1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: All media, welcome back to it could happen here. 2 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 2: I am, once again Robert Evans talking about it happening 3 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 2: here and in the case of today, because we mean 4 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: something different every time I introduce the show. That way, 5 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 2: we're talking about the carcerral state and the worst reactive 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: impulses of society coming for people who use drugs recreationally, 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 2: who either have a problem or don't with them and 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 2: simply don't want to go to prison for it. And 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 2: specifically we're talking about all of that within the context 10 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 2: of the state of Oregon, where I reside, because back 11 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty, the state of Oregon passed a measure, 12 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 2: the first in the nation, decriminalizing all simple possession and 13 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 2: use of street drugs. So heroin, methamphetamine, marijuana was already legal, 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 2: but you know everything is. You can't get arrested for 15 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 2: simple posession of small amounts of stuff, right, That's the 16 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 2: gist of the law. This passed by a pretty wide margin, 17 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 2: fifty eight points something percent of Oregonians voted for it. 18 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 2: It was a ballot measure, not something the legislature pushed through, 19 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 2: and it came as Oregon, like the rest of the country, 20 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 2: was kind of wrapped in the grip of an escalating 21 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 2: drug crisis. In twenty twenty, and again that's before the 22 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 2: ballot measure passed, Oregon had the second highest rate of 23 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 2: drug addiction in the country and ranked nearly last in 24 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 2: access to treatment. From twenty nineteen to twenty twenty, opioid 25 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 2: overdose deaths in Oregon increased by about seventy percent. So 26 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 2: that makes the case that the problem prior to the 27 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 2: ballot measure was pretty severe and that the current state 28 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 2: of affairs, which was everything was illegal and you could 29 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 2: go to jail for possession of, say, heroin, was not 30 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 2: working out for anybody. However, in the years since the 31 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 2: ballot measure passed, overdoses have continued to rise in Oregon, 32 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 2: and miraculously, almost the drug problem did not solve itself overnight. 33 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 2: Now we're gonna be talking about some reasons for that. 34 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 2: But now it is time for me to introduce our 35 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 2: guest for the episode, Oregon Public Defender Grant Hartley Grant, 36 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. Yeah, thanks for having me, Robert, Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, 37 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 2: first off, I wanted to say, from where you're standing 38 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 2: as somebody whose job is to represent Oregonians generally with 39 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 2: the least resources who were charged with crimes. What were 40 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 2: you saying prior to one ten and what are you 41 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 2: saying after it? 42 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: Well, I think prior to one ten, we had, you know, 43 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: a population similar to what we have now, which is 44 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: individuals who were struggling with houselessness, with housing instability, who 45 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: were struggling with mental health. And as a result of 46 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: many of those factors and others were copied with substances, 47 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,399 Speaker 1: and as a result of that, many of them would 48 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: get wrapped into the legal system. And one of the 49 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: issues with our legal system is that it is based 50 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: on and so when someone came into the system with 51 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: a drug problem, our first reaction is to compel them 52 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: into treatment, to force them into treatment, even though we 53 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: know that that is not effective, and you know at 54 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: times it can be. And generally where you see the 55 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: most success with it is where there's more hanging over 56 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: the person's head, more leverage that the system has. And so, 57 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: you know, somebody who has a substance use disorder and 58 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: commits a robbery and is put on probation, and they 59 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: have a choice between going to prison and doing treatment, 60 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: much more likely to engage in treatment. But when you 61 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: have low level possession, where as a society we've deemed 62 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: that that should not be punished by prison, and frankly 63 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: that should not be punished by jail. The problem is 64 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: is that the only tool that the system has is jail, 65 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: and so if somebody says I'm not ready for treatment, 66 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: the system says, well, we're going to put you in 67 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: jail then, and then they go to jail, what little 68 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: they have is destabilized and they get out without any treatment. 69 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: And as you mentioned in the opening, the biggest thing 70 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: is just the incredible dearth of services in our community. 71 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: There is not nearly enough outpatient treatment, but especially in 72 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: patient treatment, and that's important for those houseless folks, because 73 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: you can't expect somebody to engage in outpatient treatment and 74 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: then go back and sleep on the street at night 75 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: and not use So I know that's I think the 76 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: general gist of what it looked like. 77 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's all really important to keep in mind, 78 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 2: and it's particularly important the reason we're doing this episode 79 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: is because the last two years really is when it's escalated. 