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Speaker 1: Quality bars with Joseph's gotten more. If I say eleven

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Speaker 1: inches give or take zero point eight seven five or

3
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Speaker 1: if I say seven inches, which is actually eighteen centimeters,

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Speaker 1: or if I say three hundred and eleven grams, which

5
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Speaker 1: actually equals eleven point two ounces. Those numbers are very random.

6
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Speaker 1: They don't necessarily mean much. But if I were to

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Speaker 1: tell you that eleven specifically eleven point eight seven five

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Speaker 1: inches is the overall length of a knife with a

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Speaker 1: blade length of seven inches or eighteen centimeters, or if

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Speaker 1: I tell you that the weight is eleven point two ounces.

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Speaker 1: If I tell you that and I used to work kbar,

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Speaker 1: what comes to mind? I can tell you a single

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Speaker 1: itch weapon that was used to destroy four lives. I'm

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks Brother Dave. We've

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Speaker 1: got information. We've got information that has come to us

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Speaker 1: now since the unseiling of these court documents in the

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Speaker 1: Idaho four case.

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Speaker 2: Was there anything in what we saw? Now? They being

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Speaker 2: the police, the Moscow Police Department, has released three hundred

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Speaker 2: pages of files from the case. You know, there was

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Speaker 2: the gag order and so a lot of things were

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Speaker 2: used to getting We didn't have leading up to the

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Speaker 2: case hitting trial, and then after Coberger pled guilty, we

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Speaker 2: got some information, and then after sentencing, within hours they

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Speaker 2: had released three hundred pages that includes now a narrative

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Speaker 2: version of what took place from Dylan Mortensen, what she

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Speaker 2: heard one of the surviving roommates, and based on what

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Speaker 2: she told police officers, Joe were able to put together

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Speaker 2: a timeline of inside the house that night, when things happened,

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Speaker 2: and to a degree, how they happened and in what

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Speaker 2: order they seem to happen. We still don't know who

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Speaker 2: was the target, although I believe Bill Thompson, the prosecutor,

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Speaker 2: suggested that it was either Matty Mogan or Kaylee Gonzavez

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Speaker 2: as the target. Do you concur with that based.

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Speaker 1: On yeah, I would hate say. And here here's why.

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Speaker 1: Just on the surface, I think, what kind of perpetrator

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Speaker 1: would go to the most distal area of the house

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Speaker 1: where there is no potential way to escape other than

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Speaker 1: diving out of a third story window or coming back

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Speaker 1: down the staircase. It's a high risk proposition, I think.

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Speaker 1: So I think that you have to factor that into

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Speaker 1: the thought process relative to the perpetrator's destination, you know,

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Speaker 1: because it's a terminal destination in more ways than one, obviously,

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Speaker 1: but it is the terminus of where you can egress too,

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Speaker 1: you know that. That's kind of my thought about it.

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Speaker 1: And I believe that the perpetrator, the now convicted for

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Speaker 1: time five time over felonious perpetrator. Uh, that's what he

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Speaker 1: had on his mind. I think that, uh, that he

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Speaker 1: had observed, probably on multiple multiple occasions, which I have

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Speaker 1: put that forth now for a couple of years, he

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Speaker 1: had a point of observation, a hide if you will,

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Speaker 1: where everything played out fantastically in his mind, uh, in

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Speaker 1: the dark, like the the slippery, slithering reptile that he

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Speaker 1: has proven to be, and he could just sit there

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Speaker 1: and watch. The only thing he was missing was the

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Speaker 1: hot sun and a rock because you know he's exothermic, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, just sitting there watching by this time with

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Speaker 1: those those hollow, lifeless eyes, in the words of Captain

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Speaker 1: Quint from Jaws, like doll's eyes, you think that it's

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Speaker 1: not living until it bite in their roll over white.

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Speaker 1: I think that that's the best descriptor. So, yeah, I've

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Speaker 1: compared him now to reptile and to a great white chart. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: When Kayley Gonzava's mom and dad have been the most

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Speaker 2: vocal of all the parents, and now having seen them

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Speaker 2: and what we now are getting ready to talk about

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Speaker 2: some of the information that we have found out. I

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Speaker 2: never thought much of the picture of the selfie that

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Speaker 2: Cobert took lefter nine am the morning after this took place,

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Speaker 2: and it was Steve Gonzavez that said that was his marker.

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Speaker 2: You know that was his because he had gone back

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Speaker 2: over and we know that he did the murders between

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Speaker 2: four and four twenty in the morning. It had gotten

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Speaker 2: all the way back to his apartment, and then he

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Speaker 2: came back buy around nine o'clock and didn't see any cops,

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Speaker 2: didn't see anything going on out there, and so he

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Speaker 2: goes back and takes that selfie like a victory picture.

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Speaker 2: He'd gotten away with it. He thought he had gotten

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Speaker 2: away with it at that point, and I thought, I'm

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Speaker 2: thankful that we've had the chance. I'm thankful the families

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Speaker 2: did show up and speak at sentencing. The impact statement

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Speaker 2: was very impactful. I do think that if Kayleie Benzave's

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Speaker 2: older sister, Olivia, Yes, if she wants to run for office,

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Speaker 2: I volunteer to be here campaign manager. I believe, oh

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Speaker 2: my gosh, they actually her as much as anyone else.

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Speaker 2: But you know, so many times, Joe, when we are

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Speaker 2: going to speak, whether it's in front of a group

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Speaker 2: of business people or at church or a civic whatever

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Speaker 2: it is, we rehearse how we're going to do it,

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Speaker 2: and it never comes out that way. Sometimes when we

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Speaker 2: have an argument with a spouse or a boss, we'll

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Speaker 2: go through all the things we're going to say, and

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Speaker 2: we get it in our mind of what we're going

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Speaker 2: to say and how we want to say it. But

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Speaker 2: then usually it's with a boss, when we get in

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Speaker 2: front of them, none of it comes out that way

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Speaker 2: and they end up getting what they want anyway. In

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Speaker 2: this particular case, Olivia Gonzalvez kicked it through the upraids.

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Speaker 2: She says, you what most of us were feeling.

