WEBVTT - #433 Jason Flom with Carl Miller

0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:06.239
<v Speaker 1>On October twenty fifth, nineteen seventy nine, Rabbi David Akanov

0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:08.960
<v Speaker 1>was walking with his prayer case in Crown Heights, Brooklyn,

0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:12.680
<v Speaker 1>when an assailant approached, described as a young black man

0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:17.119
<v Speaker 1>about five foot nine, one hundred and fifty pounds, he

0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:20.440
<v Speaker 1>shot the prominent rabbi, stole the prayer case, and ran

0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:24.800
<v Speaker 1>into an apartment building. Eventually, NYPD found a young man

0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:27.680
<v Speaker 1>named Daryl Brown, who gave several accounts alleging that a

0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:31.840
<v Speaker 1>local amateur broxer named Carl Miller had made some incriminating statements.

0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:35.919
<v Speaker 1>Karl had an open warrant for assault, was brought in

0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:40.600
<v Speaker 1>for a lineup, but the eyewitnesses didn't identify him. After

0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.360
<v Speaker 1>he was processed for the previous assault charge and released,

0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:46.839
<v Speaker 1>Carl approached Daryl Brown in the street, but Brown was

0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:50.440
<v Speaker 1>not deterred. At trial, Brown testified that he had seen

0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:53.720
<v Speaker 1>the whole thing from start to finish, so the prosecutor

0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:56.800
<v Speaker 1>no longer needed the other eyewitnesses who did not identify

0:00:56.880 --> 0:01:12.240
<v Speaker 1>Karl in the lineup. But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome

0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:14.440
<v Speaker 1>back to wrongful conviction, where we have a story born

0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:17.200
<v Speaker 1>out of racial and religious tension in New York City

0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.240
<v Speaker 1>that existed certainly before the crime came in the late seventies,

0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:23.560
<v Speaker 1>but also through the nineties and even today in Crown Heights, Brooklyn,

0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:26.560
<v Speaker 1>between the Black and Ascidic communities.

0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:26.560
<v Speaker 2>That live there.

0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:29.759
<v Speaker 1>But before we get into how that relates to this

0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:32.920
<v Speaker 1>story and the man who lived at Carl Miller, I'd

0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:35.400
<v Speaker 1>like to welcome back one of his attorneys, James Henning,

0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:36.240
<v Speaker 1>to our show.

0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:37.880
<v Speaker 3>Pleasure to be back, Jason.

0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:40.560
<v Speaker 1>And this time you brought along another attorney who played

0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:42.840
<v Speaker 1>a major role in this case, Carissa Cokin.

0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:44.000
<v Speaker 4>Welcome, thank you.

0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:47.720
<v Speaker 1>And now i'd like to introduce the man himself, Carl Miller.

0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:51.000
<v Speaker 1>And as we record this right now, October twenty fifth,

0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:53.720
<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty three, it's not only his birthday, but also

0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:57.559
<v Speaker 1>the forty fourth anniversary of the crime at the center

0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:02.320
<v Speaker 1>of his wrongful conviction. So Carl, I'm sure that colors

0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:05.000
<v Speaker 1>how you see this day, but we hope that this

0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:07.920
<v Speaker 1>one is a happy birthday, and thank you for choosing

0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:10.440
<v Speaker 1>to spend some of it here with us.

0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:11.400
<v Speaker 2>And you're welcome.

0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:13.960
<v Speaker 1>Now, Carl, can you tell us a little bit about

0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:14.640
<v Speaker 1>your childhood.

0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.840
<v Speaker 5>I grew up in Crown Heights with my family. I

0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.880
<v Speaker 5>went to public school to twenty one. From there went

0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:25.080
<v Speaker 5>to James D. Lawrence, which is a six hundred school.

0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:28.240
<v Speaker 5>My mother and my father moved out, and I just

0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:30.720
<v Speaker 5>hung around with some of the guys that I was

0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:31.560
<v Speaker 5>associated with.

0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:34.440
<v Speaker 3>Carl did not have his parents around for a while.

0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:37.440
<v Speaker 3>He was expected to go out and handle his own business.

0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:40.359
<v Speaker 1>And you were married, and you were a young father

0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:41.200
<v Speaker 1>at the time.

0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:43.080
<v Speaker 2>That wasn't married at the time, but I was a

0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:43.720
<v Speaker 2>young father.

0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:46.120
<v Speaker 1>I understand you were an amateur boxer.

0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:47.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:50.880
<v Speaker 5>I did box for Izzyzerland Youth and Recreation Center and

0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:53.680
<v Speaker 5>Crown Heights, and I had a little reputation in the

0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:56.359
<v Speaker 5>neighborhood as somebody that you didn't want to mess.

0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:59.560
<v Speaker 3>With, and I think that, unfortunately worked against him when

0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:01.280
<v Speaker 3>he was wrongfully accused.

0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:04.040
<v Speaker 1>In the months leading up to the murdering question, Carl

0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:05.840
<v Speaker 1>had been in a fight in which he was stabbed

0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:09.480
<v Speaker 1>with a screwdriver and hospitalized with a collapse lung, resulting

0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.880
<v Speaker 1>in an open arrestaurant for assault, which seems wrong for

0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:16.320
<v Speaker 1>someone defending themselves against deadly force, but that kind of

0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:19.760
<v Speaker 1>unfair application of the law was nothing new to Carl.

0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.440
<v Speaker 5>I did have a confrontation with the seventy first precinct

0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:26.320
<v Speaker 5>because they used to come around and get guys to

0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.000
<v Speaker 5>go in for lineups, and I started telling them, don't

0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:32.200
<v Speaker 5>do that because you getting paid five dollars for a lineup,

0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:35.200
<v Speaker 5>but in not giving you back the picture. So this

0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:37.680
<v Speaker 5>is my way of like trying to keep them out

0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:39.040
<v Speaker 5>of the police way.

0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:43.000
<v Speaker 1>Which is solid advice. We've seen misidentifications start just that

0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:45.880
<v Speaker 1>way in so many wrongful conviction cases. So as a

0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:49.680
<v Speaker 1>young man, Carl had already witnessed injustices to give him

0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:53.480
<v Speaker 1>that perspective. While in contrast, there appeared to be preferential

0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:55.760
<v Speaker 1>treatment for the Hasidic community and Crown Heights.

0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:58.040
<v Speaker 3>It's a strong voting bocke. It's like you're not going

0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:00.480
<v Speaker 3>to get elected mayor if you don't have the Hasiatic

0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.840
<v Speaker 3>community because they will vote in droves for the candidate

0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:05.760
<v Speaker 3>that the rebbe tells them to vote for.

0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:09.000
<v Speaker 1>The Hasidic community before and after World War Two settled

0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:11.320
<v Speaker 1>in Crown Heights, which had been anointed by the leaders

0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:14.480
<v Speaker 1>of what is known as the HBBAD or Hobbad Lubovich movement,

0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:17.719
<v Speaker 1>many of whom had escaped persecution either at the hands

0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:20.640
<v Speaker 1>of the Germans or those in the Soviet block before

0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:23.640
<v Speaker 1>and after World War Two. Curiously, the city allowed one

0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.440
<v Speaker 1>of its most powerful voting blocks to operate their own

0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:29.880
<v Speaker 1>police force, the Jewish Defense League or JDL.

0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:34.799
<v Speaker 3>The hard charge behind that JDL philosophy was never again,

0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:37.720
<v Speaker 3>get yourself a gun, don't rely on the cops. People

0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:40.400
<v Speaker 3>lived in an era where the cops were hurting you

0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:45.640
<v Speaker 3>onto the trains to auschwitzenbergen Belsen and Triblinka and whatnot.

0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:49.599
<v Speaker 3>It's that Merkan slogan, never again, We're not going to

0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.599
<v Speaker 3>be vulnerable. Imagine any other group in New York City

0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.480
<v Speaker 3>having their own police force. There are two very distinct

0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:59.359
<v Speaker 3>worlds there in the Crown Heights area. One that is

0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:03.400
<v Speaker 3>set up with their own ambulance and emergency systems, and

0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:07.040
<v Speaker 3>they've had a number of issues going up until recent

0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:09.599
<v Speaker 3>days with those two communities bordering on each other.

0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:11.599
<v Speaker 5>One of the one that really stands out is the

0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.200
<v Speaker 5>Crown Heights riot. But as I will say to people,

0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:17.000
<v Speaker 5>prior to Crown Heights riots, you had like Victor Road,

0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:19.640
<v Speaker 5>he was a guy that was a cost about the JDL,

0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:20.480
<v Speaker 5>And of.

