 5: fact that their economic agenda is not on the side 551 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 5: of the world class, in the middle class in this country. 552 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: I want to talk about that AD because a lot 553 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: of people think that AD was one of the things. 554 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: And again, there's no one thing that made Donald Trump 555 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: president again, right, he got these low propensity voters out there, 556 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: He did a lot of things that changed the electorate. 557 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: But I want you to talk about that AD because 558 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: that was an AD. When it came out, I heard 559 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: a lot of anxiety from people in the political classes 560 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: about how it actually did speak to people. So it's 561 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: an ad and it uses a clip from Harris during 562 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: the twenty nineteen primary cycle when people were asked to 563 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: sort of make sense of things that were maybe more 564 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: progressive than where the party was going, or more progressive 565 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: than Harris was for sure. 566 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 2: Just talk us through it. 567 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it was an ad that I must 568 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 5: have seen hundreds of times. I mean, I literally live 569 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 5: in the Philadelphia area, the biggest swing state, and I 570 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 5: know it is an ad that they played a lot 571 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 5: during sports and I watch a lot of sports, So 572 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 5: I'm a Pennsylvania voter, I watches a lot of sports, 573 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 5: and a male, so I was pretty much their target demo. 574 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 5: I think that the lesson here is whether it was 575 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 5: Ducaucus eighty eight or John Kerry getting swift voted, or 576 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 5: Kamala Harris with that ad. Any time that you are attacked, 577 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 5: you need to punch back, and you need to punch 578 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 5: back hard. Do not just ignore it and assume people 579 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 5: will figure out that the ads and exaggeration were flat 580 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 5: out false. I also think, though to your first point, 581 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 5: you know this in the end, both in Pennsylvania and nationally, 582 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 5: it was about a one and a half point race, 583 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 5: one point six percent to be exact, in the national 584 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 5: popular vote, and one point seven percent here in Pennsylvania. 585 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 5: So anytime you have a race that is actually one 586 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 5: of the closest in American history, you can point to 587 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 5: any one of one hundred things that you can say, oh, 588 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 5: that made the difference because. 589 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 4: The margin was so close. 590 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 5: So I do share with you the kind of caution 591 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 5: against saying there was any one thing that determined this race. 592 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 5: But I do think we need to relearn the old 593 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 5: lesson of you know, when your opponent is hitting you, 594 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 5: you can't ignore it, as absurd and as crazy it 595 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 5: may be. This is why in the ninety two campaign, 596 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 5: James Carville, Paul mcgalich, and the Clinton campaign created the 597 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 5: war room, because they learned from the eighty eight to 598 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 5: Caucus experience that, hey, anytime the other side throws that garbage, 599 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 5: we need to be fierce and batting it back down 600 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 5: and fighting back on it. 601 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, talk to me about Pennsylvania. That's your state. It 602 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 2: is a state that Democrats must win or else they lose. 603 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 2: As we saw just now. 604 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, this is the third consecutive presidential election that was 605 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 5: decided here by a point and a half or less. 606 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 5: The only other state that can say that is Wisconsin. 607 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 5: So we are by far the two closest swing states, 608 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 5: and if you're a Democrat, you have to have this 609 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 5: unless you dramatically overperform, you know, south in the sun Belt, 610 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 5: which is just more difficult. The reality is that we're 611 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 5: the state that closest reflected the national popular vote for 612 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 5: a reason. I mean, the state here looks a lot 613 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 5: like the rest of the country, urban suburban, rural, fast 614 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 5: growing suburbs as well as inner cities, rural areas that 615 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 5: are shrinking. Basically every part of America is replicated here 616 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 5: in just this one state. So I was on TV 617 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 5: a lot saying that whatever the national popular vote is, 618 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 5: it'll probably be about the same in Pennsylvania, and that 619 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 5: proved to be right. 620 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 2: Well, that's good, you or right. 621 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 5: I wish I weren't, to be clear, I would have 622 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 5: been very happy. I always said it was going to 623 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 5: be closer to election. I thought it would be basically 624 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 5: decided by. 625 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 4: A point or so. 626 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 5: I would have been very happy for a Democratic blowout 627 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 5: and to have been proven wrong. 628 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: It's funny because it's like we're about to enter four 629 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: years of being right and it being horrible. 630 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, t is out. 631 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 5: What we win for being right is nothing, absolutely nothing. 