1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Al Zone Media. 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 3 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 4 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one 5 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 6 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 7 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 8 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:22,639 Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 9 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions. 10 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 3: Hello, everybody, Welcome to It could happen here. This is 11 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 3: Sharene and today is a very special day. It is 12 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 3: the first of April, April Fool's Day. Someone may or 13 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 3: may not have been born on this day. But little 14 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 3: known fact that I didn't know about until I was 15 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 3: an adult was that the first of April is historically 16 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 3: Syrian New Year. That's right. I learned about this as 17 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 3: a Syrian in my mid twenties, so it's not exactly 18 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 3: very well known, but when I learned about it, I 19 00:00:58,320 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 3: got obsessed with it. So I'm going to talk about 20 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 3: that and just the history of April Fool's Day and 21 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 3: how it became April Fool's Day, in particular because originally, 22 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 3: as I said, it started as the Syrian New Year, 23 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 3: and many researchers consider it the oldest recorded holiday in 24 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 3: the history of the Near East. The Syrian calendar is 25 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 3: also considered one of the last remaining ancient calendars that 26 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 3: is still celebrated. Up until now, he had uns no relation, 27 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 3: but he's a doctor in archaeology in Ancient Languages at 28 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 3: the University of Damascus. He said that the celebrations of 29 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 3: the New year coincided with the celebrations of the arrival 30 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 3: of spring, and they began the day of the vernal equinox, 31 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 3: and they continued until the first of April, a Syrian 32 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 3: New Year's day. This day is associated with the celebration 33 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 3: of the end of the reigning season and the start 34 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 3: of fertility and the growth of crops and fruits, as 35 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 3: the celebrations were accompanied with religious rituals in which offerings 36 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 3: were made. Unis also noted that the Syrian calendar is 37 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 3: related to Ishtad, who is the first mother goddess, the 38 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 3: goddess of life, the morning and evening star. At the 39 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 3: same time, the ancient texts describe Ashtar as in her 40 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 3: mouth lies the secrets of life. The word astar comes 41 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 3: from the Akkadian language. She is known as Anana or 42 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 3: Nana in Sumerian. And she was the first deity for 43 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 3: which we have written evidence of, as well as the 44 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 3: world's first goddess of love and war. And she had 45 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 3: a lover named Tammuz in ancient Mesopotamia, which roughly corresponds 46 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 3: to modern Iraq parts of Iran, Syria, Kuwait, and Turkey. 47 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,239 Speaker 3: Love was a powerful force capable of upending earthly order 48 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 3: and producing sharp changes in status and Ashtar definitely deserves 49 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 3: an episode all for herself. She's completely fascinating and needs 50 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 3: more than just a blurb. But I had to at 51 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 3: least mention her, and maybe one day I'll do an 52 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,119 Speaker 3: episode about her. But that's a Shtar for you for now. 53 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 3: There are other researchers, though, that have criticized the validity 54 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 3: of April first as the Syrian New Year. Because of this, 55 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 3: the origin of the Syrian New Year's a key to 56 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 3: celebration aki Tu. It has sparked some controversy, with debates 57 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 3: fueled by history and religion. The validity of the ritual 58 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 3: is disputed because it is not widely celebrated locally and 59 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 3: its relevance is not generally accepted by academia. Some would 60 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,239 Speaker 3: argue that the celebration of Syrian New Year is useless. 61 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 3: Among them is Bashar Khalif, who is a history researcher 62 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 3: specializing in the Mashrich Calif says the celebrating a key 63 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 3: to quote stems from nostalgia and an attempt to escape 64 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 3: the present. So what are the origins of a key 65 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 3: to A key to marks the Assyrian and Babylonian New Year, 66 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 3: and it is observed the first of April and last 67 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 3: twelve days. The Akkadians and Chaldeans also have celebrated the holiday. 68 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 3: Doctor Joseph is a tune fun fact. Zetun means olive, 69 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 3: what a cute name. Doctor Joseph Zetun is an expert 70 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 3: in Syrian history, and he is one of the historians 71 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 3: who considers ake to quote the oldest recorded holiday in 72 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 3: the history of the Near East. The earliest reference to 73 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 3: this holiday dates back to twenty five hundred BC in 74 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 3: er U are Er was an important Sumerian city state 75 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 3: in ancient Mesopotamia, located at the site of modern Tel 76 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 3: l Moreyed and South Irax dir Klar Governorate. According to 77 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 3: Syrian researchers, the Akitu holiday was quote held for the 78 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 3: Sumerian moon god Nana. For the Babylonians, it chronicled the 79 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 3: god Marduk's victory over the goddess Timayat. During the Babylonian era. 80 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 3: The first four days were traditionally reserved for religious rituals. 81 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 3: Babylonians used to offer prayers and sacrifices and recite the 82 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 3: anuma Alish, which is the Babylonian epic of creation. The 83 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 3: remaining days would include social and political rituals. According to 84 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 3: the researcher Hazad and Majidi, the Sumerians observed this holiday 85 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 3: on March twenty first of every year, and this marked 86 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 3: the start of the Sumerian New Year. On the other hand, 87 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 3: Semitic peoples like the Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians, they celebrate a 88 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 3: key to on April first. What is this word a 89 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 3: key to? I asked the same thing. I asked the 90 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 3: mom the same thing, because I'm still a child who 91 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 3: thinks my mom knows everything, but she doesn't. She doesn't 92 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 3: know what that means. She's ever even heard the word, 93 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 3: and she didn't know the origin of a ke to. 94 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 3: And apparently there's no consensus among historians on the exact 95 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 3: meaning of this word. However, researcher On Majdi details his 96 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 3: theory in the books Summer Corpus and Prehistoric Religions and Beliefs. 97 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 3: According to m. Majidi, the word a key to is 98 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 3: the name of the feast and the place where celebrations 99 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 3: were held. The word appeared in late Sumerian texts as 100 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 3: a key t. The word is then believed to be 101 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 3: of Sumerian origin. The sign ah means rain, Ki means earth, 102 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 3: and t is a verb meaning to draw near. Thus 103 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 3: it roughly translates to drawing water closer to the earth. 104 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 3: Very poetic, according to jam M Shahin, numerous ancient scriptures 105 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 3: mentioned the same aki t. For instance, the holiday bears 106 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 3: the name Akitu in Aramaic, Akiti sunonym in Sumerian, Visha, 107 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 3: Deshata in Akkadian, and Rabi Nissan in Assyrian. Nissan, by 108 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 3: the way, is April in Arabic. The shah Deshaeta and 109 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 3: Krabi Nissan are often used in the Levante to mean 110 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 3: head of the year and first of April, respectively. On 111 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 3: the other hand, doctor Mahmud Hossein and Amen wrote that 112 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 3: the celebrations were held at a specific location known as 113 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,559 Speaker 3: the House of Celebrations or Akitu, which was outside the city, 114 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 3: so this makes a k to a location as well 115 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 3: well a sacred location. In ancient beliefs, the Akitu house 116 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 3: refers to the gods dwelling on earth. The purpose of 117 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 3: having a celebratory feast is to celebrate the gods choosing 118 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 3: to temporarily reside in this city, and the purpose of 119 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 3: this house is to guard and cherish that moment forever. 120 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 3: And Even though now the name Nissan is used for 121 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 3: what we know as the month of April, the month 122 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 3: of Nissan used to be around the time of the 123 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 3: vernal equinox, which starts around March twenty first. The vernal 124 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 3: equinox is still celebrated throughout Greater Iran as Nurus, which 125 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 3: means new Day on March twenty first. However, in ancient Assyrian, 126 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 3: Akkadian and Babylonian traditions, the spring festival was celebrated in 127 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 3: the first days of the month known as Nissan, and 128 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 3: the calendar adopted by ancient Assyrians had the month Nissan 129 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 3: at the beginning of the calendar year, which lends to 130 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 3: the term Kabi Nissan or the first of Nissan. So 131 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 3: let's talk about the Syrian calendar and April Fool's Day 132 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 3: what we all came here for. By the fact, about me, 133 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 3: my birthday is today, April fools Day. 134 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 4: Wow. 135 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 3: And I didn't even know about this history, as I said, 136 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 3: until I was an adult person in my mid twenties. 137 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 3: But once I learned about this history, especially as a 138 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 3: Syrian person who was really proud to be Syrian, it 139 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 3: really made me appreciate my birthday and my ancestry a 140 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 3: lot more because growing up, not gonna lie, it's honestly 141 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 3: a pain in the ass birthday. Lots of empty gift 142 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 3: boxes and people saying Happy Birthday, April Fools and just 143 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 3: me like rolling my eyes and grimacing throughout the entire day. 144 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 3: There is one particularly traumatic memory I have from middle 145 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 3: school where I was given a box of chocolates and 146 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 3: the joke was that the chocolates tasted like shit. And 147 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 3: I know this because I tasted a chocolate and then 148 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 3: I immediately spit it out. And to this day, I 149 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 3: don't know what that chocolate was made out of, and 150 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 3: I hope I never find out, But anyway, it's just 151 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 3: a weird ass birthday to have you know what else 152 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 3: is weird? Weird ass ads, listen and we are back. Okay. 153 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 3: Doctor ze Tune believes it is more accurate to call 154 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 3: the calendar that starts at April first as a Syrian 155 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 3: calendar rather than Assyrian, since all in Syria and Mesopotamia 156 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 3: adopted it. He also thinks that the ancient Syrian calendar 157 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 3: begins on the first of April, and that quote This 158 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 3: calendar was present and endured in multiple Syrian civilizations, including 159 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 3: the kingdoms of Ugadit, Elba, Mari, Palmyra, and Damascus until 160 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 3: the early twentieth century. Syrians traditionally began their year in 161 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 3: April first, but transitioned to the Western calendar during the 162 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 3: period of the French mandate, so it actually wasn't even 163 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 3: that long ago that April first marked the beginning of 164 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 3: the new year in Syria. The rituals of Assyrian New 165 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 3: Year are linked to April Fools. There are rituals aimed 166 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 3: at quote humbling the king, which would start from the 167 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 3: fifth day of the celebrations. Lying was also a big 168 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 3: part of the celebrations, as the king would abdicate his 169 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 3: throne in favor of a criminal sentenced to death. That 170 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 3: part is crazy to me. Enslaved people also became masters, 171 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 3: and people disguise themselves in costumes and masks to hide 172 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 3: their identities until they awoke from the lie the next morning. 173 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 3: So the whole day would be a farce essentially, and 174 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 3: you would all knowingly live a lie until the next 175 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 3: day everything is suddenly backed normal again. Hannasumi, head of 176 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 3: the Syriac Cultural Association in Syria, said, after the common 177 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 3: folk occupies the king's throne, he blends in with the 178 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 3: people incognito. Chaos ensues in Babylon and on the first 179 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 3: of April, the king is found and joy prevails, and 180 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 3: that is the origin of April Fool's Day. The king 181 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 3: did not truly disappear, It was but a charade. There's 182 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 3: also another reason the first of April is associated with 183 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 3: an April fool, doctor Shaheen writes. Until fifteen sixty four AD, 184 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 3: the Syrian calendar was adopted in most countries. In France, 185 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 3: celebrations started on March twenty first and ended on April first, 186 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 3: just as the Assyrians and Babylonians did thousands of years ago. 187 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 3: After King Charles the ninth adopted the new Gregorian calendar, 188 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 3: celebrations began on December twenty fifth and ended January first, 189 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 3: which we now all know is the beginning of the 190 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 3: new year. However, some of the publics still continued to 191 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 3: celebrate on April first, and the people who still held 192 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 3: onto this tradition became the target of mockery by the 193 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 3: nobility for still believing in April Fool's Day. Other historians 194 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 3: speculate that April fools Day dates back to fifteen eighty two, 195 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 3: when France switched from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar, 196 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 3: as called for by the Council of Trent in fifteen six. 197 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 3: In the Julian calendar, as well as the Syrian calendar 198 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 3: and also the Hindu calendar, the new year began with 199 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 3: the Spring equinox on April first, but people were slow 200 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 3: to get the news or they failed to recognize that 201 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 3: the start of the new year had moved to January first. 202 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 3: Those who continue to celebrate the new year during the 203 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 3: last week of March through April first became the butt 204 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 3: of jokes and hoaxes, and were called April Fools. These 205 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 3: pranks included having paper fish placed on their backs and 206 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 3: being referred to as april fish in French, which is 207 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 3: possan di'avril. I can't say that correctly, and I can't 208 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 3: even attempt to do a French accent. But it's the 209 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 3: april fish you refer to as an april fish and 210 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 3: symbolizing a young, easily caught fish and a gullible person. 211 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 3: So it's kind of like an elevated kick me sign 212 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 3: on your back. Interestingly enough, fish are also considered a 213 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 3: lucky symbol in many areas of the world, and are 214 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 3: also important to many New Year's traditions. There was an 215 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 3: opinion piece for a few years ago about the marginalization 216 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 3: of the holiday of Akitu as part of a quote 217 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 3: systemic battle against ancient civilizations. Doctor Shaheen noted that this 218 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 3: prohibition has continued until recently. Different regimes and religious figures 219 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 3: prohibited it because it is a pagan feast and has rituals, prayers, 220 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 3: and texts that offend the followers of the monotheistic religions. 221 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 3: He added that ak To is witnessing a renaissance among 222 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 3: the Assyrian, Chaldean and Syriac communities abroad, particularly as a 223 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 3: result of religious freedom. He asks will Akitu return or 224 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 3: is it merely a trend that will fade away once again. 225 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 3: Many cultures still recognize the significance of April first, including 226 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 3: the Assyrians. Despite being scattered across the world, Assyrians preserve 227 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 3: their history and heritage through holidays like Assyrian New Year 228 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 3: on April first, Assyrian New Year is the spring festival 229 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 3: among the indigenous Assyrians of non northern Iraq, northeastern Syria, 230 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 3: southeastern Turkey, and northwestern Iran. Celebrations involve parades and parties, food, music, 231 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 3: and dancing. Some Assyrians wear traditional costumes, are dressed like 232 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 3: Assyrian royalty, and dance for hours. Celebrations take place throughout 233 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 3: Assyria and other areas in the Middle East, along with 234 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 3: some in the United States, Europe, and Australia among the 235 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 3: Assyrian diaspora communities. The modern observance of aki To began 236 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 3: in the nineteen sixties during the Assyrian intellectual Renaissance. However, 237 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 3: due to political oppression, the celebrations were largely private until 238 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 3: the nineteen nineties, but the event is still largely celebrated 239 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 3: by Assyrians residing in Syria. Although the Syrian government does 240 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 3: not acknowledge the festival at all, Assyrians still continue with 241 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 3: the celebration. In two thousand and two, Assyrians and Syria 242 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 3: celebrated the event with a mass wedding of sixteen couples 243 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 3: and over twenty five thousand attendees. After the formation of Turkey, 244 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 3: Kabi Nissan, along with no Ruz, were banned from public celebration. 245 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 3: Assyrians and Turkey were first allowed to publicly celebrate Kabi 246 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 3: Nissan in two thousand and five after organizers received permission 247 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 3: from the government to stage the event and light of 248 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 3: democratic reforms adopted in support of Turkey's EU membership. Bid 249 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 3: Around five thousand people, including large groups of visiting ethnic 250 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 3: Assyrians from Europe, Syria and Iraq took part in the 251 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 3: Kabi Nissan celebrations in Turkey. One of the largest Assyrian 252 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 3: New Year celebrations took place in Iraq in two thousand 253 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 3: and eight. Public celebrations were not allowed by Saddam Hussein's 254 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 3: regime prior to the start of the Iraq War. The 255 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 3: event was organized by the Assyrian Democratic Movement ZOA and 256 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 3: between forty five thousand and sixty five thousand people took 257 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 3: part in the parade. In two thousand and four, George 258 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 3: Ridanovich of the California State Assembly recognized the Assyrian New 259 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 3: Year in a extended his wishes to the Assyrian community 260 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 3: in California. This was later followed by a letter from 261 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 3: our old California governor, Terminator Arnold to the Assyrian community 262 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 3: in California, congratulating them on the annual celebration. I just 263 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 3: thought that was pretty interesting because it is a very 264 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 3: modern resurgence and like renaissance of this day. So fun 265 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 3: facts and in the United States, almost four million Americans 266 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 3: can trace their roots back to an Arab country located 267 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 3: in the Middle East or North Africa. And this is 268 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 3: according to the Arab American Institute. Each year, many school districts, cities, 269 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 3: and states observe Arab American Heritage Month in April. It's 270 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 3: meant to honor the historic achievements and cultural contributions of 271 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 3: Arab Americans throughout the nation. On April first, twenty twenty two, 272 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 3: April was officially designated as National Arab American Heritage Month 273 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 3: by the federal government. The movement for this recognition was 274 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 3: first started in nineteen teen eighty nine, when Congress declared 275 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 3: October twenty fifth as a day to honor Arab American 276 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 3: Heritage and called it National Arab American Day, but the 277 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 3: Arab American community pushed for further recognition. In twenty seventeen, 278 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 3: a media outlet called Arab America, as well as a 279 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 3: nonprofit Arab America Foundation, launched an initiative that called all 280 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 3: lawmakers to make April National Arab American Heritage Month. Arab 281 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,479 Speaker 3: America said that April was chosen because it did not 282 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 3: conflict with other observances that highlight marginalized communities, and that 283 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 3: the month symbolizes hope, growth and new beginnings. And yeah, 284 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 3: sure that can be true with spring starting and flowers 285 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 3: blooming and so on, but I think there might be 286 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 3: a little more symbolism there as well. Personally, I think 287 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 3: all national holidays are kind of useless unless you get 288 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 3: like a day off from work, and giving a marginalized 289 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 3: community a day or a month is a rather shallow 290 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 3: and also useless acknowledgement of that community. I mean, Columbus 291 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 3: also has a day himself, and even though many states 292 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 3: now observe it as Indigenous People's Day, sixteen states as 293 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 3: well as the territory of American Samoa still observe the 294 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 3: second Monday in October as the official public holiday exclusively 295 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 3: called Columbus Day. All this is to say that I 296 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 3: would rather lawmakers actually advocate for marginalized communities instead of 297 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 3: just tossing them a day or a few weeks where 298 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 3: suddenly they exist. It is still kind of cute to 299 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 3: me that Arab American Heritage Month is starting today in 300 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 3: April because of all the symbolism. Let's take our second break. 