Speaker 1: Thinking sideways. I don't just stories of things we simply
Speaker 1: don't know the answer too. Hi there, welcome to a
Speaker 1: special Encore presentation of Sticking Sideways. Encore presentation because two
Speaker 1: days ago were recorded about of it and then realized
Speaker 1: that we hadn't turned our mixer on. It was really
Speaker 1: it was like our best episode. You guys. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know about that. It wasn't really that much of
Speaker 1: a loss. Yeah, well we're here. We're gonna repeat word
Speaker 1: for word what we said the other day if we can. Actually,
Speaker 1: and before I forget, I'm Joe, joined as always by
Speaker 1: and Steve. Okay, so let's solve another mystery before I start.
Speaker 1: I also want to give a shout out to Kenji,
Speaker 1: who suggested the topic for this episode. Thanks can appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Keep them suggestions coming. What are we talking about tonight?
Speaker 1: To refresh my memory? It's been a couple of days
Speaker 1: talking about talking about be Travina. Who was this guy?
Speaker 1: He was a German author, if you haven't heard him before,
Speaker 1: who published thirteen books, a lot of short stories. His
Speaker 1: books were extremely popular and sold millions of copies. His
Speaker 1: first book was called The Cotton Pickers. It was published
Speaker 1: in serial format in Yeah, the Cotton Pickers newspaper. Yeah, newspaper,
Speaker 1: got it. The second novel is called The death Ship,
Speaker 1: which I really liked that title of came out in
Speaker 1: ninety six, and all of these books were originally published
Speaker 1: in German. By the way, I don't think I mentioned that,
Speaker 1: So these were published in Germany. Death Ship became a
Speaker 1: movie in nineteen fifty nine. Movie was it called the
Speaker 1: death Ship? Yeah? Okay. His third, well, The Treasure of
Speaker 1: the Sierra Madre, was published the year after that. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure if that was made into a movie or not. Wait,
Speaker 1: let me, I'll look on the Google. Okay, I do that.
Speaker 1: Definitely not faked at all. U huh, totally doing this, yeah,
Speaker 1: in which was starring Humphrey Bogart. Who Yeah, no, Humphrey Bogart.
Speaker 1: You know him? Oh, the actor? Yeah, Frankly, my dear,
Speaker 1: I don't give it. Yeah, the multi Falcon. Yeah he
Speaker 1: played it for her. You can play it for me, sham,
Speaker 1: Yeah that guy, Yeah, good old Bogie. Back to be Travin.
Speaker 1: His books were very popular in the US, in Mexico
Speaker 1: after they were translated into Spanish, and also in Europe.
Speaker 1: Quite a few were adapted, as I said, from movies
Speaker 1: and TV shows. But what's strange about Travan is that,
Speaker 1: despite a very long later career and a huge, huge
Speaker 1: fan base, nobody actually knows who he really was, or
Speaker 1: where he was born or when he was born. Nobody
Speaker 1: really knows, and he was always it was always kind
Speaker 1: of coy about the whole thing. I said. Before he
Speaker 1: was German. He published his books in German, but some
Speaker 1: people think he may actually have been born in Chicago.
Speaker 1: Travin himself always claimed to be an American, and even
Speaker 1: while he was still alive he died in nineteen sixty nine,
Speaker 1: people were trying really hard to figure out who he
Speaker 1: actually was and not just read it. Here I'm talking
Speaker 1: about journalists and people like that read it's really good
Speaker 1: at figuring out who actually better at time, Well, actually
Speaker 1: they are journalists do some amazingly hacky things sometimes, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and read it. It's just kind of like, O, no, no no, no,
Speaker 1: this is obviously this person. Yeah. But yeah, but there's
Speaker 1: also the fact that read it wasn't around then, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there was it in nineteen fifties. Around it was an
Speaker 1: analog form was a card catalog. They had clanked and
Speaker 1: clacked a lot like Computer Star Trek. I feel like
Speaker 1: the Internet. I'll have to look it up. You know,
Speaker 1: the Internet originally was in some form, but Red did
Speaker 1: itself was not. Okay, Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I
Speaker 1: can argue. I'm not sure when the Darknet started. I'll
Speaker 1: do a google. After the show started with Dara, Well,
Speaker 1: you know probably what happened. If if Devin's right, is
Speaker 1: that the original code name of the Darpinnet when it
Speaker 1: was being created was Reddit read it, I find it? Okay, Okay.
Speaker 1: Back to Betraven. At the start of his larious success,
Speaker 1: he was living in Mexico and he stayed there pretty
Speaker 1: much until he died, and he traveled, abrought a little bit,
Speaker 1: but basically lived in Mexico. His publishers in Europe and
Speaker 1: America never met him. He dealt with them only through representatives.
Speaker 1: Warner Brothers brought the rights to the Treasure of the
Speaker 1: Sierra Madre in ninety one and they signed up John
Speaker 1: Houston to direct. I'm sure you've heard of him. What
Speaker 1: else did Houston direct? Do you know? Off the top
Speaker 1: of your head. I know Houston did a bunch of stuff.
Speaker 1: Just kidd I you know, I'm having a bit of
Speaker 1: vaporlock right now. Okay, if you want to know what
Speaker 1: he looks like, watch Chinatown. Did you ever see Chinatown
Speaker 1: with Jack Nicholson. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he plays he
Speaker 1: plays the elderly bad guy in Chinatown. Oh okay, here
Speaker 1: you're talking about Okay, okay, keeps calling him Mr gets Yeah, nothing,
Speaker 1: you tell it's been a long time. I don't quite
Speaker 1: get that joke. Yeah, Okay. Nicholson's name was Giddies and
Speaker 1: but this guy he kept mispronouncing his name, Mr. Getts.
Speaker 1: So if if anybody, lots of our listeners are cackling
Speaker 1: hysterically right now. Hilarious. Actually, if you haven't seen Chinatown,
Speaker 1: you should see it. It's a classic, really good movie. Okay,
Speaker 1: back to I'm getting all of course here. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: said he used to set up a meeting with Travan
Speaker 1: in nine in Mexico City, but Travin didn't make it
Speaker 1: to the meeting. A quotes included, right, yeah. Instead, a
Speaker 1: guy named hal Crow showed up with a letter which
Speaker 1: was a power of attorney from B. Travn. In the letter,
Speaker 1: Travan authorized hal Crows decide all matters regarding the filming
Speaker 1: of the novel. So Crows and not be Traven was
Speaker 1: present for the filming of the movie on location in Mexico.
Speaker 1: That might suggest you would think, well, yeah, a lot
Speaker 1: of people that were involved with the film, we're asking
Speaker 1: Crows if he was actually be Travin. Crows always said
Speaker 1: that he was not. He probably was Travin. I will
Speaker 1: never know absolutely for sure. I'm kind of guessing he was.