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Speaker 1: And I have to tell you, I love the fact

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Speaker 1: that you mentioned interacting with other people, and you know,

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Speaker 1: like you have a planned like at the end of

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Speaker 1: maybe a commentary, that you're going to offer them something,

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Speaker 1: there's a question and answer period. She knew that that

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Speaker 1: was not going to happen. It's a different process what

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Speaker 1: she went through. And how many, how many times, Dave,

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Speaker 1: And I'm speaking to myself here too, because I know

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Speaker 1: that if you've ever been in an argument, and I

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Speaker 1: would bet dollars to donuts set our friends out there

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Speaker 1: have experienced the same thing. How many times over the

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Speaker 1: course of our lives have we wished that following maybe

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Speaker 1: an argument, a blow up, whatever it is, an hour later,

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Speaker 1: you think, God, I wish i'd said this. She lift

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Speaker 1: it all on the table. Oh yeah, I think that

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Speaker 1: there was within good taste. I think that now it

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Speaker 1: had just been her and him and I'm projecting here

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Speaker 1: in a room together, it would have been a bit

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Speaker 1: more salty, you know, with him strapped to a chair

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Speaker 1: somewhere in her talking to him. But in that and

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Speaker 1: it's a for those that have never been to court,

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Speaker 1: this is the other added bit to this that's so

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Speaker 1: fascinating to me. The first time, obviously I testified in court,

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Speaker 1: I'd never been to a foreign country. Never. I didn't

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Speaker 1: travel abroad until I was older. For if you want

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Speaker 1: to come close to that and go to court, if

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Speaker 1: you've never been to an alien landscape or foreign landscape,

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Speaker 1: go to court. The environment is different, the language is different,

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Speaker 1: the way you present yourself is different. It all seems odd.

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Speaker 1: That's the best way I can describe it. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know what her experience has been in the past

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Speaker 1: of walking into a court room. I have no idea

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Speaker 1: if this was her first time. Oh my lord, she

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Speaker 1: walked into this alien, odd world where there's a certain

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Speaker 1: level of decorum, where you have to obey the rules.

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Speaker 1: Everything that comes out of your mouth is you know,

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Speaker 1: has to be within certain parameters. And boy, she has

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Speaker 1: laid it all on the table. And it wasn't like

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Speaker 1: disorganized verbal vomit.

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Speaker 2: It was ordered.

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Speaker 1: It was sharply pinned. It was right to the point, Dave,

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Speaker 1: I'm the point.

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Speaker 2: I've actually been to court where I had to speak.

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Speaker 2: The first time I realized I learned. I didn't know this.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know that that people who took an oath,

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Speaker 2: you know, to tell the truth lied in court. I

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Speaker 2: didn't know that until my first sign in court and

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Speaker 2: the police officer lied, and I said, that crushed me.

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Speaker 2: It changed everything about how I speak in public that one.

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Speaker 2: And I'm glad it happened when it did because I

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Speaker 2: learned a valuable lesson. I'm so proud of the way

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Speaker 2: she handled it, because it was better than I would

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Speaker 2: have done, and she said everything that most that a

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Speaker 2: lot of us were feeling. I felt like she was

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Speaker 2: speaking not just for her sister, but for everybody who

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Speaker 2: has Like you and I have talked about how close

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Speaker 2: we feel to this case because we have children in

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Speaker 2: that frame, you know, and you you're in that you're

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Speaker 2: on campus with these kids every day. They could have

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Speaker 2: been your students and as well as he could have

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Speaker 2: been your student.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. And I was having this

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Speaker 1: discussion the other day, and I have to say this

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Speaker 1: on a side before we go to other topics, but

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Speaker 1: did you know that's that that is actually an indwelling

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Speaker 1: fear that some of us in my field have. It's

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Speaker 1: one of those things that we don't talk about it

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Speaker 1: obviously in front of students. Here I am talking about

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Speaker 1: it in front of the entire world now, But it's

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Speaker 1: one of those things that if you're having a cup

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Speaker 1: of coffee with one of your colleagues and you're in

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Speaker 1: some kind of criminal justice program, forensics program, or even

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Speaker 1: if you're at the police academy. That topic has consistently

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Speaker 1: come up through my professional life, whether it was working

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Speaker 1: in the field and instructing people that were coming into

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Speaker 1: my field, or whether it was in an academic setting.

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Speaker 1: I wonder who's in the audience. I wonder who's in

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Speaker 1: the audience, who's out there that's there to glean information

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Speaker 1: and that they're going to take it away. The professors

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Speaker 1: at the Sails, there's no way they could have predicted,

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Speaker 1: no way, you know, you know, they for all of

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Speaker 1: their you know, eccentricities and everything else that comes along

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Speaker 1: with academia. They're in that particular field. They're not training

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Speaker 1: these malevolent and he is malevolent, Okay, I'll put it

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Speaker 1: to you that way. They're not training malevolent beings in

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Speaker 1: this context to go out and beat the system or

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Speaker 1: do whatever it is that they're doing. This is a

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Speaker 1: uh a, just this horrible entity that kind of entered

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Speaker 1: into their environment up there. And then when he left,

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Speaker 1: he left, and.

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Speaker 2: Hell followed after.

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Speaker 1: David. I got to tell you, I'm glad that you

191
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Speaker 1: brought up Olivia. And the reason is it is not

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Speaker 1: just what she said she was being driven by. There

193
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Speaker 1: was a spark within her, and that spark I think

194
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Speaker 1: to a great degree that the families have always known

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Speaker 1: a bit more information than we've been privy to as well.

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Speaker 1: They should. They haven't known everything, Okay, understand that, but

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Speaker 1: let's face it, families went to funeral homes. Okay, let's

198
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Speaker 1: just put that out on the table now. Whether or

199
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Speaker 1: not they actually saw remains at funeral homes or if

200
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Speaker 1: it was something that was passed through the family. That

201
00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,960
Speaker 1: kind of thing gets into the circulatory system of a family,

202
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Speaker 1: you know, because I've been parts of cases where we

203
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Speaker 1: didn't tell the family everything, but then they go to

204
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Speaker 1: the funeral home and they are told by the mortuary

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Speaker 1: attendant and by the funeral directors. Funeral directors don't work

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Speaker 1: for the state or for any kind of agency. They

207
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Speaker 1: work for the family. And the family asked them a question,

208
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Speaker 1: they're going to say, well, yeah, this is the reality

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Speaker 1: of what you're dealing with here. They knew, and Dave,

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Speaker 1: I submit to you that it's because of that knowledge.