80 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: We have seen this increasing and very organized campaign against 81 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: One ten and it's being pushed by the police who 82 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: are angry that they're not able to arrest more people, 83 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 2: particularly more homeless people. It's pushed by a lot of 84 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 2: business owners who have convinced themselves that the reason why 85 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 2: downtown port That has had such a hard couple of 86 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 2: years is because there's too many homeless people and they 87 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: can go after them and get them off the street 88 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 2: by having them arrested. This is all my opinion, not 89 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 2: yours here, but there has been What is not up 90 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 2: for opinion is that there has been an escalating campaign 91 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 2: to portray the measure as a disaster and to portray 92 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 2: it as the center of particularly Portland's ills, but also 93 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 2: more broadly the state of Oregon's ills. And I think 94 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 2: there's a number of reasons why that's dishonest, which we'll 95 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 2: talk about. But where that's kind of culminated now is 96 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 2: this year. There are two big pushes to get rid 97 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 2: of one ten. One of them is the push by 98 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,119 Speaker 2: a ballot measure, or to put out a ballot measure 99 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 2: basically repealing one ten as it exists, and the other 100 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: is a push by the legislature. And you kind of 101 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 2: have separate plans pushed by the DIMS and the Republicans 102 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 2: to in the case of the Republican plan, basically put 103 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 2: things back to the way they were, if not more 104 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: severe in terms of your ability to arrest people for possession. 105 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 2: And the Democrats' plans is to recriminalize possession but make 106 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 2: it all basically the lowest level of misdemeanor. I don't 107 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 2: think either of those are good plans, But I wanted 108 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 2: to talk about kind of how you would characterize the 109 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: backlash campaign against one ten and how much of it 110 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 2: do you think is rooted in actual problems caused by 111 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 2: the measure? 112 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: No, I mean it is caused the most of the backlash. 113 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: I would agree with you that it is a lot 114 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: of business communities, but it's also just you know, average 115 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: Portlanders because what they see is people on the streets struggling, 116 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 1: using drugs in public because that is the only place 117 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: that they can use drugs, and you know, that's a 118 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: problem of houselessness. They people have to ask themselves, am 119 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: I upset that I'm seeing somebody use drugs? Or am 120 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: I upset that this person is sleeping on the street 121 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: and needing to use the drugs in the street. And 122 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: that is the same of business owners. You know, they 123 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: call and complain that there's somebody on the stoop next 124 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: to them using fentanyl, But is the issue that that 125 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,359 Speaker 1: person is using fentanyl or is the issue that that 126 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: person is on the stoop next to them? Because there 127 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: are no housing services in our city, and so really 128 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: Measure one ten is being scapegoaded for two huge issues, 129 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: which is the influx of synthetic heroin or fentanyl into 130 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: our community and into every community around the nation. It 131 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: is not restricted to Portland or to Oregon because we decriminalized, 132 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: it is everywhere. And then just the houselessness crisis, which 133 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: is tremendous in our city. It is so bad, and 134 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: people are essentially arguing that because we decriminalize drugs, more 135 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: people are on the street, and I just don't think 136 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: that there is any data to support that. 137 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think part of the reason why people 138 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: suspect that is again because of how much dramatically worse 139 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: the problem has gotten in recent years. But it's gotten 140 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 2: worse everywhere. It's gotten worse in states like Oklahoma, where 141 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 2: it is and has remain very illegal to possess this stuff. 142 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 2: Oregon is not the state with the worst death problem 143 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 2: due to drugs per capita and the states that are 144 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 2: worse or are worse in various ways, are all states 145 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: in which it's criminalized. It's very frustrated to me when 146 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: you look at like, well, we passed one ten in 147 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 2: twenty twenty, and these problems have gotten worse since, and 148 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 2: it's like, well, but these are all problems that have 149 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 2: gotten worse everywhere, and they're problems that are not driven 150 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 2: by legality or at least the fact that it's no 151 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 2: longer criminal to possess heroin. It's driven by the fact 152 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 2: that we had a horrible pandemic that traumatized people. They 153 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 2: lost loved ones, they lost jobs, they lost support. It's 154 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 2: driven by the fact that the price of housing continues 155 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 2: to rise. It's driven by inflation. It's driven by the 156 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 2: fact that, I mean, to no small part, everybody's got 157 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 2: brain worms from social media. That's not a zero percent 158 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 2: factor in both people's anger at the houseless and in 159 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 2: the fact that people are falling through the cracks. Like 160 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 2: we have a million different things. I don't mean the 161 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 2: list that is a comprehensive list of our problems either, 162 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 2: like drug addiction and drug deaths due to overdoses are 163 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: caused by a variety of things. And one of the 164 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 2: reasons why the death rate has been so high is 165 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 2: that if you're addicted to heroin, you can't just stop 166 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 2: doing heroin or the consequences are really, really horrible, worse 167 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 2: than a lot of people are going to deal with. 168 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 2: And so people keep using, and they keep getting drugs 169 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 2: that have been tainted with fentanyl, and it's hard not 170 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: to die doing that. Like, rich people can continue to 171 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 2: test their kids. People who are you know, have had 172 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 2: the benefit of not just education, but a stable home 173 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 2: in which to do drugs and sort of the resources 174 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 2: to know and to be able to test their shit, 175 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 2: will test their shit. But most street level users don't 176 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 2: have that kind of option. And it frustrates me that 177 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 2: it's all getting scapegoaded on this ballot measure, And so 178 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 2: I wanted