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Speaker 1: Thinking sideways. I don't just stories of things we simply

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Speaker 1: don't know the answer too. Hi there, welcome to a

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Speaker 1: special Encore presentation of Sticking Sideways. Encore presentation because two

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Speaker 1: days ago were recorded about of it and then realized

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Speaker 1: that we hadn't turned our mixer on. It was really

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Speaker 1: it was like our best episode. You guys. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't know about that. It wasn't really that much of

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Speaker 1: a loss. Yeah, well we're here. We're gonna repeat word

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Speaker 1: for word what we said the other day if we can. Actually,

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Speaker 1: and before I forget, I'm Joe, joined as always by

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Speaker 1: and Steve. Okay, so let's solve another mystery before I start.

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Speaker 1: I also want to give a shout out to Kenji,

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Speaker 1: who suggested the topic for this episode. Thanks can appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Keep them suggestions coming. What are we talking about tonight?

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Speaker 1: To refresh my memory? It's been a couple of days

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Speaker 1: talking about talking about be Travina. Who was this guy?

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Speaker 1: He was a German author, if you haven't heard him before,

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Speaker 1: who published thirteen books, a lot of short stories. His

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Speaker 1: books were extremely popular and sold millions of copies. His

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Speaker 1: first book was called The Cotton Pickers. It was published

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Speaker 1: in serial format in Yeah, the Cotton Pickers newspaper. Yeah, newspaper,

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Speaker 1: got it. The second novel is called The death Ship,

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Speaker 1: which I really liked that title of came out in

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Speaker 1: ninety six, and all of these books were originally published

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Speaker 1: in German. By the way, I don't think I mentioned that,

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Speaker 1: So these were published in Germany. Death Ship became a

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Speaker 1: movie in nineteen fifty nine. Movie was it called the

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Speaker 1: death Ship? Yeah? Okay. His third, well, The Treasure of

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Speaker 1: the Sierra Madre, was published the year after that. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure if that was made into a movie or not. Wait,

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Speaker 1: let me, I'll look on the Google. Okay, I do that.

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Speaker 1: Definitely not faked at all. U huh, totally doing this, yeah,

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Speaker 1: in which was starring Humphrey Bogart. Who Yeah, no, Humphrey Bogart.

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Speaker 1: You know him? Oh, the actor? Yeah, Frankly, my dear,

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Speaker 1: I don't give it. Yeah, the multi Falcon. Yeah he

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Speaker 1: played it for her. You can play it for me, sham,

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Speaker 1: Yeah that guy, Yeah, good old Bogie. Back to be Travin.

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Speaker 1: His books were very popular in the US, in Mexico

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Speaker 1: after they were translated into Spanish, and also in Europe.

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Speaker 1: Quite a few were adapted, as I said, from movies

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Speaker 1: and TV shows. But what's strange about Travan is that,

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Speaker 1: despite a very long later career and a huge, huge

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Speaker 1: fan base, nobody actually knows who he really was, or

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Speaker 1: where he was born or when he was born. Nobody

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Speaker 1: really knows, and he was always it was always kind

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Speaker 1: of coy about the whole thing. I said. Before he

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Speaker 1: was German. He published his books in German, but some

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Speaker 1: people think he may actually have been born in Chicago.

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Speaker 1: Travin himself always claimed to be an American, and even

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Speaker 1: while he was still alive he died in nineteen sixty nine,

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Speaker 1: people were trying really hard to figure out who he

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Speaker 1: actually was and not just read it. Here I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about journalists and people like that read it's really good

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Speaker 1: at figuring out who actually better at time, Well, actually

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Speaker 1: they are journalists do some amazingly hacky things sometimes, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and read it. It's just kind of like, O, no, no no, no,

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Speaker 1: this is obviously this person. Yeah. But yeah, but there's

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Speaker 1: also the fact that read it wasn't around then, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was it in nineteen fifties. Around it was an

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Speaker 1: analog form was a card catalog. They had clanked and

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Speaker 1: clacked a lot like Computer Star Trek. I feel like

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Speaker 1: the Internet. I'll have to look it up. You know,

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Speaker 1: the Internet originally was in some form, but Red did

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Speaker 1: itself was not. Okay, Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I

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Speaker 1: can argue. I'm not sure when the Darknet started. I'll

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Speaker 1: do a google. After the show started with Dara, Well,

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Speaker 1: you know probably what happened. If if Devin's right, is

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Speaker 1: that the original code name of the Darpinnet when it

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Speaker 1: was being created was Reddit read it, I find it? Okay, Okay.

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Speaker 1: Back to Betraven. At the start of his larious success,

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Speaker 1: he was living in Mexico and he stayed there pretty

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Speaker 1: much until he died, and he traveled, abrought a little bit,

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Speaker 1: but basically lived in Mexico. His publishers in Europe and

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Speaker 1: America never met him. He dealt with them only through representatives.

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Speaker 1: Warner Brothers brought the rights to the Treasure of the

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Speaker 1: Sierra Madre in ninety one and they signed up John

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Speaker 1: Houston to direct. I'm sure you've heard of him. What

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Speaker 1: else did Houston direct? Do you know? Off the top

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Speaker 1: of your head. I know Houston did a bunch of stuff.

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Speaker 1: Just kidd I you know, I'm having a bit of

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Speaker 1: vaporlock right now. Okay, if you want to know what

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Speaker 1: he looks like, watch Chinatown. Did you ever see Chinatown

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Speaker 1: with Jack Nicholson. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he plays he

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Speaker 1: plays the elderly bad guy in Chinatown. Oh okay, here

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Speaker 1: you're talking about Okay, okay, keeps calling him Mr gets Yeah, nothing,

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Speaker 1: you tell it's been a long time. I don't quite

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Speaker 1: get that joke. Yeah, Okay. Nicholson's name was Giddies and

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Speaker 1: but this guy he kept mispronouncing his name, Mr. Getts.

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Speaker 1: So if if anybody, lots of our listeners are cackling

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Speaker 1: hysterically right now. Hilarious. Actually, if you haven't seen Chinatown,

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Speaker 1: you should see it. It's a classic, really good movie. Okay,

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Speaker 1: back to I'm getting all of course here. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: said he used to set up a meeting with Travan

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Speaker 1: in nine in Mexico City, but Travin didn't make it

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Speaker 1: to the meeting. A quotes included, right, yeah. Instead, a

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Speaker 1: guy named hal Crow showed up with a letter which

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Speaker 1: was a power of attorney from B. Travn. In the letter,

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Speaker 1: Travan authorized hal Crows decide all matters regarding the filming

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Speaker 1: of the novel. So Crows and not be Traven was

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Speaker 1: present for the filming of the movie on location in Mexico.