301 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 3: I don't have a clever segue. Oh well, and we 302 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 3: are back. 303 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 5: Okay. 304 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,719 Speaker 3: Where else have we seen April fools Day in the world. 305 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 3: April Fool's Day has a shockingly global history for a 306 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 3: holiday devote to lies and deception. Historians have also linked 307 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 3: April Fool's Day to festivals such as Hilaria and ancient Rome. 308 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 3: Hilaria is Latin for joyful, and this day was celebrated 309 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 3: in ancient Rome at the end of March by followers 310 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 3: of the cult of Sabelle. It involved people dressing up 311 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 3: in disguises and mocking fellow citizens and even magistrates, and 312 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 3: it was said to be inspired by the Egyptian legend 313 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 3: of Isis, Osiris and Seth. There's also speculation that April 314 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 3: Fool's Day was tied directly to the vernal equinox or 315 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 3: the first day of spring in the Northern hemisphere, and 316 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 3: this is where Mother Nature fooled people with changing, unpredictable weather. 317 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 5: I like that one. 318 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 3: In Latin America, you have few chances to be pranked. 319 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 3: Much of Latin America celebrates Eldiya Delos and Ascentis or 320 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 3: Day of the Innocence, which is a late December Catholic 321 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 3: feast with an extremely unsilly origin that has now somehow 322 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 3: become a day of jokes and pranks. In Ebbi elec 323 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 3: Pant Spain, they mark this day aka they are April 324 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 3: Fool's Day in December by having a town wide food fight, 325 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 3: complete with military strategy and historical lore. Then there's the 326 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 3: Els and Fernat's tradition, which is reportedly more than two 327 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 3: hundred years old and involves a mock military style takeover 328 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 3: of the town where the new rulers get to make 329 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 3: up strange laws that others have to abide by, and 330 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 3: if they don't, they get fined and the money goes 331 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 3: to charity. When I was reading this earlier, I was like, oh, 332 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 3: this is the purge, but then it ends up money 333 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 3: goes to charity and it's like, oh, it's nice, but 334 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,719 Speaker 3: so for those cultures, the day to watch out for 335 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,239 Speaker 3: is December twenty eighth. In Brazil, however, April first is 336 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 3: still the prank day of choice, and they cut straight 337 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 3: to the chase by congate Dia das Mantidas, or the 338 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 3: Day of Lies. Similarly to Syria, Iran has one of 339 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 3: the oldest April Fool's traditions with the observance of Sista Badud, 340 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 3: which also has a prank playing element. It is celebrated 341 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 3: on the thirteenth day of the Persian New Year, on 342 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 3: April first or April second. SiZ Da Badad, which is 343 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 3: also said to have been celebrated as far back as 344 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 3: the fifth century BC, is translated as quote getting rid 345 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 3: of thirteen, so it has an appropriately superstitious air. It's 346 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 3: also considered a spring festival, which ties into other April 347 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 3: Fool's predecessors, like the ancient Roman celebration of Hilaria. April 348 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 3: Fool's Day spread throughout Britain during the eighteenth century. In Scotland, 349 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 3: the tradition became a two day event, starting with quote 350 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 3: hunting the gouk that's a word gowk gouk is a 351 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 3: term for a type of bird, but it's also slang 352 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 3: for a fool on this day pranking. Scot's send unsuspecting 353 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 3: Gouq's the people, not the birds on fool's errands just 354 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 3: to waste their time, And if you don't get gouchd, 355 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 3: there's always an opportunity for humiliation the very next day, 356 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 3: which is Tallly Day. Tallly Day is for largely harmless 357 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,959 Speaker 3: Darriere related pranks aka pranks involving your butt, such as 358 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 3: pinning fake tales on someone or sticking Kickney signs on them. 359 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 3: April first in Poland goes about it the same as 360 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 3: any other pro April Fool's place. It's called Prima aprilis. 361 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 3: There is a funny parting phrase for prankers, though that 362 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 3: I thought was worth mentioning, which is Prima aprilis April 363 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 3: Fool's Day, be careful, you can be wrong, which is 364 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 3: truly like advice to take throughout the entire year. But 365 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 3: what about what we've come to know as the typical 366 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 3: April Fool's Day pranks. It's not especially surprising that capitalism 367 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 3: took like a fun little day like April Fool's Day 368 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 3: and ran with it because, as we know, we live 369 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 3: in hell. But in modern times, people have gone to 370 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 3: great lengths to create elaborate April fools Day hoaxes. Newspapers, 371 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 3: radio and TV stations, and websites have participated in the 372 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 3: April First tradition of reporting outrageous fictional claims that have 373 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 3: fooled their audiences. A few examples. In nineteen fifty seven, 374 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 3: the BBC reported that Swiss farmers were experiencing a record 375 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 3: spaghetti crop and showed footage of people harvesting noodles from trees. 376 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty five, Sports Illustrated writer George Plimpton tricked 377 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 3: many readers when he ran a made up article about 378 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,959 Speaker 3: a rookie picture named Sid Finch who could throw a 379 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 3: fastball over one hundred and sixty eight miles per hour. 380 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety two, National Public Radio ran a spot 381 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 3: with former President Richard Nixon saying that he was running 382 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 3: for president again, Only it was an actor, not Nixon, 383 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 3: and this segment was all in April Fool's Day prank 384 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 3: that caught the country by surprise. In nineteen ninety six, 385 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 3: Taco Bell duped people when it announced that it agreed 386 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 3: to purchase Philadelphia's Liberty Bell and intended to rename it 387 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 3: the Taco Liberty Bell. In nineteen ninety eight, after Burger 388 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 3: King advertised a quote left handed whopper, scores of clueless 389 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:11,120 Speaker 3: customers requested this fake sandwich and then Google also notoriously 390 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 3: hosts an annual April fools Day prank that has included 391 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 3: everything from a telepathic search to the ability to play 392 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 3: pac Man on Google Maps. This is a sentence that 393 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 3: made me laugh from History dot Com. For the average trickster, 394 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 3: there is always the classic April fools Day prank of 395 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,479 Speaker 3: covering the toilet seat with plastic wrap or swapping the 396 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 3: contents of sugar and salt containers. I'm sorry I had 397 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 3: to mention that, because like the sugar and salt is 398 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 3: very innocent, But I for one have never heard of 399 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 3: covering the toilet and plastic wrap. That seems cruel and 400 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 3: crazy in History dot com. 401 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 4: Wow. 402 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 3: Anyway, Impressively, the joke of April Fool's Day has endured 403 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 3: for centuries, and at this point to have my life 404 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 3: contribute any part to this joke is an honor. Actually, 405 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 3: I live for bits in April Fool's Day is basically 406 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 3: the longest running bit of all time. So it was 407 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 3: only right that I was born today and that, my friends, 408 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 3: is our episode today. I hope you had fun. Now 409 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 3: I'm gonna go do something for my birthday, even though 410 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 3: this is the past, but today is my birthday and 411 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 3: I'm doing something now for you. Anyway, that's it. 412 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 4: Bye, Welcome to Jack it Apping here a podcast about 413 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 4: things falling apart and putting it back together again. We're 414 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 4: going fasten this intro because we have a lot of 415 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 4: stuff to get to and the thing that we have 416 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 4: a lot of stuff to get to about is the 417 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 4: election for candidates for the Council of Presidents for National 418 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 4: Nurses United. And in order to talk about that, and 419 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 4: we're talking about that, I you know, okay, I shoul 420 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 4: I should should have ran this one through in my 421 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 4: head before we started this. But yeah, I'm here today 422 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 4: with John Jahad and Rosa to talk about Yeah, there's 423 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 4: slate movement thing I don't know called shift Change and 424 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 4: why they're running, how they met, et cetera, et cetera, 425 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 4: and yeah, some other stuff about the union. So all 426 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 4: three of you, welcome to the show. 427 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 6: Thank you, thank you, thank you for having us. 428 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I guess the place we should start for 429 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 4: this for so we we talked to shift Change last year, 430 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 4: but I think for people who don't remember that or 431 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 4: you know, I mean, it's been God, I don't know, 432 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 4: I don't know how long I've lost track of time. 433 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 4: Can you explain a bit about what you're running for, 434 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 4: and I mean specifically what it is, sort of how 435 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 4: it works. 436 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 7: I'll just start real quick, like in cases it's not clear. 437 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 7: We're all members of a large national nurses union called 438 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,439 Speaker 7: National Nurses United, and so we're from individual parts of 439 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 7: that union, which is kind of an umbrella over California 440 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 7: Nurses Association and National Nurses Organizing Committee, which I'm a 441 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 7: part of, Brazil as a part of Minnesota Nurses Association, 442 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 7: which jahead, is a part of NAISNA, which is New 443 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 7: York State nurs Association, which Sanya Green is a part of. 444 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 7: And then we also have Michigan Nurses Association and the 445 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 7: DC Nurses Association and our group shift Change is like 446 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 7: a caucus, which is like whenever workers instead of a 447 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 7: union get together because they want to change how the 448 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 7: union works. And we're running what's something called a slate 449 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 7: where we have to have groups of people running together 450 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 7: for specific union offices, and so we have a lot 451 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 7: of people running not just US three or US four 452 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 7: for the Council presidents, but we also have Canadas running 453 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 7: for the Board of Vice presidents and also delegates for 454 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 7: our convention. And hopefully that's a good basis for this 455 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 7: starting off the conversation. 456 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, so, I guess the first question I wanted to ask, 457 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 4: because I think this is an interesting story is how 458 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 4: did how did you meet? Because this is a mostly 459 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 4: a very different group of people from last time. 460 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 6: How did we meet? 461 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 4: Oh? 462 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 6: My, that is a good story. 463 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 8: So if you're not aware, or if you've been living 464 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 8: under a rock, you know there's there's a lot of 465 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 8: violence that's happening in the world, and specifically there's violence 466 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 8: that's happening in Palestine. And John, I and Jahad all 467 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 8: met as nurses who were looking to really be involved 468 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 8: in Palestine solidarity. 469 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 6: Work, and so we met on a space. 470 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 8: We connected there and you know, our politics pretty much 471 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 8: aligned that. 472 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 6: We believe that oppressed people should be liberated. 473 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 8: And that was one of the largest ways that we 474 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 8: met each other and we became I mean, I feel 475 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 8: like Jahad and John are part of my family. Definitely, 476 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 8: we have really connected on the solidarity front for that, 477 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 8: but also as nurses organizing and really seeing where the 478 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 8: false law fault lines are within our own union. 479 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 4: We haven't talked about specifically the nurses organizing has been 480 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 4: going on for Palestine and solidarity stuff on the show before. 481 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 4: It's really interesting. 482 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 9: Even though we haven't met in person yet. We're looking 483 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 9: forward to meeting in April at the Labor Notes conference. 484 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 9: But despite the fact that we haven't met in person, 485 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 9: there is a lot of chemistry among the group and 486 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 9: we have a lot of you know, similar visions, and 487 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 9: especially when it came to organizing for Palestine. So I 488 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 9: joined Resita and John and others and Nurses for Palestine 489 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 9: chat group and that group is active in highlighting the 490 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 9: suffering of the Palestinian people and the politics behind it 491 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 9: and how nurses can be in the front lines not 492 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 9: only to take care of patients, but also for other 493 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 9: healthcare workers around the world. And that's a huge part 494 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,479 Speaker 9: of this because this genocide that's going on has claimed 495 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 9: the lives of so many innocent civilians as well as 496 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 9: physicians and nurses and other healthcare workers, medics, etc. From 497 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 9: that big group, or almost you can call it national. 498 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 9: There are smaller chapters now in different cities. There's healthcare 499 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 9: Workers for Palestine twin cities where I am from, and 500 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 9: Chicago and San Francisco, and there's in Seattle and Boston. 501 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 9: There's a lot of movement among healthcare workers where they 502 00:30:53,880 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 9: focus their attention that hospitals, health care facilities, healthcare professionals 503 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 9: are not a target during a military conflict and all 504 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 9: the war crimes that have been committed need to be 505 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 9: answered for. So from that we kind of sprouted a 506 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 9: smaller group, and with the election coming up for the 507 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 9: National Nurses United, we thought we could take that more 508 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 9: of a like a grassroots movement to make a bigger change, 509 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 9: because we believe, you know, all these smaller changes in 510 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 9: the base should lead to a bigger change at the top, 511 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 9: and unions are the perfect example where we can affect 512 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 9: change and you know, have the politicians and all the 513 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 9: people up in the highest echelon powers if you will 514 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 9: listen and do what actually the base needs. And you know, 515 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 9: there's no better way of doing it but having your 516 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 9: own union representing what the nurses in the union want 517 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 9: and their policies and statements should reflect what the nurses need, 518 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 9: and that's what we're here, and that's why we call 519 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 9: ourselves Shift Change. 520 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 7: One thing I wanted to add on to that is that, 521 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 7: like when we first all came together, there was a 522 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 7: call from palsening trade unions to push our own trade 523 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 7: unions here in the US, which have historically not really 524 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 7: taken strong positions on things like international conflicts or you 525 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 7: know what's going on in Palestine in particular. And our 526 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 7: union just adopted BDS language within the last year, the 527 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 7: California nurs Association National Nurses Organizing Committee, and that took 528 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 7: an extraordinary amount of pressure from rank and file nurses 529 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 7: to get the leadership to agree that this was an 530 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 7: important stance. We noticed that unions had just gone through 531 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 7: democratic reform processes who have been taken over by rank 532 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 7: and file workers. UA with Sean Fayn had adopted much 533 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 7: more like much quickly, much more quickly resolutions in favor 534 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 7: of peace and ceasefire. And you know, as workers were 535 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 7: like against war of all kinds. And but in particular 536 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 7: this is like a particularly egregious situation where nurses have 537 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 7: borne the brunts of like all the healthcare workers who 538 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 7: are being targeted specifically, and palisfied in Gaza, the majority 539 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 7: of those of those healthcare workers are nurses, so we 540 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 7: believe there's a direct connection between you know, our work 541 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 7: here and the support of those nurses over there. And 542 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 7: I guess then going from that to leaning towards how 543 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 7: our building a democratic rank and file union. Not only 544 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 7: will it enact these be a way for us to 545 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 7: enact the kind of positive policy changes we want, but 546 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 7: it'll build a stronger union for everybody that we can 547 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 7: fight the bosses at the bedside making sure that our 548 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 7: patients are taking care of our communities. So I'll let it. 549 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 1: Go, you know. 550 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 4: So that's a bit of a segue into the next 551 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 4: thing I wanted to ask about, which was, Okay, so 552 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 4: you've talked about sort of you've talked about how you 553 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 4: all met through like Palcini salid Are you're organizing how 554 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 4: that's one of the important things for why y'all are 555 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 4: doing this. But I wanted to say, yeah, so if 556 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 4: you can go into more detail about the specific things 557 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 4: that brought you to running for this. 558 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 7: Rosita, why don't you give a little bit of an 559 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 7: account of your story of how you first heard about 560 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 7: shift changes like, I think, because I think that's kind 561 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:41,919 Speaker 7: of that I think that would be fun. 562 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 8: So I first heard of Shift Changed last year, and 563 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 8: you know, I was very apprehensive. 564 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 6: I was like, oh, wow, who's this new group that's 565 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 6: coming in? 566 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 8: And you know, I kept I was hearing from my 567 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 8: very own union that you know, there was a group 568 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,320 Speaker 8: out there that was challenging and that maybe had gotten 569 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 8: some things wrong, and you know, they just you know, 570 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 8: needed to kind of be put aside. And so I 571 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 8: did join one of the calls. There was an outreach 572 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 8: call to kind of figure out whose shift Change is, 573 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 8: and I thought it was pretty interesting. I thought, you know, 574 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 8: here are some very motivated union members who see that 575 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 8: there's something that needs to change within our union, which 576 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 8: is part of what we do as organizers. We see 577 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 8: that there may be something that needs to change even 578 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 8: within our own union, and we as rank and file, 579 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 8: or we as union members should be able to have 580 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 8: that voice to change it. And what I was seeing 581 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 8: was that their voice was being really suppressed. Instead of saying, hey, 582 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 8: how can we move towards what you're asking and really 583 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 8: come to a place where we can understand where you're 584 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,320 Speaker 8: coming from. Instead it was no We're not going to 585 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 8: listen to their voices. We're not going to you know, 586 00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 8: even engage with this group. They're this rogue group out 587 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 8: there that's like, you know, causing all this ruckus, which 588 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 8: makes me, you know, I'm somebody who loves and gravitates 589 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:07,280 Speaker 8: towards ruckus. 590 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 6: That's just my personality. So it just made me more curious. 591 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 8: And then, you know, when we started organizing for you know, 592 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 8: the Palestine Solidarity, John came in and I was like, 593 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 8: oh wait, I think I know this guy, like, you know, 594 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 8: he's one of those shift change guys. 595 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 6: And it just made me more curious. 596 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 8: And you know, we've had great conversations and I really 597 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 8: really understand, you know, the motivation, and because of some 598 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 8: things that have happened to me within our union that 599 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 8: has made me really recognize there are ways that we 600 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 8: can make positive changes for our union, and as organizers, 601 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 8: as nurses, we have to strive for those and we 602 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 8: have to have the ability to have our voices heard 603 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 8: and to motivate each other to make those changes. 604 00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 6: Because if we. 605 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 8: Are the union, then we should be able to change 606 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 8: our union towards what we want to see out of 607 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 8: our union. 608 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 6: And that's probably the most important thing. 