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Speaker 1: I'm Manny, I'm Noah.

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Speaker 2: And this is Devin, and this is no such thing.

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Speaker 2: A show where we settle our dumb arguments in yours

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Speaker 2: by actually doing the research. On today's episode, are suburban

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Speaker 2: dogs happier than city dogs.

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Speaker 3: I'm a scientist, so I have a lot of trouble

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Speaker 3: giving black and white answers. But if I had to

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Speaker 3: give a black and white answer, I would say.

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Speaker 4: No, there's no no such thing, no such thing, such thing.

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Speaker 5: Maybe you'll make them back.

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Speaker 2: Hey, uh, this is Devin. Thought this would be a

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Speaker 2: good way to start this week's episode. I'm not walking

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Speaker 2: my dog, Allie. I guess this episode this week is

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Speaker 2: kind of about something I've been grappling with. When I

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Speaker 2: first moved to the city, I was someone who was

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Speaker 2: pretty dead set on not having a dog in the city.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was really sad to see dogs in

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Speaker 2: a city, you know, washing him just like poop on

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Speaker 2: the sidewalk. I thought, like, there's no place for them

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Speaker 2: to really run around. They don't have enough space. The

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Speaker 2: apartments are way too small. But now it's been going

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Speaker 2: on five years now that I myself have owned the

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Speaker 2: dog in the city, and I think, you know, COVID

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Speaker 2: was a pretty good time for me to put aside

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Speaker 2: all these preconceived notions I had about dogs in the

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Speaker 2: city because I was bored in the house. But now

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Speaker 2: I'm starting to think about it, if that was a

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Speaker 2: selfish choice, and if I'm really doing the right thing.

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Speaker 2: I have my dog ally live in the city versus

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Speaker 2: like being in a suburbs, are on a farm somewhere.

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Speaker 4: What made you think about this now?

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Speaker 2: So we're recording this right after the holidays, and around

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Speaker 2: the holidays, you know a lot of people go home

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Speaker 2: and bring their dogs with them. So I've been seeing

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Speaker 2: all these tiktoks. So I'll share this in a group

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Speaker 2: and I'll have you guys describe them. But at a

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Speaker 2: top level, I'll say they these tiktoks are people documenting

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Speaker 2: their city dogs going to the suburbs or let's say

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Speaker 2: a more rural area. This is all right.

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Speaker 4: The onscreen text says, when you bring your dog from

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Speaker 4: your apartment to your parents' house for the holidays, and

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Speaker 4: the dog is kind of running around the house, obviously

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Speaker 4: very excited, wagging its tape, perhaps excited at the amount

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Speaker 4: of space that's in there.

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Speaker 2: That's one let's put that into one bucket of videos.

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Speaker 2: The second bucket of videos I'm seeing are people who

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Speaker 2: are moving from the city to the suburbs a Morboro

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Speaker 2: area lift their dogs. So let me say, you just TikTok.

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Speaker 4: The caption says, introducing our apartment dog to his new

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Speaker 4: house and his very own backyard.

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Speaker 1: And it is really sweet.

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Speaker 4: You can clearly tell that this dog is so happy

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Speaker 4: about the green, the greenery h in the space and

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Speaker 4: just being able to sprint. Like there are no situations

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Speaker 4: in New York that I've seen where a dog can

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Speaker 4: just sprint unless it's at a park.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all flee showers, right, It's only a certain amount of.

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Speaker 4: Time at someone's apartment, you cannot. A dog cannot sprint

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Speaker 4: because it will immediately just be at the other end

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Speaker 4: of it.

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Speaker 2: We're not in that text bragget where you could sprint

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Speaker 2: through the apartment oli tries. But so yeah, this stuff has,

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Speaker 2: you know, has me thinking, I'm at the point of

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Speaker 2: my life where I am in no rush to leave

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Speaker 2: the city. I think I could live the rest of

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Speaker 2: my life living in the city. But I am starting

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Speaker 2: to think and be reminded of this hesitation I had

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Speaker 2: initially about having a dog in a city where it's like,

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Speaker 2: is he actually living a worst off life in the

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Speaker 2: city because I want a dog and I want to

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Speaker 2: live in the city. Would he be happier if I

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Speaker 2: moved to the suburbs?

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Speaker 4: And I don't want to make you feel any worse,

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Speaker 4: but you got a big ass dog.