0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:24.239
<v Speaker 1>Course you're talking about the awful incident on June sixteenth,

0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:28.880
<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventy eight, when approximately twenty Assitic men beat a

0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:31.480
<v Speaker 1>sixteen year old kid named Victor Roads into a coma

0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:35.600
<v Speaker 1>that lasted for two months. And so obviously the tension

0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:37.680
<v Speaker 1>was high in the area.

0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:39.560
<v Speaker 5>So it was always tension, but it wasn't the con

0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.039
<v Speaker 5>at tension that the Crown Heights riot had bought.

0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:45.800
<v Speaker 1>The Crown Heights riot took place in August nineteen ninety

0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:48.640
<v Speaker 1>one when a young Hasidic man drove through a red light,

0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:52.160
<v Speaker 1>peered off the road to avoid now oncoming traffic, and

0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.000
<v Speaker 1>pinned two seven year old Black children under his car,

0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:59.960
<v Speaker 1>one of whom Gavin Cato, was killed, signetic a race riot.

0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.920
<v Speaker 3>The story at the scene was the Shibata ambulance showed

0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:09.760
<v Speaker 3>up and went straight for the Hasidam while kids underneath

0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:11.440
<v Speaker 3>the car and they're trying to lift it up.

0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:15.279
<v Speaker 1>The tension that was building for decades exploded. Jewish people

0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.279
<v Speaker 1>and their businesses were attacked, and the violence played heavily

0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:21.480
<v Speaker 1>into the nineteen ninety three mayoral election of Rudy Giuliani,

0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:26.000
<v Speaker 1>who unseated New York City's first African American mayor, David Dinkins.

0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.520
<v Speaker 1>The unrest in Crown Heights was Palpable in nineteen ninety three,

0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:32.680
<v Speaker 1>and was certainly present when Victor Rhodes was attacked in

0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:35.320
<v Speaker 1>June of seventy eight, as well as when Rabbi David

0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.120
<v Speaker 1>Akanov was murdered in October seventy nine.

0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:42.600
<v Speaker 3>Rabbi David Akanov, the victim in this case, was in

0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.720
<v Speaker 3>his late sixties. He had been born in Ukraine in

0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:51.360
<v Speaker 3>nineteen eleven studied the Torah under Communist rule there. Actually,

0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:54.159
<v Speaker 3>after his bar Mitzvah, he wanted to continue studying, but

0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:55.600
<v Speaker 3>his parents wouldn't let him, so he went on a

0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:58.599
<v Speaker 3>hunger strike until they gave up and led him. He

0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:02.880
<v Speaker 3>ended up emigrating to the US after learning that the

0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:07.440
<v Speaker 3>KGB was looking into him, and he made efforts in

0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:10.440
<v Speaker 3>the Crown Heights community to help other Jews who were

0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:14.520
<v Speaker 3>living under oppression in Russia. So Rabbi Akanov was, by

0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.600
<v Speaker 3>all accounts, a very pious and charitable man. He was

0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.320
<v Speaker 3>not somebody who seemed to deal with a lot of trappings.

0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.320
<v Speaker 3>But he did have a regular prayer case that he

0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:27.160
<v Speaker 3>would bring with him to pray, and it contained and

0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:29.800
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to butcher this terminology, his talus and his

0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:34.320
<v Speaker 3>tapillon which are religious implements used by Lubovich has Seed him.

0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:38.480
<v Speaker 3>So just before seven am on October twenty fifth, nineteen

0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.680
<v Speaker 3>seventy nine, he's on his way to yeshiva when he shot.

0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:45.400
<v Speaker 4>This was a very high profile case. We've got a

0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:47.280
<v Speaker 4>very prominent rabbi.

0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:50.760
<v Speaker 6>In the community who was shot with a thirty two

0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:55.120
<v Speaker 6>caliber point blank in the face. There were two eyewitnesses

0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:56.760
<v Speaker 6>to this shooting.

0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.840
<v Speaker 3>Both of the eyewitnesses Louis Fazio, who was not a

0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.920
<v Speaker 3>member of the seed Of community, and sixteen year old

0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.880
<v Speaker 3>Sinaya Sperlin, who was. It's pretty evident that they saw

0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:09.680
<v Speaker 3>the same person running from the scene with Rabbi Akinov's

0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:10.320
<v Speaker 3>prayer case.

0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:14.960
<v Speaker 1>Now, the descriptions were actually remarkably similar from the two witnesses.

0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:19.760
<v Speaker 1>A man who was black, twenty one years old, ish right,

0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:22.600
<v Speaker 1>about five nine, one hundred and fifty pounds, medium built,

0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:26.640
<v Speaker 1>medium hair, possibly wearing a hat and a dark jacket. Carl,

0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.480
<v Speaker 1>does that description match you or did it match you

0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:30.000
<v Speaker 1>at that time?

0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.679
<v Speaker 5>At that time, I was probaby a five one hundred

0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:36.120
<v Speaker 5>and eighty pounds, weigh a little afro and wear too

0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:40.400
<v Speaker 5>many hats, very athletic, not slim, as they had described

0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:42.160
<v Speaker 5>this person as being a slender person.

0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:42.960
<v Speaker 2>That's not me.

0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:45.920
<v Speaker 1>They're talking about a guy who's five nine one fifty.

0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:49.360
<v Speaker 1>You're about six feet tall, right, Yeah, there's a significant difference.

0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:51.520
<v Speaker 1>You were a boxer, right, so with a class of boxing.

0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:55.240
<v Speaker 5>I was in a light heavy, light heavyweight, light heavyweight.

0:08:55.720 --> 0:09:01.640
<v Speaker 1>So the descriptions didn't match. What about alibis and things

0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:02.040
<v Speaker 1>like that.

0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:05.600
<v Speaker 5>I was in Queens, New York, celebrating my birthday with

0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.120
<v Speaker 5>my daughter's mother at the time, and I left her

0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:11.520
<v Speaker 5>house came back to Brooklyn, and that's when I learned

0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:13.240
<v Speaker 5>about the rabbi being murdered.

0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:15.920
<v Speaker 1>Carl had spent the night in Queens, and even after

0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:19.480
<v Speaker 1>lies and coercion, his daughter's mother, Joanne Davis, maintained that

0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.920
<v Speaker 1>he was there that morning and not in Crown Heights

0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:25.320
<v Speaker 1>at seven am, murdering Rabbi Akanoff and running off with

0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:27.600
<v Speaker 1>his prayer case into the apartment building at five point

0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:29.040
<v Speaker 1>sixty five Crown Street.

0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:33.800
<v Speaker 6>And that is where they end up finding a suitcase

0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:38.200
<v Speaker 6>that belonged to an individual named Darryl Brown.

0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:42.040
<v Speaker 3>Rabbi Akonov's prayer case is never found, and in an

0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.760
<v Speaker 3>abandoned apartment they find this suitcase belonging to Darryl Brown

0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:49.200
<v Speaker 3>with his property in there, and two days later he

0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:51.400
<v Speaker 3>shows up at the precinct because he heard that they

0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:52.360
<v Speaker 3>were looking for them.

0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:56.560
<v Speaker 4>Daryl Brown essentially ends up being the only person to

0:09:56.760 --> 0:09:59.280
<v Speaker 4>ever implicate Carl Beller in this crime.

0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:02.640
<v Speaker 1>Right, you sure Lock Holmes to figure out that a

0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:04.120
<v Speaker 1>misdirection play there.

0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:07.200
<v Speaker 3>Right, You've also got the fact that Darryl Brown is

0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:11.920
<v Speaker 3>repeatedly lying to them. His statements evolve. His initial statement

0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.320
<v Speaker 3>indicates that he didn't see anything.

0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:16.240
<v Speaker 1>And then they received a second statement from Daryl Brown

0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:18.679
<v Speaker 1>on November eight, nineteen seventy nine, while he was being

0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.720
<v Speaker 1>treated at King's County Hospital for a gunshot wound to

0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:24.480
<v Speaker 1>the hand. They never investigate the cause of the wound.

0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:27.440
<v Speaker 3>When they come back to him, presumably with the ability

0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:30.000
<v Speaker 3>to turn the screws a little bit, when he's in

0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:32.760
<v Speaker 3>the hospital with the gunshot wound, he now says that

0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:36.160
<v Speaker 3>he and two other friends had seen a Jewish man

0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:40.680
<v Speaker 3>with some money in a pizza falafel store and Carl

0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:43.720
<v Speaker 3>supposedly said, oh, you should have ripped him off, and

0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:46.439
<v Speaker 3>that he had heard the shot and saw Carl near

0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:47.120
<v Speaker 3>the scene.