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Speaker 1: And obviously the most glaring thing is she's missing her sister,

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Speaker 1: She's absent and we'll never return. That's what that the

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Speaker 1: genesis of what you saw the other day with her

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Speaker 1: in her impact statement, that's what that was driven by Dave.

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Speaker 2: And she did a great job. She she was articulate,

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Speaker 2: maintained herself, and I'm thankful that she had the time,

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Speaker 2: and I'm thankful that Judge let her speak. They have

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Speaker 2: a right to, you know. I want us to be

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Speaker 2: able to walk away from this and never talk about

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Speaker 2: the guy again. Not because well, you're about to hear friends,

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Speaker 2: even if you've heard it covered. I want to prepare you.

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Speaker 2: There were certain aspects of what I know now that

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Speaker 2: I didn't know when I was listening to Olivia Gonzavez

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Speaker 2: give her impact statement, Things that I found out later

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Speaker 2: that day, that night, in the next day about the

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Speaker 2: damage one person did to a community, a country, parents, grandparents,

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Speaker 2: in particular, the families of Madison Mogan, Kaylee Gonzavez, Xana Cronodle,

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Speaker 2: and Ethan Chapin. When he went into that house. We

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Speaker 2: now know that Brian Coberger entered the home through the

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Speaker 2: sliding glass door near the kitchen. He went straight up

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Speaker 2: the stairs. You alluded to this a minute ago. He

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Speaker 2: went straight up the stairs to the third floor. Now

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Speaker 2: the kitchen is on this second floor. Yep. He went

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Speaker 2: up the flight of stairs to the top floor, where

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Speaker 2: there is no exit except going up and down the

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Speaker 2: same flight of stairs. He knew where he was going

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Speaker 2: because there were people on the second floor, and if

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Speaker 2: he were to just go in there to riak havoc

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Speaker 2: on everybody, he would have started at the first available

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Speaker 2: door and gone from there. But Joe, he didn't do that.

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Speaker 2: He went up the stairs to Madison Mogan's room.

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Speaker 1: Yeah he did. And I think that you know, you

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Speaker 1: you would ask, you would ask a question at some

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Speaker 1: point in tom You know Maddie, Maddie was there obviously

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Speaker 1: and was still at school. Kayley had already moved out.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, she was starting her job and had a

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Speaker 2: new and that's why she was there. She came back

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Speaker 2: to show Maddie her new car.

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Speaker 1: I think the most privative thing that you asked in

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Speaker 1: our conversation was did he know that she was there?

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Speaker 1: Did he expect to go up there and find one

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Speaker 1: and instead there were two? That's that's the question that

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Speaker 1: even even those detectives, and they gave these statements, even

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Speaker 1: those detectives could not firmly answer, you know, they couldn't

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Speaker 1: hold forth and say yeah, definitively that that this was

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Speaker 1: in fact the target. They kind of hedged their bets

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Speaker 1: and said that either it could have been either Maddie

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Speaker 1: or Kaylee, and that's I think that for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people out there that have been following this horrible

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Speaker 1: set of circumstances, all this all this quadruple homicide, that's

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Speaker 1: the big question. You know. They want to know why,

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Speaker 1: but they want to know who. I think who was it?

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Speaker 1: But you know, in our efforts, and I think that

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Speaker 1: you and I have done a pretty damn good job

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Speaker 1: here of honoring the victims. Because I'm going to tell you,

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Speaker 1: you and I are going to fight if we mentioned

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Speaker 1: if either one of us mentioned his name, because I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying it again.

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Speaker 2: I know I accidentally did a minute ago, and I thought,

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Speaker 2: I can't believe I did that. Man.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I am just I'm so sick to my

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Speaker 1: back teeth of him. And I do want to talk

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Speaker 1: about them. And I can't sit here and espouse what

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Speaker 1: their lives were like, or their childhood was like, or

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Speaker 1: anything like that. I'm forensic scientists, and so I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about the havoc that was That was, you know,

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Speaker 1: the havoc that he left behind the evidence of it.

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Speaker 1: That's the interesting thing, isn't it. We And in crumsing

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Speaker 1: and people talk about evil all the time. They talk

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Speaker 1: about it in these kind of nebulous terms, right, I

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Speaker 1: would submit to you that people such as myself, other

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Speaker 1: people that work in my field, we actually see the

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Speaker 1: remnant of evil that grim harvest, if you will, those

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Speaker 1: things that are left behind, a lot of people think

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Speaker 1: they know evil until they walk into something like this,

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Speaker 1: and most people can't. I think that people that want

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Speaker 1: to beat their chest over how evil the world is

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Speaker 1: and how evil people are and evil this and evil,

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Speaker 1: that they don't really understand depth and breadth until they

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Speaker 1: walk into I guarantee you those police officers understand it,

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Speaker 1: and they will for the rest of their lives. And

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Speaker 1: this is going to be talked about. I mean there

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Speaker 1: will be these police officers will go to conferences, they

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Speaker 1: will talk about what it was like to work this

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Speaker 1: case and how all they worked this case. But for

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Speaker 1: the Tom Bean, let's let's kind of go go down

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Speaker 1: the road here, Dave, what what what say you about this?

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Speaker 1: What do you think?

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Speaker 2: My biggest concern was not concerned. My biggest question was

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Speaker 2: again back to that targeted person, because, according to Prosecutor

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Speaker 2: Bill Thompson, they the prosecutors believed that it was either

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Speaker 2: Matti Mgan or Kalligan's office were the target. Now, Kaylee

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Speaker 2: was not there on campus anymore. She had already moved out,

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Speaker 2: cleared out her room. She was only there to visit

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Speaker 2: her lifelong body Matty Mogan, who was still in school,

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Speaker 2: and she was showing her car and they went out,

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Speaker 2: you know that, because Mattie was getting ready to go

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Speaker 2: home for Thanksgiving. If you remember, we had that break

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Speaker 2: coming up. This was before the Thanksgiving break. And anyway,

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Speaker 2: when Coberger comes up the stairs, we only know that

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Speaker 2: he went to the third floor first, and that Madison

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Speaker 2: Mogan was probably attacked based on To be honest with you,

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Speaker 2: we know more from Steve Gonzavas than we know from

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Speaker 2: a lot of the stuff that was filed by police.