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Speaker 2: I have a huge dog. And that was another thing

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Speaker 2: that I said. I said, if I'm going to have

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Speaker 2: a dog in a city, he can't be big. But

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Speaker 2: Ali is eighty plus pounds, so he's a big boy.

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Speaker 2: And I do wonder if there's enough room for him here,

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Speaker 2: if he would enjoy life more if we were in

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Speaker 2: the suburbs. Now, Noah, you also have a dog here.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, he he hates the city. He's smaller, he's about

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Speaker 5: thirty pounds. His name is Yeah, his name is riz Rizzo,

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Speaker 5: and we got him a couple of years ago now,

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Speaker 5: and yeah, he's never liked I think he likes us now,

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Speaker 5: but he hasn't liked the city. You can tell he

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Speaker 5: just doesn't like being outside. He's anxious and he's very

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Speaker 5: just like reactive to noise and stuff. Our man's on prozac.

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Speaker 2: Now, yeah, Rozak before which I.

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Speaker 4: Guess helps, but how do you identify that when the

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Speaker 4: dog needs to take that kind of.

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Speaker 5: Medication, like it like he would basically if we take

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Speaker 5: him out on a walk, he would like shut down

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Speaker 5: and like try to just sit and like be really

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Speaker 5: freeze up. And this has helped with that, I think

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Speaker 5: at least. But then you know, we'll take him to

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Speaker 5: Julia's family in Virginia. They have a huge backdoor area

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Speaker 5: fenced in so he can take him off leash and

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Speaker 5: he runs around there and it's like obviously he's having

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Speaker 5: way more fight versus like yeah versus like we'll try

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Speaker 5: to take him to Prospect Park or something, but he's

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Speaker 5: so nervous. Just it's more like the walk over.

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Speaker 1: There, it's ten to.

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Speaker 5: Fifteen minutes, and he just gets so worked up in

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Speaker 5: there that then like we get there and he just

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Speaker 5: kind of wants to just go home. But when you

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Speaker 5: do take him to that backyard area, he's like running

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Speaker 5: around and doing kind of what we just saw in

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Speaker 5: the stick Tuck, like something clearly happier. Yeah, and just

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Speaker 5: like just more relaxed and exploring.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I guess the question is, knowing what we

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Speaker 2: know now, do we think suburban dogs on a wole

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Speaker 2: are happier than city dogs. Many will start with you

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Speaker 2: since you don't have any dog in this way.

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Speaker 4: Okay, very nice, very nice. Yeah, just as someone who's

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Speaker 4: like so removed from this. To me, it's kind of

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Speaker 4: a no brainer, like, yeah, the big the more grass,

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Speaker 4: the more space, the dogs are probably gonna be happier.

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Speaker 4: But I don't own a dog. Maybe, but if I

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Speaker 4: had owned a dog, there'd be more new to it.

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Speaker 4: To me, it seems like definitely.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I you know, I think the reason why we're

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Speaker 2: here is because I think I agree.

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Speaker 4: Another question for me is like, all right, if it

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Speaker 4: does turn out to be the case that suburb dogs

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Speaker 4: are way happier, at what point is it unethical to

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Speaker 4: have a dog in the city.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, it's a really good point not to.

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Speaker 4: Put my two dog owning friends on the spot that

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Speaker 4: I'm just saying, like I'm not I don't think dogs

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Speaker 4: can't be happy in the city, No, no, but are

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Speaker 4: they supposed to be here?

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Speaker 5: My suspicion would be overall most dogs would be happier

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Speaker 5: with more space, more quiet. Generally, I like dogs are individual,

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Speaker 5: like not just be a dog oled lover, but it's

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Speaker 5: like they are different. So like some dogs can't even

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Speaker 5: see other dogs that they're gonna flip out, allowing that,

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Speaker 5: like every dog is an individual, I do wonder kind of,

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Speaker 5: all right, if all the basic needs are met, they're

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Speaker 5: getting attention, food, and every everything else that makes him happy.

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Speaker 5: I don't know, if you know, on a grander scale,

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Speaker 5: if one year in the city would be that much

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Speaker 5: worse necessarily than one year in the country, because like, I.

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Speaker 1: Don't think like my dog's miserable.

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Speaker 5: I know if we moved next month, you know, upstate

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Speaker 5: or something and had a backyard, I would see different

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Speaker 5: behavior from him that I would interpret as being happier.

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Speaker 5: You know, Like, I don't know if someone could make

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Speaker 5: an argument that the city is better for any dog.

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Speaker 2: After the break, we go inside the mind of a

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Speaker 2: dog and see what they see, smell.