to talk a little bit about how they're 179 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 2: attempting to go after one ten because it looks like 180 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 2: right now the primary threat is legislative, in part because 181 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 2: if they push another ballot measure, Oregonians get to vote 182 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 2: and we'll see how they vote. But reversing it by ten, 183 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 2: you know, almost a ten percent lead, is not an 184 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 2: easy thing to do. And I kind of think Oregonians 185 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 2: might surprise them in terms of not being willing to 186 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 2: repeal this thing legislatively. We don't have really that kind 187 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 2: of option against it. If they're able to get a 188 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 2: kind of enough people behind an essential repeal, and they'll 189 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 2: frame it as you know, we're just trying to tinker 190 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 2: with the law to make it work better. But if 191 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 2: they can get enough people behind that, there's really nothing 192 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 2: to do about it, right, Yeah, Yeah. 193 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,839 Speaker 1: And I think you know, one of the things that, 194 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: in my opinion was a strategy on the part of 195 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: the opponents of one ten was I mean, they have 196 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: some very wealthy financial backers, yes, and so you know 197 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: it is not cheap to do a ballot measure, and 198 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: you know, they know that they can use that money 199 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 1: to do media buys and to spread all of the 200 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: misinformation that they've been spreading thus far. And I think 201 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: that frankly, there are people in the legislature that don't 202 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 1: want to recriminalize but feel that it is the lesser 203 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: of two evils. And the unfortunate thing is that what 204 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: we are essentially doing is delivering them a watered down 205 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: version of that ballot measure. And they were intentional in 206 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: that ballot measure. I mean, they made it as bad 207 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: as could be that it includes more than just recriminalization. 208 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: You know, it includes what is commonly known as lend 209 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: bias law in federal courts, which is essentially that people 210 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: who deliver a substance that causes an overdose can be 211 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: prosecuted essentially for murder. And it is a archaic understanding 212 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: of how the distribution of drugs works or the testing 213 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: of drugs works, And so they tried to make it 214 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: as bad as possible in order for the legislature to 215 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: essentially go, well, we don't want that to happen. And 216 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: you know I would worry about a ballot measure. I mean, 217 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 1: I agree with you that it's a big swing, and 218 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: I have faith in the voters of Oregon. But the 219 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: fact is is that the media has portrayed this very unfair. 220 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: You know, there was there was an article recently from 221 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: the editorial board at the Oregonian and they advocated for recriminalization, 222 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: and in it they cited that they want a data 223 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: driven approach. There was not a piece of data in 224 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: that article. It was all based on misinformation. And the 225 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: same is true. I mean, law enforcement are the worst 226 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: about this. You know, they're they're constantly saying, oh, well, 227 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: we just want tools so that we can confiscate the 228 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: drugs and so that we can refer people to treatment, 229 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: because we all know that's all police officers want to do. 230 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: And yet when you look at the E citations that 231 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: came out of Measure one ten, those were meant as 232 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: to be a referral tool. And that was one of 233 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: the big mistakes of one ten is trying to use 234 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: police officers as an ambassador for treatment. There is a 235 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: culture in the police community that it treats drugs as crimes. Right, 236 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: you are a criminal if you are a drug user, 237 00:12:58,200 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: and I am not. You know, I'm not saying police 238 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: are monolith. I'm saying that is the culture that exists. 239 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: And to expect them to change that overnight because the 240 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: voters said they wanted to decriminalize was rather naive and 241 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: it's obvious because just here in Maltnoma County, I think 242 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: in basically a twenty four month period they issued something 243 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: like nine hundred E citations or that was during a 244 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: thirty month period, excuse me. And during a twenty four 245 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: month period in twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen, they arrested 246 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: more than thirty three hundred people on PCs and that 247 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: is what nearly three times more than three times as 248 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: many people when they were able to put handcuffs on 249 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: the people that they were meeting with, and Maltnoma County 250 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: was actually better than a most you look at Washington County, 251 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: seventy one et citations in thirty months. Seventy one tickets 252 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: were given on this and the ticket was supposed to 253 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: be the tool by which somebody is referred to treatment. 254 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: And so you know, in some ways measure one to 255 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: ten heads and serious structural and implementation issues, but that 256 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that we just go back to what the 257 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: voters saw. 258 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 2: One of the things that was the biggest issue in 259 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 2: implementation is that a lot of funds were supposed to 260 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 2: be redirected, I think from marijuana sales was one of 261 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 2: the places to treatment facilities and treatment options for people 262 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 2: like these people who are supposed to be getting tickets 263 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 2: instead of arrested for drug use were supposed to being 264 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 2: kind of pushed gently towards options, but the actual money 265 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 2: for those options took more than a year to start arriving, 266 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 2: and it is still not at a very good clip. 267 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 2: And there's a number of reasons for this. But like 268 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 2: when they frame it as like will be decriminalized stuff, 269 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 2: and all these problems kept getting worse, It's like, well, 270 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 2: for one thing, they kept getting worse. They were getting 271 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 2: worse when everything was illegal at a rapid pace. And 272 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 2: number two, you didn't do what was supposed to be 273 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 2: half of the measure, which was increasing the amount of 274 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 2: care that people had access to. 275 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And would to hear people talk about it now. 276 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: I mean during a legislative committee, I think there was 277 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: one representative or senator who say to take well, why 278 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: did it take so long for this to get implemented? 