0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.360
<v Speaker 1>Carl has always maintained if he was not present either

0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.120
<v Speaker 1>for the murder or that day in the store. We

0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:56.480
<v Speaker 1>only find out who that actually was much later then.

0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:00.800
<v Speaker 3>Darryl Brown in his third documented statement and his first

0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:03.959
<v Speaker 3>sworn statement the next day on November ninth, he says

0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:06.240
<v Speaker 3>that he had seen Carl near the scene and he

0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:09.160
<v Speaker 3>tried to get into five point sixty five Crown where

0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:11.600
<v Speaker 3>I was staying. I've seen him with a thirty two

0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:14.320
<v Speaker 3>and I spoke to him the day before the crime

0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:17.800
<v Speaker 3>about a jew with money in a blue bag. And

0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:20.360
<v Speaker 3>that's a quote which is important because it departs from

0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:21.520
<v Speaker 3>his testimony at trial.

0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:25.000
<v Speaker 1>On the strength of Dwell Brown's ever shifting word, Carl

0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.240
<v Speaker 1>was eventually charged with the murder. However, with his open

0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:31.720
<v Speaker 1>arrest warrant for assault, his reputation as a neighborhood tough guy,

0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:35.360
<v Speaker 1>and previous interactions with the seventy first Precinct, they came

0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:38.839
<v Speaker 1>looking for him way before Brown had ever made any statements.

0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:43.320
<v Speaker 1>Just a few days after the rabbi's murder in late October.

0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:45.480
<v Speaker 5>My sister tell me that the police was looking for

0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:47.840
<v Speaker 5>me to talk to me, and I called him, said,

0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:49.679
<v Speaker 5>what are you looking me for? Oh, we want to

0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:51.840
<v Speaker 5>talk to you about the homicide. Come to the precinct.

0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:53.600
<v Speaker 5>I'm like, nah, we can talk about not come to

0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:55.400
<v Speaker 5>the precinct. I didn't go because I made he was

0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:57.120
<v Speaker 5>going to arrest me, so I had an open case.

0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.719
<v Speaker 3>I had a warrant, which is completely within his rights.

0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.680
<v Speaker 5>And I think it was November fourteenth. They picked me

0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.280
<v Speaker 5>up at my house, took me to the sixty ninth precinct,

0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.360
<v Speaker 5>questioned me about the homicide, but they arrested me for

0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:08.920
<v Speaker 5>my warrant.

0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:13.360
<v Speaker 3>When Carl does get brought to the precinct, he offers

0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:18.520
<v Speaker 3>to take a polygraph and provide his fingerprints, and police

0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:20.920
<v Speaker 3>don't take his prince, but they do take a polygraph,

0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:24.760
<v Speaker 3>which they claim Carl failed. He then stands in two

0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:28.280
<v Speaker 3>lineups without council and is viewed by Shanina Sperlin and

0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:32.800
<v Speaker 3>Louis Fazio, the two undisputed eyewitnesses, neither of whom identify him.

0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:34.280
<v Speaker 2>I was held on the warrant.

0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:37.520
<v Speaker 5>They took me to Rockets Island, came back out and

0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:40.600
<v Speaker 5>walking around the street and people was telling me that

0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.640
<v Speaker 5>this guy Brown was talking about me with the police,

0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.040
<v Speaker 5>and I had a confrontation with him when I was accident.

0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:47.920
<v Speaker 5>Why are you telling um talking to the police about

0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:50.240
<v Speaker 5>me about this case? Oh, they want me to say

0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:52.959
<v Speaker 5>and I'm not gonna say nothing. I was just telling

0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:54.719
<v Speaker 5>him leave my name out of it, because I had

0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:56.360
<v Speaker 5>nothing to do with that at all.

0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:59.120
<v Speaker 2>This was around probably right after Thanksgiving.

0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.559
<v Speaker 3>Daryl Brown on November twenty ninth is given a polygraph

0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:06.160
<v Speaker 3>quote to test out his earlier statement end quote to

0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:11.199
<v Speaker 3>the prosecutor and according to the police, Brown's polygraph shows

0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:14.320
<v Speaker 3>that he was telling the truth about everything, but there

0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.200
<v Speaker 3>was some question about his withholding evidence from the police.

0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:20.440
<v Speaker 3>Now think about that statement, because we know number one,

0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:24.360
<v Speaker 3>polygraphs aren't this nuance? Now they weren't this nuance? Then

0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:26.319
<v Speaker 3>this was a tool for coercion.

0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:31.200
<v Speaker 1>It usually is. Polygraphs aren't even admissible in court. And

0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:35.079
<v Speaker 1>I need our audience to remember that police are allowed

0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:38.400
<v Speaker 1>to lie to you about evidence, and they routinely lie

0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:42.080
<v Speaker 1>about polygraph results in order to coerce confessions.

0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:44.720
<v Speaker 5>When they arrested me on the fourteenth and I volunteered

0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:47.360
<v Speaker 5>for the lineup, the guy has said that, oh, you

0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:49.720
<v Speaker 5>was picked out in Alno, which we come to learn

0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:52.520
<v Speaker 5>that was not true, that I was never identified in Lano.

0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:55.920
<v Speaker 5>After I take the polygraph test, they said, oh, you fail,

0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:59.120
<v Speaker 5>So I'm like, okay, I mean I watched Perry Mason

0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:01.200
<v Speaker 5>when I was a kid. So if I failed a

0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:03.120
<v Speaker 5>lot to take the test and I was picked down

0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:05.080
<v Speaker 5>on the lineup, what more evidence do you need to

0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:08.240
<v Speaker 5>arrest me? But I wasn't arrested. I was arrested in

0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:10.640
<v Speaker 5>November thirtieth for this case.

0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:15.360
<v Speaker 3>After Daryl Brown gives that polygraph statement where according to

0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:19.280
<v Speaker 3>the police, he was truthful about everything. On the thirtieth

0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.040
<v Speaker 3>they put Daryl Brown in lineups. But what are you

0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:25.080
<v Speaker 3>putting somebody in lineups for if they've told the truth

0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:27.560
<v Speaker 3>about everything implicating another individual.

0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.360
<v Speaker 1>That's a good question. If I'm following this correctly, then

0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:34.360
<v Speaker 1>they must have suspected that he might have been the guy, right.

0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:38.840
<v Speaker 3>It doesn't make sense to conclude otherwise. Either he's telling

0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:42.400
<v Speaker 3>the truth about everything when he implicates Carl, and okay,

0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:46.560
<v Speaker 3>authorize the arrest. Certainly, there's no basis the next day

0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:49.960
<v Speaker 3>to put Darryl Brown in lineups unless you're saying maybe

0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:52.920
<v Speaker 3>he's still not telling the truth about everything, and instead

0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.600
<v Speaker 3>what they do is revert to tunnel vision and authorize

0:14:56.600 --> 0:15:01.320
<v Speaker 3>and arrest for Karl based entirely. This is disputed entirely

0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:06.200
<v Speaker 3>on the accusation of Daryl Brown, his second differing sworn statement,

0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:10.560
<v Speaker 3>his fourth or fifth differing documented statement since the murder.

0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:15.800
<v Speaker 3>It's just a travesty.

0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:26.040
<v Speaker 1>Freedom Agenda is a proud sponsor of this episode of

0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:30.200
<v Speaker 1>Wrongful Conviction. Freedom Agenda is led by people directly impacted

0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:33.680
<v Speaker 1>by incarceration, and they're organizing to get Mayor Eric Adams

0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:37.120
<v Speaker 1>to follow the law and shut down Rikers Island. Right now,

0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:41.119
<v Speaker 1>thousands of people are awaiting trial there in life threatening conditions.

0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.880
<v Speaker 1>Freedom Agenda is committed to creating a safer and more

0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:49.080
<v Speaker 1>just city by winning investments in long neglected communities, protecting

0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:51.480
<v Speaker 1>the rights of people involved in the criminal legal system,

0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:55.280
<v Speaker 1>and ending the cycle of violence that Rikers perpetuates. To

0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:57.640
<v Speaker 1>learn more about the campaign to Close Rikers and to

0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:00.800
<v Speaker 1>sign up for Freedom Agenda's mailing list to Campaign to

0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.560
<v Speaker 1>Close Rankers dot org, slash, get involved or followed a

0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:07.520
<v Speaker 1>Freedom Agenda and why on social media.

