1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World, how does the most 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: powerful man or woman in the world, the President of 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: the United States, depend on Chief Executive Officers. CEOs provide 4 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: assistance in the form of personnel, policy insights, and campaign cash, 5 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: but they also become essential foils for presidents, serving as 6 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: both allies and convenient enemies. In his new book The 7 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: Power and the Money, the epic Clashes between Commanders in 8 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: Chief and Titans of Industry, Tevy Troy reveals an intricate 9 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: web of power where CEOs need presidents and presidents need CEOs. 10 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: Troy shows how each must step carefully or risk unpredictable 11 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: costs and collateral damage. I am really pleased to welcome 12 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: my guests, Tevy Troy. He is a best selling presidential historian, 13 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: former White House Aid Deputy Secretary of Health. Doctor Troy 14 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: is a Senior Fellow at the Bipartisan Policy Center, Senior 15 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: scholar at Yeshiva University Strauss Center, and a visiting fellow 16 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: at the Mercada Center. Tvy, welcome and thank you for 17 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 1: joining me on News World. 18 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 2: Well, miss speaker, I have to say thank you because 19 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 2: you were an inspiration to me at a very young age. 20 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 2: I got a PhD in the early nineteen nineties, inspired 21 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 2: by people like you and Bill Crystal and Ralph Reid 22 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,199 Speaker 2: and Frank Lunz who had PhDs and were really making 23 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 2: a difference in Washington, and I thought that would be 24 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 2: the degree to get because of your example and your model. 25 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 3: Thank you. 26 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: Well, when you look back, was that the right decision 27 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: for you? 28 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 3: Oh? Absolutely? 29 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 2: I got a PhD knowing that I would never have 30 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 2: an opportunity to teach, or at least for the most 31 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 2: of my career. I'm now teaching at Yeshiva University. But 32 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: I knew I could make it in Washington because of 33 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 2: what you guys had done, and you kind of blaze 34 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 2: the path. So yeah, I'm glad I got the degree. 35 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: Well, I must say I think having more people who 36 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: have actually studied and learned things would probably be useful 37 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: in government. We have a lot of people who know 38 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: how to win campaigns with they don't necessarily know how 39 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: to solve problems. What led you to this book? It's fascinating, 40 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: but why did you decide to write it? 41 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 3: Well? Thank you. 42 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: I've written now five books on presidential history. This is 43 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,399 Speaker 2: my fifth one, and in everyone, I've written about presidents 44 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 2: and blank, and the blank is something that nobody has 45 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 2: covered before and something that speaks to our current moment. So, 46 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 2: for example, in twenty twenty, I wrote flight House about 47 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 2: infighting in the White House because everyone was talking about 48 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 2: infighting in the Trump White House. So I went to 49 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: look and see if it had happened before, and obviously 50 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,839 Speaker 2: it had. And with this book, everyone's talking about CEOs 51 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: big tech companies. Both Democrats and Republicans seem to dislike business, 52 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: which wasn't always the case, and I want them to 53 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 2: see if there's a way I could use my presidential 54 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: knowledge and my expertise in presidential history to bring that 55 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 2: lens to examine this current moment in why we are 56 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 2: in the current state we are with relation to big 57 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 2: business and big government. 58 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: That's interesting. Were you surprised by what you found? 59 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 2: They were constant surprised. I mean, that's why you like 60 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 2: to go to the archives. That's why you do the research. 61 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 3: You know. 62 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 2: Robert Carrow famously says, turn every page, and the more 63 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 2: you turn, the more you uncover. I mean, I found 64 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 2: this one story that just shocked me that in eighteen 65 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 2: eighty James A. Garfield, who actually think is underrated figure 66 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,239 Speaker 2: in American history. He's running for president, He's obviously looking 67 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: for campaign cash, which they always do, and he asks 68 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 2: his political advisor, guy named Amos Townshend, about this fellow 69 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 2: named rock aff Feller. He doesn't even know how to 70 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 2: pronounce Rockefeller's name or how to spell it, and he 71 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 2: asked if he should go to this guy for money, 72 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 2: and Townsend warns him that the name Rockefeller cuts like 73 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: a knife in Pennsylvania and that he should tread lightly 74 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 2: and stay away from him. And I just thought that 75 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 2: was such a perfect encapsulation of what the relationship between 76 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: presidents and CEOs. They want the money, they want the 77 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 2: power that comes from the CEOs, but they've got to 78 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 2: be real careful because they're politically unpopular. 