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Speaker 2: He was able to put some things together about the attack,

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Speaker 2: the actual physical attack that took place. Now, being familiar

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Speaker 2: with college level college and college age people, we know

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Speaker 2: that Kaylee and Maddy had gone out that evening, got

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Speaker 2: home around two o'clock. You know, they stopped at the

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Speaker 2: food truck before then, and so by four o'clock in

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Speaker 2: the morning, they were pretty crashed out. You know, they

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Speaker 2: were crashing out best friends in the same bed because

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Speaker 2: again Maddy didn't live there. I mean, Kaylee had already

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Speaker 2: moved out, so they're both in Matty's bed. When Coberger

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Speaker 2: comes up the stairs. We know that Dylan Mortenson, Bethany Funk,

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Speaker 2: Dana Kernodle are awake. We know they're all awake because

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Speaker 2: we know Xana Cronodle had just gotten her foo ude

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Speaker 2: from Jack in the box delivered. Ethan was probably crashed out.

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Speaker 2: So Coberg, your cut b K, goes up the stairs.

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Speaker 2: He attacks Madison Mgen in her bed based on the

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Speaker 2: injuries that Madison Mgen has. Joe, tell me what took place?

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Speaker 1: Well, first off, do you remember I opened the show

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Speaker 1: talking about the dimensions of the k bar. We have

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Speaker 1: to understand this is a combat knife and it's by

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Speaker 1: knife standards compared to modern knives. It's very heavy. So

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Speaker 1: if you have enough strength to wiel this thing, just

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Speaker 1: the transfer of energy from your arm to that knife,

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Speaker 1: or from your hand to that knife, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be devastating. And I can tell you this just based

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Speaker 1: upon what my experience with the k bar, because Kimmy

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Speaker 1: bought me one when all of this kicked off, she said,

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Speaker 1: you need this, you need it for you know, demonstrative purposes.

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Speaker 1: You know when you're on TV and all these things.

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Speaker 1: I'm thankful she did because it really gave me a

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Speaker 1: sense holding this thing and dave that blade right out

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Speaker 1: of the box. And still to this day I have

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Speaker 1: not I have not stoned displayed at all. It came

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Speaker 1: out of the box razor sharp, and I mean literally,

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Speaker 1: I remember taking this knife, and I'm not the most

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Speaker 1: hairsuit person on the planet, but I took it and

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Speaker 1: drugged the leading edge of the blade across where the

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Speaker 1: base of my hand attaches to my wrist, and it

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Speaker 1: shaved the hair right off of my wrist. And so

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Speaker 1: with that said, this thing was ready to go right

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Speaker 1: out of the box. When you look at what the

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Speaker 1: detectives are now telling us about about Maddie's wounds, they're very,

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Speaker 1: very distinctive. She's got defensive wounds on her forearms and hands.

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Speaker 1: And so the first indicator here, the first bit of

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Speaker 1: significant information I'd like to pass on to everybody, is

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Speaker 1: that when an individual is being attacked and they go

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Speaker 1: to what's referred to in NiFe or sword play to parry,

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Speaker 1: to parry an aggressor, which means to defend or to

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Speaker 1: to you know, try to block, She's got insults to

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Speaker 1: both her forearms and to her hands, which gives us

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Speaker 1: an idea that she was not asleep obviously, and it

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Speaker 1: wasn't just a matter of her grabbing the knife, Dave.

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Speaker 1: It was a matter of her actually taking almost making

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Speaker 1: a blocking maneuver where she's throwing her arm up like this,

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Speaker 1: and that's that's how you're getting this now. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if she was trying to strike at him in

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Speaker 1: raising her arm. You know, if you if you think

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Speaker 1: about like your hand, you're in a boxer's pose. I

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Speaker 1: want everybody to go into a boxer's pose, your fists

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Speaker 1: or clenched, and if you take your right hand, if

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Speaker 1: you're right handed or left handed, take your left hand,

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Speaker 1: and you do what boxers would call a right cross,

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Speaker 1: where you're going at this at the side of someone's

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Speaker 1: jaw and crossing in front of their face. That would

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Speaker 1: be like a perry to a knife move. So if

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Speaker 1: that knife is impacting on her arm, she's not asleep.

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Speaker 1: She doesn't she's not in a resting position where her

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Speaker 1: arms are at her side. I don't know how you

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Speaker 1: sleep day, but I'm a side sleeper. That's the way

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Speaker 1: I sleep. On my side I'm not going to have

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Speaker 1: immediate an immediate re I will have a reaction after

386
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Speaker 1: that pain center fire, but I'm going to come. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to suddenly animate at that point in time, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to try to fend off the person that's

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Speaker 1: doing this great harm to me.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And there is evidence that at least she tried to

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Speaker 1: fend her attacker off, but of course it was it

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00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: was for naught. Now, just so that we understand she

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Speaker 1: she would have had some level of an awareness that

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Speaker 1: this was happening to her. Now, let's just suppose that

396
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: Maddie was the first one attacked. That doesn't necessarily mean

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Speaker 1: that Kayley is going to wake up immediately, because I

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Speaker 1: don't you know, we've both had you know, young adult

399
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: teenagers in our in our houses. You can rattle them

400
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: and shake them all you want to, but just because

401
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 1: you do it first time doesn't mean they're going to

402
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 1: wake up. So, supposing that Maddie was the first that

403
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: was attacked, those paint centers are firing, and she's trying

404
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 1: to fend him off. She doesn't succeed at that at

405
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:16,479
Speaker 1: that effort, because he was able to stab her. I

406
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: don't think these were in sized wounds because they're too deep.

407
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: What the police do relate is that she sustained lacerations

408
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: to her liver and to her and to her left lung.

409
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: Now understand me, because it sounds like I'm talking on

410
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: both sides of my mouth. Because we actually did a

411
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,959
Speaker 1: special addition on body bags about sharp force injuries, and

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00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: I talked about the delineation between sharp force and blunt

413
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Speaker 1: force injuries. And we're going to get into some blunt

414
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: force stuff here in a moment. But understand that when

415
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: when a forensic with theologist actually begins to talk about

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00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: the liver in particular, there's a couple of odd terms

417
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: they'll use for for the liver particularly, they'll use the

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00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: term fracture and they'll use the term laceration even though

419
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 1: it is a stab wound. And that's why it sounds like,

420
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: you know, you're saying two things that can't don't seem

421
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: to marry up.

