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Speaker 1: Too Much Information is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Too Much Information,

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Speaker 2: the show that brings you the secret history and little

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Speaker 2: known facts behind your favorite movies, music, TV shows, and more.

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Speaker 2: We are your doom d romantics of details, your green

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Speaker 2: lights of Granularity, your bootleggers of Bonaldi, your jazz age

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Speaker 2: revelers of revelatory facts. My name is Jordan run Todg

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Speaker 2: and I'm Alex Sigel, and today we are taking our

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Speaker 2: first trip into the land of literature by looking at

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Speaker 2: one of the greatest books of all time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we did a poll on our KOFE and that's right,

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Speaker 3: Gutenberg's Folly, as I call books came out on top.

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Speaker 3: So you asked for it, you're getting it.

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Speaker 2: Deal with it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, reap whatt you sew?

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Speaker 2: Not just one, but two episodes, because folks, we're looking

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Speaker 2: at the Great Gatsby.

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Speaker 3: And Jordan's a Gatsby nerd. Oh yes, please tell us pal.

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Speaker 2: First of all, I wanted to tackle this book because

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Speaker 2: it turns one hundred this month, which is kind of crazy. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the first episode is going to be about the creation

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Speaker 2: of the book, and our second installment will be about

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Speaker 2: the various film adaptations over the years, from the Robert

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Speaker 2: Redford and Farrell one to the Boz Luhrman Extravaganza, and

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Speaker 2: there are even some earlier ones before that. But yes,

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Speaker 2: the Great Gatsby. It really resonates with me because it's

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Speaker 2: sort of what happens when the most overly earnest, hopeless

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Speaker 2: romantic does a tour of duty in the real world.

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Speaker 3: In many ways, your life story.

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Speaker 2: This book was born from author F. Scott Fitzgerald's own

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Speaker 2: personal heartache and also his disillusionment with the excess and

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Speaker 2: hedonism during the post war prosperity of the so called

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Speaker 2: jazz age, an era that he's credited with both naming

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Speaker 2: and defining with this book. But Scott knew what he

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Speaker 2: was talking about because so much of The Great Gatsby

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Speaker 2: has pooled from his own experience, not just the wild

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Speaker 2: lawn parties fueled by illegal bootlegs and socializing with grand

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Speaker 2: old money families on Long Island's Gold Coast. Scott knew

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Speaker 2: what it was like to want something so badly that you

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Speaker 2: dedicate your life to it, and he knew that having

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Speaker 2: your dream come true is sometimes even more disappointing than

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Speaker 2: failing to get it at all. For those who need

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Speaker 2: a quick recap, the Great Gatsby follows the exploits of

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Speaker 2: a man born Jay gats He was a small town

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Speaker 2: Midwesterner who falls madly in love with a woman named Daisy. Sadly,

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Speaker 2: her parents find him an unsuitable match for her, because,

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Speaker 2: as the famous line goes, rich girls don't marry poor boys,

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Speaker 2: and instead they arrange her marriage to the brutish but

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Speaker 2: rich Tom Buchanan. Jay Gatt spends the next few years

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Speaker 2: channeling all of his ambition into reinventing himself as Jay Gatsby,

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Speaker 2: a mysterious millionaire who purchases a mansion on the exclusive

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Speaker 2: Long Island Coast, just across the bay from his beloved

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Speaker 2: Daisy and you must understand her husband. He throws lavish

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Speaker 2: parties in hopes that Daisy will one day attend see

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Speaker 2: what a success he's made of himself and finally find

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Speaker 2: him worthy to be her husband. But in the end,

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Speaker 2: Gatsby's dream falls apart and he comes to a violent end. Now,

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Speaker 2: your take on Gatsby really says a lot about where

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Speaker 2: you're at in life, because on one hand, you could

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Speaker 2: hold him up as the ultimate romantic idealist. He's someone

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Speaker 2: who dedicated his life to harnessing every ounce of his

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Speaker 2: ambition and transforming himself into a man worthy of the

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Speaker 2: woman he loved. And not only that he nearly achieved it,

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Speaker 2: he almost got there until the system that was built

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Speaker 2: to keep outsiders out decided that he was getting too close.

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Speaker 2: Or you could view Jay Gatsby as a criminal, a

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Speaker 2: delusional stalker, pathetically insecure loser who just can't put his

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Speaker 2: past behind him. The violent final pages of the book

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Speaker 2: could be seen as the tragic end for a naive

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Speaker 2: man who wasted his life chasing a mirage. The most

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Speaker 2: evocative description of Gatsby that I've come across was that

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Speaker 2: he's quote a false prophet of the American dream.

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Speaker 3: Yeah that's good. That's good stuff.

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Speaker 2: So what, you've never read this book? I'm dude.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure I must have at some point in high school,

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Speaker 3: but I really blacked it out. I mean, like I

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Speaker 3: I I don't know, man, I truly don't, because like

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Speaker 3: I remember reading Shakespeare, I remember reading like Separate Piece,

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Speaker 3: Mice and Men, and like a lot of the curriculum

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Speaker 3: that like I understand to be this, like Salinger and

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Speaker 3: everything but I feel like by the time I was

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Speaker 3: in high school, I was either in like Honors or

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Speaker 3: ap English where we were doing like Walden or Part

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Speaker 3: of Darkness or other stuff, and I just never, I

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Speaker 3: just like never caught up to this book and any

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Speaker 3: of its media portrayals.

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Speaker 2: And really so the story is totally unknown time. I mean,

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Speaker 2: like I know the broad strokes of it.

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Speaker 3: There's there's like a pair of giant eyes I think

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Speaker 3: it's called egg and there's champagne and and beautiful shirts.

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Speaker 2: That she's never seen in her life.

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Speaker 3: Beautiful, such beautiful shirts.

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Speaker 2: That's a very specific reference for a book that you've

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Speaker 2: never read.

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Speaker 3: So anyway, I was reading either stuff that was like

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Speaker 3: in a different like curriculum, and then I was also

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Speaker 3: personally doing like deeply embarrassing things like reading like Raymond

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Speaker 3: Chandler and hand come on. So like that was that

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Speaker 3: was a bit I did.

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Speaker 2: Uh, So you want to talk about high school bits

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Speaker 2: we did, well, we're going to go there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. And then and then at some point, I mean

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Speaker 3: I had probably the bog standard. No, I think it

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Speaker 3: is like a bog standard evolution. Like I got into

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Speaker 3: the beats, and then I got into I mean Thankfully

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Speaker 3: I got my Bukowski the way in high school, because

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Speaker 3: I would have been a much worse human if that

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Speaker 3: had been like if that had carried into college and

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Speaker 3: informed my adulthood in a separate way. But so, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I was doing stuff like that and more than anything

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Speaker 3: in the Great American literature canon. And then even when

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Speaker 3: I did start getting into some of that stuff, I

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Speaker 3: tend to start around the fifties. I just like, I mean,

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Speaker 3: I mean, I've done some also rises, I've done a

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Speaker 3: couple of different Hemingways, but like he was a Hemingway guy. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: which is part of the cliche of my existence, but

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Speaker 3: as the one I'm meant, well, but it is. I mean,

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Speaker 3: of course I'm the Hemingway guy and not a gas Back.

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Speaker 3: You're a Gatspeak guy. And I don't mean that, you know,

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Speaker 3: as an insult. That's just our personality types. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: and then I don't know, man, like my American like

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Speaker 3: literary canon starts really with like, I like all the

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Speaker 3: fifties stuff. Man, like give me a give me a

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Speaker 3: John Cheever, give me a give me your Salinger, or yeah,

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Speaker 3: give me your Sallenger, give me your your confessional poets

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Speaker 3: from that era and your Vonneguts. I'm a happy man,

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Speaker 3: but for something like this, just I've just never felt

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Speaker 3: a tug towards it. So I've never And then every

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Speaker 3: movie came out like I was just in between movie adaptations, right,

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Speaker 3: like I was born too late to see the Redford one,

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Speaker 3: and then by the time the other one came along,

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Speaker 3: I was just like so checked out of Baz Luhrmann's

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Speaker 3: whole existence that I had no desire to see it. So, unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: apologizing to every English teacher I've ever had, I missed

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Speaker 3: this one.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, Well, you know how I go. I gotta say

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Speaker 2: it's pretty good, what's worth checking out. It's under two

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Speaker 2: hunter pages. It's really well written. And don't take my

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Speaker 2: word for it. I was.

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Speaker 3: I was gonna say, yeah, maybe I'll read it on

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Speaker 3: the plane.

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Speaker 2: You probably could, it is. It's a quick read. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: probably why a lot of high schoolers like it. I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I like you. I first came across this book in

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Speaker 2: high school, like probably most people listening right now, but

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Speaker 2: I kept across it in high school in a way

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Speaker 2: that maybe is a little different and hopefully a little

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Speaker 2: different than most of the people listening in high school.

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Speaker 2: I liked the girl, which was not unusual, but I

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Speaker 2: didn't do the normal thing of asking her to come

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Speaker 2: over and hang out. I was far too shy and

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Speaker 2: secure for that, so instead I asked the entire grade

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Speaker 2: to come over and hang out. I grew up on

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Speaker 2: a lake, and I started throwing these big parties in

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Speaker 2: hopes that this girl I liked would come over and

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Speaker 2: be very impressed by my ability to throw a party. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't really think that far ahead, I guess, and

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Speaker 2: I would spend these gatherings either djaying or watching for

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Speaker 2: my balcony up above with my close friends. In either case,

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Speaker 2: I made myself scarce intentionally in an effort to add

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Speaker 2: to my mystique. That was my hope. Oh my god,

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Speaker 2: that's too funny, and my friends would all say, oh,

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Speaker 2: you're Gatsby. And I hadn't read the book by that point,

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Speaker 2: so I had no idea what they were talking about.

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Speaker 2: And they were like, oh, it's great. It's like a

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Speaker 2: soap opera. You would love it, and he's doing the

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Speaker 2: whole bit that you're doing.

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Speaker 3: So you maneuvered yourself into an Airsat's version of living

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Speaker 3: the Great Gatsby before you'd read it. Yeah, exactly on incredible,

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Speaker 3: incredible stuff.

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Speaker 2: Ask me if it worked well, Jordan. No.

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Speaker 3: Well, Thus, armed with that knowledge, I continue being your friend.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean I have to say kind of like

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Speaker 2: what you were saying. As much as I loved high school,

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Speaker 2: the required reading list that was forced on us left

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Speaker 2: a lot to be desired.

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Speaker 3: Oh wait, sorry, you loved high school?

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Speaker 2: I did.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so that's where we differ.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. But yeah, this book, when I did finally come

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Speaker 2: around to reading it, it really left a mark. I'm

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Speaker 2: reminded of that great quote from Alan Bennett's The History Boys.

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Speaker 2: He writes, the best moments in reading are when you

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Speaker 2: come across something, a thought, a feeling, a way of

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Speaker 2: looking at things which you thought special in particular to you.

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Speaker 2: Now Here it is set down by someone else, a

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Speaker 2: person you've never met, someone even who is long dead,

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Speaker 2: and it's as if a hand has come out and

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Speaker 2: taken yours. And I connected to Gatsby and by extension

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Speaker 2: f Scott Fitzgerald at this time of my life when

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Speaker 2: I was young, because I too felt this weird toxic

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Speaker 2: mix of wild insecurity mixed with belief in my own

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Speaker 2: abilities and possibilities. I was in my I can do

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Speaker 2: anything phase and believe that life was limited nearly by

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Speaker 2: the imagination. And you know, I still believe in that

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Speaker 2: second part to an extent.

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Speaker 3: Now that makes one of us.

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Speaker 2: It makes sense a certain kind of teenager would look

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Speaker 2: up to Gatsby as heroic and not as a delusional

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Speaker 2: man attempting to recreate himself in a pathetic attempt to

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Speaker 2: remake the past that he said desperately sought. There's the

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Speaker 2: famous line in the book, Jay, you can't repeat the past.

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Speaker 2: You can't repeat the past? Why of course you can, Michael,

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Speaker 2: can you repeat the past? Well?

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Speaker 3: I do identify with that aspect of it, because, like,

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Speaker 3: first of all, I was like any teen, but in

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Speaker 3: my case it was much more noticeable because the things

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Speaker 3: that I were picking were so outrait that like like

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Speaker 3: what well, I mean like, so at first, I like

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Speaker 3: attempted to just become like a pretty bog standard like

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Speaker 3: punk kid, and that was like perilous because you know,

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Speaker 3: I went to the Catholic high school and so nobody

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Speaker 3: everybody was like, what do you?

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Speaker 2: How are you suddenly trying to pull off this one eighty?

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Speaker 3: But I stuck that out for a while, but then

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Speaker 3: The next one was, as I think I mentioned on

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Speaker 3: our Tom Waits episode was Tom Waits, and so I

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Speaker 3: like started it was like Tom Waits and then the

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Speaker 3: Strokes hit uh wow for me, and then so it

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Speaker 3: was like, I mean they they'd been going for a while,

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Speaker 3: like obviously since two thousand and one, but it's I

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Speaker 3: think rum on Fire came out when I was at

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Speaker 3: sophomore or something. So I was just like, Okay, I'm

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Speaker 3: just going to lean into this thrift store aesthetic and

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Speaker 3: just like was dressing like a like a bowery hobo

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Speaker 3: in like for school. Like no, nobody was like doing

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Speaker 3: a wellness check or anything because of it. But it

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Speaker 3: became let's just say, my influences became very obvious. So

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Speaker 3: I understand what the attempt of trying to, you know,

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Speaker 3: reinvent yourself. And and you know, to a degree, we're

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Speaker 3: all trying to recreate the past because the present is

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Speaker 3: so miserable, dude, Like, what what are any of us

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Speaker 3: doing other than like, you know, that's the that's the

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Speaker 3: knock against most of our generation is that they're retreating

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Speaker 3: back into the comforts of youth because adulthood turned out

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Speaker 3: to be, like we just by dint of where we

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Speaker 3: were in late capitalism, like not a lot of panned

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Speaker 3: out unless you were already rich or you know, a

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Speaker 3: bad person.

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Speaker 2: Which is kind of what Fitzgerald kind of came to

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Speaker 2: realize this that I think will resonate with you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I know. And it's and and because of that,

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Speaker 3: I would call it like the quintessential American experience and

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Speaker 3: one that is still relevant. I mean, it's it's fascinating

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Speaker 3: to read also because like, well it's a I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's a bit of the you know, not that we

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Speaker 3: talk about him, but it's a bit of the Vind

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Speaker 3: Night in Paris, I mean, which also stars at one

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Speaker 3: point Fitzgerald and Hemyway, who's man Corey something who does

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Speaker 3: forget so damn funny in that. But you've got even

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Speaker 3: like even zoomers today are like thinking about the late

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Speaker 3: nineties as some kind of a like paradise because everything

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Speaker 3: is so dog right now.

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Speaker 2: So I mean, I get it. I think Gatsby is

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Speaker 2: different though, in that I think we could all sort

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Speaker 2: of understand the sense of nostalgia wanting to go back,

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Speaker 2: I mean, the Don Draper thing, wanting to go back

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Speaker 2: someplace safe where we are loved, you know, But I

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Speaker 2: think with Gatsby, he wants to remake the past as

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Speaker 2: he wanted it to be but never was. And I

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Speaker 2: think that's the difference.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's just called lying. Have you ever been to

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Speaker 3: New York? Like people do that all the time, like oh, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I have Yeah, I have a DIY band. I'm also

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Speaker 3: you know, Kevin Klein's kid, but we don't talk about that,

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Speaker 3: or like, yeah, I have a cool metal band. I'm

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Speaker 3: also the grandchild of some of the richest people in

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Speaker 3: American history, but you know, we don't talk about that.

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Speaker 3: Like Joe, you want to meet a bunch of people

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Speaker 3: trying to remake a fake past, find a kid of

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Speaker 3: the trust fund passing themselves off as an artist, Like that's.

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Speaker 2: I think you would have really liked Fitzgerald.

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Speaker 3: Yeah probably, Yeah, I mean, any he was an alcoholic,

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Speaker 3: so we had that in common.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this book. I think one of the reasons

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Speaker 2: it's resonated with teenagers for so many years now is

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Speaker 2: because it's less about love and achievement and more about longing.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's a that's a very teenage sentiment,

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Speaker 2: you know, would be nice. The Beach Boys, Yeah, love

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Speaker 2: to Pine. Yes. Yes. Scott Fitzgerald himself is a dreamer,

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Speaker 2: and all of his works are very sympathetic to those

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Speaker 2: who want to go beyond their limits. But his whole

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Speaker 2: ethos is tempered by the sense that achievement is fleeting

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Speaker 2: and the desire for success, that fire is more important

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Speaker 2: than reality. As the character Amory, who's a thinly disguised

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Speaker 2: version of Scott, says in his debut novel This Side

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Speaker 2: of Paradise, it was always the becoming he dreamed of,

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Speaker 2: never the being. F Scott Fitzgerald was one of the

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Speaker 2: great American strivers, and like Jay Gatsby, he died far

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Speaker 2: too young. What do you think. Let's get into it, baby, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: let's rock and roll. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy everything

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Speaker 2: he didn't know about the great Gatsby the book. I

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Speaker 2: call this section f Scott Fitzgerald's early years. He probably

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Speaker 2: could have been shoved into a few more lockers. Honestly,

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Speaker 2: let's get one thing out of the way, right off

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Speaker 2: the bat. Francis Scott Fitzgerald was indeed named after Francis

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Speaker 2: Scott Key, his distant cousin who wrote The Star Spangled Banner.

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Speaker 2: The lyrics at least the music is an old one.

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Speaker 2: Was a drinking song, yeah, exactly, which is amazing that

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Speaker 2: we've adopted that as a national anthem.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Interestingly, the title Scott initially wanted for The Great Gatsby

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Speaker 2: was under the Red, White, and Blue. And also interestingly,

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Speaker 2: another of Scott's distant cousins was hanged in eighteen sixty

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Speaker 2: five for being part of the plot to assassinate President Lincoln.

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Speaker 2: Hell yeah, brother, I just find it fascinating that the

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Speaker 2: man who seemed to articulate both the American Dream and

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Speaker 2: the American nightmare is descended from figures who both wrote

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Speaker 2: the national anthem and murdered the president who saved the republic. Well,

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Speaker 2: you know, sixth semper tirannus a little on the nose.

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Speaker 2: I saw a picture of the gun that was used

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Speaker 2: to kill Lincoln. Things a cap gun, thinking, like the

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Speaker 2: palm of your hand. It's insane.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I mean I love that. I love That's

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Speaker 3: like my obsession with the shinzo abby thing of a jig.

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Speaker 2: The guy who made the the homemade like look like

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Speaker 2: a potato launcher or something, the homemade gun.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the thing of a jig, and like they've got it.

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Speaker 3: I mean that's just what people call it on the

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Speaker 3: internet because they've like they've had this thing in like

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Speaker 3: weapons labs, like in Japan, and they're not able to

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Speaker 3: replicate supposedly, they're not able to replicate it because they're like,

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Speaker 3: we can't figure out how he did this without blowing

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Speaker 3: his arm off, so we can't study it as like

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Speaker 3: a preventative measure for keeping these parts out of place,

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Speaker 3: Like it was made out of trash.

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Speaker 2: Is he a patsy? I don't know.

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Speaker 3: It was made out of trash and it miraculously worked

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Speaker 3: for the first and only time, So like that's it anyway, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, good for uh, good for Lincoln.

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Speaker 3: He wanted out first of all. I think was the

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Speaker 3: best thing that could have happened to him. Reilcase considered

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Speaker 3: like it was like our most depressed president by a

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Speaker 3: country mile. He was probably gay, his wife was insane.

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Speaker 2: I didn't I didn't know, he's probably. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of references to like compare Indians who

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Speaker 3: frequently like shared his bed or something in some of

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Speaker 3: the historical stuff around him, and I like, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's widely known that Mary Todd was like a like

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Speaker 3: a mentally ill person who they did not have any

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Speaker 3: wherewithal to treat in that time, and therefore was a

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Speaker 3: tremendous burden. So yeah, and then like there's a I

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Speaker 3: think it's after signing the there's a quote of his

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Speaker 3: I am now the most miserable man living. What I

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Speaker 3: feel we're equally this was This was a letter to

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Speaker 3: someone in eighteen forty one. I am now the most

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Speaker 3: miserable man living. If what I feel were equally distributed

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Speaker 3: to the whole human family, there would not be one

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Speaker 3: cheerful face on earth. Whether I shall ever be better,

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Speaker 3: I cannot tell. I awfully forebode I shall not to

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Speaker 3: remain as I am is impossible. I must die or

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Speaker 3: be better, it appears to me. So, you know, getting

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Speaker 3: shot in the back of the head, like.

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Speaker 2: In the middle of a play that was probably not

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Speaker 2: that great.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just saying, like, there are worse ways to go, man,

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Speaker 3: including the shinzo abe thing of a jim.

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Speaker 2: You get shot in the back of the head during

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Speaker 2: the play. What play would it be?

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Speaker 3: Oh, waiting for GOODO from maximum for like maximum tragedy

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Speaker 3: cognitive disconnect, it would have to be I think after

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Speaker 3: the first act, which is like comic and the part

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Speaker 3: that everyone part, the part of it that everyone remembers,

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Speaker 3: because quickly afterwards the second act is like just pure

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Speaker 3: existential terror. So probably yeah, somewhere around the climax of

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Speaker 3: the first act.

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Speaker 2: Mom would be Cats by Andrew Lloyd Webber. I hate

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Speaker 2: that show. I know, I know which which cat had

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Speaker 2: the most depressing life? Let's kill it. Yeah, that's the plot.

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Speaker 2: That's like, am I missing anything? And the songs aren't great?

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Speaker 3: No, they sure aren't. Dude, I've tried to listen to

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Speaker 3: that when that movie came out and it was like, okay,

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Speaker 3: hates Yeah, well it's the same thing with Wicked. Man,

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Speaker 3: I was like, you know, if this is going to

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Speaker 3: be a thing, like I'm in a give it a

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Speaker 3: fair shake despite the fact that I hate musicals.

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Speaker 2: It's gonna say, for a guy who hates musicals, you

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Speaker 2: really give these a shot. You haven't given The Great

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Speaker 2: gats Be a shot. You gave that Cats movie and

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Speaker 2: Wicked a shot.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I was like, oh my god, this music

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Speaker 3: is dogs. There's memory, there's memory, and then just the

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Speaker 3: most interminable parade of crap and I uh, anyway, so

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Speaker 3: that memory is mid Oh, come on, depends who's singing it. Okay, sure, anyway,

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Speaker 3: So I'll make sure to shoot you in the hen

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Speaker 3: during that.

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Speaker 2: If I ever invite you to cats you know what

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Speaker 2: that means. You know that I want to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we're actually not sitting together, You're sitting behind me.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, moving.

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Speaker 2: On, Moving on. F Scott Fitzgerald was born in September

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Speaker 2: twenty fourth, eighteen ninety six, in the frozen tundras of

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Speaker 2: Saint Paul, Minnesota. And this is where the soul of

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Speaker 2: Gatsby began to take root. Do souls? There's too many

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Speaker 2: There's too many things happening.

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Speaker 3: There, mostly because the I don't think things rooted in

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Speaker 3: the frozen soil of Minnesota's only Jehovah's witnesses and alcoholics, right,

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Speaker 3: that's what they grow.

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Speaker 2: There's Scott and his family lived on Summit Avenue, the

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Speaker 2: nicest street in town, boasting those beautiful houses. But while

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Speaker 2: the FitzGeralds hadn't address on this exclusive street, they lived

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Speaker 2: at the far end of the row in a house

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Speaker 2: that was not as nice as the others. Just before

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Speaker 2: the street turned or became not as nice, the FitzGeralds

406
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Speaker 2: were essentially a middle class family and Catholic double whammy,

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Speaker 2: living on an upper class street. Moreover, they never owned

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Speaker 2: their own home, but always rented. From his earliest years,

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Speaker 2: young Scott was painfully aware of his social status and

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Speaker 2: the sense that its family didn't measure up to the neighbors.

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Speaker 2: As a result, he developed what he described his incredible

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Speaker 2: way as a two cylinder inferiority complex. Yeah oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: you and me both. Like Jay Gatsby, whose home was

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Speaker 2: in the new money enclave of West Egg, New York,

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Speaker 2: Scott lived with a sense that there was something better

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Speaker 2: just next door, and he could get there if he

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Speaker 2: just put his mind to it. In a short story,

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Speaker 2: Winter Dreams, published in nineteen twenty two, Scott writes a

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Speaker 2: thinly disguised version of himself, a man who quote wanted

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Speaker 2: not association with glittering things in people. He wanted the

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Speaker 2: glittering things themselves. Scott both admired the rich and also

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Speaker 2: deeply distrusted them. Yeah, likely because he never felt accepted

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Speaker 2: by them.

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Speaker 3: That's the correct position, buddy.

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Speaker 2: He always remembered a storybook from his childhood where big

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Speaker 2: animals were pitted against the little ones. He resented the

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Speaker 2: fact that the author clearly seemed to favor the larger beasts,

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Speaker 2: But my sentiment, he later said, was with the smaller ones.

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Speaker 2: I wonder if even then I had a sense of

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Speaker 2: the wearing down power of big, respectable people. One of

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Speaker 2: the most prevalent archetypes in Scott's writing is a Midwesterner

432
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 2: who's been shut out by high society. This makes sense

433
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 2: considering he grew up as in his own words, a

434
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 2: poor boy in a rich town, a poor boy in

435
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 2: a rich boy's school, and a poor boy in a

436
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 2: rich man's club at Princeton. I have never been able

437
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 2: to forgive the rich for being rich, and it's held

438
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 2: my entire life and works. I need love this.

439
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, don't ever forgive them.

440
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 2: Scott had his first piece of fiction published at age

441
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 2: thirteen in his grammar school newspaper, and as he progressed

442
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 2: into his teenage years, he was sent to a New

443
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 2: Jersey prep school, where his writing talents were encouraged by

444
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 2: father Sigourney Fay, a man who.

445
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 3: Ne Sigourney Weaver is named after him.

446
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, well no. Scott named a character one of

447
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 2: his books Sigourney, and then Sigourney Weaver chose her stage

448
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 2: name from that character. I forget if it was from

449
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,679
Speaker 2: the set of Paradise or The Beautiful the Damned, I forget,

450
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: But yes, this priest may have also sexually abused him,

451
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 2: which adds a whole other wrinkle to Scott's writing. Well,

452
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 2: you know that'll happen too. You'll have some of those.

453
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 3: You're gonna get some molesters.

454
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 2: After prep school, Scott dreamed of attending nearby Princeton. He

455
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 2: considered Harvard men quote sissies, and Yale men as quote

456
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 2: wearing big blue sweaters and smoking a pipe, presumably in

457
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:32,120
Speaker 2: a bad way. But Princeton, in his estimation, was quote lazy,

458
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 2: good looking, and aristocratic like a spring day.

459
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 3: Sure man, Yeah, all right, I don't. I definitely don't

460
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 3: characterize my spring days in relation to the rich.

461
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 2: But whatever flats you about pow. To Scott, Princeton epitomized

462
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 2: the East Coast establishment, from which he desperately sought acceptance.

463
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 2: He failed the Princeton interest exams twice before meeting with

464
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 2: the admissions committee on what happened to be his seventeenth

465
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,199
Speaker 2: birthday and talked himself into a place at the school.

466
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 2: Hell yeah. Upon enrollment, he promptly neglected his studies in

467
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 2: favor of writing for a number of campus publications and

468
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: drafting lyrics for a musical put on by Princeton's esteemed

469
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 2: Triangle Club. Initially, Scott wanted to be a poet. While

470
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,880
Speaker 2: at Princeton, he wrote a number of verses inspired by

471
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 2: the works of keats Cool, but then disaster struck when

472
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: he met a Goyle.

473
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 3: Yes, during his sophomore year at Prindon. Yes, Marv Albert

474
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,479
Speaker 3: talks about the Great Gatsby. During his sophomore year at Princeton,

475
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 3: eighteen year old Scott returned home to Saint Paul for

476
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 3: Christmas break, where he attended a sledding party much like

477
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 3: the kind depicted in the Sledding Song.

478
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 2: I assume, oh yeah.

479
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,479
Speaker 3: Sleigh bells, right, we covered that that. It's just it's

480
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,360
Speaker 3: not about Santa, it's just about racing sleds.

481
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 2: Great, It's just kind of great.

482
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. It was there that he met Geneva King or

483
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 3: Geneva Genevra.

484
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 2: I still don't know Genevra. I'm not sure. It's a

485
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 2: weird one.

486
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 3: Guynevra, guyin Nevra.

487
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 2: If you were a loved one, know how to pronounce

488
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 2: g I n e v R. He's get in touch.

489
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 3: So her last name was King, who was also a

490
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 3: sixteen year old debutante from Chicago, and predictably, Fitzgerald fell

491
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 3: in love with her because she was not just any socialite.