Speaker 1: That most of the crew believed that Crows and Trading
Speaker 1: were the same person, although John Houston came to believe
Speaker 1: that they weren't the same person for god knows what reason.
Speaker 1: But I'm only recoinding this one story because it's so
Speaker 1: typical Travin. He was sold. He was always real cagy
Speaker 1: about his identity and protecting his privacy. He his motivation
Speaker 1: might have been quote the creative person should have no
Speaker 1: other biography than his works unquote. And that's from Travin. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's unusual for somebody to want to
Speaker 1: put their work into the public eye, whether it be
Speaker 1: writing or music or whatever it is. For most people,
Speaker 1: there's a there's a bit of hubrist there. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: to not want to be known. He's well I think
Speaker 1: the irony of that is that, you know, if he
Speaker 1: if he had truly just written his books and kind
Speaker 1: of gone about his life, we would remember his works
Speaker 1: likely but nobody would care who this betraven dude was
Speaker 1: other than an author. And you know he lived in Mexico. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but the fact that he was so cagy with his
Speaker 1: true identity and so standoffish it is really the reason
Speaker 1: that he's remembered for anything other than his work. Like
Speaker 1: you said, ironic, that true irony, real kind of irony,
Speaker 1: not like yeah or or it could be he's even
Speaker 1: he's even smarter than we realized. And he did this
Speaker 1: on purpose so that people would be be, you know,
Speaker 1: obsessing over who he really was for many, many decades
Speaker 1: after he actually did want to be remembered. That maybe
Speaker 1: that's it sneaky. Yeah, Probably the reason he hit from
Speaker 1: the public eye is that he was private and he
Speaker 1: just wanted people to read his books and not not
Speaker 1: think about him. It appears that be Travan arrived in
Speaker 1: Mexico or around nineteen twenty four, though it's a little
Speaker 1: bit of dispute about this. I think as early as
Speaker 1: ninety two. One person says in nineteen fourteen. I've read
Speaker 1: something about much earlier, So okay, Thanking fourteen is the
Speaker 1: earliest accounting we have of trading arriving in Mexico, whether
Speaker 1: it's accurate or not. That's the earliest. Does not appear
Speaker 1: to be accurate, but we'll we'll figure out why it
Speaker 1: a little bit here. His widow said that he signed
Speaker 1: on he got to Mexico by signing I was a
Speaker 1: crew member on a ship from England to Norway. She
Speaker 1: said it was a death ship. That's what I guess
Speaker 1: where he got. And then from Norway you got caught
Speaker 1: another ship to Africa, and on the third he went
Speaker 1: to Mexico from Africa. Yeah, from Africa. I just believe
Speaker 1: he got the inspiration for death ship from his experience
Speaker 1: on his long voyage. It makes sense. Yeah, well, the
Speaker 1: death ship and I think the cotton pickers are both
Speaker 1: deal a lot with what the proletariat experiences in these
Speaker 1: terrible working conditions, So it would make sense that that's
Speaker 1: where he pulled a bunch of the content from. That
Speaker 1: was a big word for you, I know, proletariat. I
Speaker 1: googled it. Yeah, sorry, you're not dumb. I'm sorry. I
Speaker 1: think It's one of the ironic things about the industrial revolutions.
Speaker 1: You hear so many horror stories, but people still flock
Speaker 1: from the farms in the fields to go work in
Speaker 1: the factories. Well better, because working on the farm sucks
Speaker 1: or it sucks. And I think about farms. That's different
Speaker 1: from factories is on farms you get these things called
Speaker 1: failed harvests, and then after that, you guys, what's called
Speaker 1: a famine. At least you got in the factory. Yeah,
Speaker 1: even if it pays terrible, pays better than corn. The
Speaker 1: farm thing, although it sounds like the living conditions were worse.
Speaker 1: But hey, we're way off track. Who cares, We don't
Speaker 1: have to do that. Back to this story here is
Speaker 1: from Mexico. Travan submitted his novels for publication in Europe
Speaker 1: in German in nineteen three, manuscripts of his earlier novels
Speaker 1: in English to Alfred A. Knopp in New York for publication,
Speaker 1: and he said that he claimed that these were the
Speaker 1: original works and the ones previously published were just translations. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when did the German versions get submitted to publishers? And anyway,
Speaker 1: still nineteen thirty three to submit him so we're talking
Speaker 1: half a decade to a decade later, about eight years.
Speaker 1: It's just that there's so many weird dates, and there's
Speaker 1: so many conflicting things. I just want to try and
Speaker 1: keep this linear, is possible, Yeah, with this story, it's
Speaker 1: kind of hard to keep all the details straight in
Speaker 1: your head. Just confusing that. The thing that's odd about
Speaker 1: these translated the English version is people who happen to
Speaker 1: read both German and English have said that there are
Speaker 1: a lot of differences between the German and the English versions.
Speaker 1: It's and the people claim that the German ones contain americanisms,
Speaker 1: whatever those are. Yeah, I still don't understand what that is. Colloquialism,
Speaker 1: perhaps colloquialisms, although that varies by region. That could be Canadian,
Speaker 1: could be Mexican, yeah, but that it can't be Mexican
Speaker 1: colloquialisms because who come from Spanish. Yeah. My German vocabulary
Speaker 1: consists of about five words, so I'm not reading them
Speaker 1: in German to find nor am I. Yeah, but the
Speaker 1: americanisms in his books is why so many people believe
Speaker 1: that he was born in America. But then here's the
Speaker 1: funny part. The English version supposedly contain Germanisms, and I
Speaker 1: haven't read, so I can't comment. The only thing I
Speaker 1: can think of is is like the Fatherland, statements like that,
Speaker 1: things that are just so common to say that you
Speaker 1: hear in direct translations. Those are the only things that
Speaker 1: I can think of that would be in there that
Speaker 1: could be called a Germanism. If he was born in
Speaker 1: America but grew up in like a German slum or something,
Speaker 1: he would be surrounded by people speaking both German and English.
Speaker 1: It's possible that he was fluent in both. It's possible
Speaker 1: that when he wrote, he had both Americanisms and Germanisms,
Speaker 1: and therefore that accounts. You know, I assume that they're separate.
