1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,436 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:29,996 --> 00:00:33,196 Speaker 2: A mantra that I've always lived by was that I 3 00:00:33,276 --> 00:00:37,516 Speaker 2: overcome odds, right like I overcome things that come my way, 4 00:00:37,676 --> 00:00:39,676 Speaker 2: and I figure it out and I land on my 5 00:00:39,756 --> 00:00:40,316 Speaker 2: two feet. 6 00:00:41,276 --> 00:00:44,596 Speaker 1: Felicia Shoe's biggest dream was to become a doctor, and 7 00:00:44,636 --> 00:00:48,916 Speaker 1: after years of dedication, she achieved that dream, but it 8 00:00:48,996 --> 00:00:50,676 Speaker 1: took a heavy toll on her. 9 00:00:51,436 --> 00:00:55,076 Speaker 2: I almost saw myself as this piece of glass and 10 00:00:55,836 --> 00:00:58,836 Speaker 2: it got a crack, and you get up and you 11 00:00:58,916 --> 00:01:01,036 Speaker 2: try to put a little band aid on it. You 12 00:01:01,076 --> 00:01:04,076 Speaker 2: know that doesn't work, and then another crack, and another 13 00:01:04,196 --> 00:01:05,956 Speaker 2: and another, and then you kind of just wonder, at 14 00:01:05,956 --> 00:01:08,196 Speaker 2: what point is it just gonna shatter? 15 00:01:12,116 --> 00:01:15,036 Speaker 1: On today's show, how do you know when to let 16 00:01:15,076 --> 00:01:21,636 Speaker 1: go of a dream? I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who 17 00:01:21,636 --> 00:01:25,236 Speaker 1: studies human behavior, and this is a Slight Change of Plans, 18 00:01:25,596 --> 00:01:27,916 Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become 19 00:01:28,156 --> 00:01:39,596 Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. Felicia is actually 20 00:01:39,596 --> 00:01:43,516 Speaker 1: a longtime fan of A Slight Change of Plans. Her husband, Chen, 21 00:01:43,636 --> 00:01:46,876 Speaker 1: reached out to us earlier this year to share her story. 22 00:01:46,956 --> 00:01:50,796 Speaker 1: She'd never spoken publicly about her experience before, but felt 23 00:01:50,836 --> 00:01:53,596 Speaker 1: that this show was the right place to finally open up. 24 00:01:54,556 --> 00:01:57,356 Speaker 1: I really hope that her story will help anyone who's 25 00:01:57,396 --> 00:02:01,836 Speaker 1: grappling with the prospect of leaving something behind, something that 26 00:02:01,876 --> 00:02:05,956 Speaker 1: they thought would define their future. From the time Felicia 27 00:02:06,076 --> 00:02:08,316 Speaker 1: was a little kid, she knew she wanted to be 28 00:02:08,356 --> 00:02:10,636 Speaker 1: a doctor. It felt like a calling. 29 00:02:11,436 --> 00:02:15,156 Speaker 2: My introduction to medicine in some ways was through Eastern medicine. Actually, 30 00:02:15,716 --> 00:02:19,316 Speaker 2: my mom's best friend is an acupuncturist. I used to 31 00:02:19,356 --> 00:02:21,436 Speaker 2: go and she would babysit me, and I would say 32 00:02:21,436 --> 00:02:23,916 Speaker 2: in the office, I would watch people come in with 33 00:02:23,996 --> 00:02:26,476 Speaker 2: like frozen shoulder and then like you do acupuncture and 34 00:02:26,516 --> 00:02:28,556 Speaker 2: you just put all these needles into someone. It looks 35 00:02:28,596 --> 00:02:31,316 Speaker 2: kind of freaky, and then like she takes it out 36 00:02:31,396 --> 00:02:33,076 Speaker 2: and suddenly they can move their shoulder. 37 00:02:33,716 --> 00:02:35,716 Speaker 3: For me, like as a kid, I was like, what 38 00:02:35,796 --> 00:02:37,996 Speaker 3: the heck, what is that? 39 00:02:38,076 --> 00:02:39,836 Speaker 2: Like I can't see what the needles are doing, but 40 00:02:39,876 --> 00:02:42,516 Speaker 2: like somehow it fixed something. I think that was the 41 00:02:42,516 --> 00:02:45,436 Speaker 2: first time that medicine kind of looked more like magic 42 00:02:45,516 --> 00:02:48,356 Speaker 2: for me, and I was like, I want to be 43 00:02:48,436 --> 00:02:51,996 Speaker 2: a doctor. I want to connect with people. I want 44 00:02:52,036 --> 00:02:54,716 Speaker 2: to help people in like a time of need. 45 00:02:55,196 --> 00:02:58,476 Speaker 1: Where do you think your drive to help people come from? 46 00:02:59,076 --> 00:03:02,596 Speaker 2: My mom had really severe depression, and I think that 47 00:03:02,676 --> 00:03:04,636 Speaker 2: was really tough on me as a kid. I think 48 00:03:04,676 --> 00:03:06,796 Speaker 2: as a kid you kind of soak up, you know, 49 00:03:08,036 --> 00:03:10,436 Speaker 2: all the emotions around you. Took up way more than 50 00:03:10,436 --> 00:03:13,396 Speaker 2: you think, and I think I so badly wanted to 51 00:03:13,436 --> 00:03:16,116 Speaker 2: make things better for her. I just didn't know how. 52 00:03:17,156 --> 00:03:19,676 Speaker 1: What was your parents response when you first told them 53 00:03:19,796 --> 00:03:20,916 Speaker 1: you wanted to be a doctor. 54 00:03:21,596 --> 00:03:24,756 Speaker 2: You kind of think like Asian parents, like, oh, They're like, oh, 55 00:03:24,836 --> 00:03:28,396 Speaker 2: you have to be a doctor or nothing else, right. 56 00:03:28,356 --> 00:03:30,196 Speaker 1: Yes, of course it's a stereotype. 57 00:03:30,276 --> 00:03:31,276 Speaker 3: It's the stereotype. 58 00:03:31,396 --> 00:03:35,276 Speaker 2: But my mom the first thing was like are you sure, 59 00:03:36,316 --> 00:03:38,556 Speaker 2: And I was like, well, what do you mean? She 60 00:03:38,916 --> 00:03:42,476 Speaker 2: really prioritized happiness and so for her, she was like, 61 00:03:43,356 --> 00:03:46,756 Speaker 2: will you be happy being a doctor, because doctors that 62 00:03:46,836 --> 00:03:49,876 Speaker 2: I know, like have no time for family, no time 63 00:03:49,916 --> 00:03:55,876 Speaker 2: for vacation, no time for happiness and joy. So they 64 00:03:55,916 --> 00:04:00,876 Speaker 2: actually tried to really distract me from medicine, like they 65 00:04:00,956 --> 00:04:02,276 Speaker 2: tried everything to say like. 66 00:04:02,556 --> 00:04:05,996 Speaker 3: What about this, what about research? What about engineering? 67 00:04:06,596 --> 00:04:08,596 Speaker 2: But then I guess I was the one who was like, 68 00:04:09,196 --> 00:04:10,676 Speaker 2: hell bent, I'm pursuing it. 69 00:04:11,356 --> 00:04:14,436 Speaker 1: You end up going down this path of pre medical training, 70 00:04:14,596 --> 00:04:17,516 Speaker 1: So tell me about that. What kind of resources and 71 00:04:17,556 --> 00:04:19,716 Speaker 1: time did you invest in this process? 72 00:04:20,156 --> 00:04:23,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's always interesting when someone asked me, like, how 73 00:04:23,156 --> 00:04:25,556 Speaker 2: many years have you put into being a doctor, And 74 00:04:25,716 --> 00:04:28,796 Speaker 2: I just I never know what to say, because is 75 00:04:28,796 --> 00:04:30,836 Speaker 2: it med school? Is it med school plus undergrad? Is 76 00:04:30,836 --> 00:04:33,236 Speaker 2: it medical plus undergrad plus high school? It's the sort 77 00:04:33,236 --> 00:04:36,076 Speaker 2: of classic like you gotta get your GPA, you gotta 78 00:04:36,116 --> 00:04:38,356 Speaker 2: do all the activities, you got to explore, you got 79 00:04:38,356 --> 00:04:39,156 Speaker 2: to do research. 