79 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: And has that been true off through the whole of 80 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: American history, that the people who acquire money and power 81 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: were enough of a populist culture. Did that inherently makes 82 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: them untrustworthy? 83 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 2: I would say yes, but it's always a strain in 84 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 2: American life. But then sometimes you have these CEOs like 85 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: Leiahkoca who become iconic figures. Leiah Coca is the number 86 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 2: one best selling book in America in nineteen eighty four 87 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 2: and nineteen eighty five. I don't know anybody who's ever 88 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 2: done that two straight years, and so he becomes a 89 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 2: massive figure and an admired figure in American life. So 90 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 2: sometimes you have these CEOs who get admired, but others 91 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 2: you have them in the crosshairs of politicians. 92 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: I mean, pick eighteen CEOs and the president that they 93 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: should interact to with. How did you go about picking 94 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: who you were going to write about? 95 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 2: Every one of these CEOs had to interact with multiple 96 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 2: presidents otherwise they wouldn't fit the model of the book. 97 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 2: And what I did was I put together a bunch 98 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 2: of index cards that my daughter helped me write. She graphically 99 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: designed them and had the CEO so the industry they 100 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 2: worked in, the company they worked for, the years in 101 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 2: which they were in power, and the presidents they interacted with. 102 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 2: And I mixed and matched these index cards and I 103 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 2: put them on the floor, kind of like when you 104 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 2: were playing with baseball cards as a kid, until I 105 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 2: found the right mix of people who represented iconic American industries, 106 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: had great stories of interacting with presidents and could help 107 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: me tell the story of the development of big business 108 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 2: and big government over the laste hundred and fifty years. 109 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of these guys, particularly if they 110 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: say found their own comedy. Rockefeller would be an example. 111 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: Are Elon Musk today. They can be around for four 112 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: or five or six presidents. 113 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 2: Jack Welch ten presidents. I think he's the record in 114 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 2: my book, he interacted with the most presidents. But yeah, Rockefeller, 115 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 2: he didn't really want to deal with them directly. But 116 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 2: let's say from McKinley all the way through Franklin Roosevelt 117 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 2: to some degree because he's trying to help the US 118 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 2: get through the Great Depression. So yeah, these CEOs span 119 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: a long period, and that's why I think they're interesting. 120 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 2: The presidents have more power while they are in office, 121 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 2: but these CEOs have more influence. 122 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 3: It's because of their longer tenures. 123 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: Are they all sort of similar or the eighteen people 124 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: you picked? Are there significant differences? Oh? 125 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 2: I mean these people are massively different. In fact, in 126 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: one of my appendices, I talk about the different models 127 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 2: they use. And that's why I wanted to write the book, 128 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 2: is to show the different models of CEO engagement. Some 129 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 2: of them wanted to deal with Washington. Someone wanted nothing 130 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 2: to do with Washington, but Washington came after them. Some 131 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: like Steve Jobs, managed to skate free and stay away 132 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 2: from Washington for most of their careers. So yeah, these 133 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 2: are people with different approaches, different success stories, but they 134 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 2: all had big egos and a lot of drive and 135 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,799 Speaker 2: an ability to go forward and make something in themselves 136 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 2: in this great country that gives people so much opportunity. 137 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: In that context, is it the presidents who tend to 138 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: approach the CEO or the CEO who tends to approach 139 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: the president? 140 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 2: I would say I found both. I mean, sometimes you 141 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: have someone like Lou Washerman, who I found really interesting, 142 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 2: who wants to stay away from government, and then when 143 00:06:55,480 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 2: Bobby Kennedy's Justice Department starts investigating him and his Businessesserman 144 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 2: realizes he has to engage in Washington, and he first 145 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 2: approaches John F. 146 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 3: Kennedy. 147 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 2: Kennedy's obviously assassinated tragically, but then he becomes very close 148 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: friends with Lyndon Johnson, raises a lot of money for him, 149 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 2: and actually starts the pipeline of Hollywood cash going to 150 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 2: Democratic presidents. It wasn't really such a big deal before Washerman. 