Speaker 1: It's not like the Americanism is replaced with the Germanism
Speaker 1: in the English translation. So it's possible that he just
Speaker 1: picked up both of them. That's possible that both versions
Speaker 1: had both Americanisms, and and that you just notice it
Speaker 1: in the other language because hey, it's different. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess yeah. And and there are apparently either differences
Speaker 1: between the two books too. But he if he did
Speaker 1: submit them years after the first one, is maybe he
Speaker 1: just revised them a little bit, because you know, I
Speaker 1: wanted to make them better and to appeal to the reader. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it could be that. Yeah, it appears that Mr Travan
Speaker 1: was one of three people Barrick Travan towards then Rhett
Speaker 1: Marut or how Crows, or possibly all three. All right,
Speaker 1: well we'll skip let's skip right straight into the theories.
Speaker 1: We're gonna go. We're gonna start with the less likely
Speaker 1: ones first. Okay, yeah, it sounds good. Yeah, Okay, we're
Speaker 1: doing like the list thing that we do sometimes we're
Speaker 1: just like list a bunch of stupid theories and then
Speaker 1: talk about some good ones. Okay, so it looks like
Speaker 1: it's perfect. Yeah, we can discuss. We can discuss these
Speaker 1: these as much as you guys want to. First, Traman
Speaker 1: was an amalgamation of two or more people who collaborated
Speaker 1: on the books and the stories. Yeah, it doesn't know
Speaker 1: how many. There's not a lot of great works out
Speaker 1: there that were written by collaboration. There aren't. That's a
Speaker 1: hard thing to do. Yeah, well you only see it
Speaker 1: in fantasy sci fi novels, ye, mysteries. Yeah, you do
Speaker 1: see a lot of fantasy and sci fi oddly enough. Okay,
Speaker 1: so much for that theory. Another theory is that it
Speaker 1: was hiding from a dark past, and he apparently was
Speaker 1: huh yeah, we'll talk about that in one of the
Speaker 1: more serious theory theories if he was. Indeed, some people
Speaker 1: believe he was re b Root, which I'm guessing we're
Speaker 1: going to get to. Yeah, yeah, okay, next one. Travan
Speaker 1: was just a shy guy. Oh shy guy, like, oh,
Speaker 1: shy guy, a little blue boom shy guy. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't get there. That's what they call just playing Nintendo
Speaker 1: game sometime. Just I grew up on Nintendo games. Which
Speaker 1: blue shy guy? Are we talking? It's not blue? A
Speaker 1: little shy guy nature of low load notes from Super
Speaker 1: Mario guys. Oh yes, I don't who you're talking about?
Speaker 1: Failed Joe. Alright, keep moving. Let's do another theory here,
Speaker 1: and that. Another theory is that Travan was the pen
Speaker 1: name of Adolpho Lopez Mateos, who was President of Mexico
Speaker 1: from nineteen fifty eight to sixty four. And it's probably
Speaker 1: I started because his sister, Esperanza Lopez Mateos, translated eight
Speaker 1: of Traven's books into Spanish, and he was also be
Speaker 1: Travan's literary representative for a while about ten years I
Speaker 1: think she was think she was okay, So you can
Speaker 1: see how that that rumor might have gotten started. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't know what to make of this. I don't
Speaker 1: think Mateo spoke German. Maybe he did, but maybe his
Speaker 1: sister did. You got another area is that Travan was
Speaker 1: the pen name of Esperanza Lopez Mateos herself. Yeah, yea,
Speaker 1: so maybe she spoke German. Well, but do we know
Speaker 1: what language she translated the it into Spanish from did
Speaker 1: she translated from English? Which would make sense that she
Speaker 1: was fluent in English and Spanish. I know she spoke
Speaker 1: eight languages, but I'm just thinking on the order of
Speaker 1: likelihood what languages she would speak. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know that German would be that highland in
Speaker 1: that it might be maybe I don't know, And that's
Speaker 1: why I'm asking. I mean in terms of like large
Speaker 1: world players, right, Germany is a pretty big world power.
Speaker 1: And if you're trying to study up on languages based
Speaker 1: on who you were most likely to have to communicate with,
Speaker 1: particularly if you were the president's sister, I would say
Speaker 1: Germans a solid choice, English, Spanish, German, probably some pan
Speaker 1: Asian Japanese, Chinese, probably Italian. Yeah, I don't know. That's
Speaker 1: why I'm asked. I would say it's I would say
Speaker 1: that it's a pretty good chance that she spoke German.
Speaker 1: I don't know fluently enough to translate full novels. But
Speaker 1: that's really I mean, yeah, you got another language, really
Speaker 1: really well. Do we know when she was his his agent,
Speaker 1: his representative. I believe it was from like nineteen one. Okay,
Speaker 1: I could see German being on the list at that time. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm just just asking anyway. Our next theory, this is
Speaker 1: a good one. Traman was actually Ambrose Bears. Actually, you
Speaker 1: guys have heard of this same rings a bell? Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I can't think of who ring a bell from
Speaker 1: Tuesday or Yeah. I know it's a literary figure. It's
Speaker 1: famous author and satirist. Yeah. Yeah. Beers went to Mexico
Speaker 1: during the Mexican Revolution in nineteen thirteen because he wanted
Speaker 1: to check it out, perhaps report on it. And I'm
Speaker 1: not sure, and he vanished without a trace. Another one
Speaker 1: solid mystery. Huh oh, yeah, that one not me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he banished. Problem with this theory is that he was
Speaker 1: born in eighteen Yeah, so that kind of he'd be
Speaker 1: an old old man seven years old, so I think
Speaker 1: we can discount this one. Yeah, Now there was that
Speaker 1: he Tradman was the illegitimate son of Emperor of Villenham.
Speaker 1: The second. Okay, what's the foundation on this? I mean why,
Speaker 1: I can't think of anything other than that, Like during
Speaker 1: like World War One and so like that he was
Speaker 1: he was able to publish his little his little agitation
Speaker 1: magazine whatever it was, called The Brickmaker, and one paper
Speaker 1: was in short supply and being rationed. So they thought, well,
Speaker 1: maybe he's got royal connections. But that ties in with
Speaker 1: a different theory about who betrayven is right. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: not sure that he was the one who was publishing
Speaker 1: The Brickmaker, right, No, it's not. No, not really, that's true.
Speaker 1: A lot of people believe that he was, sure, but
Speaker 1: it's not. I mean, that's also just a theory. That's
Speaker 1: just yeah, stronger, stronger, possibility, stronger. The next theory traveling
Speaker 1: was Jack London. Jack London died in at the age
Speaker 1: of forty, but some people think he faked his death,
Speaker 1: moved to Mexico and continued his writing career, and then
Speaker 1: died fifty years later. Again there's the old old man issue.
Speaker 1: That's that's a little more credible than a hundred seven.
Speaker 1: But they're okay, what what officially did London die from? You?