492
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 3: Ginny was one of the self proclaimed Big Four debutantes

493
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 3: of the Chicago social scene. She and her three friends

494
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 3: literally commissioned rose gold pinky rings with the phrase the

495
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 3: Big Four of nineteen fourteen engraved in the inner band. Now,

496
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 3: the Big Four in American music often refers to the

497
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 3: most the pioneers of thrash music, which would generally consider

498
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 3: be Metallica, Slayer, Anthrax, and the fourth one kind of

499
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 3: gets moved in and out. It might be Exodus, depending

500
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 3: on if you're leaning towards to the Bay Area.

501
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: Anyway. But they don't have rose gold pinky rings unfortunately.

502
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 3: So here's the Wikipedia page for the Big Four, because

503
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 3: it is quite catty. Raised in luxury, on their families,

504
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 3: I'm gonna see if I can do it in the

505
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 3: Robin Lee voice. Raised in luxury, on their families, sprawling estates,

506
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 3: and Lake Forest, a wealthy Chicago suburb. The quartet enjoyed

507
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 3: caffree lives as losing, consisting of Folo tennis, country cub

508
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 3: flirtations and private school feuds. So gossip girl. Classmates at

509
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 3: her Connecticut prep school included members of the Rockefeller and

510
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 3: Bush families. Should have bombed it. The Wikipedia entry for

511
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 3: Generva is even less kind. As a privileged teenager cocooned

512
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 3: in a small circle of wealthy Protestant families, King developed

513
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 3: a notorious self centeredness, and she purportedly lacked introspection. Oh

514
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 3: really intensely competitive. King disliked losing to anyone at anything, tennis, golf, basketball,

515
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 3: hunting the homeless for sport. This competitiveness did not extend

516
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 3: to her academic studies. However, Although she completed her schoolwork,

517
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 3: she disliked learning and instead preferred parties where she could

518
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 3: sit up late gossiping with her Big Four friends. She

519
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 3: had three friends and hangers on, rich fulfilling life. This

520
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 3: gets so much worse, I bet it does. Other members

521
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 3: of the Big Four included a woman named Edith Cummings,

522
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 3: who had soon become one of the premier lady golfers

523
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 3: of the jazz age. That's fine. Scholars believed that she

524
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 3: served as the model for Jordan Baker, Daisy's friend who

525
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 3: dates Nick Carraway in The Great Caatsby. So after this

526
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 3: meet cute between a twenty year old and a sixteen

527
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 3: year old at the Christmas sledding party in Saint Paul,

528
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 3: both sad that sounds like a Tom Wade song.

529
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 2: He was eighteen, he was eighteen.

530
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 3: Oh he got into college two years early.

531
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,959
Speaker 2: I think he was seventeen when he got in anything.

532
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, so fine, delete all that. After a

533
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 3: meet cute at the Christmas sledding party in Saint Paul,

534
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 3: both Scott and Geneva went back to their respective East schools,

535
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 3: he to Princeton and she to her Connecticut prep school, Westover.

536
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 3: Scott did what any self respecting romantic would do in

537
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 3: that era and pummeled her with letter after letter, also

538
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 3: his fists.

539
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 2: Because this was the era. No I'm kidding.

540
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 3: He didn't, did he but he beat it? Did he

541
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 3: hit Zelda?

542
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 2: I don't think so. She hit She probably hit him. Yeah, yeah,

543
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 2: that's good.

544
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 3: This made Geneva happy because, per her Wikipedia page, she

545
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 3: measured her popularity quote by which boys wrote to her

546
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 3: and how many letters she received. Genevra Genivra Genevra would

547
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 3: frequently read Scott's heartfelt letters aloud to her other suitors

548
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 3: for their amusement, despite the fact that he'd specifically asked

549
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 3: her not to do that very thing. Once Scott mailed

550
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 3: her a short love story he'd written entitled The Perfect Hour,

551
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 3: in which he imagined the two of them together at last,

552
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 3: Guyinevra read the story aloud to a rival suitor, who

553
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 3: generously praised Fitzgerald's writing as excellent. She responded to Scott

554
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 3: with a letter that includes this hilarious sentiment, Someday, Scott, someday,

555
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 3: perhaps in a year two three, will have that Perfect Hour.

556
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 3: I want it, and so we'll have it. I want

557
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 3: it and so will have it.

558
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

559
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 3: It's like a weird mix of like extreme teasing and

560
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 3: then like extreme like Captain Picard assertiveness. I want it,

561
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 3: so we'll have it.

562
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 2: The Queen of Hearts from also Want to Land.

563
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 3: Someone told me, I think I read this on Twitter,

564
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 3: but it was like they've like waited on Patrick Stewart

565
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 3: at like some Manhattan bistroer but they were like, uh,

566
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 3: They're like, he doesn't turn off the Picard voice, So

567
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 3: like when he got to the when she got over

568
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 3: to the table and was ready to take their orders.

569
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 3: He was like, the salmon, is it good? And she

570
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 3: was like, it's a very popular dish. He says, wonderful anyway,

571
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 3: So I'm going to read all of her stuff in

572
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 3: that yeah bad voice. Ginevra responded to his Perfect Hour

573
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 3: short story with one of her own, which she sent

574
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 3: to Scott in March of nineteen fifty. In retrospect, it

575
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 3: does not look great considering the source. In the story,

576
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 3: she's trapped in a loveless marriage with a wealthy man,

577
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 3: all the while pining for Scott, her former lover from

578
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 3: the wrong side of the tracks. Ultimately, they're reunited after

579
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 3: Scott attains enough money to take her away from her

580
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 3: adulter's husband, so she goes to Great Gatsby. Yeah quite

581
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 3: part loud.

582
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: Here.

583
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 3: The scholars have noted the similarity between the plot of

584
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 3: her short story and The Great Gatsby. Scott kept Geniva's

585
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 3: story with him until his death. Years later. Scott's daughter, Scottie,

586
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 3: seriously returned Genervra's letters to her upon reading the note

587
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 3: she'd pen as a teenager Genevre Geneva, now well into

588
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 3: her fifties, was horrified. I managed to gag through them,

589
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 3: although I was staggering with boredom at myself. By the

590
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 3: time I was through, She'd say, goodness, what a self

591
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 3: centered little ass I was. I was too thoughtless in

592
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 3: those days, too much in love with love to think

593
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 3: of the consequences.

594
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 2: Some self awareness arrived a little too late, but she

595
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: got there.

596
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, should have been killed guilletin. It's nice that Ginevra

597
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 3: recognized that she was sort of terrible because she was

598
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 3: not very nice to our hero, despite the constant influx

599
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 3: of love letters from him. She still pursued other men

600
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 3: in the parliance of the times. She was a fast girl,

601
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 3: or a hoe, as she'd later say, I was definitely

602
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 3: out for quantity, not quality. In bo. Although Scott was

603
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 3: top man, I still wasn't serious enough not to want

604
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 3: plenty of other attention. Although she was honest ished Scott,

605
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 3: to whom she wrote, I know I'm a flirt and

606
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 3: I can't stop it. This tendency did end up backfiring

607
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 3: in a major way in May of nineteen sixteen, when.

608
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 4: Jinev ganiv ganever, I have no idea I'm going to

609
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 4: get one of them, was expelled from her prep school

610
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 4: for the heinous crime of flirting with a crowd of

611
00:32:58,640 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 4: young male admirers for.

612
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 2: Her dormitory window.

613
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 3: Her head mistress declared Geneva a bold, bad hussy and

614
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 3: an adventuress, an archaic term for a gold digger.

615
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 2: Could just set slut.

616
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 3: That's a value judgment or value negative, value neutral appellation.

617
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 3: By the way, I can say that because there's a

618
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 3: book called The Ethical Slut that someone told me about once.

619
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 2: I could say that because I have a slut. Well,

620
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: I mean.

621
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 3: Now, of course, jine Evra's influential daddy, who will be

622
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 3: not a metaphorical one that she would have entertained in

623
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 3: because she was a do nothing, rich lay about hoe,

624
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 3: but her actual father, who we will be hearing more about,

625
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 3: shortly threatened legal action unless his daughter was allowed to

626
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 3: return to school after the school agreed to that. After

627
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 3: the school cave to his bullying, he decided to pull

628
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 3: her out anyway and send her to another school, just

629
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 3: to prove that he could do it.

630
00:33:58,200 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 2: Now.

631
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 3: This was disastrous for young Guinea, a burgeoning relationship with Scott,

632
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 3: because the new school was further away from Princeton, thus

633
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 3: limiting their ability to visit one another. This was possibly

634
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 3: not an accident, as we will get to. This hurdle

635
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 3: meant that Scott was forced to visit Guinevra at her

636
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 3: family's waterfront villa at the end of his summer break

637
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 3: in nineteen sixteen.

638
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 2: This trip was an unmitigated disaster.

639
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 3: First of all, her class conscious father, stockbroker Charles Garfield King,

640
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 3: didn't like the cut of Scott's jib.

641
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 2: That's a sailing term, right, I think so? Yeah, yeah.

642
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 3: He supposedly interrogated the nineteen year old Fitzgerroad at length

643
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 3: about his financial prospects or lack thereof. Unimpressed by Fitzi's answers,

644
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 3: Gaynivra's father forbade her from pursuing the relationship and ultimately

645
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 3: ordered her to drive Scott to the nearest train station

646
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 3: at once, and supposedly Scott heard him utter poor boys.

647
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 2: Shouldn't think of marrying rich girls.

648
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 3: It actually doesn't appear in The Great Gatsby the book,

649
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 3: but it's infamy. That Line's infanmy comes from its inclusion

650
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 3: in the films where Daisy's to Jay. The line was

651
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 3: discovered scribbled in the margins of Scott's diaries. This couple

652
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 3: splintered throughout the fall, and by January nineteen seventeen they

653
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 3: were done for good. Ginny would say that she was

654
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 3: heartbroken because she was madly in love with Scott poorishness

655
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 3: be damned, but she didn't see a future with him

656
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 3: as a suitable partner due to his middle class status.

657
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 3: Scott himself recalled things a little differently, claiming that she

658
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 3: rejected his love with supreme bored and indifference, and ultimately

659
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 3: came to view her as an immature socialite who toyed

660
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 3: with his affections before throwing him away like a toy.

661
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 3: Ginny is obviously believed to be the inspiration for the

662
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 3: Gatsby character of dais A Buchanan, one of the careless

663
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 3: class of wealthy individuals who quote smashed up things then

664
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 3: retreated into their money. Scott would tell a friend in

665
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 3: his later years, the whole idea of Gatsby is the

666
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 3: unfairness of a poor young man not being able to

667
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 3: marry a girl with money. The theme comes up again

668
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 3: and again because I lived it. What did this dumb

669
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:58,320
Speaker 3: bitch to it the rest of her life?

670
00:35:58,480 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: I yeah, look that up. I don't know.

671
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 3: Oh, she paid, she paid for her, she paid for

672
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 3: her shit.

673
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 2: Oh we get to their divorce and all that. Yeah,

674
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 2: she had, she married. The guy she married was pretty

675
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 2: much as bad as Tommy Cannon.

676
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and then her sixteen year old disabled son died.

677
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 2: Oh I missed that part. Yeah so uh.

678
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 3: Oh she founded the Ladies Guild of the American Cancer Society. Okay,

679
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,720
Speaker 3: so she turned it around. Okay, all right, I withtrack

680
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 3: most of my bile, but not all. Never all to understand,

681
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 3: never all.

682
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,240
Speaker 2: Scott was so distraught by the rejection that he dropped

683
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 2: out of his beloved Princeton or was kicked out or

684
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 2: left due to ill health your mileage macverary, whatever the case.

685
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 2: He enlisted in the Army amid World War one w

686
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 2: W one, the Big One, which the US entered in

687
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 2: the spring of nineteen seventeen. While awaiting deployment to the

688
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 2: Western Front, Second Lieutenant Fitzgerald received training at Fort Leavenworth

689
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: under the tutelage of future President Dwight D. Eisenhower. The

690
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 2: biography Ike, an American Hero by Michael Korda states that

691
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 2: Scott was a difficult student, quote who slept through Eisenhower's

692
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 2: lectures and disliked him immensely. His enlistment was basically intended

693
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 2: as an honorable suicide, but Scott was wary of shuffling

694
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 2: off this mortal coil without leaving a grand artistic statement behind.

695
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 2: He would later say, I had three months to live.

696
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 2: In those days, all infantry officers thought they had three

697
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 2: months to live, and I had left no mark on

698
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 2: the world. He spent those three months banging out a

699
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty thousand word manuscript entitled The Romantic Egotist.

700
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: Horrible title, but a self aware one. The Romantic Egotist

701
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,439
Speaker 2: was both a memoir and believing that he was about

702
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 2: to die, a heroic war death, a last will and

703
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 2: testament from Fitzgerald. Ultimately, it was rejected by the publishing world.

704
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 2: Imagine think you're about to die and like spending three

705
00:37:58,080 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 2: months frantically writing a book that you try to get

706
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 2: it published, and everyone's like, nope, I bet you can

707
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 2: do that. You can't imagine that. I bet, yeah, yes,

708
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 2: very easily. The best that Scott got was an encouraging

709
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 2: note from Scribner's, urging him to submit again after some revisions.

710
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 2: This note was sent by Maxwell Perkins, a staffer at Scribners,

711
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 2: who went on to be one of the most famous

712
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 2: literary editors in history, and he'd play a huge role

713
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 2: in Scott's life. He also made Ernest Hemingway a star too.

714
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 2: Welcome back to him a little later. But things went

715
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,280
Speaker 2: from bad to worse for poor Scott in the summer

716
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 2: of nineteen eighteen. His book had been rejected. He was

717
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,959
Speaker 2: stuck in the army and denied the opportunity of dying

718
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 2: a hero's death because he was just stuck at home

719
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 2: base and the love of his life was gone for good.

720
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 2: Even while courting the woman who had ultimately become his wife,

721
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,919
Speaker 2: Scott continued to write the Genevre in a desperate bid

722
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: to win back her affections. This was not to be.

723
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 2: While Scott served in the army, Geneva's father arranged her

724
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 2: marriage to William Bill Mitch, a polo player who just

725
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 2: happened to be the son of his dear friend, a

726
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 2: prominent head of Chicago Bank. In July nineteen eighteen, Geneva

727
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 2: wrote Scott to inform him of her engagement. Bitch, I

728
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 2: know to say I'm the happiest girl on earth would

729
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 2: be expressing it mildly. She wrote, I wish she knew Bill,

730
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 2: so that you could know how very lucky I am.

731
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 3: Okay, I take back taking back all the things I

732
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 3: said about her. This woman deserved everything she got. Nice

733
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 3: What an abjectly horrible human?

734
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 2: Ah? Yes, yes, yes, yes, would do that. The worst

735
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,919
Speaker 2: part was Scott had met this man during his ill

736
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 2: fated trip to her family's house, and he wrote in

737
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 2: his diaries that he recognized this guy as competition, so

738
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 2: he was very aware of who this man was. In

739
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 2: a truly insane move, Geneva invited Scott to their wedding,

740
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 2: which he could not attend due to the fact that

741
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 2: he was enlisted in the army that he had done

742
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 2: after dropping out of Princeton because he was depressed because

743
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 2: of her.

744
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, not to put too fine a point on it,

745
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 3: but because of her.

746
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, these people the wealthy. Instead, Scott placed the invitation,

747
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 2: newspaper clippings of the ceremony, and a piece of Geneva's

748
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 2: handkerchief in his scrap book with the note the end

749
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 2: of a once poignant story. Though he would go on

750
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 2: to marry another woman, Scott carried a torch for Geneva

751
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 2: for the rest of his life. Friends would say he

752
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 2: couldn't think of her without tears coming to his eyes.

753
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 2: Many scholars would characterize his romance with Geneva as the

754
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 2: most consequential relationship of Scott's life, just as she would

755
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 2: provide the archetype of Daisy Buchanan. Her polo playing husband

756
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 2: who went on to become a director for Texico, served

757
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 2: as the model for Daisy's rich brute of a husband Tom.

758
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 3: Oh, sorry, he went to work in petroleum.

759
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is just.

760
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 3: This is getting like I feel like you're fighting with me. Yes,

761
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,919
Speaker 3: you made up a fake behind the scenes, her Great

762
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,479
Speaker 3: Gatsby to make me hate the wealthy even more.

763
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 2: Oh my god, guillotine. But scholars would observe that you

764
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 2: never made the same decision that Daisy Buchanan made, opting

765
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 2: for financial security and safety over true love, and given

766
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 2: the lack of rights and opportunities available to women in

767
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 2: that era, it's hard to blame her, and scholars have

768
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 2: since viewed Daisy more sympathetically in recent years. But even so,

769
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 2: this whole experience left Scott feeling immensely bitter towards the

770
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 2: upper class hell. He wrote in nineteen twenty six, here

771
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:39,240
Speaker 2: you should read this.

772
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 3: As he wrote in nineteen twenty six. Let me tell

773
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 3: you about the very rich. They are different from you

774
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,879
Speaker 3: and me. They possess and enjoy early, and it does

775
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 3: something to them, makes them soft where we are hard

776
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 3: and cynical, where we are trustful, in a way that

777
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 3: unless you were born rich, it is very difficult to understand.

778
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 3: They think, deep in their hearts that they are better

779
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 3: than we are. One hundred years later, nothing's changed.

780
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 2: I need like this episode.

781
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, just yeah, just public service message, like do crime

782
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 3: to the wealthy? Like it doesn't it's not really You're

783
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 3: not they're.

784
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 2: Not real people. You're not actually hurting anyone.

785
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 3: You're more likely to get caught because of course, the

786
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 3: police only exist for protection of property and social control

787
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 3: in this country.

788
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 2: But you don't.

789
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 3: You don't have to have a guilty conscience about anything

790
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:26,320
Speaker 3: you do to the wealthy.

791
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 2: Chances are they'll get over it.

792
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's also true. Yeah, they don't face real

793
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 3: consequences and they can bounce back. So yeah, I do

794
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 3: crime against the wealthy. What are they gonna do, like

795
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 3: write more art about it because they've never had they

796
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:43,800
Speaker 3: don't they're bad artists on taboot.

797
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 2: I love that this is still on the iHeart platform.

798
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I can't wait to get a one star

799
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 3: review from someone saying I'm I hate rich people, and

800
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 3: I'll be like, yes, I do, to give me a

801
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 3: reason why not to. The onus is on you stop

802
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 3: breaking everything.

803
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 2: Ooh we're so hated. Yeah, because of all the evil.

804
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 2: Three days after Geneva's wedding in September nineteen eighteen, a

805
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:19,399
Speaker 2: deeply lonely Scott professus affections to another social LIGHTE dude,

806
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 2: lay off the social lights. I know. Man.

807
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 3: Come on, bud, yes, Steff, come on man, you don't

808
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:32,320
Speaker 3: want to be doing this, buddy.

809
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 2: Her name was Zelda Sayre boom. Yeah, you're gonna love this.

810
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 2: He met the seventeen year old Southern bell wall stationed

811
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 2: at Camp Sheridan, Montgomery, Alabama.

812
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 3: She was a.

813
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 2: Vivacious, highly sought after socialite, and the comparisons of Geneva

814
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 2: were obvious, but Zelda was a little bit more uh

815
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 2: Southern her heil, I think I think you. I would

816
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 2: love to hear you react to this. So here, how

817
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 2: about you take that? Yes?

818
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, okay, I can take this. Growing up in

819
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 3: the post Bellum South, Zelda would say she derived strength

820
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 3: from Montgomery's Confederate past. Early on in the courtship, Zelda

821
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 3: and Scott took a stroll through a local Confederate cemetery.

822
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 3: When Scott failed to show sufficient reverence Zelda, Zelda verbally

823
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 3: roundhouse kicked him, saying he'd never understand how she felt

824
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,280
Speaker 3: about the Confederate debt, which, to be fair, was probably true.

825
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 3: This was because her grandfather was a Confederate senator whose

826
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 3: extended family owned the first and presumably only at this

827
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:38,959
Speaker 3: point in history. Wouldn't be surprised if we got another

828
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 3: one white House of the Confederacy. Zelda's father, Anthony D. Seyer,

829
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 3: was an Alabama politician described on his Wikipedia page as

830
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 3: an avowed white supremacist. And if that all sounds harsh,

831
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 3: bear in mind that he authored the eighteen ninety three

832
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 3: Sayer Act, which disenfranchised black voters for seventy years and

833
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 3: ushered in the era that we now know as Jim Crow.

834
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 3: Quoting once again from Wikipedia, where the editors truly brought

835
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 3: their a game. During her idle youth, Zelda grew up

836
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 3: immersed in the white romanticism of anti Bellum plantation life

837
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 3: built on slavery and she lived a privileged existence, free

838
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 3: of any responsibilities, with her every whim gratified by African

839
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 3: American servants.

840
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 2: Damp, they really got her ass ye.

841
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 3: Living in a racially segregated society where the lynching of

842
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 3: African Americans often occurred, Zelda never questioned the brutality and

843
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 3: injustice of Alabama's Jim Crow laws, and she idolized her father, who,

844
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 3: as a conservative Southern judge and white supremacist, served as

845
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 3: quote one of the sturdiest pillars of Alabama's racial hierarchy, tremendous.

846
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:47,439
Speaker 3: Also her father's uncle, so her great uncle was John

847
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 3: Tyler Morgan, who is a Confederate general in the American

848
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 3: Civil War and the second like as in right after

849
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 3: the first Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux.

850
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 2: Oh, oh my god, I missed that, thank you.

851
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 3: He also may have sexually abused Zelda as a child,

852
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,760
Speaker 3: which yeah, her dad the not the grand the second

853
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 3: Grand Wizard of the heaven God.

854
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 2: Standards at borrels here.

855
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 3: We sim belonged to a very old organization of a

856
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 3: certain cond.

857
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 2: Uh.

858
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 3: Later, when Zelda and Scott became pregnant, she insisted the

859
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 3: child be born on southern soil. Scott vetoed this wisely,

860
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 3: and it became a major point of contention. So all

861
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 3: in all, Zelda seems like a poor choice of rebound

862
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 3: for the heartbroken Scott until you realize the crucial point

863
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 3: that she was just as rich and just as vapid

864
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 3: as Guynevra, one of the most celebrated debutants of the

865
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 3: Montgomery Country Clubs set never heard a more pathetic sentence

866
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 3: in my life. A newspaper article about her quoted her

867
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 3: as saying she only cared about quote boys and swimming

868
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 3: and presumably instant uschanized racism.

869
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 2: She was very active and energetic, though what's got that

870
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 2: going for? Yeah? Scott would later write to a friend,

871
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 2: I'm in love with a whirlwind who says the N

872
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 2: word a lot. And also, as previously noted, Zelda was

873
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 2: highly sought after. A friend would later note courting Zelda

874
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 2: Sarah was competitive business, and Scott was very competitive. Peace

875
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 2: was declared in nineteen eighteen and Scott was discharged from

876
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 2: the army soon after the following year. In nineteen nineteen,

877
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 2: he proposed to Zelda, who turned him down due to

878
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 2: his lack of financial prospects.

879
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 3: Oh my god, f take the hint, take the el. Yeah,

880
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 3: come on, buddy, go back to the North.

881
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:52,320
Speaker 2: Coming so soon after the Geneva situation imploded, this rejection

882
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 2: did a number on Scott. He accepted a job writing

883
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 2: copy at a New York advertising firm, but it barely paid.

884
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,399
Speaker 2: Things got so bleak that he publicly threatened to jump

885
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 2: to his death out a window of the Yale Club.

886
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 2: I guess presumably the Princeton Club wouldn't have him in

887
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 2: because he was a dropout. I don't know. And he

888
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 2: also carried a revolver in his pocket daily as he

889
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 2: contemplated whether or not to use it on himself. Hell yeah.

890
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 2: Eventually he quit his dreadit day job and made the

891
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,280
Speaker 2: time honored move of moving in with his parents.

892
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 3: Really just the er millennial huh yeah.

893
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,839
Speaker 2: Yeah. He returned to Saint Paul, to the same low

894
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,800
Speaker 2: rent house on the same wealthy street, and became something

895
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 2: of a recluse for a time. He threw himself into

896
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 2: one last attempt at writing a novel. Abstaining from alcohol

897
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 2: and parties. Per Wikipedia, he worked around the clock to

898
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 2: revise his thinly disguised memoir The Romantic Egotist, which had

899
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:50,319
Speaker 2: been rejected in his Army Days. Although he retitled it

900
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 2: This Side of Paradise, it was a romana clef of

901
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 2: his Princeton years, and his romances was Genevra and Zelda.

902
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 2: You knowles A, that's a well known phrase.

903
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 3: Right, I don't know, but how many debutantes in your background?

904
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 3: I'm starting to look askance at you now, buddy, shockingly few?

905
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you are from New England. There's that.

906
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, ROMONAICLEF. Sure it's a novel that everyone knows

907
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 3: is about somebody real, but the author pretends it's not there.

908
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 3: You go, well, well said thank you, as Scott finalized,

909
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:28,399
Speaker 3: I still I can't.

910
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 2: I'm laughing at f F is going to be the

911
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 2: best recurring joke of this and I can't even think

912
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 2: about it without I need to get through this. I

913
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 2: need to get through this, as he as he finalized edits.

914
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,760
Speaker 2: Scott took a job repairing car roofs in Saint Paul

915
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,760
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, one of the more colorful pre famed jobs

916
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 2: I've ever heard. One evening in the fall of nineteen nineteen,

917
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 2: after an exhausted Scott returned home from work, the postman

918
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 2: rang the door of his parents' house and delivered a

919
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 2: telegram from Scribner's bouncing that his revised manuscript had been

920
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 2: accepted for publication. On reading the telegram, an ecstatic Scott

921
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 2: ran down the streets of Saint Paul, flagging down random

922
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 2: automobiles to share the news.

923
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 3: I love that, and this is where the story ends. Yeah,

924
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 3: he lived happily ever after.

925
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 2: Yes. One immediate upshot of his happy news was that

926
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 2: Zelda Sayer, the girl Nazi, agreed to marry him, you know,

927
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 2: since he wasn't a failure and and could afford to

928
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 2: care for her in the manner to which he had

929
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 2: grown accustomed. They tied the knot on the first Saturday

930
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 2: of April in nineteen twenty, just eight days after the

931
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:46,279
Speaker 2: publication of This Side of Paradise, not a coincidence. Hilariously,

932
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 2: no parents were present and there was no reception following

933
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 2: the service. Though Scott was finally married, his feelings for

934
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 2: Zelda at this time weren't exactly warm. According to biographer

935
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 2: Andrew Turnbull, victory was sweet, though not as sweet as

936
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 2: it would have been six months earlier, before Zelda had

937
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:09,320
Speaker 2: rejected him. Fitzgerald couldn't recapture the thrill of their first

938
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 2: love Fitzgerald himself told a friend at this period, I

939
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 2: wouldn't care if she died, but I couldn't stand that

940
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 2: anybody else marry her. His feelings, though, would ultimately solveen.

941
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 2: He'd later write to a friend, I love her, and

942
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 2: that's the beginning and end of everything. You're still a Catholic,

943
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 2: but Zelda is the only God I have left. Now

944
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 2: that's a hell of a lot.

945
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:39,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, pretty good foundation for a marriage. I'd say,

946
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 3: nothing problematic about that.

947
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:44,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

948
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just like watching a drowning man. Like just

949
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 3: ask for another weight more wyeah. In the words of

950
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 3: Giles Corey, you like that for a pool.

951
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 2: Nice. Nice.

952
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break, but we'll be

953
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 1: right back with more.

954
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 2: Too much information in just a moment. Wow, Wow, so

955
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 2: our boy.

956
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 3: A F's debut novel, This Side of Paradise, appeared in

957
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 3: bookstores on March twenty sixth, nineteen twenty. It was an

958
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 3: instant success, selling forty thousand copies within the first year.

959
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 3: Critics hailed it as the best American novel over the year,

960
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 3: and Scott became a household name practically overnight. Side note,

961
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 3: this novel also contained the first written word of the

962
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 3: term t shirt. At the time, they were seen as

963
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 3: undergarments marketed to bachelors who couldn't see you. Also, This

964
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 3: Side of Paradise is credited with the first use of

965
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 3: the word wicked to describe something good. There's not a

966
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 3: lot of Bostonians that know that. Another upside of Scott's

967
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,760
Speaker 3: newfound fame was that magazines now accepted his previously rejected

968
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:01,799
Speaker 3: storre man. I was trying to get some lilliteration. Let

969
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 3: me try that again, Scott. Another upside of Scott's newfound

970
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 3: fame is that magazines now accepted his previously perniciously rejected stories.

971
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 3: Case in point, the Saturday Evening Post now published his

972
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 3: story Bernice bobs her hair. Okay, man, that's a famous story,

973
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 3: but there was less to write about back then.

974
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 2: That's a famous one. That's about like somebody sort of

975
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 2: becoming a flapper. That's about like a woman becoming empowered.