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Speaker 3: And know.

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Speaker 2: Okay, we're back.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm Noah.

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Speaker 2: This is Devin. So last time we talked, we were

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Speaker 2: trying to figure out if dogs in the city are

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Speaker 2: living worse off lives than dogs who live in the suburbs.

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Speaker 2: So as I was looking into people who study dogs,

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Speaker 2: there was one name that I kept seeing an article

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Speaker 2: after article.

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Speaker 3: I'm Alexandra Horowitz. I'm a senior research fellow of the

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Speaker 3: Dog Cognition Lab at Barnard College.

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Speaker 2: So Alexandra is one of the leading dog cognition experts

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Speaker 2: in North America. If you read anything about dog cognition,

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Speaker 2: it's either a study she's done, or she's being asked

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Speaker 2: to interpret a study that someone else has done. And

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Speaker 2: she's also written an entire book on it. It's called

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Speaker 2: Inside of a Dog What Dogs See, Smell and Know.

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Speaker 2: So as I was reading through her book to prepare

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Speaker 2: for this interview, I quickly realized that I knew very

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Speaker 2: little about dogs. You know, I've grown up with dogs

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Speaker 2: my whole life, and I've thought I knew a lot

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Speaker 2: about them. So before we get to our answer, I

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Speaker 2: feel like it would be helpful for us to do

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Speaker 2: a little spark note version going through the book and

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Speaker 2: learning a bit more about what dogs see, smell.

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Speaker 5: And now.

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Speaker 2: Chapter one, how wolves became Dogs.

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Speaker 3: The story of domestication is actually constantly being evolved as

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Speaker 3: we have new or more powerful ways to study what

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Speaker 3: happened thousands of years ago. Our best guest now, based

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Speaker 3: on genetic evidence, is that dogs diverged from some ancestor wolf,

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Speaker 3: an ancestor of the current gray wolf that you see

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Speaker 3: in North America. Probably fourteen to twenty thousand years ago.

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Speaker 3: There were probably multiple domestication events, meaning different places at

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Speaker 3: different times, and maybe even repeatedly in a place where

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Speaker 3: there was a group of these proto dogs or like

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Speaker 3: friendly wolves who started to distinguish themselves from the other

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Speaker 3: wolves and started to affiliate with people, probably breeding intentional

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Speaker 3: breeding where I picked two dogs I like, and I

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Speaker 3: make them breed and I get a new dog that

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Speaker 3: has all the great features of those two dogs. That

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Speaker 3: didn't happen for quite a long time. It was basically

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Speaker 3: just self selection on the part of these wolves who

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Speaker 3: wanted to be around people, and also some self selection

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Speaker 3: of people who were agreeable to breeding around these wolves.

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Speaker 3: That started domestication, and eventually it became purebred breeding, and

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Speaker 3: now you have pugs.

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Speaker 4: I'm having trouble imagining the first guy who was like,

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Speaker 4: I need this thing to be mine to a fucking wolf.

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Speaker 4: What was wrong with that person?

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Speaker 2: Wolves are kind of cute.

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Speaker 4: No no, no, they look great. They look sick, But

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Speaker 4: I'm saying that I want one, but I wouldn't try

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Speaker 4: to do it.

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Speaker 5: It's you know, survival of the fittest sort of thing

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Speaker 5: where you would be doing a lot more crazy up

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Speaker 5: in your life. So yes, you would feel maybe more

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Speaker 5: equipped to even tackle that sort of exactly point no

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Speaker 5: offense bottom.

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Speaker 1: You know, you want to be able to go out

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Speaker 1: there and you're a different type of made.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like we had real men back then, none

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Speaker 4: taking I've got the softest hands of anyone I know.

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Speaker 2: Chapter two, Making your Dog so jumping off of pugs.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: Dog breeds are always a big topic of discussion. We

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Speaker 2: as a culture love to associate certain breeds with certain things,

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Speaker 2: so we think about like how pitbulls have such a

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Speaker 2: bad rap excel bullies And she has interesting analogy in

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Speaker 2: her book where she talks about how certain breeds have

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Speaker 2: certain tendencies and she compares that to addiction and humans.

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Speaker 1: M I'm intrigued.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder if it was the best malogy to use.