80 00:04:40,556 --> 00:04:43,996 Speaker 1: So you were just heads down studying nights, weekends. 81 00:04:44,076 --> 00:04:45,796 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was pretty brutal. 82 00:04:45,876 --> 00:04:47,796 Speaker 1: Okay, so a lot of sacrifice, A lot. 83 00:04:47,676 --> 00:04:50,676 Speaker 2: Of sacrifice because it's like ten twelve years of training 84 00:04:50,916 --> 00:04:55,316 Speaker 2: and after MIT I ended up just hopping across the 85 00:04:55,396 --> 00:04:56,956 Speaker 2: river going to Harvard Medical. 86 00:04:56,716 --> 00:04:59,796 Speaker 1: School, no big deal, you know, as we all do. 87 00:05:01,236 --> 00:05:04,156 Speaker 2: And then just kind of leaned into medicine. I really 88 00:05:04,196 --> 00:05:09,556 Speaker 2: fell in love with the thinking behind medicine, feeling like, oh, 89 00:05:09,796 --> 00:05:12,596 Speaker 2: you know, I'm putting things together in my brain. I 90 00:05:12,636 --> 00:05:15,196 Speaker 2: can help this person and to be able to be 91 00:05:15,316 --> 00:05:18,596 Speaker 2: there for them in that moment. The combination was pretty 92 00:05:18,676 --> 00:05:19,876 Speaker 2: much what cent shift for me. 93 00:05:20,676 --> 00:05:24,476 Speaker 1: So let's transition to your residency. This was the summer 94 00:05:24,516 --> 00:05:28,396 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty you did your residency at UCLA. It's 95 00:05:28,436 --> 00:05:32,716 Speaker 1: the height of the pandemic. What was your mindset going 96 00:05:32,796 --> 00:05:33,756 Speaker 1: into residency? 97 00:05:34,636 --> 00:05:40,316 Speaker 2: Oh man, I'll back up a little bit, because March 98 00:05:40,356 --> 00:05:44,716 Speaker 2: twenty twenty, how I was feeling was like on top 99 00:05:44,756 --> 00:05:46,916 Speaker 2: of the world. At first, you know, I was like, 100 00:05:47,036 --> 00:05:50,196 Speaker 2: I'm about to graduate med school, Like I'm about to 101 00:05:50,276 --> 00:05:53,756 Speaker 2: finally become a doctor. At this point, I had met 102 00:05:53,836 --> 00:05:56,316 Speaker 2: my now husband, and I was like, I have met 103 00:05:56,316 --> 00:05:57,356 Speaker 2: the love of my life. 104 00:05:58,036 --> 00:05:58,956 Speaker 3: We're going to get. 105 00:05:58,756 --> 00:06:02,676 Speaker 2: Married, We're already engaged. Things are going on track. If 106 00:06:02,716 --> 00:06:06,236 Speaker 2: it's not obvious, I'm a planner, So things were going 107 00:06:06,236 --> 00:06:09,556 Speaker 2: according to pay check the boxes, check the boxes, correct 108 00:06:09,716 --> 00:06:11,916 Speaker 2: my timeline that I had laid out. We were on track, 109 00:06:12,556 --> 00:06:17,036 Speaker 2: and COVID happened and the whole world shut down, and 110 00:06:17,076 --> 00:06:19,516 Speaker 2: we decided to live with my parents to make sure, 111 00:06:19,676 --> 00:06:22,276 Speaker 2: like if quarantine were to separate us, at least we're 112 00:06:22,316 --> 00:06:26,836 Speaker 2: stuck together. And it was in those few months from 113 00:06:27,076 --> 00:06:32,996 Speaker 2: March to May that that's when everything changed, because I 114 00:06:33,036 --> 00:06:38,156 Speaker 2: started noticing that something was really not right with my dad. 115 00:06:39,556 --> 00:06:42,116 Speaker 2: And he is this like I don't know how to 116 00:06:42,156 --> 00:06:45,956 Speaker 2: describe it. It's like he's your like stoic Asian dad. 117 00:06:46,356 --> 00:06:50,636 Speaker 2: Everything is fine, everything is cheery, no pain, everything's good. 118 00:06:51,476 --> 00:06:56,116 Speaker 2: And there was one morning where I walked downstairs and 119 00:06:56,636 --> 00:07:01,596 Speaker 2: I heard this like really guttural sound coming from his room. 120 00:07:02,036 --> 00:07:05,676 Speaker 2: And I walked in and my dad was basically sitting 121 00:07:05,716 --> 00:07:10,356 Speaker 2: up in bed, keeled over, just come completely drenched and 122 00:07:10,436 --> 00:07:14,676 Speaker 2: sweat and groaning. And I was like, oh my god, 123 00:07:14,756 --> 00:07:18,116 Speaker 2: what's wrong? And he said the pain was really bad 124 00:07:18,156 --> 00:07:21,156 Speaker 2: and it was going to his back. And I'm like 125 00:07:21,196 --> 00:07:23,716 Speaker 2: a new grat, like what do I know? But I 126 00:07:23,756 --> 00:07:27,156 Speaker 2: was like, something is really really wrong. And so I 127 00:07:27,236 --> 00:07:30,156 Speaker 2: ended up sending the imaging to a friend back at 128 00:07:30,156 --> 00:07:32,276 Speaker 2: Harvard and she sent it to her cousin who's an 129 00:07:32,276 --> 00:07:36,436 Speaker 2: abdominal radiologist, and she told me that my dad had 130 00:07:36,556 --> 00:07:41,516 Speaker 2: this huge tumor in his pancreas that was basically pancretic cancer. 131 00:07:42,476 --> 00:07:46,676 Speaker 2: And so I remember like walking outside in the dark 132 00:07:46,676 --> 00:07:49,116 Speaker 2: because I didn't want anyone to see me. I have 133 00:07:49,196 --> 00:07:50,836 Speaker 2: a thing where like I can't cry in front of 134 00:07:50,876 --> 00:07:56,236 Speaker 2: my family, and honestly, I was just devastated. And it 135 00:07:56,316 --> 00:07:59,796 Speaker 2: was this thing where like I was trying to process it, 136 00:08:00,396 --> 00:08:03,756 Speaker 2: but at the same time like get myself together to 137 00:08:03,876 --> 00:08:06,956 Speaker 2: be able to go in and tell my parents what 138 00:08:07,436 --> 00:08:12,596 Speaker 2: the finding was. So that was my mindset right before residency. 139 00:08:13,236 --> 00:08:16,996 Speaker 2: My dad is sick, possibly dying. I was starting residency, 140 00:08:17,036 --> 00:08:18,796 Speaker 2: which is supposed to be one of the most grueling 141 00:08:18,796 --> 00:08:21,236 Speaker 2: times of your life. And it was a residency during 142 00:08:21,276 --> 00:08:22,916 Speaker 2: COVID in which we had no idea what the hell 143 00:08:23,036 --> 00:08:23,476 Speaker 2: was going on. 144 00:08:24,716 --> 00:08:29,956 Speaker 1: So let's talk about let's talk about residency amidst this 145 00:08:31,556 --> 00:08:34,836 Speaker 1: perfect storm that's happening in your life. What was it 146 00:08:34,996 --> 00:08:36,076 Speaker 1: like day to day? 147 00:08:37,476 --> 00:08:38,476 Speaker 3: Have you ever watched The Pit? 148 00:08:39,316 --> 00:08:40,876 Speaker 1: Yeah? No, I'm obsessed with the Pit. 149 00:08:40,956 --> 00:08:44,996 Speaker 2: Oh okay, Yeah, it's incredibly accurate. I can't watch it. 150 00:08:44,996 --> 00:08:48,396 Speaker 2: It's like too heavy. Anyway, it was a pretty brutal schedule. 