151 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 2: So yeah, a lot of times these guys approach the president, 152 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 2: but sometimes the president comes to them as well. 153 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: There are also moments that you point out when the 154 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: CEOs have the power to actually dramatically affect America's future 155 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: in ways that presidents need them. 156 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: So I tell some stories there of CEOs really stepped 157 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 2: up to help the country in times of need. Think 158 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 2: of JP Morgan, who is none too popular among presidents 159 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 2: or politicians in general, who in eighteen ninety five comes 160 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 2: to Washington to help come up with a plan to 161 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 2: solve the liquidity crisis that the US government has. And 162 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 2: then in nineteen oh seven Teddy Roosevelt's not a fan 163 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: of Morgan either, but Morgan again comes to Washington to 164 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 2: come up with a plan to help in the panic 165 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 2: of nineteen oh seven. Henry Ford doesn't like Franklin Roosevelt much, 166 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 2: but he builds the largest armaments plan it will o 167 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 2: run that helps the US supply the planes it needs 168 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 2: for the fights in World War Two. So I think 169 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 2: that a lot of these CEOs have stepped up in 170 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 2: important ways to help the country in times of need. 171 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: One of the most interesting is the degree to which 172 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt is really a reformer who takes on business. 173 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: You think he's a Republican, but he's really kind of 174 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: the aggressive reform wing of that generation's Republican party, doesn't 175 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: he tackle both the coal mine owners at one point 176 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 1: and then later comes back and really wants to look 177 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: at the whole issue of monopolies in a very aggressive way. 178 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: For what you would have thought of as a Republican politician, 179 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: how did you, on your own mind come to grips 180 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: with Teddy Roosevelt. 181 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 2: Well, I'm a bit of an anomaly among Republicans because 182 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 2: I'm not a huge Teddy Roosevelt fan, not just because 183 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 2: of the progressive reformer stuff, but because of the way 184 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 2: he dealt with William Howard Taft. Obviously at Taft is 185 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 2: his best friend, they walk to work together all the time. 186 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 2: And then Roosevelt makes Taft become president after him becomes 187 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 2: a successor, even though Taff just wants to be Supreme 188 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: Court justice and actually Chief Justice, which he eventually attained. 189 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 2: So then Taff becomes president at Roosevelt's urging. Roosevelt doesn't 190 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 2: like what Taft does as president, and then in nineteen twelve, 191 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 2: Roosevelt runs against him loses in the convention, so he 192 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 2: doesn't get the Republic denomination and then runs a third 193 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 2: party against him, which guarantees that we got Woodrow Wilson, 194 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 2: who is a terrible president by my light. So I 195 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 2: really don't like the way Roosevelt approach things, but I 196 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: think he was also quite harsh on some of these 197 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 2: business leaders. He goes after Rockefeller and targets him after 198 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 2: Rockefeller is retired from the company, but he makes Rockefeller 199 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 2: be faced the target of his assault on Standard Oil, 200 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 2: which is eventually successful and gets the company broken up. 201 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: As you point out when Roosevelt splits with Taffed for 202 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: really the only time between the Civil War and Franklin 203 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: Dona Roosevelt, the Democrats have real power on the left. 204 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: I mean Grover Cleveland was a very conservative Democrat. Well, 205 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: Wilson is actually not just a college professor in the 206 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: classic sense, but he is an elitist, big government, almost 207 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: a totalitarian. In World War One. Were there business leaders 208 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: who worked with him. 209 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 2: Well, I talk in the book about Henry Ford, who 210 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 2: goes to see Wilson in the White House to try 211 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: and convince Wilson not to enter World War One. Ford 212 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 2: was a big pacifist, and Ford tries to charm Wilson 213 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 2: by telling him Henry Ford jokes, which were a thing 214 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: at the time, but Wilson doesn't want to hear much 215 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 2: of it, and eventually has Ford escorted from the White House. 216 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 2: And then Ford goes to New York and he goes 217 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 2: on something called the Peace Ship, which is a ship 218 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 2: that Ford funded of a bunch of liberal peace activists, 219 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 2: and they think they're going to solve the intractable problems 220 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 2: of World War One. It's a debacle, and even Ford's 221 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 2: wife tells him to get off the ship because it's 222 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 2: such a failure. 223 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: Huh. Were there any major business types who Wilson was 224 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: able to work with. 225 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 3: Not that I came up with in my book. 226 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 2: He was kind of an unpopular guy with business, and 227 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 2: you know, unpopular in my mind for many of the 228 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 2: reasons that you say, mister speaker, including he resegregated the 229 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 2: federal government. I mean, Wilson was just a bad guy 230 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 2: on many levels. And I like him even less than 231 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 2: Teddy Roosevelt. 