609 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 7: I was gonna say, jahead, do you want to talk 610 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 7: a little bit about your experience with the Minnesota Nurse 611 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 7: Association strike in twenty twenty two and then watching the 612 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 7: Nurses Forward people, because I think that kind of ties in. 613 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 4: Well, sorry, before we do that, we have to do 614 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 4: an ad break before. I'm also gonna get yelled at 615 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 4: my bosses at break ay, ads, all right, we're back, 616 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 4: We're back from ads hell. 617 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do this. 618 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 9: I thought my two cents would be a good fit 619 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 9: after what Rusida just said. Everybody has their own unique 620 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 9: experience and how they became interested. I'm a member of 621 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 9: Minnesota Nurses Association and we went to unstrike two years 622 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 9: ago to request and demand better contract with the Fairview 623 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 9: system here in the Twin Cities area. Eventually there was 624 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,840 Speaker 9: a contract that it was ratified. After that there was 625 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 9: an election. And even though I'm a member, an active member, 626 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 9: I serve on some committees with M and A, and 627 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 9: recently I joined the Government Affairs Committee. You know, having 628 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:37,280 Speaker 9: been really engaged in the politics of the union until 629 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,839 Speaker 9: a new slate another troublemakers, if you will, another group 630 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 9: of troublemakers, you know, who call themselves Nurse Nurses Forward. 631 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 9: They ran against the current board and actually they won. 632 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 9: They won a landslide last November, and that was a 633 00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 9: huge change and an inspiration for me. Really rank and 634 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 9: file nurses and they're all, you know, nurses working the 635 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 9: on the floors, and I know some of them personally, 636 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 9: and I trusted these guys knew what they're talking about, 637 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 9: and they they were running on a platform that made 638 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 9: sense where all the rank and file nurses have a 639 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 9: say and they are well informed because there's a lot 640 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 9: of stuff that goes behind doors that nurses are not 641 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 9: brevy to and that, you know, makes things sound a 642 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:35,800 Speaker 9: little shady sometimes where you know, unions are, say, endorsing 643 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 9: a politician and this politician kind of drops the ball 644 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,440 Speaker 9: or does something that's not in the interest of the union, 645 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 9: and yet they're still supporting them. We need to know 646 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 9: why and how that came to be. So that kind 647 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 9: of gave me an inspiration and the moment John came 648 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 9: and recruited me, if you will, and I thought, sure, 649 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 9: you know, if we if we can do affects some 650 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 9: change in the local level, I think it's time to 651 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 9: change at the national level. So we're hoping for the 652 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 9: best here and we're trying to do our best to 653 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:12,280 Speaker 9: get a good result. 654 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I mean 655 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 4: that was some thing I remember from last time. Is 656 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 4: this this issue of transparency in this issue of the 657 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,919 Speaker 4: union acting. I don't know if autonomously is the right word, 658 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 4: but the union acting just sort of doing stuff that 659 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 4: members were just like finding out about afterwards. Yeah, and 660 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,840 Speaker 4: you know, I don't know, I think like that's on 661 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,280 Speaker 4: a kind of basic I mean, there's obviously a political 662 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 4: level to it, but on just the sort of basic 663 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 4: what is a union level, you would think that the 664 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 4: union wouldn't be doing that, and yet Comma, I was just. 665 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:52,839 Speaker 6: Going to comment on that. 666 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 8: I think one of the biggest parallels that I've been 667 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 8: able to see is, you know, we spend a lot 668 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 8: of time of our as nurses fighting against the hospital industry. 669 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 8: Right it's the big Boss, as we call it. You know, 670 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 8: we march on the Boss, or you know, we have 671 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 8: you know, rallies around it, or we do petitions, and 672 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 8: you know, we're constantly fighting this big entity of the 673 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 8: hospital industry, which oftentimes keeps us in the dark about 674 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,759 Speaker 8: policies or about changes that they're making or you know, 675 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,360 Speaker 8: various things, and I can't help but to see the 676 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 8: parallels between our fight with the hospital industry and then 677 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 8: comes our. 678 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:30,840 Speaker 6: Fight with our own union. 679 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,680 Speaker 8: So you know, how can we within our union change 680 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 8: that so that we're not seeing both entities as the same. 681 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 8: I don't want to be in a union that I 682 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:47,080 Speaker 8: also am feeling is the same entity that we are 683 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 8: fighting a bedside. So that transparency for us is extremely important. 684 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,840 Speaker 8: That autonomy, that accountability is extremely important, because why should 685 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,800 Speaker 8: we be having two parallel fights with our own union 686 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:02,720 Speaker 8: and with the hospital industry. 687 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 7: I was just going to say, like that the that's 688 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 7: what the what inspired us the first time around was 689 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 7: that it felt like we were struggling both against Like 690 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,880 Speaker 7: you've got to fight against management. Why do I have 691 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 7: to also at the same time turn around and fight 692 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,440 Speaker 7: like with union staff about basic stuff. That's like all 693 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,320 Speaker 7: they have to do is like nurses are really smart. 694 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 7: I know, it's hard, Like it's a shocking idea that 695 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 7: nurses might know a thing or two and the idea 696 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 7: that we that they have to come up and focus 697 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,439 Speaker 7: group amongst themselves to tell us what our values are. 698 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 1: Right, Like I think I. 699 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 7: Can walk around my unit and I can tell I 700 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,719 Speaker 7: can find out what nurses values are real fast. I mean, 701 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,399 Speaker 7: we may not all agree on every single thing, right, 702 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 7: there's a there's a pretty wide amount of ideological like 703 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 7: alignment in our union. We're not all we're not all 704 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 7: in locks up about everything except for how important it 705 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 7: is that nurses are actually leading and driving how the 706 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 7: union works. And so we have you know, the main 707 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 7: core thing. And I think this is what's so important 708 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,000 Speaker 7: about union organizing in particular, is that you can set 709 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,360 Speaker 7: aside disagreements on one thing and you focus on the 710 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 7: thing that's the that's your can your shared material interest 711 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,360 Speaker 7: regardless because we all do the same kind of work. 712 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:26,320 Speaker 7: It's really important. 713 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's and that. Yeah, but that also makes 714 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 4: it doubly important that the institution that you're using to 715 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 4: do this is actually doing the things you wanted to 716 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 4: do when not fighting you at every step. One of 717 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,759 Speaker 4: the things that you mentioned we were talking about this 718 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:45,719 Speaker 4: was how this kind of stuff in the union was 719 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 4: impacting Powsinian solidarity organizing. I was wondering if you could 720 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 4: talk a bit about that. 721 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,319 Speaker 8: Oh, I can, I can take that and then and 722 00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,359 Speaker 8: Johad can actually add into it. 723 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 6: But so I was part of Social Justice Committee. 724 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,279 Speaker 8: I was actually the chair for the entire California for 725 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,640 Speaker 8: n and U. And one of the biggest things is, 726 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 8: you know, of course we're speaking out for our communities, 727 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 8: we're speaking out for oppression, against oppression, and specifically for 728 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,400 Speaker 8: marginalized communities. So I thought it would be pretty easy 729 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,360 Speaker 8: for us to align ourselves with our resolutions that we 730 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,880 Speaker 8: had just passed. And actually October the eighth of twenty 731 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 8: twenty three, and I. 732 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,480 Speaker 6: Ran across a lot of barriers. 733 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:39,160 Speaker 8: I wanted our union, my union, to put out a 734 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 8: statement about a ceasefire, and to put out a statement 735 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 8: about how bombing hospitals and killing our healthcare worker colleagues 736 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 8: was wrong. And I was constantly, you know, barriers were 737 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,719 Speaker 8: put up. I was told I could not throw, I 738 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,359 Speaker 8: could not do a vigil, I could not initiate, that 739 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,239 Speaker 8: I could not to speak on behalf of me being 740 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:07,840 Speaker 8: a nurse, and so that infuriated me. I felt really 741 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 8: really betrayed by my union that we had just signed 742 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:16,920 Speaker 8: all these resolutions specifically talking about aggression, talking about aparthei, 743 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:18,920 Speaker 8: and yet I was being told that I could not 744 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,880 Speaker 8: speak up and then I was ghosted on a few times. 745 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 8: I would start sending emails. I was like, hey, what's 746 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:26,040 Speaker 8: you know going on? How come I can't do this? 747 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 8: And there would be no answer. Or I would say, hey, 748 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:29,960 Speaker 8: I want to do a vigil. Nope, you can't do 749 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,880 Speaker 8: a vigil. Nope, there's no signs that you can use. Nope, nope, no. 750 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,000 Speaker 8: And so I just kept getting all these no answers, 751 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 8: and a few of us got together, we got a 752 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,359 Speaker 8: petition going, and we sent it in. We're like, hey, look, 753 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,040 Speaker 8: these are all the reasons why we as nurses feel 754 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,200 Speaker 8: that we should be speaking out against what's happening right now. 755 00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 6: And this is even in the early times. 756 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,440 Speaker 8: Even you know, really in you know, the end of October, 757 00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:55,799 Speaker 8: beginning of the next month, and you know, it took 758 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:57,600 Speaker 8: them a long time to get it out, and it 759 00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:01,160 Speaker 8: was a very middle of the road statement. At that time, 760 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,360 Speaker 8: I had asked the Union to sign on and endorse 761 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,640 Speaker 8: one of the largest and one of the first union 762 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,359 Speaker 8: rallies in support of Palestine that had been called by 763 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:14,440 Speaker 8: the Palestinian trade unions specifically for us to rally around, 764 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 8: and they refused, And on that morning I submitted publicly 765 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 8: my resignation to the Racial Social Justice Committee. I felt 766 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,640 Speaker 8: that it was an absolute dishonor for me to sit 767 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,680 Speaker 8: in that position and to be the face of a 768 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,560 Speaker 8: committee that says it stands for social justice and yet 769 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,440 Speaker 8: was putting up barriers for us to speak out as nurses. 770 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,200 Speaker 6: And that really was a huge deal for me. 771 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,480 Speaker 8: It was a huge deal for many other people that 772 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,239 Speaker 8: saw that as a gesture of solidarity. 773 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:50,319 Speaker 6: But it was more. 774 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,120 Speaker 8: It was about my ethics and it was about my 775 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:57,400 Speaker 8: moral standing. I could not legitimately sit in that position 776 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:11,600 Speaker 8: while my union was stifling and censoring my voice. 777 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:14,640 Speaker 4: It's a brief thing that you'd take a stand like that, 778 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,359 Speaker 4: and it's also it's the right thing to do, and 779 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:18,960 Speaker 4: you should never have had to do this in the 780 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:24,040 Speaker 4: first place, like Jesus Christ. Oh, I don't know, I mean, 781 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:30,360 Speaker 4: I don't know. It's just deeply and incredibly frustrating, like 782 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:36,480 Speaker 4: just hearing hearing that and watching them just like ignore, 783 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:38,799 Speaker 4: ignore the things that they ignore, the resolutions that they 784 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:43,520 Speaker 4: just passed, and I don't know, that's absolutely terrible. I 785 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:49,840 Speaker 4: hope they lose hipocrisy much. Yeah. 786 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,440 Speaker 9: Yeah, Well, if I may add to what Rosita has 787 00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,680 Speaker 9: just said, First of all I have to say, Rosita 788 00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,279 Speaker 9: is the bravest person I know, and what her positions 789 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:04,000 Speaker 9: and her ethics are of the highest caliber. So I'm 790 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,680 Speaker 9: honored to be running with her during this time. You know, 791 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:13,520 Speaker 9: from example here in Minnesota, you know nurses as part 792 00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:17,200 Speaker 9: of the government Affairs committee I was involved in. I 793 00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,040 Speaker 9: came kind of toward the end, so I can't take 794 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,480 Speaker 9: credit for it, but it was the keeping nurses at 795 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:27,720 Speaker 9: the bedside bill. It was. It was adopted, was passed 796 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,480 Speaker 9: the House. Now in Minnesota we have all three branches 797 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:35,400 Speaker 9: basically in the hands of Democrats. It passed the House 798 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,360 Speaker 9: and the Senate, and yet the governor vetoed it. Why 799 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:44,000 Speaker 9: because there was pressure from corporate you know, the big 800 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,720 Speaker 9: wigs told him, if you do it, we're gonna pull 801 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,080 Speaker 9: some investment or something, or I don't know, maybe we 802 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,960 Speaker 9: won't have you on the board after you retire, something 803 00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,239 Speaker 9: like that. So I don't know, but that kind of 804 00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:01,960 Speaker 9: triggered us. It was really stabbing the back, if you will. 805 00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,680 Speaker 9: But it's still you know, the union itself could do better. 806 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:10,080 Speaker 9: It can be more sensitive to its members' needs and 807 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,360 Speaker 9: their demands. For example, we were trying to get a 808 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:18,520 Speaker 9: resolution or a statement it was back in October about 809 00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 9: a ceasefire here through the union, even though it's I 810 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,960 Speaker 9: would say, inconsequential for them to say, but they even 811 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:30,960 Speaker 9: refused to hear the suggestion or the movement to issue 812 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:35,160 Speaker 9: a statement that was the old board. Towards the end 813 00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 9: of the of the reign of the old board, there 814 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,959 Speaker 9: was more effort. I think it was mid December and 815 00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:49,000 Speaker 9: a week really watered down resolution was adopted calling few 816 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,799 Speaker 9: seas fire the new board team and the first or 817 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,479 Speaker 9: second meeting in January. In February there was a much 818 00:49:56,520 --> 00:50:01,600 Speaker 9: more robust resolution that was adapted at a much higher 819 00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:08,799 Speaker 9: you know, NAIs against versus yes versus names in that 820 00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,200 Speaker 9: there was no needs. Actually there were some abstentions like 821 00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:18,480 Speaker 9: three out of fourteen, so you know there is a movement. 822 00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:23,000 Speaker 9: There's a grassroots rank and file nurses who are pushing 823 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,400 Speaker 9: towards change the same thing. I'm also not only a nurse, 824 00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:30,880 Speaker 9: but also a nursing faculty at Minnesota State University in Makato, 825 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:36,239 Speaker 9: and I belong to another union, the faculty Union. In 826 00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:40,200 Speaker 9: the very beginning, there was just kind of deafening silence. 827 00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,880 Speaker 9: Nobody wants to hear anything. It reminded me of the 828 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,280 Speaker 9: period after nine to eleven. If you speak anything against 829 00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,120 Speaker 9: the government or anything real critique what the government did 830 00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,680 Speaker 9: or didn't do, you are on the other side. You know, 831 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,600 Speaker 9: remember that if you're not with us, you are against 832 00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,640 Speaker 9: us argument, and it's the same thing. 833 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:01,840 Speaker 5: It was the same thing here. 834 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:04,399 Speaker 9: I know people who lost their jobs because they were 835 00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:09,080 Speaker 9: speaking out for Palestine or against the atrocities that these 836 00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:13,799 Speaker 9: radis were committing. And that's from within unions and healthcare organizations. 837 00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,239 Speaker 9: People who lost their livelihoods because of it, and they 838 00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,520 Speaker 9: are labeled as anti Semitic or anything like that. So 839 00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,080 Speaker 9: they were trying to kind of silence people, scare them 840 00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:28,400 Speaker 9: with all these labels and you know, illegitimate ways of 841 00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:33,640 Speaker 9: really conducting a civil discourse or having someone hear a 842 00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:39,080 Speaker 9: different point of view. So, you know, from that sprouted 843 00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:43,880 Speaker 9: this huge movement among nurses and healthcare professionals that we 844 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:48,040 Speaker 9: want this to go wider, even at the national level 845 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:52,400 Speaker 9: during the primaries, where a lot of organizing was happening 846 00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:57,400 Speaker 9: for you know, uncommitted votes for the primaries for Joe Biden, 847 00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:01,560 Speaker 9: and that made them feel uh, you know, the pressure 848 00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,760 Speaker 9: and as you can see, the US vetoed a ceasefire 849 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,280 Speaker 9: resolution I think three times before, and yet this week 850 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,520 Speaker 9: they allowed one to pass because there is a lot 851 00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,160 Speaker 9: of political pressure because they are they are doing their 852 00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,279 Speaker 9: own calculation, I understand, but it's still there is a 853 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:21,160 Speaker 9: grassroot movement that affects this change. 854 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,239 Speaker 7: I just want to tie in, like everything that we're 855 00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:29,399 Speaker 7: saying around organizing, because I think so much a lot 856 00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:31,480 Speaker 7: of people come to unions with the idea that this 857 00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,880 Speaker 7: is how they you know, you get a chance to 858 00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,279 Speaker 7: build a platform to make a case for the right policies, right, 859 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,839 Speaker 7: and we you know, we push things through legislation and 860 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:47,360 Speaker 7: lobbying and then for some reason, like a governor decides 861 00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,160 Speaker 7: that they're not going to pass it. You know, our union, 862 00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:54,120 Speaker 7: like my part of the union, California Association National Nurses 863 00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:58,759 Speaker 7: Organizing Committee, this is redda's Part two was at one 864 00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,799 Speaker 7: point powerful, like was so organized and so powerful that 865 00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,200 Speaker 7: they forced the state of California, which is one of 866 00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:09,000 Speaker 7: the largest economies in the world, to pass a ratio 867 00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:14,240 Speaker 7: bill that was you know that the Arnold Schwarzenegger, the governor, 868 00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:16,920 Speaker 7: after what was passed that you know, those little nurses. 869 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,279 Speaker 7: I can't believe we're letting them do this. You know, 870 00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,359 Speaker 7: our union at one point was powerful enough to help 871 00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:26,560 Speaker 7: end Arnold Schwarzenegger's political career. And so when we talk 872 00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:30,960 Speaker 7: about getting things passed, it requires a lot of power, 873 00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:33,760 Speaker 7: and a lot of people don't understand the power means 874 00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:38,600 Speaker 7: getting people together to commit to take collective action. That 875 00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:42,040 Speaker 7: might mean occupying a capital, that might mean doing things 876 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,040 Speaker 7: that are a little bit outside the law right, but 877 00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,160 Speaker 7: we understand that if we don't have the power, then 878 00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,400 Speaker 7: none of these you know, ideal, idealistic things that we 879 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,120 Speaker 7: want to have see change in the world or happened 880 00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:58,239 Speaker 7: in the world can happen. And we've seen when we're 881 00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:00,560 Speaker 7: talking about this idea. If you're either with it's against 882 00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:04,440 Speaker 7: us or against us people who are advocating for building 883 00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:08,399 Speaker 7: that power, and that power comes through defending our contracts, 884 00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,799 Speaker 7: defending our coworkers to grieve inspits, making sure that we 885 00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:16,440 Speaker 7: are taking aggressive like action when it comes to strikes, 886 00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,520 Speaker 7: and getting a strong contract language. In the first place. 887 00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:23,160 Speaker 7: People who are advocating for that are being labeled like 888 00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:27,319 Speaker 7: the enemy inside a union. It's very difficult when you 889 00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:30,680 Speaker 7: put so much of your time and energy into union work, 890 00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:34,239 Speaker 7: which anyone who's a committed unionist can tell you of 891 00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:37,120 Speaker 7: all the countless amounts of their free time that they 892 00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,399 Speaker 7: spend away from their family, away from their friends, away 893 00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,040 Speaker 7: from their kids, doing the work of making sure that 894 00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,960 Speaker 7: the union is strong. To be kind of accused of 895 00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:49,239 Speaker 7: being not on the team right, or not being for 896 00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:53,920 Speaker 7: everyone else, not being a team player, when you're always committed, 897 00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,560 Speaker 7: you know, to building the power of the team. I mean, 898 00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,040 Speaker 7: this is why we're running is because those of us 899 00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,560 Speaker 7: who are making the case that we need to be 900 00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,440 Speaker 7: an organized union. We need a union full of people 901 00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:09,479 Speaker 7: who know how to how to fight, how to push back, 902 00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,399 Speaker 7: how to stand up for those of us who might 903 00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:17,080 Speaker 7: be weaker than others. To be labeled troublemakers or pains 904 00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:19,720 Speaker 7: in the ads, or they even call us anti union 905 00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,879 Speaker 7: or union busting, which is really just it hurts, right, 906 00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:27,480 Speaker 7: It's very stressful, but it's worth it to us because 907 00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:31,759 Speaker 7: our principles and our commitment to our coworkers and building 908 00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:35,919 Speaker 7: a workplace that's a just place, a place that takes 909 00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:38,680 Speaker 7: care of all the people in our communities, people who 910 00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:42,200 Speaker 7: would otherwise be denied the care that they deserve. We 911 00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,680 Speaker 7: know that we can only do that by being organized, 912 00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:50,239 Speaker 7: building relationships and taking action together as a union to fight. 