151 00:08:48,596 --> 00:08:51,196 Speaker 2: I would say on average, you easily worked eighty tw 152 00:08:51,196 --> 00:08:54,236 Speaker 2: one hundred hours per week, and your shifts could be 153 00:08:54,356 --> 00:08:55,716 Speaker 2: up to twenty eight hours long. 154 00:08:56,236 --> 00:08:56,836 Speaker 3: Oh my god. 155 00:08:56,956 --> 00:08:59,876 Speaker 2: You go in at seven am Tuesday morning and then 156 00:08:59,916 --> 00:09:04,196 Speaker 2: you go home at Wednesday twelve one pm. And it's 157 00:09:04,276 --> 00:09:09,716 Speaker 2: kind of this like non stop things happening all one 158 00:09:09,796 --> 00:09:10,436 Speaker 2: after another. 159 00:09:10,876 --> 00:09:11,516 Speaker 3: Yeah. 160 00:09:11,756 --> 00:09:14,596 Speaker 1: And then there was this added element to all of 161 00:09:14,636 --> 00:09:18,076 Speaker 1: this burden, which is that it was early months of 162 00:09:18,116 --> 00:09:24,916 Speaker 1: COVID where doctors and other healthcare practitioners don't necessarily know 163 00:09:25,516 --> 00:09:27,556 Speaker 1: everything they need to know about how to respond or 164 00:09:27,556 --> 00:09:29,916 Speaker 1: help their patients or what all the risk factors are. 165 00:09:30,556 --> 00:09:32,556 Speaker 1: So how did that compound the stress? 166 00:09:32,796 --> 00:09:36,796 Speaker 2: Oh man, this was a time when there weren't enough 167 00:09:37,276 --> 00:09:41,116 Speaker 2: masks and the gowns that could protect you. That at 168 00:09:41,196 --> 00:09:43,916 Speaker 2: least people thought they could protect you from COVID. We 169 00:09:43,996 --> 00:09:46,716 Speaker 2: didn't even know if they were truly protective. We would 170 00:09:46,796 --> 00:09:49,356 Speaker 2: have these like brown paper bags that we would just 171 00:09:49,436 --> 00:09:52,596 Speaker 2: hang up on the wall and after you used your mask, 172 00:09:52,716 --> 00:09:55,036 Speaker 2: you would dump it into the bag and then you 173 00:09:55,076 --> 00:09:58,276 Speaker 2: would reuse it, which that's actually it just doesn't work, 174 00:09:58,716 --> 00:10:00,036 Speaker 2: But that's the best we had. 175 00:10:00,276 --> 00:10:00,556 Speaker 1: Yeah. 176 00:10:01,116 --> 00:10:04,476 Speaker 2: I would fear, of course, for like myself getting it, 177 00:10:05,196 --> 00:10:08,276 Speaker 2: but it wasn't just myself, because I would go home, 178 00:10:08,596 --> 00:10:12,156 Speaker 2: I would be worried about my husband getting it. I 179 00:10:12,236 --> 00:10:15,436 Speaker 2: wanted to be there for my parents because during this 180 00:10:15,476 --> 00:10:18,076 Speaker 2: whole time, I was still advocating for my dad, like 181 00:10:18,116 --> 00:10:21,196 Speaker 2: I was still trying to push his care forward. 182 00:10:21,596 --> 00:10:23,556 Speaker 1: And were you still living with your parents so were 183 00:10:23,556 --> 00:10:24,156 Speaker 1: they at risk? 184 00:10:24,276 --> 00:10:26,596 Speaker 2: No, so I was living in la at that time. 185 00:10:26,956 --> 00:10:30,036 Speaker 2: But I would want to be delivering food to them. 186 00:10:30,516 --> 00:10:32,756 Speaker 2: But like I also didn't want to expose them. So 187 00:10:32,916 --> 00:10:36,076 Speaker 2: it was this constant internal battle with myself of like 188 00:10:36,196 --> 00:10:38,476 Speaker 2: I needed to help my parents, but by helping them, 189 00:10:38,476 --> 00:10:41,476 Speaker 2: I should actually stay away, but also like I should 190 00:10:41,516 --> 00:10:43,116 Speaker 2: be trying to spend time with them just in case 191 00:10:43,156 --> 00:10:45,916 Speaker 2: my dad doesn't have time left. So it was just 192 00:10:45,996 --> 00:10:49,916 Speaker 2: like all of this conflicting thoughts. That was also when 193 00:10:49,956 --> 00:10:54,556 Speaker 2: there was a lot of the anti Asian sentiment going around, 194 00:10:55,436 --> 00:10:57,796 Speaker 2: and I was really worried, and at the time, I 195 00:10:57,836 --> 00:11:00,996 Speaker 2: was like, don't go out for groceries, like just stay. 196 00:11:00,756 --> 00:11:04,996 Speaker 3: Home, order in. It was just like a total nightmare. 197 00:11:05,676 --> 00:11:07,316 Speaker 2: You kind of felt like you were failing on all 198 00:11:07,356 --> 00:11:09,716 Speaker 2: fronts because I'd be at work and I'd be like, oh, 199 00:11:09,756 --> 00:11:13,276 Speaker 2: I should be a better partner and daughter, but then 200 00:11:13,316 --> 00:11:14,836 Speaker 2: like I'd be there, but then I'm trying to be 201 00:11:14,876 --> 00:11:19,596 Speaker 2: a doctor and then trying to keep the grief of COVID. Honestly, 202 00:11:19,796 --> 00:11:23,956 Speaker 2: like the worst of COVID surges in LA were really bad, 203 00:11:24,876 --> 00:11:28,716 Speaker 2: and I would come home and I just like I'd 204 00:11:28,716 --> 00:11:32,956 Speaker 2: remember getting to the door and being like, okay, like 205 00:11:33,356 --> 00:11:37,156 Speaker 2: deep breath, going to leave this grief outside because there's 206 00:11:37,156 --> 00:11:40,396 Speaker 2: already so much inside the house. 207 00:11:41,116 --> 00:11:42,956 Speaker 3: But I think if you ask my husband I'm sure 208 00:11:43,236 --> 00:11:44,636 Speaker 3: it leaked in. Yeah. 209 00:11:44,716 --> 00:11:47,316 Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like you were very much just in 210 00:11:47,396 --> 00:11:53,076 Speaker 1: survival mode, right, like, get through every day unscathed and 211 00:11:53,436 --> 00:11:56,916 Speaker 1: just pope you survive the next day too. When did 212 00:11:56,916 --> 00:12:01,356 Speaker 1: you first sort of recognize the toll that this environment 213 00:12:01,476 --> 00:12:03,996 Speaker 1: was taking on you, both physically and mentally. 214 00:12:05,676 --> 00:12:10,076 Speaker 2: There was no one defining moment or disaster for me 215 00:12:10,636 --> 00:12:13,036 Speaker 2: that forced me to be like, oh my gosh, this 216 00:12:13,116 --> 00:12:16,196 Speaker 2: won't do. I almost saw myself as this piece of 217 00:12:16,316 --> 00:12:21,436 Speaker 2: glass and it got a crack, and you get up 218 00:12:21,476 --> 00:12:23,676 Speaker 2: and you try to put a little band aid on it, 219 00:12:23,916 --> 00:12:26,356 Speaker 2: and then another crack, and another and another, and then 220 00:12:26,356 --> 00:12:28,116 Speaker 2: you kind of just wonder, at what point is it 221 00:12:28,196 --> 00:12:34,036 Speaker 2: just gonna shatter? But I think the first time where 222 00:12:34,076 --> 00:12:37,636 Speaker 2: I was kind of forced into reality was actually in 223 00:12:37,716 --> 00:12:40,396 Speaker 2: November of twenty twenty, so I was about six months 224 00:12:40,396 --> 00:12:43,716 Speaker 2: into residency. My dad had just gotten most of his 225 00:12:43,836 --> 00:12:48,436 Speaker 2: chemo done, and on the bright side, my dad actually 226 00:12:48,436 --> 00:12:51,716 Speaker 2: responded really well to the chemo. The surgeon said, you 227 00:12:51,716 --> 00:12:53,436 Speaker 2: know what, I think it's shrunk enough that I think 228 00:12:53,476 --> 00:12:54,716 Speaker 2: we can try to take it. 229 00:12:54,676 --> 00:12:57,036 Speaker 3: Out, but let's do it quickly. Let's do it. 230 00:12:57,156 --> 00:13:01,476 Speaker 2: End of November and two days before my dad was 231 00:13:01,476 --> 00:13:06,316 Speaker 2: supposed to get surgery at UCLA. I had one of 232 00:13:06,356 --> 00:13:10,436 Speaker 2: the most intense abdominal pains that I've ever experienced in 233 00:13:10,516 --> 00:13:15,116 Speaker 2: my life. And when I showed up in the emergency room, 234 00:13:15,396 --> 00:13:18,596 Speaker 2: the things that went through my mind it's like super 235 00:13:18,676 --> 00:13:22,356 Speaker 2: sad to even think about. The first was wait, wait, wait, 236 00:13:22,396 --> 00:13:26,396 Speaker 2: like I can't afford to be here because my dad 237 00:13:26,436 --> 00:13:28,276 Speaker 2: has his surgery in two days and I have to 238 00:13:28,276 --> 00:13:29,836 Speaker 2: be there for him and my family. 