232 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: And you have with Wilson somebody who really sort of 233 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: wants to run everything. I mean, it's amazing how petty 234 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: and how much power Wilson acumminated. Of course, for a 235 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:54,959 Speaker 1: long time liberals loved him, and I think it's only 236 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: a recent time that had come to grips with He 237 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: was a segregationist. The Post Office took over the telephone 238 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: company and ran it so badly that they sort of 239 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: vaccinated the country against governent ownership for a generation because 240 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: it was such a total disaster and they had to 241 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 1: release it. 242 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally agree with you on Wilson. He was 243 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 2: a bad president and a bad guy. I'm not an 244 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: all fan, and I think only the fact that he 245 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 2: has a D after his name is what salvaged his 246 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 2: reputation for a number of generations until recently when people 247 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 2: have woken up to how bad he is. 248 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: One key figure who's in the Wilson administration and then 249 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,959 Speaker 1: goes on to be the vice presidential nominee in nineteen 250 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 1: twenty the Democrats lose, he ends up with polio in 251 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty three, amazingly, as an act of share, Will 252 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: becomes governor. Then president is Frank CONDONA Roosevelt. What was 253 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 1: FDR's relationship like with big business and with CEOs? 254 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, for the most part, big name CEOs don't 255 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 2: like Roosevelt. He's very anti business. He's critical of business. 256 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 2: You know, he even has anti business surrogates on the 257 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 2: campaign trail, including Harold Ikeys, who is the father of 258 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 2: the Harold Ikeys who was a dirty tricks player in 259 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 2: the Clinton White House. And so Roosevelt has poor relations 260 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 2: with business, especially with Henry Luce, who is the founder 261 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 2: and editor and publisher of Time magazine, who is constantly 262 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 2: critical of Roosevelt. Also, Henry Ford doesn't like Roosevelt much. 263 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 2: But Roosevelt does have some businessmen who like him, and 264 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 2: that's usually in Hollywood. Jack and Harry Warner are big 265 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 2: Roosevelt fans, and they actually use Warner Brothers Studios for 266 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 2: basically pro Roosevelt propaganda both leading up to World War 267 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 2: Two and also during the Great Depression. So Roosevelt does 268 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 2: have some business allies, but generally he's pretty unpopular with business. 269 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,839 Speaker 1: I was just looking at some of your titles. He wrote, 270 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: shall we Wake the President? Two Centuries of Disaster Management 271 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: from the Oval Office. He wrote what Jefferson Red Mike 272 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: watched and Obama tweeted? Two hundred years of Popular Culture 273 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: in the White House. Then you wrote Intellectuals in the 274 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: American Presidency, Philosophers gestures or technicians, and then you wrote 275 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: rivals is in the White House from Truman to Trump. 276 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: Mean you have really spent your career immersed in trying 277 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: to understand the presidency and the White House as an institution. 278 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 3: That's absolutely right. 279 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 2: And I also had the added pleasure and honor of 280 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 2: working in the White House in the George W. 281 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 3: Bush years. 282 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 2: So I'm one of the rare people who understands the 283 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 2: White House and the Presidency from both an academic perspective 284 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 2: but also as a practitioner from having worked there. 285 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: How were your eyes opened? Are your opinions changed by 286 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: the fact of being in the White House. 287 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 3: Yeah? 288 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: So when I got my phdat University of Texas, I 289 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 2: would go to the archives and I would see these 290 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 2: memos written by let's say Pat moynihan, and they were 291 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 2: marked up in the margins by Richard Nixon. I was 292 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: just amazed at this. So I got a sense of 293 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 2: how people could influence presidents, what kind of memos would 294 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: appeal to presidents, what the policy process was like. And 295 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 2: so I thought it gave me a leg up when 296 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 2: I came to the White House. And then when I 297 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 2: got the actual experience in the White ho else. I've 298 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: written four of my books since then, and I think 299 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 2: I have a better understanding of the process, what the 300 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 2: different roles are. I mean, I didn't know what special 301 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 2: assistant to the President meant when I was reading memos 302 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 2: from Arthur Schlessinger to Kennedy. But after having worked in 303 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 2: the White House, I understand what the different positions are, 304 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 2: what they mean, and what kind of power they have. 305 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: From that standpoint, do you see presidents shaped more by 306 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: their internal staff than their external contacts? 