422
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Speaker 2: We did this, you go, and we did the show

423
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 2: before about you know, the chart force trauma. I didn't know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I thought laceration to me, that's a slice

425
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: wound that opens up the skin. And because that's just

426
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Speaker 2: what it sounds like.

427
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: Well, the last I know, but that comes from most

428
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: of the time, lacerations are associated with blunt force trauma,

429
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: like you get a lacerated liver also if you're in

430
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: a car accident. Okay, that's not what they're saying. They're

431
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: saying that she was stabbed and she stabbed into her liver,

432
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: and they're referring to this liver injury. Now we're not

433
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: talking about the exterior of her body. And if you'll

434
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: place your right hand at the base of the right

435
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: aspect of your rib cage, this is where that injury

436
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: to Mattie was. Your liver sits right underneath that last

437
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: rib on the right side. Okay, it's not beyond the

438
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: realm of possibility the liver would be injured when you've

439
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: got this kind of violent knife attack that's going on.

440
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: But for whatever reason they'd refer to this as a

441
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: laceration to her liver, he will have also whenever we

442
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: actually do get to see the actual autopsy report, if

443
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: that happens, that they'll talk about the track of the wound,

444
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: how deep it actually goes, what little landmarks within liver

445
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: it impacted. Liver is a very dangerous area to insult

446
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: and the reason is is that next to the brain,

447
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: I would say, it is probably the most vascular organ body.

448
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: So if liver gets damaged, you're going to bleed out,

449
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: and you'll bleed out abdominantly. But then there's something interesting

450
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: that happens they talk about, and I'm assuming that based

451
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: upon what we're hearing, that the liver and this injury

452
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: to the lung, and it's the left lung. So you've

453
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: gone from the right lower side of the body or

454
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: the right it would be the right upper quadrant of

455
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: the abdomen. Okay, it's where the liver is. Now you

456
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: move over to the left lung, which is on the

457
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: other side of the mid line, and up the left

458
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: lung has been penetrated with this weapon. It's passed through there.

459
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: So now you've got this horrible injury to the liver,

460
00:30:54,640 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: which depended pound upon how broad the opening is and

461
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: the abdomen she's bleeding out from. Okay, because blood is

462
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: still coursing through her body at this point in time,

463
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

464
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 2: Go ahead, David, Now, how how quickly based on these

465
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 2: because we know she's got the injuries to her forearms

466
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: in her hands, so she's blocking how quickly would she

467
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 2: become incapacitated after getting stabbed in the liver and the lung,

468
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: would she fall out?

469
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: It's not. And again this is an old saying. It's

470
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: not the one thing, it's it's the sum total of

471
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: the whole. And so once you've got this going on

472
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: with the liver, if her left lung is has been

473
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: injured as well, she begins to probably aspirate blood and

474
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: expirate blood. So this, uh, this happens commonly. She'll be

475
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: taken on blood into her airway and she's coughing and

476
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: hacking at this point in time, and it will be

477
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: very frothy blood that would be coming from her nose

478
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: and her mouth. But here's the thing. When you're at

479
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: the scene and there, if I remember correctly and correct

480
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong, I believe that that the uh,

481
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: their faces, both Mattie and Kayley are covered in blood.

482
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 2: Uh.

483
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: It's gonna be hard to like fully appreciate because with

484
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: with with Mattie, she's got a very nasty gash that

485
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: is also extending from her eye to her nose. So

486
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: you're gonna have blood that is profusely kind of running

487
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: down her face. At the same time, if anyone has

488
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: ever sustained a facial injury, like to your forehead or

489
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: your eyebrow. It's already dark in this room, Dave. You're

490
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: already disoriented. If you've had a few to drink at night,

491
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: you're already, you know, kind of out of whack. Anyway.

492
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: Now you're blinded, Okay, And I don't mean blinded like

493
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: you're you're you've been, uh, your eyes have been you know,

494
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: Uh lasparate himself. I'm just talking about you've got blood

495
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: that's flowing in and plus your h you're expirating blood

496
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: out of your nose, in your mouth. That's a tough

497
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: tough position to be in. And she's a little video

498
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: thing man. And to try to fend off uh this reptile,

499
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:47,479
Speaker 1: this gigantic man reptile uh is is very very difficult.

500
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: It's her death would not have been if you're if

501
00:33:54,280 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: you're looking to me as a death investigator, UH, try

502
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: to assuage any kind of fears that you might have

503
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: had that her her her death was quick and painless.

504
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 1: I can't do that here. I can't and be truthful

505
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: with you. This is something that was that was painful.

506
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 1: It's something that she had an awareness of and of

507
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: course we know that that, contrary to earlier reports, that

508
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 1: her death was not in fact while she was asleep.

509
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: The other thing that they were able to to ascertain,

510
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 1: and it's probably a combination of all of the victims,

511
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: they knew that they were dealing with a single edged

512
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 1: weapon and that, as I stated earlier, Dave to sing

513
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: right of the box, they actually believe that this is

514
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: very sharp. Many times with sharp force injuries, you'll get

515
00:34:55,200 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: this kind of you'll get this kind kind of blunted

516
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: when it's pressed down on the skin. If a blade

517
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: is not real sharp, they'll be there'll be a tearing

518
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: that takes place with skin that you would not normally see,

519
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: particularly when you're talking about in sized wins, which are slices,

520
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: not stabs. They concluded that this was a very sharp instrument.

521
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: That means that the edges the edges when you look

522
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: at the edges themselves. And one of the things that's

523
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: kind of fascinating that people don't know that we do

524
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: in the morgue after we clean off an injury, like

525
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 1: we wash down the body. Okay, do you know that

526
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: we will actually take scotch tape and place it in

527
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: bridge across the knife injuries and pull it together like this,

528
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: it's not gaping the entire time. We'll actually take photographs

529
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 1: with tape off and with tape on, and it gives

530
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: you an idea. You can really see the definitive line.

531
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,919
Speaker 1: Because when you're looking at it, I know you've heard

532
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: me say four use the term of the winking eye.