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Speaker 1: That might suggest you would think, well, yeah, a lot

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Speaker 1: of people that were involved with the film, we're asking

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Speaker 1: Crows if he was actually be Travin. Crows always said

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Speaker 1: that he was not. He probably was Travin. I will

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Speaker 1: never know absolutely for sure. I'm kind of guessing he was.

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Speaker 1: That most of the crew believed that Crows and Trading

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Speaker 1: were the same person, although John Houston came to believe

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Speaker 1: that they weren't the same person for god knows what reason.

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Speaker 1: But I'm only recoinding this one story because it's so

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Speaker 1: typical Travin. He was sold. He was always real cagy

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Speaker 1: about his identity and protecting his privacy. He his motivation

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Speaker 1: might have been quote the creative person should have no

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Speaker 1: other biography than his works unquote. And that's from Travin. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's unusual for somebody to want to

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Speaker 1: put their work into the public eye, whether it be

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Speaker 1: writing or music or whatever it is. For most people,

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Speaker 1: there's a there's a bit of hubrist there. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: to not want to be known. He's well I think

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Speaker 1: the irony of that is that, you know, if he

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Speaker 1: if he had truly just written his books and kind

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Speaker 1: of gone about his life, we would remember his works

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Speaker 1: likely but nobody would care who this betraven dude was

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Speaker 1: other than an author. And you know he lived in Mexico. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but the fact that he was so cagy with his

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Speaker 1: true identity and so standoffish it is really the reason

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Speaker 1: that he's remembered for anything other than his work. Like

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Speaker 1: you said, ironic, that true irony, real kind of irony,

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Speaker 1: not like yeah or or it could be he's even

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Speaker 1: he's even smarter than we realized. And he did this

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Speaker 1: on purpose so that people would be be, you know,

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Speaker 1: obsessing over who he really was for many, many decades

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Speaker 1: after he actually did want to be remembered. That maybe

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Speaker 1: that's it sneaky. Yeah, Probably the reason he hit from

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Speaker 1: the public eye is that he was private and he

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Speaker 1: just wanted people to read his books and not not

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Speaker 1: think about him. It appears that be Travan arrived in

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Speaker 1: Mexico or around nineteen twenty four, though it's a little

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Speaker 1: bit of dispute about this. I think as early as

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Speaker 1: ninety two. One person says in nineteen fourteen. I've read

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Speaker 1: something about much earlier, So okay, Thanking fourteen is the

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Speaker 1: earliest accounting we have of trading arriving in Mexico, whether

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Speaker 1: it's accurate or not. That's the earliest. Does not appear

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Speaker 1: to be accurate, but we'll we'll figure out why it

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Speaker 1: a little bit here. His widow said that he signed

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Speaker 1: on he got to Mexico by signing I was a

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Speaker 1: crew member on a ship from England to Norway. She

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Speaker 1: said it was a death ship. That's what I guess

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Speaker 1: where he got. And then from Norway you got caught

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Speaker 1: another ship to Africa, and on the third he went

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Speaker 1: to Mexico from Africa. Yeah, from Africa. I just believe

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Speaker 1: he got the inspiration for death ship from his experience

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Speaker 1: on his long voyage. It makes sense. Yeah, well, the

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Speaker 1: death ship and I think the cotton pickers are both

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Speaker 1: deal a lot with what the proletariat experiences in these

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Speaker 1: terrible working conditions, So it would make sense that that's

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Speaker 1: where he pulled a bunch of the content from. That

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Speaker 1: was a big word for you, I know, proletariat. I

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Speaker 1: googled it. Yeah, sorry, you're not dumb. I'm sorry. I

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Speaker 1: think It's one of the ironic things about the industrial revolutions.

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Speaker 1: You hear so many horror stories, but people still flock

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Speaker 1: from the farms in the fields to go work in

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Speaker 1: the factories. Well better, because working on the farm sucks

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Speaker 1: or it sucks. And I think about farms. That's different

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Speaker 1: from factories is on farms you get these things called

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Speaker 1: failed harvests, and then after that, you guys, what's called

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Speaker 1: a famine. At least you got in the factory. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: even if it pays terrible, pays better than corn. The

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Speaker 1: farm thing, although it sounds like the living conditions were worse.

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Speaker 1: But hey, we're way off track. Who cares, We don't

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Speaker 1: have to do that. Back to this story here is

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Speaker 1: from Mexico. Travan submitted his novels for publication in Europe

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Speaker 1: in German in nineteen three, manuscripts of his earlier novels

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Speaker 1: in English to Alfred A. Knopp in New York for publication,

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Speaker 1: and he said that he claimed that these were the

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Speaker 1: original works and the ones previously published were just translations. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when did the German versions get submitted to publishers? And anyway,

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Speaker 1: still nineteen thirty three to submit him so we're talking

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Speaker 1: half a decade to a decade later, about eight years.

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Speaker 1: It's just that there's so many weird dates, and there's

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Speaker 1: so many conflicting things. I just want to try and

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Speaker 1: keep this linear, is possible, Yeah, with this story, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of hard to keep all the details straight in

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Speaker 1: your head. Just confusing that. The thing that's odd about

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Speaker 1: these translated the English version is people who happen to

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Speaker 1: read both German and English have said that there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of differences between the German and the English versions.

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Speaker 1: It's and the people claim that the German ones contain americanisms,

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Speaker 1: whatever those are. Yeah, I still don't understand what that is. Colloquialism,

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Speaker 1: perhaps colloquialisms, although that varies by region. That could be Canadian,

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Speaker 1: could be Mexican, yeah, but that it can't be Mexican

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Speaker 1: colloquialisms because who come from Spanish. Yeah. My German vocabulary

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Speaker 1: consists of about five words, so I'm not reading them

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Speaker 1: in German to find nor am I. Yeah, but the

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Speaker 1: americanisms in his books is why so many people believe

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Speaker 1: that he was born in America. But then here's the

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Speaker 1: funny part. The English version supposedly contain Germanisms, and I

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Speaker 1: haven't read, so I can't comment. The only thing I

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Speaker 1: can think of is is like the Fatherland, statements like that,

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Speaker 1: things that are just so common to say that you

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Speaker 1: hear in direct translations. Those are the only things that

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Speaker 1: I can think of that would be in there that

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Speaker 1: could be called a Germanism. If he was born in

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Speaker 1: America but grew up in like a German slum or something,

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Speaker 1: he would be surrounded by people speaking both German and English.

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Speaker 1: It's possible that he was fluent in both. It's possible

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Speaker 1: that when he wrote, he had both Americanisms and Germanisms,

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Speaker 1: and therefore that accounts. You know, I assume that they're separate.