913 00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:53,120 Speaker 7: And we know what that looks like. We have members 914 00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,239 Speaker 7: of Shift Change who have been there when they've been 915 00:55:55,840 --> 00:56:00,600 Speaker 7: occupying capital buildings, running politicians out of office. I want 916 00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,080 Speaker 7: our union to be I tell everybody this. I want 917 00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,680 Speaker 7: our union to be strong and powerful, and I want 918 00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:07,600 Speaker 7: it to be frightening to people who stand in the 919 00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:11,440 Speaker 7: way of nurses and our patients. And this is all connected. 920 00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:14,840 Speaker 7: You know what we see, you know our government willing 921 00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:18,360 Speaker 7: to let happen to people halfway across the world. I 922 00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,680 Speaker 7: always tell people my coworkers, you know what we let 923 00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:24,879 Speaker 7: our bosses get away with the least of us, it'll 924 00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:26,680 Speaker 7: do to any of us if they had the chance. 925 00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:31,200 Speaker 7: And so all of us come from the point of 926 00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:34,080 Speaker 7: view that we have to build our power. That power 927 00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:37,160 Speaker 7: has to be you know, honed through our fights at 928 00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:38,520 Speaker 7: our work, making sure. 929 00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:38,759 Speaker 5: That our. 930 00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:43,040 Speaker 7: Working conditions are good, because we know when nurses have 931 00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:46,120 Speaker 7: good working conditions, patients get the care they need. And 932 00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:48,719 Speaker 7: when we're powerful and strong at the bedside, we can 933 00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:50,680 Speaker 7: be powerful and strong out in the community where we 934 00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:52,560 Speaker 7: need to take our fights. When we want to make 935 00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:56,040 Speaker 7: the world a better place for everybody. You know, I 936 00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:59,960 Speaker 7: don't think there's any coincidence that you know, Razita is, 937 00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:03,800 Speaker 7: you know, an indigenous woman. Her family's from refugees from 938 00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:07,600 Speaker 7: American foreign policy broad she had learned to be a 939 00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:14,000 Speaker 7: nurse in Gaza. Zenia's family it's from the Dominican Republic. 940 00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:18,480 Speaker 7: Her family like fled like a US back dictator there, Trahiro, 941 00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:21,680 Speaker 7: And I don't think that there's any to me, there's no, 942 00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:26,080 Speaker 7: it's not a coincidence that we're all here doing this 943 00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:28,520 Speaker 7: work of building the kind of powerful union that we 944 00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,960 Speaker 7: know that all of our coworkers deserve, that our communities deserve, 945 00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:34,800 Speaker 7: the whole world deserves. 946 00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:37,680 Speaker 6: Four troublemakers. 947 00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:43,800 Speaker 7: Oh yeah, someone, someone smarter than me, once said this one. 948 00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:50,680 Speaker 9: Didn't someone say once that they've been called MAGA supporters 949 00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:51,120 Speaker 9: or something. 950 00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:55,400 Speaker 7: They were telling everybody that we were, uh, you know, weird, 951 00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:59,760 Speaker 7: right wing, trumpy people. And I think that anyone who 952 00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:05,120 Speaker 7: knows any of us but know that that is this 953 00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:06,280 Speaker 7: the truth. 954 00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:08,920 Speaker 1: But it is what it is. 955 00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:11,200 Speaker 7: You know, the people will say whatever they have to 956 00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:15,760 Speaker 7: say to scare people away from us, because that's easier 957 00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:19,000 Speaker 7: than doing the right thing, which is to make sure 958 00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:24,280 Speaker 7: that our union is a bottom up movement led by nurses. 959 00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:28,000 Speaker 7: They're very afraid of us doing getting our stuff together 960 00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:32,320 Speaker 7: because there's you know, there's always it's easier to get 961 00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:33,919 Speaker 7: along with the boss and it is to get along 962 00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:36,160 Speaker 7: with your coworkers sometimes. I think anyone will tell you 963 00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,520 Speaker 7: that as long as that we all know people who 964 00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:40,480 Speaker 7: are friends with the boss, because that's an easy thing 965 00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:43,080 Speaker 7: to be. It's hard to stick up for people who 966 00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,440 Speaker 7: otherwise can't stick up for themselves. 967 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,800 Speaker 6: Just in the in the you know, for our elections. 968 00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:54,280 Speaker 8: So the fact that we're even running our union doesn't 969 00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:57,120 Speaker 8: want everyone to know about elections, and the way that 970 00:58:57,480 --> 00:58:59,560 Speaker 8: it's kind of we just give you the list that 971 00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:01,720 Speaker 8: we're going to endorse, just vote for them, and no 972 00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:05,480 Speaker 8: questions asked. That that's just how it should be. So 973 00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:07,200 Speaker 8: the fact that, you know, there's not a lot of 974 00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:09,880 Speaker 8: information about the elections that go on in the N 975 00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:11,960 Speaker 8: and U. What does it mean? What does it mean 976 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,640 Speaker 8: to be in, you know, in a Council of Presidents? 977 00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:17,400 Speaker 8: What does it even mean to be a delegate? We 978 00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:21,640 Speaker 8: are often spoon fed the delegate position, just be a 979 00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:25,000 Speaker 8: delegate and then not told exactly what that means. What 980 00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,440 Speaker 8: does that mean for us? What does that mean in 981 00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:29,880 Speaker 8: our resolutions? What does that mean when we go to convention? 982 00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:32,880 Speaker 8: Those things should not be a mystery to us. We 983 00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:36,000 Speaker 8: shouldn't have to poke in prod to get that information 984 00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:38,600 Speaker 8: about elections, and so that's also one of the things 985 00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:41,320 Speaker 8: that we're trying to highlight as well. We should be 986 00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:45,560 Speaker 8: very informed. And I think that's also another parallel between 987 00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:49,640 Speaker 8: our US government who chooses you know, they kind of 988 00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:52,320 Speaker 8: sometimes expect us not to go to the polls because 989 00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:56,560 Speaker 8: it works in their favor, to not be informed voters 990 00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,280 Speaker 8: because it works in their favor. So we can kind 991 00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:01,200 Speaker 8: of see that same parallel, and that's one of the 992 01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:03,960 Speaker 8: things that you know, I think John has made a 993 01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:08,040 Speaker 8: great way of highlighting that and has really essentially, you know, 994 01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:11,040 Speaker 8: paved the way for making that information known as well 995 01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:14,200 Speaker 8: as Zenya Zenia is. Can I say this, she's a 996 01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:18,760 Speaker 8: full badass because she she her and John, like I 997 01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:20,960 Speaker 8: have to say, like, they are so on it of 998 01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:24,880 Speaker 8: getting that information out, and it's extremely important because we 999 01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:27,000 Speaker 8: want our nurses to be informed, we want all of 1000 01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:27,880 Speaker 8: us to be informed. 1001 01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:31,600 Speaker 4: Yeah. So on that note, when is the election and 1002 01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:33,240 Speaker 4: if you're in the Union, how do you vote? 1003 01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,800 Speaker 7: Ballots go out April fifth, we have to have you 1004 01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:42,480 Speaker 7: have to have your ballot in Oakland in the office 1005 01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:46,760 Speaker 7: by May. We're telling people May seventeenth, because they're going 1006 01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:51,080 Speaker 7: to be counted the morning of May eighteenth. You will 1007 01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:54,040 Speaker 7: get if you are a member, a duce paying member 1008 01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:57,960 Speaker 7: in good standing, you will get a ballot in the mail. 1009 01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:00,760 Speaker 7: But we are also telling people because we are finding 1010 01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:04,320 Speaker 7: that there's kind of like two lists of people, you know, 1011 01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:08,160 Speaker 7: in particularly our VA nurses. VA nurses are telling us 1012 01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:11,560 Speaker 7: that they have not been getting bad they didn't get 1013 01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:15,760 Speaker 7: ballots last election, and so we're encouraging everyone to send 1014 01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:20,360 Speaker 7: emails to the election officers to get a ballot if 1015 01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:23,480 Speaker 7: you haven't gotten one, to make sure that those lists. 1016 01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:26,560 Speaker 7: There's a list of people paying dues and they faithfully 1017 01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:29,680 Speaker 7: take your dues out of your out of your check, 1018 01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:32,640 Speaker 7: and then there's a list of people who receive ballots. 1019 01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:36,320 Speaker 7: You know, definitely very normal and cool, the sort of 1020 01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,760 Speaker 7: thing that we expect from any sort of union, that is, 1021 01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:43,520 Speaker 7: you know, buying for the nurses. And so we have 1022 01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:48,320 Speaker 7: an election email. Can I does anyone have that off 1023 01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:49,600 Speaker 7: top of their heads? I will pull it up real 1024 01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:50,920 Speaker 7: quick as we were talking. 1025 01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:53,200 Speaker 4: That's fine, we'll just we'll just show notes. 1026 01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:56,480 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, it will be in the description. 1027 01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:00,120 Speaker 9: And in the meantime, you know, people can go to 1028 01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:02,440 Speaker 9: our website. We have a website where you can read 1029 01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:07,920 Speaker 9: about our story, our philosophy, our platform, you know, all 1030 01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:11,000 Speaker 9: the things that people should know and how to request 1031 01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:14,080 Speaker 9: the ballot and how to email the union and everything. 1032 01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:18,320 Speaker 9: The address is shift change and you one word dot org. 1033 01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:23,480 Speaker 4: Awesome. Yeah, thank you, thank you three so much for 1034 01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:28,160 Speaker 4: coming on the show. And hope, hope you beat them. 1035 01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:32,240 Speaker 7: I'm looking forward to us having a vigor where we can. 1036 01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:34,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm excited. 1037 01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:39,360 Speaker 6: Thank you, thank you for having us think you appreciate it. 1038 01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:44,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, and the cerpanicett appened here you too, also listen, 1039 01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:48,680 Speaker 4: dear listener, can go make trouble for your bosses, your 1040 01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:51,400 Speaker 4: political leaders and people in your union if they're not 1041 01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:52,360 Speaker 4: doing what you wanted to do. 1042 01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:55,520 Speaker 9: Hell yeah, absolutely. 1043 01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:11,200 Speaker 10: Hello, and welcome to it could happen here. A podcast 1044 01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:14,120 Speaker 10: about things falling apart and how we try to put 1045 01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:17,560 Speaker 10: things back together again. It's sort of the Humpty Dumpty 1046 01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:20,920 Speaker 10: of podcasts. And of course, all the King's horses and 1047 01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:23,040 Speaker 10: all the kings men can't put us back together again 1048 01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:26,080 Speaker 10: because the attendance of power will never solve our problems 1049 01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:28,440 Speaker 10: for us. It's up to us to collectively solve our 1050 01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:33,200 Speaker 10: own problems. I'm your guest host with all the dramatic metaphors, 1051 01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:38,800 Speaker 10: Margaret Gildoy. Today it's one of those things falling apart episodes. 1052 01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:41,520 Speaker 10: Today we're going to be talking about the Kinsey Institute 1053 01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:45,240 Speaker 10: for Research and Sex, Gender, and Reproduction, a research institute 1054 01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:49,400 Speaker 10: in Bloomington, Indiana. Its mission is to quote foster and 1055 01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:54,640 Speaker 10: promote a greater understanding of human sexuality and relationships to research, outreach, education, 1056 01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:59,920 Speaker 10: and historical preservation. The Kinsey Institute in many ways is 1057 01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:04,240 Speaker 10: just a sexual research center. It's the sexual research Center. 1058 01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:07,720 Speaker 10: We're going to be talking to Dev Montonez, who last 1059 01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:10,560 Speaker 10: week gave me a tour of the center. But first 1060 01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:15,120 Speaker 10: being me, I want to give you all context. I'm 1061 01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:17,600 Speaker 10: going to talk about history. I'm going to talk about 1062 01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:22,320 Speaker 10: a different institute for sexual research called well, the Institute 1063 01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:25,920 Speaker 10: for Sexual Research, except it was in Berlin from nineteen 1064 01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:28,960 Speaker 10: nineteen to nineteen thirty three, so they called it the 1065 01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:33,400 Speaker 10: Institute for Sexual Wiston Shaft History sometimes remembers it as 1066 01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:38,760 Speaker 10: Hirschfeld's Institute after Magnus Hirschfeld, the director of it. For 1067 01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:43,720 Speaker 10: fourteen years, the institute researched human sexuality. They offered consulting 1068 01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:46,720 Speaker 10: on matters of sex to straight and gay people. They 1069 01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:51,000 Speaker 10: pioneered a ton of transsexual medical practices, including pushing for 1070 01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:54,200 Speaker 10: the shocking at the time idea that trans people are 1071 01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:57,800 Speaker 10: happier if we're just allowed to socially transition and live 1072 01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:01,880 Speaker 10: as our preferred gender, which they observed led to a 1073 01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:06,360 Speaker 10: dramatic drop in suicide rates. This is medical practice that 1074 01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:09,080 Speaker 10: has continued, and we have more and more research about 1075 01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:13,960 Speaker 10: that to this day. The institute coined the terms transvestite 1076 01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:18,120 Speaker 10: and transsexual. They performed the first gender confirmation surgery in 1077 01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:21,680 Speaker 10: known history on a woman named Dora Richter in nineteen thirty. 1078 01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:27,360 Speaker 10: They worked alongside pro homosexual advocacy groups. Germany led the 1079 01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:31,360 Speaker 10: Western world in acceptance of LGBT folks in the nineteen 1080 01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:35,280 Speaker 10: twenties and early nineteen thirties. It was founded by three 1081 01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:39,520 Speaker 10: Jewish researchers, the most famous of whom is the director, 1082 01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:45,240 Speaker 10: Magnus Hirschfeld. The institute itself, however, is famous today for 1083 01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:50,440 Speaker 10: one thing. Imagine a picture of a book burning. The 1084 01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:53,200 Speaker 10: first picture that comes to your mind is probably black 1085 01:05:53,240 --> 01:05:57,040 Speaker 10: and white, and it's of Nazis. This photo is used 1086 01:05:57,080 --> 01:06:00,360 Speaker 10: any time someone wants to say something like the are 1087 01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:04,919 Speaker 10: bad they burned books. What usually goes on said when 1088 01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:08,880 Speaker 10: this photo is reproduced is what books those Nazis were burning. 1089 01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:14,520 Speaker 10: They were burning the institute on May sixth, nineteen thirty three, 1090 01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:18,960 Speaker 10: Nazis burned around twenty thousand books, destroying endless amounts of 1091 01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:25,240 Speaker 10: research into homosexuality, transsexuality, and cross dressing. Joseph Goebbels, the 1092 01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:28,200 Speaker 10: chief propagandist of the Nazis, was present. He gave a 1093 01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:32,320 Speaker 10: speech to forty thousand people during that book burning, so 1094 01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:37,120 Speaker 10: ended the Institute for Sexual Research. The first trans woman 1095 01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:41,439 Speaker 10: to undergo gender confirmation surgery, Dora Richter. She was either 1096 01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:44,200 Speaker 10: killed in this attack or she was arrested and died 1097 01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:49,520 Speaker 10: in prison shortly thereafter. Her exact fate is unknown. Magnus 1098 01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:51,840 Speaker 10: himself was out of the country at the time, and 1099 01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:56,800 Speaker 10: he never returned. He died in exile in France. This, 1100 01:06:57,160 --> 01:06:59,360 Speaker 10: I believe, is the context we need to hold onto 1101 01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:01,840 Speaker 10: when we talk about the Kinsey Institute, when we talk 1102 01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:05,160 Speaker 10: about what they're facing today, as we watch people running 1103 01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:08,680 Speaker 10: for office in this country. Wielding flamethrowers to burn books 1104 01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:12,720 Speaker 10: and campaign ads, while librarians face criminal penalties for making 1105 01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:17,240 Speaker 10: books available to students. Eventually, the Nazis were defeated, of course, 1106 01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:20,080 Speaker 10: they were defeated through force of arms, after great loss 1107 01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:23,560 Speaker 10: of life and a coming together of ideological enemies like 1108 01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:30,000 Speaker 10: capitalists and authoritarian communists. Shortly thereafter, in nineteen forty seven, 1109 01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:35,600 Speaker 10: a bisexual, polyamorous sexologist named Alfred Charles Kinsey founded his 1110 01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:39,680 Speaker 10: own Institute for Sex Research at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana, 1111 01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:44,240 Speaker 10: seventy seven years ago for those keeping track. Thereafter, he 1112 01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:48,560 Speaker 10: produced work that's foundational to modern sexology. Most famous today 1113 01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:52,200 Speaker 10: is the Kinsey Scale, which broke homosexuality and heterosexuality out 1114 01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:55,680 Speaker 10: of a binary. Maybe the most famous at the time 1115 01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:58,160 Speaker 10: of his work, though, was his nineteen forty eight book 1116 01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:02,120 Speaker 10: Sexual Behavior and the Human in his later book Sexual 1117 01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:05,600 Speaker 10: Behavior in the Human Female, which are often called the 1118 01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:10,320 Speaker 10: Kinsey Reports, which offered groundbreaking analysis like it turns out 1119 01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:14,240 Speaker 10: women and joy sex also, and also that thirty seven 1120 01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:19,080 Speaker 10: percent of men had had quote overt homosexual experience to orgasm, 1121 01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:23,120 Speaker 10: which shocked the hell out of the world. Well, it 1122 01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:28,080 Speaker 10: probably shocked about sixty seven percent of the world. Since then, 1123 01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:31,200 Speaker 10: the Kinsey Institute has been one of the premier sexology 1124 01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:35,040 Speaker 10: research institutes and archives in the world, and now in 1125 01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:37,880 Speaker 10: the twenty twenties, it finds itself at the center of 1126 01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:41,880 Speaker 10: a culture war and conservative backlash. For decades, the right 1127 01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:44,559 Speaker 10: wing has tried and failed to find evidence that Kinsey 1128 01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:48,880 Speaker 10: himself was a pedophile. Last February, the Republican government of 1129 01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:53,479 Speaker 10: Indiana voted for House Bill one thousand and one, which 1130 01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:57,519 Speaker 10: bars state money from funding the institute. To tell us 1131 01:08:57,520 --> 01:09:00,000 Speaker 10: what's happened with that, what the future of the institute 1132 01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:03,120 Speaker 10: it is likely to be, and how all this ties 1133 01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:05,880 Speaker 10: into the culture wars that we're living through Right now, 1134 01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:10,000 Speaker 10: we have Dev Montanez, the ADMIN coordinator of the institute 1135 01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:16,400 Speaker 10: and a student at Indiana University. Hi, Dev, Hey, thanks 1136 01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:17,479 Speaker 10: for listening to my long intro. 1137 01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:22,479 Speaker 5: It's good for me to know some of the history 1138 01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:25,160 Speaker 5: behind the place that I'm at forty hours a week. 1139 01:09:28,320 --> 01:09:31,559 Speaker 10: So could you introduce yourself about a little bit about 1140 01:09:31,560 --> 01:09:34,640 Speaker 10: the work that you do at the institute? And I 1141 01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:40,640 Speaker 10: don't know maybe what brought you there, but just yeah. 1142 01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:43,800 Speaker 5: So I started back in early twenty twenty two as 1143 01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:46,639 Speaker 5: kind of the person who was spearheading the seventy fifth 1144 01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:53,360 Speaker 5: anniversary celebrations that we were going to have. And I 1145 01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:55,839 Speaker 5: am lucky enough that I have a background in DIY 1146 01:09:55,880 --> 01:10:00,920 Speaker 5: punk and so my organization skills are largely from that 1147 01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:06,599 Speaker 5: and not from any type of institution. Somehow, those skills 1148 01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:11,120 Speaker 5: go over really well in academia. Okay, a few of 1149 01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:14,240 Speaker 5: my friends that are like postdocs and stuff that are 1150 01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:17,200 Speaker 5: now in you know, academic worlds, are like, oh, yeah, 1151 01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:20,080 Speaker 5: this has helped me. You know, running shows has really 1152 01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:21,640 Speaker 5: helped me run research projects. 1153 01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:25,000 Speaker 10: Oh yeah, because it's all about having your own initiative 1154 01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:28,160 Speaker 10: and working for people exactly and interesting. 