533
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: It just looks like this gaping thing. But when you

534
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: take tape and place it across it and pull those

535
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 1: edges or margins together, you can really appreciate it. I

536
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 1: would imagine they did something similar to that in the Morgue.

537
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: They were able to appreciate those little margins. That's one

538
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 1: of the reasons they were able to conclude that this

539
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: is a very sharp knife. Also, if this knife passed

540
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: through into her long Dave, here's something else that's taken place.

541
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: This blade is passing through bone. Understand that just you

542
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: have to understand that you cannot unless you hit it perfectly,

543
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: and the blade is turned so that it is in

544
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 1: the horizontal plane as opposed to the vertical plane, which

545
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 1: almost seems abnormal, it would have notched the bone. There's

546
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 1: a high probability of that. If not in Mattie's case,

547
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,240
Speaker 1: certainly in maybe some of the other cases along the way,

548
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: they were also able to determine this very sharp knife.

549
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: They did conclude that this is not a serrated knife,

550
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 1: that this is a smooth edge as opposed to serrated

551
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 1: you think about steak knife, for instance. And I worked

552
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: a lot of those cases. The edges are not uh,

553
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: they've almost got a forensic pathologists use the term scalloped.

554
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: They have a scalloped appearance to them. You know, they're

555
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: kind of curved out in those areas. So I don't

556
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: think that that that's what they were dealing with. They

557
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: knew pretty quickly that this is a single edge blade

558
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: that was very sharp, and that it was that it

559
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: was certainly sufficient to the task, which of course, in

560
00:37:49,080 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: Mattie's case, led to a horrific, horrific end. Dave, you

561
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: have daughters. I have daughters. When they're little, I always

562
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: found we used to get kid. My youngest daughter, she

563
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 1: would come home from school and she'd say, I have

564
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: a new best friend. I was like, how can you

565
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: have a new best friend? What happened to the old

566
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: when others still my best friend? And I couldn't understand,

567
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 1: And my wife said, calm down, she's a girl.

568
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 2: This is the way this operates.

569
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 1: It's like, well a boy, if I have I had

570
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: a best friend when I was growing up. He was

571
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: like my best friend all the way through high school.

572
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I didn't have like multiple best friends.

573
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: Kaylee and Maddie were like best friends. I mean, it

574
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 1: wasn't like, well she's my best friend, she's my best friend.

575
00:38:54,880 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 1: It's like they're best friends. There's kind of a a

576
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: lot to kind of understand there, in a very tragic sense,

577
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 1: almost Shakespearean. I think.

578
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 2: The Fly's family that they died together. Hayley's family talked

579
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 2: about Maddie as a sister.

580
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: You know.

581
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: That's what Olivia Gonzaba's talked about losing sisters. That they

582
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 2: were so tied together for so long that they were

583
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 2: members of each other's family. There was more than just

584
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 2: their you know, the friends. They were family. And that's

585
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 2: why the pain was so My heart hurts for the

586
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 2: family so much that I was thankful they got that.

587
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 2: I just say what they said. But when I was

588
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 2: reading over the police reports, Joe and I was trying

589
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 2: to map it out of my head. Clinically speaking, because

590
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 2: of having daughters in that age group where they My

591
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 2: house was the gathering house, and so both my daughters,

592
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 2: Hailey and Hannah both had their best buddies, always spending

593
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 2: it seemed, you know, and having knowing how girls are

594
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 2: and knowing how these two had been out that night,

595
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: and you can tell their closeness. I pictured them at

596
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 2: the food truck, just being pals, you know, and they

597
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 2: go in there and they're just being pals. And here

598
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 2: they are, and this horrific thing takes place. Maddie is incapacitated.

599
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 2: Kaylee is there, and you know, it was Steve Gonzabz.

600
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: It was Kaylee's father that I actually explained that his

601
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 2: daughter ended up trapped. And I couldn't quite grasp that

602
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 2: until I saw the reports because of where they were

603
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 2: in the bed Kaylee Gonzavez. As this attack began on Maddie.

604
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 2: Kaylee wakes up, but she is trapped between Mattie, who's

605
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 2: trying to fend off this attack, and the wall. Kaylee

606
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 2: is between Maddie and the wall on the bed. Imagine

607
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 2: what that was like. That's why I'm trying to get

608
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 2: an idea, Joe, of how how quickly would they become

609
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 2: incapacitated from the knife injuries, Maddie and then Kaylee. Because

610
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,399
Speaker 2: there we're talking a very short window of time here.

611
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 2: We're not talking a long draw. We're not talking minutes.

612
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 2: We're talking minute sixty seconds. Is that enough for Maddie

613
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 2: for the attack to begin, her becoming incapacitated in the

614
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 2: attack on Kelley take place one minute forty five seconds.

615
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 2: What are we talking about here?

616
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: Well, that's one of the questions people have thrown out

617
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: there many times. Is it possible? Is it possible for

618
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: this reptile to have entered this home and killed four

619
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: people in the short period of time? I believe it now, Yeah,

620
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: I do too, And I think, putting on my junior

621
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: psychology had here, I think that if you've got an

622
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 1: individual such as this that is in a heightened state

623
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: of arousal and you can't separate these two things, I

624
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: think are three things. Hatred, rage, and sexual fixation I

625
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: think existed and it's it's there's there's no force on

626
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: earth I think that can stop this, particularly in the

627
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: dead of night when you surprise somebody and this individual

628
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: has been fantasizing about this. That's that's the real deep

629
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: dive here. Isn't it. He's been fantasizing about this for

630
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 1: a protracted period of time, I think, and it's stewed.

631
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: It's stewed with anger and hatred, and and I think

632
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: it's it's something old timers just called bloodlust. I think

633
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: that's that's what's going on here. And if I could

634
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,240
Speaker 1: go back for a second, there's one kind of little

635
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: interesting tidbit I think here from from what the detectives

636
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 1: have stated, is that they were found covered with a

637
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 1: blood soilk pink blanket. Now, you know, I'd like to

638
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: know more about the blanket. I'd like to know, you

639
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: know what, what the origin of that blanket is. I

640
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 1: want to know if somebody covered their bodies, or if

641
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: this reptile covered their bodies, and you know what, what

642
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,919
Speaker 1: the purpose of that was, Because you know, I've seen

643
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: people like it seems one thing that most folks cannot

644
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: bear is to look at a dead body. You'd be surprised, Dave,

645
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: I think maybe you wouldn't. I don't know. I've made you,

646
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: I've made you jaded. I think there are a lot

647
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: of people that when we work cases and say they're outdoors,

648
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: people really take offense to see in an exposed body.