279 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: It was twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. Like people 280 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: are quickly forgetting how chaotic things were that And the 281 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: other thing is that when you put that money into 282 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: the system, it takes a while to build beds, to 283 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: hire people to do that. And what the opponents of 284 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: one ten are doing, what the people seeking to recriminalize 285 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: or doing, and they're really preying on our collective impatience. 286 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: It's they're saying, oh, well, you know, nobody is going 287 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: and voluntarily engaging in treatment, therefore we must mandate it 288 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: and again, no one's voluntarily engaging in treatment because there's 289 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: no treatment available to voluntarily engage in. And the idea 290 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: that by making it criminal we can somehow fix that 291 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: is actually counterproductive because we're taking all those funds that 292 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: we could be putting into additional services into outreach, and 293 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: we're instead putting it back into law enforcement or into probation, 294 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: or into the jails or into the state lab to 295 00:15:58,600 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: test these drugs. 296 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 2: And I want to continue off of that, and I 297 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 2: want to talk bring out some more data too, but 298 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 2: first we have to go do a plug to ads. 299 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 2: So here's ads, folks, all right, we are back. We're back, 300 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 2: And I wanted to I think there's two really good 301 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 2: things to keep in mind when as an Oregonian you're 302 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 2: arguing with friends and family about one ten or if 303 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 2: you're outside of the state and people bring it up 304 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 2: because they saw like a three minute piece on Fox 305 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 2: News where some smarmy asshole talk to a guy on 306 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 2: the street, you know you should be aware of a 307 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 2: couple of things. Number One, when people talk about how 308 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 2: it's not working, the thing that you should bring up 309 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 2: is like, what about the forty years or so of 310 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 2: criminalization prior like that led us to this point and 311 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 2: at which the acceleration in deaths was highest. And the 312 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 2: other thing to bring up is, well, there's these claims 313 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 2: that like public disorder, drug use, all this stuff, overdose 314 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 2: deaths have gotten worse since one ten. There's no evidence 315 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 2: that that's the case, right, And there was in fact 316 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: a study into this by New York University that found 317 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 2: no evidence of an association between decriminalization and fatal overdose 318 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 2: rates in Oregon and Washington. And want to I want 319 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 2: to read a couple of quotes from that study. So, 320 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 2: first off, quote, publicly available calls for service data were 321 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 2: used to compare Portland's use of the nine to one 322 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: one system to Boise, Idaho, Sacramento, California, and Seattle, Washington, 323 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 2: before and after one ten. This was between twenty eighteen 324 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 2: and twenty twenty two. Public initiated calls for service did 325 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 2: not change after BM one ten was enacted in Portland. 326 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 2: Portland's nine one one calls for service data align with 327 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 2: comparison cities for property, disorderly and vice offenses with similar 328 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 2: seasonally fluctuations. So, for one thing, what you'll notice is 329 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 2: that a lot of the articles about one ten started 330 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: to hit both when we would have winter weather come 331 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 2: in and summer weather come in. Both of those lead 332 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 2: the surges in overdoses and drug use. Because the weather's shitty, right, 333 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 2: people have less to do, less options, and especially if 334 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 2: you're living outside it's one hundred during the day or 335 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 2: it's twelve, maybe you want to do drugs more because 336 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 2: you're uncomfortable. 337 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: Right. 338 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, So again I think that it's important. There's this 339 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: study from New York University on one ten and you know, 340 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 2: it's lack of impact on this stuff. That shouldn't be 341 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:19,199 Speaker 2: the final word on this. I'm certain there will be 342 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 2: more studies, but that is a word on this, and 343 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 2: they simply have no data well on their side of things. 344 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: You know, there's another study as well. I mean, you know, 345 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: there's a study out of Portland State University and it's interesting. 346 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: It was a follow up study. The full report has 347 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: not been released yet, but they did release some of 348 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: their key findings and it was in the first year 349 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: PSU met with officers and interviewed them about their perceptions 350 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: of one ten and how it was going. As you 351 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: might imagine, officers didn't think it was going well, and 352 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: they said oh, well, violent crime has increased, and property 353 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: crime is increased, and overdoses are increased in all because 354 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: of one ten. And what this report found is that 355 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: is not true. There was an uptick and property crime, 356 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: but we cannot say that that has been a result 357 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: of one ten for years. You need a lot of 358 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: data in order to look at that. And so, you know, 359 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: this idea, and I mean, the ultimate finding of that 360 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: study was that it is too early to recriminalize. It 361 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: based on the data, it is too early to recriminalize. 