1155 01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:31,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's been. It's been great to see and kind 1156 01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:32,720 Speaker 5: of be in the middle of it. 1157 01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:34,240 Speaker 10: Yeah. 1158 01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:34,599 Speaker 4: Yeah. 1159 01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:37,599 Speaker 5: I was originally at Rutgers and then I didn't finish 1160 01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:41,719 Speaker 5: my degree there, dropped out because of financial issues of course, 1161 01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:45,599 Speaker 5: as that's what happens when you're in college. Yeah, and 1162 01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:51,000 Speaker 5: I was in Bloomington for a long time, almost seven years, 1163 01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:53,960 Speaker 5: I want to say, before I started working here. And 1164 01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:57,240 Speaker 5: I started working here and I was like, well, I 1165 01:10:57,320 --> 01:11:01,479 Speaker 5: get like a little bit of tuition reimbursement for working here, 1166 01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:05,400 Speaker 5: I might as well finish it. So now I'm at 1167 01:11:05,400 --> 01:11:08,200 Speaker 5: the purpose of or at the standstill of my life 1168 01:11:08,240 --> 01:11:11,719 Speaker 5: where I am back in school and working full time. Yeah, 1169 01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:13,959 Speaker 5: mainly just to get it over. 1170 01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:16,880 Speaker 10: With, get working full time over with. 1171 01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:21,920 Speaker 5: Uh No, well I wish get the degree over with that. 1172 01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:25,360 Speaker 5: If I have the debt, I might as well have it. 1173 01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:29,320 Speaker 10: Yeah, so okay. So you work for the Kinsey Institute, 1174 01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:32,880 Speaker 10: and the Kinsey Institute is totally fine and on solid 1175 01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:35,160 Speaker 10: footing and is completely okay. So this is the thing 1176 01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:38,519 Speaker 10: that surprised me, you know, when I came and visited 1177 01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:41,439 Speaker 10: the Kinsey Institute and thank you for the tour of 1178 01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:46,680 Speaker 10: the institute. I the Kinsey Institute is such a institute, 1179 01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:50,280 Speaker 10: such a monolith, such a a thing that has existed 1180 01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:54,719 Speaker 10: for so long. It's hard for me to imagine people 1181 01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:57,200 Speaker 10: being really mad at it. Like it's it's hard for 1182 01:11:57,240 --> 01:12:02,240 Speaker 10: me to imagine that it's in trouble and it seems 1183 01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:04,320 Speaker 10: too big to fail. But like not too big, but 1184 01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:10,360 Speaker 10: too institutional, too important, Like I can't imagine someone saying, oh, 1185 01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:13,760 Speaker 10: we want to get rid of this incredibly important historical thing. 1186 01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:16,160 Speaker 10: I guess that's what a lot of the culture wars 1187 01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:19,680 Speaker 10: actually are about. So what's going on. 1188 01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:26,719 Speaker 5: Okay, So last summer it was like the budget vote 1189 01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:33,880 Speaker 5: I think for Indiana government, state government, and they someone 1190 01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:39,760 Speaker 5: Larisa Sweet is her name, the representative who proposed this, 1191 01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:47,200 Speaker 5: basically decided to say Kensing's too is perverts and you 1192 01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:51,519 Speaker 5: we shouldn't fund them with state money, which would you 1193 01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:55,599 Speaker 5: know under I guess understandable. But we're not funded by 1194 01:12:55,640 --> 01:13:00,400 Speaker 5: state money. Okay, only like a small person of the 1195 01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:04,080 Speaker 5: university as a whole is funded by state government money. 1196 01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:08,839 Speaker 5: So it's not quite like your tax dollars are paying 1197 01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:13,600 Speaker 5: for us to exist. We are able to utilize the 1198 01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:19,120 Speaker 5: services of the university, which is very helpful in the 1199 01:13:19,120 --> 01:13:22,679 Speaker 5: case of being If we were like a nonprofit, we'd 1200 01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:24,680 Speaker 5: probably have to do a lot of that work, like 1201 01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:27,759 Speaker 5: legwork in terms of like up keep of a building, 1202 01:13:28,439 --> 01:13:30,559 Speaker 5: like we'd have to do that on our own right. 1203 01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:36,080 Speaker 5: But the university, the state government, does not fund us. 1204 01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:40,640 Speaker 5: We're funded by donors. We're funded by grants that we 1205 01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:45,240 Speaker 5: receive and endowments that exist that other people have given 1206 01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:48,000 Speaker 5: us because they believe in the worst that we do 1207 01:13:48,400 --> 01:13:50,000 Speaker 5: and they want to see it continue. 1208 01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:55,200 Speaker 10: So why are they trying to go after the wrong 1209 01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:57,280 Speaker 10: source of your funding? And how does it end up 1210 01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:00,960 Speaker 10: impacting you like that they've pas asked to this, you know, 1211 01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:04,000 Speaker 10: essentially law to take money away from you that you 1212 01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:04,759 Speaker 10: weren't using. 1213 01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:11,320 Speaker 5: Yeah. So the big thing is that there is a 1214 01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:16,479 Speaker 5: lot of misinformation about Alfred Kinsey and his first book, 1215 01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:19,120 Speaker 5: The Human Behavior of This or sorry, The Sexual Behavior 1216 01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:24,160 Speaker 5: of the Human Male, And there is a table within 1217 01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:29,040 Speaker 5: it of doctor Kinzie. When he did his research, he 1218 01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:33,920 Speaker 5: interviewed people specifically to ask them, you know, when were 1219 01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:40,680 Speaker 5: you first, like first realizing your sexual arousal. And some 1220 01:14:40,720 --> 01:14:43,839 Speaker 5: people said, you know, I was this age, I was twelve, 1221 01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:48,160 Speaker 5: I was five. And as a child, you know that 1222 01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:51,479 Speaker 5: you play around with your body because you're learning it right, 1223 01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:54,679 Speaker 5: because you've never used most of these things before. It's 1224 01:14:54,680 --> 01:14:59,920 Speaker 5: brand new. And so he had years in their ag 1225 01:15:00,240 --> 01:15:04,240 Speaker 5: in there that were younger than anyone that is conservative 1226 01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:07,800 Speaker 5: would want to believe that you would be sexually. 1227 01:15:07,400 --> 01:15:12,679 Speaker 10: Aroused, right unless you're going to marry a heterosexually into 1228 01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:14,639 Speaker 10: a pastor Yeah, yeah, exactly. 1229 01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:18,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, child marriage is coming back. So there's that true. Yeah, 1230 01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:22,519 Speaker 5: So there's that that exists. It's a lot of people 1231 01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:26,000 Speaker 5: who don't understand the research that he does. Period, there 1232 01:15:26,040 --> 01:15:28,080 Speaker 5: was a lot of backlash when he had when he 1233 01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:30,800 Speaker 5: did his work because people didn't want to believe that 1234 01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:36,040 Speaker 5: anyone was having premarital sex, that anyone was homosexual and 1235 01:15:36,080 --> 01:15:41,880 Speaker 5: it was normal, or that anyone any woman enjoys sex, 1236 01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:45,240 Speaker 5: right because it's for one thing only, right. 1237 01:15:45,840 --> 01:15:48,920 Speaker 10: So they looked at this chart that said five year 1238 01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:55,160 Speaker 10: olds experienced sexual attraction and said he's interviewing five year olds? 1239 01:15:55,439 --> 01:15:55,960 Speaker 10: Is that. 1240 01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:03,320 Speaker 5: Basically, or rather that he was doing experiments on five 1241 01:16:03,400 --> 01:16:08,320 Speaker 5: year olds. His work is like physical because he is 1242 01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:13,439 Speaker 5: a zoologist, right, biologist by nature. And I'm going to 1243 01:16:13,479 --> 01:16:15,640 Speaker 5: guess they think that any research that you do has 1244 01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:17,760 Speaker 5: to be with a person in one room and not 1245 01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:22,519 Speaker 5: you know, social interviews or oral histographies, Like they don't 1246 01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:23,960 Speaker 5: put those two things together. 1247 01:16:24,080 --> 01:16:26,519 Speaker 10: Right, And I was reading that they have a lot 1248 01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:29,080 Speaker 10: of I was expecting when when I looked at this, 1249 01:16:29,120 --> 01:16:31,680 Speaker 10: I was expecting to find like op eds from the 1250 01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:34,759 Speaker 10: fifties or something, But I'm finding things from twenty twenty 1251 01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:39,200 Speaker 10: three of people throwing a fit about the fact that 1252 01:16:39,240 --> 01:16:42,519 Speaker 10: he during some of this he did like, I mean, 1253 01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:44,799 Speaker 10: he was kinky. It seemed like right, he like filmed 1254 01:16:44,840 --> 01:16:48,559 Speaker 10: himself fucking, and he filmed his wife fucking and he 1255 01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:52,840 Speaker 10: a bunch of consenting adults had some sex that he 1256 01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:57,240 Speaker 10: was around for, and that's like meant to mean that 1257 01:16:57,320 --> 01:16:59,479 Speaker 10: he is a horrible, weird monster. 1258 01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:04,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, and truly, none of my work has anything to 1259 01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:06,680 Speaker 5: do with or literally anyone's work has anything to do 1260 01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:10,080 Speaker 5: with what Kinsey might have done when she was here, 1261 01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:14,400 Speaker 5: because he died so like within eight years of the 1262 01:17:14,439 --> 01:17:15,920 Speaker 5: institute even being a thing. 1263 01:17:16,320 --> 01:17:17,439 Speaker 10: Yeah, so. 1264 01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:22,720 Speaker 5: I don't know, it's not important to the work that 1265 01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:25,200 Speaker 5: we do now, even if he was a kinky person, 1266 01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:30,200 Speaker 5: Like people that get into sex research are interested in sex, 1267 01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:33,960 Speaker 5: so he wanted to try stuff out. I guess ye, Like, 1268 01:17:34,080 --> 01:17:37,360 Speaker 5: who does it? That's like the point of being alive. 1269 01:17:38,040 --> 01:17:41,879 Speaker 10: No, no, actually, the point of being alive is buying 1270 01:17:42,040 --> 01:17:45,120 Speaker 10: goods and services from our advertisers. I don't know if 1271 01:17:45,160 --> 01:17:46,880 Speaker 10: you knew this. I think you thought it was about 1272 01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:51,479 Speaker 10: seeking joy, but it's actually about filling the gaping mall 1273 01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:55,479 Speaker 10: at the center of your life with products like these ones. 1274 01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:10,839 Speaker 10: And we're back, Okay. So obviously people have a problem 1275 01:18:10,880 --> 01:18:12,960 Speaker 10: with this man who's been dead since the fifties and 1276 01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:16,320 Speaker 10: therefore mad at this institute that keeps track of a 1277 01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:19,200 Speaker 10: lot of stuff over the years like an archive. What 1278 01:18:19,280 --> 01:18:22,000 Speaker 10: do they when they try to pull state funding from you? 1279 01:18:22,040 --> 01:18:25,040 Speaker 10: How does that impact you? You're saying that that's like 1280 01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:29,000 Speaker 10: not you know, does it primarily impact you because everyone's 1281 01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:31,120 Speaker 10: suddenly aware of and mad at you again, or does 1282 01:18:31,160 --> 01:18:34,400 Speaker 10: it actually also like is it going to cut your funding? 1283 01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:35,200 Speaker 10: Like what's happening. 1284 01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:41,160 Speaker 5: So what's happening is there's now a I don't want 1285 01:18:41,160 --> 01:18:45,559 Speaker 5: to say like a disagreement, but there's there's a there's 1286 01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:48,680 Speaker 5: people trying to figure out how to be compliant with 1287 01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:52,599 Speaker 5: this law, which means that they need to go into 1288 01:18:53,800 --> 01:18:59,400 Speaker 5: certain administrative burdens to prove that we don't get these fonts. Okay, 1289 01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:05,200 Speaker 5: that's really all that it is. Otherwise we are pretty 1290 01:19:05,320 --> 01:19:10,280 Speaker 5: good standing. It's it's more so at least now the 1291 01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:15,479 Speaker 5: Border Trustie's voted on Friday and they basically brought in 1292 01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:19,880 Speaker 5: the President's recommendation of do not separate us from the 1293 01:19:20,120 --> 01:19:25,840 Speaker 5: from the university, and so that happened on Friday, March 1294 01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:30,200 Speaker 5: first was the day that that went through. So we 1295 01:19:30,280 --> 01:19:32,960 Speaker 5: are all feeling pretty good. We all kind of had 1296 01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:35,719 Speaker 5: a little bit of a not so much a victory lap, 1297 01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:40,200 Speaker 5: but like a we've been hearing this for the last 1298 01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:44,640 Speaker 5: six months of worrying about what's going to happen to 1299 01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:47,400 Speaker 5: this place that we all love and that carries so 1300 01:19:47,439 --> 01:19:50,120 Speaker 5: many things because of the librarians who are around in 1301 01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:53,519 Speaker 5: the artifice, who are around, aren't the people handling the collection, 1302 01:19:55,040 --> 01:19:59,920 Speaker 5: And the legislature later decides, I you in a universe 1303 01:20:00,160 --> 01:20:06,800 Speaker 5: can't hold anything that is obscene, and obscene is you know, 1304 01:20:06,920 --> 01:20:10,960 Speaker 5: I have the beholder. It could easily mean that this, 1305 01:20:11,160 --> 01:20:15,519 Speaker 5: like six hundred thousand artifacts that we hold in our 1306 01:20:15,560 --> 01:20:18,240 Speaker 5: collections are gone, and we have stuff that spans two 1307 01:20:18,320 --> 01:20:23,960 Speaker 5: thousand years. It's not just items that are around today. 1308 01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:27,519 Speaker 5: And everything that we get is donated. We don't buy 1309 01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:32,439 Speaker 5: any of the items. Per second. People just mail them 1310 01:20:32,479 --> 01:20:33,560 Speaker 5: to us. 1311 01:20:34,880 --> 01:20:36,680 Speaker 10: The kind of things that normally if you mail to 1312 01:20:36,720 --> 01:20:37,840 Speaker 10: someone you might get in trouble. 1313 01:20:38,720 --> 01:20:42,639 Speaker 5: Yes, exactly, And that was kind of the people still 1314 01:20:42,640 --> 01:20:45,200 Speaker 5: think they're going to get in trouble kind of the point. 1315 01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:49,160 Speaker 5: Like I've heard that people have like shipped porn in 1316 01:20:49,920 --> 01:20:54,479 Speaker 5: cereal boxes as a way to like hide them because 1317 01:20:54,520 --> 01:20:58,160 Speaker 5: they're still worried that the comstock law is around in 1318 01:20:58,200 --> 01:21:02,080 Speaker 5: a way that will make these items be destroyed. 1319 01:21:02,479 --> 01:21:05,599 Speaker 10: Yeah, well, okay, oh, there's so many parts of this 1320 01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:08,280 Speaker 10: that I want to talk about. I actually thought about 1321 01:21:08,320 --> 01:21:11,280 Speaker 10: this because I mailed a book from the Kinsey Institute 1322 01:21:11,320 --> 01:21:13,599 Speaker 10: to someone last week, and as I was packaging it up, 1323 01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:17,400 Speaker 10: I was thinking to myself, this used to be a crime. 1324 01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:20,519 Speaker 10: The Comstock laws. For anyone who's curious, there was this 1325 01:21:22,080 --> 01:21:24,960 Speaker 10: historical pervert named Comstock, And by that I mean he 1326 01:21:25,040 --> 01:21:27,719 Speaker 10: was the largest collector of porn of his era who 1327 01:21:28,040 --> 01:21:34,040 Speaker 10: was on a wild crusade against perversion and birth control 1328 01:21:34,080 --> 01:21:37,479 Speaker 10: and all of these things. And he went around and 1329 01:21:37,640 --> 01:21:39,760 Speaker 10: stopped people. He got all these laws passed that he 1330 01:21:39,800 --> 01:21:43,720 Speaker 10: can't pass pornographic materials through the US male That was 1331 01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:47,280 Speaker 10: like his big contribution to society, besides ruining an awful 1332 01:21:47,320 --> 01:21:53,000 Speaker 10: lot of people's lives. And that's coming up again, like 1333 01:21:53,040 --> 01:21:54,960 Speaker 10: the ghost of the Comstock Laws. Do you want to 1334 01:21:54,960 --> 01:21:55,439 Speaker 10: talk about that? 1335 01:21:56,640 --> 01:22:02,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, So we have a book. Bands happening within libraries. 1336 01:22:03,360 --> 01:22:07,840 Speaker 5: I honestly am not positive what is happening within Indiana libraries. 1337 01:22:08,320 --> 01:22:12,439 Speaker 5: But there is a group of I would say parent groups, 1338 01:22:13,160 --> 01:22:15,559 Speaker 5: but I don't even know that they're actually still parents 1339 01:22:15,560 --> 01:22:20,080 Speaker 5: of children. It's usually like women in their mid fifties 1340 01:22:20,760 --> 01:22:25,519 Speaker 5: and later who are running for superintendent or the school 1341 01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:30,280 Speaker 5: board whatever, and now coming up with these ways that 1342 01:22:30,479 --> 01:22:35,880 Speaker 5: children can't interact with items that maybe have never been 1343 01:22:37,240 --> 01:22:40,320 Speaker 5: illegal in the past, so to speak. Like if any 1344 01:22:40,400 --> 01:22:45,360 Speaker 5: book mentions sex of any kind, right, it can't be around. 1345 01:22:45,400 --> 01:22:50,920 Speaker 5: If anyone is homosexual in any of the books, it's 1346 01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:55,599 Speaker 5: banned in their eyes. Yeah, and you know a majority 1347 01:22:55,640 --> 01:22:58,480 Speaker 5: of our books are a lot of those things. 1348 01:22:59,880 --> 01:23:01,880 Speaker 10: I'm sure there's some straight stuff in there if you 1349 01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:02,639 Speaker 10: look really hard. 1350 01:23:03,080 --> 01:23:03,360 Speaker 4: Well. 1351 01:23:03,560 --> 01:23:06,479 Speaker 5: I today I was in the reading room that we 1352 01:23:06,520 --> 01:23:10,519 Speaker 5: have and we had out the It was called the 1353 01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:15,080 Speaker 5: like Wild Edibles of the Eastern North America, and it 1354 01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:18,160 Speaker 5: was a book written by Alfred Kinsey because he was 1355 01:23:18,200 --> 01:23:22,559 Speaker 5: a he was like an eagle scout, Yeah, like loved nature. 1356 01:23:22,920 --> 01:23:24,439 Speaker 10: He was one of the first Eagle Scouts. 1357 01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:27,439 Speaker 5: Actually, yeah, you know more about them than I too. 1358 01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:30,840 Speaker 10: I just read about him in order to prepare this introduction. 1359 01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:36,200 Speaker 5: But a lot of those groups, like Moms for Liberty, 1360 01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:40,120 Speaker 5: they're the ones who are like a big crusade right now. 1361 01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:46,720 Speaker 5: When I first started, we just got a statue installed 1362 01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:51,800 Speaker 5: behind our building of Alfred Kinsey, And that is kind 1363 01:23:51,840 --> 01:23:55,559 Speaker 5: of when the majority of the threats that we would 1364 01:23:55,600 --> 01:23:59,959 Speaker 5: get started Okay, when they start talking about this statue. 1365 01:24:00,720 --> 01:24:02,479 Speaker 5: I have talked to people that have worked for like 1366 01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:06,639 Speaker 5: twenty years and they have said they've never seen threats 1367 01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:10,160 Speaker 5: come in like this ever before. Yeah, so it's people 1368 01:24:10,200 --> 01:24:15,120 Speaker 5: talking about like bombing the statue. I calls about you know, 1369 01:24:15,240 --> 01:24:19,000 Speaker 5: being a sexual predator, a debiant, or you know, you 1370 01:24:19,040 --> 01:24:23,840 Speaker 5: guys should all die, and it's very directed at us, right, 1371 01:24:24,439 --> 01:24:27,760 Speaker 5: It's it's less of being directed at like a random 1372 01:24:28,600 --> 01:24:29,519 Speaker 5: abstract thing. 1373 01:24:30,000 --> 01:24:30,240 Speaker 4: Right. 1374 01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:33,240 Speaker 5: We have gotten a lot of harassment in terms of 1375 01:24:33,280 --> 01:24:36,719 Speaker 5: like people who because they think, oh, you do sex research, 1376 01:24:36,760 --> 01:24:38,240 Speaker 5: so you want to picture of my dick? 1377 01:24:39,360 --> 01:24:40,560 Speaker 10: So interesting. 1378 01:24:40,840 --> 01:24:44,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, so that will happen at times. 1379 01:24:44,320 --> 01:24:47,960 Speaker 10: You all should do an exhibit of the dick pics 1380 01:24:48,040 --> 01:24:52,439 Speaker 10: that have been donated so kindly to your institution and 1381 01:24:52,520 --> 01:24:56,360 Speaker 10: the individuals who work for it are are a ratiing 1382 01:24:56,439 --> 01:24:57,280 Speaker 10: system underneath. 1383 01:24:57,680 --> 01:25:04,599 Speaker 5: I'm sure a curator, a compassman will love that. We 1384 01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:09,040 Speaker 5: actually just got in donated to us was the Cynthia 1385 01:25:09,080 --> 01:25:12,240 Speaker 5: plaster Casters her dick molds that she did of the 1386 01:25:12,439 --> 01:25:15,720 Speaker 5: in the eighties. She's like a famous groupie, okay, like 1387 01:25:16,080 --> 01:25:19,839 Speaker 5: rock stars, So we have like Jimmy Hendrick's keenis whoa, 1388 01:25:20,479 --> 01:25:24,000 Speaker 5: you know, bronze mold and that's the next big exhibition 1389 01:25:24,040 --> 01:25:27,000 Speaker 5: that's supposed to happen. But we also have like Jello biafra. 1390 01:25:28,160 --> 01:25:28,400 Speaker 1: Wow. 1391 01:25:28,760 --> 01:25:30,439 Speaker 5: Okay, it's hilarious. 1392 01:25:30,720 --> 01:25:33,960 Speaker 10: Would you all get never mind? I was thinking about 1393 01:25:33,960 --> 01:25:35,080 Speaker 10: how you all can make some money. 1394 01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:37,720 Speaker 5: Lots of people are the gay of that. 1395 01:25:38,120 --> 01:25:45,160 Speaker 10: Yeah, okay, huh, well no, it's okay. So it's so 1396 01:25:45,200 --> 01:25:47,599 Speaker 10: interesting to me, right, because it seems like their attempt 1397 01:25:47,680 --> 01:25:51,519 Speaker 10: to shut you down legislatively was a swing and a miss. 1398 01:25:51,840 --> 01:25:52,040 Speaker 4: Right. 1399 01:25:52,160 --> 01:25:54,680 Speaker 10: It was this thing that they they thought that they 1400 01:25:54,720 --> 01:25:56,760 Speaker 10: had this thing that they're like, Haha, We're going to 1401 01:25:56,800 --> 01:25:59,080 Speaker 10: get those perverts by cutting off their funding. And then 1402 01:25:59,120 --> 01:26:02,040 Speaker 10: everyone was like, well, that's not where the funding comes from. 1403 01:26:02,080 --> 01:26:04,519 Speaker 10: And the university was like, we kind of like this place. 1404 01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:06,640 Speaker 10: It's been around for seventy seven years. It's literally the 1405 01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:10,599 Speaker 10: only reason anyone outside of Indiana has ever heard of us. Yeah, 1406 01:26:10,760 --> 01:26:11,360 Speaker 10: is that kind. 1407 01:26:11,200 --> 01:26:14,559 Speaker 5: Of a that's definitely the vibe. We had like a 1408 01:26:14,640 --> 01:26:19,120 Speaker 5: series of listening sessions with the higher administration of like 1409 01:26:19,240 --> 01:26:24,400 Speaker 5: the public, well the university public coming in and just 1410 01:26:24,479 --> 01:26:27,560 Speaker 5: basically a lot of them saying the Kinzians too, is 1411 01:26:27,600 --> 01:26:31,880 Speaker 5: the only reason why I came to ium. The fact 1412 01:26:31,880 --> 01:26:35,400 Speaker 5: that this is here allows me to do my research, 1413 01:26:35,560 --> 01:26:40,080 Speaker 5: even if their research is in like Eastern European you know, 1414 01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:44,880 Speaker 5: like faberge eggs. Right, So it gives people a chance 1415 01:26:44,920 --> 01:26:48,479 Speaker 5: to see that like academic freedom and like freedom to 1416 01:26:48,600 --> 01:26:53,080 Speaker 5: research what you want is possible, and not just possible, 1417 01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:57,400 Speaker 5: but like encouraged. Right, Like, as an R one university, 1418 01:26:58,120 --> 01:27:02,040 Speaker 5: we should be doing should be researching things that aren't 1419 01:27:02,479 --> 01:27:06,640 Speaker 5: or taboo at times, yeah, and are actually trying to 1420 01:27:06,760 --> 01:27:13,759 Speaker 5: help the world rather than making money for some investor somewhere. 1421 01:27:14,280 --> 01:27:21,240 Speaker 10: Right, No, because that seems like the entire point of academia, right. Academia. Okay, 1422 01:27:21,280 --> 01:27:22,880 Speaker 10: this is really interesting to me because I have kind 1423 01:27:22,880 --> 01:27:25,080 Speaker 10: of a bit of a love hate relationship with academia, 1424 01:27:25,080 --> 01:27:26,280 Speaker 10: and you know, there's a lot of critiques that can 1425 01:27:26,280 --> 01:27:28,840 Speaker 10: be laid at sort of Ivory tower and locking away 1426 01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:32,360 Speaker 10: information and things. But yet as we enter this sort 1427 01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:35,840 Speaker 10: of anti intellectual time that is absolutely a right wing 1428 01:27:35,920 --> 01:27:38,120 Speaker 10: culture war thing is to be anti intellectual and in 1429 01:27:38,120 --> 01:27:43,240 Speaker 10: this case specifically shut down the academy's ability to preserve 1430 01:27:43,320 --> 01:27:44,479 Speaker 10: and transfer knowledge. 1431 01:27:44,680 --> 01:27:44,760 Speaker 5: Like. 1432 01:27:44,800 --> 01:27:47,920 Speaker 10: The problem from my point of view is that when 1433 01:27:47,960 --> 01:27:51,840 Speaker 10: there are limits to how well the information can be transferred, 1434 01:27:52,400 --> 01:27:57,000 Speaker 10: rather than the right wing anti intellectualism. Well, I anti 1435 01:27:57,040 --> 01:27:59,519 Speaker 10: intellectualism broadly. I'm not trying to make a case for 1436 01:27:59,760 --> 01:28:03,360 Speaker 10: any other kind of It is a problem with the 1437 01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:07,320 Speaker 10: actual existence of this knowledge, right, It's this like forbidden 1438 01:28:07,400 --> 01:28:10,799 Speaker 10: knowledge that no one should know that thirty seven percent 1439 01:28:10,840 --> 01:28:15,719 Speaker 10: of men in the nineteen forties like got a handy, 1440 01:28:16,040 --> 01:28:17,480 Speaker 10: you know exactly. 1441 01:28:18,120 --> 01:28:22,639 Speaker 5: The weird thing is that our collections are literally open 1442 01:28:22,720 --> 01:28:25,479 Speaker 5: to anyone who wants to come. We don't need to 1443 01:28:25,479 --> 01:28:30,000 Speaker 5: test it in any way. Well, yeah, that happens often, 1444 01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:37,000 Speaker 5: which to me is great and is kind of hard 1445 01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:41,840 Speaker 5: to come across in any archive. Usually if you have 1446 01:28:41,920 --> 01:28:45,240 Speaker 5: an archive, like you need to have an affiliation with 1447 01:28:45,840 --> 01:28:49,160 Speaker 5: a university or a company in order to come and 1448 01:28:49,200 --> 01:28:50,320 Speaker 5: look at some of these things. 1449 01:28:50,479 --> 01:28:51,720 Speaker 10: Yeah, you know. 1450 01:28:51,720 --> 01:28:53,719 Speaker 5: I mean that's not to say that like anyone comes 1451 01:28:53,720 --> 01:28:58,200 Speaker 5: in and they are doing lude things like there we 1452 01:28:58,280 --> 01:29:04,800 Speaker 5: talk with everyone that comes in. There's no mystery happening. 1453 01:29:04,840 --> 01:29:10,040 Speaker 5: Really okay, there's no sex dungeon. I was a little 1454 01:29:10,320 --> 01:29:14,879 Speaker 5: I think, Yeah, it's really boring. It's just a beige 1455 01:29:15,360 --> 01:29:16,920 Speaker 5: hallway for the most part. 1456 01:29:17,400 --> 01:29:19,479 Speaker 10: But you know what isn't boring that I have to 1457 01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:26,000 Speaker 10: interject quickly, is supporting by like I'm never bored while 1458 01:29:26,000 --> 01:29:29,880 Speaker 10: I'm in the process of exchanging little pictures of dead 1459 01:29:29,920 --> 01:29:34,719 Speaker 10: people for products and services like the ones that support 1460 01:29:34,840 --> 01:29:47,960 Speaker 10: this podcast. And we're back. And I feel really guilty 1461 01:29:48,000 --> 01:29:49,960 Speaker 10: for literally cutting you off mid sentence in order to 1462 01:29:50,000 --> 01:29:53,680 Speaker 10: do that. I'm so sorry. 1463 01:29:51,680 --> 01:29:55,479 Speaker 5: It's weird to be on the other side of this 1464 01:29:55,680 --> 01:30:01,920 Speaker 5: to actually see do that. Yeah, one of the big 1465 01:30:01,960 --> 01:30:05,840 Speaker 5: things that happened when I first started was Bloomington has 1466 01:30:05,880 --> 01:30:08,920 Speaker 5: a big pride. Bloomington as a whole is what they 1467 01:30:08,920 --> 01:30:11,840 Speaker 5: call like a blue pocket and the rest of the 1468 01:30:11,920 --> 01:30:14,639 Speaker 5: red the sea of red of Indiana. But I've also 1469 01:30:14,720 --> 01:30:18,040 Speaker 5: heard people say, like, you know, like Indiana went to 1470 01:30:18,080 --> 01:30:24,200 Speaker 5: Obama in two thousand and eight, like it's not as 1471 01:30:24,880 --> 01:30:27,599 Speaker 5: red as people really think it is. Right, It's that 1472 01:30:27,960 --> 01:30:29,360 Speaker 5: like it just came out today that we're like the 1473 01:30:29,439 --> 01:30:31,000 Speaker 5: fiftieth in voter turnout. 1474 01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:34,120 Speaker 10: WHOA, that's bad. 1475 01:30:34,479 --> 01:30:35,559 Speaker 4: That's really sad. 1476 01:30:36,240 --> 01:30:41,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, but people are so disheartened, Like it feels it's 1477 01:30:41,760 --> 01:30:46,800 Speaker 5: really hard when these people are yelling about how conservative 1478 01:30:46,840 --> 01:30:50,800 Speaker 5: Indiana is constantly that it gets in everyone's head that, oh, 1479 01:30:50,800 --> 01:30:54,400 Speaker 5: it doesn't matter that what I do, which I have 1480 01:30:54,439 --> 01:30:56,679 Speaker 5: a love hate Yeah, I have a love hate relationship 1481 01:30:56,720 --> 01:31:01,360 Speaker 5: with voting. But I also understand that, like I kind 1482 01:31:01,360 --> 01:31:04,519 Speaker 5: of need to in this capacity of where I am 1483 01:31:05,000 --> 01:31:09,280 Speaker 5: right because it really can change on a dime. Right. 