239 00:13:30,516 --> 00:13:32,556 Speaker 3: What the heck is this? Like get me out kind 240 00:13:32,596 --> 00:13:32,876 Speaker 3: of thing. 241 00:13:33,716 --> 00:13:37,676 Speaker 2: The second was dang it, like this is the middle 242 00:13:37,676 --> 00:13:41,396 Speaker 2: of the night, I have to work the next day. 243 00:13:41,396 --> 00:13:43,956 Speaker 3: What am I gonna do? And maybe I. 244 00:13:43,876 --> 00:13:47,636 Speaker 2: Did register it on some level that something has to give, 245 00:13:49,236 --> 00:13:53,636 Speaker 2: But the thought in my mind was like, well, it's 246 00:13:53,636 --> 00:13:56,516 Speaker 2: not like I can stop being my dad's daughter. I 247 00:13:56,516 --> 00:13:59,476 Speaker 2: can't stop being a resident, Like what am I supposed 248 00:13:59,516 --> 00:14:01,156 Speaker 2: to do? Like, so there was no choice but to 249 00:14:01,196 --> 00:14:03,916 Speaker 2: kind of keep going. And it was like everyone suffers 250 00:14:03,956 --> 00:14:07,116 Speaker 2: in residency, Like we all do this, so just keep going, 251 00:14:07,196 --> 00:14:09,356 Speaker 2: Like what's wrong with you? 252 00:14:09,356 --> 00:14:13,236 Speaker 1: You encoded this as a sign of personal weakness. 253 00:14:13,596 --> 00:14:15,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought of like why can't I be better? 254 00:14:15,916 --> 00:14:18,196 Speaker 2: What's wrong with me? It was kind of like I 255 00:14:18,236 --> 00:14:22,756 Speaker 2: was blaming myself, and then I felt guilty actually because 256 00:14:22,796 --> 00:14:25,356 Speaker 2: also I was like, oh my god, I'm worrying my family. 257 00:14:26,236 --> 00:14:28,476 Speaker 2: They should just be focused on the surgery, and now 258 00:14:28,516 --> 00:14:31,356 Speaker 2: I'm putting them through this extra worry. 259 00:14:32,516 --> 00:14:35,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, what struck me and what you said. And I 260 00:14:35,476 --> 00:14:39,076 Speaker 1: think many people can relate to this level of self sacrifice, 261 00:14:39,116 --> 00:14:42,156 Speaker 1: as you said, Well, I can't stop being my dad's daughter, 262 00:14:42,276 --> 00:14:44,996 Speaker 1: and I can't stop being a resident. I guess I'll 263 00:14:44,996 --> 00:14:47,116 Speaker 1: just have to stop caring about myself. Yeah, I mean 264 00:14:47,156 --> 00:14:49,236 Speaker 1: that's essentially what you did. Oh, I can just stop 265 00:14:49,676 --> 00:14:52,996 Speaker 1: investing in this body and this human that I am 266 00:14:53,116 --> 00:14:59,316 Speaker 1: right now. And I imagine many people have to confront 267 00:14:59,316 --> 00:15:02,876 Speaker 1: that at times where they're a caregiver or they have 268 00:15:02,916 --> 00:15:08,196 Speaker 1: an incredibly demanding job and it's just their own needs 269 00:15:08,516 --> 00:15:10,876 Speaker 1: come life. If at all, it sounds like you didn't 270 00:15:10,876 --> 00:15:14,076 Speaker 1: even put yourself on the list. Yeah, you took yourself 271 00:15:14,076 --> 00:15:15,356 Speaker 1: off the list entirely. 272 00:15:16,636 --> 00:15:17,716 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I did. 273 00:15:17,996 --> 00:15:21,156 Speaker 2: But it's crazy because in the moment, like I would 274 00:15:21,196 --> 00:15:23,796 Speaker 2: like to say that I'm a somewhat reflective person, like 275 00:15:23,876 --> 00:15:27,356 Speaker 2: I think a lot about how I'm thinking, and yet 276 00:15:27,796 --> 00:15:32,316 Speaker 2: just totally miss this in the moment, like it just 277 00:15:32,436 --> 00:15:33,876 Speaker 2: wasn't even a thing. 278 00:15:34,796 --> 00:15:38,116 Speaker 1: I think, when you are so maximally stressed and you 279 00:15:38,116 --> 00:15:43,916 Speaker 1: have zero mental bandwidth, who would have the ability to introspect. 280 00:15:43,956 --> 00:15:46,796 Speaker 1: I mean, you're barely sleeping, you barely have time to eat, 281 00:15:47,076 --> 00:15:51,116 Speaker 1: you're working ungodly shift lengths. I'm not surprised at all 282 00:15:51,396 --> 00:15:55,196 Speaker 1: that that would be sort of the instinctual response what 283 00:15:55,556 --> 00:15:57,756 Speaker 1: was the nature of your pain and what did that 284 00:15:57,836 --> 00:15:58,676 Speaker 1: mean for your work? 285 00:15:59,116 --> 00:16:02,836 Speaker 2: So I found out that my pain was actually intestinal spasms, 286 00:16:03,956 --> 00:16:07,716 Speaker 2: which can happen in stress or like a body's response 287 00:16:07,756 --> 00:16:10,676 Speaker 2: to stress. And at the time I didn't really realize 288 00:16:10,676 --> 00:16:12,596 Speaker 2: where that was really coming from. I just thought, oh, 289 00:16:12,636 --> 00:16:16,276 Speaker 2: I'm stressed with my dad's surgery and residency, like duh. 290 00:16:16,316 --> 00:16:18,556 Speaker 2: But the doctor came in and said like, oh, I 291 00:16:18,596 --> 00:16:21,916 Speaker 2: think you just need to rest more, and then laughed 292 00:16:22,716 --> 00:16:25,876 Speaker 2: because she knew I was a resident. And I was like, 293 00:16:25,996 --> 00:16:29,756 Speaker 2: I don't know if that's making me feel better or worse, 294 00:16:30,436 --> 00:16:33,196 Speaker 2: because it's kind of like she said it as like 295 00:16:33,316 --> 00:16:35,516 Speaker 2: this is all you need. You don't have cancer, you 296 00:16:35,516 --> 00:16:38,316 Speaker 2: don't have some disease. You know you're gonna be fine. 297 00:16:38,356 --> 00:16:40,716 Speaker 2: You just have to rest. But like knowing that it was, 298 00:16:41,636 --> 00:16:42,996 Speaker 2: you know, impossible. 299 00:16:43,676 --> 00:16:45,916 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to ask you whether that particular 300 00:16:45,956 --> 00:16:51,356 Speaker 1: diagnosis actually further perpetuated your self narrative of weakness. And 301 00:16:51,396 --> 00:16:53,476 Speaker 1: by the way, I think stress is as physical as 302 00:16:53,556 --> 00:16:56,956 Speaker 1: any other thing in the body, but psychologically we can 303 00:16:57,036 --> 00:16:59,916 Speaker 1: code that differently, we can carry a different emotional valance 304 00:16:59,956 --> 00:17:04,116 Speaker 1: for us. And so I'm curious to know whether you thought, yeah, Felicia, 305 00:17:04,356 --> 00:17:07,356 Speaker 1: this is on you tough enough. Yeah, deal with your 306 00:17:07,396 --> 00:17:09,796 Speaker 1: stress better a thousand persons, that's the culture here. 307 00:17:09,876 --> 00:17:14,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone is stressed. Come on, you know, like everyone 308 00:17:14,636 --> 00:17:18,596 Speaker 2: gets through it. Just deal with it. I felt so pathetic. 