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Speaker 1: It's not like the Americanism is replaced with the Germanism

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Speaker 1: in the English translation. So it's possible that he just

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Speaker 1: picked up both of them. That's possible that both versions

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Speaker 1: had both Americanisms, and and that you just notice it

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Speaker 1: in the other language because hey, it's different. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess yeah. And and there are apparently either differences

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Speaker 1: between the two books too. But he if he did

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Speaker 1: submit them years after the first one, is maybe he

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Speaker 1: just revised them a little bit, because you know, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to make them better and to appeal to the reader. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it could be that. Yeah, it appears that Mr Travan

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Speaker 1: was one of three people Barrick Travan towards then Rhett

220
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Speaker 1: Marut or how Crows, or possibly all three. All right,

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Speaker 1: well we'll skip let's skip right straight into the theories.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna go. We're gonna start with the less likely

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Speaker 1: ones first. Okay, yeah, it sounds good. Yeah, Okay, we're

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Speaker 1: doing like the list thing that we do sometimes we're

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Speaker 1: just like list a bunch of stupid theories and then

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Speaker 1: talk about some good ones. Okay, so it looks like

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Speaker 1: it's perfect. Yeah, we can discuss. We can discuss these

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Speaker 1: these as much as you guys want to. First, Traman

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Speaker 1: was an amalgamation of two or more people who collaborated

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Speaker 1: on the books and the stories. Yeah, it doesn't know

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Speaker 1: how many. There's not a lot of great works out

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Speaker 1: there that were written by collaboration. There aren't. That's a

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Speaker 1: hard thing to do. Yeah, well you only see it

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Speaker 1: in fantasy sci fi novels, ye, mysteries. Yeah, you do

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Speaker 1: see a lot of fantasy and sci fi oddly enough. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so much for that theory. Another theory is that it

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Speaker 1: was hiding from a dark past, and he apparently was

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Speaker 1: huh yeah, we'll talk about that in one of the

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Speaker 1: more serious theory theories if he was. Indeed, some people

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Speaker 1: believe he was re b Root, which I'm guessing we're

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Speaker 1: going to get to. Yeah, yeah, okay, next one. Travan

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00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,880
Speaker 1: was just a shy guy. Oh shy guy, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: shy guy, a little blue boom shy guy. Yeah, I

244
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,520
Speaker 1: don't get there. That's what they call just playing Nintendo

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00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,400
Speaker 1: game sometime. Just I grew up on Nintendo games. Which

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Speaker 1: blue shy guy? Are we talking? It's not blue? A

247
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:37,120
Speaker 1: little shy guy nature of low load notes from Super

248
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Speaker 1: Mario guys. Oh yes, I don't who you're talking about?

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Speaker 1: Failed Joe. Alright, keep moving. Let's do another theory here,

250
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Speaker 1: and that. Another theory is that Travan was the pen

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Speaker 1: name of Adolpho Lopez Mateos, who was President of Mexico

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Speaker 1: from nineteen fifty eight to sixty four. And it's probably

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Speaker 1: I started because his sister, Esperanza Lopez Mateos, translated eight

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Speaker 1: of Traven's books into Spanish, and he was also be

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Speaker 1: Travan's literary representative for a while about ten years I

256
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,840
Speaker 1: think she was think she was okay, So you can

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00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,960
Speaker 1: see how that that rumor might have gotten started. Um,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what to make of this. I don't

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Speaker 1: think Mateo spoke German. Maybe he did, but maybe his

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Speaker 1: sister did. You got another area is that Travan was

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Speaker 1: the pen name of Esperanza Lopez Mateos herself. Yeah, yea,

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Speaker 1: so maybe she spoke German. Well, but do we know

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Speaker 1: what language she translated the it into Spanish from did

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Speaker 1: she translated from English? Which would make sense that she

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Speaker 1: was fluent in English and Spanish. I know she spoke

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Speaker 1: eight languages, but I'm just thinking on the order of

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Speaker 1: likelihood what languages she would speak. Yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that German would be that highland in

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Speaker 1: that it might be maybe I don't know, And that's

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Speaker 1: why I'm asking. I mean in terms of like large

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Speaker 1: world players, right, Germany is a pretty big world power.

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Speaker 1: And if you're trying to study up on languages based

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Speaker 1: on who you were most likely to have to communicate with,

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Speaker 1: particularly if you were the president's sister, I would say

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Speaker 1: Germans a solid choice, English, Spanish, German, probably some pan

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Speaker 1: Asian Japanese, Chinese, probably Italian. Yeah, I don't know. That's

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Speaker 1: why I'm asked. I would say it's I would say

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Speaker 1: that it's a pretty good chance that she spoke German.

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Speaker 1: I don't know fluently enough to translate full novels. But

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Speaker 1: that's really I mean, yeah, you got another language, really

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Speaker 1: really well. Do we know when she was his his agent,

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Speaker 1: his representative. I believe it was from like nineteen one. Okay,

283
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,680
Speaker 1: I could see German being on the list at that time. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm just just asking anyway. Our next theory, this is

285
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,080
Speaker 1: a good one. Traman was actually Ambrose Bears. Actually, you

286
00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,360
Speaker 1: guys have heard of this same rings a bell? Yeah,

287
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,200
Speaker 1: but I can't think of who ring a bell from

288
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:10,639
Speaker 1: Tuesday or Yeah. I know it's a literary figure. It's

289
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:16,000
Speaker 1: famous author and satirist. Yeah. Yeah. Beers went to Mexico

290
00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,080
Speaker 1: during the Mexican Revolution in nineteen thirteen because he wanted

291
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:20,840
Speaker 1: to check it out, perhaps report on it. And I'm

292
00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,600
Speaker 1: not sure, and he vanished without a trace. Another one

293
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,680
Speaker 1: solid mystery. Huh oh, yeah, that one not me. Yeah,

294
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,560
Speaker 1: he banished. Problem with this theory is that he was

295
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:37,040
Speaker 1: born in eighteen Yeah, so that kind of he'd be

296
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:44,120
Speaker 1: an old old man seven years old, so I think

297
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,920
Speaker 1: we can discount this one. Yeah, Now there was that

298
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,040
Speaker 1: he Tradman was the illegitimate son of Emperor of Villenham.

299
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Speaker 1: The second. Okay, what's the foundation on this? I mean why,

300
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:58,240
Speaker 1: I can't think of anything other than that, Like during

301
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,800
Speaker 1: like World War One and so like that he was

302
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,200
Speaker 1: he was able to publish his little his little agitation

303
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,320
Speaker 1: magazine whatever it was, called The Brickmaker, and one paper

304
00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,640
Speaker 1: was in short supply and being rationed. So they thought, well,

305
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,760
Speaker 1: maybe he's got royal connections. But that ties in with

306
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,440
Speaker 1: a different theory about who betrayven is right. Yeah, it's

307
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,840
Speaker 1: not sure that he was the one who was publishing

308
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,240
Speaker 1: The Brickmaker, right, No, it's not. No, not really, that's true.