649
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 1: They can't stand it. They cast their eyes bepon it.

650
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 2: They want us to.

651
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: Do something to cover the back of the body. Yeah,

652
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: and that's one of the that's what kind of prompted

653
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: the evolution of Well, there's two reasons, but that's what

654
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 1: kind of prompted the evolution of crime. See tents where

655
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: we could drop the sides. It almost looks like a

656
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: funeral tint, you know, the funeral tentts that you have

657
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: at gravesite. They look about those dimensions. And plus, we

658
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: don't want you see in what we're doing, you know,

659
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 1: inside of there, because it's none of you beeswax, because

660
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 1: we're collecting evidence within there. But also you get these

661
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: calls all the time, you know, why do you leave

662
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: their body out there so long? Well, we're working the case,

663
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: you know, right back at you. Why are you looking

664
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: if you find it that offensive? But that's not the

665
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: case within the house, you know, it's a protected environment.

666
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 1: So how did that blanket get onto the bodies? Whose

667
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 1: blanket was Well, we'd have to assume that it might

668
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: be Mattie's because she's still living there. But for all

669
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: I know, Katie might have brought a blanket with her,

670
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: my wife, my daughter. They both have favorite blankets that

671
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: no matter where we go, those blankets go with them everywhere.

672
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 1: I don't care. I'll I'll take an old burlap bag

673
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: and pull up on it. But you know, some people

674
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: take comfort in their particular blanket. But you know, that's

675
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: really kind of an interesting thing. And you had mentioned

676
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 1: how mister Gonzalveez God Blessing had mentioned that the k

677
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: was trapped, and just imagine being on this tiny surface

678
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,439
Speaker 1: and you've got this animal that comes into the room,

679
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:26,399
Speaker 1: and it's a grim reaper and he's wielding his sight

680
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: at this point in time, swinging it about in the

681
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 1: form of a knife. You hear a disturbance, maybe you

682
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,280
Speaker 1: jolt awake, and the next thing you know, you feel

683
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 1: your pain center firing. You start to fight back. Your

684
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 1: best friend in the world is laying there. Maybe you

685
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:49,439
Speaker 1: hear her expiating blood, struggling to breathe, gurgling, moaning, those

686
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 1: things that come along almost you know, I know you've

687
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: heard this term, but I'll throw it out there too,

688
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 1: And this is real. By the way, the death rattle,

689
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: there's a death rattle that comes on people in the throes.

690
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: You know you can tell that it's happening. I've had

691
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 1: countless people tell me about it over the years throughout

692
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 1: my career. And like I had said previously with Maddie,

693
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: this was not a quick death. She lingered for a bit.

694
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: I think this is not like, you know, someone has

695
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: been shot in the head and suddenly the lights, lights

696
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 1: are out, No one's at home. It's not like that.

697
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 1: This is not like that. But out of every victim

698
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: in this house, for whatever reason, which remains a mystery,

699
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: Kaylee's scene seems at least to have gotten the worst

700
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: of it. I've heard all manner things, some of it accurate,

701
00:46:52,200 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: some of it inaccurate about what these injuries were that

702
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 1: she had sustained. I'll go ahead and throw this number

703
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 1: at you, and this comes directly from the police. Twenty

704
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: stab wounds, Dave. When when an individual gets above like

705
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 1: ten or they hit ten a victim, that is it

706
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: really you know it? In my world, it makes us

707
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: really raise an eyebrow, okay, because we see when you

708
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: see this grotesque number and it's climbing. We're not talking ten,

709
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: We're not talking fifteen. We're talking at least twenty stab wounds.

710
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 1: You have to try to understand. You know, there needs

711
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 1: to be some explaining that goes on here, you know

712
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: what exactly why was so much anger and force directed

713
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: at this young woman. Because then after you get beyond

714
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: the twenty stab wines Dave, then the specter of disfigurement rises,

715
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 1: It kind of raises its ugly head along with it.

716
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: Everybody in my field, particularly if you've worked in major,

717
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:27,879
Speaker 1: major areas, you work cases of disfigurement. It happens, and

718
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: it's generally either with a bludgeon like a blunt object,

719
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 1: or it's going to be with a knife. Most of

720
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 1: the time it's with sharp force. And when when you

721
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 1: think about disfigurement, it can come in any number of ways.

722
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 1: You can have people that have their faces slashed. You

723
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: can have elements of the face and the head cut

724
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:55,839
Speaker 1: off that goes into disfigurement, and you can also have

725
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 1: blunt force trauma that comes along with that. And one

726
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 1: need not have have one need not have you know,

727
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: an iron pipe or a baseball bat to generate that.

728
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: You can actually generate, Dave, I don't know if you

729
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 1: know this. You can actually generate blunt force trauma with

730
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: a knife. If you're just imagine right now that you've

731
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: taken a roll of dimes or a roll of nickels,

732
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: and you've balled it up, You've rolled it up into

733
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: your fist. Well, suddenly your fist is twice as strong

734
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,919
Speaker 1: as it normally would be, and it's carrying extra weight.

735
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 1: And if you're trying to get somebody to submit to

736
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 1: you and you're holding, say you're clutching a knife, it's

737
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: rolled up, you begin to pound on them with a

738
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 1: knife clenching. You're not using a blade here, understand, you're

739
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: using your fist. You're striking downward. And also, what can

740
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 1: cause a really nasty injury if I urge anybody that

741
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,760
Speaker 1: hasn't seen and I think most people have that hasn't

742
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 1: seen an image of the cave look at it, because

743
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 1: it has got a guard, a handguard on this thing.

744
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 1: That could create some really odd injuries depended upon how

745
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 1: an individual is struck with it. And they're not going

746
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 1: to look like knife injuries. They're going to look like

747
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: something else. They're not going to have those really neat

748
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 1: edges to them like you see with the blade, the

749
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: cutting the business side of the blade. It's going to

750
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: have a more it's not a blunt object, but it

751
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 1: will have the margins will not if the handguard itself

752
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 1: breaks the skin, it's going to be a bit more

753
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 1: jagged in appearance. Here's another thing that people, I urge

754
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: you if you take a look at the Kbar knife

755
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:54,720
Speaker 1: and look at it in its totality, particularly the handle.