309 00:17:19,396 --> 00:17:22,756 Speaker 2: My worst fear actually was that I needed surgery. So 310 00:17:22,916 --> 00:17:24,636 Speaker 2: that part of me was like, Okay, good, I don't 311 00:17:24,676 --> 00:17:27,716 Speaker 2: need surgery. But in some ways it made me think like, oh, 312 00:17:27,716 --> 00:17:30,436 Speaker 2: it's not that big of a deal either, because if 313 00:17:30,476 --> 00:17:32,076 Speaker 2: it's just stress, I can just keep going. 314 00:17:34,716 --> 00:17:38,476 Speaker 1: When we return, Felicia tries to muscle her way through residency. 315 00:17:38,956 --> 00:17:41,116 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 316 00:17:41,116 --> 00:18:02,876 Speaker 1: of plans, and it's all the stress Felicia was facing 317 00:18:02,916 --> 00:18:05,756 Speaker 1: in her residency. There was one piece of good news 318 00:18:05,796 --> 00:18:09,156 Speaker 1: in her personal life, her dad's surgery to remove the 319 00:18:09,196 --> 00:18:12,956 Speaker 1: tumor and his pancreas had gone well. He was recovering, 320 00:18:13,596 --> 00:18:16,276 Speaker 1: but Felicia's health it was only getting worse. 321 00:18:17,556 --> 00:18:17,756 Speaker 2: You know. 322 00:18:17,956 --> 00:18:20,116 Speaker 3: I referenced the cracks before in the glass. 323 00:18:20,876 --> 00:18:23,196 Speaker 2: More and more and more cracks were coming up, like 324 00:18:23,276 --> 00:18:25,676 Speaker 2: more than I could keep track of. It was this 325 00:18:25,756 --> 00:18:30,916 Speaker 2: sort of rapidly increasing deterioration of my body. At one point, 326 00:18:31,316 --> 00:18:33,996 Speaker 2: I was coming off of a twenty eight hour shift 327 00:18:34,356 --> 00:18:38,196 Speaker 2: that had turned into twenty nine, and I noticed this 328 00:18:38,396 --> 00:18:41,836 Speaker 2: really annoying rash on my neck starting to go into 329 00:18:41,876 --> 00:18:45,476 Speaker 2: my ear. And it's one of those things where as 330 00:18:46,036 --> 00:18:48,836 Speaker 2: a resident, you're like, Eh, it's fine, you just kind 331 00:18:48,836 --> 00:18:52,036 Speaker 2: of move on. But then I realized, like, oh my god, 332 00:18:52,556 --> 00:18:57,716 Speaker 2: is this shingles? And I don't know if you know shingles, 333 00:18:57,796 --> 00:19:01,956 Speaker 2: but it's very much associated with sixty five year old 334 00:19:02,276 --> 00:19:07,116 Speaker 2: or older aminocompromised, neither of which I was. That was 335 00:19:07,116 --> 00:19:10,196 Speaker 2: probably the first time that I really looked at like wow, 336 00:19:10,316 --> 00:19:15,076 Speaker 2: Like I came to the point where I'm effectively imminocompromised. 337 00:19:16,036 --> 00:19:20,436 Speaker 2: What is wrong with my body? And this is where 338 00:19:20,476 --> 00:19:22,876 Speaker 2: it gets a little heavy. But when I was a kid, 339 00:19:22,916 --> 00:19:27,076 Speaker 2: I had a really traumatic experience with sexual abuse that 340 00:19:27,236 --> 00:19:30,476 Speaker 2: forced me to grow up at the age of seven, 341 00:19:30,916 --> 00:19:33,676 Speaker 2: and at the time, I kept it a secret because 342 00:19:33,676 --> 00:19:35,596 Speaker 2: I thought that's what I had to do until I 343 00:19:35,636 --> 00:19:39,516 Speaker 2: was eighteen. And I think the manifestations of hiding that 344 00:19:39,636 --> 00:19:43,396 Speaker 2: trauma in my body is what kind of it makes 345 00:19:43,396 --> 00:19:47,796 Speaker 2: my body respond to stress differently and was making my 346 00:19:47,836 --> 00:19:52,596 Speaker 2: body not cope with all of this additional stress, like 347 00:19:52,596 --> 00:19:55,036 Speaker 2: the intestinal spasms. And this was the first time where 348 00:19:55,036 --> 00:19:58,636 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, there are reasons that I'm breaking 349 00:19:58,676 --> 00:20:01,796 Speaker 2: down in a way that maybe other people aren't. Most 350 00:20:01,796 --> 00:20:04,596 Speaker 2: people after a twenty eight hour would go home and sleep, 351 00:20:05,036 --> 00:20:08,756 Speaker 2: they would get rest. For me, like I have an 352 00:20:08,796 --> 00:20:13,236 Speaker 2: intense stomach ache after really traumatizing COVID, I see you 353 00:20:13,276 --> 00:20:16,036 Speaker 2: shift and I'd go home and I like, I wouldn't 354 00:20:16,036 --> 00:20:20,836 Speaker 2: be able to sleep. And honestly, it reached this point 355 00:20:20,876 --> 00:20:25,196 Speaker 2: where two things happened. The first was I will never 356 00:20:25,276 --> 00:20:28,876 Speaker 2: forget this moment in the car. It was such a 357 00:20:28,876 --> 00:20:32,596 Speaker 2: heartbreaking moment for me and my husband when he looked 358 00:20:32,596 --> 00:20:34,436 Speaker 2: at me and I was on the way to the 359 00:20:34,716 --> 00:20:39,516 Speaker 2: er and he said, I can't keep taking you to 360 00:20:39,556 --> 00:20:43,556 Speaker 2: the er, like I just I can't handle this emotionally, 361 00:20:43,636 --> 00:20:45,756 Speaker 2: like it's taking a lot on me, Like I'm not 362 00:20:45,756 --> 00:20:49,156 Speaker 2: trying to make it about myself, but it's just a lot. 363 00:20:49,556 --> 00:20:56,036 Speaker 2: And I think it took seeing someone else suffer on 364 00:20:56,076 --> 00:21:00,436 Speaker 2: my behalf for me to be like, oh my god, wait, 365 00:21:00,716 --> 00:21:03,476 Speaker 2: like this isn't just about me, Like I'm not just 366 00:21:03,556 --> 00:21:06,916 Speaker 2: doing this to myself at this point. The second thing 367 00:21:06,996 --> 00:21:11,116 Speaker 2: was that I realized, like I wasn't rerecizing myself. I'm 368 00:21:11,156 --> 00:21:13,836 Speaker 2: aware when I'm not acting like myself, and it makes 369 00:21:13,876 --> 00:21:16,196 Speaker 2: me more annoyed that I'm not being myself. 370 00:21:16,556 --> 00:21:18,796 Speaker 1: I want to know how you were not being yourself. 371 00:21:19,516 --> 00:21:23,596 Speaker 3: So I was at our twenty nine of a call. 372 00:21:24,476 --> 00:21:26,916 Speaker 2: At this point, I had slept on literally two chairs 373 00:21:26,916 --> 00:21:29,516 Speaker 2: that I had put together, ketchup stained two chairs in 374 00:21:29,556 --> 00:21:31,876 Speaker 2: a call room. That was my brief fifteen minutes of 375 00:21:31,916 --> 00:21:34,396 Speaker 2: sleep overnight, and all I could think about I was like, 376 00:21:35,276 --> 00:21:37,156 Speaker 2: thank God, I made it to the end. 377 00:21:37,396 --> 00:21:38,316 Speaker 3: I want to go home. 378 00:21:39,156 --> 00:21:41,676 Speaker 2: And right before I was going to sign out, which 379 00:21:41,676 --> 00:21:45,356 Speaker 2: is when you transfer over care to another resident coming in, 380 00:21:46,276 --> 00:21:50,996 Speaker 2: they announced code like a code blue on the intercom, 381 00:21:51,156 --> 00:21:55,156 Speaker 2: which basically means patient either as pulseless, not breathing. 