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00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,719
Speaker 1: A lot of people believe that he was, sure, but

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00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,880
Speaker 1: it's not. I mean, that's also just a theory. That's

311
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:35,640
Speaker 1: just yeah, stronger, stronger, possibility, stronger. The next theory traveling

312
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,360
Speaker 1: was Jack London. Jack London died in at the age

313
00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,080
Speaker 1: of forty, but some people think he faked his death,

314
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,440
Speaker 1: moved to Mexico and continued his writing career, and then

315
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:54,720
Speaker 1: died fifty years later. Again there's the old old man issue.

316
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,440
Speaker 1: That's that's a little more credible than a hundred seven.

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00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:04,760
Speaker 1: But they're okay, what what officially did London die from? You?

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00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 1: Either of your overdose? Well, some people say that I

319
00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,399
Speaker 1: heard that he had an internal infection. I think the

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00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,960
Speaker 1: official cause of death on his death certificate was drug

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00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,639
Speaker 1: over He was taking morphine for the pain because he

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00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,080
Speaker 1: had some serious salem. So I could see where it

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00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,520
Speaker 1: be seriously easy to Actually a lot of people do it,

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00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:30,080
Speaker 1: but particularly at that time. Yeah, self medication was the

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00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,560
Speaker 1: way to medicate. Well yeah, and that's terrifying. Morphine and

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00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 1: stuff like that easy to do. If I'm never in

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Speaker 1: the hospital and they say would you like morphine? My

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00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,720
Speaker 1: answer will be no. I will scream thank you. But

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00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:48,480
Speaker 1: my question is, isn't there I swear there's something about

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00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:53,800
Speaker 1: images or accountings of people who were who saw London's

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Speaker 1: body after because he there was an autopsy done. Wasn't

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00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,480
Speaker 1: there on London? I think so? And I we're I've

333
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:05,600
Speaker 1: seen something about people having seen the body post the autopsy,

334
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,040
Speaker 1: So that would that would lend me to say to

335
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,840
Speaker 1: poopoo on this one? Yeah, not an okay theory because

336
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,720
Speaker 1: of that I think it's a bad theory. The theory.

337
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,200
Speaker 1: I mean, there's no particular reason he needed to do this,

338
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,359
Speaker 1: and he was already successful writer, yeah and he was,

339
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,720
Speaker 1: and he was he wasn't against sick and very poor

340
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,680
Speaker 1: health and taking morphine, So that at least me to

341
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:28,879
Speaker 1: believe that he probably just accidentally o'deed or had a

342
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:33,439
Speaker 1: natural causes and yeah, he had no real motive death.

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00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,960
Speaker 1: Uh see. Another another's last of the loopie theories. B

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00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,920
Speaker 1: Traven was a pen name of a guy named August

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00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,439
Speaker 1: Beblje and I might be mispronouncing them, who was a

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00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,160
Speaker 1: German from Hamburg who wasn't an adventurer and actually did

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00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,200
Speaker 1: spend time in Mexico. But of course I don't know

348
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,160
Speaker 1: why he came up with this theory and proposal because

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00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,880
Speaker 1: Belge died in the Spanish Civil War in the late thirties,

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00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 1: so probably not him. Probably not yeah, yeah, unless he

351
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 1: faked his own death. Yeah, that could have been it.

352
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:08,480
Speaker 1: But again, a couple of these are faked death scenarios,

353
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 1: and I don't I don't understand why. Okay, I can

354
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:19,359
Speaker 1: see somebody having a big political shift or an ideology

355
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:24,400
Speaker 1: shift and changing the things that they write but I

356
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 1: can't see somebody doing that and saying this is gonna

357
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:34,640
Speaker 1: cause a firestorm. So instead I'll just die and come

358
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 1: back as somebody else so I don't damage that other reputation.

359
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,920
Speaker 1: That's that's an odd train of thought. I think in general,

360
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 1: fixed death theories are kind of bunk in my book. Okay,

361
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 1: I think it does happen. I've done it a few times. Yeah,

362
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,680
Speaker 1: but don't need to get away from girlfriends pretty much

363
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,959
Speaker 1: to escape my debtor. Yeah, government, Yeah, let's dive into

364
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,719
Speaker 1: some meteor theories like good ones. Yeah. Better, you know,

365
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 1: I'll see how you like him. I thought we were talking,

366
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 1: like knew were there. I'm sorry, that's what I thought.

367
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,640
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. All right, what do we got? The first

368
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 1: one of the documents to the reet ma Rout thing,

369
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:25,359
Speaker 1: as I mentioned before, and as like foreshadowed, honestly, yeah,

370
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 1: well this is actually it was actually the connection between

371
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 1: ret mar uts is some claim was made by an

372
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 1: East German author named Rolf rec Nagel, but actually it

373
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 1: was actually made by one of his fellow revolutionaries, a

374
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,159
Speaker 1: guy named Eric Mousseum. You probably wondering about revolutionaries. He

375
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,679
Speaker 1: got you kind of ret Rout Actually appeared on the

376
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 1: scene in the early nineteen hundreds in Germany. He was

377
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 1: an actor, occasionally wrote plays, also directed plays, danced and

378
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 1: all that stuff, and then eventually started Yeah, I guess,

379
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 1: I guess whatever theater was like in Germany in those days,

380
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 1: that was in the live so I don't know. Yeah,

381
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 1: Eventually he got involved in politics and joined up with

382
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 1: a bunch of a bunch of revolutionaries in Bavaria, and

383
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 1: one of them was Eric Moosem, who and read My

384
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 1: Roots had a distinctive writing style that and Eric was

385
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 1: some recognize that, and it it first made the connection. So

386
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 1: a nice German author named Ralph rock Nagel, who I

387
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 1: just mentioned, wrote a book about in nineteen sixties six,

388
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 1: we did some while while Travan was still alive, right,

389
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 1: unless he faked his death in sixty to get away

390
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 1: from this, So I'm not sure that this is Obviously

391
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: the sixties sixty six is still I'm fairly late in

392
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 1: the game. I mean, people back in the forties where

393
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 1: we're trying to guess what his real identity was. But

394
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,479
Speaker 1: this this just made it like sort of flare up

395
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 1: anew And actually, I guess I guess, actually you could

396
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: say that it was back in the twenties when people

397
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 1: actually because it was actually the publication of the Death

398
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 1: Ship in Germany that started this, because that's when Eric

399
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: Lewis Um recognized his writing style. Let's get back into

400
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 1: what he was up to in Bavaria. I said, he

401
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 1: performed on stage and at the After the outbreak of

402
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 1: World War One, he became politically active and he founded

403
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: an anarchist magazine slash newspaper called There's Sigl Brenner, which

404
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: it literally means the brickmaker. Yeah, what we're talking about earlier, Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.