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Speaker 3: But you know, people like to think that when you

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Speaker 3: get a pure bred dog, you're getting a kind of

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Speaker 3: guaranteed dog whose behavior is guaranteed. You know, if you

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Speaker 3: want a dog to herd your sheep, you're not going

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Speaker 3: to get yourself like a Maltese. Right, you're going to

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Speaker 3: get yourself a certain kind of dog who is bred

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Speaker 3: to herd sheep. But no dog comes out of the

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Speaker 3: womb hurting sheep. Right, They just have a propensity to

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Speaker 3: do types of things which to us looks like hurting sheep,

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Speaker 3: right to respond to human signaling, to be sensitive to

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Speaker 3: the motion of animals that are sort of sheep sized,

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Speaker 3: to want to kind of get them all in one place,

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Speaker 3: and importantly not to predate them, not to kill them.

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Speaker 3: So it has that tendency, you still have to shape

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Speaker 3: that tendency. So, for instance, if a sheep dog never

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Speaker 3: meets any sheep, they might do sort of hurting like

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Speaker 3: things with little kids or with people who enter your house,

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Speaker 3: but it's never going to look like sheep hurting, and

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Speaker 3: of course they'll never heard sheep, you know.

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Speaker 6: And similarly with our.

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Speaker 3: Genetic tendencies, we might have tendencies towards certain behaviors, but

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Speaker 3: if you're never exposed to any instances of that behavior,

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Speaker 3: that tendency won't manifest in the way it will somebody

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Speaker 3: else who is exposed to it. Right, it does have

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Speaker 3: an opportunity to take lots of an addictive substance. That

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Speaker 3: person if they have a tendency to addiction, is more

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Speaker 3: likely to become addicted to the substance. But if they

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Speaker 3: never have the exposure, they're not gonna become addicted. For

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Speaker 3: dogs like pitbulls, you know, people think, well, that dog

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Speaker 3: is bred to be aggressive by the way. It's pitbulls now,

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Speaker 3: But it used to be Doberman pincher, used to be Rottweilers,

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Speaker 3: used to be German shepherds, right. We just that says

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Speaker 3: something about us, not about the dogs. And what it

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Speaker 3: says about us is that we have used these dogs

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Speaker 3: in ways which are occasionally aggressive, and therefore the whole

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Speaker 3: breed gets marked as being aggressive. But around the turn

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Speaker 3: of the twentieth century, piples were nannies for people's kids.

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Speaker 3: They were seen as gentle, sweet dogs. The dog hasn't

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Speaker 3: changed that much.

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Speaker 2: I think we've both done the DNA test for our dogs.

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Speaker 5: Yea.

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Speaker 2: In her books she has this a footnote that's basically

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Speaker 2: calling out the accuracy of these tests. Sounds a bit

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Speaker 2: word because these tests are not exactly cheap. It's spent

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Speaker 2: a little bit of money on it. So did I

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Speaker 2: waste my money getting a DNA test for my dog?

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Speaker 2: And then like oh, I know he's some sort of shepherd.

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Speaker 2: Makes I want to see what all the other breeds are. Well.

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Speaker 3: I wrote it in two thousand and seven, it came

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Speaker 3: out in two thousand and nine. I'm revising it now,

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Speaker 3: and the DNA tests have advanced considerably since that's I

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Speaker 3: don't think you wasted your money, But it depends on

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Speaker 3: what you wanted with that. If you have a very

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Speaker 3: unusual breed or a dog where nobody else with that

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Speaker 3: dog has submitted their dog for DNA analysis, you probably

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Speaker 3: wouldn't get as a result on your dog that it

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Speaker 3: is that breed. They're just looking at similarities of the

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Speaker 3: genome to other breeds they have on file, and so

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Speaker 3: even you if you get your result and it's like

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Speaker 3: a shepherd pity mix, let's say I don't know correctly, yeah,

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Speaker 3: And then what it's saying is like, you know, some

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Speaker 3: of the genome is very close to shepherds, other shepherds.

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Speaker 3: We have on file people who say they have a

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Speaker 3: German Shepherd or a Dutch shepherd, and some of the

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Speaker 3: genome is close to these other dogs genomes. So we

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Speaker 3: have on file where we know it's a Staffordshire bull

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Speaker 3: Terrier or some other dog which we call a pity,

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Speaker 3: and it's similar in that way. But that doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: that the dad of your or the mom was a

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Speaker 3: pity and the dad was a.

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Speaker 6: Shepherd, right.

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Speaker 3: It means that, like, overall they're closely. They're like they've

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Speaker 3: got cousins, they got similar to aunts and uncles, and right,

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Speaker 3: it's most similar.