382 00:21:55,276 --> 00:21:59,036 Speaker 3: One of those and to remind. 383 00:21:58,676 --> 00:22:02,996 Speaker 2: You, like the kid Felicia right, who just yeah, it 384 00:22:03,076 --> 00:22:08,276 Speaker 2: felt like I had so much to give. Fast forwarding 385 00:22:08,356 --> 00:22:12,076 Speaker 2: to myself, it was like the first thought that went 386 00:22:12,116 --> 00:22:15,436 Speaker 2: through my mind, I'm so ashamed of this, was like, 387 00:22:16,876 --> 00:22:21,876 Speaker 2: why couldn't he have coded twenty minutes from now? And 388 00:22:21,956 --> 00:22:25,676 Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, I cannot believe that. 389 00:22:25,676 --> 00:22:29,076 Speaker 2: That is what I thought in that moment. And this 390 00:22:29,236 --> 00:22:32,316 Speaker 2: was a patient I deeply cared for, reminded me of 391 00:22:32,356 --> 00:22:36,316 Speaker 2: my own dad, And that's what came out of me. 392 00:22:37,276 --> 00:22:42,716 Speaker 2: I wasn't recognizing myself and when I got home, did 393 00:22:42,756 --> 00:22:43,596 Speaker 2: not sleep. 394 00:22:44,756 --> 00:22:47,476 Speaker 1: Walk me through your thought process at that point? How 395 00:22:47,516 --> 00:22:51,036 Speaker 1: were you thinking about whether to stay or whether to leave? 396 00:22:51,836 --> 00:22:52,156 Speaker 1: For me? 397 00:22:52,356 --> 00:22:56,116 Speaker 2: Like I needed a pro con list, Like I wrote 398 00:22:56,156 --> 00:23:00,436 Speaker 2: this whole thing out with my husband and essentially kind 399 00:23:00,436 --> 00:23:03,556 Speaker 2: of boiled it down like staying was for other people. 400 00:23:03,636 --> 00:23:03,796 Speaker 3: Right? 401 00:23:03,956 --> 00:23:06,676 Speaker 2: I had spent so much of my life dedicated to this. 402 00:23:06,916 --> 00:23:08,636 Speaker 2: Why would I give up one and a half years 403 00:23:08,636 --> 00:23:10,916 Speaker 2: from finishing Quitting wasn't in my vocabulary? 404 00:23:11,716 --> 00:23:13,636 Speaker 3: Was I disappointing my friends? My family? 405 00:23:13,716 --> 00:23:13,796 Speaker 2: Like? 406 00:23:13,836 --> 00:23:15,356 Speaker 3: What would everyone say? As much as. 407 00:23:15,236 --> 00:23:17,436 Speaker 2: I'd love to say that I don't care what people think, 408 00:23:17,756 --> 00:23:19,516 Speaker 2: I really care what people think. 409 00:23:19,876 --> 00:23:22,836 Speaker 3: Of course, we are annoying. I know, it's very annoying. 410 00:23:23,116 --> 00:23:26,716 Speaker 1: I got like a PhD in people pleasing girl, don't worry, Okay. 411 00:23:26,756 --> 00:23:30,476 Speaker 3: I also have that PhD. God, it's so annoying. My 412 00:23:30,596 --> 00:23:31,316 Speaker 3: co residence. 413 00:23:31,396 --> 00:23:34,556 Speaker 2: The response that I got from initially even saying I'm 414 00:23:34,596 --> 00:23:36,916 Speaker 2: considering it was like, oh my god, I can't do it. 415 00:23:37,516 --> 00:23:39,796 Speaker 2: I felt like a horrible human being. I even thought 416 00:23:39,796 --> 00:23:42,436 Speaker 2: like I should help my parents more by staying in 417 00:23:42,476 --> 00:23:45,076 Speaker 2: the system, seeing how I saved my dad's life, Like 418 00:23:45,076 --> 00:23:46,636 Speaker 2: by being in the system, why would I leave it? 419 00:23:47,796 --> 00:23:50,116 Speaker 2: There was an element for me where I was like, 420 00:23:50,196 --> 00:23:52,836 Speaker 2: we are in the midst of another COVID search, how 421 00:23:52,836 --> 00:23:56,516 Speaker 2: could I possibly think about leaving now? In terms of leaving, 422 00:23:56,796 --> 00:24:01,156 Speaker 2: my body was breaking down. I realized with a bit 423 00:24:01,196 --> 00:24:03,116 Speaker 2: more clarity that it had to do with my trauma 424 00:24:03,156 --> 00:24:05,836 Speaker 2: and my ability to recover. And at the end of 425 00:24:05,876 --> 00:24:08,396 Speaker 2: the day, like I realized that I was kind of 426 00:24:08,436 --> 00:24:10,756 Speaker 2: in a system that just like really. 427 00:24:12,076 --> 00:24:16,596 Speaker 3: Didn't let me be human. Yeah. 428 00:24:17,076 --> 00:24:19,716 Speaker 1: I think these sorts of stressors they can pound, and 429 00:24:19,756 --> 00:24:23,956 Speaker 1: they can prick your heart's memory, and they can resurface 430 00:24:23,996 --> 00:24:28,996 Speaker 1: old wounds that you felt you had effectively buried or 431 00:24:29,036 --> 00:24:33,996 Speaker 1: had resolved, And then you enter a deeply stressful environment 432 00:24:34,076 --> 00:24:39,076 Speaker 1: like this one, and you just have fewer cognitive resources 433 00:24:39,116 --> 00:24:42,356 Speaker 1: to keep some of that anxiety and whatever the trauma 434 00:24:42,396 --> 00:24:44,396 Speaker 1: responses are at arm's length. 435 00:24:44,596 --> 00:24:49,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, And as you're saying that, I'm realizing it was 436 00:24:49,316 --> 00:24:54,116 Speaker 2: like this spiral of shame around it because I had 437 00:24:54,156 --> 00:24:58,996 Speaker 2: done the work and I had overcome a lot of this, 438 00:24:59,076 --> 00:25:01,716 Speaker 2: I had unpacked all of this, and I was like, 439 00:25:01,796 --> 00:25:06,116 Speaker 2: why is this even coming up again? Because I've already like, 440 00:25:06,236 --> 00:25:07,556 Speaker 2: I've done the work. 441 00:25:08,676 --> 00:25:11,396 Speaker 1: This is such an important part of your story. 442 00:25:11,476 --> 00:25:11,916 Speaker 3: I just. 443 00:25:13,356 --> 00:25:15,196 Speaker 1: We try to do the work. We try to be 444 00:25:15,276 --> 00:25:18,316 Speaker 1: really good students when it comes to our mental health 445 00:25:18,356 --> 00:25:22,076 Speaker 1: and processing our past and getting the quote work done. 446 00:25:22,676 --> 00:25:25,756 Speaker 1: And then a big change comes our way and we're 447 00:25:25,836 --> 00:25:30,876 Speaker 1: thrust into a new reality that challenges us and makes 448 00:25:30,996 --> 00:25:35,036 Speaker 1: us feel like we are backtracking, or that we didn't 449 00:25:35,396 --> 00:25:40,156 Speaker 1: develop sufficient defenses, or that we never actually overcame our demons, 450 00:25:40,556 --> 00:25:44,916 Speaker 1: and it can feel so defeating in that moment to 451 00:25:44,996 --> 00:25:47,436 Speaker 1: have to carry that in addition to all the active 452 00:25:47,436 --> 00:25:50,716 Speaker 1: stressors that you're experiencing in your life. We can have 453 00:25:50,796 --> 00:25:54,356 Speaker 1: trauma in our past, and when a change resurfaces that 454 00:25:54,876 --> 00:25:57,956 Speaker 1: it doesn't just fill us with the anxiety and depression, 455 00:25:58,076 --> 00:26:00,876 Speaker 1: but exactly what you said, which is a feeling of shame, 456 00:26:01,876 --> 00:26:03,876 Speaker 1: like you didn't do a good enough job, and that's 457 00:26:03,956 --> 00:26:04,836 Speaker 1: just not accurate. 