307 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 2: For the most part, yes, internal staff. The presidents are 308 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 2: in a bubble. Trump seems to be a bit of 309 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 2: an exception. I mean, he would use his cell phone 310 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 2: to talk to a wide variety of people that the 311 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 2: staff couldn't control. Reagan also, they tried to keep outside 312 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 2: influences away from him, and they tried to hide his 313 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 2: copies of human events, for example. 314 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 3: But George W. Bush was different. 315 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: He actually sent an email to all his friends before 316 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 2: he becomes president saying, I'm not going to be able 317 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 2: to be in touch with you as president, in part 318 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 2: because I don't want you subject to feuer requests. 319 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 3: Down the road. 320 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: So some presidents kind of force themselves in the bubble. 321 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 2: And others try and break out of it. 322 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: When you look at these relationships, how many of the 323 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: presidents had an actual personal relationship with CEOs as opposed 324 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: to just a professional relationship. 325 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 2: Well, I think there's a number of them who have 326 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 2: close relationships. Lou Washerman, for example, have really close relationships 327 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 2: with Linda Johnson. And in one instance, he's leaving Johnson's 328 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 2: bedroom at two or three in the morning, he runs 329 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 2: into Lady Bird Johnson and he apologizes for keeping the 330 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 2: president up, and Ladybird says to him, don't apologize. He 331 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 2: loves this. He lives for his conversations with you. Because 332 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 2: there's this factor that you'll understand, mister speaker, about the 333 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 2: loneliness of leadership. When you're at the top, you don't 334 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 2: have any real peers. Everybody is subordinate to you and 335 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 2: in some ways gutting for you to a degree, and 336 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 2: you don't have people who you can really relate to. 337 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 2: But these big name CEOs they can relate to the 338 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 2: presidents because they're both at the top of their fields. 339 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 2: They're not necessarily in competition with one another, and allows 340 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 2: them to have honest, meaningful conversations. 341 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: When I was speaker and we made the decision that 342 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: we would balance the federal budget, which was totally evolitional 343 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: because the House had passed to balance budget amendment, which 344 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: we committed to in the contract, and the Senate came 345 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: within one vote but failed. So we were sitting here. 346 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: We'd done what we said we would, but it hit 347 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 1: us that we I think we had three hundred and 348 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: five votes in the House and sixty six in the 349 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: Senate for a balanced budget amendment. So we had dinner 350 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: one night with our leadership and said, what if we 351 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: pretend it passed. We'd committed to balancing the budget and 352 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 1: seven years if it passed, And so we literally talked 353 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: a couple hours and decided collectively, we're going to balance 354 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: the budget. We're just going to behave as though we 355 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: passed amendment. Well. As part of that process, we got 356 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: the Roundtable to bring in CEOs. I was particularly intrigued 357 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: with this particular book of yours because I knew what 358 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: it meant to us. And every Wednesday night we would 359 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: have a dinner in the House with about ten to 360 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: fifteen CEOs that had been brought together by the Roundtable. 361 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: Have it explained to him that the size of change 362 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: we needed was about the same as the total budget 363 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: of General Motors, which at that time was the biggest company, 364 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: and that this was a very big effort, that we're 365 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: very serious about it, but how would you approach it? 366 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: And week after week after week, the CEOs collectively gave 367 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 1: us the same three pieces of advice. They said, First, 368 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: you have to set very big goals with very short 369 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: time horizons. Second, you have to delegate like crazy. This 370 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: is too big for any small group to do. And third, 371 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 1: you can't allow any experts in the room because they'll 372 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: tell you what you can't. We would take notes and 373 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: it was amazing, and that was the model, and of course, 374 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: as you know, we balanced the budget for four three years. 375 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: In that sense, those CEOs had a huge impact because 376 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: I don't know that we would have figured that out 377 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: on our own, but because they've been running companies and 378 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: they've been making big decisions and they'd been forced to 379 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: figure out how to succeed, they could give us a 380 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: kind of contact with reality and a sense of experience 381 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: that was really really important. 