0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:16.080
<v Speaker 5>When you coming off the street, you know you gotta

0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:19.440
<v Speaker 5>fight within Rockets Island because that's how it was. So

0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.760
<v Speaker 5>it can be really alled on the person that if

0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:24.680
<v Speaker 5>you're not really up to it, and I was the

0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:26.840
<v Speaker 5>type of person that I could defend myself, so I

0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.880
<v Speaker 5>had no problem like that. You just waiting to go

0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:31.600
<v Speaker 5>to trial and prove my innocence.

0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:35.400
<v Speaker 1>So nine months later, September eighth, nineteen eighty, you go

0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:38.600
<v Speaker 1>to trial. I'm assuming you were represented by a public defender.

0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:41.600
<v Speaker 5>Yes, I was rep presented by how it listwise, the

0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:44.920
<v Speaker 5>guy come in tell me, oh, I never lost a

0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:45.640
<v Speaker 5>murder case.

0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:48.400
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know you didn't have one until you had minds.

0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:52.760
<v Speaker 3>There were some very serious discovery issues here, whether you

0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:55.320
<v Speaker 3>want to blame it on trial council or whether you

0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:59.120
<v Speaker 3>want to blame it on the prosecution. But two things

0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:03.000
<v Speaker 3>that we now know happened just prior to trial. There's

0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:05.920
<v Speaker 3>no indication that Carl knew at the time of trial.

0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:09.920
<v Speaker 3>It's that Shanina Sperlin shows up at the Brooklyn DIA's

0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:15.040
<v Speaker 3>office and tells Ada Barbara Newman, the trial prosecutor, that

0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:19.400
<v Speaker 3>he recognized a possible perpetrator in one of the lineups

0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.880
<v Speaker 3>he viewed. But it's not the Carl Miller lineup. It's

0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:26.560
<v Speaker 3>the Darryl Brown lineup. The other thing that is potentially

0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:30.520
<v Speaker 3>but we're not certain, disclosed on August twenty eighth, nineteen eighty,

0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.480
<v Speaker 3>about a week or so before Carl's trial starts, is

0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:37.400
<v Speaker 3>that Ada Newman discloses that an individual named Barry Lee

0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:41.879
<v Speaker 3>Jackson had been identified from photographs on or before October

0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:45.240
<v Speaker 3>twenty seventh, nineteen seventy nine, which is just two days

0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.680
<v Speaker 3>after the murder, and in writing whether this was received

0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:51.520
<v Speaker 3>by mister weiss Wesser or not, or whether it was

0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.240
<v Speaker 3>taken as legitimate or not, she tells him that if

0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:58.840
<v Speaker 3>he lacked any further discovery, he should tell her so

0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.280
<v Speaker 3>she could provide it. Now, that's kind of a catch

0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:04.160
<v Speaker 3>twenty two, and it's not how discovery works. He can't

0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:06.720
<v Speaker 3>tell her if he's lacking something that he doesn't know about.

0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:09.879
<v Speaker 3>And you're now on the eve of trial.

0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:15.640
<v Speaker 1>There were several other important Brady violations, including more alternate

0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:18.720
<v Speaker 1>suspects like a man named Derek Peterson, as well as

0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.480
<v Speaker 1>a guy named Willie Easterling who had been seen trying

0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:25.200
<v Speaker 1>to sell religious artifacts in the area. Police reports did

0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:28.800
<v Speaker 1>not demonstrate any follow up and were not shared with

0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.159
<v Speaker 1>the defense either, and this conduct was only compounded by

0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:35.720
<v Speaker 1>presenting the ever changing testimony of Daryl Brown, this time

0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.399
<v Speaker 1>at trial He said that he followed Carl that morning,

0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.879
<v Speaker 1>saw him grab Achanoff, who screamed before he was shot,

0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:44.720
<v Speaker 1>then saw him run off to five sixty five Crown

0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:47.720
<v Speaker 1>Street with the prayer case, and Carl's attorney did lean

0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:51.119
<v Speaker 1>heavily on the inconsistencies between Brown's version of events and

0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:53.960
<v Speaker 1>undisputed facts of the crime, as well as how Brown's

0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:57.000
<v Speaker 1>testimony may have resulted from pressure from investigators.

0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:02.080
<v Speaker 3>Detective Sorrentino, who's the assigned detective here, testifies that he

0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:05.760
<v Speaker 3>never told Darryl Brown he was a suspect, which, as

0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:09.600
<v Speaker 3>we noted earlier, if after the fact of him giving

0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.640
<v Speaker 3>you a completely truthful statement, you're placing him in lineups,

0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:14.680
<v Speaker 3>there's only one reason to play somebody in a lineup

0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:19.400
<v Speaker 3>as the subject. Second, the court prohibited Carl's council from

0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:24.280
<v Speaker 3>questioning Detective Sorrentino about whether he had ever put psychological

0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:27.359
<v Speaker 3>pressure on a suspect. And there's one more thing. Darryl

0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:32.959
<v Speaker 3>Brown's account of Rabbi Akanov's suitcase is not accurate. His

0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:38.480
<v Speaker 3>prayer bag was a distinctive dark blue color, and in

0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:43.560
<v Speaker 3>the early unrecorded police statement that Daryl Brown gives describing

0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:46.360
<v Speaker 3>this bag, it is a dark blue bag, but by

0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:48.760
<v Speaker 3>the time he gets a trial, it's a clear bag

0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:52.920
<v Speaker 3>that he can see into and actually tell the type

0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:58.399
<v Speaker 3>of felt material inside, and more concerning it indicates to

0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:03.120
<v Speaker 3>me one of two possible conclusions. One Daryl Brown saw

0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:06.320
<v Speaker 3>inside that bag or touched it. Two Daryl Brown was

0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:10.720
<v Speaker 3>told how that bag looked after he gave independent statements.

0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:14.760
<v Speaker 3>Neither of them tend to support the reliability of the

0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:15.840
<v Speaker 3>verdict in this case.

0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:20.159
<v Speaker 1>Darryl Brown also testified that Rabbi Achanov made no attempt

0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:22.880
<v Speaker 1>to block the bullet with his hand, which was contradicted

0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:26.320
<v Speaker 1>by the state's forensic pathologist, citing the black powder stain

0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:28.639
<v Speaker 1>and stippling on the back of the rabbi's hand. So,

0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.919
<v Speaker 1>while the defense seated doubt about the state's witness, the

0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:36.320
<v Speaker 1>state attacked Carl's alibi witness, his daughter's mother, Joanne Davis.

0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:40.400
<v Speaker 6>From everything in the transcript, everything on the record, all

0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:43.720
<v Speaker 6>the materials we have, the only indication we can really

0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:47.480
<v Speaker 6>come to is that Carl's alibi witness was really just

0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:51.240
<v Speaker 6>spoken to in order to try and get impeachment material

0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:51.840
<v Speaker 6>for her.

0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:53.480
<v Speaker 4>And you know something.

0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:56.000
<v Speaker 6>Else that we see as well too, is that false

0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:59.879
<v Speaker 6>statements are attributed to Carl's alibi witness, which is some

0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:04.000
<v Speaker 6>thing that we very frequently see in these cases as well.

0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:08.600
<v Speaker 6>You have unendorsed statements, you have unsigned statements. Then at

0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:11.840
<v Speaker 6>trial it's the detective's word against the witnesses word.

0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:15.520
<v Speaker 1>In this case, the lead detective Sorrentino, testified that Miss

0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:18.400
<v Speaker 1>Davis said that she saw Karl with the thirty two

0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:21.720
<v Speaker 1>caliber pistol, the kind of gun used to kill Achanov,

0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:24.840
<v Speaker 1>even though Miss Davis denied ever saying that, but rather

0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:27.960
<v Speaker 1>that she'd only seen him with a toy gun. In addition,

0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:31.399
<v Speaker 1>Sorrentino testified that Miss Davis's mother had said that Carl

0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:33.760
<v Speaker 1>was not at her home the morning of the murder.

0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:38.200
<v Speaker 3>To the credit of Joanne Davis, she's actually asked under

0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:41.840
<v Speaker 3>oath if her mother is stupid. She's told that Carl

0:21:41.880 --> 0:21:44.920
<v Speaker 3>supposedly failed to polygraph, She's told that he may never

0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:47.480
<v Speaker 3>come home, and she doesn't change her account.

0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:52.520
<v Speaker 1>The state referred to Miss Davis's story as concocted, and

0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:55.600
<v Speaker 1>they told the jury to quote wonder about the sense

0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:58.600
<v Speaker 1>of someone who gave birth at seventeen.