458 00:26:05,036 --> 00:26:06,996 Speaker 3: No, thank you. You're going to make me cry now. 459 00:26:07,636 --> 00:26:11,756 Speaker 2: It's just a mantra that I've always lived by was 460 00:26:11,796 --> 00:26:15,676 Speaker 2: that I overcome odds, right like I overcome things that 461 00:26:15,716 --> 00:26:17,996 Speaker 2: come my way and I figure it out and I 462 00:26:18,196 --> 00:26:21,036 Speaker 2: land on my two feet. And so this felt like 463 00:26:21,076 --> 00:26:24,876 Speaker 2: I was completely betraying who I was. I kept telling 464 00:26:24,876 --> 00:26:28,396 Speaker 2: myself if I quit, and I actually hate the word 465 00:26:28,476 --> 00:26:32,796 Speaker 2: quitting because it implies you're taking the easy way out. 466 00:26:33,036 --> 00:26:35,796 Speaker 2: And that was actually something my husband said when we 467 00:26:35,796 --> 00:26:38,276 Speaker 2: were talking on this pro con of whether to leave 468 00:26:38,356 --> 00:26:40,676 Speaker 2: or not. He was like, I noticed that you're using 469 00:26:40,676 --> 00:26:43,436 Speaker 2: the word quit, almost like you're giving up, and then 470 00:26:43,476 --> 00:26:45,756 Speaker 2: you're giving up to the trauma. You're giving up to this. 471 00:26:45,876 --> 00:26:48,716 Speaker 2: Your body wasn't good enough, You're not good enough. You're 472 00:26:48,796 --> 00:26:49,876 Speaker 2: letting everyone down. 473 00:26:50,076 --> 00:26:52,556 Speaker 1: Yes, you're blaming yourself, and. 474 00:26:53,236 --> 00:26:57,356 Speaker 2: It's actually the braver thing to think about leaving a 475 00:26:57,396 --> 00:27:00,316 Speaker 2: system that has such a tight hold on you. And 476 00:27:00,356 --> 00:27:04,356 Speaker 2: I think that shifted my mindset entirely where I was like, 477 00:27:04,436 --> 00:27:09,876 Speaker 2: wait a minute, actually leaving maybe the trying thing, the 478 00:27:09,956 --> 00:27:13,196 Speaker 2: brave thing to do. And I think it up until 479 00:27:13,196 --> 00:27:16,876 Speaker 2: that point, any decision that I was making, people always 480 00:27:16,876 --> 00:27:19,356 Speaker 2: showered you with this phrase that like I always hated. 481 00:27:19,796 --> 00:27:23,196 Speaker 3: But it was like, there's no wrong choice, you know. 482 00:27:23,316 --> 00:27:25,396 Speaker 2: Like, did you choose your class, There's no wrong choice. 483 00:27:25,436 --> 00:27:28,876 Speaker 2: Choose mescal, There's no wrong choice. And in this moment, 484 00:27:29,156 --> 00:27:32,316 Speaker 2: even contemplating the decision of leaving, why it was so 485 00:27:32,476 --> 00:27:37,676 Speaker 2: hard was it felt like I had no good choice right, 486 00:27:37,796 --> 00:27:40,196 Speaker 2: Like it felt like I felt backed into a corner 487 00:27:40,636 --> 00:27:43,996 Speaker 2: and either one was just bad. When I had on 488 00:27:44,076 --> 00:27:46,436 Speaker 2: my list like all the reasons to stay, one thing 489 00:27:46,476 --> 00:27:50,556 Speaker 2: I realized was all the reasons were for others, and 490 00:27:50,676 --> 00:27:52,356 Speaker 2: the reasons for leaving were for me. 491 00:27:53,996 --> 00:27:57,316 Speaker 1: So you told your supervisor? How did they respond and 492 00:27:57,356 --> 00:27:58,796 Speaker 1: how did your colleagues respond? 493 00:27:59,676 --> 00:28:00,476 Speaker 3: Not very well? 494 00:28:00,716 --> 00:28:05,476 Speaker 2: There was such an intense social pressure to stay. I mean, 495 00:28:05,556 --> 00:28:11,396 Speaker 2: it was ridiculous. I was actually shunned by co residents 496 00:28:11,836 --> 00:28:16,556 Speaker 2: who heard that I might be considering leaving, and it 497 00:28:16,676 --> 00:28:19,156 Speaker 2: made me feel like, oh my god, am I being 498 00:28:19,156 --> 00:28:23,076 Speaker 2: a horrible human being for quitting and leaving them with 499 00:28:23,156 --> 00:28:27,796 Speaker 2: this extra workload. Because medicine, unlike any other field. If 500 00:28:27,836 --> 00:28:30,876 Speaker 2: you leave, they don't just hire someone to replace you. 501 00:28:31,036 --> 00:28:34,516 Speaker 2: There was a very noticeable gap in the residency that 502 00:28:34,796 --> 00:28:38,396 Speaker 2: other people have to make up for. I lost friends. 503 00:28:38,916 --> 00:28:41,276 Speaker 2: It was really tough. The day that I had to 504 00:28:41,276 --> 00:28:42,956 Speaker 2: go turn in my badge. 505 00:28:43,476 --> 00:28:44,876 Speaker 3: I couldn't do it. 506 00:28:45,436 --> 00:28:48,596 Speaker 2: I had to ask my friend from my residency class 507 00:28:48,596 --> 00:28:51,716 Speaker 2: to do it for me. Like the thought of walking 508 00:28:51,756 --> 00:28:56,076 Speaker 2: into that hospital, possibly seeing some of these co residents 509 00:28:56,116 --> 00:28:59,716 Speaker 2: who were clearly just really mad at me, I just 510 00:28:59,796 --> 00:29:03,516 Speaker 2: I couldn't do it. The first few weeks after leaving, 511 00:29:03,756 --> 00:29:06,276 Speaker 2: I was just like, Oh my god, what have I done? 512 00:29:06,476 --> 00:29:09,756 Speaker 2: I felt so guilty. I almost went back. There was 513 00:29:09,796 --> 00:29:12,516 Speaker 2: another surge for COVID, and I was like, how could 514 00:29:12,516 --> 00:29:14,636 Speaker 2: I just be sitting here on the sidelines helpless. 515 00:29:14,636 --> 00:29:15,516 Speaker 3: I have to go back. 516 00:29:16,276 --> 00:29:21,196 Speaker 2: And it took my friends, my family, my husband reminding me, no, no, no, 517 00:29:21,236 --> 00:29:23,436 Speaker 2: you made the brave choice. This is the right choice 518 00:29:23,516 --> 00:29:27,356 Speaker 2: for you to prevent me from going back. My way 519 00:29:27,396 --> 00:29:29,476 Speaker 2: of coping is like I need to explain it. I 520 00:29:29,516 --> 00:29:32,196 Speaker 2: need to justify it. I need to rationalize it, I 521 00:29:32,236 --> 00:29:34,236 Speaker 2: need to intellectualize it. I need to literally think of 522 00:29:34,236 --> 00:29:36,836 Speaker 2: it in every single way I can. And so that's 523 00:29:36,876 --> 00:29:39,116 Speaker 2: how I process it. I was so bitter. I was like, 524 00:29:39,316 --> 00:29:41,236 Speaker 2: why did my dad have to get sick? Why did 525 00:29:41,316 --> 00:29:43,636 Speaker 2: there have to be COVID? Why did I have to 526 00:29:43,636 --> 00:29:47,076 Speaker 2: have trauma such that my body like can't cope. The 527 00:29:47,116 --> 00:29:49,396 Speaker 2: whole time, I was like why is it that I 528 00:29:49,516 --> 00:29:53,556 Speaker 2: have these limitations? Rather than thinking like, oh, these limitations 529 00:29:53,556 --> 00:29:55,516 Speaker 2: are just a part of who I am as a 530 00:29:55,516 --> 00:29:57,196 Speaker 2: result of my experiences. 