382 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, then they know how to manage large systems. It 383 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 2: kind of reminds me of what Jared Kushner used to 384 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,479 Speaker 2: say when he was in the Trump White House and 385 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 2: people would say, well, we can't do this, We've tried 386 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 2: it already. He would say, I'm not burdened by your experience. 387 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: That's the way DARPA works, the Defensive Events Research Projects Agency. 388 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: You only go in there for like three or four 389 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: years and then you leave. And part of their reasoning 390 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 1: is they don't want the next wave to know what 391 00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: you can't do right. Technology changes, science changes, and maybe 392 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 1: something that didn't work eight years ago might work now. 393 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: But if you're burdened by the knowledge it didn't work, 394 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 1: you might not try it. I think that's a key 395 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: part of it. When you look at all this, What 396 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: do you wish the American people understood about the presidency? 397 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 2: I think when I first came to the White House, 398 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 2: I was told by a kind of White House veteran saying, 399 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 2: the president really only does two things. They do public events, 400 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 2: meaning they get their word out, their message out somehow, 401 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 2: or they make decisions. They decide on policy questions. And 402 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 2: people think that the president's going to go solve the 403 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 2: issue of a hurricane or they're going to single handedly 404 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 2: when it work. 405 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 3: They don't do that. 406 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 2: Their leverage is their ability to communicate with the American 407 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 2: people and their ability to make decisions that send government 408 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: in a certain direction. So they're not really superhuman people 409 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 2: who can just snap their finger and make something happen. 410 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 2: They can move the battleship of America in a certain direction, 411 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:55,479 Speaker 2: but it doesn't go quickly. 412 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 1: You remember the Truman line that Eisenhower of thinking that 413 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 1: it was like the army, and he would discover that 414 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 1: you could make all sorts of decisions in the Oval Office, 415 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 1: but trying to actually get them implemented was really really hard. 416 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I do remember that, but I also know that 417 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,199 Speaker 2: Truman left with very low approval ratings and Eisenhower had 418 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 2: an incredibly successful presidency of economic prosperity and no wars. 419 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: Eisenhower had run a fairly large bureaucratic structure called the 420 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: Allied Forces in Europe. He'd had some experience with really 421 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: big decisions and really big organizations. 422 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 2: Right, So I am a fan of Truman, but I 423 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 2: think he gave Eisenhower a short shrift in that instance. 424 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: Well, I think he was irritated by as Now because 425 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: they tried to recruit him as a Democrat and he 426 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: would in come and he leaves a Kansas Republican at heart. 427 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 2: He would have won if he'd run as a Democrat. 428 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 2: He would have run if he'd run as a Republican. Actually, 429 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 2: remind me of a great story of George H. W. 430 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 2: Bush used to play tennis with his mother, Doro, and 431 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 2: she was a great tennis player, and she would play 432 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 2: her son George and beat him with her right hand. 433 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 2: And then after she beat him, she'd switched to her 434 00:21:58,720 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 2: left hand and beat him again. 435 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: Ha ha. That may say a great deal about that relationship. 436 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it does. 437 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: I know in the case of FDR, I'm convinced that 438 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: he was so good at hiding who he was because 439 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: of his mother, that she was so dominating that by 440 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 1: the time he was six or seven, he figured out 441 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: that there would be an inner FDR, and there'd be 442 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: the image he gave his mom, because otherwise she was 443 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: just totally controlling, and as a result, a little bit 444 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: like Reagan, you couldn't quite ever fully know FDR. 445 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 2: Great description of him as a chameleon on plaid. 446 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. Ben Roosevelt was pretty good at smiling, 447 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 1: cheerfully and living out whichever part of the chamillion he 448 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: had to be, which is amazing. So what is your 449 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: next book going to be? 450 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 2: I write books about presidents and blank, and the blank 451 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 2: is something that nobody's done before, and it speaks to 452 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 2: our carent moment. So I don't know what our card 453 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 2: moment is going to be in four or five years. 