Speaker 1: Either of your overdose? Well, some people say that I
Speaker 1: heard that he had an internal infection. I think the
Speaker 1: official cause of death on his death certificate was drug
Speaker 1: over He was taking morphine for the pain because he
Speaker 1: had some serious salem. So I could see where it
Speaker 1: be seriously easy to Actually a lot of people do it,
Speaker 1: but particularly at that time. Yeah, self medication was the
Speaker 1: way to medicate. Well yeah, and that's terrifying. Morphine and
Speaker 1: stuff like that easy to do. If I'm never in
Speaker 1: the hospital and they say would you like morphine? My
Speaker 1: answer will be no. I will scream thank you. But
Speaker 1: my question is, isn't there I swear there's something about
Speaker 1: images or accountings of people who were who saw London's
Speaker 1: body after because he there was an autopsy done. Wasn't
Speaker 1: there on London? I think so? And I we're I've
Speaker 1: seen something about people having seen the body post the autopsy,
Speaker 1: So that would that would lend me to say to
Speaker 1: poopoo on this one? Yeah, not an okay theory because
Speaker 1: of that I think it's a bad theory. The theory.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's no particular reason he needed to do this,
Speaker 1: and he was already successful writer, yeah and he was,
Speaker 1: and he was he wasn't against sick and very poor
Speaker 1: health and taking morphine, So that at least me to
Speaker 1: believe that he probably just accidentally o'deed or had a
Speaker 1: natural causes and yeah, he had no real motive death.
Speaker 1: Uh see. Another another's last of the loopie theories. B
Speaker 1: Traven was a pen name of a guy named August
Speaker 1: Beblje and I might be mispronouncing them, who was a
Speaker 1: German from Hamburg who wasn't an adventurer and actually did
Speaker 1: spend time in Mexico. But of course I don't know
Speaker 1: why he came up with this theory and proposal because
Speaker 1: Belge died in the Spanish Civil War in the late thirties,
Speaker 1: so probably not him. Probably not yeah, yeah, unless he
Speaker 1: faked his own death. Yeah, that could have been it.
Speaker 1: But again, a couple of these are faked death scenarios,
Speaker 1: and I don't I don't understand why. Okay, I can
Speaker 1: see somebody having a big political shift or an ideology
Speaker 1: shift and changing the things that they write but I
Speaker 1: can't see somebody doing that and saying this is gonna
Speaker 1: cause a firestorm. So instead I'll just die and come
Speaker 1: back as somebody else so I don't damage that other reputation.
Speaker 1: That's that's an odd train of thought. I think in general,
Speaker 1: fixed death theories are kind of bunk in my book. Okay,
Speaker 1: I think it does happen. I've done it a few times. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but don't need to get away from girlfriends pretty much
Speaker 1: to escape my debtor. Yeah, government, Yeah, let's dive into
Speaker 1: some meteor theories like good ones. Yeah. Better, you know,
Speaker 1: I'll see how you like him. I thought we were talking,
Speaker 1: like knew were there. I'm sorry, that's what I thought.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. All right, what do we got? The first
Speaker 1: one of the documents to the reet ma Rout thing,
Speaker 1: as I mentioned before, and as like foreshadowed, honestly, yeah,
Speaker 1: well this is actually it was actually the connection between
Speaker 1: ret mar uts is some claim was made by an
Speaker 1: East German author named Rolf rec Nagel, but actually it
Speaker 1: was actually made by one of his fellow revolutionaries, a
Speaker 1: guy named Eric Mousseum. You probably wondering about revolutionaries. He
Speaker 1: got you kind of ret Rout Actually appeared on the
Speaker 1: scene in the early nineteen hundreds in Germany. He was
Speaker 1: an actor, occasionally wrote plays, also directed plays, danced and
Speaker 1: all that stuff, and then eventually started Yeah, I guess,
Speaker 1: I guess whatever theater was like in Germany in those days,
Speaker 1: that was in the live so I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Eventually he got involved in politics and joined up with
Speaker 1: a bunch of a bunch of revolutionaries in Bavaria, and
Speaker 1: one of them was Eric Moosem, who and read My
Speaker 1: Roots had a distinctive writing style that and Eric was
Speaker 1: some recognize that, and it it first made the connection. So
Speaker 1: a nice German author named Ralph rock Nagel, who I
Speaker 1: just mentioned, wrote a book about in nineteen sixties six,
Speaker 1: we did some while while Travan was still alive, right,
Speaker 1: unless he faked his death in sixty to get away
Speaker 1: from this, So I'm not sure that this is Obviously
Speaker 1: the sixties sixty six is still I'm fairly late in
Speaker 1: the game. I mean, people back in the forties where
Speaker 1: we're trying to guess what his real identity was. But
Speaker 1: this this just made it like sort of flare up
Speaker 1: anew And actually, I guess I guess, actually you could
Speaker 1: say that it was back in the twenties when people
Speaker 1: actually because it was actually the publication of the Death
Speaker 1: Ship in Germany that started this, because that's when Eric
Speaker 1: Lewis Um recognized his writing style. Let's get back into
Speaker 1: what he was up to in Bavaria. I said, he
Speaker 1: performed on stage and at the After the outbreak of
Speaker 1: World War One, he became politically active and he founded
Speaker 1: an anarchist magazine slash newspaper called There's Sigl Brenner, which
Speaker 1: it literally means the brickmaker. Yeah, what we're talking about earlier, Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And then on Wikipedia says brick burner. A lot of
Speaker 1: people have it that as brick burner, but it actually
Speaker 1: means brickmaker in German. Why is that? Because the word
Speaker 1: brenner in German means burner, but if you pair it
Speaker 1: up with the word brick, it's it becomes brickmaker. Germans weird,
Speaker 1: We thank you. Yeah, well but yeah, okay, so I
Speaker 1: didn't grew up speaking German, thought, so, yeah, I founded
Speaker 1: this anarchist magazine. And after the proclamation of the Bavarians
Speaker 1: Sylvia a Republican Munich, they actually started and had this
Speaker 1: little revolution in Munich in Bavaria, and that happened in
Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen my Root Root was made director of the
Speaker 1: press division and he became a member also the propaganda
Speaker 1: committee of the quote unquote government, which some called the
Speaker 1: fake Soviet Republic. And it was during this time that
Speaker 1: we got to know Eric Moussum and he was one
Speaker 1: of the Eric Moussam was one of the leaders of
Speaker 1: the anarchists in Munich. And when the death Ship started
Speaker 1: to appear in other ones, that's when Mussum compared his
Speaker 1: writing style with the Brickmaker articles and decided they must
Speaker 1: have been written by the same person. So I'm back
Speaker 1: to Rolph Rachnagel, the guy in nineteen six in the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties who wrote this book about it. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: tracked out a whole bunch of those revolutionaries as many
Speaker 1: as he could to get their opinions on that and
Speaker 1: and find out what they knew, and then wrote a
Speaker 1: book about it. And they all said, hey, this is
Speaker 1: the same writing style. Okay, So it doesn't necessarily prove
Speaker 1: much so well, no, because it's forty years later, fifty
Speaker 1: years later. Oh no, no, it's not that far. Well though,
Speaker 1: if if this, if this revolution takes place in nineteen nineteen,
Speaker 1: that's when is really active, and they may not have
Speaker 1: read any of his stuff since then. But I thought
Speaker 1: that that Eric was soon read the read the test
Speaker 1: Ship at least like not too long after it was published,
Speaker 1: which would have been n So we're talking eight years, yeah,
Speaker 1: in seven years. Yeah, It's just it's it's when there's
Speaker 1: any kind of time. If I've got two documents in
Speaker 1: front of me, totally can see the similarities in style,
Speaker 1: but if I'm trying to recollect, because that's that's my
Speaker 1: my issue with uh, these guys that were in this
Speaker 1: movement is did they have documents that were supposedly written
Speaker 1: by Marut to then compare against or was it just
Speaker 1: and this really sounds like that other guy. That's that's
Speaker 1: my question. I don't know if there's any if there's
Speaker 1: any correlation, or if it's just memory. There might have
Speaker 1: been well, I don't know, there might have been copies
Speaker 1: of the brickmakers still laying around that hadn't been recycled yet.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that seems like, you know, if that
Speaker 1: was something that you were proud of in your history,
Speaker 1: you would scrap book that. I mean, you know whatever,
Speaker 1: the dude early nineteen hundred equivalent of scrap booking is.