362 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: And so but again, you know, I think that instead 363 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: what we are relying on is people's fear and what 364 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: people see in the street. And you know, I think 365 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: it's also this idea. I mean, the reason we are 366 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: having this discussion, in my opinion, is two things. One 367 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 1: is public use, right, individuals using them the street. It's 368 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: in people's faces. Nobody really cares when someone is in 369 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: the warmth of their own home using Fentanyl's when they're 370 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: on the street. 371 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 2: Or I should note when someone's in the White House 372 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 2: using fentanyl, because it just came out that the president 373 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 2: and high staff were prescribed fentanyl and ketamine in the 374 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 2: White House when Trump was in office. 375 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: So yeah, absolutely, but no one really cares about that. 376 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: It's when it's in your face that people can. And 377 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,719 Speaker 1: the other one is the perception that crime is. You 378 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 1: know that again, a lot of crime is caused by 379 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: drug use, right, there is an underlying association there. But 380 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: the idea of criminalizing drugs because of that is the 381 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 1: idea that you can somehow arrest somebody, compel them into 382 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 1: treatment and therefore prevent crimes. Yeah. That I mean, that's 383 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: like the pre cog the sci fi sort of things. 384 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 1: It's it is a backward system. 385 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 2: No, and we actually know what will stop the drug 386 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 2: related crimes, which are mostly theft, right, And one of 387 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 2: the things that will and they've seen this, I believe 388 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 2: it's the Netherlands that if you're a heroin addict, the 389 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 2: government will give you free heroin. You have to take 390 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 2: it at a center like you go in, you sign 391 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 2: a thing and you get your dose and you take 392 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 2: it there. That saves them money based on doing nothing, 393 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 2: because when they do nothing, people break into houses and cars, 394 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 2: et cetera, and boats because it's it's the Netherlands in 395 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 2: order to steal shits so that they can not get 396 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 2: dope sick and just giving the dope to them winds 397 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 2: uprusting a lot less per addict. 398 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: Well, the other thing that gets people clean or that 399 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: stops people from committing crimes is housing, is providing them 400 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: a roof over their head. I mean, when people are 401 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: even if they're not on the street, if they are 402 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: housing and stable, they're trying to make a living and 403 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: it is not easy to do so with whether it's 404 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 1: a felony record or you're you know, your upbringing or 405 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: whatever reason has held you back. If they have housing. 406 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: I mean, there are numerous studies that show that when 407 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 1: you put somebody in housing, their likelihood of using drugs drops, 408 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: their likelihood of committing crimes drops. And yet we are 409 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 1: focused on this recriminalization rather than trying to house these individuals. 410 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's you know, when you talk about this, 411 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 2: when you talk about decriminalization in Oregon's context, there's a 412 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 2: good reason for this. People talk about Portugal, Portugal, Spain 413 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 2: also did this, both Portugal and Spain. And I believe 414 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 2: Portugal was first decriminalized simple possession and use quite a 415 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 2: while ago. It's been that way in Portugal for I 416 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 2: think like twenty years. Like they have a significant amount 417 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,959 Speaker 2: of data on it right, and Oregonians, the people who 418 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: were pushing for one ten, cited it specifically as like 419 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 2: a reason why this was worthwhile. There was recently, I 420 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 2: think last year, some state officials and whatnot went to 421 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 2: Portugal to look into the system, and so as a result, 422 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 2: you've seen like attacks on the Portuguese drug system, including 423 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 2: there was a recent Washington Post article about how Portugal 424 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 2: starting to regret it, They're going to recriminalize maybe, And 425 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 2: the reality of the situation is that there was has 426 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 2: been a recent surge in illicit drug use in Portugal 427 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 2: from seven point eight percent in two thousand and one 428 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 2: to twelve point eight percent in twenty twenty two. That 429 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 2: is an increase. It's still below the average in most 430 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 2: of Western Europe. It's lower than France and Italy. I 431 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 2: believe it's lower than the UK, It's lower than like 432 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 2: most of Western Europe. And I just kind of pointing 433 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 2: out the fact that Portugal is also dealing with an 434 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 2: increase in drug use. Again, saying that that's because of 435 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 2: the couture of decriminalization seems silly when there have been 436 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 2: corresponding surges everywhere where it's illegal. But beyond that, it 437 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 2: ignores the fact that there have been really significant benefits 438 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 2: that we do know our benefits of decriminalization because of 439 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 2: how long we've been looking at it. From two thousand 440 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 2: to two thousand and eight, prison populations in Portugal fell 441 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 2: by almost seventeen percent. Overdose rates dropped because in part 442 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 2: they funded rehabilitation, which Oregon still has not really done. 443 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 2: There was no surge in use, and in fact less 444 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 2: people seem to die when the system changed, right. What 445 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 2: has