632 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: Right the dystopia when the sense that we knew this 633 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: was coming. I'm going to make you talk about something 634 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: that's actually a little annoying and maybe you don't want 635 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: to be asked about it, but too bad. Pennsylvania is 636 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: a state that has never elected a woman at the 637 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: top of the ticket, and before she ran for president, 638 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: that was something I thought a lot about. I want 639 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: you to talk about gender in this election because people 640 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: are not talking about that, and I guess we're not 641 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: supposed to talk about that, but it clearly seems like 642 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: I mean, just looking back on the last three elections, 643 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: like Democrats have tried to run a woman twice and 644 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: both times the state of Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin have 645 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: said no. 646 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, this is a tough and somewhat depressing 647 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 5: subject we talk about. No, but we have to be 648 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 5: This would have been a great time for our connection 649 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,479 Speaker 5: to go out, by the way, but the connection is strong, 650 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 5: so I guess I'm talking about it. 651 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 4: I have a ten year old daughter, as you know, 652 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 4: and man. 653 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 5: Just telling her the next morning that Trump had won 654 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 5: again she was so dejected the rest of the day, 655 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 5: wouldn't talk. 656 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 4: And it does depress me to think. 657 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 5: About the message this election is actually sending to the 658 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 5: other ten year old girls throughout this country. And I 659 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 5: do think that we have to acknowledge that perhaps it's 660 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 5: not just a coincidence that both dimes Donald Trump narrowly 661 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 5: won in this country both times she was up against 662 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 5: a female Democrat, and that, unfortunately, we do have to 663 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 5: recognize that misogyny still exists in the United States, and. 664 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 4: There are still some voters. 665 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 5: They're hardly a majority, but they're more than zero who 666 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 5: are just either unwilling or at least reluctant, either consciously 667 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 5: or subconsciously, to vote for a woman for president. I 668 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 5: think we will eventually overcome that, but obviously we haven't yet. 669 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, I'm sorry to ask you that question, 670 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 1: because clearly everyone in the world, in the pendent class 671 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: is trying to avoid answering it. 672 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 2: So it's really unfair of me to ask it of you. 673 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 2: But we are. 674 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 4: Friends, that's okay. 675 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: And you do have a daughter, and I do know 676 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: I also have a daughter, and I do know how 677 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 1: completely crushing it is to tell them that you had 678 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: a very competent woman and a felon, and yet again 679 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: the felon prevailed. 680 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 5: Yeah, I would rather deal with it realistically though than 681 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 5: pretend that it doesn't exist. It's hardly the only reason 682 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 5: why she lost and Democrats didn't do as well in 683 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 5: this election. I mean, let's just take a step back 684 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 5: and acknowledge it's not a coincidence that this is the 685 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 5: first year since nineteen oh five in which every party 686 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,760 Speaker 5: in power has lost the inflation crisis that was sparked 687 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,439 Speaker 5: as we kind of turned the economy back on as 688 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 5: we recovered from the pandemic that has hurt parties in 689 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 5: power from the UK and Germany to Japan and South Korea, 690 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 5: South America, Canada and the US. And it doesn't, by 691 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 5: the way, didn't end up making a difference if it 692 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,280 Speaker 5: was a conservative government, a liberal government, a centrist government. 693 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 4: Every government in power. 694 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 5: The last couple of years has paid the price for that, 695 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 5: and so that in the end, I think was by 696 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 5: far the biggest factor. But there are also these other 697 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 5: factors as well, and I think it's better to be 698 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 5: open and honest about it and discuss it. 699 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do think the anti incumbent headwinds were 700 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,280 Speaker 1: you know, it was a perfect glass cliff scenario where 701 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:34,879 Speaker 1: anti incumbent headwinds party and power that had very low 702 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 1: approval ratings. Really she was set up in a way 703 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: that was almost impossible. So last night, this is like, 704 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: we're already in another Trump term and he hasn't even 705 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: took office yet. He decided that he's going he's going 706 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: to go tariff mad. He was elected to make things cheaper, 707 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: but now he is going to indulge in tariffs. 708 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 2: Make it make sense. 709 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,839 Speaker 5: You know, it's going to be an unfortunate reality if 710 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,760 Speaker 5: these tariffs come to pass. For the you know, working 711 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 5: class voters in my district, and I have a very 712 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 5: working class district, racially diverse, White working class, Black working class, Latino, 713 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 5: and Asian working class. 