Speaker 1: But you would keep that sort of stuff. If that
Speaker 1: was a publication and a movement that you were really
Speaker 1: a part of, you keep that and you can pull
Speaker 1: it out and say, oh, hey, remember when we did this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just I just want to know if it was.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that we'd have to read the book
Speaker 1: by it's wreck nagel, okay, And maybe he lays out
Speaker 1: that he you know, they had these two things to compare.
Speaker 1: I'm just I don't know that also, I guess in fairness.
Speaker 1: The other thing that I would point out is that
Speaker 1: just because the book was published eight years after doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that he was writing it eight years after, Right,
Speaker 1: he could have been writing it the whole time, because
Speaker 1: it takes a while to get stuff blish, it takes
Speaker 1: a while to write now, so it could have been
Speaker 1: within a couple of years that he had been writing that.
Speaker 1: So the style could have been quite similar, particularly if
Speaker 1: he had a really I don't know, bold way of writing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to dispute that at all. So their
Speaker 1: little revolution didn't last long. Essentially, they the White Guards
Speaker 1: came in and rated them in May nineteen nineteen, and
Speaker 1: that was the end of the very Soviet Republic. They
Speaker 1: lasted a couple of months. Yeah. Yeah, Ret was arrested
Speaker 1: along a bunch of the others and supposedly they were
Speaker 1: going to execute them for treason. But I don't know
Speaker 1: if they actually we're planning on doing that or not.
Speaker 1: But he's something I managed to escape, and so maybe
Speaker 1: they were going to execute. And when it's then his
Speaker 1: captors decided, yeah, we're just gonna let you go. Excided
Speaker 1: really don't want to see a gate head cut off,
Speaker 1: and so you managed to sneak off, and he spent
Speaker 1: the next several years laying well in Germany and Austria,
Speaker 1: and then eventually, of course, as we know, he made
Speaker 1: his way to Mexico. Okay, okay, And I was talking
Speaker 1: about another guy fight fight I fight. It's it's like
Speaker 1: that yogurt, right, fight age. It's that Greek yogurtge fight age.
Speaker 1: It says on the front of the yogurt. Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: clearly the only lady and want to the Greek yogurt
Speaker 1: in this room. Yeah, I think so. Oh my goodness, sorry,
Speaker 1: all the blank look like you've never heard of Greek
Speaker 1: yogurt before. I've never heard of yogurt before. What is
Speaker 1: this stuff you call yogurt? Sorry, I'm sorry, let's just
Speaker 1: talk about check. So this came out because in late
Speaker 1: nineteen tried to travel to Canada through England. But this
Speaker 1: is after having escaped. Yeah, this ise He escaped in
Speaker 1: in nineteen nine and hung around Europe laying low because
Speaker 1: he was wanted by the authorities for treason. Tried to
Speaker 1: travel to Canada, got busted in England for being a
Speaker 1: foreigner without a residence permit. You got to spend two
Speaker 1: and a half months in jail. Man at that time.
Speaker 1: During interrogations ASTs with the cops, he's told told them
Speaker 1: that his real name was Herman Otto Albert Maximilian fig name.
Speaker 1: I would not have wanted to have to write that
Speaker 1: on my homework as a kid. Imagine writing checks. It's
Speaker 1: time to pay my boils. Christ I hate the sime
Speaker 1: of the mom. He also said that he's from the
Speaker 1: city of Schreibus in Germany, which is in Poland today.
Speaker 1: And a couple of BBC journalists and Will Wyatt and
Speaker 1: Robert Robinson that was her British names. Yeah, British. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they found they found out about his jail interrogation and
Speaker 1: this claim of this name in the city. So they
Speaker 1: want to Poland where Scribus is is not now a
Speaker 1: new name too, And they checked the local records and
Speaker 1: they confirmed that his claims were apparently true. What year
Speaker 1: was this that, Oh you know, that was in the sixties.
Speaker 1: I believe I could be wrong. Yeah, And they had
Speaker 1: photos of Reton Root and b Travan apparently Retroot he
Speaker 1: was photographed when he was when he was busted. And
Speaker 1: I've seen that picture, and I've seen the pictures of Betraven,
Speaker 1: the supposed pictures of Betrayal looks very similar. Could be
Speaker 1: the same guy. So he had a couple of siblings
Speaker 1: still alive out of fives did and they interviewed the
Speaker 1: sisters and showed him pictures of the Reton Root and
Speaker 1: be Travin and they appeared to recognize him. Appeared. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know if they actually said like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's my mom. That's how long lost brother, because he
Speaker 1: disappeared years and years before. Yeah, okay, so how many
Speaker 1: years like it happened kids sixties, We're talking forty years. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: he so he disappeared around nineteen o four, nineteen five. Yeah,
Speaker 1: while we're years Yeah, yeah, memory gets a little you know,
Speaker 1: remory fades a little bit, and so they never actually
Speaker 1: said it was just kind of like yeah, and I
Speaker 1: think that. Yeah. So if let's see, like the picture
Speaker 1: of Reton Root, which I believe it was the police
Speaker 1: photograph would have been taken, Um, if he disappeared, let's
Speaker 1: stay eight, he would have aged eighteen years, maybe it
Speaker 1: still would have been recognizable. I mean, I guess there's
Speaker 1: something to be said for uh, you know, that dude
Speaker 1: looks like Uncle Jerry. You know, he looks he looks
Speaker 1: like he belongs in our family. He looks like the
Speaker 1: family lineage. So yeah, it might be him. And we
Speaker 1: had a brother who disappeared who looks kind of like
Speaker 1: he might end up looking like that. So the other
Speaker 1: thing we need to keep in mind is photography at
Speaker 1: the time is not what we're all used to as
Speaker 1: photography today. The picture is not bad, but you know,
Speaker 1: film photography, it degrades. And if it's if the film
Speaker 1: is a little dirty and it's not processed right, those
Speaker 1: things can get a little fuzzy and a little off.