976
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 2: And it was this big stuff. In May of nineteen twenty.

977
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 3: And before his death in nineteen forty, Scott published one

978
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,839
Speaker 3: hundred and sixty short stories, almost four for every year

979
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 3: of his life. That's a respectfable batting appage. Yeah, Soon

980
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 3: after the marriage, the new luweds resided at the Biltmore

981
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 3: Hotel in New York City, where they terrorized guests and

982
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 3: staff with their wild behavior. Scott would do handstands in

983
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:51,800
Speaker 3: the lobby, while Zelda frequently slid down the banisters. Gosh, buffo,

984
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 3: variety calls it buffo after two and that's a word

985
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,760
Speaker 3: they don't use light that after two weeks.

986
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 2: That's a Simpsons reference.

987
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 3: After two weeks they were asked to leave, so they

988
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 3: continued their wild jazz age Shenanigans two blocks away at

989
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 3: the Commodore Hotel. Upon arrival, they spent half an hour

990
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 3: spinning in the revolving door goodness. In general, they treated

991
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,879
Speaker 3: the town as their personal playground. Scott would later liken

992
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,919
Speaker 3: their behavior to two small children in a great bright,

993
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 3: unexplored barn spend a lot of time in Barnes, Scott.

994
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 2: I mean it is Saint Paul, that's true. And a

995
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 2: listener right in asking if we do a lot of

996
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 2: Life show in Minneapolis or St. Paul in the summer, if.

997
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 3: We can know if we can get it at Paisley Park,

998
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 3: then I'll do it. One evening, they took a drunken

999
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 3: trip to the County Morgue where they inspected unidentified corpses

1000
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:53,959
Speaker 3: for what who's to say.

1001
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 2: That's deeply troubling. That's a weird thing to do when

1002
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 2: your hammered.

1003
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 3: It is, yeah, and like we're ruling out sexual stuff

1004
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:02,799
Speaker 3: just to give them a benefit of the doubt. So

1005
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 3: what did they do? They tried to?

1006
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:07,359
Speaker 2: Did they maybe they were going to taste them? Did

1007
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:08,360
Speaker 2: they taste them?

1008
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 3: Long pig is the last taboo of the of the

1009
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 3: wealthy class, right, so they what do they bring along

1010
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 3: like a little charcoal girl or something? Or do they

1011
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 3: just defiled them? My research will bear me out. Another evening,

1012
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 3: Zelda insisted on sleeping in a dog kennel. That's fine,

1013
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:29,280
Speaker 3: should have done it more. Honestly, what have helped? Dorothy

1014
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 3: Parker first encountered them riding on the roof of a

1015
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,799
Speaker 3: taxi cab. Perhaps Scott merely was drawing on his prior

1016
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 3: professional experience as a car roof repairman and inspecting it,

1017
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 3: Parker recalled, they did both look as though they had

1018
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:42,560
Speaker 3: just stepped out of the sun.

1019
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:44,320
Speaker 2: Their youth was striking.

1020
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 3: Everyone wanted to meet him, and presumably the unsaid part

1021
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 3: in there was and was willing to accept Zelda as

1022
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 3: part of that bargain. Nevertheless, these days were not exactly

1023
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 3: domestic bliss. During the first few months of their marriage,

1024
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 3: Scott began to grow concerned that his unwashed clothes had

1025
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:05,439
Speaker 3: begun to disappear. Eventually, he opened a closet and found

1026
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 3: months worth of clothes in a giant heap. Zelda, the

1027
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 3: ex deb son of the slavery rich, had never managed

1028
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 3: things like laundry before and simply didn't know what to do.

1029
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 3: When a magazine asked her to contribute her favorite recipe,

1030
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:21,239
Speaker 3: she wrote, see if there is any bacon, and if

1031
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 3: there is, ask the cook which panned, to fry it in.

1032
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 3: Then ask if there are any eggs, and if so,

1033
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 3: try to persuade the cook to poach two of them.

1034
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 3: It is better not to attempt toast, as it burns

1035
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 3: very easily. Also, in the case of bacon, do not

1036
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 3: turn the fire too high, or you will have to

1037
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 3: get out of the house for a week. Serve preferably

1038
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,920
Speaker 3: on china plates, though gold or wood will do if

1039
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 3: handy get in their exploits in this era underscores the

1040
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,799
Speaker 3: uneasy relationship between Scott's life and work. He was living

1041
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 3: the kind of life that could easily be transformed into fiction,

1042
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 3: And then he wrote fiction while continuing to live it

1043
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 3: out in his private life. This occasionally left him tied

1044
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:00,439
Speaker 3: up in psychological knots. He was working on a follow

1045
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:02,600
Speaker 3: up to his smash debut, a book that would become

1046
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:07,400
Speaker 3: The Beautiful and the Damned The damn Ned. The plot

1047
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,800
Speaker 3: follows a young artist and his wife who become burnt

1048
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 3: out and bankrupt while partying in New York City. So

1049
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 3: she's had no good car ideas did he? Nope, just no,

1050
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 3: Just wrote from things that happened to him. Wonderful. He

1051
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 3: was the first blogger.

1052
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 2: A Loser.

1053
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 3: He modeled the characters of Anthony Patch on himself and

1054
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 3: Gloria Patch in his words, the chill Mindedness and Selfishness

1055
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 3: of Zelda. Metropolitan Magazines serialized the manuscript in late nineteen

1056
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 3: twenty one, and Scriptners published the book in March of

1057
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 3: nineteen twenty two, upon which it also became a success.

1058
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 3: Soon after the birth of their only child, daughter Francis

1059
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 3: Scott Scottie Fitzgerald nineteen twenty one and Losers, they moved

1060
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 3: to Great Neck Long Island. This vantage point, Scott observed

1061
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 3: the clash between old money and new money, which provided

1062
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 3: the underlying conflict of Gatsby. The people who lived in

1063
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 3: Great Neck on the west side of Manhasset Bay had

1064
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:13,040
Speaker 3: recently acquired their wealth, while those who lived in nearby

1065
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 3: Manhasset Neck or Cow Neck on the east side of

1066
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 3: the bay had inherited theirs. West Eggs, where Jay Gatsby

1067
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 3: would live, and East egg Is where the Buchanans lived.

1068
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 3: I'm right of this line from Midnight in the Garden

1069
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 3: of Good and Evil, where someone is assessing the principal character,

1070
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 3: the Kevin's basic character in the movie, who's this like

1071
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 3: gay southern antiques dealer man about town in Savannah. Someone

1072
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 3: is like, asks him if he's from new or old money,

1073
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 3: and he says, which do you think? And he said, well,

1074
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 3: at first I thought new because I don't know your family.

1075
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 3: But then I realized it must have been old And

1076
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:53,439
Speaker 3: he said, how did you know that? And he said,

1077
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:57,400
Speaker 3: because new money would have had that fraying armchair fixed,

1078
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 3: whereas old money would have left it as is, upon

1079
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 3: which this main character says, Ah, but you've guessed wrong.

1080
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 3: I am new money.

1081
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 2: I simply left it that way so that I could

1082
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 2: sell it to old money. That's good.

1083
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 3: Scott settled in Great Neck with other members of the

1084
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 3: nouveau rich, and his neighbors included the writer Ring Lardner,

1085
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 3: a made up name who never existed. What did that guy?

1086
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 2: He's a famous sportswriter. You don't know him.

1087
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 3: Oh, one of those guys who's like the noble art

1088
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:27,920
Speaker 3: and wrote a lot about boxing.

1089
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:32,440
Speaker 2: The Ringer might be named after him. Maybe no, no,

1090
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 2: it's not. I regret there fine that. I'm just gonna

1091
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 2: make fun of his name, which is stupid. That's two nouns,

1092
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 2: ring and lard. Unlike Scott's most famous literary creation, the

1093
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 2: home that he shared with his young family at six

1094
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 2: Skateway Drive was not especially ostentatious. In fact, it more

1095
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 2: closely resembled the Bungalow inhabited by Nick Carraway than Shay

1096
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 2: Gatsby or the Gatsby Mons if you will. Fitzgerald House

1097
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 2: was listed for.

1098
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:59,919
Speaker 3: Sale in twenty fifteen for three point eight million, which

1099
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 3: for that era. Yeah, yeah, that's shockingly affordable. But like Gatsby,

1100
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:11,040
Speaker 3: the FitzGeralds through raucous parties that they're home, fueled by

1101
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:15,440
Speaker 3: the newly prohibited booze prohibition became the law of the

1102
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 3: land after World War II. That's a whole other episode

1103
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 3: and an HBO series. I'm told, Oh, Empire with their

1104
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 3: Boardwalk Empire.

1105
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 2: People were all up.

1106
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 3: They were all talking about Boardwalk Empire at one point,

1107
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 3: and now people don't talk about Boardwalk Empire anymore.

1108
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 2: Brian Brian, Brian, Yeah, Oh, we'll talk about it in

1109
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 2: the morning.

1110
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 3: That's what I was going with. Those parties came with

1111
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 3: some amusing unorthodox rules, including this one. Visitors are requested

1112
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 3: not to break down doors in search of liquor, even

1113
01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:49,000
Speaker 3: when authorized to do so by the host and host

1114
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 3: Tess Okay. Scott had mixed feelings about living in the

1115
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 3: land of the wealthy. On one hand, he continually strove

1116
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 3: to emulate the rich, but he was also deeply offended

1117
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 3: by their grotesque displays of health and fundamentally disproved of

1118
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 3: their lavish parties.

1119
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 2: You gotta choose a sign. Scott was also somewhat unnerved

1120
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 2: by one of his neighbors, an enigmatic man named Max Gerlash.

1121
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 2: That's the thing about rich people in this area. I

1122
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:19,439
Speaker 2: can't pronounce any of their names. After serving the Great War,

1123
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,439
Speaker 2: Gerlash settled in New York, where he lived the life

1124
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 2: of a millionaire playboy. He flaunted his wealth by throwing

1125
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 2: elaborate parties, never wore the same shirt twice, and used

1126
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 2: faux aristocratic jargon like old sport. No one in his

1127
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 2: circle understood where he obtained his fabulous wealth, and he'd

1128
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 2: liked to keep people guessing by spreading self created myths

1129
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:44,520
Speaker 2: about himself. He claimed that he'd been educated at Oxford

1130
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 2: and he was descended from the German Kaiser.

1131
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 3: Many of these did you how did that test?

1132
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1133
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, yeah. Many of these details, including the Oxford claim,

1134
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 2: would be incorporated into the character of Jay Gatsby shocking

1135
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 2: in truth. Max Gerlosh was what I've seen described as

1136
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 2: a gentleman bootlegger who operated high end speakeasies on behalf

1137
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:13,040
Speaker 2: of Arnold Rothstein, the kingpin of the so called Jewish mafia,

1138
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 2: who was notorious for having fixed the nineteen nineteen World Series,

1139
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 2: which is a whole other separate episode. When prohibition was

1140
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 2: repealed at the onset of the Great Depression in the

1141
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 2: early nineteen thirties, Gerlash's bootlegging business dried up golf swing

1142
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 2: and he lost his wealth. He was so despondent by

1143
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:37,640
Speaker 2: this that he attempted suicide by shooting himself in the head.

1144
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 2: Nice Unfortunately or fortunately, this failed, and the gunshot left

1145
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:47,280
Speaker 2: him blind. As a result, he lived as an invalid

1146
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:50,320
Speaker 2: for the remainder of his days. Years after f Scott

1147
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 2: Fitzgerald's death, Girlosh attempted to contract his biographer with claims

1148
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 2: that he'd been the inspiration for the character of Jay Gatsby. However,

1149
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:01,720
Speaker 2: the biographer thought this was just the wild claim of

1150
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:05,760
Speaker 2: a broke invalid and refused to speak with him. Gerlosh

1151
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 2: died in nineteen fifty eight and was buried in a

1152
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:12,800
Speaker 2: pine casket at Long Island National Cemetery, an appropriately sad

1153
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 2: end for the man who was surely Gatsby. It seems

1154
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 2: obvious that this man was clearly the inspiration for the

1155
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:23,520
Speaker 2: character of Jay Gatsby. A self mythologizing ex soldier who

1156
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:27,720
Speaker 2: rapidly amassed a ton of wealth through shadowy means associated

1157
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 2: with the Jewish gangster, claimed to Oxbridge Education, had tons

1158
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 2: of shirts through crazy parties, and called everyone old sport.

1159
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:39,880
Speaker 2: The evidence really kind of adds up. Both Zelda Fitzgerald

1160
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 2: and several family members would say as much. Zelda's exact

1161
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 2: quote was Gatsby was based on a neighbor named von

1162
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:48,520
Speaker 2: Gerlosh or something who used to say that he was

1163
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 2: General Pershing's nephew and was in trouble over bootlegging. But

1164
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 2: for years, for reasons I don't fully understand, there was

1165
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:59,720
Speaker 2: some debate about this among historians. Literary historians, I should say,

1166
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:03,200
Speaker 2: I'm unclear if they didn't believe Zelda because the quote

1167
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 2: was kind of vague, or because she spent the last

1168
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:09,120
Speaker 2: years of her life battling debilitating mental illness in a

1169
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 2: psychiatric hospital, or just garden variety sexism. Could be all

1170
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 2: the above. But in recent years information came out that

1171
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:19,520
Speaker 2: one of Gerlash's speakeasies was mere feet from the Plaza hotel,

1172
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:23,440
Speaker 2: where Scott and Zelda frequently stayed while visiting Manhattan. They

1173
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 2: also discovered a letter from Gerlash in Scott's archives which

1174
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:30,120
Speaker 2: includes the phrase how are you and the family old sport.

1175
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,560
Speaker 2: This was all the proof that academics needed, and now

1176
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 2: he is considered the true inspiration for the character of

1177
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 2: Jay Gatsby.

1178
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean he stole everything else, right, like I'm sorry,

1179
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:44,440
Speaker 3: not steal he It seems very likely observed. It seems

1180
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:46,840
Speaker 3: obvious that this was his pattern. Yes, the guy had

1181
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 3: had one move and it was writing from life.

1182
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:52,200
Speaker 2: But he knew how to live an interesting life.

1183
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 3: No he didn't, Oprah. You gotta watch thirty Rocky Stupid

1184
01:04:57,400 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 3: son of a Bitch. That's like one of my favorite

1185
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 3: jokes in that show where they do a flashback to

1186
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:05,960
Speaker 3: Liz and Jenna doing improv in Chicago, like obviously a

1187
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:09,400
Speaker 3: second city reference, and then it just cuts to Tina

1188
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:12,480
Speaker 3: Fabian like, Okay, so I've got so we're gonna do

1189
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:14,880
Speaker 3: from the airs, like from the audience whatever, We've got

1190
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:19,880
Speaker 3: Oprah having lunch with sling Blade and she sits down

1191
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 3: and she goes, mmm, I sure do love these French

1192
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 3: fried pectators, and Jenna responds, no, you don't, Oprah, which

1193
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:35,040
Speaker 3: is like three levels of improv joke, like not yes, ending,

1194
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:37,160
Speaker 3: not recognizing her own character.

1195
01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:38,920
Speaker 2: It's just.

1196
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:43,360
Speaker 3: Anyway that phrase lives rent free in my heart. No

1197
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:46,120
Speaker 3: you don't, Oprah.

1198
01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 2: Soon after the FitzGeralds settled in Great Neck Long Island,

1199
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 2: the local paper sensationalized the Hall Mills murder case. I'd

1200
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 2: ever heard of this, It's been kind of memory hold,

1201
01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:58,959
Speaker 2: but this was one of the earliest true crime sensations,

1202
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:03,560
Speaker 2: a real life soap opera that exposed the tensions between wealth, morality,

1203
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 2: and justice in the roaring twenties. It goes a little

1204
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 2: something like this five six seven eight. Reverend Edward Hall,

1205
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:18,160
Speaker 2: a married Episcopal priest in New Brunswick, New Jersey, was

1206
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 2: having an affair with Eleanor Mills, a married choir singer

1207
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:26,000
Speaker 2: from his church. On September sixteenth, nineteen twenty two, their

1208
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:29,040
Speaker 2: bodies were discovered posed under a crab apple tree in

1209
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 2: a secluded area, both shot in the head. Torn. Love

1210
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:37,320
Speaker 2: letters from Eleanor to Reverend Hall were scattered all around them,

1211
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 2: adding to the sensationalism. Suspicions soon fell on Reverend Hall's

1212
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 2: wealthy wife, France's Noel Stephens Hall, and her influential family,

1213
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:50,760
Speaker 2: the Stevens. Rumors swirled that France's, possibly aided by her

1214
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 2: two brothers, had discovered the affair and orchestrated the killings Nice. However,

1215
01:06:56,400 --> 01:07:00,000
Speaker 2: the initial police investigation was botched, the crime scene was contained,

1216
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:04,080
Speaker 2: eminated by souvenir hunters, and crucial evidence was lost or mishandled.

1217
01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:09,160
Speaker 2: Nice A grand jury initially failed to indict anyone but

1218
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:12,439
Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty six, following new testimony from a maid

1219
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:14,920
Speaker 2: who claims she heard gunshots and screams from the Hall

1220
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:18,840
Speaker 2: of State, Francis Hall and her brothers were charged. The

1221
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 2: trial became a media circus, with lurid details and class

1222
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 2: tensions fueling public fascination. Nice Ultimately, the prosecution's case was weak,

1223
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:35,439
Speaker 2: relying heavily on circumstantial evidence and questionable witnesses, and after

1224
01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:39,360
Speaker 2: a highly publicized trial, all three defendants were acquitted. It

1225
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:44,080
Speaker 2: was truly the oj trial of its day, and the

1226
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:49,480
Speaker 2: murders remain officially unsolved. So to recap, you have Fitzgerald's

1227
01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:51,600
Speaker 2: life story where he's rejected by the love of his

1228
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:54,960
Speaker 2: life for being too poor. Then the love of his

1229
01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 2: life consents to marrying a rich cad while Scott's serving

1230
01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:01,600
Speaker 2: the military. You have Scott's actual wife refusing to marry

1231
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:04,640
Speaker 2: him until he made something of himself. Yeah, you have

1232
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:07,720
Speaker 2: this mysterious rich neighbor who throws crazy parties with money

1233
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 2: earned from the underworld, and you have this tragic, murderous

1234
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:14,480
Speaker 2: love triangle. All of the elements are in place for

1235
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:17,559
Speaker 2: the Great Gatsby. You would think Scott would recognize the

1236
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:20,120
Speaker 2: potential and get to work on it asap, but instead

1237
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:23,160
Speaker 2: he makes a doom attempt at becoming a Broadway playwright.

1238
01:08:24,280 --> 01:08:26,960
Speaker 2: He spent his initial period in Long Island is seeing

1239
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:31,280
Speaker 2: He spent his initial period in Long Island hard at

1240
01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:35,799
Speaker 2: work on The Vegetable, a satire that mocked the uniquely

1241
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 2: American desire to get ahead and keep up with the Joneses.

1242
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm sorry, Yes, I know this is perhaps the

1243
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:45,360
Speaker 3: foundational great American novel.

1244
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:54,920
Speaker 2: But was Fitzgerald a secret idiot? He's a great writer? Like, yes,

1245
01:08:55,120 --> 01:08:57,360
Speaker 2: to recognize you know, let me put this way. I

1246
01:08:57,400 --> 01:09:00,400
Speaker 2: have a friend who's a photographer, and I sort of

1247
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:02,960
Speaker 2: would say to them. I didn't say this to them

1248
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:05,000
Speaker 2: because that would be offensive and rude, but I sort

1249
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,639
Speaker 2: of implied, like I didn't really understand, like what made

1250
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:11,479
Speaker 2: a great photographer? That's okay, yeah, and so you're a

1251
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 2: credon what? And she basically described it as like you

1252
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:18,599
Speaker 2: have the entire world, you're picking this tiny little window

1253
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:21,960
Speaker 2: to like focus in on, and like, yeah, and that's

1254
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:23,880
Speaker 2: kind of how I viewed Scott here. He had his

1255
01:09:24,400 --> 01:09:26,559
Speaker 2: entire world in front of him, which is all fairly

1256
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:29,040
Speaker 2: fascinating at this moment in history and where he was

1257
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:31,839
Speaker 2: at professionally and personally in his life. And he chose

1258
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:33,400
Speaker 2: that little window to zoom in on.

1259
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:36,360
Speaker 3: But he didn't have an entire life. He had just

1260
01:09:36,479 --> 01:09:38,679
Speaker 3: all of this life experience thus far.

1261
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:42,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, other things he could have pulled from.

1262
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, but we know that he didn't. Like it's right

1263
01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 3: there in the novel that everything. He just wrote a

1264
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 3: bunch of people as they existed.

1265
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:53,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I'm sure you countless couldn't do that. Countless

1266
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:56,240
Speaker 2: others that he didn't put in there because it didn't work.

1267
01:09:56,280 --> 01:09:58,000
Speaker 2: It didn't work for the story he wanted to tell.

1268
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:00,439
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go with secret Idiot.

1269
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:03,280
Speaker 2: Also, I mean, I don't know you could even have

1270
01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 2: an entire story laid out to you verbally, like pretty

1271
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:08,320
Speaker 2: much like he did with Genevro when she wrote that story.

1272
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:12,200
Speaker 2: But the way that it's told and just the writing

1273
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:13,439
Speaker 2: of it is really beautiful.

1274
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:17,839
Speaker 3: I said, he wrote, Well, but maybe who's a savant anyway?

1275
01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:19,639
Speaker 2: Well just think about it. Well, this was Less Good

1276
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:22,880
Speaker 2: The Vegetable. The play was an adaptation of one of

1277
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:26,080
Speaker 2: his short stories. The plot concerns a man who aspires

1278
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:28,640
Speaker 2: to be president, that is, if he can't hack it

1279
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:33,640
Speaker 2: as a postman. He doesn't actually want the presidency, but

1280
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:35,519
Speaker 2: he thinks that it would be nice in a culture

1281
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:40,120
Speaker 2: that's obsessed with money power and upward mobility. Yeah, the

1282
01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:42,120
Speaker 2: whole this was a little too on the nose. If

1283
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:44,320
Speaker 2: you're critiquing the American dream and make it a little

1284
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:49,479
Speaker 2: more interesting, then the play was a flop, closing after

1285
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 2: opening night in November nineteen twenty three. The audience began

1286
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 2: walking out during the intermission, and Scott begged the lee

1287
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:02,800
Speaker 2: eating man to stop and just call it off, And

1288
01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:06,599
Speaker 2: when the actor refused, Scott fled the theater and hold

1289
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:09,240
Speaker 2: up at the nearest bar. Oh.

1290
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:13,479
Speaker 3: Baby, And okay, that's sad. I feel bad worse. He

1291
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:16,599
Speaker 3: shouldn't have said he was a dummy for some reason.

1292
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:19,600
Speaker 2: I don't know why. He owed money for this personally,

1293
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:21,639
Speaker 2: and so to pay off some of the debts incurred

1294
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:24,839
Speaker 2: by the play, he just began cranking out magazine stories,

1295
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:26,960
Speaker 2: which was the sort of go to move for him

1296
01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:28,320
Speaker 2: when he needed money quick.

1297
01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:30,320
Speaker 3: Oh it's a good to move for everybody. Dude, You

1298
01:11:30,320 --> 01:11:32,760
Speaker 3: have no idea how many of your favorite authors subsisted

1299
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:35,880
Speaker 3: on hand and mouth on like, especially once we get

1300
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:38,240
Speaker 3: into the era of like sci fi and yeah, oh

1301
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:40,599
Speaker 3: my god, yeah, you know you used to be able

1302
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:43,839
Speaker 3: to live as a writer in this country. It's just shocking.

1303
01:11:45,160 --> 01:11:48,240
Speaker 2: Although he viewed these short stories for magazines as worthless,

1304
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:51,679
Speaker 2: One of these was Winter Dreams, which Scott would describe

1305
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:53,960
Speaker 2: as an early attempt to the Gatsby.

1306
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:57,160
Speaker 3: Idea, inspired by the Holes Mills Murder, the shadowy character

1307
01:11:57,200 --> 01:12:00,400
Speaker 3: of Max glac and the parties he had at the

1308
01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:04,599
Speaker 3: homes of his long Island rich neighbors. Fitzgerald wrote eighteen

1309
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:08,479
Speaker 3: thousand words for his novel by mid nineteen twenty three, or.

1310
01:12:08,479 --> 01:12:10,240
Speaker 2: Roughly as long as this episode script.

1311
01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:13,200
Speaker 3: Yeah that's what I'm saying. Come on, kind a real

1312
01:12:13,280 --> 01:12:19,000
Speaker 3: job f podcasting. He discarded most of his new story

1313
01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:21,840
Speaker 3: as a false start. His early version was set in

1314
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:26,479
Speaker 3: eighteen eighty five, a few years before he was born.

1315
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:27,080
Speaker 2: And the plot followed the upbringing of.

1316
01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:29,800
Speaker 3: A Catholic boy growing up in the Midwest. This was

1317
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:32,240
Speaker 3: essentially meant to serve as a prologue that gave some

1318
01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 3: background on Gatsby, but he decided to cut it completely. Instead,

1319
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:38,400
Speaker 3: the bit was published in a as a short story

1320
01:12:38,520 --> 01:12:42,759
Speaker 3: that's Got wrote called Absolution. In his early draft Daisy

1321
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:50,040
Speaker 3: was named Ada, and Nick Carraway was dud The aristocrats

1322
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:55,960
Speaker 3: the fuck back on the secret idiot train is that

1323
01:12:56,040 --> 01:12:58,120
Speaker 3: was that common name of the era.

1324
01:12:58,280 --> 01:12:58,759
Speaker 2: Dudley.

1325
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:07,240
Speaker 3: Dudley was this is my son, dud So after tossing

1326
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:10,040
Speaker 3: out this early draft, Scott began again in April of

1327
01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:16,160
Speaker 3: nineteen twenty four. A few weeks later, the Fitzgerald, Scott, Zelda,

1328
01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:20,120
Speaker 3: and their two year old daughter Fitzi, boarded an ocean

1329
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:24,000
Speaker 3: liner bound for France. They settled in the French Riviera Jordan.

1330
01:13:24,160 --> 01:13:25,080
Speaker 3: You've been to this house.

1331
01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:27,160
Speaker 2: I've been to this Yeah, that's very cool. I think

1332
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:32,840
Speaker 2: it's a hotel now, ah, there it is, yeah, yeah,

1333
01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:38,960
Speaker 2: uh not the first appearance of a house that one

1334
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:40,960
Speaker 2: of these people lived in that is now a hotel

1335
01:13:41,479 --> 01:13:42,559
Speaker 2: for many people.

1336
01:13:45,560 --> 01:13:48,120
Speaker 3: So in this future hotel, Scott proceeded to write his

1337
01:13:48,200 --> 01:13:51,640
Speaker 3: brutal indictment of the American Dream. Critics have suggested that

1338
01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:53,679
Speaker 3: the melancholic mood of the book may have been inspired

1339
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:55,560
Speaker 3: in Parked by Scott's new home in Europe, which was

1340
01:13:55,560 --> 01:13:59,160
Speaker 3: still struggling to recover from the Great War. It would

1341
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:02,559
Speaker 3: recover justin time for the Rolling Stones to go there

1342
01:14:02,760 --> 01:14:07,120
Speaker 3: and do enormous amounts of heroin, so who's to say

1343
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:10,200
Speaker 3: if it was good or bad. I mean, we got

1344
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:12,200
Speaker 3: Exile on Main Street out of the French Riviera, so

1345
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:15,360
Speaker 3: like you can't be that kind of a wash, you know,

1346
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:18,800
Speaker 3: the World War One destruction Exile.

1347
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:22,799
Speaker 2: Here's it. Here's Exile.

1348
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:25,599
Speaker 3: Could be one album, right yeah, oh yeah, we all

1349
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:27,720
Speaker 3: know that there's some filler on it. Okay, I mean,

1350
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:31,760
Speaker 3: obviously there's the racist Calypso song, but like the rest

1351
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:32,720
Speaker 3: of that album could be they.

1352
01:14:32,640 --> 01:14:35,599
Speaker 2: Could they drinks it fast? Yeah, very much.

1353
01:14:35,640 --> 01:14:41,360
Speaker 3: I'm glad they didn't. The melancholy may also have been

1354
01:14:41,439 --> 01:14:42,760
Speaker 3: due to the fact that during their time in the

1355
01:14:42,760 --> 01:14:45,639
Speaker 3: French Riviera, Scott and Zelda found themselves in the midst

1356
01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:49,519
Speaker 3: of a serious marital crisis. While there, Zelda fell in

1357
01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:53,599
Speaker 3: love with a French naval aviator, which is probably an

1358
01:14:53,600 --> 01:14:57,160
Speaker 3: indictment of the French military that they have aviators in there. No,

1359
01:14:57,400 --> 01:14:59,439
Speaker 3: I'm kidding, I know this all mesched up. This guy's

1360
01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:05,439
Speaker 3: name was stu Though Edreward Josanne Edouard Jolins. After spending

1361
01:15:05,479 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 3: a few weeks swimming with this dashing navy aviator during

1362
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:11,800
Speaker 3: the day and dry humping with him at the local

1363
01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:15,160
Speaker 3: casinos on the dance floor at night, Zelda decided that

1364
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:17,719
Speaker 3: she wanted to leave Scott and asked him for a divorce.