714 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 4: All four groups swung more. 715 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 5: Right in their voting patterns than they had been. It's 716 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 5: going to be a rude awakening if these tariffs come 717 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 5: to pass. The goods that they're buying today will be 718 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 5: instantly more expensive because of these tariffs. It's one of 719 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,479 Speaker 5: these things that maybe sounds good in fury, and yeah, 720 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 5: we're going to stand up to them, these foreign companies 721 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 5: and put on a tariff. But at the end of 722 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 5: the day, it's American consumers who who pay the price, 723 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 5: and the people who are the most impacted by it 724 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,280 Speaker 5: are those who have the least amount of distressal income. 725 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 5: One thing, you know, economists are famous for being very 726 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 5: on the one hand, but also on the other hand. 727 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,800 Speaker 5: One area in which liberal economists and conservative economists agree 728 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 5: is that tariffs make things more expensive. You know, we 729 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 5: had a broad spectrum economists saying that Trump's policies will 730 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 5: make things more expensive. And that's the reality we're soon 731 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 5: going to face if these tariffs actually come into existence. 732 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,399 Speaker 4: It could be he's bloviating. Wouldn't be the. 733 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 5: First time I think that we need to stand up 734 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 5: in Congress and do everything we can. I mean, I'm 735 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 5: on the committee that actually deals with trade and tariffs. 736 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 2: Are you the ranking member of it? 737 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 5: I'm the ranking member of the Budget Committee, and also 738 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 5: Ways and Means Committee as well. They're going to be 739 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 5: a big part of the fights that we see in 740 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 5: twenty twenty five. 741 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 1: Make me feel better about Russ fought, since this is 742 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: just therapy for me, make me feel better about restaught. 743 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 4: Okay, so you want me to lie to you? 744 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: Yes, ro let's give for the people. We're not severely 745 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: in this nightmare. Russ Vaught is now going to be 746 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: Trump's head of omb Office of Management and Budget. He 747 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: is now going to try to prevent the federal government 748 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: from spending the money that Congress allocated to it. 749 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 2: You are the ranking member on budget discuss. 750 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, and it's our committee that is oversight 751 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 5: in this matter. And I have to tell you that, 752 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 5: and think of the low bar here that I'm talking about. 753 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 5: Of all of the Trump appointees, one of the ones 754 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 5: that concerns me the most is Russ Fought. 755 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, mine too, I actually just wrote a column about it. 756 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 5: Sorry, go on, Yeah, no, So you and I are 757 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 5: not surprised. You and I are like minded on this. 758 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 5: He is a true ideologue and an extremist. He is 759 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 5: one of the masterminds behind Project twenty twenty five. He 760 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 5: desperately wants to return the American government basically to what 761 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,759 Speaker 5: it was in the nineteenth century, before you had the 762 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 5: New Deal, before you had Social Security, before you had Medicare, medicaid. 763 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 4: A lot of the language in there about. 764 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 5: What to do with the federal workforce and politicizing it. 765 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,959 Speaker 5: He has his fingerprints all over it, and we've dealt 766 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 5: with him before because he was in this position during 767 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 5: the first Trump presidency. He is indeed a very extreme person. 768 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 5: If we want to be optimistic here, I would remind 769 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,439 Speaker 5: everyone that one difference from eight years ago and now 770 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 5: as they eight years ago, House Democrats were pretty deep 771 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 5: in the minority. I was entering my second term, we 772 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 5: didn't even have two hundred House Democrats. They had over 773 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 5: a forty seat majority. Well, now they're looking at a 774 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 5: very thin majority. In fact, if we pick up these 775 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 5: two final races in California, it looks like the House 776 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,839 Speaker 5: of Representatives in early January could be as close as 777 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 5: two seventeen to two fifteen, because it would be two 778 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 5: twenty to two fifteen at full strength. 779 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 4: Gates has already resigned. 780 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 5: Another Republican from Florida, Walls, is out the door on 781 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,839 Speaker 5: January twentieth, and then presumably at least to fanic we'll 782 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 5: leave shortly thereafter. That would drop them to two seventeen. 783 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 5: So we just need in mad scenario, we literally just 784 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 5: need one House Republican to join with us to be 785 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 5: able to stop any sort of thing that would require 786 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 5: legislation to be passed where we'll have more difficulty. Are 787 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 5: those things that Trump can do by executive order? 788 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's where we are. Would you please come back. 789 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 5: I I'm a proud listener and I'd be happy to 790 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 5: come back anytime. 791 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 792 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:14,360 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday to hear the best 793 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 794 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,800 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 795 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:23,880 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. 796 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.