405
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: And then on Wikipedia says brick burner. A lot of

406
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 1: people have it that as brick burner, but it actually

407
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 1: means brickmaker in German. Why is that? Because the word

408
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: brenner in German means burner, but if you pair it

409
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 1: up with the word brick, it's it becomes brickmaker. Germans weird,

410
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: We thank you. Yeah, well but yeah, okay, so I

411
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 1: didn't grew up speaking German, thought, so, yeah, I founded

412
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 1: this anarchist magazine. And after the proclamation of the Bavarians

413
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: Sylvia a Republican Munich, they actually started and had this

414
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 1: little revolution in Munich in Bavaria, and that happened in

415
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen my Root Root was made director of the

416
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 1: press division and he became a member also the propaganda

417
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: committee of the quote unquote government, which some called the

418
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 1: fake Soviet Republic. And it was during this time that

419
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 1: we got to know Eric Moussum and he was one

420
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: of the Eric Moussam was one of the leaders of

421
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: the anarchists in Munich. And when the death Ship started

422
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: to appear in other ones, that's when Mussum compared his

423
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 1: writing style with the Brickmaker articles and decided they must

424
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: have been written by the same person. So I'm back

425
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: to Rolph Rachnagel, the guy in nineteen six in the

426
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties who wrote this book about it. Yeah, he

427
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 1: tracked out a whole bunch of those revolutionaries as many

428
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: as he could to get their opinions on that and

429
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: and find out what they knew, and then wrote a

430
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: book about it. And they all said, hey, this is

431
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 1: the same writing style. Okay, So it doesn't necessarily prove

432
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: much so well, no, because it's forty years later, fifty

433
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: years later. Oh no, no, it's not that far. Well though,

434
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: if if this, if this revolution takes place in nineteen nineteen,

435
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: that's when is really active, and they may not have

436
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: read any of his stuff since then. But I thought

437
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 1: that that Eric was soon read the read the test

438
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 1: Ship at least like not too long after it was published,

439
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: which would have been n So we're talking eight years, yeah,

440
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: in seven years. Yeah, It's just it's it's when there's

441
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 1: any kind of time. If I've got two documents in

442
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,479
Speaker 1: front of me, totally can see the similarities in style,

443
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 1: but if I'm trying to recollect, because that's that's my

444
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 1: my issue with uh, these guys that were in this

445
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: movement is did they have documents that were supposedly written

446
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: by Marut to then compare against or was it just

447
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 1: and this really sounds like that other guy. That's that's

448
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 1: my question. I don't know if there's any if there's

449
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: any correlation, or if it's just memory. There might have

450
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 1: been well, I don't know, there might have been copies

451
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 1: of the brickmakers still laying around that hadn't been recycled yet.

452
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that seems like, you know, if that

453
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 1: was something that you were proud of in your history,

454
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 1: you would scrap book that. I mean, you know whatever,

455
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: the dude early nineteen hundred equivalent of scrap booking is.

456
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: But you would keep that sort of stuff. If that

457
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 1: was a publication and a movement that you were really

458
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 1: a part of, you keep that and you can pull

459
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: it out and say, oh, hey, remember when we did this. Yeah,

460
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: I just I just want to know if it was.

461
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that we'd have to read the book

462
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 1: by it's wreck nagel, okay, And maybe he lays out

463
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: that he you know, they had these two things to compare.

464
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: I'm just I don't know that also, I guess in fairness.

465
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: The other thing that I would point out is that

466
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: just because the book was published eight years after doesn't

467
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: mean that he was writing it eight years after, Right,

468
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 1: he could have been writing it the whole time, because

469
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: it takes a while to get stuff blish, it takes

470
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: a while to write now, so it could have been

471
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 1: within a couple of years that he had been writing that.

472
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: So the style could have been quite similar, particularly if

473
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: he had a really I don't know, bold way of writing. Yeah,

474
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: I'm not going to dispute that at all. So their

475
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 1: little revolution didn't last long. Essentially, they the White Guards

476
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: came in and rated them in May nineteen nineteen, and

477
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,479
Speaker 1: that was the end of the very Soviet Republic. They

478
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: lasted a couple of months. Yeah. Yeah, Ret was arrested

479
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 1: along a bunch of the others and supposedly they were

480
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: going to execute them for treason. But I don't know

481
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 1: if they actually we're planning on doing that or not.

482
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: But he's something I managed to escape, and so maybe

483
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: they were going to execute. And when it's then his

484
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: captors decided, yeah, we're just gonna let you go. Excided

485
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: really don't want to see a gate head cut off,

486
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: and so you managed to sneak off, and he spent

487
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: the next several years laying well in Germany and Austria,

488
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: and then eventually, of course, as we know, he made

489
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: his way to Mexico. Okay, okay, And I was talking

490
00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: about another guy fight fight I fight. It's it's like

491
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: that yogurt, right, fight age. It's that Greek yogurtge fight age.

492
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: It says on the front of the yogurt. Okay, I'm

493
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:14,479
Speaker 1: clearly the only lady and want to the Greek yogurt

494
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: in this room. Yeah, I think so. Oh my goodness, sorry,

495
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: all the blank look like you've never heard of Greek

496
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: yogurt before. I've never heard of yogurt before. What is

497
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: this stuff you call yogurt? Sorry, I'm sorry, let's just

498
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: talk about check. So this came out because in late

499
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: nineteen tried to travel to Canada through England. But this

500
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: is after having escaped. Yeah, this ise He escaped in

501
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: in nineteen nine and hung around Europe laying low because

502
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: he was wanted by the authorities for treason. Tried to

503
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: travel to Canada, got busted in England for being a

504
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: foreigner without a residence permit. You got to spend two

505
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: and a half months in jail. Man at that time.

506
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: During interrogations ASTs with the cops, he's told told them

507
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: that his real name was Herman Otto Albert Maximilian fig name.

508
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: I would not have wanted to have to write that

509
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: on my homework as a kid. Imagine writing checks. It's

510
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: time to pay my boils. Christ I hate the sime

511
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: of the mom. He also said that he's from the

512
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: city of Schreibus in Germany, which is in Poland today.

513
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: And a couple of BBC journalists and Will Wyatt and

514
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: Robert Robinson that was her British names. Yeah, British. Yeah,

515
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: they found they found out about his jail interrogation and

516
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: this claim of this name in the city. So they

517
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: want to Poland where Scribus is is not now a

518
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: new name too, And they checked the local records and

519
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: they confirmed that his claims were apparently true. What year

520
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: was this that, Oh you know, that was in the sixties.