1365
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:21,040
Speaker 3: Scott responded in a totally level headed, rational way by

1366
01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:23,400
Speaker 3: locking Zelda in their home and going to confront his

1367
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:25,639
Speaker 3: rival face to face and challenge him to a duel.

1368
01:15:25,880 --> 01:15:31,920
Speaker 3: Been there, Hell yeah. Unfortunately, upon trying to track Edrew

1369
01:15:31,960 --> 01:15:34,639
Speaker 3: add down, he discovered this man, in the true manner

1370
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:38,640
Speaker 3: of all frenchmen, had turned tail with no intention of

1371
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:43,200
Speaker 3: ever marrying Zelda. He'd simply skipped town and FitzGeralds never

1372
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:49,960
Speaker 3: saw him again. You faded, La ma Seles. What a

1373
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:53,640
Speaker 3: great people. Zelda was distraught by this whole thing and

1374
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:56,280
Speaker 3: took an overdose of sleeping pills, but survived because she

1375
01:15:56,560 --> 01:16:00,760
Speaker 3: just had so much more racism left in her. H

1376
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:07,640
Speaker 3: This is where things get weird weirder. Eduardo Edouard Josane

1377
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:10,160
Speaker 3: would later claim that Zelda had made the entire story

1378
01:16:10,240 --> 01:16:13,200
Speaker 3: up and that there was no romance between them. They

1379
01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:15,640
Speaker 3: both had a need of drama, they made it up,

1380
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:18,360
Speaker 3: and perhaps they were the victims of their own unsettled

1381
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:21,880
Speaker 3: and a little unhealthy imagination, which is fine, but I'm

1382
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:24,040
Speaker 3: also choosing him to paint him as a coward.

1383
01:16:24,080 --> 01:16:25,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, because he's a Frenchman.

1384
01:16:26,200 --> 01:16:28,920
Speaker 3: The couple apparently never spoke of the incident again, but

1385
01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:31,559
Speaker 3: it created a rift in their marriage that never fully healed.

1386
01:16:32,080 --> 01:16:34,759
Speaker 3: Fitzgerald wrote in his notebook, I knew something had happened

1387
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:37,439
Speaker 3: that could never be repaired. He took many elements of

1388
01:16:37,439 --> 01:16:40,040
Speaker 3: his stormy relationship with Zelda, including the loss of his

1389
01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:43,720
Speaker 3: certainty in her love, and as is becoming a.

1390
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:45,320
Speaker 2: Theme, channeled it into his novel.

1391
01:16:46,040 --> 01:16:48,120
Speaker 3: In August of nineteen twenty four, he wrote to a friend,

1392
01:16:48,439 --> 01:16:51,559
Speaker 3: I feel old too this summer. The whole burden of

1393
01:16:51,560 --> 01:16:54,040
Speaker 3: this novel, the loss of those illusions that give such

1394
01:16:54,080 --> 01:16:55,920
Speaker 3: color to the world that you don't care whether things

1395
01:16:55,920 --> 01:16:58,000
Speaker 3: are true or false as long as they partake of

1396
01:16:58,040 --> 01:17:00,360
Speaker 3: the magical glory.

1397
01:17:01,040 --> 01:17:05,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a good writers. It's worth reading.

1398
01:17:05,920 --> 01:17:09,760
Speaker 3: He's a good Maybe I'll get to it, Maybe I won't.

1399
01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:12,400
Speaker 2: There's a lot to make.

1400
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:18,320
Speaker 3: What are you gonna do? Also, it's hilarious that the

1401
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:20,680
Speaker 3: jazz age is coined by a white guy married to

1402
01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:23,880
Speaker 3: a racist woman, and it was explicitly about just tooling

1403
01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:26,160
Speaker 3: around and having parties with rich white people.

1404
01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:31,599
Speaker 2: You this country. Tremendous, tremendous point.

1405
01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:35,720
Speaker 3: You you fitzy, fucking Fitzy. He was always doing that

1406
01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:38,600
Speaker 3: kind of ships.

1407
01:17:39,160 --> 01:17:40,120
Speaker 2: Uh.

1408
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:43,160
Speaker 3: So, as as has become a parent by this point,

1409
01:17:43,280 --> 01:17:48,559
Speaker 3: Jay Gatsby is primarily an amagamation. I do it put

1410
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:51,920
Speaker 3: that one in So as has become a parent, Jay

1411
01:17:51,920 --> 01:17:57,559
Speaker 3: Gatsby's primarily an amalgamation of Flashy self, mythologizing bootlegger Max

1412
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:02,920
Speaker 3: Gaelach and Scott himself, the romantic Midwestern striver who spent

1413
01:18:03,040 --> 01:18:05,240
Speaker 3: most of the life on the outside of high society,

1414
01:18:05,240 --> 01:18:08,040
Speaker 3: looking in desperately hoping that he could be good enough

1415
01:18:08,120 --> 01:18:11,360
Speaker 3: for the crowds of Princeton or Manhattan, or Long Island

1416
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:15,160
Speaker 3: or the Riviera. And if he couldn't get that, then

1417
01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:18,440
Speaker 3: at the very least he'd shtook a couple of them.

1418
01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:21,240
Speaker 3: Scott would later say in this period, I know gads

1419
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:24,360
Speaker 3: be better than I know my own child. Horrible. Wow,

1420
01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:30,240
Speaker 3: Why would you say that to the world. I had

1421
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:32,639
Speaker 3: him a while and then I lost him, and now

1422
01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:33,840
Speaker 3: I know I have him again.

1423
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:36,599
Speaker 2: At okay once again.

1424
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:39,400
Speaker 3: Scholar Mariene Corgan, who wrote the book, So we read

1425
01:18:39,439 --> 01:18:41,679
Speaker 3: on how the Great gats became to be and why

1426
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:44,760
Speaker 3: it endures. Observed during her appearance on an episode of

1427
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:49,479
Speaker 3: Fresh Air, very white sentence, Yeah, I know. I think

1428
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:51,920
Speaker 3: you get that sense in Fitzgerald of someone who remade

1429
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:54,679
Speaker 3: himself but also was aware at times in his life

1430
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:56,640
Speaker 3: that he was pretending to be someone he was not.

1431
01:18:57,600 --> 01:19:00,720
Speaker 3: Commentator Chris Matthews, not the hard ball I think it

1432
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:04,520
Speaker 3: is the heartball guy, the hardball guy. Chris Matthews elaborated

1433
01:19:04,560 --> 01:19:07,759
Speaker 3: on this point. Catsby needed more than money. He needed

1434
01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:10,519
Speaker 3: to be someone who had always had it, this blind

1435
01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:13,519
Speaker 3: faith that he can retrofit his very existence to Daisy

1436
01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:16,280
Speaker 3: specification is the heart and soul of the great Catsby.

1437
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:19,599
Speaker 3: It's the classic story of the fresh start, the second chance.

1438
01:19:20,479 --> 01:19:23,479
Speaker 3: There are some who believe that Jay Gatsby resembles Scott's

1439
01:19:23,479 --> 01:19:28,680
Speaker 3: maternal grandfather, Philip Francis McQuillan. A lot of Francis is

1440
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:31,920
Speaker 3: running around in this family who emigrated from Ireland. Whether

1441
01:19:32,000 --> 01:19:34,519
Speaker 3: it is at age eight before settling in Saint Paul

1442
01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:38,080
Speaker 3: and making a reasonable fortune running a wholesale grocery establishment,

1443
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 3: then dying at the age of forty three of tuberculosis

1444
01:19:42,320 --> 01:19:49,160
Speaker 3: and chronic nephritis, is that now, it's probably some skin

1445
01:19:49,320 --> 01:19:51,160
Speaker 3: skin rotting thing. I don't actually want to know.

1446
01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:55,519
Speaker 2: No, I think it's like a liver thing. Kidney kidney

1447
01:19:55,720 --> 01:19:56,360
Speaker 2: sounds awful.

1448
01:19:57,680 --> 01:20:00,200
Speaker 3: His money, however, apparently did not make its way to

1449
01:20:01,120 --> 01:20:06,960
Speaker 3: our boy's parents, also known as f MA and f Pa.

1450
01:20:07,680 --> 01:20:08,000
Speaker 2: What's that?

1451
01:20:08,360 --> 01:20:10,439
Speaker 3: I'm gonna see how long I can push this until

1452
01:20:10,479 --> 01:20:11,360
Speaker 3: one of them dies?

1453
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:16,080
Speaker 2: What's the life of the departed? Like lace, Curt and Irish? Oh?

1454
01:20:16,120 --> 01:20:18,400
Speaker 3: The line of the part is it when dignant?

1455
01:20:18,439 --> 01:20:19,080
Speaker 2: Is is it?

1456
01:20:19,120 --> 01:20:21,560
Speaker 3: When dignan's? I bet you had two accents?

1457
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:25,240
Speaker 2: H hang on? You were like two different people. Bet

1458
01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:26,320
Speaker 2: you had two different accents.

1459
01:20:26,520 --> 01:20:28,799
Speaker 3: Oh right, hang on, hang on, hang on. Your family's

1460
01:20:28,840 --> 01:20:31,000
Speaker 3: dug it in the south the projects like ticks three

1461
01:20:31,040 --> 01:20:32,000
Speaker 3: deca man at best.

1462
01:20:32,360 --> 01:20:34,280
Speaker 2: You, however, grew up on the North Shore.

1463
01:20:34,439 --> 01:20:37,320
Speaker 3: Huh well, Lottien dah, you were some kind of a

1464
01:20:37,360 --> 01:20:37,920
Speaker 3: double kid.

1465
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:38,639
Speaker 2: I bet right.

1466
01:20:38,840 --> 01:20:40,680
Speaker 3: Huh one kid with your old man, one kid with

1467
01:20:40,720 --> 01:20:43,080
Speaker 3: your mother. You're upper middle class during the weeks, then

1468
01:20:43,080 --> 01:20:44,920
Speaker 3: you're dropping your ohs and you're hanging in the big

1469
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:48,240
Speaker 3: bad SOAUTHI projects with your daddy the fu donkey on

1470
01:20:48,280 --> 01:20:51,920
Speaker 3: the weekends. I got that right. Yep, you have two

1471
01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:55,799
Speaker 3: different accents. You did didn't, you, little fucking snake.

1472
01:20:56,479 --> 01:20:59,920
Speaker 2: You were like two different people. You're a psychiatry.

1473
01:21:00,360 --> 01:21:02,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, if I was, I'd ask you why you're

1474
01:21:02,080 --> 01:21:04,840
Speaker 3: a stateie making thirty grand a year. And I think

1475
01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:07,759
Speaker 3: if I was Sigmund Freud, I wouldn't get an answer.

1476
01:21:08,040 --> 01:21:10,439
Speaker 3: So tell me what's a lace curtain mother like you

1477
01:21:10,560 --> 01:21:13,200
Speaker 3: doing in the stadies? And then of course this is

1478
01:21:14,120 --> 01:21:17,240
Speaker 3: this is God. This movie wins because then he hits

1479
01:21:17,280 --> 01:21:19,920
Speaker 3: him back with families are always Rising in the Falling

1480
01:21:19,960 --> 01:21:25,000
Speaker 3: in America. And then Martin Sheen goes, who said that.

1481
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:27,280
Speaker 2: Hawthorn don't know any Shakespeare.

1482
01:21:27,479 --> 01:21:32,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, what's the matter of smart ass don't know any Shakespeare? God, God,

1483
01:21:32,320 --> 01:21:36,280
Speaker 3: I don't. We haven't seen that's poetry. That's American literature,

1484
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:39,439
Speaker 3: all right, As you were.

1485
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:43,360
Speaker 2: We mentioned earlier that the Fitzgerald's Long Island House wasn't

1486
01:21:43,439 --> 01:21:46,720
Speaker 2: much the right home about Gatsby's palatial manner was an

1487
01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:50,560
Speaker 2: amalgam of several real life mansions on Long Island's Gold Coast.

1488
01:21:50,840 --> 01:21:55,000
Speaker 2: The most obvious candidate is the o'haca Castle in Huntington,

1489
01:21:55,040 --> 01:21:58,880
Speaker 2: New York. Hobo my friend Anna, Maria's family and my

1490
01:21:59,000 --> 01:22:03,479
Speaker 2: therapist one hundred and ten years after the construction began

1491
01:22:03,520 --> 01:22:07,639
Speaker 2: in nineteen fifteen, the house is still the largest private

1492
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:11,080
Speaker 2: residence in New York State and the second largest private

1493
01:22:11,120 --> 01:22:12,879
Speaker 2: residents in the United States.

1494
01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:14,440
Speaker 3: Tremendous.

1495
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:18,360
Speaker 2: The Biltmore, the Vanderbilt family estate in Asheville, North Carolina,

1496
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:21,840
Speaker 2: is still the largest. That's the house I think they

1497
01:22:21,920 --> 01:22:23,559
Speaker 2: use for exteriors in Richie Rich.

1498
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:25,680
Speaker 3: I want to say, Oh man, we got to get

1499
01:22:25,720 --> 01:22:27,320
Speaker 3: that out of the hands of the South. Come on,

1500
01:22:27,400 --> 01:22:29,479
Speaker 3: what are these northern architects doing?

1501
01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:34,840
Speaker 2: As originally configured, the hall Ojeka Castle, supposedly built on

1502
01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:38,160
Speaker 2: the highest point on Long Island, I might add, consisted

1503
01:22:38,200 --> 01:22:41,720
Speaker 2: of one hundred and twenty seven rooms over its one

1504
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:46,800
Speaker 2: hundred and nine thousand square foot floor plant. The name

1505
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:49,560
Speaker 2: O'heka is an acronym using the first several letters of

1506
01:22:49,680 --> 01:22:53,680
Speaker 2: each part of its creator's name, Otto Herman Khan, who

1507
01:22:53,760 --> 01:22:56,760
Speaker 2: commissioned the grounds to be designed by the almost dead

1508
01:22:56,880 --> 01:23:02,479
Speaker 2: Brothers aka the guys who did Central Park. I can

1509
01:23:02,560 --> 01:23:04,599
Speaker 2: only imagine that this guy was a real life cigar

1510
01:23:04,680 --> 01:23:08,120
Speaker 2: shopping executive. Long care give me the guys who did

1511
01:23:08,240 --> 01:23:08,840
Speaker 2: Central Park.

1512
01:23:09,240 --> 01:23:15,639
Speaker 3: I can't imagine. Yeah, Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ Man.

1513
01:23:15,840 --> 01:23:19,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, today. As you may have guessed, it's a boutique

1514
01:23:19,479 --> 01:23:23,400
Speaker 2: hotel that has hosted weddings for Kevin Jonas, Megan Kelly,

1515
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:27,000
Speaker 2: Joey Fatone, Brian McKnight. Three of those people are the

1516
01:23:27,080 --> 01:23:29,240
Speaker 2: less good members of boy bands. I have to add

1517
01:23:29,880 --> 01:23:37,559
Speaker 2: and disgraced US Congressman Anthony Wiener. Boy some sports guy

1518
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:40,040
Speaker 2: died today. I think he's associated with the Yankees and

1519
01:23:40,080 --> 01:23:43,080
Speaker 2: his name is Seymour Wiener. Yeah, it's easy. I know.

1520
01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:44,400
Speaker 2: I take no joy in that.

1521
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:48,559
Speaker 3: I know what a place to like. You know, you

1522
01:23:48,600 --> 01:23:50,920
Speaker 3: get in that guest list, you better start looking looking

1523
01:23:50,960 --> 01:23:55,040
Speaker 3: into C four because you are wasting an opportunity.

1524
01:23:56,160 --> 01:24:00,400
Speaker 2: God, you'd be remembered for years. This castle, though it

1525
01:24:00,439 --> 01:24:02,400
Speaker 2: is an illustrious pop culture history.

1526
01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:05,280
Speaker 3: What do you think their security was like for a

1527
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:09,280
Speaker 3: or oh for the Oh yeah, they're frisking you, right,

1528
01:24:09,640 --> 01:24:13,120
Speaker 3: frisking probably. But if I was wearing a fat suit

1529
01:24:13,160 --> 01:24:15,040
Speaker 3: that had like a C four vest under.

1530
01:24:14,800 --> 01:24:18,720
Speaker 2: It, that's plastic explosives, that doesn't show up on right, yeah,

1531
01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:21,559
Speaker 2: on metal detector because it's plastic or like yeah, or

1532
01:24:21,600 --> 01:24:24,480
Speaker 2: like a porcelain knife. And then you just get closer.

1533
01:24:24,160 --> 01:24:26,200
Speaker 3: Then because then you can only then you can only

1534
01:24:26,200 --> 01:24:28,599
Speaker 3: take out one, which is why I'm still advocating for them,

1535
01:24:28,600 --> 01:24:31,840
Speaker 3: because there's no way every everybody at a Jonas Brother

1536
01:24:31,880 --> 01:24:35,160
Speaker 3: wedding is a good person. So I'm really comfortable breaking

1537
01:24:35,200 --> 01:24:35,920
Speaker 3: a few eggs there.

1538
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:39,960
Speaker 2: Porcelain knife, I'm not familiar.

1539
01:24:40,040 --> 01:24:42,760
Speaker 3: Or plastic three D prinip plastic knife, dude. They make

1540
01:24:42,880 --> 01:24:46,000
Speaker 3: fun knives out of toothbrushes and jail right knives aren't hard,

1541
01:24:46,040 --> 01:24:46,320
Speaker 3: but the.

1542
01:24:46,280 --> 01:24:48,880
Speaker 2: Problem is you only get one shot, and even then you.

1543
01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:50,519
Speaker 3: Can't even be sure because if someone pulls you off,

1544
01:24:50,560 --> 01:24:53,880
Speaker 3: they get pressure on the wound. Yeah, I'm reminded of

1545
01:24:55,439 --> 01:24:59,400
Speaker 3: So there's an interview with Christopher Lee where he's talking

1546
01:24:59,400 --> 01:25:02,000
Speaker 3: about his experiences in the in the Oss, in the

1547
01:25:02,040 --> 01:25:04,839
Speaker 3: in the British in the British Oss, and counter intelligence

1548
01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:10,599
Speaker 3: during the Wars, and he was saying that the best

1549
01:25:10,760 --> 01:25:13,240
Speaker 3: you don't actually slit throats. The best thing to do

1550
01:25:13,360 --> 01:25:16,200
Speaker 3: is if you're coming up from someone behind, you push

1551
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:19,560
Speaker 3: the knife in at the neck and then push outwards,

1552
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:23,000
Speaker 3: because then it's not even like a suturable wound. He

1553
01:25:23,080 --> 01:25:27,360
Speaker 3: also was an invaluable consultant in the in The Lord

1554
01:25:27,360 --> 01:25:30,519
Speaker 3: of the Rings because in the script, Peter Jackson had

1555
01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:36,240
Speaker 3: written that the character of Grima Warrington gets stabbed from

1556
01:25:36,240 --> 01:25:40,280
Speaker 3: behind and inhales, and Christopher Lee corrected him, speaking from

1557
01:25:40,280 --> 01:25:43,080
Speaker 3: his vast experience, saying that when you stab someone, they

1558
01:25:43,120 --> 01:25:48,040
Speaker 3: actually expel air because it's being driven from their lungs.

1559
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:50,880
Speaker 3: Just saying, in case anyone gets invited to like a

1560
01:25:51,040 --> 01:25:54,880
Speaker 3: fortune five hundred CEO wedding, where were.

1561
01:25:54,720 --> 01:25:59,240
Speaker 2: We, well this house, I wouldn't want to use explosives

1562
01:25:59,280 --> 01:26:02,040
Speaker 2: because it does do us have a very large place

1563
01:26:02,120 --> 01:26:04,880
Speaker 2: in popular culture, and so I would like to preserve

1564
01:26:04,920 --> 01:26:08,760
Speaker 2: it if at all possible. In addition to inspiring Gatsby's home,

1565
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:11,360
Speaker 2: photos of the mansion were used to portray the fictional

1566
01:26:11,479 --> 01:26:15,600
Speaker 2: Xanadu in Citizen Kane. It was also the site of

1567
01:26:15,640 --> 01:26:19,000
Speaker 2: the infamous bore on the floor scene in the HBO

1568
01:26:19,120 --> 01:26:22,519
Speaker 2: dramedy Succession, and it was the filming location for Taylor

1569
01:26:22,560 --> 01:26:28,360
Speaker 2: Swift's twenty fourteen music video for blank Space, Blank Space,

1570
01:26:29,479 --> 01:26:33,040
Speaker 2: I'm leaving that one alone. You want to live, you

1571
01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:35,519
Speaker 2: don't want, you don't want boxes tracks.

1572
01:26:35,640 --> 01:26:38,800
Speaker 3: I will gladly call for the general assassination of the

1573
01:26:38,880 --> 01:26:41,599
Speaker 3: wealthiest people in this country. But one person I will

1574
01:26:41,600 --> 01:26:45,800
Speaker 3: not touch, yes, is tannaf swift I'm not scared of

1575
01:26:45,840 --> 01:26:48,160
Speaker 3: the FBI, but I am scared of Swifties.

1576
01:26:49,600 --> 01:26:52,840
Speaker 2: Some let scholars also believe that Scott was inspired by

1577
01:26:52,920 --> 01:26:57,080
Speaker 2: Beacon Towers, a one hundred and forty room mansion that

1578
01:26:57,240 --> 01:27:01,960
Speaker 2: was owned by the real life citizen Kane William Randolph Hernhirst. Tragically,

1579
01:27:02,080 --> 01:27:05,200
Speaker 2: it was torn down in nineteen forty five. In fact,

1580
01:27:05,200 --> 01:27:07,559
Speaker 2: most of these Gold Coast mansions didn't survive the Great

1581
01:27:07,560 --> 01:27:12,040
Speaker 2: Depression good It was also a story that Scott was

1582
01:27:12,080 --> 01:27:15,920
Speaker 2: inspired by a twenty one thousand square foot house, a

1583
01:27:16,000 --> 01:27:19,479
Speaker 2: cottage really a bungalow on Land's End that would play

1584
01:27:19,479 --> 01:27:24,680
Speaker 2: host to people like Churchill and Einstein before falling into disrepair. Condemned,

1585
01:27:25,080 --> 01:27:28,280
Speaker 2: it was torn down in twenty eleven amid great protest

1586
01:27:28,360 --> 01:27:33,920
Speaker 2: from preservationist organizations. It's likely that the parties there inspired Scott,

1587
01:27:33,920 --> 01:27:37,040
Speaker 2: but he was thinking of impressive other homes when describing

1588
01:27:37,120 --> 01:27:40,759
Speaker 2: Jay's house. Uh, I'm glad you left me with this section.

1589
01:27:40,840 --> 01:27:44,760
Speaker 2: The Jewish gangster. We touched on him earlier, But let's

1590
01:27:44,760 --> 01:27:48,120
Speaker 2: talk more about the source of Jay Gatsby's wealth, specifically

1591
01:27:48,120 --> 01:27:55,320
Speaker 2: the bootlegger meyer Wolf Weinstein. Oh what Meyer Wolfshein? Meyer

1592
01:27:55,720 --> 01:27:59,960
Speaker 2: Wolfshine but that's not really and that's the character's name.

1593
01:28:00,520 --> 01:28:03,719
Speaker 3: Oh okay, yeah, because Meyer Lanski is like the real

1594
01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:04,839
Speaker 3: Jewish Kingpin.

1595
01:28:05,760 --> 01:28:08,120
Speaker 2: He's an album like a Scott does slot. He's an

1596
01:28:08,120 --> 01:28:10,760
Speaker 2: amalgam Meer Wolfsheim.

1597
01:28:10,320 --> 01:28:13,679
Speaker 3: Yes of people in places directly in his field of vision.

1598
01:28:13,920 --> 01:28:17,320
Speaker 2: Meier Wolfsheim was portrayed as a mentor and friend of Gatsby's,

1599
01:28:17,560 --> 01:28:19,439
Speaker 2: and he was based, as we mentioned earlier, on the

1600
01:28:19,479 --> 01:28:24,000
Speaker 2: gambling gangster Arnold Rothstein, the man responsible for the nineteen

1601
01:28:24,080 --> 01:28:27,679
Speaker 2: nineteen World Series scandal, when multiple members of the Chicago

1602
01:28:27,680 --> 01:28:31,000
Speaker 2: White Sox threw the game after being paid off by Rothstein.

1603
01:28:31,960 --> 01:28:34,560
Speaker 2: In The Great Gatsby, some of the remarks that Wolfsheim

1604
01:28:34,600 --> 01:28:37,400
Speaker 2: helped fix the World Series, which really makes it obvious

1605
01:28:37,400 --> 01:28:42,600
Speaker 2: who they're referring. Wolfsheim is appropriately a shadowy figure in

1606
01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:46,360
Speaker 2: the novel. He appears only twice, the second time refusing

1607
01:28:46,400 --> 01:28:49,800
Speaker 2: to attend Gatsby's funeral. Much has been made in recent

1608
01:28:49,880 --> 01:28:53,280
Speaker 2: years of Scott's description of Wolsheim as quote, a small,

1609
01:28:53,360 --> 01:28:57,240
Speaker 2: flat nosed jew with tiny eyes and two fine growths

1610
01:28:57,240 --> 01:28:58,640
Speaker 2: of hair in his nostrils.

1611
01:28:58,840 --> 01:29:03,160
Speaker 3: That's just unnecessary, Yeah, yeah, especially if Scott you only

1612
01:29:03,160 --> 01:29:05,000
Speaker 3: met him twice, right, like you you can't.

1613
01:29:05,160 --> 01:29:07,439
Speaker 2: Oh no, he appears twice in the book.

1614
01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:09,759
Speaker 3: No, well, he only writes about things that are directly

1615
01:29:09,800 --> 01:29:12,240
Speaker 3: in front of him, like a child with no object permanence.

1616
01:29:13,760 --> 01:29:16,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, Scott really zooms in on Wolfsheim's nose. He describes

1617
01:29:16,520 --> 01:29:23,720
Speaker 2: it variously as expressive, tragic, and able to flash indignantly. Interestingly,

1618
01:29:23,840 --> 01:29:27,720
Speaker 2: this Jewish gangster works at the swastika holding company in

1619
01:29:27,800 --> 01:29:32,800
Speaker 2: the book Are you kidding me? No? That's interesting, is it?

1620
01:29:32,960 --> 01:29:35,360
Speaker 3: Or just rabidly anti Semitic?

1621
01:29:35,560 --> 01:29:37,000
Speaker 2: This was long before Hitler.

1622
01:29:37,080 --> 01:29:41,320
Speaker 3: Anti Semitism pre pre existed before Hitler. He didn't invent

1623
01:29:41,439 --> 01:29:42,320
Speaker 3: anti Semetis.

1624
01:29:42,479 --> 01:29:45,200
Speaker 2: Swatstika wasn't seen as an anti Semitic symbol until it

1625
01:29:45,240 --> 01:29:47,639
Speaker 2: was embraced a by the Nazis and the I mean

1626
01:29:48,320 --> 01:29:51,920
Speaker 2: that is true. It was an old Buddhist symbol, wasn't it.

1627
01:29:52,040 --> 01:29:53,840
Speaker 3: I don't know, but I don't know where the edem. Yeah,

1628
01:29:53,880 --> 01:29:57,280
Speaker 3: but it obviously wasn't called the schwastika that was in

1629
01:29:57,320 --> 01:30:00,720
Speaker 3: the Tibet. That's a German word, swat. That's the you're

1630
01:30:00,760 --> 01:30:05,000
Speaker 3: just pronouncing it like German schwashka. In Hinduism, the right

1631
01:30:05,000 --> 01:30:07,760
Speaker 3: facing symbols called swatstika symbolizing the sun.

1632
01:30:08,240 --> 01:30:11,320
Speaker 2: Okay, prosperity and good luck. Well, the left facing symbols

1633
01:30:11,360 --> 01:30:18,080
Speaker 2: called savatstika symbolizing knight or tantric aspects of Kali. No,

1634
01:30:18,320 --> 01:30:22,600
Speaker 2: it's a Hindu term. Okay, fine, but the nose stuff.

1635
01:30:22,520 --> 01:30:24,960
Speaker 3: No stuff is bad. Okay, we'll fight you in the

1636
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:27,360
Speaker 3: nose stuff. All right, great, thank you for working with

1637
01:30:27,400 --> 01:30:30,040
Speaker 3: me on this one. We solved anti semitism.