increased is some drug derelated debris. Particularly, Most of 446 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 2: the surges have been in the last literally the last 447 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,919 Speaker 2: couple of years, which again makes me think it is 448 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 2: tied to the global trends that have made a lot 449 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 2: of people more miserable and living in a more difficult 450 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 2: situation and at more risk of drug addiction. What happens 451 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 2: in Portugal politically hard to say, but overall, decriminalization we 452 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 2: have a lot of data for seems to have largely 453 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 2: been a success. And if that's kind of what we 454 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 2: were to see in Oregon with decriminalization, I would be happy, 455 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 2: even if there's more mess on the streets, although I 456 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 2: don't think that that's inevitable. And this gets us to 457 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 2: what I think is kind of the most dangerous point 458 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 2: that the opposition, the people who want to recriminalize make, 459 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 2: And it's dangerous because it seems like they have a 460 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 2: good point, which is people shouldn't be people with families, 461 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 2: just regular people should not have to see folks using 462 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 2: hard drugs on the street as they walk around town. 463 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 2: And I agree it is not reasonable to expect people 464 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 2: to walk with their kids to school past somebody shooting 465 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 2: up heroin or smoking crack. It's fine, and you're not 466 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 2: like a some sort of like narker party pooper if 467 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 2: you don't want your kids to see that. But that's 468 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 2: already illegal, because it's like it's illegal to drink a 469 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 2: beer on the street in Portland. The problem is not 470 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 2: that the cops can't do anything about it, it's that, again, 471 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,640 Speaker 2: they're choosing not to do anything about it. Yeah, no, absolutely, 472 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,719 Speaker 2: I mean, and again it is the issue of we 473 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 2: have people living on the streets, right, I mean, it 474 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 2: is I completely agree that people shouldn't have to walk 475 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: past that, but maybe that is an opportunity to talk 476 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 2: to their child about the need to make sure that 477 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 2: people have a safe place to live. And also, I mean, 478 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 2: it's Also, you know, if we had safe use locations, 479 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 2: you wouldn't see nearly as much of that. And frankly, 480 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 2: the system would have a better argument for punishing public 481 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 2: use if we had safe use areas, because we have 482 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 2: put so many people on the street. Yes, somebody who 483 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 2: has no place to be and is desperate and it 484 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 2: is addicted, using in a place where you can see 485 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 2: them is understandable. Somebody who has options for places to 486 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 2: be and is choosing to do it in front of people, 487 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 2: that's a bit of a different case. And again I 488 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 2: also want to just really, because I've encountered this in 489 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 2: arguments about one ten with people. It did not make 490 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 2: it legal to do drugs in public. That remains illegal. 491 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 2: It's illegal to drink a beer in public. 492 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Yeah, public use is I mean, but again, these 493 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: are sort of the narratives that are being perpetuated by 494 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: and a lot of it is is law enforcement and 495 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 1: and honestly, my take on it is that law enforcement 496 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: doesn't really care about recriminalizing possession. They don't. What they 497 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: want is they want the ability to search people. What 498 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: what that gives them is it gives them the right 499 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 1: to say, hey, I have problem, cause to believe that 500 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,479 Speaker 1: you have drugs on you. Therefore I'm gonna search you. 501 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna search your car, I'm gonna you know, search 502 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 1: your house. Right, it gives them that ability, and they, 503 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: you know, many of them will be very forthright about that. 504 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: And the biggest infringements on our personal privacy, on our 505 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: Fourth Amendment rights, on our protected privacy interest has always 506 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: been drugs. It has always been the criminalization of drugs 507 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: has eroded our privacy interest. And and that is that's 508 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: what's really at play here because I don't I don't 509 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: think the officers I mean, and this is again not 510 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: a monolith I'm saying, I don't think in general law 511 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: enforcement really is that concerned with, you know, getting individuals 512 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 1: off the street and into treatment. If that were the case, 513 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: we would have seen far more of those E citations, 514 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 1: you know, we would see the officers doing there. There 515 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: is a statute that allows them to transport people to detox, right, 516 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: we don't see that that often because really, what is 517 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: that issue here is the ability to search people based 518 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: on probable cause that they possess drugs. 519 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and we will we will talk about what 520 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 2: people can do if they want to stop the recriminalization 521 00:27:49,200 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 2: of drugs in Oregon. But first, here's some more ads. 522 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 2: We're back, so Grant kind of the question I am 523 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 2: left with at the end of this here is what 524 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 2: do we do to fight back against this? What is 525 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 2: actually what is go? What are the options people have? 526 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 2: Obviously the thing that first occurs to me that is 527 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,439 Speaker 2: most successible is make a fuss to your elected leaders 528 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 2: so you know that this is something you'll think about 529 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 2: come vote in season. But first off, how would people 530 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 2: do that? 531 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 1: I guess Yeah, I mean, you know, figure out who 532 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 1: your legislator is, you know, write to them, call them, 533 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: let them know that you know, you want to see, 534 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: you know, realistic fixes to this. You want to see 535 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: investment in public health, in outreach through pure navigators and 536 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: case managers that you don't want to see us return 537 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: to the same war on drugs that has failed. 