Speaker 1: So it's um, oh, what is it? They it's kind
Speaker 1: of that vignette field that you'll see where they kind
Speaker 1: of soften every thing. That's what it's. It harkens back
Speaker 1: to is the day when it wasn't easy to get
Speaker 1: a perfectly good in focus shot and it was at
Speaker 1: hard back in the day. Well, the thing I found
Speaker 1: a little odd about this is that if they recognized
Speaker 1: him as their brother, long lost brother, you think they say,
Speaker 1: oh my god, can you tell me where he is
Speaker 1: so we can find him? They didn't do that. Well,
Speaker 1: that's why I suspect that it was just kind of
Speaker 1: a look of recognition on their faces. You know, journalists
Speaker 1: took to mean that they recognized him, and since they
Speaker 1: were Yeah, as we were talking about earlier journalists, maybe
Speaker 1: not the best. Yeah, they cut some corners sometimes, let's
Speaker 1: face it. Anyway, back to Otto, he disappeared in nineteen
Speaker 1: o four oh five, and so it looks like d
Speaker 1: of this series that out of five adopted Rett Maroot
Speaker 1: as a stage name and or and also a nomdue
Speaker 1: gear when he later became a revolutionary. That's your favorite phrase. Yeah,
Speaker 1: some people have disputed this because they're saying you couldn't
Speaker 1: have been more to German because there's too many Americanisms
Speaker 1: in his writing. Again, I don't want an americanism is
Speaker 1: so I don't know if the Oddifa thing. It seems
Speaker 1: like everywhere that Traven went or ret mad or whoever
Speaker 1: you like, to spin a big cloud of bs and
Speaker 1: leave leave a big leave a lot of false trails,
Speaker 1: which if he didn't want to be found, really two
Speaker 1: ways to not be found hiding the cave or tell
Speaker 1: lies and just continue to tell a different story to
Speaker 1: every person you meet. And he seems to have gone
Speaker 1: with the ladder and not the former, which would explain
Speaker 1: why it's so hard to figure out who he is.
Speaker 1: Let's get on to the next theory. This um a
Speaker 1: guy named Traven towards Fan. Traven towards Fan. So, as
Speaker 1: you remember, I was talking about the filming of the
Speaker 1: Treasure this year of Modred, for which hal Crows showed
Speaker 1: up and was a technical adviser to the film. After that,
Speaker 1: after the filming was all wrapped up, Crows disappeared, and
Speaker 1: oh yeah, he just vanished. Mexican journey others named Luis
Speaker 1: Spota tried to find him and somehow I guess he,
Speaker 1: I guess he bribed somebody at a bank or something
Speaker 1: like that got some information which put put put him
Speaker 1: onto another guy solid reporting. Well, you never know what
Speaker 1: what's where the trail is gonna lead you. But he
Speaker 1: found another man who apparently connected to Crows. This guy
Speaker 1: lived on the name of Travan tourist Fan, and he
Speaker 1: lived near Acapulco, like on the outskirts of Acapulco. So
Speaker 1: Spota investigated tourist Fan and found out that he got
Speaker 1: a Foreigners ID I D Card in Mexico in nineteen
Speaker 1: thirty and a Mexican I D Card in nineteen forty two,
Speaker 1: and on both on the applications for both of these things,
Speaker 1: he claimed to be um, an American born engineer, and
Speaker 1: he claimed that his date of birth was March fifth,
Speaker 1: eet place of birth Chicago, And according to some records
Speaker 1: that he found, tourists Fan arrived in Mexico in nineteen fourteen,
Speaker 1: which I'm still scratching my head, it's from the US
Speaker 1: because if he was born in Chicago, he would have
Speaker 1: traveled there from the US. Yeah, So of course, if
Speaker 1: this is true, if the tour can't be Ret Marut,
Speaker 1: because Ret Marut was documentedly in Germany. Yeah, yeah, although
Speaker 1: it could be ret Marut lying about when he got
Speaker 1: to Mexico and from where he came to try and
Speaker 1: cover up his kind of bad past. You know that,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't You wouldn't necessarily say, oh, yeah, I I'm
Speaker 1: from Germany and I came here and I was in
Speaker 1: jail and I started a revolution and from a nation
Speaker 1: and was arrested for treason. But the timeline doesn't work.
Speaker 1: Why because if Marut was in trouble in but the
Speaker 1: documentation shows that tours Van arrived in Mexico in nineteen fourteen.
Speaker 1: Just as a point, how did how did the journalist
Speaker 1: get that information? So? Al right, Well, it is he
Speaker 1: could have just lied his application for him too. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know that. They don't know what official record means.
Speaker 1: If official record is the application he submitted in n
Speaker 1: sure he could have totally liked if it's some kind
Speaker 1: of immigration form or something like that. Could have bribed
Speaker 1: it or it could be real. It's hard to tell,
Speaker 1: especially in this time. Yeah, and you could really write
Speaker 1: whatever you wanted. Yeah yeah. Next step in his in
Speaker 1: Bota's journalistic journey, he bribed the mailman who delivered Towards
Speaker 1: Fans mail and I love it. That's just the way
Speaker 1: it goes down there, and I guess so pretty much
Speaker 1: all around the world actually. But when he opened some
Speaker 1: of those uh, some of those envelopes, he found out
Speaker 1: the tours Fan received royalties payables you've done other than
Speaker 1: ben Yeah, from a man named Joseph Wider in Zurich,
Speaker 1: which is the guy that was publisher. But to ask
Speaker 1: Towards Fan if he be traven and how crows were
Speaker 1: all the same in person, of course, Tourist Fan denied it,
Speaker 1: and supposedly emphatically in fact, even kind of angrily. But
Speaker 1: if you're trying to hide that would be and caught
Speaker 1: off guard. I could see that being a normal reaction. Yes, again,
Speaker 1: this is not like those journalists before. I said that.