521
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: I believe I could be wrong. Yeah, And they had

522
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: photos of Reton Root and b Travan apparently Retroot he

523
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: was photographed when he was when he was busted. And

524
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: I've seen that picture, and I've seen the pictures of Betraven,

525
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 1: the supposed pictures of Betrayal looks very similar. Could be

526
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: the same guy. So he had a couple of siblings

527
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: still alive out of fives did and they interviewed the

528
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: sisters and showed him pictures of the Reton Root and

529
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: be Travin and they appeared to recognize him. Appeared. Yeah,

530
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if they actually said like, oh, yeah,

531
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: that's my mom. That's how long lost brother, because he

532
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: disappeared years and years before. Yeah, okay, so how many

533
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: years like it happened kids sixties, We're talking forty years. Yeah, yeah,

534
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: he so he disappeared around nineteen o four, nineteen five. Yeah,

535
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: while we're years Yeah, yeah, memory gets a little you know,

536
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: remory fades a little bit, and so they never actually

537
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: said it was just kind of like yeah, and I

538
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: think that. Yeah. So if let's see, like the picture

539
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: of Reton Root, which I believe it was the police

540
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: photograph would have been taken, Um, if he disappeared, let's

541
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: stay eight, he would have aged eighteen years, maybe it

542
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 1: still would have been recognizable. I mean, I guess there's

543
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: something to be said for uh, you know, that dude

544
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: looks like Uncle Jerry. You know, he looks he looks

545
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: like he belongs in our family. He looks like the

546
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: family lineage. So yeah, it might be him. And we

547
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: had a brother who disappeared who looks kind of like

548
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: he might end up looking like that. So the other

549
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: thing we need to keep in mind is photography at

550
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: the time is not what we're all used to as

551
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,719
Speaker 1: photography today. The picture is not bad, but you know,

552
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: film photography, it degrades. And if it's if the film

553
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: is a little dirty and it's not processed right, those

554
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: things can get a little fuzzy and a little off.

555
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: So it's um, oh, what is it? They it's kind

556
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: of that vignette field that you'll see where they kind

557
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: of soften every thing. That's what it's. It harkens back

558
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 1: to is the day when it wasn't easy to get

559
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: a perfectly good in focus shot and it was at

560
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: hard back in the day. Well, the thing I found

561
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 1: a little odd about this is that if they recognized

562
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: him as their brother, long lost brother, you think they say,

563
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: oh my god, can you tell me where he is

564
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: so we can find him? They didn't do that. Well,

565
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: that's why I suspect that it was just kind of

566
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: a look of recognition on their faces. You know, journalists

567
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: took to mean that they recognized him, and since they

568
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: were Yeah, as we were talking about earlier journalists, maybe

569
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: not the best. Yeah, they cut some corners sometimes, let's

570
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: face it. Anyway, back to Otto, he disappeared in nineteen

571
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: o four oh five, and so it looks like d

572
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: of this series that out of five adopted Rett Maroot

573
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: as a stage name and or and also a nomdue

574
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: gear when he later became a revolutionary. That's your favorite phrase. Yeah,

575
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: some people have disputed this because they're saying you couldn't

576
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: have been more to German because there's too many Americanisms

577
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: in his writing. Again, I don't want an americanism is

578
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: so I don't know if the Oddifa thing. It seems

579
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 1: like everywhere that Traven went or ret mad or whoever

580
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: you like, to spin a big cloud of bs and

581
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: leave leave a big leave a lot of false trails,

582
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: which if he didn't want to be found, really two

583
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,439
Speaker 1: ways to not be found hiding the cave or tell

584
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 1: lies and just continue to tell a different story to

585
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: every person you meet. And he seems to have gone

586
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: with the ladder and not the former, which would explain

587
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: why it's so hard to figure out who he is.

588
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: Let's get on to the next theory. This um a

589
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: guy named Traven towards Fan. Traven towards Fan. So, as

590
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: you remember, I was talking about the filming of the

591
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: Treasure this year of Modred, for which hal Crows showed

592
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 1: up and was a technical adviser to the film. After that,

593
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: after the filming was all wrapped up, Crows disappeared, and

594
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 1: oh yeah, he just vanished. Mexican journey others named Luis

595
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: Spota tried to find him and somehow I guess he,

596
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 1: I guess he bribed somebody at a bank or something

597
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 1: like that got some information which put put put him

598
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: onto another guy solid reporting. Well, you never know what

599
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: what's where the trail is gonna lead you. But he

600
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: found another man who apparently connected to Crows. This guy

601
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: lived on the name of Travan tourist Fan, and he

602
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: lived near Acapulco, like on the outskirts of Acapulco. So

603
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: Spota investigated tourist Fan and found out that he got

604
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: a Foreigners ID I D Card in Mexico in nineteen

605
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: thirty and a Mexican I D Card in nineteen forty two,

606
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: and on both on the applications for both of these things,

607
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: he claimed to be um, an American born engineer, and

608
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: he claimed that his date of birth was March fifth,

609
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,800
Speaker 1: eet place of birth Chicago, And according to some records

610
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: that he found, tourists Fan arrived in Mexico in nineteen fourteen,

611
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,720
Speaker 1: which I'm still scratching my head, it's from the US

612
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: because if he was born in Chicago, he would have

613
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: traveled there from the US. Yeah, So of course, if

614
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: this is true, if the tour can't be Ret Marut,

615
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: because Ret Marut was documentedly in Germany. Yeah, yeah, although

616
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: it could be ret Marut lying about when he got

617
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: to Mexico and from where he came to try and

618
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: cover up his kind of bad past. You know that,

619
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 1: you wouldn't You wouldn't necessarily say, oh, yeah, I I'm

620
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 1: from Germany and I came here and I was in

621
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: jail and I started a revolution and from a nation

622
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,479
Speaker 1: and was arrested for treason. But the timeline doesn't work.

623
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: Why because if Marut was in trouble in but the

624
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 1: documentation shows that tours Van arrived in Mexico in nineteen fourteen.

625
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: Just as a point, how did how did the journalist

626
00:36:55,200 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: get that information? So? Al right, Well, it is he

627
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 1: could have just lied his application for him too. I mean,

628
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: I don't know that. They don't know what official record means.

629
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 1: If official record is the application he submitted in n

630
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: sure he could have totally liked if it's some kind

631
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: of immigration form or something like that. Could have bribed

632
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: it or it could be real. It's hard to tell,

633
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: especially in this time. Yeah, and you could really write

634
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: whatever you wanted. Yeah yeah. Next step in his in

635
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: Bota's journalistic journey, he bribed the mailman who delivered Towards

636
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 1: Fans mail and I love it. That's just the way

637
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: it goes down there, and I guess so pretty much

638
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: all around the world actually. But when he opened some

639
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: of those uh, some of those envelopes, he found out

640
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: the tours Fan received royalties payables you've done other than

641
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: ben Yeah, from a man named Joseph Wider in Zurich,

642
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: which is the guy that was publisher. But to ask

643
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: Towards Fan if he be traven and how crows were

644
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: all the same in person, of course, Tourist Fan denied it,

645
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 1: and supposedly emphatically in fact, even kind of angrily. But

646
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: if you're trying to hide that would be and caught

647
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: off guard. I could see that being a normal reaction. Yes, again,

648
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: this is not like those journalists before. I said that.