1638
01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:34,960
Speaker 2: However, it was fairly standard for Lost Generation works to

1639
01:30:35,040 --> 01:30:39,800
Speaker 2: contain anti Semitic stereotypes describing Jewish individuals as corrupt and

1640
01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:43,759
Speaker 2: or pathetic. For example, In the Sun Also Rises, Ernest

1641
01:30:43,800 --> 01:30:47,040
Speaker 2: Hemingway vented many of his own anti Semitic feelings in

1642
01:30:47,120 --> 01:30:51,360
Speaker 2: the character Robert Kohane. Yeah I did, Yeah I did.

1643
01:30:52,080 --> 01:30:55,240
Speaker 2: In a nineteen forty seven article for Commentary, the scholar

1644
01:30:55,320 --> 01:30:58,519
Speaker 2: Milton Hindus and assistant professor of human.

1645
01:31:00,280 --> 01:31:11,839
Speaker 3: Wait for it, the DWS Where's Your Family From?

1646
01:31:11,960 --> 01:31:15,040
Speaker 2: And assistant professor of Humanities at the University of Chicago

1647
01:31:15,640 --> 01:31:18,880
Speaker 2: observed that Wolfsheim is the most abrasive character of the book,

1648
01:31:19,040 --> 01:31:22,040
Speaker 2: allowing that his characterization displays more than a hint of

1649
01:31:22,080 --> 01:31:27,080
Speaker 2: anti Semitism. However, Hindus argue that Jewish stereotypes displayed by

1650
01:31:27,120 --> 01:31:29,920
Speaker 2: Wolfsheim were typical of the time when the novel was written,

1651
01:31:30,400 --> 01:31:36,800
Speaker 2: and that it's anti semitism was of the quote habitual, customary, harmless,

1652
01:31:37,080 --> 01:31:39,920
Speaker 2: unpolitical variety, a.

1653
01:31:39,960 --> 01:31:40,639
Speaker 3: Lot to unpack.

1654
01:31:40,720 --> 01:31:44,679
Speaker 2: There. A twenty fifteen article by essayist Arthur Crystal agreed

1655
01:31:44,680 --> 01:31:48,439
Speaker 2: with Hindu's assessment that Fitzgerald's use of Jewish caricatures was

1656
01:31:48,479 --> 01:31:51,719
Speaker 2: not driven by malice and merely reflected the commonly held

1657
01:31:51,760 --> 01:31:55,200
Speaker 2: beliefs at the time. He notes the accounts of Francis Kroll,

1658
01:31:55,280 --> 01:31:59,120
Speaker 2: Fitzgerald's Jewish secretary, who claimed that Fitzgerald was hurt by

1659
01:31:59,120 --> 01:32:02,559
Speaker 2: accusations of ante di Semitism and responded to critiques of

1660
01:32:02,560 --> 01:32:06,160
Speaker 2: Wolfshein by claiming that he merely quote fulfill the function

1661
01:32:06,240 --> 01:32:08,880
Speaker 2: and the story and had nothing to do with race

1662
01:32:09,000 --> 01:32:09,600
Speaker 2: or religion.

1663
01:32:10,160 --> 01:32:14,639
Speaker 3: Okay, man, Yes, I guess I'll buy that. So other

1664
01:32:14,720 --> 01:32:21,040
Speaker 3: Daisy's Daisy's move Potent Potables. Daisy Gatsby's lost love is

1665
01:32:21,080 --> 01:32:24,720
Speaker 3: a wealthy socialite from Louisville, Kentucky, or as they call it.

1666
01:32:24,840 --> 01:32:28,400
Speaker 3: And they will immediately spot you on this Louville. She

1667
01:32:28,479 --> 01:32:31,040
Speaker 3: resides in the fashionable old money town of East Egg

1668
01:32:31,120 --> 01:32:33,920
Speaker 3: on Long Island, and is married to the British Tom Buchanan,

1669
01:32:33,960 --> 01:32:37,040
Speaker 3: an avid polo player. He goes without saying that Daisy

1670
01:32:37,080 --> 01:32:40,360
Speaker 3: is based on Scott's relationship with Guynevra and her rejection

1671
01:32:40,439 --> 01:32:42,960
Speaker 3: with him in favor of the financially secure life provided

1672
01:32:42,960 --> 01:32:47,040
Speaker 3: by Bill Mitchell, the polo player and fossil fuel magnate

1673
01:32:47,640 --> 01:32:51,840
Speaker 3: m I know. To Scott, Guyneva became the prototype of

1674
01:32:51,880 --> 01:32:55,960
Speaker 3: the unobtainable upper class woman who embodies the elusive American dream.

1675
01:32:56,520 --> 01:33:00,200
Speaker 3: Fitzgerald scholar Marine Corrigan notes that King, far more so

1676
01:33:00,200 --> 01:33:03,040
Speaker 3: then the author's wife, Zelda, became quote the love who

1677
01:33:03,120 --> 01:33:07,640
Speaker 3: lodged like an irritant in Fitzgerald's imagination, producing the literary

1678
01:33:07,720 --> 01:33:13,040
Speaker 3: pearl that is Daisy Buchanan. Sure man, Yeah, okay man.

1679
01:33:14,160 --> 01:33:17,320
Speaker 3: Scott himself would describe guyn Nevra as my first girl,

1680
01:33:17,360 --> 01:33:20,720
Speaker 3: who I've used over and over in my writing and

1681
01:33:20,800 --> 01:33:23,799
Speaker 3: never forgotten. We'll get to this in our part two episode,

1682
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:26,880
Speaker 3: but Scott and Guyneverra reconnected. Later in life, she had

1683
01:33:26,960 --> 01:33:30,280
Speaker 3: separated from her philandering husband, and Scott's wife, Zelda, was

1684
01:33:30,320 --> 01:33:32,960
Speaker 3: in a psychiatric hospital, providing an opportune time for the

1685
01:33:33,680 --> 01:33:36,920
Speaker 3: two star Cross lovers to get back together. However, their

1686
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:41,200
Speaker 3: reunion proved to be a disaster to Fitzgerald's worsening alcoholism

1687
01:33:41,280 --> 01:33:44,600
Speaker 3: or perhaps at this point, terminal alcoholism. Yeah, and a

1688
01:33:44,720 --> 01:33:48,519
Speaker 3: disappointed genevra King returned to Chicago.

1689
01:33:48,840 --> 01:33:50,400
Speaker 2: The saddest part of the whole story is that I

1690
01:33:50,439 --> 01:33:52,559
Speaker 2: guess he'd been on the wagon for like eight months

1691
01:33:52,600 --> 01:33:56,160
Speaker 2: and he was so like destabilized by that meeting that

1692
01:33:56,320 --> 01:33:58,240
Speaker 2: like that was why he drank. He was just so

1693
01:33:58,320 --> 01:34:02,559
Speaker 2: nervous about meeting her again. And yeah, very sad, very

1694
01:34:02,640 --> 01:34:03,120
Speaker 2: very sad.

1695
01:34:03,360 --> 01:34:06,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm back to hating her. Jordan, you've been drawn

1696
01:34:06,479 --> 01:34:09,280
Speaker 3: to a certain characterization of Daisy.

1697
01:34:09,320 --> 01:34:12,000
Speaker 2: Did share that with us? I always love this passage.

1698
01:34:12,360 --> 01:34:15,879
Speaker 2: It's a discussion between Gatsby and the book's narrator, Nick Carraway,

1699
01:34:16,080 --> 01:34:18,120
Speaker 2: who she probably should have touched on this earlier. The

1700
01:34:18,240 --> 01:34:21,400
Speaker 2: entire novels told from the point of view of a

1701
01:34:21,439 --> 01:34:25,000
Speaker 2: young man who settles for the summer in a bungalow

1702
01:34:25,240 --> 01:34:28,960
Speaker 2: next door to Gatsby's massive mansion, and so it's all told.

1703
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:31,160
Speaker 2: He's sort of like the every man who's witnessing this

1704
01:34:31,360 --> 01:34:35,320
Speaker 2: entire story, and so he's very much the voice of reason.

1705
01:34:36,280 --> 01:34:39,080
Speaker 2: So when I read this, he's the narrator. She's got

1706
01:34:39,080 --> 01:34:43,480
Speaker 2: an indiscreet voice. I remarked, it's full of I hesitated.

1707
01:34:43,920 --> 01:34:47,640
Speaker 2: Her voice is full of money. Jay suddenly said, that

1708
01:34:47,800 --> 01:34:50,960
Speaker 2: was it. I'd never understood it before. It was full

1709
01:34:51,000 --> 01:34:54,439
Speaker 2: of money. That was the inexhaustible charm that rose and

1710
01:34:54,479 --> 01:34:57,680
Speaker 2: fell in it. The jingle of it symbols song of it,

1711
01:34:58,280 --> 01:35:01,759
Speaker 2: high in the White Palace, the King's Daughter, the Golden Girl.

1712
01:35:02,400 --> 01:35:05,719
Speaker 3: So to a much lesser extent, Scott's wife, Zelda, also

1713
01:35:05,720 --> 01:35:08,639
Speaker 3: provided an inspiration. Partially it was due to her initial

1714
01:35:08,640 --> 01:35:11,479
Speaker 3: rejection of him until he became a published author, but

1715
01:35:11,560 --> 01:35:14,599
Speaker 3: she also supposedly uttered Daisy's famous line about her daughter,

1716
01:35:14,960 --> 01:35:18,639
Speaker 3: hoping that she's quote beautiful and a fool, A beautiful

1717
01:35:18,640 --> 01:35:21,080
Speaker 3: little fool. That's the best thing a girl can be

1718
01:35:21,120 --> 01:35:23,880
Speaker 3: in this world. How do you feel about that? That's

1719
01:35:23,880 --> 01:35:26,160
Speaker 3: a very famous line from this. I know I did

1720
01:35:26,320 --> 01:35:31,200
Speaker 3: know that line. Actually, Well, it says more about Zelda

1721
01:35:31,240 --> 01:35:32,280
Speaker 3: than does anything else.

1722
01:35:32,439 --> 01:35:36,479
Speaker 2: Well, Well, let's read on, does it. Yeah, no, it

1723
01:35:36,520 --> 01:35:39,080
Speaker 2: gets a little bit because she apparently said that when

1724
01:35:39,120 --> 01:35:42,640
Speaker 2: she was like supremely doped up on anesthetics when she

1725
01:35:42,680 --> 01:35:45,160
Speaker 2: was giving birth to their daughter, and it was just

1726
01:35:45,560 --> 01:35:50,519
Speaker 2: like in a line of rambling non SEQUITURSA read her

1727
01:35:50,520 --> 01:35:52,519
Speaker 2: full quote, it's great.

1728
01:35:52,360 --> 01:35:57,400
Speaker 3: Oh God, goof o, I'm drunk, Mark Twain. Isn't she smart?

1729
01:35:57,640 --> 01:36:01,400
Speaker 3: She has the hiccups. I hope it beautiful and a fool,

1730
01:36:01,640 --> 01:36:04,920
Speaker 3: a beautiful little fool. And then Scott added the additional

1731
01:36:04,960 --> 01:36:07,000
Speaker 3: observation of that's the best thing a girl can be

1732
01:36:07,040 --> 01:36:11,160
Speaker 3: in this world. Just a terrible period, all of these people.

1733
01:36:11,240 --> 01:36:13,439
Speaker 2: I think he took her gibberish that was from like

1734
01:36:13,479 --> 01:36:17,040
Speaker 2: all the anesthesia, and took a little bit out of

1735
01:36:17,080 --> 01:36:20,160
Speaker 2: context and then gave it that extra line about that's

1736
01:36:20,160 --> 01:36:21,720
Speaker 2: the best thing a girl in the world could be

1737
01:36:22,120 --> 01:36:22,320
Speaker 2: to give.

1738
01:36:22,680 --> 01:36:25,760
Speaker 3: So I understood, Okay, that's a thing to say about

1739
01:36:25,800 --> 01:36:27,439
Speaker 3: your daughter. Sure right.

1740
01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:29,519
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not his daughter in this book, it's

1741
01:36:29,640 --> 01:36:30,400
Speaker 2: Daisy's daughter.

1742
01:36:33,320 --> 01:36:36,360
Speaker 3: Holding the gun really gives you a sense of disconnect

1743
01:36:36,360 --> 01:36:38,360
Speaker 3: from the person you're shooting at. It's almost not like

1744
01:36:38,360 --> 01:36:39,200
Speaker 3: it's a real murder.

1745
01:36:40,920 --> 01:36:41,520
Speaker 2: Okay.

1746
01:36:41,680 --> 01:36:43,719
Speaker 3: It's important to note that more than just an indictment

1747
01:36:43,760 --> 01:36:47,080
Speaker 3: of the American dream, The Great Gatsby also explores and

1748
01:36:47,240 --> 01:36:51,960
Speaker 3: critiques question Mark societal expectations of gender norms in the

1749
01:36:52,080 --> 01:36:56,639
Speaker 3: so called jazz age. That's jazz baby, that's jazz baby.

1750
01:36:57,960 --> 01:37:02,160
Speaker 3: Anti Semitism, that's jazz. Yes, the gilded Lives is a

1751
01:37:02,320 --> 01:37:06,000
Speaker 3: rich that's jazz baby. Take it from me, a white

1752
01:37:06,040 --> 01:37:11,759
Speaker 3: guy from the Northeast jazz. So with that in mind,

1753
01:37:11,840 --> 01:37:14,439
Speaker 3: let's delve into a little section called two cis het

1754
01:37:14,479 --> 01:37:16,240
Speaker 3: white men explain what it was like to be a

1755
01:37:16,280 --> 01:37:20,640
Speaker 3: woman one hundred years ago. There's a lot wrapped up

1756
01:37:20,640 --> 01:37:25,599
Speaker 3: in the character of Daisy, we say broadly. A century

1757
01:37:25,600 --> 01:37:28,160
Speaker 3: after her debut, she's still one of the most polarizing

1758
01:37:28,160 --> 01:37:33,000
Speaker 3: female characters in the literature of this Grand American experiment.

1759
01:37:33,520 --> 01:37:35,280
Speaker 3: For many years, she was viewed as one of the

1760
01:37:35,280 --> 01:37:39,560
Speaker 3: great villains of literary history, whose actions directly or indirectly

1761
01:37:39,800 --> 01:37:43,559
Speaker 3: caused the death of three people. An early review described

1762
01:37:43,600 --> 01:37:48,280
Speaker 3: her as a monster of bitchery. That's pretty cool, Yeah

1763
01:37:48,280 --> 01:37:53,040
Speaker 3: it is. That's what I call gravedigger baby. Anyway, getting

1764
01:37:53,040 --> 01:37:55,879
Speaker 3: back to Daisy, this view continued into the forties and fifties,

1765
01:37:55,920 --> 01:37:59,719
Speaker 3: also periods lauded for their progressive attitudes towards women. Critic

1766
01:38:00,120 --> 01:38:04,320
Speaker 3: Arrius beuley Man has weak wrists. I just know it

1767
01:38:04,720 --> 01:38:09,559
Speaker 3: commented on the character's vicious emptiness, while Robert Ornstein described

1768
01:38:09,560 --> 01:38:13,320
Speaker 3: her as criminally immoral, Alfred Kazin judged her to be

1769
01:38:13,439 --> 01:38:16,720
Speaker 3: vulgar and inhuman, and Leslie Fieldler regarded her as a

1770
01:38:16,840 --> 01:38:22,719
Speaker 3: dark destroyer, purveying quote corruption and death damn well women.

1771
01:38:24,400 --> 01:38:27,000
Speaker 3: They framed Gatsby as an instant victim and Daisy as

1772
01:38:27,200 --> 01:38:29,839
Speaker 3: foul dust that floated in the wake of his dreams.

1773
01:38:29,920 --> 01:38:31,040
Speaker 2: Foul dust.

1774
01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:33,840
Speaker 3: Even in the post women's lib era of the late

1775
01:38:33,920 --> 01:38:37,640
Speaker 3: nineteen seventies, critic Rose Gallo described Daisy as a vacuous

1776
01:38:37,680 --> 01:38:42,160
Speaker 3: creature whose beauty conceals her spiritual bankruptcy. But contemporary critics

1777
01:38:42,160 --> 01:38:44,719
Speaker 3: and scholars view her much more sympathetically as a victim

1778
01:38:44,760 --> 01:38:48,080
Speaker 3: of rather than a victimizer. A surface level read of

1779
01:38:48,120 --> 01:38:51,640
Speaker 3: the character is that she personifies a flapper, or the

1780
01:38:51,640 --> 01:38:55,000
Speaker 3: then novel generation of women who bobbed their hair, wore

1781
01:38:55,280 --> 01:39:00,439
Speaker 3: short skirts or pants in some cases, drank and smoked,

1782
01:39:00,439 --> 01:39:04,280
Speaker 3: and they stood the top flagpole or sat across flagpoles

1783
01:39:04,320 --> 01:39:07,599
Speaker 3: for marathon periods of time, as immortalized in Harvey Danger's

1784
01:39:07,680 --> 01:39:10,200
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven hit Flagpole Sida.

1785
01:39:11,200 --> 01:39:15,120
Speaker 2: In other words, they were the err liberated woman.

1786
01:39:15,920 --> 01:39:19,120
Speaker 3: But despite these superficial freedoms, Fitzgerald illustrates the lack of

1787
01:39:19,160 --> 01:39:22,479
Speaker 3: agency that women had in this period. Daisy is subject

1788
01:39:22,479 --> 01:39:26,600
Speaker 3: to both her husband Tom's brutal domination and then Gatsby's

1789
01:39:26,640 --> 01:39:29,720
Speaker 3: objectification as the holy grail of his foolhardy quest to

1790
01:39:29,800 --> 01:39:32,519
Speaker 3: recast his own youth in the way he wished it

1791
01:39:32,640 --> 01:39:35,960
Speaker 3: could have been. The resulting power struggle between Tom and

1792
01:39:36,000 --> 01:39:38,559
Speaker 3: Gatsby turns Daisy into a little more than a trophy,

1793
01:39:39,040 --> 01:39:42,400
Speaker 3: a golden girl as fits, he writes, valued only for

1794
01:39:42,520 --> 01:39:45,519
Speaker 3: enhancing the social and economic status of whoever claims her.

1795
01:39:46,080 --> 01:39:48,200
Speaker 3: Writer Katie Baker observed in The Globe and Mail that

1796
01:39:48,200 --> 01:39:51,360
Speaker 3: although Daisy lives and Gatsby dies quote in the end,

1797
01:39:52,000 --> 01:39:54,600
Speaker 3: both Gatsby and Daisy have lost their youthful dreams, that

1798
01:39:54,720 --> 01:39:58,360
Speaker 3: sense of eternal possibility that made the summertime sweet and

1799
01:39:58,479 --> 01:40:00,760
Speaker 3: love her or hate her, there's something pity in that

1800
01:40:00,840 --> 01:40:05,600
Speaker 3: irrevocable fact. Writer Dave McGinn suggests that Daisy's side of

1801
01:40:05,600 --> 01:40:08,840
Speaker 3: the love triangle should be explored in another book, which

1802
01:40:09,200 --> 01:40:11,200
Speaker 3: that's a dumb fucking idea. Are you gonna do it?

1803
01:40:11,200 --> 01:40:13,639
Speaker 3: You're gonna write like the wicked of the Great Gatsby.

1804
01:40:13,720 --> 01:40:14,400
Speaker 3: What are you gonna call it?

1805
01:40:14,479 --> 01:40:16,120
Speaker 2: Just great? Shut up?

1806
01:40:16,200 --> 01:40:21,120
Speaker 3: Dave McGinn's people postulating like expanded universe fiction or the

1807
01:40:21,160 --> 01:40:24,280
Speaker 3: scum of the earth. Somebody did do that, Ibody good.

1808
01:40:24,920 --> 01:40:28,200
Speaker 3: Thanks Dave for sewing that idea. It's a stupid idea.

1809
01:40:29,720 --> 01:40:31,200
Speaker 2: God damn oh.

1810
01:40:31,280 --> 01:40:33,479
Speaker 3: Someone should make a prequel to The Great Gatsby we

1811
01:40:33,560 --> 01:40:36,559
Speaker 3: find out about Daisy, or a sequel to Great Gatsby too.

1812
01:40:36,800 --> 01:40:44,480
Speaker 3: Gats harder to Dave McGinn. In the end, Jordan postulates

1813
01:40:44,479 --> 01:40:47,000
Speaker 3: that most people's feelings aligned with those of Esther Bloom

1814
01:40:47,320 --> 01:40:52,680
Speaker 3: writing in The Hairpin Great website rip Alright. Writing in

1815
01:40:52,680 --> 01:40:57,400
Speaker 3: The Hairpinesther states that although Daisy is not the story's villain,

1816
01:40:57,800 --> 01:41:00,519
Speaker 3: she quote still sucks, and if it weren't her, a

1817
01:41:00,520 --> 01:41:02,320
Speaker 3: couple of key players in the book would be alive

1818
01:41:02,320 --> 01:41:05,240
Speaker 3: at the end of it. That's truly the most progressive

1819
01:41:05,280 --> 01:41:07,960
Speaker 3: thing you can do with characters in fiction or real people.

1820
01:41:08,880 --> 01:41:11,320
Speaker 3: You can have pity for them and you can understand them,

1821
01:41:12,000 --> 01:41:13,280
Speaker 3: but they can still suck.

1822
01:41:14,720 --> 01:41:17,720
Speaker 2: Another interesting snapshot of feminism in the nineteen twenties is

1823
01:41:17,800 --> 01:41:22,200
Speaker 2: Daisy's friend Jordan Baker, who casually dates narrator Nick Carraway

1824
01:41:22,240 --> 01:41:25,479
Speaker 2: throughout the book. As you mentioned earlier, her character was

1825
01:41:25,520 --> 01:41:28,639
Speaker 2: based on one of genevra King's good friends and fellow

1826
01:41:28,680 --> 01:41:33,680
Speaker 2: member of Chicago's Big Four Debs of nineteen fourteen, Edith Cummings.

1827
01:41:34,479 --> 01:41:38,400
Speaker 2: Like Jordan Baker, Edith was a famous amateur golfer, dubbed

1828
01:41:38,560 --> 01:41:43,880
Speaker 2: the Fairway Flapper in the press. That's amazing. She won

1829
01:41:43,920 --> 01:41:46,479
Speaker 2: the US Woman's Amateur in nineteen twenty four, the year

1830
01:41:46,479 --> 01:41:50,160
Speaker 2: before Gasby was published. Scott Fitzgerald named her character by

1831
01:41:50,160 --> 01:41:53,240
Speaker 2: combining the names of two popular car brands of the era,

1832
01:41:53,600 --> 01:41:57,000
Speaker 2: the Jordan Car Company and the Baker Motor Vehicle.

1833
01:41:56,720 --> 01:41:58,040
Speaker 3: Both of which no longer exist.

1834
01:41:59,040 --> 01:42:01,800
Speaker 2: Yes, the choice was meant to evoke the feeling of

1835
01:42:01,880 --> 01:42:05,080
Speaker 2: freedom and speed of the age. In other words, she's

1836
01:42:05,120 --> 01:42:09,840
Speaker 2: a fast girl. It was crazy about Elvis. It would

1837
01:42:09,840 --> 01:42:12,360
Speaker 2: be like naming a character Kia Kamaro today.

1838
01:42:12,640 --> 01:42:14,840
Speaker 3: Don't put ideas in Hollywood's head.

1839
01:42:14,960 --> 01:42:18,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jordan Baker is arguably the most liberated female character

1840
01:42:18,920 --> 01:42:22,840
Speaker 2: in The Great Gatsby. She's athletic, single, and, in the

1841
01:42:22,880 --> 01:42:27,160
Speaker 2: parlance of the times, dates around even so many people

1842
01:42:27,200 --> 01:42:29,720
Speaker 2: in this book voice their disapproval about the way she

1843
01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:33,519
Speaker 2: lives her life, including Daisy and her husband Tom. The

1844
01:42:33,600 --> 01:42:37,719
Speaker 2: scholar Sarah Churchwell writes in her book Careless People, Murder, Mayhem,

1845
01:42:37,800 --> 01:42:41,599
Speaker 2: and the Invention of the Great Gatsby, as with Gatsby

1846
01:42:41,680 --> 01:42:45,439
Speaker 2: and his dark path upward social mobility, the novel's charting

1847
01:42:45,439 --> 01:42:48,880
Speaker 2: a cultural moment that was anxious about women's new emancipation

1848
01:42:49,439 --> 01:42:52,760
Speaker 2: as much as it was celebrating it. Perhaps more than

1849
01:42:52,800 --> 01:42:56,040
Speaker 2: any other character in this book, Tom Buchanan represents a

1850
01:42:56,080 --> 01:43:00,280
Speaker 2: figure who suffers from status anxiety. If Gatsby worries about

1851
01:43:00,280 --> 01:43:03,400
Speaker 2: getting what he wants, Tom concerns himself with keeping it.

1852
01:43:04,200 --> 01:43:07,760
Speaker 2: He fears the changing views towards women, class, and also

1853
01:43:07,800 --> 01:43:11,440
Speaker 2: what it meant to be an American quiet part loud

1854
01:43:12,000 --> 01:43:18,479
Speaker 2: he was right is terrifyingly relevant today. Yeah. True. The

1855
01:43:18,600 --> 01:43:21,360
Speaker 2: United States in the nineteen twenties was experiencing an influx

1856
01:43:21,360 --> 01:43:24,200
Speaker 2: of immigrants from Europe and beyond, which struck fear in

1857
01:43:24,240 --> 01:43:29,000
Speaker 2: the hearts of what I'll generally referred to as those

1858
01:43:29,040 --> 01:43:32,479
Speaker 2: who were already here but whose ancestors had made a

1859
01:43:32,520 --> 01:43:38,200
Speaker 2: similar trip white people, sure oh Man. For many Americans,

1860
01:43:38,360 --> 01:43:41,080
Speaker 2: this otherness challenged their sense of what it meant to

1861
01:43:41,120 --> 01:43:46,280
Speaker 2: be a quote. Real American literary theorist Walter ben Michaels

1862
01:43:46,280 --> 01:43:49,080
Speaker 2: contends that this question was more prevalent in the national

1863
01:43:49,120 --> 01:43:53,000
Speaker 2: discourse than the consequences of World War One, which had

1864
01:43:53,040 --> 01:43:53,920
Speaker 2: recently ended.

1865
01:43:54,240 --> 01:43:57,120
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, if you argue that that wave

1866
01:43:57,160 --> 01:44:03,440
Speaker 3: of that wave of immigration provoked probably the first national

1867
01:44:03,760 --> 01:44:08,479
Speaker 3: immigrant crisis, yeah, and then that then put in motion

1868
01:44:09,640 --> 01:44:16,000
Speaker 3: the slow assimilation of the Irish, Germans and Italians into

1869
01:44:16,040 --> 01:44:21,479
Speaker 3: becoming American white, and therefore accelerated all of those groups

1870
01:44:21,640 --> 01:44:27,360
Speaker 3: racism against black people and brown people, then yeah, I

1871
01:44:27,400 --> 01:44:30,960
Speaker 3: would argue it is probably up there with World War One,

1872
01:44:31,040 --> 01:44:33,960
Speaker 3: because that's the thing. There's this great book called called

1873
01:44:34,000 --> 01:44:36,880
Speaker 3: Beyond the Melting Pot, and it's just examining this whole

1874
01:44:38,880 --> 01:44:41,479
Speaker 3: old But it was an academic book came out of MIT,

1875
01:44:41,680 --> 01:44:43,720
Speaker 3: I think, and it just has this it's the snapshots

1876
01:44:43,720 --> 01:44:47,559
Speaker 3: of Jewish, Puerto Rican and Italian life in New York

1877
01:44:47,600 --> 01:44:52,320
Speaker 3: City in the forties, fifties, and sixties. But the whole

1878
01:44:52,320 --> 01:44:54,920
Speaker 3: theme of it is just like, yeah, man, as soon

1879
01:44:54,960 --> 01:44:57,439
Speaker 3: as they stopped printing racist cartoons about you and you

1880
01:44:57,479 --> 01:45:01,000
Speaker 3: get to officially become white, every one of those groups

1881
01:45:01,040 --> 01:45:03,080
Speaker 3: just starts turning around and looking for the next person

1882
01:45:03,120 --> 01:45:05,719
Speaker 3: they can bully tale as old as time.