454 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 2: I actually have this theory that you can't write books 455 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 2: too frequently. My mentor was a guy named Ben Wattenberg, 456 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 2: and Wainberg once was talking about a college of ours 457 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 2: who would write books every year and complain that he 458 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 2: didn't get enough attention, that he wasn't reviewed in all 459 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 2: the places. And Ben said to me once privately, that 460 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 2: guy would have twice as much influence if he wrote 461 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 2: half as many books. And so I like to take 462 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,679 Speaker 2: some time between books, let it percolate, see what's going on. 463 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 2: You know, we're going to have a new president in 464 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 2: a couple of months, and I don't know if it's 465 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 2: going to be Harris or Trump, but somewhere around twenty 466 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 2: eight or twenty nine, we're going to have a different era. 467 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 2: We'll have some different tendencies or trends that are going on, 468 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 2: and that's what I'm going to want to write about. 469 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: So in a sense, you respond to what you see 470 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: as what the country needs to learn. Now, do you 471 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: teach a course on the presidency? 472 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 3: I do. 473 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 2: I teach at Yeshiva University in New York, and I 474 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 2: go up there Mondays and Tuesdays, and I also teach 475 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 2: a class on great American political thinkers. But I never 476 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 2: really had a teaching opportunity until just recently when Yeshiva 477 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 2: reached out to me. And because of what's going on 478 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 2: in the universities, and I'm so upset about I went 479 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 2: to Cornell University, but I wouldn't send a kid there now. 480 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 2: So I decided to try and help Yeshiva because I 481 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 2: think these religious schools are slower to take on the 482 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 2: excesses of the woke left. I think they're resistant to 483 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 2: some of those fevers, and so I think they're better 484 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 2: a place to get an education these days. 485 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 1: I'm an optimist, and I think the tide may be 486 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: beginning to shift in terms of wokeism. But that may 487 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: be the sign I'm delusional. 488 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I got to give a great stat here. 489 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 2: Ben Sass, who I'm sure you're a fan of I'm 490 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 2: a big fan, and he actually helped me think through 491 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 2: the ideas in this book. He says that Harvard is 492 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 2: not in the top twenty five of schools based on 493 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 2: SAT scores. How do you claim to be the top 494 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 2: school if you don't let in the top students. It's 495 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 2: just astounding to me. But the more people know that, 496 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 2: the more people realize that there's all kinds of great 497 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 2: places you can go in this country. You know, you 498 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 2: can go to Vanderbilt, or you can go to emeri 499 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 2: IM and there are other places that are not infected 500 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 2: by this wokeism and this kind of single minded thinking, 501 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: and you can get a real education there. 502 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think in that sense that the Ivy League 503 00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: schools have taken a substantial decline from where they were. 504 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: I think the number of people applying has gone down 505 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 1: just because people don't want to go and be brainwashed. 506 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 2: My thought on it is, yes, I don't want my 507 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 2: kids brainwashed, but you can correct for that to some degree. 508 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 2: But I also want my kids to feel unsafe. Obviously, 509 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 2: I'm Jewish and my kids don't feel safe on these campuses. 510 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 2: So there's only so much you're willing to take to 511 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 2: get one of these fancy degrees. 512 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,360 Speaker 1: Yep, that's exactly right. I think it's extraordinary what you've 513 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: been doing. I actually think it's very clever to start 514 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: with the idea of the president and and then try 515 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,120 Speaker 1: to figure out what is a topic worth pursuing. And 516 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: you've certainly created an entire pattern here that I think 517 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: all of us will look forward to seeing more of you. Know, 518 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: your new book, The Power and the Money, the epic 519 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: clashes between Commanders in Chief and titans of industry. I 520 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: think people are going to find it fascinating. It's available 521 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,239 Speaker 1: now on Amazon and in bookstores everywhere. And Tevy, I 522 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: want to thank you for John. I think this has 523 00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: been a great conversation. 524 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. 525 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 2: I've been admiring you since the very beginning of my 526 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 2: adult career and it's a real pleasure and honor to 527 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 2: get to speak to you like this. 528 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Tevy Troy. You can get 529 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book, The Power and 530 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: the Money on our show page at newtsworld dot com. 531 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: Newtsworld is produced by Gangwish, three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our 532 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 1: executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 533 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,360 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 534 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gangwish three sixty. If 535 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 536 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 1: Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and give 537 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 538 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newtsworld can sign up for my 539 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: three free weekly columns at gingwishtree sixty dot com swash newsletter. 540 00:26:52,400 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.