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Speaker 2: To So she is like, you should think about these

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Speaker 2: tests as like ancestry dot com and not like paternity tests.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Chapter three, Training Dogs, there is this world of dog

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Speaker 2: TikTok that is really upset with the current way that

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Speaker 2: people treat dogs. They don't like this new what they

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Speaker 2: call gentle parenting of dogs. Right, they're like, why you

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Speaker 2: shouldn't let your dog in your bed. You gotta be

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Speaker 2: the alpha the pack. You don't show the dog whose

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Speaker 2: boss dog is gonna come for you exactly. But she

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Speaker 2: says that this you need to be alpha thing is

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Speaker 2: actually based on a huge misconception with wolves.

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Speaker 3: I wrote the book like over fifteen years ago, and

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Speaker 3: this idea is still really sticky idea. It came from

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Speaker 3: where it was popularized by Sasar Milan.

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Speaker 7: When good dogs go bad, there's one man who's their

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Speaker 7: best friend sees you a line.

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Speaker 2: No dog is too much for me to handle.

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Speaker 3: Who talks about that as part of his philosophy that

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Speaker 3: wolves live impacts where there's an alpha, and so again

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Speaker 3: looking at natural behavior of relatives, which makes sense in

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Speaker 3: some cases for some reasons, and saying like, so in

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Speaker 3: your pack, in your house, you have to be the

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Speaker 3: alpha of your dog.

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Speaker 6: Otherwise they al sort of be the alpha of you.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, it's super wrong. And what's wrong is, you know,

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Speaker 3: at the time, that's how we thought wolf packs lived.

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Speaker 3: That's because it was hard to study wolves in the

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Speaker 3: wild because we didn't This was pre GPS, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: So people studying wolves studied captive wolves, and in particular,

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Speaker 3: a guy named Schenkel studied a bunch of captive wolves

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Speaker 3: who were just coincidentally, I guess, mostly like teenage male wolves,

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Speaker 3: and they were captive, and they were in a small enclosure.

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Speaker 3: And what he observed through looking at their behavior is

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Speaker 3: that they formed a little bit of a dominance hierarchy

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Speaker 3: where there were some wolves who called them the alphas,

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Speaker 3: who would eat first right, who'd get the first new resource, etc.

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Speaker 3: Could sleep where they wanted, et cetera. And then there

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Speaker 3: were other wolves who kind of like tried to fight

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Speaker 3: them for that position when they were prepared, sort of

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Speaker 3: the beta wolves.

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Speaker 6: So it was a power struggle, is what he saw.

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Speaker 3: But as it turned out, when people started actually studying

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Speaker 3: wolves in the wild, they observed that actually wolves live

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Speaker 3: in family packs. They're not a bunch of teenage boys

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Speaker 3: hanging out together in a small space. Instead, they're families,

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Speaker 3: which is great actually makes dogs. It easy for dogs

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Speaker 3: to kind of fit in our family where if there

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Speaker 3: is an alpha, that's just the parents. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 3: parents aren't alphas in a way. They sort of control,

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Speaker 3: but they don't control through violence, and the young are

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Speaker 3: not trying to overtake the parents ever, right, Like the

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Speaker 3: parent's control is about like keeping the family unit together. There,

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Speaker 3: the parents' control is because they know how things go.

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Speaker 3: So wolves live in family units with their young and

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Speaker 3: maybe they're young's young and there is no dominance hierarchy

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Speaker 3: that the way that people are thinking. So the alpha

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Speaker 3: tack idea that then we should bring this antiquated idea

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Speaker 3: of wolf behavior into our living with dogs is bananas

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Speaker 3: at best, it's just a weird idea. At worst, it's

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Speaker 3: like just cruel and is leading to this ridiculous relationship

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Speaker 3: with your dog where you're punishing them for no reason.

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Speaker 3: So it's going to create a fear based relationship. So, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's bad. I'm sorry to hear. It's still on TikTok

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Speaker 3: making the sounds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it is, But I feel like it's evolving right

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Speaker 2: in like I think about even now, like the way

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Speaker 2: arm raising my dog versus like growing up in a

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Speaker 2: way like my dad talk about the family dog right

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Speaker 2: like you're saying for me, it's more so like how

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Speaker 2: do I keep you safe and under control? But there

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Speaker 2: is still this this sect of people basically being like

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Speaker 2: if you don't dominate your dog, your dog will dominate you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, which has never happened. Dogs don't dominate people. Dogs

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Speaker 3: out of fear or fright or excitement. My bite might

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Speaker 3: try to grab food out of your hand. Whatever, it's

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Speaker 3: not dominating.