Speaker 1: Tourist Spend finally admitted indirectly to being the writer, though
Speaker 1: he doesn't say exactly how he admitted indirectly. Yeah, yeah, hinky.
Speaker 1: So Spoda published an article about all that's a nice
Speaker 1: long article, I understand. I haven't read it in the
Speaker 1: newspaper Maniana in August, and Tourists Fand published an angry
Speaker 1: denial in the newspaper boy A week later tomorrow and
Speaker 1: today you love I love it. Yeah, and then and then,
Speaker 1: of course, not long after that tourist fan disappeared. So
Speaker 1: I mean, all these disappearing people, how Crows, we actually
Speaker 1: have like five mysteries and one mystery, right right, all
Speaker 1: these disappearances. Okay, but one mysterious disappearance was sold because
Speaker 1: Haw Crows who disappeared while he reappeared in Acapulco. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and he wrote a few screen adaptations of B. Traven's books,
Speaker 1: and of course also acted as his representative. He had
Speaker 1: a secretary named Rosa Elena Louhan and eventually married her
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty seven, and towards Vaughan was also in
Speaker 1: Acapulco earlier than that. I'm just seeing that going, oh wait,
Speaker 1: maybe he just liked Acapulco and he took off for
Speaker 1: a while and came back. Or maybe if it's the
Speaker 1: same person, if we're gonna if we're gonna stitch this
Speaker 1: altogether as the same person, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Between his marriage and nineteen fifty seven and his death
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty nine, Haw Crows, I guess they were
Speaker 1: happily married. Alcroz stayed hal Crows and until he died. Then,
Speaker 1: on the day of his death, his wife, Rosa Alien
Speaker 1: and Luhan of course, as you know, held a press
Speaker 1: conference and announced her Husban hal Crow's real name was
Speaker 1: Travan towards Fan Crows and that he had been born
Speaker 1: in Chicago in May eighteen to a Burton towards Fan
Speaker 1: and Dorothy Crow's. Okay. She also said that he had
Speaker 1: used the pseudonyms be Traven and Haw Crow's during his life,
Speaker 1: and then some months later she con learned that be
Speaker 1: Traven had a deed been Rehet Marut earlier in his life.
Speaker 1: So it's a mystery solved. Uh wait wait, okay, So
Speaker 1: he was born in May of eighteen, according to this,
Speaker 1: in Chicago, and then I know, um, sorry, he's never
Speaker 1: left um, and then he became Rehet Marut like immediately
Speaker 1: after that and went to he would have somehow got
Speaker 1: himself into Germany and become Reet Maud. Okay, but he
Speaker 1: was never he was never auto fi age right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think so now, but and I think my
Speaker 1: understanding of how the whole thing worked is he was
Speaker 1: born in Chicago. His parents were actually I think from Germany,
Speaker 1: and they moved back to Germany, and so they lived
Speaker 1: maybe in the first ten years of his life in
Speaker 1: America something like that, and then moved to Germany. I
Speaker 1: would explain a lot of stuff. I would explain lots yeah, Okay,
Speaker 1: well if that's right, if that's correct, yeah, and that interpretation, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm on board. And then he then he eventually I
Speaker 1: gets himself, got himself a stage name, and then you know,
Speaker 1: becomes a revolutionary and then has to leave Europe and
Speaker 1: goes to Mexico. Then where by the way, you know,
Speaker 1: he's wanted. Apparently he would be an American citizen, not
Speaker 1: a German citizen. So I don't know, if you're an
Speaker 1: American living in Germany, if you can, if you if
Speaker 1: you can commit treason, maybe that's why he didn't end
Speaker 1: up it would be yeah, yeah, maybe that's why he
Speaker 1: faked being born in America because you know, or maybe
Speaker 1: that's why he faked being what is what's his name, otto,
Speaker 1: Maximilian Lionaire, the Greek yogurt guy. Okay, what Now, there's
Speaker 1: there's one that you you haven't included here that I
Speaker 1: I found odd, but I wanted to bring up, which
Speaker 1: was I'm not saying who Betraven was from the outset
Speaker 1: accept that the theory that I saw said that he
Speaker 1: was from Germany originally and was in Mexico, and he
Speaker 1: met an American who wrote these stories and somehow bought
Speaker 1: or stole them off of that individual and then rewrote
Speaker 1: them into German, which is why there are americanisms in
Speaker 1: the German version, and then went back and said, oh wait,
Speaker 1: now I need to make this match my manuscript. Later,
Speaker 1: so when converted that English back or rewrote the English
Speaker 1: version in his own English version, that's where all the
Speaker 1: germanisms came from. Now, I again, this is one that
Speaker 1: I've seen profit on the internet a number of times,
Speaker 1: and I don't buy. But it's out there, and I
Speaker 1: think that we should at least acknowledge. I suppose we
Speaker 1: should have. I didn't include that one because it just
Speaker 1: seems so even less supportable than almost all the others
Speaker 1: out there. I think it's more supportable than Jack London. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it just seems like it just seemed to me
Speaker 1: like it was basically speculation more than anything else, and
Speaker 1: completely I totally agree with that. Yeah. So yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. So the mystery is solved or is it
Speaker 1: not at all, because yeah, she could have been lying
Speaker 1: to her the whole time, or maybe that if you
Speaker 1: can't if you can can't lie to anybody at your wife. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you can lie to your wife and people do
Speaker 1: it all the time. So I can see this guy
Speaker 1: being like, yeah, we're dating. I'm just going to make
Speaker 1: myself sound mysterious. So she's really interested in me. I
Speaker 1: can see this. I can see this play out in
Speaker 1: a thousand So it's really well for your upcoming now
Speaker 1: the show. She does think that I am an international
Speaker 1: millionaire and I don't come to record a podcast. I
Speaker 1: am dealing with my trust Funday, Well, we'll make sure
Speaker 1: support that. We'll keep your secret. We'll keep it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And also he might have told her the whole truth too,
Speaker 1: and I bet, but also expressed his wishes to for
Speaker 1: her to continue spreading the fog of BSY also on
Speaker 1: his behalf after his death. Yeah. And she, by the way,
Speaker 1: she lived until two thousand nine. I believe she lived
Speaker 1: a good long. She was a lot younger. I was
Speaker 1: gonna say she must have been a young woman when
Speaker 1: he married her. Yeah, she was quite a bit younger
Speaker 1: than him. Yeah, Yeah, it had to be Yeah, so
Speaker 1: mry so uh okay, keep saying you keep saying, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't really don't know that, you know, for any
Speaker 1: of the big mystery here is white people care so much.