1883
01:45:07,160 --> 01:45:10,439
Speaker 2: The character of Tom Buchanan touches on this paranoia when

1884
01:45:10,439 --> 01:45:13,240
Speaker 2: he claims that he, the character Nick Carraway, and the

1885
01:45:13,320 --> 01:45:19,519
Speaker 2: character Jordan Baker are racially superior Nordics yep. Within the book,

1886
01:45:19,600 --> 01:45:22,519
Speaker 2: Tom's reading a fictitious book called The Rise of the

1887
01:45:22,520 --> 01:45:26,519
Speaker 2: Colored Empires, Oh, which is Scott Fitzgerald's parody of a

1888
01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:30,760
Speaker 2: book by Lothrup Stoddard, The Rising Tide of Color, which

1889
01:45:30,800 --> 01:45:34,200
Speaker 2: was a bestseller in the nineteen twenties. In his book,

1890
01:45:34,320 --> 01:45:38,280
Speaker 2: Stoddard warned that immigration with alter America's racial composition and

1891
01:45:38,360 --> 01:45:42,840
Speaker 2: ultimately destroy the country. Tom parrots these beliefs by saying,

1892
01:45:43,200 --> 01:45:45,639
Speaker 2: the idea is, if we don't look out, the white

1893
01:45:45,720 --> 01:45:49,240
Speaker 2: race will be utterly submerged. It's all scientific stuff. It's

1894
01:45:49,240 --> 01:45:52,400
Speaker 2: been proved. It's up to us, who are the dominant race,

1895
01:45:52,479 --> 01:45:55,080
Speaker 2: to watch out, or these other races will have control

1896
01:45:55,160 --> 01:46:00,880
Speaker 2: of things. Yeah. Wow yeah. In addition to all this

1897
01:46:00,960 --> 01:46:04,040
Speaker 2: racial stuff, Tom also fears that his turf is being

1898
01:46:04,160 --> 01:46:07,360
Speaker 2: encroached upon by the Nuveau Rish and one of the

1899
01:46:07,360 --> 01:46:11,480
Speaker 2: supercharged methods of upward mobility in the nineteen twenties, is bootlegging.

1900
01:46:12,200 --> 01:46:15,400
Speaker 2: It's created this nightmarish scenario for old money folks, wherein

1901
01:46:15,560 --> 01:46:18,960
Speaker 2: gangsters and criminals are now equally rich and powerful in

1902
01:46:19,040 --> 01:46:22,559
Speaker 2: taking a position alongside them, leading to a general sense

1903
01:46:22,600 --> 01:46:26,880
Speaker 2: of there goes the neighborhood. The aforementioned Gatsby scholar Sarah

1904
01:46:26,960 --> 01:46:30,160
Speaker 2: Churchwell toldhistory dot com the whole plot of The Great

1905
01:46:30,160 --> 01:46:33,479
Speaker 2: Gatsby is really driven by Prohibition in an important way.

1906
01:46:34,040 --> 01:46:36,879
Speaker 2: The only way in which Jay Gatsby becomes wealthy overnight

1907
01:46:37,120 --> 01:46:40,479
Speaker 2: is because prohibition created a black market, allowing bootleggers like

1908
01:46:40,520 --> 01:46:43,800
Speaker 2: Gatsby and his partners to amass huge quantities of money

1909
01:46:43,800 --> 01:46:46,760
Speaker 2: in a short time. As their wealth grew, it broke

1910
01:46:46,840 --> 01:46:50,400
Speaker 2: down the traditional barriers of society. This in turn provoked

1911
01:46:50,439 --> 01:46:55,640
Speaker 2: anxiety among upper class plutocrats like Tom Buchanan. Chishwell continues,

1912
01:46:55,880 --> 01:46:58,600
Speaker 2: one of the many unintended consequences of prohibition was that

1913
01:46:58,640 --> 01:47:03,400
Speaker 2: it created this accelerat upward social mobility. Fitzgerald is reflecting

1914
01:47:03,400 --> 01:47:06,640
Speaker 2: a preoccupation at that time that there were these upstarts,

1915
01:47:06,680 --> 01:47:09,000
Speaker 2: as they would have been called, these nouveau rich people

1916
01:47:09,040 --> 01:47:11,960
Speaker 2: who came from dubious backgrounds and then suddenly had all

1917
01:47:11,960 --> 01:47:15,240
Speaker 2: this money that they were splashing around. Clash conflict was

1918
01:47:15,320 --> 01:47:17,599
Speaker 2: arguably at an all time high in the US, both

1919
01:47:17,600 --> 01:47:20,400
Speaker 2: between the new money and old money, and also just

1920
01:47:20,479 --> 01:47:23,840
Speaker 2: the standard rich and poor. Scott would later write that

1921
01:47:23,880 --> 01:47:26,479
Speaker 2: there were two kinds of rebellions, the fire of the

1922
01:47:26,520 --> 01:47:30,479
Speaker 2: revolutionary or the sullen resentment of the peasant. Hell yeah,

1923
01:47:30,720 --> 01:47:33,720
Speaker 2: and more than Gatsby himself. Scott illustrates this point with

1924
01:47:33,760 --> 01:47:37,360
Speaker 2: the character of Wilson, the gas station owner whose wife

1925
01:47:37,520 --> 01:47:45,880
Speaker 2: well Well sign, whose wife Myrtle, has an affair with

1926
01:47:46,000 --> 01:47:49,759
Speaker 2: Tom Buchanan and is then run down by Daisy driving

1927
01:47:49,840 --> 01:47:55,000
Speaker 2: Gatsby's car spoiler oh yeah, sorry, mistakenly believing that Gatsby

1928
01:47:55,080 --> 01:47:57,479
Speaker 2: was behind the wheel and therefore having an affair with

1929
01:47:57,520 --> 01:47:59,960
Speaker 2: his wife rather than Tom. Wilson, at the end of

1930
01:48:00,120 --> 01:48:02,960
Speaker 2: the book goes to Jay's house and kills him before

1931
01:48:03,000 --> 01:48:06,800
Speaker 2: turning the gun on himself. Hell yeah. Scott felt very

1932
01:48:06,800 --> 01:48:09,679
Speaker 2: strongly about keeping these scenes of brutality in the book.

1933
01:48:10,360 --> 01:48:13,840
Speaker 2: For example, when Myrtle gets killed, he includes an extremely

1934
01:48:13,840 --> 01:48:17,080
Speaker 2: gory detail for left breast being cut off in the accident,

1935
01:48:17,600 --> 01:48:19,320
Speaker 2: and he made a note to his editor that this

1936
01:48:19,360 --> 01:48:22,559
Speaker 2: detail needed to remain in the manuscript because to him.

1937
01:48:23,000 --> 01:48:26,960
Speaker 2: It was very important to show mutilation. This was ugly

1938
01:48:27,000 --> 01:48:30,840
Speaker 2: and grotesque. These people had cost things and they don't

1939
01:48:30,880 --> 01:48:34,479
Speaker 2: pay the cost. Somebody else does. In this case it

1940
01:48:34,520 --> 01:48:37,599
Speaker 2: was Wilson, the man at the gas station, Myrtle's husband's

1941
01:48:37,880 --> 01:48:41,360
Speaker 2: long suffering husband, I might add, and gets I think

1942
01:48:41,360 --> 01:48:45,880
Speaker 2: that's also a reference to antiquity. Oh that would make sense.

1943
01:48:46,280 --> 01:48:47,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a whole thing going back to like the

1944
01:48:48,000 --> 01:48:52,400
Speaker 3: Dexter sinister era of with like right, right and left

1945
01:48:52,439 --> 01:48:56,559
Speaker 3: thing like it's Middle Ages, h like, so Middle Ages

1946
01:48:56,600 --> 01:49:00,360
Speaker 3: to Renaissance was they were like breastfeeding is like sure's

1947
01:49:00,360 --> 01:49:04,240
Speaker 3: illness apparently, so they like the right breast is like

1948
01:49:04,439 --> 01:49:06,280
Speaker 3: the giver and the left breast is evil or.

1949
01:49:06,280 --> 01:49:09,640
Speaker 2: Something like that, like left handed right it isn't like

1950
01:49:09,800 --> 01:49:14,479
Speaker 2: exactly left in Latin sinistra or something. And that's where

1951
01:49:14,520 --> 01:49:15,320
Speaker 2: you get the word sinister.

1952
01:49:15,479 --> 01:49:18,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, sorry, dexter, dexter and sinister, I was saying,

1953
01:49:18,320 --> 01:49:21,880
Speaker 3: goes back to the heraldry, like the dexter side and

1954
01:49:22,000 --> 01:49:22,800
Speaker 3: sinister side.

1955
01:49:22,800 --> 01:49:23,880
Speaker 2: And then yeah, and do.

1956
01:49:23,880 --> 01:49:25,280
Speaker 3: You know why it's considered evil?

1957
01:49:26,120 --> 01:49:26,240
Speaker 2: No?

1958
01:49:26,280 --> 01:49:30,640
Speaker 3: I don't, because of sword sword fighting. Supposedly, if you

1959
01:49:30,640 --> 01:49:34,360
Speaker 3: were left handed, you had an advantage in certain combat

1960
01:49:34,400 --> 01:49:37,840
Speaker 3: situations because most people were right handed, and in particular,

1961
01:49:38,520 --> 01:49:42,479
Speaker 3: because castles were designed with spiral staircases, you would have

1962
01:49:42,560 --> 01:49:46,400
Speaker 3: an advantage against someone defending and retreating upwards as a

1963
01:49:46,479 --> 01:49:49,599
Speaker 3: left handed person. So rather than them being like, yeah,

1964
01:49:49,600 --> 01:49:52,800
Speaker 3: that's this is a normal way that humans evolved, they're like, no,

1965
01:49:53,000 --> 01:49:56,120
Speaker 3: everyone left handed must be evil because they're beating us

1966
01:49:56,160 --> 01:49:58,400
Speaker 3: in certain combat situations.

1967
01:49:58,640 --> 01:50:02,880
Speaker 2: That's insane. I had never heard that. Wow, that's incredible.

1968
01:50:03,240 --> 01:50:06,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, deep pool, that's why they can't like Ford. That's

1969
01:50:06,000 --> 01:50:08,200
Speaker 3: why there's a whole generation left handed people who are

1970
01:50:08,200 --> 01:50:10,400
Speaker 3: forced to right and left. Like it was just that

1971
01:50:10,640 --> 01:50:16,400
Speaker 3: stigma persistent for so long as you meditate on that,

1972
01:50:16,720 --> 01:50:19,439
Speaker 3: We'll be right back with more too much information after

1973
01:50:19,479 --> 01:50:20,160
Speaker 3: these messages.

1974
01:50:25,840 --> 01:50:35,120
Speaker 2: Wow, well, there's an old line. Every character in your

1975
01:50:35,200 --> 01:50:41,479
Speaker 2: dream is really you, christ I hope not you. That

1976
01:50:41,600 --> 01:50:44,000
Speaker 2: expression comes to mind when looking at characters in The

1977
01:50:44,000 --> 01:50:44,639
Speaker 2: Great Gatsby.

1978
01:50:44,880 --> 01:50:47,680
Speaker 3: Am I my father addressed as Michael Myers, pursuing me

1979
01:50:47,720 --> 01:50:48,679
Speaker 3: through my childhood home.

1980
01:50:50,400 --> 01:50:53,280
Speaker 2: In a sense, you could argue that f Scott Fitzgerald

1981
01:50:53,320 --> 01:50:56,439
Speaker 2: is Jay, this poor romantic who was scorned for a

1982
01:50:56,600 --> 01:50:59,600
Speaker 2: subpar financial prospects and worked hard to make himself a

1983
01:50:59,640 --> 01:51:02,640
Speaker 2: success worthy of the woman that he loves well. The

1984
01:51:02,680 --> 01:51:05,800
Speaker 2: novel's level headed narrator, Nick Carraway, has just as much

1985
01:51:05,800 --> 01:51:10,000
Speaker 2: in common with Scott as the titular anti hero. Like Scott,

1986
01:51:10,160 --> 01:51:13,040
Speaker 2: Nick is a young Midwesterner who attended an Ivy League school.

1987
01:51:13,920 --> 01:51:17,640
Speaker 2: Like Scott, Nick's father owns a hardware store, and in

1988
01:51:17,680 --> 01:51:20,800
Speaker 2: recent years, scholars have spilled a lot of ink theorizing

1989
01:51:20,840 --> 01:51:26,000
Speaker 2: about Nick's sexuality nice. They specifically side a passage where

1990
01:51:26,080 --> 01:51:29,640
Speaker 2: Nick departs a drunken orgy with a quote pale feminine

1991
01:51:29,640 --> 01:51:34,760
Speaker 2: man named mister McKee. Following what Wikipedia editors describe as

1992
01:51:35,000 --> 01:51:39,720
Speaker 2: suggestive ellipses, Nick finds himself standing beside a bed, while

1993
01:51:39,800 --> 01:51:43,320
Speaker 2: McKee lays between the sheets, claude only in his underwear.

1994
01:51:44,520 --> 01:51:47,120
Speaker 2: Others have observed the way that Nick describes the people

1995
01:51:47,120 --> 01:51:50,280
Speaker 2: in the novel. For example, the greatest compliment he ever

1996
01:51:50,320 --> 01:51:53,880
Speaker 2: gives Daisy is that she has quote a low, thrilling voice,

1997
01:51:54,520 --> 01:51:57,920
Speaker 2: and his description of Tom Buchanan focuses on his muscles

1998
01:51:58,080 --> 01:52:02,720
Speaker 2: and the enormous power of body. An early draft of

1999
01:52:02,760 --> 01:52:05,080
Speaker 2: the book featured a passage where Nick left the job

2000
01:52:05,160 --> 01:52:07,519
Speaker 2: after a male coworker came on to him, but it

2001
01:52:07,560 --> 01:52:11,479
Speaker 2: was excised before it came the publication. Maybe. Scholars in

2002
01:52:11,520 --> 01:52:14,439
Speaker 2: recent years have re examined Nick's attachment to Jay Gatsby.

2003
01:52:15,160 --> 01:52:18,920
Speaker 2: Critic Greg Olier argues that Nick idolizes Gatsby in a

2004
01:52:18,960 --> 01:52:22,559
Speaker 2: similar way that Gatsby idealized Daisy, saying that if you

2005
01:52:22,600 --> 01:52:25,519
Speaker 2: read the passage where Nick first encounters Gatsby out of

2006
01:52:25,560 --> 01:52:28,880
Speaker 2: context quote, you would probably conclude it was from a

2007
01:52:28,960 --> 01:52:32,360
Speaker 2: romance novel. If that scene where a cartoon cupid would

2008
01:52:32,400 --> 01:52:35,599
Speaker 2: shoot an arrow, music would swell and Nick's eyes would

2009
01:52:35,600 --> 01:52:39,880
Speaker 2: turn into giant hearts. Scholar Joseph Vogel writes that quote

2010
01:52:39,920 --> 01:52:42,559
Speaker 2: a strong case can be made the most compelling story

2011
01:52:42,560 --> 01:52:45,400
Speaker 2: of unrequited love in both the novel and the film

2012
01:52:45,720 --> 01:52:48,840
Speaker 2: is not between Jay Gatsby and Daisy, but between Nick

2013
01:52:48,960 --> 01:52:49,920
Speaker 2: and Jay Gatsby.

2014
01:52:50,200 --> 01:52:52,920
Speaker 3: It's funny because it's Sam Waterson in the movies, who

2015
01:52:52,920 --> 01:52:55,120
Speaker 3: I would just never not think of as a law

2016
01:52:55,120 --> 01:53:00,360
Speaker 3: and order prosecutor. It's like, you're not a sex symbol.

2017
01:53:00,400 --> 01:53:02,920
Speaker 3: You're an old, wrinkly man. You don't have sex, You

2018
01:53:03,280 --> 01:53:04,400
Speaker 3: just live in a courthouse.

2019
01:53:07,280 --> 01:53:10,519
Speaker 2: However, other scholars believe that people are reading a little

2020
01:53:10,520 --> 01:53:14,240
Speaker 2: too far into things. Writing in Los Angeles magazine, the

2021
01:53:14,280 --> 01:53:18,120
Speaker 2: novelist Steve Erickson argues that Nick Carraway's interest in Gatsby

2022
01:53:18,640 --> 01:53:20,920
Speaker 2: is less about being in love with him than wanting

2023
01:53:20,960 --> 01:53:25,360
Speaker 2: to become him, and not in the single white female way.

2024
01:53:25,760 --> 01:53:27,960
Speaker 2: Caraway is back from the war and back from the

2025
01:53:28,000 --> 01:53:31,120
Speaker 2: Midwest and wanting nothing more than to be Gatsby himself,

2026
01:53:31,160 --> 01:53:34,559
Speaker 2: he says. Writer Michael Boorn offers a take that probably

2027
01:53:34,600 --> 01:53:38,240
Speaker 2: aligns the most with me personally. Whether or not Caraway

2028
01:53:38,320 --> 01:53:40,799
Speaker 2: is gay quote can't be proven one way or another,

2029
01:53:40,880 --> 01:53:43,799
Speaker 2: he writes, but I suspect the queer readings of Caraway

2030
01:53:43,840 --> 01:53:45,960
Speaker 2: say more about the way we read now than they

2031
01:53:46,000 --> 01:53:49,440
Speaker 2: do about Nick or the great Gatsby got him. Interestingly,

2032
01:53:49,520 --> 01:53:52,760
Speaker 2: as we touched on before, a Gatsby prequel about Nick

2033
01:53:52,840 --> 01:53:57,479
Speaker 2: Carraway called Just Nick, was released in twenty twenty one

2034
01:53:57,840 --> 01:54:02,120
Speaker 2: by writer Michael Ferris Smith that guy. It centers on

2035
01:54:02,160 --> 01:54:05,120
Speaker 2: his pre long island life. I have not read it,

2036
01:54:05,160 --> 01:54:08,519
Speaker 2: but I don't believe there are any homosexual undertones. My

2037
01:54:08,600 --> 01:54:10,439
Speaker 2: heart goes out to this guy because he wrote it

2038
01:54:10,479 --> 01:54:12,880
Speaker 2: and didn't realize that it was like a copyright infringement,

2039
01:54:13,120 --> 01:54:17,080
Speaker 2: So we had the wait years to publish it until.

2040
01:54:16,200 --> 01:54:18,000
Speaker 3: Somebody had a better idea.

2041
01:54:19,120 --> 01:54:23,720
Speaker 2: In that user game, fair use or what's the expression

2042
01:54:23,840 --> 01:54:29,280
Speaker 2: public domain? Public domain? Yeah, I mean, I know, I know,

2043
01:54:29,479 --> 01:54:29,720
Speaker 2: I know.

2044
01:54:30,360 --> 01:54:32,000
Speaker 3: So this has led, this all has led a certain

2045
01:54:32,040 --> 01:54:35,320
Speaker 3: subset of scholars certain love that this has all led

2046
01:54:35,360 --> 01:54:38,960
Speaker 3: a certain selective subset of scholars to follow this thought process.

2047
01:54:39,120 --> 01:54:41,760
Speaker 3: If Nick Carraway, the narrator of The Great Gatsby, is

2048
01:54:41,800 --> 01:54:44,840
Speaker 3: supposed to be a closeted homosexual, and Nick Carraway is

2049
01:54:44,840 --> 01:54:46,560
Speaker 3: also supposed to be kind of a stand in for

2050
01:54:46,640 --> 01:54:52,000
Speaker 3: author F. Scott Fitzgerald by the transitive property you follow

2051
01:54:53,600 --> 01:54:57,360
Speaker 3: in truth. People have been speculating about our boy F's

2052
01:54:57,680 --> 01:55:00,000
Speaker 3: sexuality for many years. It was even the subject of

2053
01:55:00,080 --> 01:55:03,160
Speaker 3: debate during his lifetime, at least within his own social circle.

2054
01:55:03,800 --> 01:55:06,320
Speaker 3: Wikipedia editors feel the need to point out that as

2055
01:55:06,320 --> 01:55:10,160
Speaker 3: a youth, Fitzgerald had a close relationship with father Sigourney Fay,

2056
01:55:10,720 --> 01:55:14,440
Speaker 3: a possibly gay Catholic priest, and Fitzgerald later used his

2057
01:55:14,520 --> 01:55:17,600
Speaker 3: last name for the idealized romantic character of Daisy Faye.

2058
01:55:18,280 --> 01:55:23,320
Speaker 3: Also Fitzgerald, per Wikipedia, cross dressed during outings in Minnesota.

2059
01:55:23,920 --> 01:55:26,880
Speaker 3: His college theatrical troupe was, of course all men, and

2060
01:55:26,920 --> 01:55:29,080
Speaker 3: Scott occasionally played roles in drags there in the Grand

2061
01:55:29,160 --> 01:55:31,680
Speaker 3: shakespeare In tradition, so it's theorized that he might have

2062
01:55:31,760 --> 01:55:35,720
Speaker 3: just worn these costumes as a gay lark in the

2063
01:55:35,760 --> 01:55:40,200
Speaker 3: original term. He reportedly did this in later years as well.

2064
01:55:40,480 --> 01:55:45,240
Speaker 3: For a gay prank. Cross dressing among the Lost Generation

2065
01:55:45,360 --> 01:55:48,600
Speaker 3: literary crowd wasn't totally unheard of. A playful violation of

2066
01:55:48,680 --> 01:55:51,880
Speaker 3: social norms. It supposedly reflected a broader spirit of rebellion

2067
01:55:51,960 --> 01:55:56,120
Speaker 3: rather than deeper personal statement citation needed.

2068
01:55:56,440 --> 01:56:02,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I who said that? Who said that? Who

2069
01:56:02,400 --> 01:56:08,800
Speaker 2: said that? Hawthorne solom Wikipedia Okay.

2070
01:56:09,280 --> 01:56:11,400
Speaker 3: Scholars have honed in on a line that Scott wrote

2071
01:56:11,400 --> 01:56:13,560
Speaker 3: in a nineteen thirty five letter to an acquaintance, in

2072
01:56:13,600 --> 01:56:16,800
Speaker 3: which he stated that although he was quote born masculine

2073
01:56:16,960 --> 01:56:21,120
Speaker 3: and so masculine, no one would ever doubt it, he

2074
01:56:21,160 --> 01:56:24,240
Speaker 3: believed that he was quote half feminine at least my

2075
01:56:24,320 --> 01:56:28,520
Speaker 3: mind is. Even my feminine characters are feminine Scott. Fitzgerald's

2076
01:56:29,440 --> 01:56:32,440
Speaker 3: rumors about Scott's sexuality dogged him as he was finishing

2077
01:56:32,480 --> 01:56:35,440
Speaker 3: The Great Gatsby. The gossip intensified then during his time

2078
01:56:35,520 --> 01:56:37,920
Speaker 3: spent in Paris. It was there on the eve of

2079
01:56:37,960 --> 01:56:40,480
Speaker 3: Gatsby's publication in April of nineteen twenty five that he

2080
01:56:40,520 --> 01:56:45,440
Speaker 3: met Ernest Hemingway. In his memoir A Movable Feast, Hemway

2081
01:56:45,480 --> 01:56:47,720
Speaker 3: wrote that Scott quote looked like a boy with a

2082
01:56:47,760 --> 01:56:51,360
Speaker 3: face between handsome and pretty. He had dot dot dot,

2083
01:56:51,640 --> 01:56:54,840
Speaker 3: a delicate, long lipped Irish mouth that on a girl

2084
01:56:55,160 --> 01:56:57,680
Speaker 3: would have been the mouth of a beauty. The mouth

2085
01:56:57,800 --> 01:57:00,680
Speaker 3: worried you until you knew him, and then it worried

2086
01:57:00,720 --> 01:57:01,160
Speaker 3: you more.

2087
01:57:01,920 --> 01:57:05,000
Speaker 2: Wink wink. Was that about what he was gonna say

2088
01:57:05,120 --> 01:57:05,560
Speaker 2: that way?

2089
01:57:05,800 --> 01:57:08,600
Speaker 3: I think so. No, No, I think it worried you

2090
01:57:08,640 --> 01:57:11,000
Speaker 3: more because you wanted to just give him a smooch.

2091
01:57:13,360 --> 01:57:17,240
Speaker 3: He'd also referred disdainfully to Scott's quote fairy side, which

2092
01:57:17,240 --> 01:57:22,160
Speaker 3: seems more in line with you the Hemingway we all knew,

2093
01:57:22,760 --> 01:57:25,040
Speaker 3: seemingly from the start. Though those in the literary ex

2094
01:57:25,240 --> 01:57:29,360
Speaker 3: pat community in Paris wandered around the precise nature of

2095
01:57:29,600 --> 01:57:35,120
Speaker 3: Scott's and Zelda's relationship, and Scott's wives would stoke these rumors.

2096
01:57:35,400 --> 01:57:37,080
Speaker 2: It wasn't all she stoked by.

2097
01:57:37,000 --> 01:57:40,000
Speaker 3: Openly asserting that Scott was a closeted gay man, hurling

2098
01:57:40,040 --> 01:57:43,200
Speaker 3: homophobic slurs at him in public presumably after a few

2099
01:57:43,280 --> 01:57:47,160
Speaker 3: drinks and accusing him of sleeping with Hemingway whatever moving

2100
01:57:47,200 --> 01:57:48,760
Speaker 3: on women from.

2101
01:57:48,680 --> 01:57:50,400
Speaker 2: The South uh.

2102
01:57:50,440 --> 01:57:54,280
Speaker 3: This accusation, though, according to Wikipedia, possibly stemmed from an

2103
01:57:54,280 --> 01:57:57,920
Speaker 3: incident in which Hemingway examined Fitzgerald's genitalia in a Paris

2104
01:57:58,040 --> 01:58:02,920
Speaker 3: restroom after Zelda taunted him over his penis size. These incidents,

2105
01:58:03,240 --> 01:58:06,680
Speaker 3: and many others like them, further strained the Fitzgerald's marriage, which,

2106
01:58:06,720 --> 01:58:10,040
Speaker 3: as you can probably guess, was largely troubled. Hemingway started

2107
01:58:10,080 --> 01:58:12,360
Speaker 3: to avoid Scott during these rumors, which is just so

2108
01:58:12,520 --> 01:58:14,840
Speaker 3: sad because he could have just fought him and gotten

2109
01:58:14,880 --> 01:58:17,400
Speaker 3: it out of the way, as he was.

2110
01:58:17,400 --> 01:58:17,880
Speaker 2: Wont to do.

2111
01:58:18,760 --> 01:58:21,400
Speaker 3: After Hemingway broke off relations with him, Fitzgerald wrote in

2112
01:58:21,400 --> 01:58:24,440
Speaker 3: his notebook, I really loved him, but of course it

2113
01:58:24,520 --> 01:58:28,400
Speaker 3: wore out like a love affair. Like affair, it wore out,

2114
01:58:28,520 --> 01:58:31,880
Speaker 3: not akin to a love affair, not as in we

2115
01:58:32,000 --> 01:58:36,360
Speaker 3: actually porked. But it would have been very moving had they.

2116
01:58:37,560 --> 01:58:40,560
Speaker 3: Scott and Hemingway became close friends, but Zelda and Hemingway

2117
01:58:40,600 --> 01:58:44,200
Speaker 3: instantly disliked each other from their first meeting. Although Hemingway

2118
01:58:44,200 --> 01:58:47,000
Speaker 3: admitted to having a quote erotic dream about Zelda the

2119
01:58:47,080 --> 01:58:49,120
Speaker 3: night they met, which is a weird thing to share.

2120
01:58:51,120 --> 01:58:54,600
Speaker 3: Francis old Sport. I cranked it to your awful wife

2121
01:58:54,680 --> 01:58:55,160
Speaker 3: last night.

2122
01:58:55,640 --> 01:58:58,000
Speaker 2: Won a box? Want to fight about it?

2123
01:58:58,400 --> 01:58:59,080
Speaker 3: I mean literally?

2124
01:58:59,160 --> 01:58:59,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

2125
01:59:00,520 --> 01:59:04,400
Speaker 3: Zelda would make frequent homophobic cracks about Hemingway's supposed relationship

2126
01:59:04,400 --> 01:59:07,480
Speaker 3: with her husband, and thought that Hemingway's macho persona was

2127
01:59:07,520 --> 01:59:11,600
Speaker 3: a facade to conceal his homosexuality. She would thus refer

2128
01:59:11,680 --> 01:59:14,080
Speaker 3: to him to his face as a fairy with hair

2129
01:59:14,160 --> 01:59:17,919
Speaker 3: on his chest. It's funny that we needed like fifty

2130
01:59:18,040 --> 01:59:23,040
Speaker 3: years of Hemingway scholarship to be like he's probably by Hemingway, meanwhile,

2131
01:59:23,080 --> 01:59:25,960
Speaker 3: considered Zelda insane in the best of times, and even

2132
01:59:26,000 --> 01:59:28,200
Speaker 3: went so far as telling Scott that he felt she

2133
01:59:28,440 --> 01:59:33,040
Speaker 3: was attempting to destroy his career with these public character assassinations. Now,

2134
01:59:33,200 --> 01:59:35,040
Speaker 3: far be it for us to play into the crazy

2135
01:59:35,080 --> 01:59:38,160
Speaker 3: woman's stereotype. But Zelda was actually crazy, and not just

2136
01:59:38,200 --> 01:59:42,680
Speaker 3: in the southern way or even in the more charitable

2137
01:59:42,800 --> 01:59:45,600
Speaker 3: She was a headstrong woman in the nineteen twenties kind

2138
01:59:45,640 --> 01:59:50,760
Speaker 3: of way. Even as a teenager, Friends, family servants often

2139
01:59:50,760 --> 01:59:53,720
Speaker 3: described him no, I'm kidding. They would never ask a

2140
01:59:53,760 --> 01:59:56,480
Speaker 3: servant what they thought of the master girl, even to

2141
01:59:56,520 --> 01:59:59,800
Speaker 3: the teenager. Friends and family often described Zelda as restless, volatile,

2142
01:59:59,840 --> 02:00:03,120
Speaker 3: and prone to dramatic mood swings, traits that later deep

2143
02:00:03,120 --> 02:00:06,800
Speaker 3: into more serious behaviors. During her early marriage to Scott,

2144
02:00:06,880 --> 02:00:09,960
Speaker 3: Zelda would sometimes engage in risky behavior, like the time

2145
02:00:10,000 --> 02:00:12,280
Speaker 3: she threw herself down a flight of marble stairs at

2146
02:00:12,320 --> 02:00:15,560
Speaker 3: a party because Scott was busy talking to Isidora Duncan

2147
02:00:16,080 --> 02:00:19,360
Speaker 3: and not her. In April of nineteen thirty, Zelda suffered

2148
02:00:19,360 --> 02:00:22,040
Speaker 3: a serious mental breakdown. She became obsessed with becoming a

2149
02:00:22,080 --> 02:00:24,560
Speaker 3: professional ballet dancer at the age of twenty nine, which

2150
02:00:24,600 --> 02:00:27,480
Speaker 3: is passed far past the age when you can reasonably

2151
02:00:27,480 --> 02:00:28,480
Speaker 3: expect to achieve this goal.