1484 01:31:10,400 --> 01:31:14,200 Speaker 5: I think my my personal representative, he was elected by 1485 01:31:14,280 --> 01:31:18,320 Speaker 5: like eleven votes and he is a horrible, horrible man. 1486 01:31:18,680 --> 01:31:19,240 Speaker 4: Yeah. 1487 01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:24,320 Speaker 5: Yeah, And I when I get his fucking mailers that 1488 01:31:24,520 --> 01:31:27,200 Speaker 5: just say some dumb shit about trans laws, and I 1489 01:31:27,280 --> 01:31:28,599 Speaker 5: just go, I can't with this. 1490 01:31:29,080 --> 01:31:35,120 Speaker 10: Yeah, I get pissed because the cowboy hat and his mailers. No, 1491 01:31:35,240 --> 01:31:40,040 Speaker 10: but heah, okay, yeah that makes sense. There's no cowboys 1492 01:31:40,080 --> 01:31:43,839 Speaker 10: where I live. It's the mountains. Take off the cowboy 1493 01:31:43,880 --> 01:31:46,559 Speaker 10: hat and put on a real tree baseball cap like 1494 01:31:46,600 --> 01:31:51,080 Speaker 10: everyone else in this town. Poser, Okay, sorry anyway, h huh. 1495 01:31:51,120 --> 01:31:53,759 Speaker 5: So a lot of what's going on is that people 1496 01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:56,880 Speaker 5: think that Indiana is super right wing, and as someone 1497 01:31:56,920 --> 01:32:01,640 Speaker 5: who's who came here from the East Coast, like I 1498 01:32:01,680 --> 01:32:05,840 Speaker 5: love it here, Like it's really beautiful in Indiana. Yeah, 1499 01:32:06,360 --> 01:32:10,480 Speaker 5: I like not being around a lot of people. Bloomington 1500 01:32:10,600 --> 01:32:12,479 Speaker 5: says that there it's a really small town, but it 1501 01:32:12,479 --> 01:32:15,360 Speaker 5: really is like eighty thousand people. When the students aren't here, 1502 01:32:15,600 --> 01:32:18,360 Speaker 5: which is still to me a lot of people. Yeah, 1503 01:32:18,760 --> 01:32:24,160 Speaker 5: but it is small comparatively to anywhere on the East Coast, right, 1504 01:32:24,800 --> 01:32:27,639 Speaker 5: But everyone I've met here, I will say, there's great 1505 01:32:27,760 --> 01:32:31,840 Speaker 5: organizers that live here. There's a great amount of community 1506 01:32:32,040 --> 01:32:36,960 Speaker 5: and just like building of coalitions between people that I 1507 01:32:37,080 --> 01:32:42,920 Speaker 5: haven't really seen elsewhere, Okay, which is really important. And 1508 01:32:42,920 --> 01:32:47,400 Speaker 5: it's not just through the university, which I think is 1509 01:32:47,439 --> 01:32:50,160 Speaker 5: most people think it's all here, But there's so many 1510 01:32:50,160 --> 01:32:55,400 Speaker 5: people outside of the university that do amazing work that 1511 01:32:55,479 --> 01:32:57,840 Speaker 5: maybe came here to go to school but ended up 1512 01:32:57,880 --> 01:33:01,680 Speaker 5: staying or just came here because this used to be 1513 01:33:01,760 --> 01:33:03,200 Speaker 5: like the folk punk capital. 1514 01:33:04,000 --> 01:33:04,559 Speaker 11: That's true. 1515 01:33:05,120 --> 01:33:07,640 Speaker 10: That is whatever. When I was going to Bloomington, that 1516 01:33:07,800 --> 01:33:09,320 Speaker 10: is what everyone asked. No one asked me about the 1517 01:33:09,400 --> 01:33:15,320 Speaker 10: Kinsey Institute. Everyone asked me about folk punk. Yeah, my 1518 01:33:15,400 --> 01:33:17,559 Speaker 10: interests align more to the Kinsey Institute. 1519 01:33:17,600 --> 01:33:17,920 Speaker 4: Person. 1520 01:33:18,760 --> 01:33:21,639 Speaker 10: No one get mad at me. Well, okay, so it's interesting. 1521 01:33:21,960 --> 01:33:25,240 Speaker 10: So in my mind, you're like, oh, okay, the right 1522 01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:27,800 Speaker 10: wing came for the Kinsians student and they just failed, right, 1523 01:33:28,360 --> 01:33:30,760 Speaker 10: And is that missing the fact that you had a 1524 01:33:30,760 --> 01:33:33,280 Speaker 10: lot of organizers and a lot of people working to 1525 01:33:33,320 --> 01:33:35,680 Speaker 10: defend the Kinsey Institute. 1526 01:33:36,240 --> 01:33:39,400 Speaker 5: I think so, I wouldn't even say that it was 1527 01:33:39,439 --> 01:33:45,280 Speaker 5: a failure. It was more of they really don't understand 1528 01:33:45,320 --> 01:33:49,760 Speaker 5: what we do and even how these institutions work. I 1529 01:33:49,760 --> 01:33:52,360 Speaker 5: think is the real thing is that they are so 1530 01:33:52,720 --> 01:33:58,719 Speaker 5: caught up in how things should work, they don't actually 1531 01:33:58,720 --> 01:34:03,439 Speaker 5: look into how like neoliberalism is everywhere and it is. 1532 01:34:03,840 --> 01:34:06,760 Speaker 5: I don't think they understand what that is and how 1533 01:34:06,840 --> 01:34:12,559 Speaker 5: much it's infected, how bureaucratic everything is, and how everything 1534 01:34:12,640 --> 01:34:15,280 Speaker 5: is interconnected constantly. 1535 01:34:15,640 --> 01:34:17,639 Speaker 10: So that's why they thought tax money would be the thing, 1536 01:34:18,160 --> 01:34:21,040 Speaker 10: but it's actually this complicated capitalist system. 1537 01:34:21,640 --> 01:34:25,880 Speaker 5: Yes, I mean maybe if they listen to some some 1538 01:34:26,040 --> 01:34:30,080 Speaker 5: other people and they're about capitalism, they would probably get more, 1539 01:34:31,360 --> 01:34:34,640 Speaker 5: you know, more people to come behind them. But for 1540 01:34:34,760 --> 01:34:37,400 Speaker 5: the most part, the folks who are are a loud 1541 01:34:37,400 --> 01:34:42,320 Speaker 5: and proud about that, they they don't know what we do. 1542 01:34:42,439 --> 01:34:45,000 Speaker 5: They don't know who we are either. They think they. 1543 01:34:44,880 --> 01:34:47,280 Speaker 10: Do good since they're trying to murder you. 1544 01:34:48,240 --> 01:34:52,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, the director got docked the first year I was here. 1545 01:34:52,240 --> 01:34:55,960 Speaker 5: That was fun and there was a protest with some 1546 01:34:56,040 --> 01:35:00,400 Speaker 5: three percenters on campus. And we work for closely with 1547 01:35:00,439 --> 01:35:04,240 Speaker 5: Blimington Pridle out of the time, and so there's always 1548 01:35:04,320 --> 01:35:08,400 Speaker 5: the worry of people showing up there. Yeah, but again, 1549 01:35:08,479 --> 01:35:11,040 Speaker 5: like I said, like everyone here is there's so many 1550 01:35:11,120 --> 01:35:15,679 Speaker 5: good organizers that they've kept this town safe for so long, 1551 01:35:16,240 --> 01:35:19,400 Speaker 5: and I think they'll continue to do that. 1552 01:35:19,400 --> 01:35:22,840 Speaker 10: That's cool. I like when we learn and when we 1553 01:35:22,880 --> 01:35:25,360 Speaker 10: reinforce the fact that the thing that keeps us safe 1554 01:35:25,400 --> 01:35:28,960 Speaker 10: is organizing and is like community organizing and getting people 1555 01:35:28,960 --> 01:35:33,280 Speaker 10: together to keep track of what's going on and counter it. 1556 01:35:34,360 --> 01:35:34,880 Speaker 6: Yeah. 1557 01:35:35,160 --> 01:35:38,000 Speaker 5: One of the big things that we focus on in 1558 01:35:38,080 --> 01:35:41,960 Speaker 5: terms of like our research goals is well being and 1559 01:35:41,960 --> 01:35:46,760 Speaker 5: that's always something that has stuck with me because to me, 1560 01:35:46,880 --> 01:35:49,640 Speaker 5: the well being is us keeping each other safe. And 1561 01:35:49,680 --> 01:35:53,479 Speaker 5: I remember when this all first happened. I remember talking 1562 01:35:53,520 --> 01:35:56,280 Speaker 5: to the director and just being like, those people aren't 1563 01:35:56,320 --> 01:35:58,080 Speaker 5: going to help us. We are going to help each other. 1564 01:35:58,400 --> 01:35:58,639 Speaker 1: Yeah. 1565 01:35:58,680 --> 01:36:01,920 Speaker 5: It's like, oh, yeah, you're right, we are. It's like, yeah, 1566 01:36:02,000 --> 01:36:05,000 Speaker 5: we're not. Like we kind of can't count on everyone 1567 01:36:05,040 --> 01:36:10,719 Speaker 5: else sometimes these big institutions, because we know what we're doing, 1568 01:36:10,960 --> 01:36:13,719 Speaker 5: but they maybe don't know what we're doing, and maybe 1569 01:36:13,720 --> 01:36:15,960 Speaker 5: it's time that we just tell more people about it. 1570 01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:19,679 Speaker 10: I like that. I also like that it specifically points 1571 01:36:19,720 --> 01:36:22,160 Speaker 10: out that they did right by hiring a diy punk 1572 01:36:22,600 --> 01:36:23,560 Speaker 10: into their institution. 1573 01:36:23,960 --> 01:36:26,280 Speaker 5: You know, I yeah, I get a lot of weird 1574 01:36:26,360 --> 01:36:31,280 Speaker 5: flat but not being an academic right, But then it 1575 01:36:31,320 --> 01:36:34,680 Speaker 5: comes to things like this and it's like, oh, I 1576 01:36:34,720 --> 01:36:38,400 Speaker 5: always hear like, well we made their choice, yeah, which 1577 01:36:38,680 --> 01:36:41,880 Speaker 5: it's nice to feel, unfortunately in a job. 1578 01:36:42,720 --> 01:36:43,160 Speaker 4: Yeah. 1579 01:36:43,280 --> 01:36:48,599 Speaker 10: No, that makes some sense if people want to support 1580 01:36:48,960 --> 01:36:51,840 Speaker 10: you all as individuals who're facing this trouble, or the 1581 01:36:51,920 --> 01:36:55,000 Speaker 10: Kinsey Institute in general, or even just like if you 1582 01:36:55,000 --> 01:36:59,200 Speaker 10: have advice for people who are stuck engaging in the 1583 01:36:59,200 --> 01:37:02,599 Speaker 10: culture war more directly because they don't live on the coasts, 1584 01:37:03,400 --> 01:37:05,960 Speaker 10: what would you say? How can people support. 1585 01:37:06,479 --> 01:37:10,719 Speaker 5: To support each other? We have a nice queer sports 1586 01:37:10,800 --> 01:37:14,360 Speaker 5: league here and I suggest playing kickball with your friends. 1587 01:37:14,720 --> 01:37:19,280 Speaker 5: It's been really good, and also doing a honky talk night. 1588 01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:23,360 Speaker 5: That's our big, our big thing cool. I'm really proud 1589 01:37:23,400 --> 01:37:26,280 Speaker 5: of everyone that put has put that stuff together because 1590 01:37:26,280 --> 01:37:30,599 Speaker 5: it has created a world that has brings people from 1591 01:37:30,680 --> 01:37:35,440 Speaker 5: all different parts together of the town. YEA for the institute, 1592 01:37:35,520 --> 01:37:38,599 Speaker 5: if you want to go to Kinseyinstitute dot org, that 1593 01:37:38,880 --> 01:37:41,880 Speaker 5: is kind of where you can see everything. You can 1594 01:37:42,040 --> 01:37:46,000 Speaker 5: support us by coming and learning more about sexual research 1595 01:37:46,080 --> 01:37:50,960 Speaker 5: and your history, because it's all of our history in 1596 01:37:51,040 --> 01:37:56,760 Speaker 5: terms of learning about how people lived and how we 1597 01:37:56,800 --> 01:38:00,880 Speaker 5: have like the most mundane things. Yeah, you're talking about 1598 01:38:00,920 --> 01:38:04,080 Speaker 5: Hirschfeld earlier. We have a scrap book of his and 1599 01:38:04,120 --> 01:38:08,479 Speaker 5: that is like the oldest thing of his that it 1600 01:38:08,520 --> 01:38:11,120 Speaker 5: is like his personal item that we have, Yeah, along 1601 01:38:11,160 --> 01:38:14,320 Speaker 5: with like published items, but that's like the big thing. 1602 01:38:15,520 --> 01:38:18,280 Speaker 10: Yeah, he was almost fifty when he started the institute. 1603 01:38:18,320 --> 01:38:19,960 Speaker 10: I think I'm like kind of doing the math in 1604 01:38:20,000 --> 01:38:21,720 Speaker 10: my head really quickly because he was born in the 1605 01:38:21,760 --> 01:38:28,400 Speaker 10: nineteenth century. Yeah, okay, well, thank you so much for 1606 01:38:28,439 --> 01:38:30,599 Speaker 10: coming on and talking about this stuff. I'm so glad 1607 01:38:30,680 --> 01:38:32,720 Speaker 10: that this didn't you know, when we first talked about this, 1608 01:38:32,760 --> 01:38:34,559 Speaker 10: we didn't know which way the vote was going to go. 1609 01:38:35,000 --> 01:38:38,240 Speaker 10: I'm glad to do a little bit of a celebratory 1610 01:38:38,880 --> 01:38:42,960 Speaker 10: talk about this important institution. And yeah, thank you so much. 1611 01:38:43,479 --> 01:38:43,840 Speaker 5: Thank you. 1612 01:38:45,600 --> 01:38:49,000 Speaker 10: And if you want to fill hear me more, I 1613 01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:51,120 Speaker 10: have a different podcast, It's Cool People Did Cool Stuff 1614 01:38:51,120 --> 01:38:53,479 Speaker 10: and it's also on Cool Zone Media, which is the 1615 01:38:53,479 --> 01:38:56,760 Speaker 10: thing you're listening to right now. I hope you all 1616 01:38:56,800 --> 01:38:59,240 Speaker 10: are doing as well as you can with everything that's 1617 01:38:59,280 --> 01:39:04,080 Speaker 10: going on and putting each other back together again because 1618 01:39:04,160 --> 01:39:05,840 Speaker 10: we're all No. I'm not even going to close with 1619 01:39:05,880 --> 01:39:20,840 Speaker 10: a humpty dumpty metaphor. I'm just done. 1620 01:39:21,920 --> 01:39:23,120 Speaker 1: Welcome, take it up here. 1621 01:39:23,800 --> 01:39:27,679 Speaker 12: I'm addressage of the future channel and anddeurism and haven't digging. 1622 01:39:27,520 --> 01:39:28,599 Speaker 1: Into political culture. 1623 01:39:29,439 --> 01:39:31,920 Speaker 12: Drawn from the work of Dennis Tourist and Tim world 1624 01:39:31,960 --> 01:39:35,120 Speaker 12: Fourth in their book On the Edge Political Cults Left 1625 01:39:35,160 --> 01:39:39,320 Speaker 12: and Right. I've spoken before about the cult recruitment process, 1626 01:39:39,720 --> 01:39:44,320 Speaker 12: the contradictory positions held by cult members, ideological totalism, and 1627 01:39:44,360 --> 01:39:48,760 Speaker 12: the commonalities of political cults, including rigid belief systems, immunity 1628 01:39:48,800 --> 01:39:55,280 Speaker 12: to falsification, authoritarianism, arbitrary leadership, deification of leaders, intense activism, 1629 01:39:55,560 --> 01:39:58,600 Speaker 12: and the use of loaded language. If you want the 1630 01:39:58,600 --> 01:40:01,320 Speaker 12: details and all that, you can check out the first 1631 01:40:01,360 --> 01:40:04,240 Speaker 12: episode in the Political Cult series, or you can check 1632 01:40:04,280 --> 01:40:06,639 Speaker 12: out my video on the topic, or you can pick 1633 01:40:06,680 --> 01:40:09,320 Speaker 12: up the book on Political Cults yourself. As I said, 1634 01:40:09,640 --> 01:40:13,720 Speaker 12: on the Edge Political Cults left and Right previously, I've 1635 01:40:13,760 --> 01:40:16,880 Speaker 12: touched on the Laruche movement and the United Red Army 1636 01:40:16,880 --> 01:40:20,559 Speaker 12: of Japan. Today we'll be looking at another case study, 1637 01:40:21,360 --> 01:40:25,120 Speaker 12: this time of the various groups associated with Fred Neumann 1638 01:40:25,560 --> 01:40:29,000 Speaker 12: refused politics seamlessly with psychotherapy. 1639 01:40:29,479 --> 01:40:30,519 Speaker 1: Today, I'm joined by. 1640 01:40:32,320 --> 01:40:35,000 Speaker 4: Oh this is my cue. Oh no, I've been waiting 1641 01:40:35,040 --> 01:40:36,720 Speaker 4: for my queue and I've missed it. It's me a 1642 01:40:36,800 --> 01:40:40,960 Speaker 4: long misser of cues. Uh sometimes host of this podcast. 1643 01:40:42,560 --> 01:40:45,400 Speaker 4: I don't this guy's name sounds really familiar, but I 1644 01:40:45,439 --> 01:40:48,400 Speaker 4: cannot remember what he was up to, so I'm very excited. 1645 01:40:48,960 --> 01:40:53,600 Speaker 12: Yeah, yes, he has some interesting connections, very interesting connections. 1646 01:40:53,960 --> 01:40:56,040 Speaker 12: If people want to learn more about him, they can, 1647 01:40:56,080 --> 01:40:58,639 Speaker 12: of course pick up the book, or they can check 1648 01:40:58,680 --> 01:41:03,599 Speaker 12: out Terror, Love and Brainwashing, Attachments and Culton Tutalitarian Systems 1649 01:41:03,840 --> 01:41:05,000 Speaker 12: by Alexandra Stein. 1650 01:41:05,840 --> 01:41:07,360 Speaker 1: But anyway, let's get into it. 1651 01:41:08,720 --> 01:41:12,360 Speaker 12: Fred Newman was a Korean War veteran who earned a 1652 01:41:12,400 --> 01:41:16,960 Speaker 12: PhD in the philosophy of science from Stanford University with 1653 01:41:17,280 --> 01:41:21,439 Speaker 12: no formal training in psychology. Newman took a turn towards 1654 01:41:21,479 --> 01:41:25,040 Speaker 12: Maoism in the mid nineteen sixties, as one is apt 1655 01:41:25,080 --> 01:41:29,000 Speaker 12: to do in the mid nineteen sixties, in a time 1656 01:41:29,000 --> 01:41:32,640 Speaker 12: when the mantra the personal is political was coming into prominence. 1657 01:41:32,840 --> 01:41:36,000 Speaker 12: There was a greater interest in fusing personal development and 1658 01:41:36,040 --> 01:41:40,120 Speaker 12: political action. So that era, both the new psychotherapies cateringto 1659 01:41:40,120 --> 01:41:43,839 Speaker 12: a mass market that sought both happiness and social justice. 1660 01:41:44,600 --> 01:41:48,599 Speaker 12: Psychotherapy became something like a secular religion, which of course 1661 01:41:48,640 --> 01:41:51,760 Speaker 12: opened it up to Charlatan's who would propagate their innovative 1662 01:41:51,800 --> 01:41:56,160 Speaker 12: therapies and gain a following without actually testing or thought 1663 01:41:56,200 --> 01:42:00,639 Speaker 12: any scrutiny of the effectiveness of the ideas. Ieteen seventy, 1664 01:42:01,200 --> 01:42:05,680 Speaker 12: Newman assembled a small collective in Manhattan, sharing an apartment 1665 01:42:05,760 --> 01:42:10,479 Speaker 12: on the Upper West Side. By this time post By 1666 01:42:10,520 --> 01:42:12,600 Speaker 12: this time, post the collapse to the Students for a 1667 01:42:12,640 --> 01:42:16,160 Speaker 12: Democratic Society in the broader New Left, and coinciding with 1668 01:42:16,200 --> 01:42:19,320 Speaker 12: the fervor of the Cultural Revolution, people were looking for 1669 01:42:19,360 --> 01:42:22,960 Speaker 12: a new direction in a time when the psychotherapy bubble 1670 01:42:23,120 --> 01:42:28,599 Speaker 12: was growing. Newman, as another of those charismatic therapists, would 1671 01:42:28,600 --> 01:42:32,040 Speaker 12: attract a group of individuals who were yearning for hope. 1672 01:42:33,520 --> 01:42:37,360 Speaker 12: New One's collective was first named if dot dot dot then, 1673 01:42:38,439 --> 01:42:42,000 Speaker 12: and it was indeed a fusion of radical sixties politics 1674 01:42:42,000 --> 01:42:45,360 Speaker 12: and the New Age therapy of the seventies. Newman's concept 1675 01:42:45,439 --> 01:42:49,960 Speaker 12: of social therapy or crisis normalization, blurred the lines between 1676 01:42:50,040 --> 01:42:53,439 Speaker 12: therapy and political activities, and the group would give rise 1677 01:42:53,479 --> 01:42:57,240 Speaker 12: to the Centers for Change the CFC. By nineteen seventy three, 1678 01:42:57,640 --> 01:43:01,680 Speaker 12: which proudly identified itself as a Marx Leninist Maoist organization. 1679 01:43:02,479 --> 01:43:04,720 Speaker 1: The communal roots of Newman's. 1680 01:43:04,280 --> 01:43:07,439 Speaker 12: Group had cast a cult like aura from its inception. 1681 01:43:08,360 --> 01:43:12,760 Speaker 12: Core members were expected to leave their jobs, sell their possessions, 1682 01:43:13,040 --> 01:43:16,679 Speaker 12: and sustain themselves through activities like fundraising on street corners, 1683 01:43:17,000 --> 01:43:22,320 Speaker 12: while embracing shared living spaces within the group. Now buckle 1684 01:43:22,400 --> 01:43:24,880 Speaker 12: up for a bit of a crossover episode here, because 1685 01:43:24,920 --> 01:43:28,719 Speaker 12: from nineteen seventy three to nineteen seventy four Newman crossed 1686 01:43:28,760 --> 01:43:35,240 Speaker 12: paths with Lyndon LaRouche. Oh God, yes, of course he did, 1687 01:43:35,760 --> 01:43:39,879 Speaker 12: mind you. He links up with Laruche just after Laruche 1688 01:43:39,920 --> 01:43:43,479 Speaker 12: had completed Operation mop Up, so he was just attacking 1689 01:43:43,479 --> 01:43:46,160 Speaker 12: his enemies on the left and started shifting right wood 1690 01:43:46,479 --> 01:43:49,440 Speaker 12: if they use those terms, and Newman is like, yeah, 1691 01:43:49,560 --> 01:43:51,080 Speaker 12: this is my guy. This who I want to link 1692 01:43:51,160 --> 01:43:56,760 Speaker 12: up with. So their collaboration formed the United Front, comprising 1693 01:43:56,760 --> 01:44:01,639 Speaker 12: of Laruche's National Caucus of Labor Committees, the NCLC at 1694 01:44:01,720 --> 01:44:05,439 Speaker 12: Newman's Center for Change, and a third group led by 1695 01:44:05,479 --> 01:44:10,839 Speaker 12: Eugenio Parenti Ramos, which later transformed into the Communist Party 1696 01:44:11,000 --> 01:44:14,800 Speaker 12: USA Provisional, which I have to note, I have to 1697 01:44:14,840 --> 01:44:17,640 Speaker 12: know it is distinct from the Communist Party USA that 1698 01:44:17,960 --> 01:44:19,000 Speaker 12: most people know about. 1699 01:44:19,640 --> 01:44:22,599 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, I'm pretty sure there's another. I'm pretty 1700 01:44:22,600 --> 01:44:27,240 Speaker 4: sure it's also distinct from the Communist Party USA Revolutionary 1701 01:44:27,240 --> 01:44:31,120 Speaker 4: Committee and also the Communist Party USA Provisional Committee. I 1702 01:44:31,160 --> 01:44:33,280 Speaker 4: think those are if I'm remembering correctly, those are all 1703 01:44:33,320 --> 01:44:34,640 Speaker 4: separate organizations. 1704 01:44:35,240 --> 01:44:36,559 Speaker 1: Yes, yes they are. 1705 01:44:37,760 --> 01:44:42,000 Speaker 12: Yeah, Parentees group is actually connected with the National Labor 1706 01:44:42,160 --> 01:44:47,080 Speaker 12: fred Federation. So anyway, these joint forums were established and 1707 01:44:47,240 --> 01:44:51,400 Speaker 12: activities were coordinated among these groups. By nineteen seventy four, 1708 01:44:51,439 --> 01:44:54,760 Speaker 12: in fact, the Center for Change disbanded and Newman and 1709 01:44:54,840 --> 01:44:56,960 Speaker 12: his followers merged into the NCLC. 1710 01:44:57,479 --> 01:44:59,920 Speaker 1: Oh God, there was sort of a. 1711 01:45:00,160 --> 01:45:04,000 Speaker 12: Virgins between Larusha and Newman and their perspectives of leadership, 1712 01:45:04,240 --> 01:45:08,760 Speaker 12: contre formulation, and the manipulation of membership as Larusha's apocalypse, 1713 01:45:08,800 --> 01:45:12,960 Speaker 12: fair Moongarin and elitism would merge very well with Newman's 1714 01:45:13,040 --> 01:45:17,840 Speaker 12: use of psychotherapy. Of course, and you learn this quickly 1715 01:45:17,840 --> 01:45:20,639 Speaker 12: with cult leaders. They don't get along well for along 1716 01:45:20,720 --> 01:45:24,040 Speaker 12: with other cult leaders. So the fusion with Laruge led 1717 01:45:24,080 --> 01:45:29,679 Speaker 12: to inevitable clashes. While within the NCLC, the Newman group 1718 01:45:30,080 --> 01:45:35,559 Speaker 12: continued its operation, and tensions eventually reached a breaking point later. 1719 01:45:35,720 --> 01:45:37,000 Speaker 1: In August nineteen. 1720 01:45:36,680 --> 01:45:39,960 Speaker 12: Seventy four, Newman and his thirty eight followers left the 1721 01:45:40,080 --> 01:45:45,120 Speaker 12: NCLC to established the International Workers Party or IWP, which 1722 01:45:45,160 --> 01:45:50,400 Speaker 12: he declared was the vanguard of the work in class. 1723 01:45:50,840 --> 01:45:52,160 Speaker 4: Oh I love the seventies. 1724 01:45:53,000 --> 01:45:57,400 Speaker 12: Indeed, still you know Newman's association with Laruche had a 1725 01:45:57,439 --> 01:46:01,439 Speaker 12: big impact on his thinking and future developer. He aligned 1726 01:46:01,439 --> 01:46:04,360 Speaker 12: with a lot of Larusi's ideologies and was just as 1727 01:46:04,400 --> 01:46:08,880 Speaker 12: dismissive of various left movements. Even though they split, they 1728 01:46:08,920 --> 01:46:12,519 Speaker 12: still shared a disdain for common citizens, their group's members, 1729 01:46:12,760 --> 01:46:16,760 Speaker 12: and the principles of free society. Yet despite dismissing most 1730 01:46:16,840 --> 01:46:20,720 Speaker 12: left movements and saying that liberalism is fascism, Newman would 1731 01:46:20,720 --> 01:46:26,480 Speaker 12: occasionally dip his toes into democratic primaries infortiate existing leftist organizations, 1732 01:46:26,720 --> 01:46:30,200 Speaker 12: and utilized prominent black leaders to advance his own objectives. 1733 01:46:31,240 --> 01:46:33,760 Speaker 12: But I realize I haven't fully explained the focus of 1734 01:46:33,840 --> 01:46:39,679 Speaker 12: Newman's ideology. In most cases, cult leaders' ideologies ultimately hinge 1735 01:46:39,720 --> 01:46:42,559 Speaker 12: on follow me and the best, But you know they 1736 01:46:42,560 --> 01:46:44,479 Speaker 12: have their unique quirks here on there as well. 1737 01:46:45,439 --> 01:46:46,360 Speaker 1: Lucky for us. 1738 01:46:46,920 --> 01:46:49,439 Speaker 12: Newman published a book on his ideas the same year 1739 01:46:49,479 --> 01:46:52,640 Speaker 12: he parted with larushe in nineteen seventy four. So the 1740 01:46:52,680 --> 01:46:55,880 Speaker 12: book was called Power and Authority, and he basically cooked 1741 01:46:55,960 --> 01:46:58,240 Speaker 12: up a theory about the mind and society. They became 1742 01:46:58,280 --> 01:47:00,960 Speaker 12: the gospel for his cult and the ultimate manual for 1743 01:47:01,040 --> 01:47:05,200 Speaker 12: keeping his followers in check. According to Newman, revolution wasn't 1744 01:47:05,280 --> 01:47:09,360 Speaker 12: just about overthrowing the bourgeoisie. You also had to overthrow 1745 01:47:09,400 --> 01:47:15,479 Speaker 12: the bourgeoisie ego inside people's minds. So in a sense 1746 01:47:15,520 --> 01:47:17,280 Speaker 12: we cook in, you know, because you do have to 1747 01:47:17,360 --> 01:47:19,920 Speaker 12: sort of undo that brainwashing and you get. 1748 01:47:19,760 --> 01:47:20,839 Speaker 1: In a capitlict society. 1749 01:47:20,880 --> 01:47:23,760 Speaker 12: I mean, there's nothing wrong there necessarily, but you see, 1750 01:47:23,760 --> 01:47:27,200 Speaker 12: he was taking cues from Marx, Lenin and LaRouche, and 1751 01:47:27,320 --> 01:47:32,280 Speaker 12: his solution involved something called the proletarian psychotherapy, where the 1752 01:47:32,360 --> 01:47:35,479 Speaker 12: workers of the mind took down the rulers of the 1753 01:47:35,560 --> 01:47:38,080 Speaker 12: mind through therapy sessions that would attack. 1754 01:47:37,800 --> 01:47:38,679 Speaker 1: The bourgeois ego. 1755 01:47:39,439 --> 01:47:43,320 Speaker 12: Of course, he would be the one lead in the therapy, 1756 01:47:43,439 --> 01:47:46,920 Speaker 12: because you know, he hated Freudian and other psychotherapies as 1757 01:47:47,000 --> 01:47:50,800 Speaker 12: just boosting the bourgeois ego, and he especially hated that 1758 01:47:50,920 --> 01:47:55,040 Speaker 12: regular therapy is aimed to cut the emotional umbilical cord 1759 01:47:55,160 --> 01:47:58,679 Speaker 12: with the therapist and restore a healthy, independent ego, when 1760 01:47:58,720 --> 01:48:02,520 Speaker 12: his social therapy meant to build up a forever dependent 1761 01:48:02,720 --> 01:48:06,720 Speaker 12: proletarian ego that would only wither away when the proletarian 1762 01:48:06,800 --> 01:48:13,559 Speaker 12: stayed with us away. So basically never Newman's doctrines worked 1763 01:48:13,600 --> 01:48:16,840 Speaker 12: for his purposes, though his followers were stuck in this 1764 01:48:16,960 --> 01:48:21,080 Speaker 12: loop of dependency for over twenty five years. He had 1765 01:48:21,080 --> 01:48:24,840 Speaker 12: an additional component his control mechanisms, though. He developed a 1766 01:48:24,880 --> 01:48:31,000 Speaker 12: concept called friend or sexuality. So in his organizations, casual 1767 01:48:31,120 --> 01:48:35,320 Speaker 12: sexual relationships were arranged where a designated friend that you 1768 01:48:35,520 --> 01:48:40,680 Speaker 12: also had sex with monitored and critiqued individuals to maintain control. 1769 01:48:41,960 --> 01:48:46,760 Speaker 12: If pregnancies ever arose, they were usually told to get abortions. 1770 01:48:47,360 --> 01:48:50,800 Speaker 12: And as for new And himself, his inner circle was 1771 01:48:50,840 --> 01:48:54,760 Speaker 12: referred to as his haram or his wives, and they 1772 01:48:54,800 --> 01:49:00,679 Speaker 12: served as both trusted lieutenants in the administration and trusted 1773 01:49:00,760 --> 01:49:02,479 Speaker 12: lieutenants in the bedroom. 1774 01:49:03,080 --> 01:49:11,280 Speaker 1: If you dig, yes, ah, so yeah, now. 1775 01:49:11,280 --> 01:49:14,320 Speaker 12: Let's get into those segments that we can call Newman 1776 01:49:14,520 --> 01:49:21,559 Speaker 12: and the FBI sitting in the tree kissig. Because after 1777 01:49:21,600 --> 01:49:25,920 Speaker 12: the IWP was formed and briefly flirted with Marlene Dixon's 1778 01:49:25,960 --> 01:49:30,439 Speaker 12: Democratic Workers' Party, which was another cult. Newman ended up 1779 01:49:30,479 --> 01:49:34,240 Speaker 12: contacting the FBI. By the way, we are still in 1780 01:49:34,360 --> 01:49:38,640 Speaker 12: nineteen seventy four, very eventful year. So what happened was 1781 01:49:38,800 --> 01:49:42,680 Speaker 12: a guy named Jim Ratherford bailed on Newman's cult and 1782 01:49:42,840 --> 01:49:45,920 Speaker 12: took the child that was probably conceived in the cult 1783 01:49:46,040 --> 01:49:49,479 Speaker 12: with him. But you see, the child's mother and Green 1784 01:49:50,400 --> 01:49:54,000 Speaker 12: who stayed in the cult, and she wanted her child back. 1785 01:49:54,400 --> 01:49:57,840 Speaker 12: So Newman recruited two cult members that were also lawyers 1786 01:49:58,120 --> 01:50:00,719 Speaker 12: to get the FBI involved in fire and then Rutherford 1787 01:50:00,800 --> 01:50:03,599 Speaker 12: and the child. So they dialogued the FBI, set up 1788 01:50:03,600 --> 01:50:05,479 Speaker 12: a meet in between Green and the agents, and then 1789 01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:07,760 Speaker 12: Green spilled the tea that Rutherford used to roll with 1790 01:50:07,760 --> 01:50:10,839 Speaker 12: the Weather Underground and also had connection to the fugitive 1791 01:50:10,920 --> 01:50:15,240 Speaker 12: named Jane Albert. Fast forward to nineteen seventy six and 1792 01:50:15,320 --> 01:50:19,080 Speaker 12: Newman's IWP gets exposed by a splinter group for working 1793 01:50:19,160 --> 01:50:22,759 Speaker 12: with the FBI. But instead of denying it, Newman pins 1794 01:50:22,760 --> 01:50:25,200 Speaker 12: the blame on Anne Green and the two lawyers and 1795 01:50:25,200 --> 01:50:28,400 Speaker 12: basically pretends that they acted on their own without his direction, 1796 01:50:29,000 --> 01:50:31,720 Speaker 12: because obviously the mansoni looking off himself. So that was 1797 01:50:31,760 --> 01:50:34,880 Speaker 12: a fun of the side, right, well, collaboration with the FBI. 1798 01:50:35,360 --> 01:50:37,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like, if you're gonna be a snitch, at 1799 01:50:37,240 --> 01:50:42,200 Speaker 4: least have like, at least have the basic decency and 1800 01:50:42,240 --> 01:50:44,720 Speaker 4: self respect to admit that you were the snitch and 1801 01:50:44,800 --> 01:50:46,240 Speaker 4: not blameing on someone else. 1802 01:50:46,880 --> 01:50:48,679 Speaker 1: No, but a cult lead they would ever do that though. 1803 01:50:48,880 --> 01:50:50,960 Speaker 4: No terrible stuff. 1804 01:51:02,080 --> 01:51:03,520 Speaker 1: Carrying on chronologically. 1805 01:51:03,680 --> 01:51:07,000 Speaker 12: In nineteen seventy seven, Fred Newman shifted his focus to 1806 01:51:07,040 --> 01:51:11,000 Speaker 12: the political scene of New York City's Upper West Side 1807 01:51:11,120 --> 01:51:14,479 Speaker 12: and basically rebranded his group as the New York City 1808 01:51:14,600 --> 01:51:19,320 Speaker 12: Unemployed and Welfare Council. At this point, he abandoned the 1809 01:51:19,400 --> 01:51:23,960 Speaker 12: idea of an open vanguard formation and instead, while recruiting 1810 01:51:24,040 --> 01:51:28,320 Speaker 12: through therapy, gained political influence within other groups and formed 1811 01:51:28,400 --> 01:51:32,240 Speaker 12: broad and ill defined front organizations that could pursue the 1812 01:51:32,280 --> 01:51:35,920 Speaker 12: cult schools without too much heat on himself personally. Newman 1813 01:51:36,040 --> 01:51:38,240 Speaker 12: was actually able to get one of his cult members 1814 01:51:38,320 --> 01:51:41,840 Speaker 12: elected on the local school board, and that led to 1815 01:51:41,880 --> 01:51:45,240 Speaker 12: some liberals digging into Newman's background and group dynamics, where 1816 01:51:45,280 --> 01:51:48,080 Speaker 12: they found that indeed he was running a therapy cult 1817 01:51:48,080 --> 01:51:51,840 Speaker 12: where they relinquished jobs, severed political ties, and strendered all 1818 01:51:51,880 --> 01:51:52,879 Speaker 12: property and savings. 1819 01:51:53,000 --> 01:51:53,439 Speaker 1: The cult. 1820 01:51:54,760 --> 01:51:57,960 Speaker 12: Cut off from the outside world, busy with group activities 1821 01:51:58,000 --> 01:52:02,800 Speaker 12: and trapped in endless meetings, Numanites lacked feedback from reality, 1822 01:52:03,240 --> 01:52:06,880 Speaker 12: which kept them in line. So Newman's electoral victory in 1823 01:52:06,920 --> 01:52:09,040 Speaker 12: the form of the school board member of his own cult, 1824 01:52:09,360 --> 01:52:14,920 Speaker 12: gave him a taste a little for electoral activism. So 1825 01:52:15,640 --> 01:52:20,960 Speaker 12: when he crossed paths with Black nationalist Leonora Fulani, together 1826 01:52:21,000 --> 01:52:25,280 Speaker 12: they formed the New Alliance Party or NAP in nineteen 1827 01:52:25,320 --> 01:52:25,800 Speaker 12: seventy nine. 1828 01:52:25,840 --> 01:52:27,320 Speaker 1: I'll just call it the NAP, right. 1829 01:52:27,320 --> 01:52:28,840 Speaker 4: If I feel like we need to start like a 1830 01:52:28,880 --> 01:52:32,919 Speaker 4: party counter we're at like four five already. 1831 01:52:33,880 --> 01:52:40,880 Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I WP, THENAP yeah, Communist party professional yeah. 1832 01:52:41,479 --> 01:52:45,120 Speaker 12: Fulani ran for lieutenant governor of New York in nineteen 1833 01:52:45,120 --> 01:52:50,160 Speaker 12: eighty two and in nineteen eighty eight and ran for president, 1834 01:52:51,040 --> 01:52:54,360 Speaker 12: becoming the first black woman to do so, gain in 1835 01:52:54,439 --> 01:52:58,040 Speaker 12: ballot status in all fifty states and receive a nearly 1836 01:52:58,120 --> 01:53:02,320 Speaker 12: one million dollars in federal match funds. She ran again 1837 01:53:02,439 --> 01:53:05,479 Speaker 12: in nineteen ninety two and again qualified for ballot status 1838 01:53:05,479 --> 01:53:08,719 Speaker 12: in all fifty states, this time receiving two million dollars 1839 01:53:08,720 --> 01:53:12,200 Speaker 12: in federal matching funds, and she secured a whop in 1840 01:53:12,320 --> 01:53:14,799 Speaker 12: seventy three thousand, seven hundred and eight votes. 