0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:02.840
<v Speaker 6>Wooh credit ability was unborn to being attacked by the

0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:04.159
<v Speaker 6>police and prosecutors.

0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:06.560
<v Speaker 1>The state made note that the main issue of the

0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:09.320
<v Speaker 1>case was whether Daryl Brown had seen the shooting, calling

0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:13.840
<v Speaker 1>the actual eyewitnesses nothing more than quote distractions unquote, and

0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:17.840
<v Speaker 1>that eyewitness Louis Fazzio quote didn't add anything to the

0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:21.000
<v Speaker 1>case unquote. They had to take this tact after all,

0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:22.879
<v Speaker 1>because Fazio was no help to them.

0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:28.320
<v Speaker 6>Fazio was initially subpoenaed by the people, right, So he

0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:32.919
<v Speaker 6>gets into the courtroom and he tells his wife that

0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:36.080
<v Speaker 6>Carl is too broad to have been the man that

0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:36.639
<v Speaker 6>he saw.

0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:40.239
<v Speaker 3>As a result, Adia Newman doesn't call him, but the

0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:41.040
<v Speaker 3>defense does.

0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:45.280
<v Speaker 6>He reiterated that he made this remark that Carl was

0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:48.280
<v Speaker 6>too broad to have been the person that he saw,

0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:52.119
<v Speaker 6>and he also basically said that he was not able

0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:56.480
<v Speaker 6>to identify the person who he saw in the courtroom,

0:22:56.600 --> 0:22:58.719
<v Speaker 6>So meaning right, it's not Carl.

0:22:58.920 --> 0:23:01.360
<v Speaker 3>But the fact that Ada k Newman had subpoenaed him

0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:04.639
<v Speaker 3>makes two things ridiculous. She asks him, mister Fozzio, were

0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:07.480
<v Speaker 3>you wearing your glasses, as if this is supposed to

0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:09.879
<v Speaker 3>impugne his account, even though she was going to call

0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:13.399
<v Speaker 3>him as her witness previously when she thought maybe it

0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:16.480
<v Speaker 3>wouldn't denigrate her case. But second of all, how you

0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:18.960
<v Speaker 3>could get up in summation and say he couldn't add

0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:21.720
<v Speaker 3>anything to the case when you were calling him in

0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:24.920
<v Speaker 3>a case that did not have a ton of witnesses testifying.

0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:29.040
<v Speaker 3>He's one of two people that indisputably saw the purp

0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:31.080
<v Speaker 3>running from this crime scene.

0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:35.160
<v Speaker 1>So Fasio was positive for the defense while Joeanne Davis

0:23:35.320 --> 0:23:40.120
<v Speaker 1>was brutally attacked. But then Carl's lawyer does something absolutely

0:23:40.200 --> 0:23:41.800
<v Speaker 1>insane at the end of the trial.

0:23:42.200 --> 0:23:46.520
<v Speaker 3>It's absurd. It's in his own summation where the verdict

0:23:46.560 --> 0:23:49.400
<v Speaker 3>is going to come down to a credibility contest between

0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:53.760
<v Speaker 3>his civilian aliby witness and the sole witness for the prosecution.

0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:58.840
<v Speaker 3>And first the judge says, actually says on the record, well,

0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:01.679
<v Speaker 3>it's probably improper for me to express an opinion, but

0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:03.879
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to say it. I think the alibi has

0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:08.199
<v Speaker 3>been pretty well discredited. And instead of mister Weiswasser standing

0:24:08.280 --> 0:24:11.560
<v Speaker 3>up and advocating for his client, he says, quote, I

0:24:11.600 --> 0:24:14.639
<v Speaker 3>wish I never heard the word alibi. And in his

0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:19.800
<v Speaker 3>own summation he points out supposed holes in miss Davis's

0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:24.040
<v Speaker 3>testimony denigrator is a witness while calling Detective Sorrentino an

0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:27.679
<v Speaker 3>excellent officer. It's a complete abdication of his duty to

0:24:27.720 --> 0:24:28.200
<v Speaker 3>his client.

0:24:28.640 --> 0:24:31.480
<v Speaker 5>He didn't really do anything in defense of me. He

0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:34.480
<v Speaker 5>really didn't and a juri or eleven whites and one black.

0:24:34.560 --> 0:24:38.760
<v Speaker 5>It was over two hundred asiitics inside and outside the court.

0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:40.439
<v Speaker 2>The deck was stacked against me.

0:24:40.880 --> 0:24:44.600
<v Speaker 1>Predictably, the jury went out and they came back with

0:24:45.119 --> 0:24:48.040
<v Speaker 1>guilty on all accounts right felony, murder, robbery in the

0:24:48.080 --> 0:24:50.320
<v Speaker 1>first degree, in criminal possession of a weapon in the

0:24:50.400 --> 0:24:51.240
<v Speaker 1>second degree.

0:24:51.359 --> 0:24:54.159
<v Speaker 5>When I was found guilty, it was like, Wow, are

0:24:54.200 --> 0:24:57.600
<v Speaker 5>you serious? You're gonna believe this guy that I killed

0:24:57.640 --> 0:25:00.400
<v Speaker 5>this man? A lot of things was running through my head.

0:25:00.440 --> 0:25:02.440
<v Speaker 5>I'm not gonna be raise my son. I'm not gonna

0:25:02.440 --> 0:25:05.920
<v Speaker 5>be able to raise my daughter, you know, my sisters,

0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:07.000
<v Speaker 5>my family.

0:25:07.160 --> 0:25:09.760
<v Speaker 2>So it's a whole lot going through a whole lot.

0:25:23.600 --> 0:25:25.600
<v Speaker 5>I'm put on that bus to go up to Elmira.

0:25:25.720 --> 0:25:27.639
<v Speaker 5>It's like the reality starts sitting there.

0:25:27.880 --> 0:25:29.760
<v Speaker 2>What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do?

0:25:29.920 --> 0:25:31.840
<v Speaker 5>Get caught up in a lot of negative stuff that

0:25:31.880 --> 0:25:35.199
<v Speaker 5>goes on in prison, or you're gonna get yourself up

0:25:35.240 --> 0:25:37.560
<v Speaker 5>out of there for time being. You get caught up

0:25:37.560 --> 0:25:40.240
<v Speaker 5>in a little bit of the negativity stuff to stimulate

0:25:40.280 --> 0:25:42.920
<v Speaker 5>yourself from the reality of being in prison. That's something

0:25:42.960 --> 0:25:45.440
<v Speaker 5>that I did to a couple of old timers. Pulled

0:25:45.480 --> 0:25:47.960
<v Speaker 5>me to the side and said, hey, look, we read

0:25:47.960 --> 0:25:50.560
<v Speaker 5>about your case. It don't seem right. You need to

0:25:50.560 --> 0:25:53.000
<v Speaker 5>get your butt in a little library while your indictment

0:25:53.080 --> 0:25:54.119
<v Speaker 5>make it's still fresh.

0:25:54.560 --> 0:25:57.480
<v Speaker 2>I had a little pill of attorney. He put together some.

0:25:57.600 --> 0:26:00.719
<v Speaker 5>Type of brief that was straight up be at and

0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:04.320
<v Speaker 5>I wound up doing time, just trying to seek help

0:26:04.359 --> 0:26:07.440
<v Speaker 5>from different people. Just keep pushing, went to school, got

0:26:07.480 --> 0:26:12.040
<v Speaker 5>a ged legal research certificate, still trying to prove my innocence.

0:26:12.640 --> 0:26:16.119
<v Speaker 5>Nobody was listening to pills. Was denied time come for

0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:18.720
<v Speaker 5>your first parole board. I go in there, continue to

0:26:18.760 --> 0:26:21.520
<v Speaker 5>maintain my innocence. That was in two thousand and four,

0:26:21.920 --> 0:26:23.919
<v Speaker 5>Go back in two thousand and six, come back in

0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:27.600
<v Speaker 5>two thousand and eight, same thing, go back in twenty ten.

0:26:27.960 --> 0:26:31.520
<v Speaker 5>And what was presented to the senior parole officer at

0:26:31.520 --> 0:26:35.600
<v Speaker 5>the time is that Shanina Sperling and Louis Faizio did

0:26:35.680 --> 0:26:38.880
<v Speaker 5>not identify me. The senior parole officer. He said, Yo,

0:26:39.000 --> 0:26:41.680
<v Speaker 5>you know, they always sent up transcripts of the sentencing,

0:26:41.720 --> 0:26:44.880
<v Speaker 5>but they never sent up stuff like this. And he said, wow,

0:26:44.920 --> 0:26:47.400
<v Speaker 5>I never knew this. So he said, the next parole

0:26:47.440 --> 0:26:49.439
<v Speaker 5>hearing come up, I think you got a good shot

0:26:49.520 --> 0:26:51.880
<v Speaker 5>with this commission of someone. Set your paperwork in front.

0:26:51.920 --> 0:26:54.959
<v Speaker 5>I just continue saying what you're saying, maintaining your innocent

0:26:55.040 --> 0:26:57.760
<v Speaker 5>don't change, and I didn't, and the lo and behold

0:26:57.760 --> 0:26:58.400
<v Speaker 5>I was parole.

0:26:59.119 --> 0:27:02.280
<v Speaker 1>So I kind of glossed over a little bit over

0:27:02.400 --> 0:27:05.359
<v Speaker 1>thirty years that you spent in prison. Right? Was it

0:27:05.440 --> 0:27:05.800
<v Speaker 1>that long?

0:27:05.840 --> 0:27:06.240
<v Speaker 2>Thirty one?

0:27:06.280 --> 0:27:07.000
<v Speaker 1>Thirty one years?

0:27:07.080 --> 0:27:07.240
<v Speaker 2>Right?

0:27:07.760 --> 0:27:10.639
<v Speaker 1>It's amazing that you survived, and that you seem to

0:27:10.680 --> 0:27:13.840
<v Speaker 1>really have survived with your spirit intact. And it's also

0:27:14.040 --> 0:27:17.040
<v Speaker 1>incredible that you were able to go to the parole

0:27:17.080 --> 0:27:20.160
<v Speaker 1>board and do exactly opposite of what people are advised

0:27:20.200 --> 0:27:20.399
<v Speaker 1>to do.

0:27:20.520 --> 0:27:20.720
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:27:20.760 --> 0:27:23.520
<v Speaker 1>They want to hear remorse, they want to hear that

0:27:23.680 --> 0:27:26.439
<v Speaker 1>sort of narrative. Right, So for them to be able

0:27:26.560 --> 0:27:29.239
<v Speaker 1>to act the way that they did shows that they

0:27:29.320 --> 0:27:32.000
<v Speaker 1>must have known what you had known all along, and

0:27:32.040 --> 0:27:34.040
<v Speaker 1>what everyone should have known all along, which is that

0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:35.040
<v Speaker 1>you were actually innocent.

0:27:35.160 --> 0:27:38.760
<v Speaker 5>Being released after thirty one years. It was surreal. It

0:27:38.800 --> 0:27:42.040
<v Speaker 5>was wow, I'm walking the street. Oh man, what am

0:27:42.080 --> 0:27:45.400
<v Speaker 5>I going to do? Okay, gotta go see parole. That's

0:27:45.480 --> 0:27:48.640
<v Speaker 5>kind of frustrating because you're still on the supervision. Came out,

0:27:48.960 --> 0:27:52.280
<v Speaker 5>got married, reconnected. What did I miss? I missed my

0:27:52.400 --> 0:27:56.440
<v Speaker 5>daughter's first time walking. I missed my daughter's first grade.

0:27:56.560 --> 0:27:58.879
<v Speaker 5>I missed my son's first grade. I missed my son's

0:27:58.920 --> 0:28:01.919
<v Speaker 5>first baseball game. I missed so many things that you

0:28:01.960 --> 0:28:04.920
<v Speaker 5>cannot get back. So when you come out, where do

0:28:05.000 --> 0:28:07.400
<v Speaker 5>you pick up from my daughter? Because she was only

0:28:07.440 --> 0:28:10.320
<v Speaker 5>a couple of months before I left. My son was two,

0:28:10.640 --> 0:28:12.560
<v Speaker 5>So you look at the time. So you're saying thirty

0:28:12.600 --> 0:28:14.879
<v Speaker 5>one and thirty three. These are young adults that have

0:28:15.040 --> 0:28:18.280
<v Speaker 5>lived a life. So how could you interject as a father?

0:28:18.440 --> 0:28:20.679
<v Speaker 5>Because this was taken away from me. So you do

0:28:20.760 --> 0:28:22.840
<v Speaker 5>the best that you can. And that's all I've been

0:28:22.840 --> 0:28:25.880
<v Speaker 5>doing since I've been out, was reconnecting with them, connected

0:28:25.920 --> 0:28:28.520
<v Speaker 5>with other family members and things of that nature, and

0:28:28.560 --> 0:28:31.280
<v Speaker 5>then got back into proving my innocence. And that's when

0:28:31.320 --> 0:28:33.800
<v Speaker 5>I continue doing what I was doing. And I wrote

0:28:33.840 --> 0:28:36.879
<v Speaker 5>to different people after Ken Thompson had set up the

0:28:37.119 --> 0:28:40.120
<v Speaker 5>wrongful conviction unit that he has in the Brooklyn District

0:28:40.120 --> 0:28:44.640
<v Speaker 5>Attorney's office, and I had contacted them, and I contacted James,

0:28:44.640 --> 0:28:45.800
<v Speaker 5>and this is where we're at now.

0:28:46.320 --> 0:28:50.600
<v Speaker 3>So where we are right now is we had cooperated

0:28:50.640 --> 0:28:53.760
<v Speaker 3>for a bit with the conviction review unit here in Brooklyn.

0:28:53.800 --> 0:28:57.080
<v Speaker 3>We'd received some materials we intend to use in support

0:28:57.120 --> 0:29:00.479
<v Speaker 3>of emotion at some point. Ultimately, after they interviewed Carl

0:29:00.560 --> 0:29:03.160
<v Speaker 3>and some of the witnesses in the case declined to

0:29:03.200 --> 0:29:07.240
<v Speaker 3>be interviewed or could not be located, they closed out

0:29:07.240 --> 0:29:10.360
<v Speaker 3>the case. But then this month they reached back out

0:29:10.360 --> 0:29:12.680
<v Speaker 3>and said that there has been a recent and unexpected

0:29:12.720 --> 0:29:16.680
<v Speaker 3>development in the investigation of Carl's case and that they're

0:29:16.680 --> 0:29:20.840
<v Speaker 3>going to reopen the investigation, which I don't believe I've

0:29:20.840 --> 0:29:22.440
<v Speaker 3>heard of them doing in any other case.

0:29:23.360 --> 0:29:25.520
<v Speaker 1>After we wrapped our first interview, we got a call

0:29:25.560 --> 0:29:28.240
<v Speaker 1>from James and Carrissa asking us to hold on production

0:29:28.320 --> 0:29:30.920
<v Speaker 1>until they could meet with the Brooklyn DA's office. It

0:29:31.000 --> 0:29:33.120
<v Speaker 1>turns out that back in nineteen seventy nine, a guy

0:29:33.200 --> 0:29:36.520
<v Speaker 1>named Robert Simms gave a statement to corroborate Brown about

0:29:36.520 --> 0:29:39.840
<v Speaker 1>Carl's alleged statement at the Falafel or Pizza store. Now,

0:29:39.960 --> 0:29:42.800
<v Speaker 1>in October twenty twenty three, some new evidence came to

0:29:42.880 --> 0:29:44.640
<v Speaker 1>light about Robert Simms and his wife.

0:29:44.760 --> 0:29:49.520
<v Speaker 3>Linda Simms, the broken cru in the course of their reinvestigation,

0:29:50.280 --> 0:29:54.000
<v Speaker 3>had visited her house looking to speak with her husband,

0:29:54.120 --> 0:29:57.480
<v Speaker 3>Robert Simms, and left the card there. And what we've

0:29:57.520 --> 0:30:01.160
<v Speaker 3>been told is that Linda Simms, the wife, January of

0:30:01.280 --> 0:30:04.720
<v Speaker 3>twenty twenty three, reached out to her sister and sent

0:30:04.760 --> 0:30:08.200
<v Speaker 3>a picture of the assistant's business card that had been

0:30:08.240 --> 0:30:10.840
<v Speaker 3>left at the door. And when her sister asked, well,

0:30:11.040 --> 0:30:15.160
<v Speaker 3>what is this about, she responded, well, google Rabbi Crown

0:30:15.200 --> 0:30:19.920
<v Speaker 3>Heights nineteen seventy nine, and the sister, Teresa, found articles

0:30:19.960 --> 0:30:23.160
<v Speaker 3>on Rabbi Akinov's murder. And she asked her sister, Linda, well,

0:30:23.240 --> 0:30:26.720
<v Speaker 3>what did you do, and Linda responded that's what I did.

0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:32.440
<v Speaker 3>And Teresa, caring about her sister, said well, what you

0:30:32.480 --> 0:30:34.480
<v Speaker 3>need to do is get yourself an attorney and turn

0:30:34.520 --> 0:30:39.160
<v Speaker 3>yourself in. And Linda for many months did not heed

0:30:39.200 --> 0:30:44.360
<v Speaker 3>that advice. So by September ish, it seems to be Teresa,

0:30:44.480 --> 0:30:47.600
<v Speaker 3>this was weighing very heavily on her contacted the Brooklyn

0:30:47.640 --> 0:30:51.920
<v Speaker 3>DIA's office and that's what spurred on the reopening of

0:30:51.960 --> 0:30:53.120
<v Speaker 3>the investigation.

0:30:53.720 --> 0:30:57.680
<v Speaker 1>The confession from Linda to her sister Teresa continued implicating

0:30:57.760 --> 0:30:58.680
<v Speaker 1>Robert Simms.

0:30:59.120 --> 0:31:02.600
<v Speaker 3>Linda said, I did that, and then Web meaning her

0:31:02.600 --> 0:31:05.720
<v Speaker 3>and Robert, brought it up to our father. He was

0:31:05.840 --> 0:31:08.280
<v Speaker 3>very pissed off and sent me down south. Now there's

0:31:08.320 --> 0:31:10.720
<v Speaker 3>a fair inference that she was saying that both of

0:31:10.800 --> 0:31:13.360
<v Speaker 3>us did this. And we now have additional evidence that

0:31:13.840 --> 0:31:18.360
<v Speaker 3>Linda Simms's father, who was murdered in December nineteen eighty,

0:31:18.400 --> 0:31:22.040
<v Speaker 3>shortly after Carl's trial, that at various points throughout nineteen

0:31:22.120 --> 0:31:25.400
<v Speaker 3>seventy nine and nineteen eighty, both Linda and Robert Simms

0:31:25.800 --> 0:31:29.800
<v Speaker 3>had possession of his handgun. And additional information that has

0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:35.640
<v Speaker 3>come out about Robert has certainly changed our assessment of him. Specifically,

0:31:36.000 --> 0:31:39.240
<v Speaker 3>when he was interviewed by the cru in relation to

0:31:39.280 --> 0:31:42.120
<v Speaker 3>Carl's case, they did not know that in the early

0:31:42.160 --> 0:31:45.760
<v Speaker 3>two thousands he was carrying on this relationship outside of

0:31:45.840 --> 0:31:49.560
<v Speaker 3>his marriage with Linda. She was a twenty something beautician,

0:31:50.120 --> 0:31:54.040
<v Speaker 3>they had a child together, and she was found disposed

0:31:54.080 --> 0:31:57.200
<v Speaker 3>of in a very rough fashion in an abandoned building.

0:31:57.600 --> 0:32:01.520
<v Speaker 3>And Robert was brought to trial in Brooklyn for the

0:32:01.600 --> 0:32:05.120
<v Speaker 3>murder and somehow acquitted. Obviously, the file is sealed following

0:32:05.160 --> 0:32:08.000
<v Speaker 3>the acquittal, but it sounds like the only reason for

0:32:08.080 --> 0:32:13.080
<v Speaker 3>the acquittal was that Robert pointed the finger to friends

0:32:13.120 --> 0:32:16.520
<v Speaker 3>who had helped him dispose of the body and claimed

0:32:16.560 --> 0:32:18.240
<v Speaker 3>that one of them was the actual murderer.

0:32:18.440 --> 0:32:20.360
<v Speaker 1>So what was the guy's name who took the fall?

0:32:20.600 --> 0:32:21.600
<v Speaker 3>Meltreus Walker?

0:32:21.920 --> 0:32:23.160
<v Speaker 1>Is he still serving time?

0:32:23.480 --> 0:32:26.720
<v Speaker 3>He's out now? He essentially says he came over to

0:32:27.080 --> 0:32:30.320
<v Speaker 3>the house the woman had been shot four times and

0:32:30.480 --> 0:32:32.040
<v Speaker 3>Robert said, I need you to help me take care

0:32:32.080 --> 0:32:32.280
<v Speaker 3>of this.

0:32:32.400 --> 0:32:32.520
<v Speaker 2>Now.

0:32:32.560 --> 0:32:36.520
<v Speaker 3>What's even more interesting here is before the Brooklyn DIA's office,

0:32:36.560 --> 0:32:41.120
<v Speaker 3>the cru had learned through Theresa lind his sister, about

0:32:41.200 --> 0:32:44.520
<v Speaker 3>Robert's prior charge that he was acquitted of. They interviewed

0:32:44.560 --> 0:32:47.120
<v Speaker 3>him and he said he did not want to talk

0:32:47.160 --> 0:32:51.600
<v Speaker 3>about his prior case, which he referred to as sort

0:32:51.640 --> 0:32:54.200
<v Speaker 3>of a little incident, I believe, but he didn't want

0:32:54.200 --> 0:32:57.000
<v Speaker 3>to get into the details. He said that he and

0:32:57.120 --> 0:33:01.800
<v Speaker 3>Daryl Brown, the sole witness against Karl, had been best

0:33:01.800 --> 0:33:05.640
<v Speaker 3>friends for years up until that point, at which time

0:33:05.840 --> 0:33:08.360
<v Speaker 3>they had a falling out because he asked Daryl Brown

0:33:08.440 --> 0:33:13.600
<v Speaker 3>for some help with something, and Darryl Brown's response was,

0:33:14.040 --> 0:33:16.040
<v Speaker 3>who the f do you think you are? John Gottie

0:33:16.080 --> 0:33:19.160
<v Speaker 3>or something, And they haven't really spoken. Since it sounds

0:33:19.200 --> 0:33:22.360
<v Speaker 3>like Daryl was asked to do some dirty work for Robert.

0:33:22.360 --> 0:33:25.440
<v Speaker 1>Not certainly plausible that Daryl Brown may have been responding

0:33:25.480 --> 0:33:28.920
<v Speaker 1>to a request from Robert Simms for yet another big favor.

0:33:29.360 --> 0:33:32.880
<v Speaker 3>Going back to the original investigation, the statement attributed to

0:33:33.040 --> 0:33:38.160
<v Speaker 3>Robert by police was that Robert and Daryl Brown a

0:33:38.280 --> 0:33:41.200
<v Speaker 3>day or a few days before Rabbi Akinov's murder had

0:33:41.240 --> 0:33:44.080
<v Speaker 3>been in a pizza shop on Kingston Avenue and seeing

0:33:44.120 --> 0:33:47.480
<v Speaker 3>a Jewish man with a prayer bag full of money,

0:33:47.760 --> 0:33:53.440
<v Speaker 3>and according to the police report, Robert and Daryl were

0:33:53.440 --> 0:33:56.479
<v Speaker 3>thinking of robbing this man but didn't and when they

0:33:56.560 --> 0:33:58.920
<v Speaker 3>later saw Carl Miller, they said, here's what we saw,

0:33:58.960 --> 0:34:01.720
<v Speaker 3>and according to the police report, Carl said, oh, you

0:34:01.720 --> 0:34:04.400
<v Speaker 3>should have ripped him off. Now, Carl has always denied

0:34:04.840 --> 0:34:08.279
<v Speaker 3>making that statement. We have nothing from Daryl Brown on

0:34:08.320 --> 0:34:10.319
<v Speaker 3>that statement at trial. We have him in a police

0:34:10.360 --> 0:34:13.200
<v Speaker 3>report giving a different version of that. What Robert Simms

0:34:13.200 --> 0:34:15.799
<v Speaker 3>did admit to us and to the cru is that

0:34:15.840 --> 0:34:18.040
<v Speaker 3>he was looking to get one of those bags he

0:34:18.080 --> 0:34:21.759
<v Speaker 3>was interested in robbing somebody. He denies that they had

0:34:21.800 --> 0:34:24.560
<v Speaker 3>any conversation where Carl Miller said, yeah, you should have

0:34:24.600 --> 0:34:27.759
<v Speaker 3>taken this guy off. And as Carl has said repeatedly,

0:34:27.960 --> 0:34:30.800
<v Speaker 3>his response to that would have been, are you crazy.

0:34:31.120 --> 0:34:33.920
<v Speaker 3>You're right across the street from the JDL and you're

0:34:33.960 --> 0:34:36.520
<v Speaker 3>going to rob a guy like this. That's ridiculous.

0:34:36.760 --> 0:34:38.680
<v Speaker 1>So where does the case stand now?