649
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: Tourist Spend finally admitted indirectly to being the writer, though

650
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 1: he doesn't say exactly how he admitted indirectly. Yeah, yeah, hinky.

651
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: So Spoda published an article about all that's a nice

652
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 1: long article, I understand. I haven't read it in the

653
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 1: newspaper Maniana in August, and Tourists Fand published an angry

654
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: denial in the newspaper boy A week later tomorrow and

655
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: today you love I love it. Yeah, and then and then,

656
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: of course, not long after that tourist fan disappeared. So

657
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: I mean, all these disappearing people, how Crows, we actually

658
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: have like five mysteries and one mystery, right right, all

659
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: these disappearances. Okay, but one mysterious disappearance was sold because

660
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 1: Haw Crows who disappeared while he reappeared in Acapulco. Yeah,

661
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: and he wrote a few screen adaptations of B. Traven's books,

662
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: and of course also acted as his representative. He had

663
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: a secretary named Rosa Elena Louhan and eventually married her

664
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty seven, and towards Vaughan was also in

665
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 1: Acapulco earlier than that. I'm just seeing that going, oh wait,

666
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: maybe he just liked Acapulco and he took off for

667
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: a while and came back. Or maybe if it's the

668
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: same person, if we're gonna if we're gonna stitch this

669
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 1: altogether as the same person, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know.

670
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: Between his marriage and nineteen fifty seven and his death

671
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty nine, Haw Crows, I guess they were

672
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 1: happily married. Alcroz stayed hal Crows and until he died. Then,

673
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: on the day of his death, his wife, Rosa Alien

674
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: and Luhan of course, as you know, held a press

675
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: conference and announced her Husban hal Crow's real name was

676
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: Travan towards Fan Crows and that he had been born

677
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: in Chicago in May eighteen to a Burton towards Fan

678
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 1: and Dorothy Crow's. Okay. She also said that he had

679
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: used the pseudonyms be Traven and Haw Crow's during his life,

680
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:20,800
Speaker 1: and then some months later she con learned that be

681
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: Traven had a deed been Rehet Marut earlier in his life.

682
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 1: So it's a mystery solved. Uh wait wait, okay, So

683
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: he was born in May of eighteen, according to this,

684
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 1: in Chicago, and then I know, um, sorry, he's never

685
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: left um, and then he became Rehet Marut like immediately

686
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: after that and went to he would have somehow got

687
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 1: himself into Germany and become Reet Maud. Okay, but he

688
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 1: was never he was never auto fi age right, Yeah,

689
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: I don't think so now, but and I think my

690
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: understanding of how the whole thing worked is he was

691
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: born in Chicago. His parents were actually I think from Germany,

692
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,439
Speaker 1: and they moved back to Germany, and so they lived

693
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 1: maybe in the first ten years of his life in

694
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: America something like that, and then moved to Germany. I

695
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: would explain a lot of stuff. I would explain lots yeah, Okay,

696
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: well if that's right, if that's correct, yeah, and that interpretation, okay,

697
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: I'm on board. And then he then he eventually I

698
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 1: gets himself, got himself a stage name, and then you know,

699
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: becomes a revolutionary and then has to leave Europe and

700
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: goes to Mexico. Then where by the way, you know,

701
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: he's wanted. Apparently he would be an American citizen, not

702
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: a German citizen. So I don't know, if you're an

703
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 1: American living in Germany, if you can, if you if

704
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: you can commit treason, maybe that's why he didn't end

705
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: up it would be yeah, yeah, maybe that's why he

706
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 1: faked being born in America because you know, or maybe

707
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: that's why he faked being what is what's his name, otto,

708
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: Maximilian Lionaire, the Greek yogurt guy. Okay, what Now, there's

709
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 1: there's one that you you haven't included here that I

710
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: I found odd, but I wanted to bring up, which

711
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:18,280
Speaker 1: was I'm not saying who Betraven was from the outset

712
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,399
Speaker 1: accept that the theory that I saw said that he

713
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: was from Germany originally and was in Mexico, and he

714
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: met an American who wrote these stories and somehow bought

715
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 1: or stole them off of that individual and then rewrote

716
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: them into German, which is why there are americanisms in

717
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: the German version, and then went back and said, oh wait,

718
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: now I need to make this match my manuscript. Later,

719
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: so when converted that English back or rewrote the English

720
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: version in his own English version, that's where all the

721
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: germanisms came from. Now, I again, this is one that

722
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: I've seen profit on the internet a number of times,

723
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 1: and I don't buy. But it's out there, and I

724
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: think that we should at least acknowledge. I suppose we

725
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 1: should have. I didn't include that one because it just

726
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: seems so even less supportable than almost all the others

727
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 1: out there. I think it's more supportable than Jack London. Yeah,

728
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 1: but it just seems like it just seemed to me

729
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 1: like it was basically speculation more than anything else, and

730
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: completely I totally agree with that. Yeah. So yeah, I

731
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: don't know. So the mystery is solved or is it

732
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: not at all, because yeah, she could have been lying

733
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: to her the whole time, or maybe that if you

734
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 1: can't if you can can't lie to anybody at your wife. Yeah,

735
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 1: but you can lie to your wife and people do

736
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,879
Speaker 1: it all the time. So I can see this guy

737
00:43:55,960 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: being like, yeah, we're dating. I'm just going to make

738
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: myself sound mysterious. So she's really interested in me. I

739
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 1: can see this. I can see this play out in

740
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: a thousand So it's really well for your upcoming now

741
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: the show. She does think that I am an international

742
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 1: millionaire and I don't come to record a podcast. I

743
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: am dealing with my trust Funday, Well, we'll make sure

744
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: support that. We'll keep your secret. We'll keep it. Yeah.

745
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 1: And also he might have told her the whole truth too,

746
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: and I bet, but also expressed his wishes to for

747
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 1: her to continue spreading the fog of BSY also on

748
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 1: his behalf after his death. Yeah. And she, by the way,

749
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,879
Speaker 1: she lived until two thousand nine. I believe she lived

750
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: a good long. She was a lot younger. I was

751
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: gonna say she must have been a young woman when

752
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:51,879
Speaker 1: he married her. Yeah, she was quite a bit younger

753
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 1: than him. Yeah, Yeah, it had to be Yeah, so

754
00:44:56,040 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: mry so uh okay, keep saying you keep saying, oh,

755
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: I don't really don't know that, you know, for any

756
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: of the big mystery here is white people care so much.