1841 01:53:16,800 --> 01:53:19,360 Speaker 4: That's always a depressing thing with these like the vanity 1842 01:53:19,600 --> 01:53:23,479 Speaker 4: electoral campaigns, is seeing how much money they spent getting 1843 01:53:23,600 --> 01:53:24,880 Speaker 4: like seven votes. 1844 01:53:26,800 --> 01:53:30,120 Speaker 12: Yeah, but I mean you'll never guess where this money 1845 01:53:30,240 --> 01:53:30,599 Speaker 12: was going. 1846 01:53:31,520 --> 01:53:32,080 Speaker 4: Oh no. 1847 01:53:33,080 --> 01:53:36,479 Speaker 12: In the background, new Ones financial maneuvers seem to be 1848 01:53:36,560 --> 01:53:40,360 Speaker 12: fundling a lot of the party's funds into other organizations 1849 01:53:40,400 --> 01:53:46,920 Speaker 12: affiliated with Newman. Lauren Redwood, Working Class Lesbian, actually shared 1850 01:53:46,920 --> 01:53:50,280 Speaker 12: her experiences working under the NAP in a letter to 1851 01:53:50,439 --> 01:53:54,479 Speaker 12: a Gain newspaper in San Francisco. I won't read the 1852 01:53:54,520 --> 01:53:56,960 Speaker 12: whole thing, but she basically talks about how she was 1853 01:53:57,040 --> 01:54:00,160 Speaker 12: excited to help a black woman run for president. She 1854 01:54:00,160 --> 01:54:02,839 Speaker 12: even found a lover while working on the campaign in Indiana, 1855 01:54:03,680 --> 01:54:07,639 Speaker 12: but quote, when it came time for NAP to leave Indiana, 1856 01:54:08,160 --> 01:54:10,960 Speaker 12: she I'm assuming the lover asked me to go with them, 1857 01:54:11,080 --> 01:54:14,439 Speaker 12: and I did. I was given forty eight hours to prepare. 1858 01:54:14,840 --> 01:54:17,720 Speaker 12: I quit my job, left my home, my friends put 1859 01:54:17,720 --> 01:54:20,360 Speaker 12: my belongings in storage, found a home for my pet, 1860 01:54:20,600 --> 01:54:22,680 Speaker 12: and gave the use of my car to NAP for 1861 01:54:22,840 --> 01:54:24,960 Speaker 12: in exchange for their take and over the pay months 1862 01:54:25,720 --> 01:54:27,799 Speaker 12: as a working class lesbian. I thought I had finally 1863 01:54:27,800 --> 01:54:30,639 Speaker 12: found a political movement which included me. What I found 1864 01:54:30,640 --> 01:54:35,720 Speaker 12: instead was an oppressive, disempowered, and misogynistic organization. All my 1865 01:54:35,760 --> 01:54:38,840 Speaker 12: decisions were made for me by someone else. I was 1866 01:54:38,840 --> 01:54:41,280 Speaker 12: told where to go and who to go with. I 1867 01:54:41,320 --> 01:54:44,640 Speaker 12: worked seven days a week, sixteen to twenty hours a day. 1868 01:54:45,120 --> 01:54:48,000 Speaker 12: I had two days off in two and a half months. 1869 01:54:48,640 --> 01:54:51,800 Speaker 12: There was an incredible urgency which overrode any personal needs 1870 01:54:51,840 --> 01:54:56,640 Speaker 12: or considerations, an urgency that meant complete self sacrifice. I 1871 01:54:56,680 --> 01:55:00,000 Speaker 12: felt totally powerless over my life, forced into a very 1872 01:55:00,040 --> 01:55:03,080 Speaker 12: submissive role where all control of my life belonged to 1873 01:55:03,080 --> 01:55:06,360 Speaker 12: someone else. I had given up everything for the campaign, 1874 01:55:06,800 --> 01:55:10,400 Speaker 12: my job, my home, and my support system. I felt desperate, 1875 01:55:11,040 --> 01:55:12,800 Speaker 12: and later in the letter she said that I was 1876 01:55:12,840 --> 01:55:16,680 Speaker 12: completely exhausted, so tired, I was unable to work well. 1877 01:55:17,280 --> 01:55:19,680 Speaker 12: Being unable to work, I had no income as I 1878 01:55:19,720 --> 01:55:22,440 Speaker 12: was expected to raise my salary myself in addition to 1879 01:55:22,520 --> 01:55:25,360 Speaker 12: raising money for the campaign. And she also spoke about 1880 01:55:25,400 --> 01:55:27,840 Speaker 12: losing herself and this social therapy thing that Newman was 1881 01:55:27,880 --> 01:55:32,360 Speaker 12: doing as a lot of independent thought was discouraged. This 1882 01:55:32,520 --> 01:55:36,880 Speaker 12: was Newman's whole emo, you know, manipulating individual distress to 1883 01:55:36,920 --> 01:55:42,680 Speaker 12: transform members into political activists under total control, replacing the 1884 01:55:42,680 --> 01:55:46,240 Speaker 12: traditional support structures that people would have been coming from 1885 01:55:46,280 --> 01:55:50,440 Speaker 12: with the cult as a new family. And despite some 1886 01:55:50,560 --> 01:55:54,920 Speaker 12: claims of dissolution, the evidence suggested that the International Workers' 1887 01:55:54,960 --> 01:56:01,000 Speaker 12: Party continued to exist even as the NAP was in existence, 1888 01:56:01,520 --> 01:56:06,440 Speaker 12: as members divested assets and funding towards the ideo BE 1889 01:56:06,880 --> 01:56:14,400 Speaker 12: the whole time. Now, it's quite interesting to learn the 1890 01:56:14,600 --> 01:56:20,720 Speaker 12: justification for why Newman picked Leonora Fulani in particular, and 1891 01:56:20,760 --> 01:56:22,760 Speaker 12: then would also link up later with some of the 1892 01:56:22,760 --> 01:56:28,040 Speaker 12: people that I'm about to talk about. So you're familiar 1893 01:56:28,040 --> 01:56:32,240 Speaker 12: with Antonio Gramsci right, Yeah. He introduced the concept of 1894 01:56:32,280 --> 01:56:37,720 Speaker 12: the organic intellectual, suggesting that each social class naturally produces 1895 01:56:37,800 --> 01:56:41,000 Speaker 12: a stratum capable of projecting its historic mission and a 1896 01:56:41,120 --> 01:56:45,360 Speaker 12: Germany on the flip side, Lenin in his What Is 1897 01:56:45,360 --> 01:56:49,920 Speaker 12: to Be Done Manifesto, envisioned a vanguard of professional revolutionaries 1898 01:56:49,920 --> 01:56:54,120 Speaker 12: from the intellectual elite to bring socialism to the working class. 1899 01:56:55,480 --> 01:56:59,880 Speaker 12: Newman was influenced by both concepts and considered his core 1900 01:57:00,040 --> 01:57:04,240 Speaker 12: group to be a vanguard mainly composed of white, middle 1901 01:57:04,240 --> 01:57:10,040 Speaker 12: class traditional intellectuals, often working as therapists for Newmanite fronts. 1902 01:57:10,760 --> 01:57:14,800 Speaker 12: But here's the twist. He borrowed gram Shee's organic leader's 1903 01:57:14,880 --> 01:57:18,480 Speaker 12: term and connected with people of color that had organic 1904 01:57:18,520 --> 01:57:21,480 Speaker 12: basis of support in their communities and would use them 1905 01:57:21,480 --> 01:57:24,880 Speaker 12: to advance the interests of his secretive white. 1906 01:57:24,520 --> 01:57:26,560 Speaker 4: Vanguard ah the PSL. 1907 01:57:29,680 --> 01:57:32,960 Speaker 12: Indeed, so that's why Newman would create his own version 1908 01:57:33,160 --> 01:57:37,840 Speaker 12: of the Rainbow Coalition with his Rainbow Assembly and also 1909 01:57:37,920 --> 01:57:40,520 Speaker 12: would engage with people like Lewis. 1910 01:57:40,200 --> 01:57:42,640 Speaker 1: Farkhan, Al Sharpton and else. 1911 01:57:43,920 --> 01:57:50,000 Speaker 12: Yeah, however, and political incoherence goes BurrH, he'd also link 1912 01:57:50,080 --> 01:57:53,720 Speaker 12: up with vague populist movements like Ross Puro's Reform Party, 1913 01:57:54,160 --> 01:57:57,040 Speaker 12: who he'd work to register voters for, and in an 1914 01:57:57,040 --> 01:57:59,600 Speaker 12: effort to gain more voters for the right winger Ross 1915 01:57:59,600 --> 01:58:03,880 Speaker 12: Pero's Reform Party, Newman and Fulani would encourage the Patriotic 1916 01:58:03,960 --> 01:58:07,080 Speaker 12: Party at the Independence Party of New York to link 1917 01:58:07,160 --> 01:58:10,560 Speaker 12: up with Peru, and then in nineteen ninety nine, the 1918 01:58:10,640 --> 01:58:14,400 Speaker 12: Newmanites threw their support behind the Paleo conservative pat Buchanans 1919 01:58:14,440 --> 01:58:17,960 Speaker 12: presidential campaign. So, in addition to his political activity, is 1920 01:58:18,880 --> 01:58:23,720 Speaker 12: Fred Newman wore many hats. He considered himself a playwright 1921 01:58:24,040 --> 01:58:26,840 Speaker 12: and staled as the artistic director of the Castillo Theater. 1922 01:58:27,680 --> 01:58:30,080 Speaker 12: He also directed train in at the east Side Institute 1923 01:58:30,080 --> 01:58:34,200 Speaker 12: for Short Term Psychotherapy, authored books featured at the Castillo Bookstore, 1924 01:58:34,600 --> 01:58:38,920 Speaker 12: and operated social therapy centers in various cities, describing them 1925 01:58:38,960 --> 01:58:44,120 Speaker 12: as a unique development community. Despite the deprivations imposed on 1926 01:58:44,160 --> 01:58:48,840 Speaker 12: his followers, as they can imagine, Newman lived quite comfortably. 1927 01:58:49,760 --> 01:58:53,879 Speaker 12: In nineteen ninety three, he bought a substantial Greenwich Village 1928 01:58:53,920 --> 01:58:58,840 Speaker 12: brownstone for nearly a million dollars. I mean, who says 1929 01:58:58,840 --> 01:59:02,120 Speaker 12: a cult of revolution and therapy kabi profits, right? 1930 01:59:04,040 --> 01:59:07,480 Speaker 4: I keep I keep thinking about that. Oh God, I 1931 01:59:07,520 --> 01:59:11,840 Speaker 4: forget which of the the Nepali maoist parties it was, 1932 01:59:12,600 --> 01:59:14,560 Speaker 4: but one of one of one of the guys who 1933 01:59:14,600 --> 01:59:16,720 Speaker 4: was the head of one of the Nepalese MAOIs parties 1934 01:59:16,720 --> 01:59:18,960 Speaker 4: who'd been like fighting a guerrilla war for a long time. 1935 01:59:19,000 --> 01:59:20,960 Speaker 4: The end of it was, he moved into the house 1936 01:59:21,040 --> 01:59:23,040 Speaker 4: of the guy, the mansion of the guy who'd been 1937 01:59:24,080 --> 01:59:25,760 Speaker 4: like Nepal's chief security minister. 1938 01:59:27,160 --> 01:59:27,800 Speaker 1: That's wild. 1939 01:59:30,200 --> 01:59:32,120 Speaker 4: It's a revolution because it goes in a circle and 1940 01:59:32,160 --> 01:59:33,480 Speaker 4: you end up right back where you were. 1941 01:59:36,400 --> 01:59:39,920 Speaker 12: I don't remember that one. That's a that's a good quote. Yeah, 1942 01:59:39,960 --> 01:59:44,120 Speaker 12: a lot of these organizations like bleazanty cults. 1943 01:59:44,160 --> 01:59:46,440 Speaker 1: But of course. 1944 01:59:46,440 --> 01:59:49,520 Speaker 12: Newmann, Fulani and others would always deny that they were 1945 01:59:49,560 --> 01:59:50,080 Speaker 12: in a cult. 1946 01:59:51,080 --> 01:59:51,840 Speaker 1: Cults always do. 1947 01:59:52,720 --> 01:59:55,520 Speaker 12: So you look at the evidence, and the evidence points 1948 01:59:55,520 --> 01:59:55,920 Speaker 12: to cult. 1949 01:59:56,720 --> 01:59:59,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, my, my, my, not a cult. T shirts raising 1950 01:59:59,880 --> 02:00:01,800 Speaker 4: a a lot of questions that are answered by the 1951 02:00:01,800 --> 02:00:02,360 Speaker 4: the T shirt. 1952 02:00:03,240 --> 02:00:05,960 Speaker 12: Yeah yeah, I love how when I first introduced my 1953 02:00:06,480 --> 02:00:10,720 Speaker 12: organization after apply disclaimers were actually not a cult, you know, 1954 02:00:11,760 --> 02:00:17,920 Speaker 12: like that one meme from King of the Hill. 1955 02:00:18,000 --> 02:00:18,160 Speaker 1: Right. 1956 02:00:19,520 --> 02:00:24,520 Speaker 12: So, one critic of Newman wrote an article called Inside 1957 02:00:24,600 --> 02:00:30,600 Speaker 12: the New Alliance Party Dennis Surratt, and despite initially thinking 1958 02:00:30,720 --> 02:00:34,200 Speaker 12: that the NAP was a progressive organization, he ended up 1959 02:00:34,200 --> 02:00:39,720 Speaker 12: detailing psychological control, racism, sexism, and the use of millions 1960 02:00:39,760 --> 02:00:44,080 Speaker 12: of dollars to manipulate well made individuals, particularly target in 1961 02:00:44,120 --> 02:00:48,680 Speaker 12: the black community. The internal structure was of course hierarchical, 1962 02:00:49,200 --> 02:00:52,720 Speaker 12: as Newman lived luxuriously while the rank and file members 1963 02:00:52,720 --> 02:00:57,000 Speaker 12: worked to long hours and even faced mandatory taxes to 1964 02:00:57,080 --> 02:00:59,600 Speaker 12: support new One's seaside mansion. 1965 02:01:00,040 --> 02:01:00,680 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 1966 02:01:01,840 --> 02:01:06,240 Speaker 12: Numan's political positions were opportunistic. Obviously, they changed based on 1967 02:01:06,320 --> 02:01:09,840 Speaker 12: the perceived benefits to him and his attacks on individuals. 1968 02:01:09,960 --> 02:01:14,720 Speaker 12: Organizations were ruthless when they failed to support him. When 1969 02:01:14,720 --> 02:01:18,640 Speaker 12: members joined, whether through politics or therapy, they were required 1970 02:01:18,640 --> 02:01:21,320 Speaker 12: to reveal all their resources and turn them over to 1971 02:01:21,320 --> 02:01:26,120 Speaker 12: the organization. They had to go through mandatory psychotherapy sessions, 1972 02:01:27,440 --> 02:01:31,520 Speaker 12: which served as a method to recruit vulnerable individuals, exploit 1973 02:01:31,520 --> 02:01:33,760 Speaker 12: their weaknesses, and control their behavior. 1974 02:01:34,800 --> 02:01:35,000 Speaker 1: Now. 1975 02:01:35,040 --> 02:01:38,760 Speaker 12: In another article, Marina Ortiz, who was a former leader 1976 02:01:39,120 --> 02:01:42,640 Speaker 12: in the New Alliance Party, explained why she resigned from 1977 02:01:42,680 --> 02:01:48,720 Speaker 12: the NAP. What happened was the leadership told her to 1978 02:01:48,840 --> 02:01:53,400 Speaker 12: put a child in foster care. I assume because the 1979 02:01:53,480 --> 02:01:55,640 Speaker 12: child and her child care was getting in the way 1980 02:01:55,720 --> 02:01:59,000 Speaker 12: of her full dedication to the cause. So she revealed 1981 02:01:59,040 --> 02:02:01,560 Speaker 12: the NAP did not live up to claims of promoting 1982 02:02:01,600 --> 02:02:07,320 Speaker 12: democracy obviously, and would use manipulative tactics and obstruct minority empowerment, 1983 02:02:08,040 --> 02:02:12,080 Speaker 12: and had a long history of attacking progressives and embracing 1984 02:02:12,160 --> 02:02:16,680 Speaker 12: Pero's nineteen ninety two presidential bid and the harsh streatment 1985 02:02:16,840 --> 02:02:21,160 Speaker 12: dissent in voices. In the end, in the book On 1986 02:02:21,200 --> 02:02:25,160 Speaker 12: the Edge, Denis Tursi and Tim Wreforth end up termining 1987 02:02:25,240 --> 02:02:30,320 Speaker 12: Newman's work new age Leninism, which I think is a 1988 02:02:30,360 --> 02:02:33,280 Speaker 12: really good phrase to use to describe what he was doing. 1989 02:02:34,320 --> 02:02:36,680 Speaker 12: He had a strong knack for manipulating politics. 1990 02:02:36,920 --> 02:02:37,760 Speaker 1: And even with. 1991 02:02:37,760 --> 02:02:42,440 Speaker 12: Newman dead and gone, the Newmanites have already proved themselves 1992 02:02:42,600 --> 02:02:46,440 Speaker 12: skilled political operatives, regardless of their actual size. So the 1993 02:02:46,480 --> 02:02:48,800 Speaker 12: potential for someone to fill his role in the future 1994 02:02:49,600 --> 02:02:54,920 Speaker 12: definitely remains, especially given the state of US politics. 1995 02:02:56,360 --> 02:02:57,160 Speaker 1: If you want to learn. 1996 02:02:57,040 --> 02:02:59,320 Speaker 12: More, like I said, definitely read on the Edge and 1997 02:02:59,440 --> 02:03:03,080 Speaker 12: also check the article how Totalism Works by Alexandra Stein, 1998 02:03:03,400 --> 02:03:05,960 Speaker 12: who was a survivor of a different cult who ended 1999 02:03:06,040 --> 02:03:09,839 Speaker 12: up doing a dissertation on New One. As for final words, 2000 02:03:10,720 --> 02:03:17,680 Speaker 12: stay away from cults base if it has Democratic Workers 2001 02:03:17,720 --> 02:03:22,600 Speaker 12: Party or People's Party of such and such or popular support, 2002 02:03:24,920 --> 02:03:27,720 Speaker 12: m scrutinize it a little bit, you know. Look, it's 2003 02:03:27,720 --> 02:03:29,720 Speaker 12: like at the structure, that's like what they're asking you 2004 02:03:29,800 --> 02:03:33,839 Speaker 12: to do, especially if the leadership considers themselves a vanguard 2005 02:03:33,920 --> 02:03:34,840 Speaker 12: despite having like. 2006 02:03:36,280 --> 02:03:38,280 Speaker 1: Fifteen members. 2007 02:03:39,560 --> 02:03:42,760 Speaker 12: Honestly, you probably shouldn't follow a group of any size 2008 02:03:43,120 --> 02:03:45,040 Speaker 12: that considers itself a vanguard. 2009 02:03:45,800 --> 02:03:46,440 Speaker 1: But that's. 2010 02:03:47,840 --> 02:03:54,120 Speaker 12: Typical for something for someone like me to putform. That's 2011 02:03:54,320 --> 02:03:57,160 Speaker 12: that's all I have to say on New One. Check 2012 02:03:57,160 --> 02:04:00,320 Speaker 12: on your friend with sexuals. They're probably going through it 2013 02:04:00,400 --> 02:04:02,560 Speaker 12: right now. We'll power to all the people. 2014 02:04:03,680 --> 02:04:20,280 Speaker 4: Peace, Welcome to it could happen here a podcast coming 2015 02:04:20,320 --> 02:04:22,919 Speaker 4: to you from a country rule by nine unelected dipshits 2016 02:04:22,920 --> 02:04:25,760 Speaker 4: and hideous costumes. You can at a whim destroy your life. 2017 02:04:25,920 --> 02:04:28,840 Speaker 4: I'm your host. Be along with me as Jim stout. 2018 02:04:29,280 --> 02:04:32,680 Speaker 11: Hi, I'm excited to hear about the Supreme Council or 2019 02:04:32,680 --> 02:04:35,280 Speaker 11: whatever they called. It's like the Jedi Council. 2020 02:04:36,240 --> 02:04:39,280 Speaker 4: God, It's it's a problematic comparison in a lot of ways, 2021 02:04:40,200 --> 02:04:43,080 Speaker 4: but like the thing I immediately think of is the 2022 02:04:43,200 --> 02:04:47,760 Speaker 4: extent is like like Iran, Like I don't like and 2023 02:04:47,840 --> 02:04:50,440 Speaker 4: you're not like Ran, right, but Iran gets so much 2024 02:04:50,480 --> 02:04:53,240 Speaker 4: shit for having the Surer Council. Right, this is like 2025 02:04:53,240 --> 02:04:56,280 Speaker 4: this council that's above their parliament, above their president, and 2026 02:04:56,280 --> 02:04:57,840 Speaker 4: it can make a bunch of decisions as a bunch 2027 02:04:57,880 --> 02:05:00,200 Speaker 4: of power. It's like, we also have a s Sure 2028 02:05:00,200 --> 02:05:02,880 Speaker 4: a Council, except instead of protecting the Islamic Revolution, it's 2029 02:05:02,920 --> 02:05:04,800 Speaker 4: designed to protect like the ideology of a bunch of 2030 02:05:04,880 --> 02:05:06,720 Speaker 4: right wingers from Harvard And it's. 2031 02:05:06,560 --> 02:05:11,400 Speaker 11: Like, well this is great for sure, Like yes, yeah, 2032 02:05:11,400 --> 02:05:14,280 Speaker 11: we we have a group of unelected, half dead people 2033 02:05:14,640 --> 02:05:19,440 Speaker 11: whose entire thing is to protect like capital and specifically 2034 02:05:19,680 --> 02:05:22,240 Speaker 11: the theft of land from indigenous peoples. That the thing 2035 02:05:22,360 --> 02:05:24,360 Speaker 11: that that they love to do. 2036 02:05:25,240 --> 02:05:27,400 Speaker 4: And again to defend a round here, like we did 2037 02:05:27,400 --> 02:05:30,800 Speaker 4: this first, Like this is like. 2038 02:05:31,680 --> 02:05:34,360 Speaker 11: That one won't get ever clipped out and used in 2039 02:05:34,440 --> 02:05:38,760 Speaker 11: other context. That's great. We kind of pioted this right 2040 02:05:38,800 --> 02:05:40,480 Speaker 11: like we were we were trying to trying to like 2041 02:05:40,720 --> 02:05:44,480 Speaker 11: take the give monarchism a soft landing, you know, So 2042 02:05:44,960 --> 02:05:48,240 Speaker 11: we we had some other unelected half dead people. 2043 02:05:49,320 --> 02:05:52,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, and this has the results of this have been 2044 02:05:52,200 --> 02:05:54,919 Speaker 4: disastrous and are widely regarded by everyone as a disaster. 2045 02:05:55,440 --> 02:05:57,720 Speaker 4: So we're gonna be talking about a few cases that 2046 02:05:57,840 --> 02:06:03,840 Speaker 4: Supreme Court is going to do, and also we're going 2047 02:06:03,880 --> 02:06:05,520 Speaker 4: to be talking about the street record and how it 2048 02:06:05,600 --> 02:06:07,840 Speaker 4: relates to sort of liberal what I guess I would 2049 02:06:07,840 --> 02:06:10,640 Speaker 4: call sort of liberal NGO, a sort of progressive NGO 2050 02:06:11,120 --> 02:06:13,880 Speaker 4: political and legal strategy, because all of that stuff needs 2051 02:06:13,880 --> 02:06:17,200 Speaker 4: to be thrown out the window immediately and it hasn't been. Yeah, 2052 02:06:17,560 --> 02:06:20,320 Speaker 4: So all right, let's just start with Texas Bill four, 2053 02:06:21,160 --> 02:06:28,160 Speaker 4: a very basically just like a turbo fascism bill that 2054 02:06:28,240 --> 02:06:31,120 Speaker 4: lets Texas police racially profile someone and go, I think 2055 02:06:31,160 --> 02:06:33,600 Speaker 4: this person's here legally and immediately arrest them. 2056 02:06:33,920 --> 02:06:34,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. 2057 02:06:34,240 --> 02:06:36,000 Speaker 11: Crucially, it's it's I think. 2058 02:06:35,880 --> 02:06:40,080 Speaker 4: Right, like yeah, so it's like again we are giving 2059 02:06:40,280 --> 02:06:45,040 Speaker 4: the Texas police, like the heroes who ran away from Uvaldi, 2060 02:06:45,120 --> 02:06:49,080 Speaker 4: we are giving them the power to go, this person 2061 02:06:49,200 --> 02:06:51,840 Speaker 4: isn't white, I think they're here legally, I can arrest them. 2062 02:06:52,360 --> 02:06:55,440 Speaker 4: And then if they do arrest someone who's undocumented. There's 2063 02:06:56,080 --> 02:06:57,960 Speaker 4: the basically the way it works. It so it's it's 2064 02:06:58,000 --> 02:07:02,240 Speaker 4: it's it sets up a series of like criminal penalties 2065 02:07:02,360 --> 02:07:04,960 Speaker 4: like prison time. I think if you repeat offender, you 2066 02:07:05,000 --> 02:07:07,440 Speaker 4: get a felony. But mostly what it does is it 2067 02:07:07,520 --> 02:07:09,400 Speaker 4: less a judge immediately just support them. 2068 02:07:09,760 --> 02:07:10,040 Speaker 9: Now. 2069 02:07:10,240 --> 02:07:15,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is, to use a technical term, obviously insanely illegal, 2070 02:07:16,440 --> 02:07:19,840 Speaker 4: like constitutionally like it is. The Constitution is very clear 2071 02:07:19,960 --> 02:07:23,280 Speaker 4: that that immigration is is, you know, constitutionally the purview 2072 02:07:23,280 --> 02:07:27,480 Speaker 4: of the federal government. It's very funny reading like Scotus 2073 02:07:27,480 --> 02:07:30,880 Speaker 4: Blog because people have to sort of pretend that like 2074 02:07:31,000 --> 02:07:33,000 Speaker 4: people are making real legal arguments here. 2075 02:07:33,720 --> 02:07:36,400 Speaker 11: Yeah, it's like when when Donald Trump is ever like 2076 02:07:37,080 --> 02:07:40,720 Speaker 11: we're we're looking at Donald Trump's policies next week spoiler alert. 2077 02:07:40,840 --> 02:07:44,160 Speaker 11: But like I've been writing about his proposed immigration policies 2078 02:07:44,320 --> 02:07:46,560 Speaker 11: and you have to be like, no, this shit's just 2079 02:07:46,600 --> 02:07:50,560 Speaker 11: fucking it's not legal. It's just not like, yeah, some 2080 02:07:50,640 --> 02:07:52,760 Speaker 11: crackpot old dude who thinks the fringe is on the 2081 02:07:52,760 --> 02:07:55,320 Speaker 11: flag mean that you're under abraltry law. That he's got 2082 02:07:55,320 --> 02:07:57,880 Speaker 11: a fucking argument, but he's wrong, Like this is ready 2083 02:07:57,960 --> 02:07:58,800 Speaker 11: to illegal shit. 2084 02:08:00,280 --> 02:08:00,520 Speaker 5: Yeah. 2085 02:08:00,560 --> 02:08:02,760 Speaker 4: And so so this bill was supposed to go into effect. 2086 02:08:02,800 --> 02:08:05,400 Speaker 4: There there's a whole series of very convoluted court battles 2087 02:08:05,440 --> 02:08:07,760 Speaker 4: over it, and this real court was just like, yeah, 2088 02:08:07,880 --> 02:08:11,720 Speaker 4: this can go into effect and until basically until the 2089 02:08:11,760 --> 02:08:13,960 Speaker 4: case goes on, and then eventually it eventually didn't go 2090 02:08:14,000 --> 02:08:18,600 Speaker 4: into effect because another another federal court was like, obviously 2091 02:08:18,680 --> 02:08:21,000 Speaker 4: this is insane. We can't let this go into effect. 2092 02:08:21,040 --> 02:08:23,320 Speaker 4: What the fuck are you guys talking about? And like 2093 02:08:23,520 --> 02:08:27,120 Speaker 4: this this bill the legal justification for this, he's batshit. 2094 02:08:27,360 --> 02:08:34,640 Speaker 4: It's so okay. They're trying to invoke the state war clause, 2095 02:08:35,440 --> 02:08:38,360 Speaker 4: which is this is this really like old timey law? Okay. 2096 02:08:38,360 --> 02:08:41,600 Speaker 4: So the thing the thing about like the seventeen hundreds, 2097 02:08:41,600 --> 02:08:45,280 Speaker 4: in the eighteen hundreds is that it takes a significant 2098 02:08:45,280 --> 02:08:48,400 Speaker 4: amount of time to get people from I don't know, 2099 02:08:48,520 --> 02:08:52,440 Speaker 4: You're you're you're drawing your like border militia from Kentucky 2100 02:08:53,080 --> 02:08:55,120 Speaker 4: and you're you're moving it to Texas. 2101 02:08:55,400 --> 02:08:55,560 Speaker 9: Right. 2102 02:08:55,920 --> 02:08:58,840 Speaker 4: That takes a lot of time. And so basically it 2103 02:08:58,880 --> 02:09:01,120 Speaker 4: was like, okay, so if if you're Texas and you're 2104 02:09:01,160 --> 02:09:04,760 Speaker 4: getting attacked by someone, you're supposed to be able to 2105 02:09:04,840 --> 02:09:06,440 Speaker 4: use your own troops to defend it, and you're supposed 2106 02:09:06,440 --> 02:09:08,760 Speaker 4: to be able to like sort of semi autonomously run 2107 02:09:08,800 --> 02:09:11,640 Speaker 4: your own defense policy, right, And that was supposed to 2108 02:09:11,640 --> 02:09:15,000 Speaker 4: be a thing to let to allow states to like 2109 02:09:15,640 --> 02:09:18,400 Speaker 4: you know, use their militia to do stuff before like 2110 02:09:18,560 --> 02:09:23,960 Speaker 4: federal troops got there. Abbott is arguing that people crossing 2111 02:09:23,960 --> 02:09:27,080 Speaker 4: the border from Mexico is an invasion and that this 2112 02:09:27,200 --> 02:09:30,400 Speaker 4: allows him to like legally allows him to start doing 2113 02:09:30,480 --> 02:09:35,240 Speaker 4: this stuff. And this is like, it's it's funny because 2114 02:09:35,240 --> 02:09:37,920 Speaker 4: you can even see that the Biden administration people being like, 2115 02:09:37,960 --> 02:09:39,959 Speaker 4: you've got to be fucking kidding me, because like obviously, 2116 02:09:40,600 --> 02:09:43,160 Speaker 4: like I mean, it's not like Biden doesn't want to 2117 02:09:43,200 --> 02:09:46,040 Speaker 4: murder people coming over the border, but you know, Biden's 2118 02:09:46,040 --> 02:09:48,160 Speaker 4: people are like, well, okay, like no, obviously this is 2119 02:09:48,200 --> 02:09:51,600 Speaker 4: not a war, right, I mean just a no in 2120 02:09:51,600 --> 02:09:53,280 Speaker 4: fact that war we're talking about. 2121 02:09:54,600 --> 02:09:58,200 Speaker 11: No, Yeah, I mean that that was kind of always 2122 02:09:58,240 --> 02:10:02,880 Speaker 11: the obvious endpoint with this invasion military males rehetoric, right, 2123 02:10:02,880 --> 02:10:04,480 Speaker 11: it was like, okay, well we better shoot them all 2124 02:10:04,600 --> 02:10:06,720 Speaker 11: like that that was play what they were shooting for. 2125 02:10:08,000 --> 02:10:12,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's it's really it's gotten. Really, it's gotten 2126 02:10:12,080 --> 02:10:14,160 Speaker 4: really really grim and it's it's gotten you know again, 2127 02:10:14,200 --> 02:10:15,720 Speaker 4: It's it's literally getting to this point when they're trying 2128 02:10:15,720 --> 02:10:17,600 Speaker 4: to argue that there is a physical war going on 2129 02:10:17,720 --> 02:10:19,760 Speaker 4: and you read these articles about it, and the press 2130 02:10:19,800 --> 02:10:22,200 Speaker 4: will be like, well they're saying this because like people 2131 02:10:22,240 --> 02:10:24,560 Speaker 4: are crossing the border and like there's cartels. It's like, 2132 02:10:25,560 --> 02:10:28,560 Speaker 4: what the fuck are you talking about? This has nothing, like, 2133 02:10:28,720 --> 02:10:31,600 Speaker 4: this is nothing. This is literally nonsense. Like it is. 2134 02:10:31,640 --> 02:10:34,680 Speaker 4: They are pointing at the sky and going the sky 2135 02:10:34,840 --> 02:10:38,720 Speaker 4: is orange, and the press is going, well, if you like, 2136 02:10:38,880 --> 02:10:41,960 Speaker 4: if you stare directly into the sun and then blink, 2137 02:10:42,320 --> 02:10:44,640 Speaker 4: it looks like maybe this sky is a little bit 2138 02:10:44,760 --> 02:10:47,640 Speaker 4: or just like what the fuck are you people doing? 2139 02:10:48,000 --> 02:10:51,240 Speaker 4: It's it's it's genuay at least it's some of the 2140 02:10:51,280 --> 02:10:53,520 Speaker 4: worst shertalistic about practice I've ever seen you see this 2141 02:10:53,600 --> 02:10:55,360 Speaker 4: like every single time they're trying to do this sort 2142 02:10:55,360 --> 02:10:58,160 Speaker 4: of like ah balance, It's like, no, there's no actual 2143 02:10:59,080 --> 02:11:00,880 Speaker 4: sort of balance here. But on the other hand, this 2144 02:11:00,920 --> 02:11:03,480 Speaker 4: doesn't matter because the Supreme Court was just like, yeah, 2145 02:11:03,480 --> 02:11:06,600 Speaker 4: this can go into effect, right, And like. 2146 02:11:07,080 --> 02:11:09,880 Speaker 11: The other thing you'll see, like I guess this was 2147 02:11:09,920 --> 02:11:13,320 Speaker 11: more in the Trump era, right, was like, yeah, you'd 2148 02:11:13,320 --> 02:11:16,120 Speaker 11: see someone Trump would do a thing and everyone rather 2149 02:11:16,120 --> 02:11:18,440 Speaker 11: than just being like if this one's fucking illegal, everyone, 2150 02:11:18,720 --> 02:11:21,400 Speaker 11: can we just wrap this up? Seth Aberton would write 2151 02:11:21,440 --> 02:11:24,400 Speaker 11: seventy five thousand tweets about how like it was going 2152 02:11:24,440 --> 02:11:27,840 Speaker 11: to result, and people began to have this belief that 2153 02:11:27,920 --> 02:11:30,760 Speaker 11: like the fucking Supreme Court was made up of like 2154 02:11:30,880 --> 02:11:34,480 Speaker 11: magical rainbow unicorns who were gonna sweep in and save 2155 02:11:34,560 --> 02:11:36,480 Speaker 11: us all from fascistm Like these are the same people 2156 02:11:36,720 --> 02:11:38,680 Speaker 11: hanging out with the guys who had the like fascist 2157 02:11:38,720 --> 02:11:46,360 Speaker 11: statues and yeah, taking massive kickbags. Like it's just none 2158 02:11:46,440 --> 02:11:49,280 Speaker 11: of this legality stuff. I guess, No, it doesn't matter. 2159 02:11:49,440 --> 02:11:50,000 Speaker 4: It doesn't matter. 2160 02:11:50,160 --> 02:11:53,800 Speaker 11: It's a problem, yeah, And like I think this is 2161 02:11:53,840 --> 02:11:55,320 Speaker 11: something that you were hint to get earlier, but like 2162 02:11:55,320 --> 02:11:58,400 Speaker 11: it shouldn't factor in our organizing. Like I see so 2163 02:11:58,560 --> 02:12:01,120 Speaker 11: many people pinned so much hope on ex court case 2164 02:12:01,200 --> 02:12:04,600 Speaker 11: or why court case like institutions created by people who 2165 02:12:04,680 --> 02:12:07,920 Speaker 11: owned other human beings. I'm not going to fucking save us. 2166 02:12:09,080 --> 02:12:11,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, And you know, this is something that the right 2167 02:12:11,440 --> 02:12:13,520 Speaker 4: has actually, I think understood it very well, partially in 2168 02:12:13,560 --> 02:12:15,200 Speaker 4: the way that they've they've been able to sort of 2169 02:12:15,280 --> 02:12:19,040 Speaker 4: institutionally capture huge portions of the court system. And because 2170 02:12:19,120 --> 02:12:23,200 Speaker 4: they understand that the law is fucking meaningless and you know, 2171 02:12:23,240 --> 02:12:25,160 Speaker 4: it's it's you can because and you can just tell 2172 02:12:25,200 --> 02:12:28,080 Speaker 4: the cops to do whatever the fuck you want. One 2173 02:12:28,080 --> 02:12:30,600 Speaker 4: of the strategies they've been using has like if specifically, 2174 02:12:30,600 --> 02:12:34,720 Speaker 4: to get this bill through, is by just having judges 2175 02:12:34,840 --> 02:12:38,400 Speaker 4: issue like temporary injunctions and other injunctions to like allow 2176 02:12:38,520 --> 02:12:40,000 Speaker 4: them to go into effect, but then you know, with 2177 02:12:40,040 --> 02:12:42,560 Speaker 4: the intention of just never letting them expire. Right, So 2178 02:12:42,600 --> 02:12:46,000 Speaker 4: what you're getting basically is just judges implementing policy by 2179 02:12:46,040 --> 02:12:48,760 Speaker 4: fiat by continuously going, oh, well, this can go, this 2180 02:12:48,800 --> 02:12:50,520 Speaker 4: can go because we're giving like a where we're you know, 2181 02:12:50,560 --> 02:12:54,360 Speaker 4: we're on like our thirty eighth one month injunction and right, 2182 02:12:54,880 --> 02:12:57,240 Speaker 4: you know, and this is the thing that like the 2183 02:12:57,280 --> 02:13:00,320 Speaker 4: Biden administration's plan to deal with this is to be like, well, 2184 02:13:00,320 --> 02:13:03,000 Speaker 4: you shouldn't be able to do that, but like, how 2185 02:13:03,040 --> 02:13:05,160 Speaker 4: are you going to stop them? Right? The court system 2186 02:13:05,200 --> 02:13:07,680 Speaker 4: is set up in such a way that these people 2187 02:13:07,800 --> 02:13:11,200 Speaker 4: are just feudal lords. They're almost completely autonomous. The only 2188 02:13:11,200 --> 02:13:13,920 Speaker 4: people who can overrule them are the people above them. 2189 02:13:13,920 --> 02:13:15,600 Speaker 4: But the problem there too, and this is what the 2190 02:13:15,640 --> 02:13:19,680 Speaker 4: Republicans have been using very effectively, is that it takes 2191 02:13:19,760 --> 02:13:24,120 Speaker 4: time for a court above it to you know, just 2192 02:13:24,360 --> 02:13:26,920 Speaker 4: to overrule the like insane thing the court below them 2193 02:13:27,000 --> 02:13:28,400 Speaker 4: is doing. And if the court below them is just 2194 02:13:28,440 --> 02:13:33,280 Speaker 4: constantly churning out just nonsense over and over again, then 2195 02:13:33,440 --> 02:13:35,200 Speaker 4: they can just do whatever the fuck they want. Because 2196 02:13:35,240 --> 02:13:38,120 Speaker 4: even even if the court above them actually did want 2197 02:13:38,160 --> 02:13:40,080 Speaker 4: to do something about this, which in a very rare 2198 02:13:40,120 --> 02:13:43,560 Speaker 4: cases sometimes happens, they literally can't because they've just been 2199 02:13:43,880 --> 02:13:45,600 Speaker 4: you know, because they're just sort of swamped by all 2200 02:13:45,640 --> 02:13:48,840 Speaker 4: of this just absolute bullshit that's being thrown out. 2201 02:13:49,240 --> 02:13:51,920 Speaker 11: Yeah, Like, if you take a case which just to 2202 02:13:52,000 --> 02:13:54,480 Speaker 11: not make this like a partizan thing, if you take 2203 02:13:54,520 --> 02:13:57,280 Speaker 11: a case in which, like the Supreme Court might line 2204 02:13:57,320 --> 02:14:00,480 Speaker 11: up with the I guess I love of republic competition 2205 02:14:00,640 --> 02:14:02,880 Speaker 11: as a position that many people listening to this podcast 2206 02:14:02,960 --> 02:14:06,760 Speaker 11: might take. For instance, California's gun laws, right, California passes 2207 02:14:06,880 --> 02:14:11,240 Speaker 11: so many fucking gun laws so often that the time 2208 02:14:11,480 --> 02:14:15,080 Speaker 11: that it takes for even if they are like contravening 2209 02:14:15,120 --> 02:14:18,000 Speaker 11: something like the Brewin decision, right or the spirit of 2210 02:14:18,000 --> 02:14:21,520 Speaker 11: the Brewing decision, it takes so long for them to 2211 02:14:21,560 --> 02:14:23,320 Speaker 11: pass all the way up and maybe eventually go to 2212 02:14:23,400 --> 02:14:26,800 Speaker 11: Supreme Court, maybe not right, that that in effect, California 2213 02:14:26,840 --> 02:14:30,720 Speaker 11: can do things which seem like the Supreme Court would 2214 02:14:30,800 --> 02:14:35,960 Speaker 11: say they were unconstitutional. It doesn't really matter because they 2215 02:14:36,000 --> 02:14:39,640 Speaker 11: can still do them right. And with the go go 2216 02:14:39,720 --> 02:14:42,120 Speaker 11: to the Night Circuit in California, you can make decisions 2217 02:14:42,160 --> 02:14:45,800 Speaker 11: that affirm those and like it doesn't matter, It doesn't 2218 02:14:45,840 --> 02:14:49,040 Speaker 11: matter what's constitutional or more importantly, like what's just. 2219 02:14:53,440 --> 02:14:55,600 Speaker 4: If you look if you're looking for the justices for 2220 02:14:55,800 --> 02:14:58,680 Speaker 4: justice who are looking in the wrong place. Yeah, exactly. 