531 00:29:57,756 --> 00:30:00,836 Speaker 1: I think society tells us that we must fight every demon, 532 00:30:00,956 --> 00:30:03,996 Speaker 1: we must overcome every weakness, we must do whatever it 533 00:30:04,036 --> 00:30:08,276 Speaker 1: takes to achieve every dream. And like another model is 534 00:30:08,316 --> 00:30:12,316 Speaker 1: to say, actually, no, it's okay to engage in radical acceptance, 535 00:30:12,436 --> 00:30:15,116 Speaker 1: like maybe there's nothing to keep fighting there, you know. 536 00:30:15,156 --> 00:30:18,716 Speaker 1: And I do think that that's not the narrative that's celebrated. 537 00:30:18,596 --> 00:30:19,516 Speaker 3: Even these days. 538 00:30:19,556 --> 00:30:21,396 Speaker 2: Like I need my husband to sometimes remind me of 539 00:30:21,436 --> 00:30:24,356 Speaker 2: that this is who you are, Like stop fighting it, 540 00:30:24,996 --> 00:30:27,396 Speaker 2: you know, like just love yourself for who you are. 541 00:30:27,476 --> 00:30:28,596 Speaker 3: Why is that so hard? 542 00:30:29,036 --> 00:30:31,076 Speaker 2: And it's like, but like why can't I just change 543 00:30:31,116 --> 00:30:33,756 Speaker 2: that one thing and like make it work? Because yeah, 544 00:30:34,196 --> 00:30:38,516 Speaker 2: I wish I could have been in a different state 545 00:30:39,916 --> 00:30:42,436 Speaker 2: that I could have pushed through like everyone else. 546 00:30:43,356 --> 00:30:46,796 Speaker 1: It's been four years since you quit. I'm going to 547 00:30:46,876 --> 00:30:48,796 Speaker 1: use the word quit because I want us to reclaim 548 00:30:48,916 --> 00:30:50,356 Speaker 1: quit as a positive word. 549 00:30:50,436 --> 00:30:51,076 Speaker 3: Okay, you can do that. 550 00:30:51,116 --> 00:30:53,716 Speaker 1: It's been four years since you quit being a doctor, 551 00:30:54,476 --> 00:30:58,156 Speaker 1: and these days your work involves researching and investing in 552 00:30:58,236 --> 00:31:01,996 Speaker 1: healthcare startups. I'm so curious to hear how you feel 553 00:31:01,996 --> 00:31:04,076 Speaker 1: your identity has shifted over time. 554 00:31:04,996 --> 00:31:08,716 Speaker 2: I mean, there was this moment, maybe a year or 555 00:31:08,796 --> 00:31:11,196 Speaker 2: so after I've left, I was on a hike with 556 00:31:11,236 --> 00:31:14,356 Speaker 2: my husband, and in those three hours, I came up 557 00:31:14,396 --> 00:31:17,396 Speaker 2: with a new fiction book idea, like a short story idea. 558 00:31:17,956 --> 00:31:20,236 Speaker 2: We came up with like two different startup ideas that 559 00:31:20,236 --> 00:31:21,676 Speaker 2: we were kind of just like hashing out and they 560 00:31:21,716 --> 00:31:24,036 Speaker 2: didn't work out, but like we did the exercise of like, oh. 561 00:31:23,916 --> 00:31:25,356 Speaker 3: And then what if this and what if that? 562 00:31:26,116 --> 00:31:27,956 Speaker 2: And I got in the car and I was like, 563 00:31:28,956 --> 00:31:31,996 Speaker 2: oh my god, I don't think we could have done 564 00:31:32,036 --> 00:31:36,156 Speaker 2: that a year ago, because I was so underwater that 565 00:31:36,676 --> 00:31:41,356 Speaker 2: this creative side of me was completely silenced and just 566 00:31:41,436 --> 00:31:46,596 Speaker 2: recognizing like I wasn't whole before, and now I actually 567 00:31:47,036 --> 00:31:49,556 Speaker 2: more whole in some ways because this other side of 568 00:31:49,556 --> 00:31:54,196 Speaker 2: me that I love can actually come out now. I've 569 00:31:54,236 --> 00:31:58,196 Speaker 2: had so many moments with my family. We started a family. 570 00:31:58,316 --> 00:32:02,236 Speaker 2: I had a beautiful baby girl, and right now I 571 00:32:02,316 --> 00:32:05,156 Speaker 2: am hanging on to the fact that she can't quite 572 00:32:05,196 --> 00:32:07,796 Speaker 2: walk on her own, but wants to walk everywhere, and 573 00:32:07,836 --> 00:32:11,436 Speaker 2: so she is holding my hand and like this feeling 574 00:32:11,476 --> 00:32:14,156 Speaker 2: those like little fingers wrap around your hands and like 575 00:32:14,476 --> 00:32:17,516 Speaker 2: walk you around. It's one of the best feelings. 576 00:32:17,636 --> 00:32:17,836 Speaker 3: You know. 577 00:32:18,076 --> 00:32:19,916 Speaker 2: There's so many things that I can do now that 578 00:32:19,996 --> 00:32:23,996 Speaker 2: I couldn't before and that I definitely wouldn't have imagined this. 579 00:32:44,556 --> 00:32:47,196 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you've had a 580 00:32:47,236 --> 00:32:49,396 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans in your own life, we'd love 581 00:32:49,436 --> 00:32:52,156 Speaker 1: to hear your story. You can reach us by email 582 00:32:52,276 --> 00:32:55,716 Speaker 1: at slight Change at pushkin dot fm. And if you 583 00:32:55,836 --> 00:32:58,676 Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode, please make sure to follow a Slight 584 00:32:58,756 --> 00:33:04,596 Speaker 1: Change of Plans wherever you listen to podcasts next time. 585 00:33:04,956 --> 00:33:07,956 Speaker 1: My friend and the former Surgeon General, the Vig Morphy, 586 00:33:08,356 --> 00:33:13,076 Speaker 1: returns to this for a conversation about connection, community and love. 587 00:33:13,836 --> 00:33:15,796 Speaker 4: Why are so many of the people that I meet 588 00:33:16,076 --> 00:33:19,676 Speaker 4: all across America and increasing across the world, why are 589 00:33:19,716 --> 00:33:22,916 Speaker 4: they so unhappy? So many people would say, I guess 590 00:33:22,916 --> 00:33:24,876 Speaker 4: this is just the way life is. Everyone's feeling this 591 00:33:24,916 --> 00:33:27,556 Speaker 4: way and I refuse to believe that because I don't 592 00:33:27,596 --> 00:33:29,716 Speaker 4: think that we are consigned to live a life of 593 00:33:29,756 --> 00:33:33,196 Speaker 4: emptiness where we're just unhappy because life is hard and 594 00:33:33,236 --> 00:33:36,236 Speaker 4: as a result unhappy. Life can be hard, and life 595 00:33:36,236 --> 00:33:38,716 Speaker 4: often is hard, but that doesn't mean that it has 596 00:33:38,756 --> 00:33:39,676 Speaker 4: to be unfulfilling. 597 00:33:41,196 --> 00:33:44,156 Speaker 1: That's next time on A Slight Change of Plans. See 598 00:33:44,156 --> 00:33:48,516 Speaker 1: you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written 599 00:33:48,596 --> 00:33:52,116 Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Changed 600 00:33:52,116 --> 00:33:56,236 Speaker 1: family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate 601 00:33:56,276 --> 00:34:00,836 Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan, our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Luvin, and 602 00:34:00,916 --> 00:34:05,196 Speaker 1: our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful 603 00:34:05,236 --> 00:34:08,556 Speaker 1: theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A 604 00:34:08,556 --> 00:34:11,756 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, 605 00:34:11,916 --> 00:34:14,876 Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a 606 00:34:15,076 --> 00:34:18,196 Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A 607 00:34:18,236 --> 00:34:21,476 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. 608 00:34:21,676 --> 00:34:22,476 Speaker 1: See you next week.