757
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 1: I'm going through this. I was really struck by the

758
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: fact that so many people devoted like years of their

759
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 1: lives to researching and tracking down and traveling to various

760
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: places and checking records and interviewing people and just to

761
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: try to figure out who he was. People get stuck

762
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 1: on weird mysteries. We've experienced it, the US three. We

763
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: get stuck on some weird stuff sometimes. How many times

764
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 1: have any of us brought up the same mystery to

765
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 1: the others? It happens, oh yeah, and then you know,

766
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: one of us will be like, oh, we should do

767
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 1: this mystery, and you guys will always be like, no, Devon,

768
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:45,399
Speaker 1: that's dumb, Joe, We've already done that one. We don't

769
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 1: need to follow up up. I don't care what records

770
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 1: you requested. Yeah, all right, So I need to go

771
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,399
Speaker 1: to the bathroom, So I'm gonna go. I gotta get

772
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: some of the ministralia out of the way here so

773
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: I can shut off the mixer and go to the bathroom. Okay.

774
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 1: Find us on our website, which is Thinking Sideways podcast

775
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: dot com. You can leave comments. We have links to

776
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,919
Speaker 1: various articles and stuff. They're related to the subject matter.

777
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: And of course you can download the episodes directly from there,

778
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: or you can find the episodes on iTunes. iTunes. On iTunes,

779
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 1: you can subscribe, of course you're gonna want to do that.

780
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: You're gonna want to leave a comment and review. Please

781
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 1: leave a review and the comment. We like those. You

782
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: can stream us on Stitcher or anywhere else for that matter.

783
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 1: I don't know how many streaming services we're on most

784
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 1: of them at this point. Yeah, you can. Also you

785
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: can find us on Facebook. Please find us, friend us,

786
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: like us, follow us whatever. Trademark trademark trademark. Yeah, and

787
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: we're on the Twitter. We are on the Twitter. Yes, yes, yes,

788
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: it's true. We have Our name is a little different,

789
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: Thinking sideways, not Thinking Sideways. Just we dropped the G

790
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: because we had to write no because it was cool. Yeah,

791
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: it was more. And of course there is email. Send

792
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 1: us an email at Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. Well,

793
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 1: and don't forget now, of course we've got we've got

794
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: the shirts and stuff. Like that available on Zazzle. There's

795
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 1: a link directly on the right hand side of our

796
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 1: website that people can just click on and that'll take

797
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: them straight to it. So we haven't done this a

798
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 1: lot recently. We've been kind of moving away from it.

799
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: But I do want to just briefly mention a pretty

800
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: cool piece of listener mail we got a couple of

801
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: weeks ago. No, it's just been a week. Well by

802
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 1: the time this comes out. Yeah, anyways, it from Bowie Poag.

803
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 1: Do you guys know who that is? Of course I

804
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,240
Speaker 1: do you know who that is? Yeah, listeners may remember

805
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: this is the Reddit user who claims that he knows

806
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 1: who's responsible for the Max Headroom Max Headroom broadcast intrusions.

807
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,439
Speaker 1: And he I'm not going to actually read like verbate

808
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 1: him anything that he said, but mostly, well, actually that's

809
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: not true. Well let's see. Well, what I like is

810
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 1: that we didn't reach out about No, he reached out. Yeah,

811
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 1: he tracked us down and he said, just listen to

812
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 1: your podcast, and I wanted to drop you line that says,

813
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: I think you did an excellent job covering it, and

814
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 1: I was glad that you appreciate approached the theories the

815
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: way you did with good skepticism and skeptical skepticism and

816
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 1: critical thinking that and thank you for not ripping on

817
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 1: me for refusing to disclose any names. And then he

818
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 1: kind of goes on we had a pretty good conversation

819
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: about it, but I just thought it was kind of

820
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 1: cool he actually reached out to us, and thanks, Bowie.

821
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: I don't know if you actually are listening to all

822
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,320
Speaker 1: of it or you just like track down Max Headroom

823
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: related stuff or whatever, but I was glad. I was

824
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: glad to here that he appreciated us, because I think,

825
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's no way of proving anything, and uh,

826
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,280
Speaker 1: it's better to just protect people. Well, I yeah, again,

827
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: I wanted this is one we've hung onto for a

828
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 1: couple of weeks too that I wanted to follow up with.

829
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: This is a bit of listener mail and a correction,

830
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 1: kind of my correction because I was wrong. We Uh,

831
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 1: we got an email from Tony Ortega over at the

832
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 1: Raw Story, who has done a lot of reporting on

833
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: scientology and if anybody remembers or has recently listened to

834
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:42,399
Speaker 1: the Miss Michelle Miss Cabbage episode, we had said we

835
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 1: weren't sure about a fact and so we guessed at it,

836
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: and Tony was kind of enough to reach out and

837
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 1: correct us on it, which is we had questioned if

838
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: anybody has listened to it sea Org. We couldn't remember

839
00:49:56,120 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 1: if sexual relations were allowed for any reason. Turn Out

840
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 1: we had said we thought they probably were. No, they're

841
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 1: not at all. I think we said that they were

842
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,240
Speaker 1: allowed for propreational appropriate that's what it was, propreationally. Turns

843
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 1: out no, no, no, no whatsoever. So I was I

844
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,800
Speaker 1: really appreciated Tony taking the time to reach out to this.

845
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: And there was some again with the same as the

846
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 1: email from Bowie, there was some other stuff there, but

847
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:25,319
Speaker 1: it was really nice to have somebody who had done

848
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 1: a bunch of research and reporting to follow up with us.

849
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: And if we ever do anything on scientology again, I

850
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 1: know we're going to reach out. Yeah. Absolutely. I don't

851
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 1: think we're going to be doing anything more about science.

852
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll see, we'll see what comes up. But yeah, yeah,

853
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: so yeah, good listener mails, months, listener mails sending us emails.

854
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: We get lots of emails. Yeah, so don't be offended

855
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: if we don't read your email out out loud, because

856
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 1: we can't really read that many and then we can't

857
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:57,760
Speaker 1: reply to all of me that we just well, no, actually,

858
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 1: we replied to every single email. Though it may take

859
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: us a week to get back to people. I make

860
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: sure that every email, if none of us have grabbed it,

861
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 1: gets responded to, so doesn't fall through the cracks. But

862
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 1: there's so many coming in. There's just no way that

863
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 1: we could. There's only three of us. Um yeah, so

864
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 1: for now, at least we'll get back to you. It

865
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 1: might it might be finally reached the point where we're

866
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 1: gonna have to hire a bot to reply to our email.

867
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:34,839
Speaker 1: No never, I only swear that we will never never

868
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 1: going to use a bot. Nope, nope. So thanks Joe.

869
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,399
Speaker 1: That's everything. Huh. Jo is pretty much everything. We could

870
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 1: replace him with a bot. Feel free. I've got better

871
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 1: use for my time. Oh no, don't pay too much

872
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 1: money on that note, shall we? I think we shall

873
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 1: yea to lou everybody, see you next week, by bye bye.

874
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:03,280
Speaker 1: And by the way, you're gonna love next week's episode.

875
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:04,359
Speaker 1: We're going to tackle the big