2152
02:00:28,640 --> 02:00:32,240
Speaker 2: Ballet dancing is a stupid dream. I'll say this right now.

2153
02:00:32,720 --> 02:00:35,839
Speaker 3: It's a wonderful form of art, but is a stupid

2154
02:00:35,880 --> 02:00:39,240
Speaker 3: thing to want to be. You are inviting eating disorders

2155
02:00:39,240 --> 02:00:41,720
Speaker 3: into your home. You are crippling your feet for a

2156
02:00:41,800 --> 02:00:45,040
Speaker 3: career that is as marginalized as the rest of art

2157
02:00:45,120 --> 02:00:48,320
Speaker 3: in this country and internationally except for maybe in Moscow.

2158
02:00:48,760 --> 02:00:52,320
Speaker 3: But your career is like ten years long. You get

2159
02:00:52,600 --> 02:00:55,040
Speaker 3: less time out of being a ballet dancer than you

2160
02:00:55,080 --> 02:01:01,720
Speaker 3: do playing in the NFL. Parents discourage it, get them

2161
02:01:01,720 --> 02:01:04,240
Speaker 3: into break dancing. At least you can back up. You know,

2162
02:01:04,400 --> 02:01:08,880
Speaker 3: you can tour with musicians or cheerleading because the NFL

2163
02:01:08,920 --> 02:01:10,640
Speaker 3: has money anyway.

2164
02:01:11,600 --> 02:01:11,760
Speaker 2: Uh.

2165
02:01:13,600 --> 02:01:19,360
Speaker 3: Zelda is undeterred by me. Adopted a punishing routine, maniacally

2166
02:01:19,440 --> 02:01:21,800
Speaker 3: practicing eight hours a day, long past the point of

2167
02:01:21,840 --> 02:01:24,720
Speaker 3: physical exhaustion and an injury, and long past the point

2168
02:01:24,800 --> 02:01:27,680
Speaker 3: a functional alcoholic should reasonably expect to be able to

2169
02:01:27,680 --> 02:01:32,000
Speaker 3: do anything. This obsessive behavior culminated in a collapse physical

2170
02:01:32,080 --> 02:01:36,000
Speaker 3: and emotional. One day, Scott returned home to find an

2171
02:01:36,000 --> 02:01:38,520
Speaker 3: exhausted Zelda seated on the floor and entranced with a

2172
02:01:38,520 --> 02:01:42,080
Speaker 3: pile of sand, much like Brian Wilson would be decades later.

2173
02:01:42,240 --> 02:01:44,080
Speaker 3: When he asked her what she was doing, she could

2174
02:01:44,080 --> 02:01:46,720
Speaker 3: not speak, which must have been a real relief to him.

2175
02:01:47,040 --> 02:01:49,880
Speaker 3: He summoned a physician, who examined Zelda and informed him

2176
02:01:49,960 --> 02:01:56,320
Speaker 3: that your wife is mad. God, I missed those days psychiatry,

2177
02:01:56,880 --> 02:01:59,839
Speaker 3: just take laudnum for it. Soon after, she was diagnosed

2178
02:01:59,880 --> 02:02:03,120
Speaker 3: with schizophrenia. Today, some scholars think that Zelda might have

2179
02:02:03,120 --> 02:02:06,200
Speaker 3: had bipolar disorder rather than classic schizophrenia, but at the time,

2180
02:02:06,240 --> 02:02:10,080
Speaker 3: schizophrenia was a common catch all diagnosis. I actually have

2181
02:02:10,160 --> 02:02:13,160
Speaker 3: something about this one second. This is from a book

2182
02:02:13,200 --> 02:02:16,240
Speaker 3: called The Collected Schizophrenias by a woman named Sme Wadge

2183
02:02:16,320 --> 02:02:20,280
Speaker 3: and Wong, who is schizophrenic herself, and she's written this

2184
02:02:20,880 --> 02:02:23,839
Speaker 3: very powerful series of essays about dealing with the disease,

2185
02:02:25,040 --> 02:02:26,440
Speaker 3: and she gives the.

2186
02:02:26,480 --> 02:02:27,360
Speaker 2: Kind of history of the term.

2187
02:02:27,400 --> 02:02:31,200
Speaker 3: Here where the German physician Emiel Krepalen is credited with

2188
02:02:31,440 --> 02:02:35,560
Speaker 3: discovering what he called the dementia prey coox in eighteen

2189
02:02:35,640 --> 02:02:39,680
Speaker 3: ninety three. The term schizophrenia was coined by a Swiss

2190
02:02:39,680 --> 02:02:43,400
Speaker 3: psychiatrist named Eugene Blueler in nineteen oh eight, and that

2191
02:02:43,440 --> 02:02:46,960
Speaker 3: came from the Greek roots schizo, split and free mind

2192
02:02:47,080 --> 02:02:49,600
Speaker 3: to address the quote loosening of associations that are common

2193
02:02:49,600 --> 02:02:54,480
Speaker 3: in the disorder. But Bluller conceived of schizophrenia as quote

2194
02:02:54,480 --> 02:02:58,520
Speaker 3: a genus rather than a species. As a concept, Schizophrena's

2195
02:02:58,560 --> 02:03:01,400
Speaker 3: encompass a wide range of psychotic disorders. I don't know

2196
02:03:01,440 --> 02:03:04,360
Speaker 3: why I put that in there. I just wanted to, Well,

2197
02:03:04,400 --> 02:03:06,160
Speaker 3: you're right, though, I mean that back then that was

2198
02:03:06,320 --> 02:03:08,320
Speaker 3: it was a catch all at all. Yeah, and she

2199
02:03:08,480 --> 02:03:14,200
Speaker 3: very likely was just bipolar or maybe just southern. So

2200
02:03:14,680 --> 02:03:16,560
Speaker 3: from this point on, Zelda spent the rest of her

2201
02:03:16,560 --> 02:03:19,200
Speaker 3: life in and out of psychiatric hospitals. Medical records in

2202
02:03:19,200 --> 02:03:24,200
Speaker 3: Fitzgerald's letters described Zelda experiencing hallucinations, paranora, and disordered thinking

2203
02:03:24,320 --> 02:03:28,640
Speaker 3: during her hospitalizations. One report reads, the patient exhibits delusions

2204
02:03:28,640 --> 02:03:31,800
Speaker 3: of grandeur, believing herself to be a world famous ballerina.

2205
02:03:32,200 --> 02:03:36,880
Speaker 3: She is emotionally labile, alternating between violent outbursts and inconsolable weeping.

2206
02:03:37,360 --> 02:03:38,160
Speaker 2: Who among us.

2207
02:03:39,200 --> 02:03:41,000
Speaker 3: At various times, she believed that she was in direct

2208
02:03:41,040 --> 02:03:44,320
Speaker 3: communication with historical or religious figures. She also suffered from

2209
02:03:44,400 --> 02:03:47,560
Speaker 3: various religious delusions later in life, claiming at one point

2210
02:03:47,640 --> 02:03:51,600
Speaker 3: to be a reincarnation of several saints. Zelda also attempted

2211
02:03:51,600 --> 02:03:54,480
Speaker 3: suicide multiple times, and there would be points in her

2212
02:03:54,520 --> 02:03:56,360
Speaker 3: life when she was lucid, but then she would revert

2213
02:03:56,400 --> 02:03:59,240
Speaker 3: to periods when her mental health declined and she required

2214
02:03:59,240 --> 02:04:02,880
Speaker 3: further treatment. She wrote to Scott shortly before his death,

2215
02:04:03,160 --> 02:04:05,200
Speaker 3: I am losing my sense of reality and feel I

2216
02:04:05,240 --> 02:04:08,040
Speaker 3: am wandering into a mist from which I shall not return.

2217
02:04:09,320 --> 02:04:12,520
Speaker 3: Through this all though she remained highly creative writing a

2218
02:04:12,560 --> 02:04:14,400
Speaker 3: novel of her own called Save Me the Waltz in

2219
02:04:14,480 --> 02:04:17,840
Speaker 3: nineteen thirty two, a semi autobiographical work that contains the

2220
02:04:17,840 --> 02:04:20,280
Speaker 3: telling line she refused to be one of those weak

2221
02:04:20,360 --> 02:04:23,400
Speaker 3: women who fall ill of a disappointment. It was better

2222
02:04:23,440 --> 02:04:26,760
Speaker 3: to go mad. She would also say privately, I am

2223
02:04:26,760 --> 02:04:30,000
Speaker 3: only really alive when I am in madness. Other times

2224
02:04:30,000 --> 02:04:34,839
Speaker 3: she would say, I am a phantom of myself. Rough stuff.

2225
02:04:35,600 --> 02:04:38,720
Speaker 3: Hemingway meanwhile, had little sympathy for Zelda, purely because he

2226
02:04:38,760 --> 02:04:41,400
Speaker 3: resented what her behavior was doing to his friend, and,

2227
02:04:41,480 --> 02:04:44,280
Speaker 3: in his defense, more serious signs of mental illness didn't

2228
02:04:44,280 --> 02:04:44,920
Speaker 3: become a parent.

2229
02:04:44,960 --> 02:04:47,320
Speaker 2: Two years later, Hemingway.

2230
02:04:46,920 --> 02:04:50,080
Speaker 3: Those saw Zelda, or rather her illness, although it is unlikely,

2231
02:04:50,120 --> 02:04:53,680
Speaker 3: he made a distinction as overwhelming and destructive, and blamed

2232
02:04:53,680 --> 02:04:55,480
Speaker 3: her for Scott's ultimate decline.

2233
02:04:55,760 --> 02:04:56,320
Speaker 2: As he wrote in.

2234
02:04:56,320 --> 02:04:59,560
Speaker 3: His memoir, Zelda was crazy. She would pull Scott down

2235
02:04:59,560 --> 02:05:02,200
Speaker 3: with her if she could. He claimed that he realized

2236
02:05:02,280 --> 02:05:04,480
Speaker 3: Zelda had a mental illness during an early meeting when

2237
02:05:04,560 --> 02:05:07,760
Speaker 3: she aggressively insisted that jazz singer Al Jolson was greater

2238
02:05:07,760 --> 02:05:15,240
Speaker 3: than Jesus Christ, which arguable, I mean, is this talkie?

2239
02:05:15,280 --> 02:05:17,320
Speaker 3: It was only forty years until later the Beatles say

2240
02:05:17,360 --> 02:05:20,440
Speaker 3: they were doing it, so what do they have? Al

2241
02:05:20,520 --> 02:05:24,120
Speaker 3: Jolson didn't am I right. Hemingway frequently warned Scott that

2242
02:05:24,200 --> 02:05:26,920
Speaker 3: Zelda was destroying his creativity, their constant demand for attention,

2243
02:05:27,160 --> 02:05:29,920
Speaker 3: childlike need for stimulation, and the way she urged him

2244
02:05:29,920 --> 02:05:33,240
Speaker 3: to write brain numbing articles and stories for magazines rather

2245
02:05:33,280 --> 02:05:35,600
Speaker 3: than his novels, in order to obtain quick bursts of

2246
02:05:35,640 --> 02:05:39,480
Speaker 3: cash to finance their lifestyle. She would later admit to this,

2247
02:05:39,680 --> 02:05:42,200
Speaker 3: essentially saying I always felt a story in the Post

2248
02:05:42,240 --> 02:05:45,200
Speaker 3: was tops, but Scott couldn't stand to write them. He

2249
02:05:45,280 --> 02:05:49,200
Speaker 3: was completely cerebral, you know all mined. In a letter

2250
02:05:49,200 --> 02:05:51,960
Speaker 3: to Fitzgerald from nineteen thirty four, Hemingway warned him that

2251
02:05:52,040 --> 02:05:55,400
Speaker 3: Zelda would derail his career. Of all people on earth,

2252
02:05:55,400 --> 02:05:58,160
Speaker 3: you needed discipline in your work. Instead, you marry someone

2253
02:05:58,160 --> 02:06:00,520
Speaker 3: who's jealous of your work, wants to come heat with you,

2254
02:06:00,720 --> 02:06:02,960
Speaker 3: and ruins you. It's not as simple as that. And

2255
02:06:03,000 --> 02:06:04,880
Speaker 3: I thought Zelda was crazy the first time I met her,

2256
02:06:04,920 --> 02:06:07,080
Speaker 3: and you complicated it even more by being in love

2257
02:06:07,080 --> 02:06:10,120
Speaker 3: with her. And of course you're a rummy. I'd like

2258
02:06:10,200 --> 02:06:12,800
Speaker 3: to see and talk about things with you sober you

2259
02:06:12,840 --> 02:06:15,720
Speaker 3: were so damned stinking in New York, we didn't get anywhere.

2260
02:06:16,160 --> 02:06:20,200
Speaker 3: You see bow, which is short for bo as in

2261
02:06:20,360 --> 02:06:23,320
Speaker 3: like the love who's the nickname they had for each other.

2262
02:06:23,320 --> 02:06:25,760
Speaker 3: It does not helping the gay case. Nope, you are

2263
02:06:26,080 --> 02:06:27,200
Speaker 3: not a tragic character.

2264
02:06:27,760 --> 02:06:28,320
Speaker 2: Neither am I.

2265
02:06:28,960 --> 02:06:31,160
Speaker 3: All we are as writers, and what we should do

2266
02:06:31,280 --> 02:06:35,040
Speaker 3: is write forget your personal tragedy. We're all bitched from

2267
02:06:35,040 --> 02:06:37,160
Speaker 3: the start, and you especially have to hurt like hell

2268
02:06:37,240 --> 02:06:39,720
Speaker 3: before you can write seriously. But when you get the

2269
02:06:39,840 --> 02:06:42,880
Speaker 3: damned hurt, use it. Don't cheat with it. Be as

2270
02:06:42,920 --> 02:06:45,440
Speaker 3: faithful to it as a scientist. But don't think any

2271
02:06:45,480 --> 02:06:47,800
Speaker 3: of us is of any importance because it happens to

2272
02:06:47,840 --> 02:06:50,720
Speaker 3: you or anyone belonging to you about this time. I

2273
02:06:50,760 --> 02:06:54,080
Speaker 3: wouldn't blame you if you gave me a burst a punch. Jesus,

2274
02:06:54,160 --> 02:06:56,760
Speaker 3: it's marvelous to tell other people how to write, live, die,

2275
02:06:56,880 --> 02:07:00,840
Speaker 3: et cetera. But Scott, good writers always come back. Always

2276
02:07:01,560 --> 02:07:03,400
Speaker 3: your twice as good now as you were at the time.

2277
02:07:03,640 --> 02:07:06,200
Speaker 3: You think you were so marvelous. You can write twice

2278
02:07:06,240 --> 02:07:08,400
Speaker 3: as well now as you ever could. All you need

2279
02:07:08,440 --> 02:07:10,560
Speaker 3: to do is write truly and not care about what

2280
02:07:10,600 --> 02:07:14,040
Speaker 3: the fate of it is go on and write anyway.

2281
02:07:14,240 --> 02:07:16,000
Speaker 3: I'm damn fond of you, and I'd like to have

2282
02:07:16,080 --> 02:07:19,840
Speaker 3: a chance to talk sometimes always your friend, Ernest.

2283
02:07:21,440 --> 02:07:23,720
Speaker 2: May we all be so lucky to have a friend

2284
02:07:23,760 --> 02:07:24,640
Speaker 2: like Ernest Hemingway.

2285
02:07:24,760 --> 02:07:32,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean yeah, Ernest Ernest Hemingway also a great writer. Yeah, yeah,

2286
02:07:32,920 --> 02:07:36,000
Speaker 3: better whole forget your personal tragedy thing and like to

2287
02:07:36,280 --> 02:07:38,920
Speaker 3: like that to like the last entence in is uh.

2288
02:07:39,400 --> 02:07:42,040
Speaker 3: Everyone who enters a creative writing program should have that

2289
02:07:43,120 --> 02:07:44,520
Speaker 3: hand it out to them.

2290
02:07:44,920 --> 02:07:47,840
Speaker 2: That's excerpt from a longer letter, and there's some great stuff.

2291
02:07:47,800 --> 02:07:51,280
Speaker 2: I think that's the note where Hemingway says something like,

2292
02:07:51,800 --> 02:07:54,440
Speaker 2: you know, I write nine pages of garbage to like

2293
02:07:54,520 --> 02:07:57,800
Speaker 2: every one good page. But the trick is knowing which

2294
02:07:57,840 --> 02:08:01,160
Speaker 2: page is to put in the trash can or I'm paraphrasing. Yeah,

2295
02:08:01,280 --> 02:08:03,440
Speaker 2: there's a lot of great stuff in that letter. Yeah.

2296
02:08:04,200 --> 02:08:08,520
Speaker 2: I like their friendship. He was very heartwarming. Yeah. Through

2297
02:08:08,520 --> 02:08:11,000
Speaker 2: the end of nineteen twenty four and early nineteen twenty five,

2298
02:08:11,120 --> 02:08:13,920
Speaker 2: Scott revised his draft of the book. He had much

2299
02:08:13,920 --> 02:08:16,440
Speaker 2: of it in Rome, where he moved after Zelda's alleged

2300
02:08:16,440 --> 02:08:20,000
Speaker 2: affair with that naval airman not long after their arrival

2301
02:08:20,040 --> 02:08:22,440
Speaker 2: in Rome, in the autumn of nineteen twenty four, Scott

2302
02:08:22,480 --> 02:08:24,720
Speaker 2: was involved in a drunken brawl that ended in a

2303
02:08:24,720 --> 02:08:28,840
Speaker 2: police station, where Scott was severely beaten after throwing a

2304
02:08:28,920 --> 02:08:30,040
Speaker 2: punch at an officer.

2305
02:08:30,400 --> 02:08:31,840
Speaker 3: Good for him, Yeah, I.

2306
02:08:32,240 --> 02:08:33,520
Speaker 2: Know, I didn't think he had it in him.

2307
02:08:33,560 --> 02:08:35,760
Speaker 3: No, yeah, I love it.

2308
02:08:35,880 --> 02:08:37,120
Speaker 2: Where was this Rome?

2309
02:08:37,440 --> 02:08:40,000
Speaker 3: Oh well, that's an Italian cop. We're on there on

2310
02:08:40,040 --> 02:08:43,720
Speaker 3: the grand scale of police inefficiency. I was gonna say,

2311
02:08:43,720 --> 02:08:47,400
Speaker 3: from London, from like London, Bobby's to Japanese police, who

2312
02:08:47,440 --> 02:08:51,760
Speaker 3: can basically politely whistle at you. Where to did the

2313
02:08:51,800 --> 02:08:52,880
Speaker 3: Italian police fall?

2314
02:08:53,160 --> 02:08:55,400
Speaker 2: Hey? You know, I don't know. Good question. I'm not.

2315
02:08:55,760 --> 02:09:00,680
Speaker 3: I can't imagine they're particularly efficient, but you know, good

2316
02:09:00,680 --> 02:09:01,600
Speaker 3: for him.

2317
02:09:01,840 --> 02:09:05,959
Speaker 2: Am I reading? No, it's me sorry. You were just thinking.

2318
02:09:05,720 --> 02:09:10,120
Speaker 3: About and you just got all misty eyed.

2319
02:09:13,160 --> 02:09:15,480
Speaker 2: These revisions to the book that would be Gatsby were

2320
02:09:15,520 --> 02:09:18,560
Speaker 2: made with the invaluable help of his trustee, Scribner's editor,

2321
02:09:19,000 --> 02:09:24,640
Speaker 2: Maxwell Perkins. Perkins is probably the most important and consequential editor,

2322
02:09:24,680 --> 02:09:27,680
Speaker 2: or one of them, at least in literary history. At

2323
02:09:27,720 --> 02:09:30,640
Speaker 2: the time, Scribner's publishing house was somewhat of a stodgy

2324
02:09:30,680 --> 02:09:35,720
Speaker 2: place known for publishing older authors like John Galsworthy, Henry James,

2325
02:09:36,000 --> 02:09:39,120
Speaker 2: and Edith Wharton. Perkins wanted to provide a platform for

2326
02:09:39,200 --> 02:09:41,160
Speaker 2: new voices, and he put his job on the line

2327
02:09:41,200 --> 02:09:44,560
Speaker 2: for Scott. When the young writer first submitted the manuscript

2328
02:09:44,640 --> 02:09:47,440
Speaker 2: what would become This Side of Paradise a few years earlier,

2329
02:09:47,880 --> 02:09:50,240
Speaker 2: everyone else at the publishing house wanted to pass on it,

2330
02:09:50,560 --> 02:09:53,560
Speaker 2: but Perkins told his bosses, if we don't publish this

2331
02:09:53,840 --> 02:09:55,880
Speaker 2: or the likes of this, I don't know if I'm

2332
02:09:55,920 --> 02:09:59,160
Speaker 2: in the right business. They allowed him to sign Scott

2333
02:09:59,200 --> 02:10:01,440
Speaker 2: and they worked together to revise his first attempt at

2334
02:10:01,480 --> 02:10:04,000
Speaker 2: a novel into what became the Side of Paradise, which

2335
02:10:04,040 --> 02:10:07,160
Speaker 2: became a massive success. It was through Scott that Perkins

2336
02:10:07,200 --> 02:10:10,520
Speaker 2: met and signed a young Ernest Hemingway, publishing his first

2337
02:10:10,520 --> 02:10:13,680
Speaker 2: major novel, The Sun Also Rises in nineteen twenty six.

2338
02:10:14,640 --> 02:10:17,480
Speaker 2: Scott sent Perkins a note about Hemingway which read, in part,

2339
02:10:17,600 --> 02:10:20,080
Speaker 2: I look him up right away. He's the real thing.

2340
02:10:21,160 --> 02:10:24,560
Speaker 3: I ship them what him and Maxwell and.

2341
02:10:25,080 --> 02:10:28,920
Speaker 2: No, No, Hemingway and Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald going to bath for

2342
02:10:28,960 --> 02:10:34,400
Speaker 2: his buddy, the real thing. I know. Perkins fought for

2343
02:10:34,480 --> 02:10:38,440
Speaker 2: Hemingway's work over objections to his use of profanity. Wow.

2344
02:10:38,640 --> 02:10:41,400
Speaker 2: So without Maxwell Perkins, the world might have been denied

2345
02:10:41,400 --> 02:10:45,080
Speaker 2: the works of both Fitzgerald and Hemingway, and Hemingway would

2346
02:10:45,120 --> 02:10:47,200
Speaker 2: dedicate the Old Man in the Sea of Perkins, who

2347
02:10:47,240 --> 02:10:50,680
Speaker 2: died while it was still being written. Perkins also was

2348
02:10:50,720 --> 02:10:53,760
Speaker 2: responsible for the success of The Yearling Cry the Beloved

2349
02:10:53,800 --> 02:10:58,240
Speaker 2: Country from Here to Eternity, and miss McIntosh, I don't know,

2350
02:10:58,280 --> 02:11:02,560
Speaker 2: Miss McIntosh. His work on Gatsby was immeasurable. In one instance,

2351
02:11:02,600 --> 02:11:05,800
Speaker 2: he gave the classic editor comment, your main character is

2352
02:11:05,840 --> 02:11:09,800
Speaker 2: too vague. Give us some background, provide a convincing explanation

2353
02:11:09,880 --> 02:11:13,360
Speaker 2: for his wealth, which is a classic bit of criticism.

2354
02:11:13,440 --> 02:11:13,600
Speaker 3: There.

2355
02:11:13,600 --> 02:11:15,520
Speaker 2: I feel like every writing class I've ever been in,

2356
02:11:15,560 --> 02:11:17,040
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, it's too vague. I want to why

2357
02:11:17,080 --> 02:11:17,960
Speaker 2: do you care about him?

2358
02:11:18,000 --> 02:11:19,200
Speaker 3: Because I say so?

2359
02:11:20,040 --> 02:11:25,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, trust me. Yeah, Perkins help even stretch

2360
02:11:25,440 --> 02:11:31,480
Speaker 2: the dumb stuff like spelling. Scott was a notoriously terrible speller,

2361
02:11:31,840 --> 02:11:34,120
Speaker 2: and his first draft of The Great Gatsby, set on

2362
02:11:34,160 --> 02:11:37,720
Speaker 2: October twenty seventh, nineteen twenty four, was riddled with spelling

2363
02:11:37,880 --> 02:11:44,000
Speaker 2: errors and typeosts secret idiot, I'm telling your friends. Scott's friend.

2364
02:11:44,000 --> 02:11:47,280
Speaker 2: The literary critic Edmund Wilson called an early draft of

2365
02:11:47,320 --> 02:11:50,200
Speaker 2: This Side of Paradise quote one of the most illiterate

2366
02:11:50,240 --> 02:11:52,040
Speaker 2: books of any merit ever.

2367
02:11:51,920 --> 02:11:55,040
Speaker 3: Published, telling you my theory is looking better and better.

2368
02:11:55,080 --> 02:11:58,600
Speaker 2: Errors presumably corrected. Fitzgerald submitted the final version of what

2369
02:11:58,640 --> 02:12:03,600
Speaker 2: would become The Great Gatsby February nineteen twenty five. Interestingly,

2370
02:12:04,160 --> 02:12:07,520
Speaker 2: to me, at least more than one thousand of Fitzgerald's

2371
02:12:07,520 --> 02:12:10,640
Speaker 2: original punctuation marks were emitted from the novel over the years,

2372
02:12:11,200 --> 02:12:15,040
Speaker 2: and finally an authorized version restored them in nineteen ninety two.

2373
02:12:15,600 --> 02:12:18,160
Speaker 2: I actually noticed that reading some like versions that were

2374
02:12:18,200 --> 02:12:21,240
Speaker 2: scanned in on old paperbacks online to prep for this,

2375
02:12:21,440 --> 02:12:23,960
Speaker 2: there was a disturbing lack of commas. Hmmm.

2376
02:12:24,240 --> 02:12:28,080
Speaker 3: Interesting though. Yeah, it's funny how much leeway editors had

2377
02:12:28,120 --> 02:12:31,280
Speaker 3: around this time. That was a big Raymond Carver guy too,

2378
02:12:31,360 --> 02:12:34,680
Speaker 3: and he had a very specific editor at The New Yorker.

2379
02:12:34,760 --> 02:12:37,920
Speaker 3: And when you like those those comparison drafts have been

2380
02:12:37,920 --> 02:12:43,080
Speaker 3: published and it's like like just seas of red through

2381
02:12:43,120 --> 02:12:45,120
Speaker 3: this and like a more you know, I don't know,

2382
02:12:45,120 --> 02:12:48,000
Speaker 3: a more secure or confident writer might have been like,

2383
02:12:48,120 --> 02:12:50,200
Speaker 3: I'm going to take this elsewhere. Dude, you're getting near

2384
02:12:50,280 --> 02:12:52,040
Speaker 3: like being unnecessarily harsh with this.

2385
02:12:52,920 --> 02:12:56,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting, what because we're so used to editors,

2386
02:12:56,640 --> 02:13:00,560
Speaker 2: like magazine editors who you know that's more for economy

2387
02:13:00,560 --> 02:13:01,200
Speaker 2: of language.

2388
02:13:01,200 --> 02:13:04,560
Speaker 3: And I was gonna say, how do he say this nicely?

2389
02:13:04,720 --> 02:13:07,760
Speaker 3: I'm used to my editors being like make this dumber.