Speaker 1: I'm going through this. I was really struck by the
Speaker 1: fact that so many people devoted like years of their
Speaker 1: lives to researching and tracking down and traveling to various
Speaker 1: places and checking records and interviewing people and just to
Speaker 1: try to figure out who he was. People get stuck
Speaker 1: on weird mysteries. We've experienced it, the US three. We
Speaker 1: get stuck on some weird stuff sometimes. How many times
Speaker 1: have any of us brought up the same mystery to
Speaker 1: the others? It happens, oh yeah, and then you know,
Speaker 1: one of us will be like, oh, we should do
Speaker 1: this mystery, and you guys will always be like, no, Devon,
Speaker 1: that's dumb, Joe, We've already done that one. We don't
Speaker 1: need to follow up up. I don't care what records
Speaker 1: you requested. Yeah, all right, So I need to go
Speaker 1: to the bathroom, So I'm gonna go. I gotta get
Speaker 1: some of the ministralia out of the way here so
Speaker 1: I can shut off the mixer and go to the bathroom. Okay.
Speaker 1: Find us on our website, which is Thinking Sideways podcast
Speaker 1: dot com. You can leave comments. We have links to
Speaker 1: various articles and stuff. They're related to the subject matter.
Speaker 1: And of course you can download the episodes directly from there,
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Speaker 1: like us, follow us whatever. Trademark trademark trademark. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: we're on the Twitter. We are on the Twitter. Yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: it's true. We have Our name is a little different,
Speaker 1: Thinking sideways, not Thinking Sideways. Just we dropped the G
Speaker 1: because we had to write no because it was cool. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was more. And of course there is email. Send
Speaker 1: us an email at Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. Well,
Speaker 1: and don't forget now, of course we've got we've got
Speaker 1: the shirts and stuff. Like that available on Zazzle. There's
Speaker 1: a link directly on the right hand side of our
Speaker 1: website that people can just click on and that'll take
Speaker 1: them straight to it. So we haven't done this a
Speaker 1: lot recently. We've been kind of moving away from it.
Speaker 1: But I do want to just briefly mention a pretty
Speaker 1: cool piece of listener mail we got a couple of
Speaker 1: weeks ago. No, it's just been a week. Well by
Speaker 1: the time this comes out. Yeah, anyways, it from Bowie Poag.
Speaker 1: Do you guys know who that is? Of course I
Speaker 1: do you know who that is? Yeah, listeners may remember
Speaker 1: this is the Reddit user who claims that he knows
Speaker 1: who's responsible for the Max Headroom Max Headroom broadcast intrusions.
Speaker 1: And he I'm not going to actually read like verbate
Speaker 1: him anything that he said, but mostly, well, actually that's
Speaker 1: not true. Well let's see. Well, what I like is
Speaker 1: that we didn't reach out about No, he reached out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he tracked us down and he said, just listen to
Speaker 1: your podcast, and I wanted to drop you line that says,
Speaker 1: I think you did an excellent job covering it, and
Speaker 1: I was glad that you appreciate approached the theories the
Speaker 1: way you did with good skepticism and skeptical skepticism and
Speaker 1: critical thinking that and thank you for not ripping on
Speaker 1: me for refusing to disclose any names. And then he
Speaker 1: kind of goes on we had a pretty good conversation
Speaker 1: about it, but I just thought it was kind of
Speaker 1: cool he actually reached out to us, and thanks, Bowie.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you actually are listening to all
Speaker 1: of it or you just like track down Max Headroom
Speaker 1: related stuff or whatever, but I was glad. I was
Speaker 1: glad to here that he appreciated us, because I think,
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's no way of proving anything, and uh,
Speaker 1: it's better to just protect people. Well, I yeah, again,
Speaker 1: I wanted this is one we've hung onto for a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks too that I wanted to follow up with.
Speaker 1: This is a bit of listener mail and a correction,
Speaker 1: kind of my correction because I was wrong. We Uh,
Speaker 1: we got an email from Tony Ortega over at the
Speaker 1: Raw Story, who has done a lot of reporting on
Speaker 1: scientology and if anybody remembers or has recently listened to
Speaker 1: the Miss Michelle Miss Cabbage episode, we had said we
Speaker 1: weren't sure about a fact and so we guessed at it,
Speaker 1: and Tony was kind of enough to reach out and
Speaker 1: correct us on it, which is we had questioned if
Speaker 1: anybody has listened to it sea Org. We couldn't remember
Speaker 1: if sexual relations were allowed for any reason. Turn Out
Speaker 1: we had said we thought they probably were. No, they're
Speaker 1: not at all. I think we said that they were
Speaker 1: allowed for propreational appropriate that's what it was, propreationally. Turns
Speaker 1: out no, no, no, no whatsoever. So I was I
Speaker 1: really appreciated Tony taking the time to reach out to this.
Speaker 1: And there was some again with the same as the
Speaker 1: email from Bowie, there was some other stuff there, but
Speaker 1: it was really nice to have somebody who had done
Speaker 1: a bunch of research and reporting to follow up with us.
Speaker 1: And if we ever do anything on scientology again, I
Speaker 1: know we're going to reach out. Yeah. Absolutely. I don't
Speaker 1: think we're going to be doing anything more about science.
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll see, we'll see what comes up. But yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so yeah, good listener mails, months, listener mails sending us emails.
Speaker 1: We get lots of emails. Yeah, so don't be offended
Speaker 1: if we don't read your email out out loud, because
Speaker 1: we can't really read that many and then we can't
Speaker 1: reply to all of me that we just well, no, actually,
Speaker 1: we replied to every single email. Though it may take
Speaker 1: us a week to get back to people. I make
Speaker 1: sure that every email, if none of us have grabbed it,
Speaker 1: gets responded to, so doesn't fall through the cracks. But
Speaker 1: there's so many coming in. There's just no way that
Speaker 1: we could. There's only three of us. Um yeah, so
Speaker 1: for now, at least we'll get back to you. It
Speaker 1: might it might be finally reached the point where we're
Speaker 1: gonna have to hire a bot to reply to our email.
Speaker 1: No never, I only swear that we will never never
Speaker 1: going to use a bot. Nope, nope. So thanks Joe.
Speaker 1: That's everything. Huh. Jo is pretty much everything. We could
Speaker 1: replace him with a bot. Feel free. I've got better
Speaker 1: use for my time. Oh no, don't pay too much
Speaker 1: money on that note, shall we? I think we shall
Speaker 1: yea to lou everybody, see you next week, by bye bye.
Speaker 1: And by the way, you're gonna love next week's episode.
Speaker 1: We're going to tackle the big