538 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's hard, I will say if you're looking 539 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 2: to do research outside of like a lot of a 540 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 2: lot of local news, this is a hard time for 541 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 2: local news. Well, good local reporting gets done in a 542 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 2: number of places, including Oregon. Also, a lot of smaller 543 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 2: local news agencies are very much in the pocket of 544 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 2: the people who helped to fund them, which is some 545 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 2: of the people funding the attempt to repeal. So if 546 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 2: one of the better articles that has been written recently 547 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 2: was in the New Yorker, it's great. Yeah, there's a 548 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 2: I'm pulling it up right now. There's a great New 549 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 2: Yorker piece, a New Drug War in Oregon, that was 550 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 2: published just this month, probably the best major outlet piece 551 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 2: I've seen on it. And yeah, it's It talks a 552 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 2: lot about the STAB and Wagon, which is a kind 553 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 2: of independent although they've now should at some point theoretically 554 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 2: be getting a significant amount of funding. But like they 555 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 2: provide drug users not just with you know, naloxone or narcan, 556 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 2: but with safe use materials like syringes and stuff that 557 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 2: are clean. This is down in the south of Oregon, 558 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 2: in a place called Medford, which has both one of 559 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 2: Oregon's worst drug problems and also is much more conservative areas. 560 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 2: So obviously these people are very controversial, and I will say, 561 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: you know, one of the things this article does well 562 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 2: is they get at, even within people who are supportive 563 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 2: of one ten, the conflict between kind of traditional addiction 564 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 2: recovery resources and organizations and some of these often these 565 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 2: new organizations are either started by or run by people 566 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 2: who have or do currently deal with addiction, and I 567 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 2: think covering that conflict is valuable. There's some stuff that 568 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 2: frustrates me about it, and this is I think there's 569 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 2: a lot of negativity towards stab and Wagon and its 570 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 2: founder that's unfair. I also think some of the things 571 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 2: that she has said about traditional addiction recovery resources are 572 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 2: very unfair from her point of view. And I think 573 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 2: when I look at the problem, the only comprehensive solution 574 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 2: is multiple options for different kinds of people. Because I 575 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 2: know a lot of people who have dealt with addiction 576 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 2: and recovered and no two of them did it the 577 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 2: same way. 578 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, absolutely, And I mean I think that you know, 579 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: both of those are necessary, right harm. What I always 580 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: says that the beauty of harm reduction is that not 581 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: only does it ensure that somebody survives long enough to 582 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: make it to recovery, but it also builds a relationship 583 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: with that person. It builds a relationship of trust so 584 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: that you can have a conversation about the need for recovery. 585 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: You know, as a public defender, I don't get the 586 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: benefit of the prosecutor or the court to or probation 587 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: to wield power and to make my client do what 588 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: they should do. Because I'm holding power over them, I 589 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: have to build trust, right, I have to have a 590 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: relationship of trust with them, and I have to find 591 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: out what motivates that individual and try to utilize that 592 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: to encourage positive steps. Right, And that's true of our 593 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: case managers and social workers that work with us, and 594 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: that's that's what the system doesn't have, right. The system 595 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: is just trying to use the threat of incarceration in 596 00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: order to get individuals who are not ready for recovery 597 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: to engage in recovery. And that that's detrimental. I mean, 598 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: we need we need both harm reduction and we need 599 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: traditional treatment. We need culturally competent treatment. You know, there 600 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: needs to be wrap around services. And that's one of 601 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: my concerns here is that you know, we know that 602 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: the criminal legal system's work. One ten pasted, we had 603 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: a drug court that dealt with low level possession and 604 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: its graduation rate was around seventeen percent, So seventeen percent 605 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: to people, and graduation meant ninety days of sobriety, and 606 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 1: that was seventeen percent of people that other eighty three 607 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: percent if they fail out a program. Again, the only 608 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: tool the system has is jail, and so all they 609 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: did was did not hook them up with services and 610 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: instead eventually punish them for not being ready for treatment. 611 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: And that is not how we get people into recovery. 