2390
02:13:07,920 --> 02:13:14,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, but or like not get a sued well that

2391
02:13:14,560 --> 02:13:20,600
Speaker 2: those were notes for me, but not necessarily you. The

2392
02:13:20,840 --> 02:13:24,560
Speaker 2: iconic cover of The Great Gatsby, designed by Francis Cugitt,

2393
02:13:24,880 --> 02:13:27,960
Speaker 2: played an important role in shaping the novel itself during

2394
02:13:28,000 --> 02:13:31,800
Speaker 2: the editing process. The design was commissioned by editor Maxwell

2395
02:13:31,800 --> 02:13:35,520
Speaker 2: Perkins months before Scott completed the manuscript, and the artwork

2396
02:13:35,560 --> 02:13:39,520
Speaker 2: featured two sad female eyes and bright red lips floating

2397
02:13:39,520 --> 02:13:42,560
Speaker 2: above a night sky, above a glowing city scape, a

2398
02:13:42,640 --> 02:13:47,000
Speaker 2: lurid blend of Coney Island and Times Square. Fitzgerald was

2399
02:13:47,040 --> 02:13:50,200
Speaker 2: so taken Mcuget's haunting imagery that he rewrote parts of

2400
02:13:50,200 --> 02:13:53,280
Speaker 2: the novel to emphasize the motif of the disembodied eyes

2401
02:13:53,760 --> 02:13:57,160
Speaker 2: culminating in the character of doctor g j Eckelberg and

2402
02:13:57,240 --> 02:14:01,840
Speaker 2: his famous billboard. In fact, Fitzgerald pleaded with Perkins. For

2403
02:14:01,920 --> 02:14:04,880
Speaker 2: Christ's sake, don't give anyone else that jacket you're saving

2404
02:14:04,920 --> 02:14:07,800
Speaker 2: for me. I've written it into the book because I

2405
02:14:07,840 --> 02:14:10,840
Speaker 2: guess in this era, like, yeah, you know, these things

2406
02:14:10,840 --> 02:14:14,600
Speaker 2: are interchangeable for the most part. The inspiration for doctor

2407
02:14:14,640 --> 02:14:18,840
Speaker 2: Eckelberg's eyes likely cave from a real optometrist billboard Fitzgerald

2408
02:14:18,840 --> 02:14:22,760
Speaker 2: had seen in Queens, New York. Hemingway later supported this connection,

2409
02:14:22,920 --> 02:14:25,760
Speaker 2: recalling that Fitzgerald told him that the cover referred to

2410
02:14:25,800 --> 02:14:29,320
Speaker 2: a highway billboard that he's seen out on Long Island,

2411
02:14:29,760 --> 02:14:32,280
Speaker 2: and yeah, these eyes are basically like the all seeing

2412
02:14:32,360 --> 02:14:34,280
Speaker 2: eyes of God kind of in the story.

2413
02:14:34,400 --> 02:14:36,440
Speaker 3: One of my buddies I probably should have mentioned this earlier,

2414
02:14:36,480 --> 02:14:40,520
Speaker 3: but one of my friends from New York and actually

2415
02:14:40,520 --> 02:14:43,360
Speaker 3: the first editor I had in New York when I moved.

2416
02:14:43,400 --> 02:14:47,160
Speaker 3: There is an intern to write at nerve dot com,

2417
02:14:47,160 --> 02:14:50,040
Speaker 3: which is no longer. There is a guy named Peter

2418
02:14:50,840 --> 02:14:56,160
Speaker 3: Malamud Smith, and at one point he became minorly Internet famous,

2419
02:14:56,160 --> 02:14:59,440
Speaker 3: but before I knew him for coding a great Gatsby

2420
02:14:59,840 --> 02:15:03,840
Speaker 3: s NES game with a buddy of his. What or

2421
02:15:03,880 --> 02:15:06,240
Speaker 3: a anys I should say, yeah, have you seen this online?

2422
02:15:06,360 --> 02:15:08,440
Speaker 3: I kind of thought you there's like a fifty to

2423
02:15:08,480 --> 02:15:10,920
Speaker 3: fifty chance because it was it did go quite viral

2424
02:15:11,000 --> 02:15:15,360
Speaker 3: back in the day. And it's so funny. There's all

2425
02:15:15,400 --> 02:15:18,160
Speaker 3: these little cut scenes that are like great job, old sport,

2426
02:15:18,440 --> 02:15:20,919
Speaker 3: and then like you throw it's like a side scroller

2427
02:15:20,960 --> 02:15:21,919
Speaker 3: action actioner.

2428
02:15:22,000 --> 02:15:22,960
Speaker 2: It's just beautiful.

2429
02:15:23,080 --> 02:15:26,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you throw like little bowler hats at characters

2430
02:15:27,000 --> 02:15:31,400
Speaker 3: and the endgame boss is the eyes. It just float

2431
02:15:31,440 --> 02:15:35,080
Speaker 3: around the screen like a Metroid villain or something like

2432
02:15:35,640 --> 02:15:38,480
Speaker 3: shooting shooting energy blast statue.

2433
02:15:39,120 --> 02:15:42,280
Speaker 2: This is incredible. I'm looking at this now. This is amazing.

2434
02:15:42,360 --> 02:15:43,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really it's really awesome.

2435
02:15:44,480 --> 02:15:47,920
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, everybody looked that up. It's the great Gatsby.

2436
02:15:48,000 --> 02:15:50,240
Speaker 2: For Nes is the person that comes up. Wow. Yeah, okay,

2437
02:15:50,240 --> 02:15:51,080
Speaker 2: and that's incredible.

2438
02:15:51,160 --> 02:15:52,840
Speaker 3: I owe a lot to Peter, even though that was

2439
02:15:53,240 --> 02:15:56,120
Speaker 3: Pete that, even though that was a the website was dying,

2440
02:15:56,280 --> 02:15:58,560
Speaker 3: and he was right to leave there when he did,

2441
02:15:58,920 --> 02:16:00,920
Speaker 3: and I left his soon as I could because the

2442
02:16:00,920 --> 02:16:02,280
Speaker 3: thing was just running out of money.

2443
02:16:03,840 --> 02:16:04,040
Speaker 2: You know.

2444
02:16:04,120 --> 02:16:05,680
Speaker 3: He was the first person who gave me like real

2445
02:16:05,720 --> 02:16:09,520
Speaker 3: professional feedback on anything. He's a great editor. So peace,

2446
02:16:09,960 --> 02:16:10,680
Speaker 3: You've done good.

2447
02:16:11,560 --> 02:16:17,640
Speaker 2: You're up there with Maxwell Perkins. The Spanish born Francis Cougant,

2448
02:16:17,640 --> 02:16:21,680
Speaker 2: the artist brother. It's a band leader, Xavier Cugat, Friend

2449
02:16:21,680 --> 02:16:23,760
Speaker 2: of the pod, Xavier Cugen.

2450
02:16:24,280 --> 02:16:27,880
Speaker 3: Wow, I don't follow. You don't know Xavier Cugitt.

2451
02:16:28,400 --> 02:16:31,960
Speaker 2: No, he's like a forties and fifties like exotica band leader.

2452
02:16:32,160 --> 02:16:33,879
Speaker 3: Oh no, okay, good bravo.

2453
02:16:34,480 --> 02:16:36,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh you would like him, you'd be into him.

2454
02:16:36,920 --> 02:16:42,440
Speaker 2: Friend of the pod, Xavier cugen it's a joke for

2455
02:16:42,480 --> 02:16:48,560
Speaker 2: one person. Uh. He had no notable career in book illustration,

2456
02:16:48,560 --> 02:16:56,080
Speaker 2: Francis cug In fact, in book illustration, this was like

2457
02:16:56,120 --> 02:16:57,600
Speaker 2: the only thing that he ever did.

2458
02:16:57,760 --> 02:16:59,320
Speaker 3: Well, we love a one hit wonder.

2459
02:16:59,360 --> 02:17:03,120
Speaker 2: Come on. He later worked as a technicolor consultant on

2460
02:17:03,160 --> 02:17:07,240
Speaker 2: over sixty Hollywood films. Despite this, his work for Gatsby

2461
02:17:07,280 --> 02:17:11,160
Speaker 2: became legendary. He was paid one hundred dollars or seventeen

2462
02:17:11,240 --> 02:17:13,760
Speaker 2: hundred dollars today, but after that it was his one

2463
02:17:13,800 --> 02:17:16,959
Speaker 2: and done. He never created another book jacket. His design

2464
02:17:17,080 --> 02:17:22,280
Speaker 2: was initially forgotten after Gatsby's Lukewarm nineteen twenty five initial publication,

2465
02:17:22,760 --> 02:17:25,200
Speaker 2: but it was revived by Charles Scribner the third for

2466
02:17:25,240 --> 02:17:29,160
Speaker 2: his classic nineteen seventy nine reissue, securing its place in

2467
02:17:29,240 --> 02:17:31,720
Speaker 2: literary history, and it's still used today.

2468
02:17:31,800 --> 02:17:33,839
Speaker 3: We've had that many goddamn scribners.

2469
02:17:34,520 --> 02:17:40,039
Speaker 2: Yeah. A sketch of the cover salvage from a publishing

2470
02:17:40,080 --> 02:17:47,160
Speaker 2: house garbage bin by George Schliefen now resides at Princeton University. Interestingly,

2471
02:17:47,200 --> 02:17:50,520
Speaker 2: Fitzgerald never saw the final painting before publication, but his

2472
02:17:50,600 --> 02:17:54,160
Speaker 2: early drafts influenced them profoundly. The green light at the

2473
02:17:54,240 --> 02:17:57,120
Speaker 2: end of Daisy's dock, which is another crucial symbol green

2474
02:17:57,320 --> 02:18:03,279
Speaker 2: for go, moving forward, achieving, running, racing, rot right.

2475
02:18:04,360 --> 02:18:10,879
Speaker 3: Sorry, Sepsis, I can play word association games too, fitsy.

2476
02:18:11,879 --> 02:18:15,920
Speaker 2: That came from Francis Kucat's painting as well, and through

2477
02:18:15,959 --> 02:18:18,960
Speaker 2: symbols like the billboard and the green light, Fitzgerald critiqued

2478
02:18:19,000 --> 02:18:23,560
Speaker 2: the new American consumer culture, where marketing and materialism reigned supreme.

2479
02:18:23,800 --> 02:18:25,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, get their ass.

2480
02:18:25,560 --> 02:18:31,520
Speaker 2: Hemingway did not share his admiration for this cover. In

2481
02:18:31,560 --> 02:18:35,039
Speaker 2: his memoir A Removable Feast, he remembered being embarrassed by what

2482
02:18:35,120 --> 02:18:38,680
Speaker 2: he described as quote the ugliest jacket he'd ever seen,

2483
02:18:39,240 --> 02:18:41,120
Speaker 2: comparing it to bad science fiction.

2484
02:18:41,640 --> 02:18:44,760
Speaker 3: I just I love Hemyway because despite being these like

2485
02:18:44,920 --> 02:18:49,440
Speaker 3: uber macho like I shoot sharks with a machine gun

2486
02:18:49,480 --> 02:18:52,080
Speaker 3: from the end of my doc and I will box anyone.

2487
02:18:52,480 --> 02:18:54,400
Speaker 2: He's so caddy caddy.

2488
02:18:54,560 --> 02:18:59,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's like a post like a mid century post gossom,

2489
02:18:59,200 --> 02:19:01,480
Speaker 3: like he is a gossip columnist.

2490
02:19:01,800 --> 02:19:07,840
Speaker 2: You know, yes, yes. Nevertheless, he acknowledged its thematic connection

2491
02:19:07,920 --> 02:19:16,320
Speaker 2: to the novel's haunting vision of loss and disillusionment big grudgingly. Yes, certainly, uh, okay,

2492
02:19:16,720 --> 02:19:17,280
Speaker 2: the right out.

2493
02:19:17,400 --> 02:19:19,960
Speaker 3: So Scott was extremely under the cover of his book,

2494
02:19:20,360 --> 02:19:23,560
Speaker 3: But the title not so much. In retrospect, the name

2495
02:19:23,600 --> 02:19:26,760
Speaker 3: of The Great Gatsby seems like a slam dunk. It's alliterative, Scot,

2496
02:19:26,760 --> 02:19:31,599
Speaker 3: the word great in there. Yeah, Gatsby's a good mouth sound.

2497
02:19:31,320 --> 02:19:33,880
Speaker 2: To it, good mouthfeel, good mouthfeel.

2498
02:19:33,959 --> 02:19:36,240
Speaker 3: But it was extremely late the game before Scott settled

2499
02:19:36,240 --> 02:19:38,760
Speaker 3: on it, and he remained quite ambivalent towards it even

2500
02:19:38,800 --> 02:19:41,680
Speaker 3: after he did. Considering this was a guy who's working

2501
02:19:41,680 --> 02:19:45,280
Speaker 3: title for his first book was The Romantic Egotist, it

2502
02:19:45,400 --> 02:19:48,879
Speaker 3: is safe to say that f struggled a little bit

2503
02:19:49,040 --> 02:19:52,880
Speaker 3: with his titles. Early proposed titles for The Great Gatsby,

2504
02:19:52,879 --> 02:19:57,960
Speaker 3: accordingly include such whack as on the Road to West Egg,

2505
02:19:58,840 --> 02:20:02,800
Speaker 3: the High Bouncing Lover, and actually this one kind of

2506
02:20:02,840 --> 02:20:07,039
Speaker 3: whips among the ash heaps and millionaires. I'm pretty sure

2507
02:20:07,040 --> 02:20:14,760
Speaker 3: that's a my chemical romance song. But yeah. The high

2508
02:20:14,800 --> 02:20:17,560
Speaker 3: Bouncing Lover is a line from the famous epigraph that

2509
02:20:17,640 --> 02:20:20,440
Speaker 3: opens The Great Catsby. Then wear the gold hat. If

2510
02:20:20,440 --> 02:20:23,640
Speaker 3: that will move her, if you can bounce high, bounce

2511
02:20:23,680 --> 02:20:28,400
Speaker 3: for her too, till she cry, lover, gold hatted, high

2512
02:20:28,400 --> 02:20:33,240
Speaker 3: Bouncing Lover, I must have you. It is credited to

2513
02:20:33,280 --> 02:20:37,960
Speaker 3: the poet Thomas park Dinvilliers, and if you're unfamiliar with

2514
02:20:38,000 --> 02:20:41,039
Speaker 3: his work, there's a good reason for that. He doesn't exist.

2515
02:20:41,879 --> 02:20:44,600
Speaker 3: He was a character in Fitzgerald's debut novel, This Side

2516
02:20:44,600 --> 02:20:48,320
Speaker 3: of Paradise, And that's a neat bit of a meditextual

2517
02:20:48,320 --> 02:20:51,039
Speaker 3: engagement with your own work, and also a really piece

2518
02:20:51,080 --> 02:20:55,879
Speaker 3: of poetry. Did he think that was good anyway? John

2519
02:20:55,879 --> 02:20:58,000
Speaker 3: Green later pulled a similar trick by citing a couplet

2520
02:20:58,000 --> 02:20:59,880
Speaker 3: by a fictional poet in his book The Fault in

2521
02:21:00,080 --> 02:21:04,160
Speaker 3: Our Stars. Other titles that were considered included gold Hatted Gatsby,

2522
02:21:04,760 --> 02:21:09,560
Speaker 3: even simply Gatsby, and for a while, if preferred title

2523
02:21:09,720 --> 02:21:14,000
Speaker 3: was Trimalchio in West Egg. If that name leaves you

2524
02:21:14,040 --> 02:21:15,800
Speaker 3: scratching your head, then you're not alone.

2525
02:21:15,920 --> 02:21:19,440
Speaker 2: Don't worry. The original Trimalchio was a character in a

2526
02:21:19,680 --> 02:21:24,440
Speaker 2: first century work of fiction called Satyricon. Trimalchio worked hard

2527
02:21:24,440 --> 02:21:27,080
Speaker 2: to make his fortune, which he flaunted with lavish parties.

2528
02:21:27,640 --> 02:21:28,600
Speaker 2: The comparison makes.

2529
02:21:28,440 --> 02:21:30,880
Speaker 3: Sense when you have the context, and Scott even name

2530
02:21:30,959 --> 02:21:34,120
Speaker 3: dropped the character in the text of the book. A

2531
02:21:34,160 --> 02:21:36,560
Speaker 3: little bit of a deep cut there f after the

2532
02:21:36,640 --> 02:21:39,280
Speaker 3: lights failed to turn on to announce another Gatsby party,

2533
02:21:40,000 --> 02:21:42,760
Speaker 3: he writes in the book, obscurely as it began his

2534
02:21:42,800 --> 02:21:47,040
Speaker 3: career as Trimalchio was over. Trimalchio is referenced in Les

2535
02:21:47,040 --> 02:21:49,560
Speaker 3: Miz and Henry Miller's Black Spring, as well as the

2536
02:21:49,600 --> 02:21:53,560
Speaker 3: works of HP Lovecraft and Octavio Paz. You know, nerds,

2537
02:21:55,200 --> 02:21:58,120
Speaker 3: but Scott's trusty editor, Maxwell Perkins argued that few would

2538
02:21:58,160 --> 02:22:01,240
Speaker 3: be able to understand the reference, and moreover, worried that

2539
02:22:01,240 --> 02:22:03,720
Speaker 3: people wouldn't even pronounce it. I don't think I am

2540
02:22:03,760 --> 02:22:10,360
Speaker 3: either Tramalchio, Tramalchio, Tramailchio, trammel Quillo, leading them to refrain

2541
02:22:10,360 --> 02:22:13,960
Speaker 3: from asking for it at stores. Something that's bad for business. Yeah,

2542
02:22:14,000 --> 02:22:16,280
Speaker 3: give me the tromauk, Jimmy, the give me the true,

2543
02:22:17,000 --> 02:22:17,640
Speaker 3: give me Sun.

2544
02:22:17,520 --> 02:22:20,240
Speaker 2: Also rises just kidding.

2545
02:22:20,520 --> 02:22:24,480
Speaker 3: I'm just kidding. We're having fun here. Interestingly, there are

2546
02:22:24,480 --> 02:22:26,879
Speaker 3: a few early printings of Gatsby that actually include the

2547
02:22:26,920 --> 02:22:30,279
Speaker 3: trimalchio title. Presumably these are worth an insane.

2548
02:22:29,920 --> 02:22:30,680
Speaker 2: Amount of money.

2549
02:22:31,160 --> 02:22:33,800
Speaker 3: The eventual title was supposedly inspired by even more nerge

2550
02:22:34,640 --> 02:22:39,879
Speaker 3: French author Alain Fournier's book Le Grande Mellions or The

2551
02:22:39,959 --> 02:22:41,760
Speaker 3: Great Millions.

2552
02:22:42,280 --> 02:22:44,440
Speaker 2: I don't know what that word transitions. I think it's

2553
02:22:44,440 --> 02:22:46,039
Speaker 2: a guy's name that sounds stupid.

2554
02:22:46,160 --> 02:22:48,560
Speaker 3: Interestingly, this book has a lot of parallels to Gatsby,

2555
02:22:48,680 --> 02:22:50,840
Speaker 3: and the author died young during World War One.

2556
02:22:50,879 --> 02:22:52,279
Speaker 2: Just as Scott feared he would.

2557
02:22:53,280 --> 02:22:55,640
Speaker 3: Scott didn't feel great about this title, and three weeks

2558
02:22:55,680 --> 02:22:57,560
Speaker 3: before the book was due to be published, he asked

2559
02:22:57,640 --> 02:23:00,880
Speaker 3: Perkins if they could change the title to Under the Red,

2560
02:23:00,959 --> 02:23:06,360
Speaker 3: White and Blue, perhaps a nod to his famous relative,

2561
02:23:06,640 --> 02:23:10,080
Speaker 3: Francis Scott Key. However, it was too late to change,

2562
02:23:10,160 --> 02:23:13,280
Speaker 3: and The Great Gatsby was released on April tenth, nineteen

2563
02:23:13,400 --> 02:23:17,480
Speaker 3: twenty five. Just as a fun little game, let's see

2564
02:23:17,480 --> 02:23:21,200
Speaker 3: what happened on this day in history. Okay, here's one

2565
02:23:21,200 --> 02:23:26,000
Speaker 3: for you. April tenth, nineteen twelve. The Titanic set sail. Yeah,

2566
02:23:26,200 --> 02:23:29,160
Speaker 3: I know, here's one for losers. April tenth, nineteen sixteen,

2567
02:23:29,320 --> 02:23:31,959
Speaker 3: The PGA is created in New York City, the Professional

2568
02:23:32,000 --> 02:23:39,240
Speaker 3: Golf Association. Here's one for Tyranny. April tenth, nineteen nineteen.

2569
02:23:39,320 --> 02:23:42,279
Speaker 3: I Leono Zapata is ambushed and shot dead by government

2570
02:23:42,320 --> 02:23:43,199
Speaker 3: forces in Mexico.

2571
02:23:43,640 --> 02:23:48,040
Speaker 2: Viva Zapata, Vivas Apata. Indeed, Oh well, here's one. April tenth,

2572
02:23:48,080 --> 02:23:48,800
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty nine.

2573
02:23:48,840 --> 02:23:51,879
Speaker 3: Alcoholics Anonymous published the first edition of their Big Book,

2574
02:23:52,040 --> 02:23:55,200
Speaker 3: which introduced the twelve set program.

2575
02:23:55,720 --> 02:23:58,760
Speaker 2: Look At nineteen seventy. I see in the recall, No

2576
02:23:59,160 --> 02:23:59,760
Speaker 2: Yeah Fine.

2577
02:24:00,000 --> 02:24:03,240
Speaker 3: April tenth, nineteen seventy Paul McCartney announces he's leaving the

2578
02:24:03,280 --> 02:24:07,480
Speaker 3: Beatles for personal professional reasons. April tenth, nineteen seventy one.

2579
02:24:07,879 --> 02:24:11,320
Speaker 3: Ping Pong diplomacy. In an attempt to fall relations with

2580
02:24:11,360 --> 02:24:14,440
Speaker 3: the United States, China hosts the US table tennis team

2581
02:24:14,480 --> 02:24:18,560
Speaker 3: for a week long visit April tenth, nineteen seventy two,

2582
02:24:19,200 --> 02:24:21,640
Speaker 3: for the first time in five years. American B fifty

2583
02:24:21,640 --> 02:24:25,440
Speaker 3: two bombers begin bombing North Vietnam April tenth, nineteen eighty one.

2584
02:24:26,080 --> 02:24:30,080
Speaker 3: Imprisoned Ira hunger striker Bobby Sands is elected to Westminster

2585
02:24:30,120 --> 02:24:34,199
Speaker 3: as the MP for cities in Northern Ireland and dies

2586
02:24:34,240 --> 02:24:35,280
Speaker 3: twenty six days later.

2587
02:24:35,280 --> 02:24:36,360
Speaker 2: All right, let's see what else we got.

2588
02:24:36,400 --> 02:24:41,320
Speaker 3: April tenth, twenty ten, Polish Air Force TU one five

2589
02:24:41,360 --> 02:24:45,039
Speaker 3: to four M crashes near Smolensk, Russia, killing ninety six people,

2590
02:24:45,080 --> 02:24:49,480
Speaker 3: including their president, his wife, dozens of other senior officials

2591
02:24:49,480 --> 02:24:55,760
Speaker 3: and dignitaries. Reports suggest that Kazinski, as the president was named,

2592
02:24:55,800 --> 02:24:58,680
Speaker 3: attempted to open the door and step.

2593
02:24:58,360 --> 02:24:59,360
Speaker 2: Out for a smoke.

2594
02:25:00,480 --> 02:25:02,520
Speaker 3: That's the longest build up to a Polish joke. I

2595
02:25:02,520 --> 02:25:04,760
Speaker 3: think we've ever done, anyone has ever done.

2596
02:25:04,800 --> 02:25:05,879
Speaker 2: Maybe.

2597
02:25:06,640 --> 02:25:10,280
Speaker 3: April tenth, twenty nineteen, scientists from the Event Horizon Telscope

2598
02:25:10,280 --> 02:25:12,879
Speaker 3: project project the first ever image of a black hole.

2599
02:25:13,400 --> 02:25:15,800
Speaker 3: All right, I'm bored.

2600
02:25:17,720 --> 02:25:20,480
Speaker 2: Part two, Yes, folks, we'll pick it up on our

2601
02:25:20,520 --> 02:25:23,760
Speaker 2: next episode, when you will learn about how this great

2602
02:25:23,800 --> 02:25:27,280
Speaker 2: work of literature was nearly confined to the trash heap,

2603
02:25:27,400 --> 02:25:29,240
Speaker 2: the ash heap, if you will.

2604
02:25:29,840 --> 02:25:34,160
Speaker 3: History of the printed page, yes, before being rescued by

2605
02:25:34,200 --> 02:25:34,800
Speaker 3: the true.

2606
02:25:34,560 --> 02:25:39,240
Speaker 2: American art form. The movies. Well, no, the war, actually,

2607
02:25:39,879 --> 02:25:42,400
Speaker 2: the war and the movies, well we will talk about

2608
02:25:42,840 --> 02:25:45,400
Speaker 2: all right, Well, no spoilers, come on, Okay, sorry. Well,

2609
02:25:45,440 --> 02:25:46,880
Speaker 2: now we got to get teasers to get people that

2610
02:25:46,920 --> 02:25:48,480
Speaker 2: want to come back, because part to whatever we do

2611
02:25:48,520 --> 02:25:49,119
Speaker 2: two parters.

2612
02:25:49,240 --> 02:25:51,600
Speaker 3: Oh, people never come back? Okay, all right, well they do,

2613
02:25:51,640 --> 02:25:54,400
Speaker 3: all right, Part two, The Great Gatsby. It's got sex,

2614
02:25:54,600 --> 02:25:56,240
Speaker 3: it's got violence.

2615
02:25:56,240 --> 02:26:01,120
Speaker 2: It's got Scott's sad end Scott, it's alcoholism, it's got Yeah,

2616
02:26:01,720 --> 02:26:03,720
Speaker 2: you'll hear more of what happens when he reunites with

2617
02:26:03,760 --> 02:26:05,240
Speaker 2: the love that inspired Daisy.

2618
02:26:05,520 --> 02:26:07,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's gonna be a lot of a lot of

2619
02:26:07,840 --> 02:26:12,560
Speaker 3: post post jazz age, pre World War two sadness. You'll

2620
02:26:12,600 --> 02:26:13,160
Speaker 3: get a lot of.

2621
02:26:13,120 --> 02:26:17,280
Speaker 2: Apps, a woman's burned alive and a psich word, you know. Yeah,

2622
02:26:17,400 --> 02:26:17,840
Speaker 2: there'll be.

2623
02:26:20,440 --> 02:26:25,440
Speaker 3: Dogs maybe did they ever own dogs?

2624
02:26:25,640 --> 02:26:25,879
Speaker 2: Uh?

2625
02:26:26,080 --> 02:26:29,440
Speaker 3: Leon Leonardo DiCaprio nudes in our next episode. If you

2626
02:26:29,520 --> 02:26:32,440
Speaker 3: listen all the way through, we'll send you his nudes.

2627
02:26:32,440 --> 02:26:35,080
Speaker 2: You will hear leon nude. Oh, they don't know.

2628
02:26:37,200 --> 02:26:41,280
Speaker 3: That's how we get them. That. That'll hold off of

2629
02:26:41,520 --> 02:26:42,400
Speaker 3: SOVS for a while.

2630
02:26:44,000 --> 02:26:51,440
Speaker 2: Yes, folks, so we beat on the current podcast hosts

2631
02:26:52,200 --> 02:26:58,119
Speaker 2: against our fraying vocal cords. Yea born ceaselessly back into

2632
02:26:58,160 --> 02:27:02,760
Speaker 2: our throats. You're welcome. I'm Alex Heigel and I'm Jordan Runtog.

2633
02:27:03,120 --> 02:27:04,240
Speaker 2: We'll catch you next time.

2634
02:27:09,520 --> 02:27:12,039
Speaker 1: Too Much Information was a production of iHeart Radio.

2635
02:27:12,280 --> 02:27:14,119
Speaker 3: The show's executive producers.

2636
02:27:13,720 --> 02:27:15,480
Speaker 2: Are Noel Brown and Jordan Runtalk.

2637
02:27:15,680 --> 02:27:18,560
Speaker 1: The show's supervising producer is Michael Alder June.

2638
02:27:18,800 --> 02:27:21,400
Speaker 3: The show was researched and written and hosted by Jordan

2639
02:27:21,480 --> 02:27:23,039
Speaker 3: Runtog and Alex Heigel.

2640
02:27:22,879 --> 02:27:26,119
Speaker 1: With original music by Seth Applebaum and the Ghost Funk Orchestra.

2641
02:27:26,440 --> 02:27:28,480
Speaker 1: If you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave

2642
02:27:28,560 --> 02:27:29,039
Speaker 1: us a review.

2643
02:27:29,320 --> 02:27:33,600
Speaker 2: For more podcasts on iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

2644
02:27:33,840 --> 02:27:35,560
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows