1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:06,239 Speaker 1: On October twenty fifth, nineteen seventy nine, Rabbi David Akanov 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: was walking with his prayer case in Crown Heights, Brooklyn, 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: when an assailant approached, described as a young black man 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: about five foot nine, one hundred and fifty pounds, he 5 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: shot the prominent rabbi, stole the prayer case, and ran 6 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: into an apartment building. Eventually, NYPD found a young man 7 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: named Daryl Brown, who gave several accounts alleging that a 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: local amateur broxer named Carl Miller had made some incriminating statements. 9 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 1: Karl had an open warrant for assault, was brought in 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: for a lineup, but the eyewitnesses didn't identify him. After 11 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: he was processed for the previous assault charge and released, 12 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: Carl approached Daryl Brown in the street, but Brown was 13 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: not deterred. At trial, Brown testified that he had seen 14 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: the whole thing from start to finish, so the prosecutor 15 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: no longer needed the other eyewitnesses who did not identify 16 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: Karl in the lineup. But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome 17 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: back to wrongful conviction, where we have a story born 18 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: out of racial and religious tension in New York City 19 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: that existed certainly before the crime came in the late seventies, 20 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: but also through the nineties and even today in Crown Heights, Brooklyn, 21 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: between the Black and Ascidic communities. 22 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 2: That live there. 23 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 1: But before we get into how that relates to this 24 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: story and the man who lived at Carl Miller, I'd 25 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: like to welcome back one of his attorneys, James Henning, 26 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: to our show. 27 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 3: Pleasure to be back, Jason. 28 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: And this time you brought along another attorney who played 29 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: a major role in this case, Carissa Cokin. 30 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 4: Welcome, thank you. 31 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: And now i'd like to introduce the man himself, Carl Miller. 32 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: And as we record this right now, October twenty fifth, 33 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, it's not only his birthday, but also 34 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,559 Speaker 1: the forty fourth anniversary of the crime at the center 35 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: of his wrongful conviction. So Carl, I'm sure that colors 36 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: how you see this day, but we hope that this 37 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: one is a happy birthday, and thank you for choosing 38 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: to spend some of it here with us. 39 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 2: And you're welcome. 40 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: Now, Carl, can you tell us a little bit about 41 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: your childhood. 42 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 5: I grew up in Crown Heights with my family. I 43 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 5: went to public school to twenty one. From there went 44 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 5: to James D. Lawrence, which is a six hundred school. 45 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 5: My mother and my father moved out, and I just 46 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 5: hung around with some of the guys that I was 47 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 5: associated with. 48 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 3: Carl did not have his parents around for a while. 49 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 3: He was expected to go out and handle his own business. 50 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: And you were married, and you were a young father 51 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: at the time. 52 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 2: That wasn't married at the time, but I was a 53 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: young father. 54 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: I understand you were an amateur boxer. 55 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 56 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 5: I did box for Izzyzerland Youth and Recreation Center and 57 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 5: Crown Heights, and I had a little reputation in the 58 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 5: neighborhood as somebody that you didn't want to mess. 59 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 3: With, and I think that, unfortunately worked against him when 60 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 3: he was wrongfully accused. 61 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: In the months leading up to the murdering question, Carl 62 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: had been in a fight in which he was stabbed 63 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: with a screwdriver and hospitalized with a collapse lung, resulting 64 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: in an open arrestaurant for assault, which seems wrong for 65 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: someone defending themselves against deadly force, but that kind of 66 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: unfair application of the law was nothing new to Carl. 67 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 5: I did have a confrontation with the seventy first precinct 68 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 5: because they used to come around and get guys to 69 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 5: go in for lineups, and I started telling them, don't 70 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 5: do that because you getting paid five dollars for a lineup, 71 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 5: but in not giving you back the picture. So this 72 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 5: is my way of like trying to keep them out 73 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 5: of the police way. 74 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: Which is solid advice. We've seen misidentifications start just that 75 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: way in so many wrongful conviction cases. So as a 76 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: young man, Carl had already witnessed injustices to give him 77 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: that perspective. While in contrast, there appeared to be preferential 78 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: treatment for the Hasidic community and Crown Heights. 79 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 3: It's a strong voting bocke. It's like you're not going 80 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 3: to get elected mayor if you don't have the Hasiatic 81 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 3: community because they will vote in droves for the candidate 82 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 3: that the rebbe tells them to vote for. 83 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: The Hasidic community before and after World War Two settled 84 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: in Crown Heights, which had been anointed by the leaders 85 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: of what is known as the HBBAD or Hobbad Lubovich movement, 86 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: many of whom had escaped persecution either at the hands 87 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: of the Germans or those in the Soviet block before 88 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: and after World War Two. Curiously, the city allowed one 89 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: of its most powerful voting blocks to operate their own 90 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: police force, the Jewish Defense League or JDL. 91 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,799 Speaker 3: The hard charge behind that JDL philosophy was never again, 92 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 3: get yourself a gun, don't rely on the cops. People 93 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 3: lived in an era where the cops were hurting you 94 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 3: onto the trains to auschwitzenbergen Belsen and Triblinka and whatnot. 95 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 3: It's that Merkan slogan, never again, We're not going to 96 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 3: be vulnerable. Imagine any other group in New York City 97 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 3: having their own police force. There are two very distinct 98 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 3: worlds there in the Crown Heights area. One that is 99 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 3: set up with their own ambulance and emergency systems, and 100 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 3: they've had a number of issues going up until recent 101 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 3: days with those two communities bordering on each other. 102 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 5: One of the one that really stands out is the 103 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 5: Crown Heights riot. But as I will say to people, 104 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 5: prior to Crown Heights riots, you had like Victor Road, 105 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 5: he was a guy that was a cost about the JDL, 106 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 5: And of. 107 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,239 Speaker 1: Course you're talking about the awful incident on June sixteenth, 108 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight, when approximately twenty Assitic men beat a 109 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: sixteen year old kid named Victor Roads into a coma 110 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: that lasted for two months. And so obviously the tension 111 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: was high in the area. 112 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 5: So it was always tension, but it wasn't the con 113 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 5: at tension that the Crown Heights riot had bought. 114 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: The Crown Heights riot took place in August nineteen ninety 115 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: one when a young Hasidic man drove through a red light, 116 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: peered off the road to avoid now oncoming traffic, and 117 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: pinned two seven year old Black children under his car, 118 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: one of whom Gavin Cato, was killed, signetic a race riot. 119 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 3: The story at the scene was the Shibata ambulance showed 120 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 3: up and went straight for the Hasidam while kids underneath 121 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 3: the car and they're trying to lift it up. 122 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: The tension that was building for decades exploded. Jewish people 123 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: and their businesses were attacked, and the violence played heavily 124 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: into the nineteen ninety three mayoral election of Rudy Giuliani, 125 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: who unseated New York City's first African American mayor, David Dinkins. 126 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: The unrest in Crown Heights was Palpable in nineteen ninety three, 127 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: and was certainly present when Victor Rhodes was attacked in 128 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: June of seventy eight, as well as when Rabbi David 129 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: Akanov was murdered in October seventy nine. 130 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 3: Rabbi David Akanov, the victim in this case, was in 131 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 3: his late sixties. He had been born in Ukraine in 132 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 3: nineteen eleven studied the Torah under Communist rule there. Actually, 133 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 3: after his bar Mitzvah, he wanted to continue studying, but 134 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 3: his parents wouldn't let him, so he went on a 135 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 3: hunger strike until they gave up and led him. He 136 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 3: ended up emigrating to the US after learning that the 137 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 3: KGB was looking into him, and he made efforts in 138 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 3: the Crown Heights community to help other Jews who were 139 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 3: living under oppression in Russia. So Rabbi Akanov was, by 140 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 3: all accounts, a very pious and charitable man. He was 141 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 3: not somebody who seemed to deal with a lot of trappings. 142 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 3: But he did have a regular prayer case that he 143 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 3: would bring with him to pray, and it contained and 144 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 3: I'm going to butcher this terminology, his talus and his 145 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 3: tapillon which are religious implements used by Lubovich has Seed him. 146 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 3: So just before seven am on October twenty fifth, nineteen 147 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 3: seventy nine, he's on his way to yeshiva when he shot. 148 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 4: This was a very high profile case. We've got a 149 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 4: very prominent rabbi. 150 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 6: In the community who was shot with a thirty two 151 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 6: caliber point blank in the face. There were two eyewitnesses 152 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 6: to this shooting. 153 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 3: Both of the eyewitnesses Louis Fazio, who was not a 154 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 3: member of the seed Of community, and sixteen year old 155 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 3: Sinaya Sperlin, who was. It's pretty evident that they saw 156 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 3: the same person running from the scene with Rabbi Akinov's 157 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 3: prayer case. 158 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: Now, the descriptions were actually remarkably similar from the two witnesses. 159 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: A man who was black, twenty one years old, ish right, 160 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: about five nine, one hundred and fifty pounds, medium built, 161 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: medium hair, possibly wearing a hat and a dark jacket. Carl, 162 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: does that description match you or did it match you 163 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: at that time? 164 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 5: At that time, I was probaby a five one hundred 165 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 5: and eighty pounds, weigh a little afro and wear too 166 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 5: many hats, very athletic, not slim, as they had described 167 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 5: this person as being a slender person. 168 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 2: That's not me. 169 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: They're talking about a guy who's five nine one fifty. 170 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: You're about six feet tall, right, Yeah, there's a significant difference. 171 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: You were a boxer, right, so with a class of boxing. 172 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 5: I was in a light heavy, light heavyweight, light heavyweight. 173 00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: So the descriptions didn't match. What about alibis and things 174 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: like that. 175 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 5: I was in Queens, New York, celebrating my birthday with 176 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 5: my daughter's mother at the time, and I left her 177 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 5: house came back to Brooklyn, and that's when I learned 178 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 5: about the rabbi being murdered. 179 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: Carl had spent the night in Queens, and even after 180 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: lies and coercion, his daughter's mother, Joanne Davis, maintained that 181 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: he was there that morning and not in Crown Heights 182 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: at seven am, murdering Rabbi Akanoff and running off with 183 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: his prayer case into the apartment building at five point 184 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: sixty five Crown Street. 185 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 6: And that is where they end up finding a suitcase 186 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 6: that belonged to an individual named Darryl Brown. 187 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 3: Rabbi Akonov's prayer case is never found, and in an 188 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 3: abandoned apartment they find this suitcase belonging to Darryl Brown 189 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 3: with his property in there, and two days later he 190 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 3: shows up at the precinct because he heard that they 191 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 3: were looking for them. 192 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 4: Daryl Brown essentially ends up being the only person to 193 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 4: ever implicate Carl Beller in this crime. 194 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: Right, you sure Lock Holmes to figure out that a 195 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: misdirection play there. 196 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 3: Right, You've also got the fact that Darryl Brown is 197 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 3: repeatedly lying to them. His statements evolve. His initial statement 198 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 3: indicates that he didn't see anything. 199 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: And then they received a second statement from Daryl Brown 200 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 1: on November eight, nineteen seventy nine, while he was being 201 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: treated at King's County Hospital for a gunshot wound to 202 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: the hand. They never investigate the cause of the wound. 203 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 3: When they come back to him, presumably with the ability 204 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 3: to turn the screws a little bit, when he's in 205 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 3: the hospital with the gunshot wound, he now says that 206 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 3: he and two other friends had seen a Jewish man 207 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 3: with some money in a pizza falafel store and Carl 208 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 3: supposedly said, oh, you should have ripped him off, and 209 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 3: that he had heard the shot and saw Carl near 210 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 3: the scene. 211 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: Carl has always maintained if he was not present either 212 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: for the murder or that day in the store. We 213 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: only find out who that actually was much later then. 214 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 3: Darryl Brown in his third documented statement and his first 215 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 3: sworn statement the next day on November ninth, he says 216 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 3: that he had seen Carl near the scene and he 217 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 3: tried to get into five point sixty five Crown where 218 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 3: I was staying. I've seen him with a thirty two 219 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 3: and I spoke to him the day before the crime 220 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 3: about a jew with money in a blue bag. And 221 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 3: that's a quote which is important because it departs from 222 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 3: his testimony at trial. 223 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: On the strength of Dwell Brown's ever shifting word, Carl 224 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: was eventually charged with the murder. However, with his open 225 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: arrest warrant for assault, his reputation as a neighborhood tough guy, 226 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: and previous interactions with the seventy first Precinct, they came 227 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,839 Speaker 1: looking for him way before Brown had ever made any statements. 228 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: Just a few days after the rabbi's murder in late October. 229 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 5: My sister tell me that the police was looking for 230 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 5: me to talk to me, and I called him, said, 231 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 5: what are you looking me for? Oh, we want to 232 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 5: talk to you about the homicide. Come to the precinct. 233 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 5: I'm like, nah, we can talk about not come to 234 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 5: the precinct. I didn't go because I made he was 235 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 5: going to arrest me, so I had an open case. 236 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,719 Speaker 3: I had a warrant, which is completely within his rights. 237 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 5: And I think it was November fourteenth. They picked me 238 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 5: up at my house, took me to the sixty ninth precinct, 239 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 5: questioned me about the homicide, but they arrested me for 240 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 5: my warrant. 241 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 3: When Carl does get brought to the precinct, he offers 242 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 3: to take a polygraph and provide his fingerprints, and police 243 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 3: don't take his prince, but they do take a polygraph, 244 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 3: which they claim Carl failed. He then stands in two 245 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 3: lineups without council and is viewed by Shanina Sperlin and 246 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 3: Louis Fazio, the two undisputed eyewitnesses, neither of whom identify him. 247 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 2: I was held on the warrant. 248 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 5: They took me to Rockets Island, came back out and 249 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 5: walking around the street and people was telling me that 250 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 5: this guy Brown was talking about me with the police, 251 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 5: and I had a confrontation with him when I was accident. 252 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 5: Why are you telling um talking to the police about 253 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 5: me about this case? Oh, they want me to say 254 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 5: and I'm not gonna say nothing. I was just telling 255 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:54,719 Speaker 5: him leave my name out of it, because I had 256 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 5: nothing to do with that at all. 257 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 2: This was around probably right after Thanksgiving. 258 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 3: Daryl Brown on November twenty ninth is given a polygraph 259 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 3: quote to test out his earlier statement end quote to 260 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 3: the prosecutor and according to the police, Brown's polygraph shows 261 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 3: that he was telling the truth about everything, but there 262 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 3: was some question about his withholding evidence from the police. 263 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 3: Now think about that statement, because we know number one, 264 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 3: polygraphs aren't this nuance? Now they weren't this nuance? Then 265 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 3: this was a tool for coercion. 266 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: It usually is. Polygraphs aren't even admissible in court. And 267 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,079 Speaker 1: I need our audience to remember that police are allowed 268 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: to lie to you about evidence, and they routinely lie 269 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: about polygraph results in order to coerce confessions. 270 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 5: When they arrested me on the fourteenth and I volunteered 271 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 5: for the lineup, the guy has said that, oh, you 272 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 5: was picked out in Alno, which we come to learn 273 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 5: that was not true, that I was never identified in Lano. 274 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 5: After I take the polygraph test, they said, oh, you fail, 275 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 5: So I'm like, okay, I mean I watched Perry Mason 276 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 5: when I was a kid. So if I failed a 277 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 5: lot to take the test and I was picked down 278 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 5: on the lineup, what more evidence do you need to 279 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 5: arrest me? But I wasn't arrested. I was arrested in 280 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 5: November thirtieth for this case. 281 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 3: After Daryl Brown gives that polygraph statement where according to 282 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 3: the police, he was truthful about everything. On the thirtieth 283 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 3: they put Daryl Brown in lineups. But what are you 284 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 3: putting somebody in lineups for if they've told the truth 285 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 3: about everything implicating another individual. 286 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: That's a good question. If I'm following this correctly, then 287 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: they must have suspected that he might have been the guy, right. 288 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 3: It doesn't make sense to conclude otherwise. Either he's telling 289 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 3: the truth about everything when he implicates Carl, and okay, 290 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 3: authorize the arrest. Certainly, there's no basis the next day 291 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 3: to put Darryl Brown in lineups unless you're saying maybe 292 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 3: he's still not telling the truth about everything, and instead 293 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 3: what they do is revert to tunnel vision and authorize 294 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 3: and arrest for Karl based entirely. This is disputed entirely 295 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 3: on the accusation of Daryl Brown, his second differing sworn statement, 296 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 3: his fourth or fifth differing documented statement since the murder. 297 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 3: It's just a travesty. 298 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: Freedom Agenda is a proud sponsor of this episode of 299 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. Freedom Agenda is led by people directly impacted 300 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: by incarceration, and they're organizing to get Mayor Eric Adams 301 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: to follow the law and shut down Rikers Island. Right now, 302 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,119 Speaker 1: thousands of people are awaiting trial there in life threatening conditions. 303 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: Freedom Agenda is committed to creating a safer and more 304 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: just city by winning investments in long neglected communities, protecting 305 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: the rights of people involved in the criminal legal system, 306 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: and ending the cycle of violence that Rikers perpetuates. To 307 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: learn more about the campaign to Close Rikers and to 308 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: sign up for Freedom Agenda's mailing list to Campaign to 309 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: Close Rankers dot org, slash, get involved or followed a 310 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: Freedom Agenda and why on social media. 311 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 5: When you coming off the street, you know you gotta 312 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 5: fight within Rockets Island because that's how it was. So 313 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 5: it can be really alled on the person that if 314 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 5: you're not really up to it, and I was the 315 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 5: type of person that I could defend myself, so I 316 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 5: had no problem like that. You just waiting to go 317 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 5: to trial and prove my innocence. 318 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: So nine months later, September eighth, nineteen eighty, you go 319 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: to trial. I'm assuming you were represented by a public defender. 320 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 5: Yes, I was rep presented by how it listwise, the 321 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 5: guy come in tell me, oh, I never lost a 322 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 5: murder case. 323 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 2: I didn't know you didn't have one until you had minds. 324 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 3: There were some very serious discovery issues here, whether you 325 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 3: want to blame it on trial council or whether you 326 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 3: want to blame it on the prosecution. But two things 327 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 3: that we now know happened just prior to trial. There's 328 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 3: no indication that Carl knew at the time of trial. 329 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 3: It's that Shanina Sperlin shows up at the Brooklyn DIA's 330 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 3: office and tells Ada Barbara Newman, the trial prosecutor, that 331 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 3: he recognized a possible perpetrator in one of the lineups 332 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 3: he viewed. But it's not the Carl Miller lineup. It's 333 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 3: the Darryl Brown lineup. The other thing that is potentially 334 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 3: but we're not certain, disclosed on August twenty eighth, nineteen eighty, 335 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 3: about a week or so before Carl's trial starts, is 336 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 3: that Ada Newman discloses that an individual named Barry Lee 337 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 3: Jackson had been identified from photographs on or before October 338 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 3: twenty seventh, nineteen seventy nine, which is just two days 339 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 3: after the murder, and in writing whether this was received 340 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 3: by mister weiss Wesser or not, or whether it was 341 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 3: taken as legitimate or not, she tells him that if 342 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 3: he lacked any further discovery, he should tell her so 343 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 3: she could provide it. Now, that's kind of a catch 344 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 3: twenty two, and it's not how discovery works. He can't 345 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 3: tell her if he's lacking something that he doesn't know about. 346 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 3: And you're now on the eve of trial. 347 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: There were several other important Brady violations, including more alternate 348 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: suspects like a man named Derek Peterson, as well as 349 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: a guy named Willie Easterling who had been seen trying 350 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: to sell religious artifacts in the area. Police reports did 351 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: not demonstrate any follow up and were not shared with 352 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: the defense either, and this conduct was only compounded by 353 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: presenting the ever changing testimony of Daryl Brown, this time 354 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: at trial He said that he followed Carl that morning, 355 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: saw him grab Achanoff, who screamed before he was shot, 356 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: then saw him run off to five sixty five Crown 357 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: Street with the prayer case, and Carl's attorney did lean 358 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: heavily on the inconsistencies between Brown's version of events and 359 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: undisputed facts of the crime, as well as how Brown's 360 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: testimony may have resulted from pressure from investigators. 361 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 3: Detective Sorrentino, who's the assigned detective here, testifies that he 362 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 3: never told Darryl Brown he was a suspect, which, as 363 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 3: we noted earlier, if after the fact of him giving 364 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 3: you a completely truthful statement, you're placing him in lineups, 365 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 3: there's only one reason to play somebody in a lineup 366 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 3: as the subject. Second, the court prohibited Carl's council from 367 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 3: questioning Detective Sorrentino about whether he had ever put psychological 368 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 3: pressure on a suspect. And there's one more thing. Darryl 369 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:32,959 Speaker 3: Brown's account of Rabbi Akanov's suitcase is not accurate. His 370 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 3: prayer bag was a distinctive dark blue color, and in 371 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 3: the early unrecorded police statement that Daryl Brown gives describing 372 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 3: this bag, it is a dark blue bag, but by 373 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 3: the time he gets a trial, it's a clear bag 374 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 3: that he can see into and actually tell the type 375 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 3: of felt material inside, and more concerning it indicates to 376 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 3: me one of two possible conclusions. One Daryl Brown saw 377 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 3: inside that bag or touched it. Two Daryl Brown was 378 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 3: told how that bag looked after he gave independent statements. 379 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 3: Neither of them tend to support the reliability of the 380 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 3: verdict in this case. 381 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: Darryl Brown also testified that Rabbi Achanov made no attempt 382 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: to block the bullet with his hand, which was contradicted 383 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: by the state's forensic pathologist, citing the black powder stain 384 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: and stippling on the back of the rabbi's hand. So, 385 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 1: while the defense seated doubt about the state's witness, the 386 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: state attacked Carl's alibi witness, his daughter's mother, Joanne Davis. 387 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 6: From everything in the transcript, everything on the record, all 388 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 6: the materials we have, the only indication we can really 389 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 6: come to is that Carl's alibi witness was really just 390 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 6: spoken to in order to try and get impeachment material 391 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 6: for her. 392 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 4: And you know something. 393 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 6: Else that we see as well too, is that false 394 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 6: statements are attributed to Carl's alibi witness, which is some 395 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 6: thing that we very frequently see in these cases as well. 396 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 6: You have unendorsed statements, you have unsigned statements. Then at 397 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 6: trial it's the detective's word against the witnesses word. 398 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: In this case, the lead detective Sorrentino, testified that Miss 399 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 1: Davis said that she saw Karl with the thirty two 400 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: caliber pistol, the kind of gun used to kill Achanov, 401 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: even though Miss Davis denied ever saying that, but rather 402 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: that she'd only seen him with a toy gun. In addition, 403 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: Sorrentino testified that Miss Davis's mother had said that Carl 404 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: was not at her home the morning of the murder. 405 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 3: To the credit of Joanne Davis, she's actually asked under 406 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 3: oath if her mother is stupid. She's told that Carl 407 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 3: supposedly failed to polygraph, She's told that he may never 408 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 3: come home, and she doesn't change her account. 409 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: The state referred to Miss Davis's story as concocted, and 410 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: they told the jury to quote wonder about the sense 411 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: of someone who gave birth at seventeen. 412 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 6: Wooh credit ability was unborn to being attacked by the 413 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 6: police and prosecutors. 414 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: The state made note that the main issue of the 415 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: case was whether Daryl Brown had seen the shooting, calling 416 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: the actual eyewitnesses nothing more than quote distractions unquote, and 417 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: that eyewitness Louis Fazzio quote didn't add anything to the 418 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: case unquote. They had to take this tact after all, 419 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: because Fazio was no help to them. 420 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 6: Fazio was initially subpoenaed by the people, right, So he 421 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 6: gets into the courtroom and he tells his wife that 422 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 6: Carl is too broad to have been the man that 423 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 6: he saw. 424 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,239 Speaker 3: As a result, Adia Newman doesn't call him, but the 425 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 3: defense does. 426 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 6: He reiterated that he made this remark that Carl was 427 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 6: too broad to have been the person that he saw, 428 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 6: and he also basically said that he was not able 429 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 6: to identify the person who he saw in the courtroom, 430 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,719 Speaker 6: So meaning right, it's not Carl. 431 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 3: But the fact that Ada k Newman had subpoenaed him 432 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 3: makes two things ridiculous. She asks him, mister Fozzio, were 433 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 3: you wearing your glasses, as if this is supposed to 434 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 3: impugne his account, even though she was going to call 435 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 3: him as her witness previously when she thought maybe it 436 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 3: wouldn't denigrate her case. But second of all, how you 437 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 3: could get up in summation and say he couldn't add 438 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 3: anything to the case when you were calling him in 439 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 3: a case that did not have a ton of witnesses testifying. 440 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 3: He's one of two people that indisputably saw the purp 441 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 3: running from this crime scene. 442 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 1: So Fasio was positive for the defense while Joeanne Davis 443 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 1: was brutally attacked. But then Carl's lawyer does something absolutely 444 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: insane at the end of the trial. 445 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 3: It's absurd. It's in his own summation where the verdict 446 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 3: is going to come down to a credibility contest between 447 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 3: his civilian aliby witness and the sole witness for the prosecution. 448 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 3: And first the judge says, actually says on the record, well, 449 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 3: it's probably improper for me to express an opinion, but 450 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 3: I'm going to say it. I think the alibi has 451 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 3: been pretty well discredited. And instead of mister Weiswasser standing 452 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 3: up and advocating for his client, he says, quote, I 453 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 3: wish I never heard the word alibi. And in his 454 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 3: own summation he points out supposed holes in miss Davis's 455 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 3: testimony denigrator is a witness while calling Detective Sorrentino an 456 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 3: excellent officer. It's a complete abdication of his duty to 457 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 3: his client. 458 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 5: He didn't really do anything in defense of me. He 459 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 5: really didn't and a juri or eleven whites and one black. 460 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 5: It was over two hundred asiitics inside and outside the court. 461 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 2: The deck was stacked against me. 462 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: Predictably, the jury went out and they came back with 463 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: guilty on all accounts right felony, murder, robbery in the 464 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: first degree, in criminal possession of a weapon in the 465 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: second degree. 466 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 5: When I was found guilty, it was like, Wow, are 467 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 5: you serious? You're gonna believe this guy that I killed 468 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 5: this man? A lot of things was running through my head. 469 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 5: I'm not gonna be raise my son. I'm not gonna 470 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 5: be able to raise my daughter, you know, my sisters, 471 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 5: my family. 472 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: So it's a whole lot going through a whole lot. 473 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 5: I'm put on that bus to go up to Elmira. 474 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 5: It's like the reality starts sitting there. 475 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 2: What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? 476 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 5: Get caught up in a lot of negative stuff that 477 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 5: goes on in prison, or you're gonna get yourself up 478 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 5: out of there for time being. You get caught up 479 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 5: in a little bit of the negativity stuff to stimulate 480 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 5: yourself from the reality of being in prison. That's something 481 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 5: that I did to a couple of old timers. Pulled 482 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 5: me to the side and said, hey, look, we read 483 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 5: about your case. It don't seem right. You need to 484 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 5: get your butt in a little library while your indictment 485 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 5: make it's still fresh. 486 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 2: I had a little pill of attorney. He put together some. 487 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,719 Speaker 5: Type of brief that was straight up be at and 488 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 5: I wound up doing time, just trying to seek help 489 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 5: from different people. Just keep pushing, went to school, got 490 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 5: a ged legal research certificate, still trying to prove my innocence. 491 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 5: Nobody was listening to pills. Was denied time come for 492 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 5: your first parole board. I go in there, continue to 493 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 5: maintain my innocence. That was in two thousand and four, 494 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 5: Go back in two thousand and six, come back in 495 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 5: two thousand and eight, same thing, go back in twenty ten. 496 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 5: And what was presented to the senior parole officer at 497 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 5: the time is that Shanina Sperling and Louis Faizio did 498 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 5: not identify me. The senior parole officer. He said, Yo, 499 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 5: you know, they always sent up transcripts of the sentencing, 500 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 5: but they never sent up stuff like this. And he said, wow, 501 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 5: I never knew this. So he said, the next parole 502 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 5: hearing come up, I think you got a good shot 503 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 5: with this commission of someone. Set your paperwork in front. 504 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,959 Speaker 5: I just continue saying what you're saying, maintaining your innocent 505 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 5: don't change, and I didn't, and the lo and behold 506 00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 5: I was parole. 507 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: So I kind of glossed over a little bit over 508 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: thirty years that you spent in prison. Right? Was it 509 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: that long? 510 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 2: Thirty one? 511 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: Thirty one years? 512 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 2: Right? 513 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: It's amazing that you survived, and that you seem to 514 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: really have survived with your spirit intact. And it's also 515 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: incredible that you were able to go to the parole 516 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 1: board and do exactly opposite of what people are advised 517 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: to do. 518 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 2: Right. 519 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: They want to hear remorse, they want to hear that 520 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 1: sort of narrative. Right, So for them to be able 521 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,239 Speaker 1: to act the way that they did shows that they 522 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: must have known what you had known all along, and 523 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: what everyone should have known all along, which is that 524 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: you were actually innocent. 525 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 5: Being released after thirty one years. It was surreal. It 526 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 5: was wow, I'm walking the street. Oh man, what am 527 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 5: I going to do? Okay, gotta go see parole. That's 528 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 5: kind of frustrating because you're still on the supervision. Came out, 529 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 5: got married, reconnected. What did I miss? I missed my 530 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 5: daughter's first time walking. I missed my daughter's first grade. 531 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 5: I missed my son's first grade. I missed my son's 532 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 5: first baseball game. I missed so many things that you 533 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 5: cannot get back. So when you come out, where do 534 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 5: you pick up from my daughter? Because she was only 535 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 5: a couple of months before I left. My son was two, 536 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 5: So you look at the time. So you're saying thirty 537 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 5: one and thirty three. These are young adults that have 538 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 5: lived a life. So how could you interject as a father? 539 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 5: Because this was taken away from me. So you do 540 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 5: the best that you can. And that's all I've been 541 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 5: doing since I've been out, was reconnecting with them, connected 542 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 5: with other family members and things of that nature, and 543 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 5: then got back into proving my innocence. And that's when 544 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 5: I continue doing what I was doing. And I wrote 545 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 5: to different people after Ken Thompson had set up the 546 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 5: wrongful conviction unit that he has in the Brooklyn District 547 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 5: Attorney's office, and I had contacted them, and I contacted James, 548 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 5: and this is where we're at now. 549 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 3: So where we are right now is we had cooperated 550 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 3: for a bit with the conviction review unit here in Brooklyn. 551 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 3: We'd received some materials we intend to use in support 552 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,479 Speaker 3: of emotion at some point. Ultimately, after they interviewed Carl 553 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 3: and some of the witnesses in the case declined to 554 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 3: be interviewed or could not be located, they closed out 555 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 3: the case. But then this month they reached back out 556 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 3: and said that there has been a recent and unexpected 557 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 3: development in the investigation of Carl's case and that they're 558 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 3: going to reopen the investigation, which I don't believe I've 559 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 3: heard of them doing in any other case. 560 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: After we wrapped our first interview, we got a call 561 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: from James and Carrissa asking us to hold on production 562 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: until they could meet with the Brooklyn DA's office. It 563 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: turns out that back in nineteen seventy nine, a guy 564 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: named Robert Simms gave a statement to corroborate Brown about 565 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: Carl's alleged statement at the Falafel or Pizza store. Now, 566 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: in October twenty twenty three, some new evidence came to 567 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: light about Robert Simms and his wife. 568 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 3: Linda Simms, the broken cru in the course of their reinvestigation, 569 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 3: had visited her house looking to speak with her husband, 570 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 3: Robert Simms, and left the card there. And what we've 571 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 3: been told is that Linda Simms, the wife, January of 572 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 3: twenty twenty three, reached out to her sister and sent 573 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 3: a picture of the assistant's business card that had been 574 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 3: left at the door. And when her sister asked, well, 575 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 3: what is this about, she responded, well, google Rabbi Crown 576 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 3: Heights nineteen seventy nine, and the sister, Teresa, found articles 577 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 3: on Rabbi Akinov's murder. And she asked her sister, Linda, well, 578 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 3: what did you do, and Linda responded that's what I did. 579 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 3: And Teresa, caring about her sister, said well, what you 580 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 3: need to do is get yourself an attorney and turn 581 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 3: yourself in. And Linda for many months did not heed 582 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 3: that advice. So by September ish, it seems to be Teresa, 583 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 3: this was weighing very heavily on her contacted the Brooklyn 584 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 3: DIA's office and that's what spurred on the reopening of 585 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 3: the investigation. 586 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: The confession from Linda to her sister Teresa continued implicating 587 00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: Robert Simms. 588 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 3: Linda said, I did that, and then Web meaning her 589 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 3: and Robert, brought it up to our father. He was 590 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 3: very pissed off and sent me down south. Now there's 591 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 3: a fair inference that she was saying that both of 592 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 3: us did this. And we now have additional evidence that 593 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 3: Linda Simms's father, who was murdered in December nineteen eighty, 594 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 3: shortly after Carl's trial, that at various points throughout nineteen 595 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 3: seventy nine and nineteen eighty, both Linda and Robert Simms 596 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 3: had possession of his handgun. And additional information that has 597 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 3: come out about Robert has certainly changed our assessment of him. Specifically, 598 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 3: when he was interviewed by the cru in relation to 599 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 3: Carl's case, they did not know that in the early 600 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 3: two thousands he was carrying on this relationship outside of 601 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 3: his marriage with Linda. She was a twenty something beautician, 602 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 3: they had a child together, and she was found disposed 603 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 3: of in a very rough fashion in an abandoned building. 604 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 3: And Robert was brought to trial in Brooklyn for the 605 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 3: murder and somehow acquitted. Obviously, the file is sealed following 606 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 3: the acquittal, but it sounds like the only reason for 607 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 3: the acquittal was that Robert pointed the finger to friends 608 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 3: who had helped him dispose of the body and claimed 609 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 3: that one of them was the actual murderer. 610 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: So what was the guy's name who took the fall? 611 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 3: Meltreus Walker? 612 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: Is he still serving time? 613 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 3: He's out now? He essentially says he came over to 614 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 3: the house the woman had been shot four times and 615 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 3: Robert said, I need you to help me take care 616 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 3: of this. 617 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 2: Now. 618 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 3: What's even more interesting here is before the Brooklyn DIA's office, 619 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 3: the cru had learned through Theresa lind his sister, about 620 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 3: Robert's prior charge that he was acquitted of. They interviewed 621 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 3: him and he said he did not want to talk 622 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 3: about his prior case, which he referred to as sort 623 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 3: of a little incident, I believe, but he didn't want 624 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 3: to get into the details. He said that he and 625 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 3: Daryl Brown, the sole witness against Karl, had been best 626 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 3: friends for years up until that point, at which time 627 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 3: they had a falling out because he asked Daryl Brown 628 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 3: for some help with something, and Darryl Brown's response was, 629 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 3: who the f do you think you are? John Gottie 630 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 3: or something, And they haven't really spoken. Since it sounds 631 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 3: like Daryl was asked to do some dirty work for Robert. 632 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: Not certainly plausible that Daryl Brown may have been responding 633 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: to a request from Robert Simms for yet another big favor. 634 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 3: Going back to the original investigation, the statement attributed to 635 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 3: Robert by police was that Robert and Daryl Brown a 636 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 3: day or a few days before Rabbi Akinov's murder had 637 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 3: been in a pizza shop on Kingston Avenue and seeing 638 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 3: a Jewish man with a prayer bag full of money, 639 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 3: and according to the police report, Robert and Daryl were 640 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,479 Speaker 3: thinking of robbing this man but didn't and when they 641 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 3: later saw Carl Miller, they said, here's what we saw, 642 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 3: and according to the police report, Carl said, oh, you 643 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 3: should have ripped him off. Now, Carl has always denied 644 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 3: making that statement. We have nothing from Daryl Brown on 645 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 3: that statement at trial. We have him in a police 646 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 3: report giving a different version of that. What Robert Simms 647 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 3: did admit to us and to the cru is that 648 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 3: he was looking to get one of those bags he 649 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 3: was interested in robbing somebody. He denies that they had 650 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 3: any conversation where Carl Miller said, yeah, you should have 651 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 3: taken this guy off. And as Carl has said repeatedly, 652 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,800 Speaker 3: his response to that would have been, are you crazy. 653 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 3: You're right across the street from the JDL and you're 654 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 3: going to rob a guy like this. That's ridiculous. 655 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: So where does the case stand now? 656 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 3: With the cru they have turned things over to us. 657 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 3: We're gathering information and evidence to put a motion into court. 658 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 3: We've had several people talk to us and give us 659 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 3: additional evidence. We're feeling good that we can get ourselves 660 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:52,879 Speaker 3: a hearing where we can subpoena some of these people 661 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 3: and get them in to give sworn testimony so we 662 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 3: can weed out the truth here. 663 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 6: Absolutely, and now we're working with the CiU. Clearly there 664 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 6: are ways and avenues for us to pursue. 665 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 4: We just need people to speak up about it. 666 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 2: Karl deserves it. 667 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 3: Rabbi Akanov deserves to have the right person convicted of 668 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 3: this crime. This is a case that is based on 669 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 3: one person, Daryl Brown his word. We're not here to 670 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 3: judge you. Somebody was already judged in this case, and 671 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 3: we submit that it was wrongful. Reach out to us. 672 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 3: We'll talk to you. This isn't a witch hunt or something. 673 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,320 Speaker 3: We just want the truth. We're at eighty six Livingston 674 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 3: Street in Brooklyn. We want to get to the bottom 675 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:35,839 Speaker 3: of this. 676 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: So we'll definitely have your contact info length in the 677 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: episode description, and with that we're going to go to 678 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: closing arguments, where first of all, I just want to 679 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: thank you for joining us, and now I'm going to 680 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: shut my microphone off, kick back of my chair with 681 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: my headphones on, and just listen to anything else that 682 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: you feel is left to be said. So let's start 683 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: with James, go to Carissa, and then finish it off 684 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: with you call. 685 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 3: One thing that I think we didn't get into, something 686 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 3: that we only learned after we started cooperating with the 687 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 3: cru in this case, is that one of the people 688 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 3: that we've seen pop up in a lot of these 689 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 3: cases is a gentleman that your viewers are certainly familiar with, 690 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 3: the detective Lewis Scarcella, and he it just so happens 691 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 3: pops up in this case for reasons that have not 692 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,399 Speaker 3: been revealed to us. Two days after the murder, then 693 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:34,760 Speaker 3: Anti Crime Officer Lewis Scarcella is interviewed by the assisting 694 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 3: detective Viola, and we have no information about that. But 695 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 3: we do have information that former detective Scarcella has been 696 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 3: monitoring the progress of this case and the media accounts 697 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 3: of this case. So again I'll say the same thing 698 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 3: I said about Daryl Brown, Missus Scarcella, my phone is on. 699 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,760 Speaker 3: Information is information. We don't know how you factored into this. Again, 700 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 3: I'll say, we're not going to stop. There will be 701 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 3: a resolution here, whether it's through the cru whether it's 702 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 3: filing something. When Carl came to me, I said, we're 703 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,839 Speaker 3: going to fight this case. When Carissa read this case, 704 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 3: she said, we're going to fight this case together. That's 705 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 3: what we do, and we're going to keep moving forward, 706 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 3: reach out. 707 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 6: I'm just really happy that we were able to touch 708 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 6: on the fact that Carl was released on parole notwithstanding 709 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 6: him maintaining his innocence. 710 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 4: I think that is huge. 711 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 6: Anyone who's familiar with the criminal justice process knows that 712 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 6: is huge. 713 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 4: And I really think. 714 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 6: It's no surprise that Fazio played a role and that 715 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 6: so as we're saying, if anyone has any more information 716 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 6: similar to Fazio. 717 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 4: Maybe they saw something just come forward. 718 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 5: I would like to say thank you in the role 719 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 5: for Picent podcast for giving us the opportunity to have 720 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 5: this out there in the public so that people can 721 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 5: see not just me, but they are a whole bunch of 722 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 5: wrongful convictions. And as James and Carissa as stated, it's 723 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 5: people that know me. If you know something that need 724 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 5: to be spoke on, speak on it. That's all I 725 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,280 Speaker 5: have to say. 726 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,800 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen 727 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one 728 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 1: week early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on 729 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team, Connor 730 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as my fellow executive 731 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Cliburn. The music 732 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated 733 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,839 Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all 734 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: social media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. 735 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,840 Speaker 1: You can also follow me on Instagram at It's Jason Flamm. 736 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts 737 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: and association with signal Company number one