612 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that's a really good point when 613 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 2: I when I talk about both how people can help 614 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 2: if a loved one is starting to do with drug 615 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 2: addiction and when someone if someone you love is getting 616 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 2: into a cult or getting pulled into conspiracy theories, it's 617 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 2: actually the same advice. I had a friend come to 618 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 2: me recently because I loved one of theirs was starting 619 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 2: to kind of talk about some really concerning conspiracy theory stuff, right, 620 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 2: and they were like, what do I say against this? 621 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 2: How do I argue against it? And my answer was like, well, 622 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 2: you don't really You make it clear, like, hey, I 623 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 2: don't really believe this, I don't find this compelling, but 624 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 2: like you know, I love you and I'm always here 625 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,479 Speaker 2: to listen if you want to talk about this kind 626 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 2: of stuff or you want to talk about whatever. And 627 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 2: that is the same if someone's starting to get pulled 628 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 2: into a cult or if they're dealing with drugs, because, 629 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 2: as you noted, if they have a pathway out and 630 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 2: they're not going to have to it's not this kind 631 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,479 Speaker 2: of thing where you've been yelling at them and may 632 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 2: and then they they have to come to you with 633 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 2: their head tail between their legs and like I was wrong, 634 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 2: I fucked up. That's a barrier. If like, well, this 635 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 2: this person cares about me and is always going to 636 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 2: be like willing to you know, talk with me, like 637 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 2: no matter what, well then that's less of a barrier. 638 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 2: Then you're not You haven't built a wall that they 639 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 2: have to get through. They can just come to you 640 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 2: when they're like I need help exactly. 641 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: I mean it's based in relationships, and I mean that's 642 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 1: that's one of the issues, right, is that too many people, 643 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: not just Importland but everywhere, see individuals on the street 644 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: and assume the worst and see them as the other. 645 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: They don't see them as part of the community, and 646 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: so they're more than fine with a system locking them 647 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: up because of their addiction. And you know, we all 648 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,439 Speaker 1: need to recognize that, you know it that falling into 649 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: that lifestyle, you know, whether whether it is because of 650 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,720 Speaker 1: you know, where you were raised, how you were raised. 651 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: You know, whether you got addicted to pills because your 652 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: doctor prescribed them, there's a lot of reasons, whether you 653 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: had childhood trauma, there's a lot of reasons why people 654 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: get an addiction. And you know, to simply assume that 655 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: because they're addicted to drugs is a criminal, a bad person, 656 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: you know, it is making them the other. And it's 657 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: so much easier to be punitive when you're just seeing 658 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: that person as the other. 659 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I did want to note if people are 660 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 2: looking for resources online both about one ten and how 661 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 2: they can help in the fight to stop it from 662 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 2: getting repealed, you can go to h JR, the Health 663 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 2: Justice Recovery Alliance. They have you can sign up to 664 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,359 Speaker 2: get information from them. They have community resources, they have 665 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 2: like updates on what's going on. I think you can 666 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 2: find through them a way to like automatically kind of 667 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 2: send a form message to your elected leaders. So just 668 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 2: google Health Justice Recovery Alliance Oregon or Health Justice Recovery 669 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 2: Alliance one ten and that will take you there. They've 670 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 2: got a lot of stuff collected there, both resources if 671 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 2: you're having arguments with people about this, and information on 672 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 2: how you can help least try to do something. 673 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I will say also the ACLU has been 674 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 1: very active in this as well. And you know, they 675 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: have an action plan on their website that you know, 676 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,399 Speaker 1: tells you some of the things that you can do 677 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: in this and and you know, like I said, I mean, 678 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 1: I I think obviously contacting your legislators where we haven't 679 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: even started the legislation or the legislative session yet, and 680 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: so there is still room to change this and to 681 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: at least make it less bad, which you know it's 682 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: these days sometimes it feels like less bad is the 683 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: is the goal that we need to strive for. 684 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 2: It's harm reduction again, Like that's how I tend to 685 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 2: look at the legislative side of things. Well, everybody that's 686 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:42,919 Speaker 2: going to do it for us here at it could 687 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 2: happen here, Grant, thank you so much. Should you have 688 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 2: anything you wanted to plug or direct listeners towards before 689 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 2: we roll out here? 690 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I think again, it's just you know, go 691 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: to the ACLU website, go to hha's website, get involved. 692 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: But more than just that, no matter what happens during 693 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: this legislative session, you know, remember that all of these 694 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 1: folks on the street are people and they need assistance, 695 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: and you know, and they need help and continue or 696 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:20,840 Speaker 1: consider you know, contributing to a recovery organization, or volunteering 697 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: to go out into the community. You know, if you 698 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: have lived experience with addiction, consider becoming a peer. It 699 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 1: is so impactful to have individuals who have struggled with 700 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 1: substance use go out in the community and engage individuals 701 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: who are currently struggling with it. And that is the 702 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: best trust building that it's the best way to get 703 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: people into recovery, not through handcuffs in jails. 704 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,280 Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Grant. I couldn't agree more. All Right, everybody, 705 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 2: that's it for us today. We'll be back tomorrow with 706 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 2: more of it happening here. It could Happen here as 707 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 2: a production of cool Zone Media. More podcasts from cool 708 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 2: Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia dot com, or check 709 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 2: us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 710 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,800 Speaker 2: you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It 711 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 2: could Happen here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com, slash sources. 712 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.