2221 02:14:58,760 --> 02:15:01,240 Speaker 11: And when it comes to bord Us, I guess before 2222 02:15:01,280 --> 02:15:05,400 Speaker 11: that me is talking about like that kills people, you know, 2223 02:15:05,520 --> 02:15:09,400 Speaker 11: like like and some of the most desperate people on earth. 2224 02:15:09,480 --> 02:15:12,760 Speaker 11: Like I've been to the border in Texas, you know, 2225 02:15:12,800 --> 02:15:14,640 Speaker 11: like you're not swimming across that river because you think 2226 02:15:14,640 --> 02:15:16,400 Speaker 11: you might get a PlayStation five when you get to 2227 02:15:16,400 --> 02:15:19,600 Speaker 11: the other side, Like it's fucking dangerous, and the journey 2228 02:15:19,640 --> 02:15:21,200 Speaker 11: to get there. People who tend to come across the 2229 02:15:21,240 --> 02:15:23,839 Speaker 11: land border to Texas sort of want to like micros 2230 02:15:23,840 --> 02:15:27,440 Speaker 11: ain't fucking stupid. They have access to all the same 2231 02:15:27,600 --> 02:15:30,360 Speaker 11: news and information that you do. They have smartphones that 2232 02:15:30,400 --> 02:15:31,880 Speaker 11: might be a little bit older, but they can still 2233 02:15:31,920 --> 02:15:35,280 Speaker 11: read shit and that they know that the ninth Circuit 2234 02:15:35,640 --> 02:15:37,880 Speaker 11: is kinder. So if they have the money, they will 2235 02:15:37,880 --> 02:15:42,040 Speaker 11: come to California. It's for some people end up in 2236 02:15:42,080 --> 02:15:44,120 Speaker 11: California without very much money. We've seen that lot with 2237 02:15:44,160 --> 02:15:46,880 Speaker 11: African migrants in Tichuina, But like a lot of the 2238 02:15:46,920 --> 02:15:49,200 Speaker 11: people going to Texas, it's because that's the land route 2239 02:15:49,240 --> 02:15:51,200 Speaker 11: walking north and they don't have the finances to go 2240 02:15:51,240 --> 02:15:56,840 Speaker 11: anywhere else. And those people are extremely like they're like 2241 02:15:57,080 --> 02:15:59,880 Speaker 11: there are any number of reasons why they they have 2242 02:16:00,120 --> 02:16:02,960 Speaker 11: legitimate right to asylum or just a right not to 2243 02:16:02,960 --> 02:16:05,880 Speaker 11: be fucking profiled, or like any other person of kind 2244 02:16:05,880 --> 02:16:08,720 Speaker 11: of living in Texas has a basic right note to 2245 02:16:08,720 --> 02:16:12,920 Speaker 11: be profiled, and demonizing those people is being used as 2246 02:16:12,920 --> 02:16:16,280 Speaker 11: a like a trojan horse just to do straight up 2247 02:16:16,520 --> 02:16:17,280 Speaker 11: racism law. 2248 02:16:18,680 --> 02:16:20,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, and then and meanwhile, like, you know, you have 2249 02:16:20,560 --> 02:16:22,760 Speaker 4: fucking Clarence Thomas, who is sitting there, who has gotten 2250 02:16:22,760 --> 02:16:25,480 Speaker 4: more kickbacks than every single one who's people who's crossed 2251 02:16:25,480 --> 02:16:29,120 Speaker 4: the border of their total wealth combined, is just sitting 2252 02:16:29,160 --> 02:16:31,160 Speaker 4: there being like, nah, fuck you, it's legal to throw 2253 02:16:31,200 --> 02:16:33,720 Speaker 4: these people into the chainsaw, Like it's fine. 2254 02:16:34,280 --> 02:16:37,920 Speaker 11: Yeah, exactly, Like, I don't really know how people maintain 2255 02:16:38,040 --> 02:16:40,600 Speaker 11: their faith in a system which holds this dude completely 2256 02:16:40,640 --> 02:16:45,320 Speaker 11: unaccountable for very obviously being bent like bent is in corrupt. 2257 02:16:45,720 --> 02:16:47,360 Speaker 11: I'm not using a homophobic slur. 2258 02:16:47,879 --> 02:16:50,440 Speaker 4: No, this is the way that's a homophobe. Yeah, I 2259 02:16:50,440 --> 02:16:53,680 Speaker 4: think it's really a British English British wild Yeah, I've 2260 02:16:53,680 --> 02:16:55,040 Speaker 4: never heard of either of those. 2261 02:16:55,400 --> 02:16:59,480 Speaker 11: I really. Okay, we're welcome to the podcast where I 2262 02:16:59,480 --> 02:17:02,000 Speaker 11: say British things and in leep some of them out. 2263 02:17:02,879 --> 02:17:05,359 Speaker 4: Do you know what else says British things and occasionally 2264 02:17:05,400 --> 02:17:06,520 Speaker 4: has some of them bleed it out. 2265 02:17:06,800 --> 02:17:09,800 Speaker 11: It's chump a Casino presented by Wangkas. 2266 02:17:21,360 --> 02:17:25,680 Speaker 4: And we're back from whatever insane gat We should at 2267 02:17:25,680 --> 02:17:28,880 Speaker 4: some point do an episode about the gambling law changes 2268 02:17:28,920 --> 02:17:30,240 Speaker 4: I'm sure that'll be fine. 2269 02:17:30,000 --> 02:17:33,160 Speaker 11: With yeah, go down, Well, it would be great. 2270 02:17:33,600 --> 02:17:36,600 Speaker 4: Oh boy, So we're there are some other so okay, 2271 02:17:36,600 --> 02:17:41,080 Speaker 4: So the Texas Senate before case is coming in sort 2272 02:17:41,080 --> 02:17:44,000 Speaker 4: of like mid late April, which is now this month, 2273 02:17:44,040 --> 02:17:48,440 Speaker 4: by the way, which is nuts great, say snipe. There 2274 02:17:48,440 --> 02:17:51,200 Speaker 4: are a couple of other cases coming down the pipeline 2275 02:17:51,200 --> 02:17:53,840 Speaker 4: that we wanted to talk about because so obviously the 2276 02:17:53,840 --> 02:17:58,440 Speaker 4: Streame court you know, has directly already done stuff with 2277 02:17:58,600 --> 02:18:00,680 Speaker 4: s before, but the law there's still still in the 2278 02:18:00,680 --> 02:18:04,879 Speaker 4: process for the lawsuit. There's also a case about methic pristone, 2279 02:18:04,959 --> 02:18:07,640 Speaker 4: which is an aborder factor, which is, you know, one 2280 02:18:07,640 --> 02:18:10,600 Speaker 4: of the ways that if you are if you're in 2281 02:18:10,640 --> 02:18:12,360 Speaker 4: a place where it is illegal for you to normally 2282 02:18:12,400 --> 02:18:14,600 Speaker 4: get an abortion, this is a way you can do it. 2283 02:18:15,320 --> 02:18:20,680 Speaker 4: So okay. The basis of this case is that in 2284 02:18:20,680 --> 02:18:23,920 Speaker 4: twenty sixteen twenty twenty one, the FDA did one of 2285 02:18:23,959 --> 02:18:25,840 Speaker 4: the few good things it's ever done, and there were 2286 02:18:25,840 --> 02:18:29,640 Speaker 4: some sort of changes to legal classifications around for pristone 2287 02:18:29,640 --> 02:18:33,160 Speaker 4: that allowed you to get it, not allowed you to 2288 02:18:33,160 --> 02:18:34,959 Speaker 4: get it without having to get it directly prescribed by 2289 02:18:34,959 --> 02:18:37,840 Speaker 4: a doctor. So you know, you could have nurs practitioners 2290 02:18:37,920 --> 02:18:39,640 Speaker 4: do it. And also it was a thing that didn't 2291 02:18:39,640 --> 02:18:42,240 Speaker 4: work like you can get it over the counter like 2292 02:18:42,440 --> 02:18:44,000 Speaker 4: it was. It was not a thing that suddenly that 2293 02:18:44,040 --> 02:18:47,600 Speaker 4: requires an enormous amount of sort of doctor bullshit. And 2294 02:18:47,800 --> 02:18:50,520 Speaker 4: it also used to require physical visits, so you'd have 2295 02:18:50,560 --> 02:18:53,600 Speaker 4: to go find a doctor in another state and get 2296 02:18:53,600 --> 02:18:55,240 Speaker 4: into private to you. And so that all went away. 2297 02:18:55,240 --> 02:18:58,640 Speaker 4: You're able to get it through telemedicine. And immediately basically 2298 02:18:58,680 --> 02:19:01,879 Speaker 4: after I get I guess probably the peak of the 2299 02:19:01,920 --> 02:19:05,560 Speaker 4: Republican counter revolution in the last four years, where they 2300 02:19:05,640 --> 02:19:09,680 Speaker 4: destroyed the National well, they destroyed the tatted remains of ROW, 2301 02:19:10,240 --> 02:19:14,240 Speaker 4: A bunch of like deranged right wing groups set about 2302 02:19:14,240 --> 02:19:18,600 Speaker 4: to get messapristomee bands and so basically what they're trying 2303 02:19:18,640 --> 02:19:22,520 Speaker 4: to do is overturn. They're trying to get its approval 2304 02:19:22,520 --> 02:19:24,840 Speaker 4: by the FDA overturn, and also the approval for the 2305 02:19:24,879 --> 02:19:29,120 Speaker 4: generic version of it overturned. Right, And this is the 2306 02:19:29,440 --> 02:19:34,280 Speaker 4: whole strategy here is very weird because okay, so this 2307 02:19:34,360 --> 02:19:36,400 Speaker 4: is one of the things about the US and part 2308 02:19:36,720 --> 02:19:39,039 Speaker 4: of the reason all of this court stuff is so 2309 02:19:39,200 --> 02:19:41,840 Speaker 4: weird because of the structure of the sort of regional 2310 02:19:41,840 --> 02:19:44,600 Speaker 4: autonomy of the courts. You can basically just do court shopping. 2311 02:19:44,959 --> 02:19:48,520 Speaker 4: You can go find some like guy who's basically a 2312 02:19:48,520 --> 02:19:51,920 Speaker 4: feudal baron in Texas and be like, hey, you hate abortion, 2313 02:19:52,200 --> 02:19:55,080 Speaker 4: Like here, write some piece of paper that says this 2314 02:19:55,120 --> 02:19:58,320 Speaker 4: is legal now. So there have been a series of 2315 02:19:58,400 --> 02:20:02,920 Speaker 4: sort of battles over different levels of courts, you know, 2316 02:20:03,080 --> 02:20:05,720 Speaker 4: like approving or disapproving some things. This is actually this 2317 02:20:05,760 --> 02:20:08,760 Speaker 4: is one of these cases that's actually so obviously it's 2318 02:20:08,920 --> 02:20:11,959 Speaker 4: the the immediate consequence here is if the Supreme Court 2319 02:20:11,959 --> 02:20:14,240 Speaker 4: decides that you can ban this, it's going to get really, 2320 02:20:14,240 --> 02:20:17,280 Speaker 4: really fucking bad for a lot of people. But this 2321 02:20:17,320 --> 02:20:19,360 Speaker 4: is also a case that feeds into another trend that's 2322 02:20:19,400 --> 02:20:23,400 Speaker 4: been happening, which is the Republicans attempting to use the 2323 02:20:23,400 --> 02:20:27,560 Speaker 4: court system to just completely annihilate the federal bureaucracy. Because 2324 02:20:27,600 --> 02:20:29,440 Speaker 4: the other thing that's at stake here and this is, 2325 02:20:29,520 --> 02:20:32,400 Speaker 4: you know, obviously the people's access to getting abortions is 2326 02:20:32,440 --> 02:20:35,280 Speaker 4: the most important part of it. The subsequent less important 2327 02:20:35,320 --> 02:20:37,760 Speaker 4: part of it is that right now there is a 2328 02:20:37,920 --> 02:20:42,320 Speaker 4: eight there are national standards for for prescriptions. Right there's 2329 02:20:42,400 --> 02:20:45,400 Speaker 4: unified nationals like the ADA is unified national standards for 2330 02:20:45,440 --> 02:20:49,280 Speaker 4: sort of food safety and like and if this gets 2331 02:20:49,360 --> 02:20:55,440 Speaker 4: knocked out, that's like gone. Yeah, and so suddenly large 2332 02:20:55,440 --> 02:20:57,920 Speaker 4: massive parts I mean like courts having the ability to 2333 02:20:58,000 --> 02:21:01,760 Speaker 4: just sort of go in and nuke FDA approvals for stuff, 2334 02:21:02,240 --> 02:21:05,120 Speaker 4: right states being able to like this is going to 2335 02:21:05,920 --> 02:21:09,200 Speaker 4: rip like tear, like like tearing the fucking guts out 2336 02:21:09,240 --> 02:21:13,280 Speaker 4: of the entire American sort of like legal bureaucracy. It's 2337 02:21:13,320 --> 02:21:16,440 Speaker 4: it's coming apart, Yeah, it's yeah. 2338 02:21:16,640 --> 02:21:20,320 Speaker 11: And and the the they're like the medical you know, 2339 02:21:20,840 --> 02:21:23,280 Speaker 11: your access to medicines that someone else doesn't want you 2340 02:21:23,320 --> 02:21:23,600 Speaker 11: to have. 2341 02:21:24,240 --> 02:21:26,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is one of these cases that has you know, 2342 02:21:26,120 --> 02:21:28,800 Speaker 4: there's there's sort of two elements at work here, right, 2343 02:21:28,920 --> 02:21:33,680 Speaker 4: there's there there's there's there's the there's the immediate like 2344 02:21:33,760 --> 02:21:35,840 Speaker 4: Republicans are trying to ban every single way you can 2345 02:21:35,879 --> 02:21:38,920 Speaker 4: possibly get an abortion to force people to have kids 2346 02:21:38,959 --> 02:21:40,440 Speaker 4: because this is you know, this is part of their 2347 02:21:40,440 --> 02:21:44,360 Speaker 4: sort of reactionary ideology. And then there's the other part 2348 02:21:44,400 --> 02:21:47,280 Speaker 4: of it, where there's been there's been a few other 2349 02:21:47,320 --> 02:21:49,879 Speaker 4: cases like this too. One of the one of the 2350 02:21:49,879 --> 02:21:52,640 Speaker 4: things that looks like they're trying to do is get 2351 02:21:53,120 --> 02:21:54,760 Speaker 4: we're gonna I'm gonna do a full upside about this 2352 02:21:54,760 --> 02:21:57,040 Speaker 4: at some point when I can get a good labor 2353 02:21:57,080 --> 02:21:59,840 Speaker 4: lawyer to talk about it. But they're trying to overturn 2354 02:21:59,879 --> 02:22:02,360 Speaker 4: the National Labor Relations Act, which is the act that 2355 02:22:02,400 --> 02:22:05,279 Speaker 4: basically sets up the right to unionization and the whole 2356 02:22:05,080 --> 02:22:10,880 Speaker 4: the whole process of how how labor mediation works. And 2357 02:22:10,959 --> 02:22:12,680 Speaker 4: I mean then there's other ones where I mean, like 2358 02:22:12,800 --> 02:22:18,520 Speaker 4: really substantively enormous parts of the American sort of the 2359 02:22:18,560 --> 02:22:22,560 Speaker 4: American state are just being torn apart in ways that 2360 02:22:22,600 --> 02:22:27,480 Speaker 4: are specifically designed to just allow corporations and these like 2361 02:22:27,560 --> 02:22:30,200 Speaker 4: fiefdom judges to have effectively unlimited political power. 2362 02:22:32,400 --> 02:22:35,520 Speaker 11: Yeah, I don't know, it's it's a fucking bleak, Like 2363 02:22:35,640 --> 02:22:40,840 Speaker 11: it's I mean, it's also predictable, right, Like it's kind 2364 02:22:40,840 --> 02:22:43,440 Speaker 11: of the nature of the state, and it's the nature 2365 02:22:43,480 --> 02:22:45,959 Speaker 11: of these people to want to take away Like the 2366 02:22:46,000 --> 02:22:50,080 Speaker 11: state ultimately is not there to protect you, It's there 2367 02:22:50,080 --> 02:22:53,200 Speaker 11: to protect capital. And like it's a failure of our 2368 02:22:53,320 --> 02:22:56,760 Speaker 11: organizing when we when we keep going back to the 2369 02:22:56,800 --> 02:22:58,920 Speaker 11: state and asking it to do something fundamentally has no 2370 02:22:58,959 --> 02:22:59,720 Speaker 11: interest in doing. 2371 02:23:00,360 --> 02:23:06,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, and this is really a substantive issue with you know, 2372 02:23:06,360 --> 02:23:08,720 Speaker 4: I remember this. This was the ACOU strategy under Trump. 2373 02:23:08,760 --> 02:23:09,960 Speaker 4: I've talked about this in the show before. It is 2374 02:23:09,959 --> 02:23:11,840 Speaker 4: the sho U strategy under Trump was to go to 2375 02:23:11,879 --> 02:23:13,320 Speaker 4: the courts and win there. And I mean this is 2376 02:23:13,360 --> 02:23:16,359 Speaker 4: this has been the sort of what the political strategy 2377 02:23:16,400 --> 02:23:19,760 Speaker 4: getting back to sort of the civil rights era. And 2378 02:23:20,200 --> 02:23:22,760 Speaker 4: that's it's you can't do this anymore because it doesn't 2379 02:23:22,800 --> 02:23:29,040 Speaker 4: It doesn't even like whether or not you are correct, 2380 02:23:29,080 --> 02:23:32,320 Speaker 4: like like legally correct about a thing right which used 2381 02:23:32,320 --> 02:23:34,080 Speaker 4: to be what this was just sort of hinged on 2382 02:23:34,520 --> 02:23:36,360 Speaker 4: and whether you could convince justice to this, like this 2383 02:23:36,400 --> 02:23:39,720 Speaker 4: doesn't matter anymore. Like they've you know, like if if 2384 02:23:39,720 --> 02:23:42,600 Speaker 4: you if you read the ruling on on like if 2385 02:23:42,600 --> 02:23:44,640 Speaker 4: you actually go through and read the ruling that overturned 2386 02:23:44,680 --> 02:23:47,440 Speaker 4: Rode Wade right, like the league, the legal logic in 2387 02:23:47,480 --> 02:23:50,760 Speaker 4: there is deranged. It's just like, yeah, we didn't have 2388 02:23:50,840 --> 02:23:54,720 Speaker 4: this X number of years ago, so fuck it, Like 2389 02:23:55,400 --> 02:23:57,600 Speaker 4: you can't do this now. It's like this is this 2390 02:23:57,640 --> 02:24:01,240 Speaker 4: is nonsense, but it doesn't matter because the the the 2391 02:24:01,280 --> 02:24:03,760 Speaker 4: actual weight of the law is not is not you know, 2392 02:24:03,800 --> 02:24:07,000 Speaker 4: a sort of like series of debates about like logic 2393 02:24:07,160 --> 02:24:09,280 Speaker 4: or about the efficacy or the meeting of text. It's 2394 02:24:09,360 --> 02:24:11,760 Speaker 4: just about who has the power to point guns at people? 2395 02:24:12,640 --> 02:24:16,760 Speaker 4: And the answer is you don't have that you, you, 2396 02:24:16,959 --> 02:24:20,040 Speaker 4: dear listener, do not have that power. Okay, do you 2397 02:24:20,040 --> 02:24:24,160 Speaker 4: know who else is going to destroy the American federal bureaucracy? Oh? 2398 02:24:24,440 --> 02:24:25,120 Speaker 11: Yes, yes I do. 2399 02:24:25,320 --> 02:24:25,640 Speaker 5: Mayeah. 2400 02:24:25,680 --> 02:24:27,959 Speaker 11: It's it's a production and services. It's pot this podcast, 2401 02:24:38,959 --> 02:24:40,760 Speaker 11: and we are back for more horrors. 2402 02:24:42,040 --> 02:24:44,240 Speaker 4: So we're going to talk about one more case, which 2403 02:24:44,280 --> 02:24:47,000 Speaker 4: is grap Pass versus Johnson, which is a case to 2404 02:24:47,240 --> 02:24:51,039 Speaker 4: decide whether or not you can make it illegal to 2405 02:24:51,040 --> 02:24:51,640 Speaker 4: be homeless. 2406 02:24:52,280 --> 02:24:54,760 Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, talking pointing guns at people. This one's This 2407 02:24:54,800 --> 02:24:57,640 Speaker 11: one's about pointing guns at homeless people, which is great, 2408 02:24:57,840 --> 02:25:01,320 Speaker 11: great and good. So this is one I've been following 2409 02:25:01,400 --> 02:25:05,480 Speaker 11: a little bit just because one thing that Todd Lauria 2410 02:25:05,640 --> 02:25:08,920 Speaker 11: loves to do is criminalize poverty. And I happen to, 2411 02:25:09,000 --> 02:25:12,279 Speaker 11: unfortunately live in a city of which he is mayor 2412 02:25:12,840 --> 02:25:16,560 Speaker 11: in San Diego. We have seen, like it's all the 2413 02:25:16,560 --> 02:25:19,600 Speaker 11: things they told your Republicans would do, our Democrat mayor 2414 02:25:19,680 --> 02:25:24,880 Speaker 11: is doing. And what the Grants passed usus Johnson case 2415 02:25:25,000 --> 02:25:26,760 Speaker 11: is about. It's a city of Grant's past, which I 2416 02:25:26,760 --> 02:25:30,000 Speaker 11: guess is a place in Oregon, and it's whether they 2417 02:25:30,040 --> 02:25:34,440 Speaker 11: can criminalize sleeping on the street if there are no 2418 02:25:34,560 --> 02:25:39,520 Speaker 11: safe shelter beds available. So that the idea here being 2419 02:25:39,560 --> 02:25:43,000 Speaker 11: that like again, like this is one has to understand 2420 02:25:43,000 --> 02:25:44,520 Speaker 11: that I'm speaking from the logic of the state when 2421 02:25:44,520 --> 02:25:47,800 Speaker 11: I try and explain this, like that, if there is 2422 02:25:47,840 --> 02:25:50,720 Speaker 11: a shelter bed to go to, they can compel you 2423 02:25:50,760 --> 02:25:55,400 Speaker 11: to go to it with threat of prosecution, right or criminalization. 2424 02:25:55,840 --> 02:25:57,520 Speaker 11: But if there is not a shelter bed to go to, 2425 02:25:57,680 --> 02:26:02,760 Speaker 11: then like you're not somehow your culpability changes, right, Like 2426 02:26:03,080 --> 02:26:05,560 Speaker 11: you're not refusing to take shelter there is no shelter 2427 02:26:05,640 --> 02:26:10,240 Speaker 11: few to take. And so Grant's past is obviously trying 2428 02:26:10,320 --> 02:26:14,280 Speaker 11: to criminalize people even when there are shelter beeds available. Now, 2429 02:26:14,320 --> 02:26:18,400 Speaker 11: what's interesting about Grant's pass is that not the place 2430 02:26:18,440 --> 02:26:20,800 Speaker 11: to the court case. What's interesting about the court case 2431 02:26:20,840 --> 02:26:23,880 Speaker 11: is that you'll see these big liberal cities filing amicus 2432 02:26:23,879 --> 02:26:28,080 Speaker 11: briefs amicus. It literally means it's from amicus curii friend 2433 02:26:28,080 --> 02:26:31,280 Speaker 11: of the court, right, which they can do in favor 2434 02:26:31,320 --> 02:26:36,200 Speaker 11: of either side. San Diego, Los Angeles, other large democratic cities, 2435 02:26:36,240 --> 02:26:40,760 Speaker 11: I'm sure all filing briefs in favor of criminalizing living 2436 02:26:40,800 --> 02:26:45,480 Speaker 11: on the street even when there are not shelter beds available. Now, 2437 02:26:45,840 --> 02:26:49,080 Speaker 11: if we look at the San Diego context specifically, one 2438 02:26:49,120 --> 02:26:50,680 Speaker 11: of the questions which will come up in this case 2439 02:26:50,760 --> 02:26:53,680 Speaker 11: is what is a shafe shelter bed? So what San 2440 02:26:53,760 --> 02:26:56,760 Speaker 11: Diego likes to do currently is put people into tents 2441 02:26:57,240 --> 02:27:02,080 Speaker 11: in parking lots where they often flood because because San 2442 02:27:02,120 --> 02:27:04,520 Speaker 11: Diego is not designed to deal with rain, and because 2443 02:27:04,879 --> 02:27:07,760 Speaker 11: our city has completely failed to clear out storm drains, 2444 02:27:07,800 --> 02:27:12,080 Speaker 11: resulting in people losing their homes in this winter, right, 2445 02:27:12,160 --> 02:27:15,160 Speaker 11: and so some of these parking lots flood where people 2446 02:27:15,200 --> 02:27:18,320 Speaker 11: have lived are forced to live. These tents are not like, 2447 02:27:19,040 --> 02:27:21,760 Speaker 11: they're not even good tents. Actually they managed to buy 2448 02:27:21,760 --> 02:27:24,640 Speaker 11: this is remarkable. Actually, if you were buying a tent there, 2449 02:27:25,280 --> 02:27:28,400 Speaker 11: can you think of any well, there's no way for 2450 02:27:28,400 --> 02:27:30,680 Speaker 11: me to phrase this. They bought fucking tents with slurs 2451 02:27:30,720 --> 02:27:33,199 Speaker 11: on the side. I don't know how you managed to do. Yeah, 2452 02:27:33,520 --> 02:27:38,959 Speaker 11: it's like the tents are quote Esquimo brand Jesus Christ. Yeah, 2453 02:27:39,120 --> 02:27:44,560 Speaker 11: it's it's it's it's incredible stuff. Like it's see, there 2454 02:27:44,600 --> 02:27:45,840 Speaker 11: was no way to be like, what would you be 2455 02:27:45,840 --> 02:27:48,080 Speaker 11: concerned about when buying a tent because a slur on 2456 02:27:48,120 --> 02:27:49,440 Speaker 11: the side would not have come up. 2457 02:27:49,480 --> 02:27:51,720 Speaker 4: I would not think about that. Why why would you? 2458 02:27:51,720 --> 02:27:54,359 Speaker 4: Why would there be slur? Why would there be slurs 2459 02:27:54,400 --> 02:27:56,680 Speaker 4: on the side of your tent? Yeah? Yeah, why were 2460 02:27:56,720 --> 02:27:57,320 Speaker 4: you doing here? 2461 02:27:58,120 --> 02:28:02,119 Speaker 13: How could you given the purchasing of the third largest 2462 02:28:02,120 --> 02:28:05,520 Speaker 13: city in California, somehow elects to purchase a tent, which 2463 02:28:05,560 --> 02:28:08,400 Speaker 13: is racist, Like, I don't know, but that's. 2464 02:28:08,240 --> 02:28:10,640 Speaker 11: Why I am not a member of the San Diego 2465 02:28:10,720 --> 02:28:13,360 Speaker 11: Democrat Party. So one of the things that will come 2466 02:28:13,400 --> 02:28:18,279 Speaker 11: up is what constitutes a safe shelter in practice. Again, 2467 02:28:18,920 --> 02:28:22,240 Speaker 11: this doesn't matter hugely other than it's a Supreme Court 2468 02:28:22,320 --> 02:28:27,560 Speaker 11: giving a nod to local governments to further criminalize being 2469 02:28:27,640 --> 02:28:31,560 Speaker 11: un housed, to drive unhouse people further from services, further 2470 02:28:31,600 --> 02:28:34,920 Speaker 11: from site. Right in San Diego's case, that means into canyons, 2471 02:28:34,959 --> 02:28:38,880 Speaker 11: into rivers, rivers, flood canyons, get extremely hot in the summer. 2472 02:28:39,040 --> 02:28:41,320 Speaker 11: More than one person every single day already dies on 2473 02:28:41,360 --> 02:28:44,880 Speaker 11: our streets here in an extremely wealthy and prosperous area 2474 02:28:44,920 --> 02:28:47,600 Speaker 11: of the world. This will make it worse because they 2475 02:28:47,640 --> 02:28:50,920 Speaker 11: will get that nod to continue criminalizing people rather than trying. 2476 02:28:50,640 --> 02:28:51,240 Speaker 1: To help them. 2477 02:28:51,600 --> 02:28:55,280 Speaker 11: In practice, what cities will do, including San Diego, is 2478 02:28:55,320 --> 02:28:57,760 Speaker 11: just hold back a few shelter beds to allow them 2479 02:28:57,760 --> 02:29:01,680 Speaker 11: to cite anyone. Right it practice, they're still going to 2480 02:29:01,720 --> 02:29:04,480 Speaker 11: cite people even if the demand for beds is much 2481 02:29:04,560 --> 02:29:08,360 Speaker 11: higher than the provision of beds. So like, in that case, 2482 02:29:08,560 --> 02:29:11,560 Speaker 11: they will still continue to find it's not a workaround. 2483 02:29:11,640 --> 02:29:13,600 Speaker 11: But they think it is right that they can just 2484 02:29:13,680 --> 02:29:17,760 Speaker 11: criminalize being in house in this fashion. But it it does, 2485 02:29:17,840 --> 02:29:20,920 Speaker 11: it represents like a nod from the top down right 2486 02:29:21,120 --> 02:29:24,040 Speaker 11: to go even harder after people who are too poor 2487 02:29:24,080 --> 02:29:26,840 Speaker 11: to make rent at a time when rent is less 2488 02:29:26,840 --> 02:29:30,080 Speaker 11: affordable than it has been in generations. And so like 2489 02:29:30,560 --> 02:29:33,880 Speaker 11: it's one to watch. It's one where like yet again 2490 02:29:33,959 --> 02:29:36,960 Speaker 11: you find like the Democrats, I guess, lining up on 2491 02:29:37,240 --> 02:29:40,160 Speaker 11: the right hand side of the issue, the right wing 2492 02:29:40,240 --> 02:29:43,400 Speaker 11: side of the issue, the state violence side of the issue. Right, 2493 02:29:43,800 --> 02:29:46,800 Speaker 11: and it will I'm sure open up the door to 2494 02:29:46,879 --> 02:29:49,560 Speaker 11: more what they call camping bands, which is the euphemism 2495 02:29:49,600 --> 02:29:53,760 Speaker 11: again they are bands on being un housed within city limits, right, 2496 02:29:53,840 --> 02:29:57,360 Speaker 11: And I think it's one to keep an eye on. 2497 02:29:57,360 --> 02:30:01,640 Speaker 11: But again, like I don't it's Clarence Thomas the guy 2498 02:30:01,640 --> 02:30:04,040 Speaker 11: who goes to the billionaire's house with the racist statues 2499 02:30:04,080 --> 02:30:06,920 Speaker 11: and the Nazi statues, Like, he's not the guy who's 2500 02:30:06,959 --> 02:30:09,400 Speaker 11: going to come in swinging for the person who has 2501 02:30:09,440 --> 02:30:11,720 Speaker 11: to sleep under the underpass because they can't make rent, 2502 02:30:11,800 --> 02:30:12,360 Speaker 11: you know, like. 2503 02:30:12,879 --> 02:30:14,879 Speaker 4: And like like if if you think the fucking liberal 2504 02:30:15,000 --> 02:30:17,400 Speaker 4: justices are going to give a shit either, like these 2505 02:30:17,440 --> 02:30:20,400 Speaker 4: are these are the people whose fundamental political principles that 2506 02:30:20,440 --> 02:30:22,920 Speaker 4: the police have the right to. Like, Okay, there is 2507 02:30:22,959 --> 02:30:25,000 Speaker 4: a decision that I can't remember the fucking name of 2508 02:30:25,480 --> 02:30:27,280 Speaker 4: that was a it was it was, it was, it was. 2509 02:30:27,440 --> 02:30:29,760 Speaker 4: It should have been a very very basic you are 2510 02:30:29,840 --> 02:30:33,280 Speaker 4: guaranteed due process thing right under the Fourth Amendments and this, 2511 02:30:33,600 --> 02:30:36,760 Speaker 4: and in a nine to o decision, the Supreme Court 2512 02:30:36,879 --> 02:30:40,440 Speaker 4: ruled that the cops are allowed to violate people's due 2513 02:30:40,480 --> 02:30:43,480 Speaker 4: process because if they didn't do this, there couldn't be 2514 02:30:43,520 --> 02:30:45,959 Speaker 4: a functional police force in this country because this is 2515 02:30:45,959 --> 02:30:48,080 Speaker 4: how the police were doing all their fucking work. So 2516 02:30:48,320 --> 02:30:52,240 Speaker 4: if you think those people right, that was nine oh 2517 02:30:52,560 --> 02:30:55,680 Speaker 4: nine zero decision, that was that was a fucking Ruth 2518 02:30:55,720 --> 02:31:02,040 Speaker 4: Bader Ginsburg special, Right, those people are going to be like, 2519 02:31:02,120 --> 02:31:05,640 Speaker 4: oh hey, damn, maybe people who don't own property, have rights? 2520 02:31:06,440 --> 02:31:07,840 Speaker 4: Like how no? 2521 02:31:08,560 --> 02:31:11,560 Speaker 11: Like yeah, no, Like, Look, when faced with a choice 2522 02:31:11,600 --> 02:31:14,879 Speaker 11: between like liberty and then then the necessity of maintaining 2523 02:31:14,879 --> 02:31:17,240 Speaker 11: a state's capacity to do violence to anyone at any time, 2524 02:31:17,240 --> 02:31:21,360 Speaker 11: they chose the latter right. And I guess, like, if 2525 02:31:21,400 --> 02:31:23,000 Speaker 11: I can get on my soap box for a minute, like, 2526 02:31:23,280 --> 02:31:25,440 Speaker 11: you need to stop expecting these people to come and 2527 02:31:25,440 --> 02:31:28,879 Speaker 11: save you, like specifically with reference to the fucking Grants 2528 02:31:28,920 --> 02:31:31,520 Speaker 11: past case, Like the person who is going to stop 2529 02:31:31,520 --> 02:31:35,119 Speaker 11: your unhoused neighbor dying is you. It's not an NGO, 2530 02:31:35,400 --> 02:31:38,280 Speaker 11: it's not the city, it's not the county, it's not 2531 02:31:38,360 --> 02:31:41,720 Speaker 11: the feds. Those people fundamentally that they're the incentive is 2532 02:31:41,760 --> 02:31:44,520 Speaker 11: not for them to care. Like your incentive, as a 2533 02:31:44,560 --> 02:31:46,960 Speaker 11: person who shares humanity with that person is to care 2534 02:31:47,040 --> 02:31:51,360 Speaker 11: and to do something. And like, yeah, I guess, like, 2535 02:31:51,720 --> 02:31:53,760 Speaker 11: don't wait, take the time you would have spent reading 2536 02:31:53,760 --> 02:31:56,040 Speaker 11: about a fucking Supreme Court case and make sandwiches and 2537 02:31:56,080 --> 02:31:58,280 Speaker 11: go hand them out, because that is the only way 2538 02:31:58,320 --> 02:31:58,879 Speaker 11: we solve this. 2539 02:32:00,000 --> 02:32:01,600 Speaker 4: I think that's as good a place as I need 2540 02:32:01,640 --> 02:32:04,040 Speaker 4: to stop. Yeah, this has been making up here. 2541 02:32:07,680 --> 02:32:10,840 Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 2542 02:32:10,920 --> 02:32:12,840 Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe. 2543 02:32:13,400 --> 02:32:15,920 Speaker 5: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 2544 02:32:16,000 --> 02:32:20,240 Speaker 8: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia. 2545 02:32:19,520 --> 02:32:21,840 Speaker 3: Dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 2546 02:32:21,840 --> 02:32:25,040 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 2547 02:32:25,080 --> 02:32:27,720 Speaker 3: find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at 2548 02:32:27,800 --> 02:32:30,080 Speaker 3: coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. 2549 02:32:30,200 --> 02:32:31,039 Speaker 5: Thanks for listening.