0:34:38.719 --> 0:34:40.960
<v Speaker 3>With the cru they have turned things over to us.

0:34:41.080 --> 0:34:45.640
<v Speaker 3>We're gathering information and evidence to put a motion into court.

0:34:46.000 --> 0:34:47.880
<v Speaker 3>We've had several people talk to us and give us

0:34:47.880 --> 0:34:51.000
<v Speaker 3>additional evidence. We're feeling good that we can get ourselves

0:34:51.040 --> 0:34:52.879
<v Speaker 3>a hearing where we can subpoena some of these people

0:34:52.880 --> 0:34:55.200
<v Speaker 3>and get them in to give sworn testimony so we

0:34:55.239 --> 0:34:57.480
<v Speaker 3>can weed out the truth here.

0:34:57.800 --> 0:35:02.640
<v Speaker 6>Absolutely, and now we're working with the CiU. Clearly there

0:35:02.680 --> 0:35:06.120
<v Speaker 6>are ways and avenues for us to pursue.

0:35:06.160 --> 0:35:08.560
<v Speaker 4>We just need people to speak up about it.

0:35:08.960 --> 0:35:09.839
<v Speaker 2>Karl deserves it.

0:35:10.280 --> 0:35:14.560
<v Speaker 3>Rabbi Akanov deserves to have the right person convicted of

0:35:14.600 --> 0:35:17.319
<v Speaker 3>this crime. This is a case that is based on

0:35:17.320 --> 0:35:20.960
<v Speaker 3>one person, Daryl Brown his word. We're not here to

0:35:21.080 --> 0:35:24.440
<v Speaker 3>judge you. Somebody was already judged in this case, and

0:35:24.520 --> 0:35:27.000
<v Speaker 3>we submit that it was wrongful. Reach out to us.

0:35:27.239 --> 0:35:30.120
<v Speaker 3>We'll talk to you. This isn't a witch hunt or something.

0:35:30.520 --> 0:35:33.320
<v Speaker 3>We just want the truth. We're at eighty six Livingston

0:35:33.320 --> 0:35:35.520
<v Speaker 3>Street in Brooklyn. We want to get to the bottom

0:35:35.520 --> 0:35:35.839
<v Speaker 3>of this.

0:35:36.280 --> 0:35:38.600
<v Speaker 1>So we'll definitely have your contact info length in the

0:35:38.640 --> 0:35:40.600
<v Speaker 1>episode description, and with that we're going to go to

0:35:40.600 --> 0:35:44.560
<v Speaker 1>closing arguments, where first of all, I just want to

0:35:44.560 --> 0:35:47.920
<v Speaker 1>thank you for joining us, and now I'm going to

0:35:47.960 --> 0:35:50.640
<v Speaker 1>shut my microphone off, kick back of my chair with

0:35:50.680 --> 0:35:53.680
<v Speaker 1>my headphones on, and just listen to anything else that

0:35:53.719 --> 0:35:56.319
<v Speaker 1>you feel is left to be said. So let's start

0:35:56.320 --> 0:35:59.799
<v Speaker 1>with James, go to Carissa, and then finish it off

0:35:59.840 --> 0:36:00.480
<v Speaker 1>with you call.

0:36:01.440 --> 0:36:04.560
<v Speaker 3>One thing that I think we didn't get into, something

0:36:04.600 --> 0:36:07.000
<v Speaker 3>that we only learned after we started cooperating with the

0:36:07.040 --> 0:36:09.920
<v Speaker 3>cru in this case, is that one of the people

0:36:09.960 --> 0:36:11.680
<v Speaker 3>that we've seen pop up in a lot of these

0:36:11.719 --> 0:36:16.520
<v Speaker 3>cases is a gentleman that your viewers are certainly familiar with,

0:36:16.520 --> 0:36:21.160
<v Speaker 3>the detective Lewis Scarcella, and he it just so happens

0:36:21.200 --> 0:36:24.600
<v Speaker 3>pops up in this case for reasons that have not

0:36:24.680 --> 0:36:28.399
<v Speaker 3>been revealed to us. Two days after the murder, then

0:36:28.560 --> 0:36:34.760
<v Speaker 3>Anti Crime Officer Lewis Scarcella is interviewed by the assisting

0:36:34.800 --> 0:36:39.080
<v Speaker 3>detective Viola, and we have no information about that. But

0:36:39.280 --> 0:36:42.160
<v Speaker 3>we do have information that former detective Scarcella has been

0:36:42.200 --> 0:36:46.440
<v Speaker 3>monitoring the progress of this case and the media accounts

0:36:46.480 --> 0:36:49.239
<v Speaker 3>of this case. So again I'll say the same thing

0:36:49.280 --> 0:36:53.440
<v Speaker 3>I said about Daryl Brown, Missus Scarcella, my phone is on.

0:36:53.920 --> 0:36:57.760
<v Speaker 3>Information is information. We don't know how you factored into this. Again,

0:36:57.920 --> 0:37:01.120
<v Speaker 3>I'll say, we're not going to stop. There will be

0:37:01.640 --> 0:37:04.719
<v Speaker 3>a resolution here, whether it's through the cru whether it's

0:37:04.800 --> 0:37:07.440
<v Speaker 3>filing something. When Carl came to me, I said, we're

0:37:07.440 --> 0:37:09.839
<v Speaker 3>going to fight this case. When Carissa read this case,

0:37:09.920 --> 0:37:12.120
<v Speaker 3>she said, we're going to fight this case together. That's

0:37:12.120 --> 0:37:14.800
<v Speaker 3>what we do, and we're going to keep moving forward,

0:37:15.080 --> 0:37:15.560
<v Speaker 3>reach out.

0:37:15.880 --> 0:37:18.640
<v Speaker 6>I'm just really happy that we were able to touch

0:37:18.680 --> 0:37:23.000
<v Speaker 6>on the fact that Carl was released on parole notwithstanding

0:37:23.120 --> 0:37:24.960
<v Speaker 6>him maintaining his innocence.

0:37:25.400 --> 0:37:26.920
<v Speaker 4>I think that is huge.

0:37:27.000 --> 0:37:30.400
<v Speaker 6>Anyone who's familiar with the criminal justice process knows that

0:37:30.560 --> 0:37:31.239
<v Speaker 6>is huge.

0:37:31.600 --> 0:37:33.000
<v Speaker 4>And I really think.

0:37:32.960 --> 0:37:36.719
<v Speaker 6>It's no surprise that Fazio played a role and that

0:37:37.080 --> 0:37:40.520
<v Speaker 6>so as we're saying, if anyone has any more information

0:37:40.800 --> 0:37:42.120
<v Speaker 6>similar to Fazio.

0:37:42.200 --> 0:37:44.960
<v Speaker 4>Maybe they saw something just come forward.

0:37:45.360 --> 0:37:47.560
<v Speaker 5>I would like to say thank you in the role

0:37:47.640 --> 0:37:51.440
<v Speaker 5>for Picent podcast for giving us the opportunity to have

0:37:51.560 --> 0:37:53.920
<v Speaker 5>this out there in the public so that people can

0:37:53.960 --> 0:37:56.600
<v Speaker 5>see not just me, but they are a whole bunch of

0:37:56.600 --> 0:38:02.319
<v Speaker 5>wrongful convictions. And as James and Carissa as stated, it's

0:38:02.400 --> 0:38:05.480
<v Speaker 5>people that know me. If you know something that need

0:38:05.520 --> 0:38:07.560
<v Speaker 5>to be spoke on, speak on it. That's all I

0:38:07.600 --> 0:38:11.280
<v Speaker 5>have to say.

0:38:15.000 --> 0:38:17.800
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

0:38:17.840 --> 0:38:20.200
<v Speaker 1>to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one

0:38:20.200 --> 0:38:23.239
<v Speaker 1>week early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on

0:38:23.320 --> 0:38:26.440
<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team, Connor

0:38:26.480 --> 0:38:29.440
<v Speaker 1>Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as my fellow executive

0:38:29.440 --> 0:38:33.160
<v Speaker 1>producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Cliburn. The music

0:38:33.160 --> 0:38:35.800
<v Speaker 1>in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated

0:38:35.800 --> 0:38:38.839
<v Speaker 1>composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all

0:38:38.840 --> 0:38:42.480
<v Speaker 1>social media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction.

0:38:42.880 --> 0:38:45.840
<v Speaker 1>You can also follow me on Instagram at It's Jason Flamm.

0:38:46.160 --> 0:38:49.040
<v Speaker 1>Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts

0:38:49.080 --> 0:38:52.200
<v Speaker 1>and association with signal Company number one