756
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: The handle, I'm not really sure what the composite is.

757
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: I think in the past has been leather. That handle

758
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: is striped, and it's striped in the horizontal plane, so

759
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: you've got these ringlets that kind of run around it,

760
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: and they're furrowed. If the thing actually has furrows in

761
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 1: it so that you can grip it. The reason it's

762
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:21,720
Speaker 1: made that way is like our fighting force, the Marine Corps.

763
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 1: Can you imagine being on some hell hole in the

764
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 1: South Pacific Island and you're fighting the Japanese. You're sweating,

765
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: right that handle that they that they introduced, and the

766
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,800
Speaker 1: knife was introduced to the Marine Corps in nineteen forty two.

767
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: It prevents using from slipping in your hand, okay, if

768
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 1: you're wearing, if you're holding it with a bare hand,

769
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,720
Speaker 1: and it's got a texture to it that almost feels

770
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: like a leather when you rub your hand, like unpolished leather. Almost.

771
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 1: It's not. It's like a rough swede kind of thing

772
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: that goes on there, but it's it actually has these

773
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 1: in the horizontal plane. It's got these ridges that are

774
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: cut into it. Now, I've heard that some of the

775
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: trauma that Kaylee had sustained had these kind of linear

776
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 1: marks to it, and I was and when I'm saying

777
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: this from the perspective of disfigurement, if she has sustained

778
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 1: blunt force trauma with this thing, I'm wondering if part

779
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 1: of the handle, perhaps just the force of it, you know,

780
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: kind of raining down on her, made contact and it

781
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: braided that area and it would leave behind that impression

782
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 1: that abraided impression, Dave.

783
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:44,760
Speaker 2: She had horizontal markings that they couldn't identify Iho State Police.

784
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 2: The detective actually talked about that there were injuries that

785
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 2: they could not identify or hadn't identified at the point

786
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 2: that we were reading the report. Doesn't mean they haven't

787
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 2: come up with an idea by now, but at the

788
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 2: point they wrote the report, they didn't know where they

789
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:04,399
Speaker 2: came from. But I got to ask you a couple

790
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,840
Speaker 2: of the questions, because all right, Kaylee has her fatal

791
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 2: injuries included left lung laceration, liver laceration, just like Maddie.

792
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 2: But then she also has two subdural bleeds and a

793
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:23,800
Speaker 2: stab behind her clavicle which cut her subclavian vein and artery.

794
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 2: But there was the other idea of the asphyxial injuries,

795
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 2: and I put that together with Dylan Mortenson. Dylan Mortenson,

796
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 2: in her statement to police said she heard Kaylee scream

797
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 2: somebody's in the house. Now, we didn't hear that up

798
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 2: or at least I don't recall hearing that in any

799
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 2: of the reports we've done on this until I read

800
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:53,320
Speaker 2: the report, and I actually went to the thirty second,

801
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 2: thirty third, and thirty fourth pages of the three hundred

802
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 2: and found Dylan Mortenson talking to two different police officers

803
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 2: and she mentioned that Kaylee she heard Kaylee, who she

804
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 2: thought was Kaylee, scream somebody's in the house. She said, scream,

805
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 2: somebody's in the house. And then she described hearing some

806
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 2: of the things. But now that I know that Dylan

807
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 2: Mortons didn't describe Kaylee screaming, now the gagging that we

808
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:28,360
Speaker 2: had the injuries makes sense. They didn't make sense before

809
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 2: because Kaylee has injuries that are specific to her and

810
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 2: different from everyone else. But if she woke up and

811
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 2: she is screaming somebody's in the house, get help or whatever,

812
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,399
Speaker 2: then yeah, her injuries are going to include gagging trying

813
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 2: to get her to shut up. I'm surprised he didn't

814
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:45,959
Speaker 2: cut her throat, you know, but what damage he did?

815
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 1: He got close, He got close, because you know you

816
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 1: were you alluded to these subclavian injuries.

817
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 2: I don't know what is that? Why don't they write

818
00:54:57,520 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 2: out what these are for those of us who haven't

819
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 2: gone to medical to school.

820
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,759
Speaker 1: Well, so it's it's your clavical, it's your it's your

821
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: collar bone, you know which. Uh. I don't know about you.

822
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 1: I've broken my right one at some point in time,

823
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 1: painful injury. By the way. You've got you've got these

824
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 1: vessels that travel beneath the clavical hence sub claviing. Uh.

825
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 1: And you have veins and arteries, so you've got uh,

826
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 1: you've got a venus return, you have arterial delivery. And

827
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:37,319
Speaker 1: both of these are very Uh. Either one of those

828
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:41,399
Speaker 1: can portent a fatal event, So both of those could

829
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,840
Speaker 1: be fatal. You know, I've been scratching my head over this,

830
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 1: this this idea that the police have put out, and

831
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,799
Speaker 1: I know that this is coming from the forensic pathologist

832
00:55:54,760 --> 00:56:01,320
Speaker 1: uh that did the autopsies. Every one's bookan that there's

833
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:05,280
Speaker 1: an element of asphyxia here. I am thinking at least

834
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 1: that the only way you can make this diagnosis is

835
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 1: by evidence of potential petiki perhaps, you know, you combine

836
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 1: that with the weight of the lungs, this sort of thing.

837
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 1: But she's undergoing this traumatic event, the horrific part in

838
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 1: all of it's horrific. But I think that one of

839
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:38,759
Speaker 1: the real troubling things about this is that she is alive.

840
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: This was not again a sudden This is a torturous,

841
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 1: torturous death. There would have been an awareness again on

842
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:54,760
Speaker 1: her part, as there was on Maddie's as well. Kayley's

843
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 1: may have lasted a bit longer and she did, you know,

844
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 1: fight back, you know, and you try to take some

845
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:08,280
Speaker 1: kind of I don't know solace in that. I guess

846
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 1: I don't know that you can actually take solace in

847
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 1: something that horrific. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is

848
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 1: body backs