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Speaker 8: You know.

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Speaker 3: They're not ready to take control the household, take on

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Speaker 3: the taxes, the car. They're not trying to do that stuff.

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Speaker 3: They are trying to understand how to live in a

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Speaker 3: human household. And it's not obvious to dogs. There are

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Speaker 3: a whole other species. I find it super paradoxical that

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Speaker 3: we want to live with dogs because they are not human, right,

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Speaker 3: because they are different, they act differently, and then for

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Speaker 3: some reason we don't want to let them be dogs.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, we're worried about them being dogs. There is a

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Speaker 6: balance to be struck.

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Speaker 3: As you're saying, you still have to if you're living

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Speaker 3: in dogs around other people, you still have to make

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Speaker 3: sure they don't injure other people. So there's something, there's

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Speaker 3: some kind of control or managing or just understanding that

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Speaker 3: you need to impart to them. But it's not. You

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Speaker 3: don't need to dominate them. They're not going to dominate you.

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Speaker 3: And that's a shame.

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Speaker 4: That's really interesting. This was kind of a foundational like

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Speaker 4: structure of Caesar millions like teachings and that yeah show.

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Speaker 2: It was all about being the alpha and showing the dogs. Look,

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Speaker 2: he got results, right, And I don't even think she

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Speaker 2: would deny that he got results, but I think, yeah,

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Speaker 2: she's saying, it's like it's fear based results, right, Like

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Speaker 2: the dog is only doing the thing because it is

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Speaker 2: afraid of you. It is not doing the thing because

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Speaker 2: it thinks it's the right thing to do. Chapter four,

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Speaker 2: The sensus so dogs have this really cool way of breathing.

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Speaker 3: Their whole anatomy is constructed to kind of enable them

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Speaker 3: to smell the world.

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Speaker 6: They're really good sniffers.

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Speaker 3: They can sniff like seven times a second, whereas if

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Speaker 3: we do that, we would hyperventilate. When you get a

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Speaker 3: smell in your nose and you want to get rid

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Speaker 3: of it, we know how to do that. You like,

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Speaker 3: exhale the smell, like you sort of shoot it at

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Speaker 3: your nose as best you can. But if dogs, if

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Speaker 3: they're seeing the world through smell, they don't want to

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Speaker 3: shoot that image out of their.

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Speaker 8: Nose, right, so they actually exhale through the side slits

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Speaker 8: of their nose, those little slits which you can visibly

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Speaker 8: see on your dog, and that allows them to kind

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Speaker 8: of continue to let odors come in through the main banarees,

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Speaker 8: the main nostril.

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Speaker 1: So that's why they're better at following sense and exacts.

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Speaker 2: And she talks about it in terms of like thinking

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Speaker 2: about us blinking be sort of like.

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Speaker 3: With vision, if you needed to take these really long blinks,

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Speaker 3: you know, as long as your eyes were open, you

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Speaker 3: need to blink them shut. We don't we blink very briefly.

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Speaker 3: Why because closing our eyes disappears the world suddenly. For them,

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Speaker 3: sending odors out their nose means they're not getting any

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Speaker 3: information about the smells of the world. So they have

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Speaker 3: this continual stream and they exhale separately, and that exhale

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Speaker 3: actually also sort of stirs up odors, more odors maybe

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Speaker 3: from the grounds that could be rushed into their nose.

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Speaker 6: So that's very cool.

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Speaker 2: So study show that trained dogs can actually smell out

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Speaker 2: cancer at pretty high rates. Wow, cancer, Yeah, if they're training,

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Speaker 2: you know, obviously there have to be trained to know what

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Speaker 2: cancer smells like.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know cancer had a smell.

438
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 2: It does dogs, and dogs are pretty good at detecting it.

439
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 4: Wow.

440
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: I guess if they can smell drugs, why not?

441
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? When cancer cancer something probably more helpful exactly.

442
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, stop finding my drugs.

443
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,919
Speaker 3: And their whole anatomy is really constructed to allow them

444
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 3: to smell more richly than we do. Which is not

445
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 3: to say they don't have great vision as well. Their

446
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 3: vision is fine. They have two color vision.

447
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 7: They're not color blind.

448
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 2: They are not color blind. What they're not color blindsion?

449
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: How does their vision compare to ours?

450
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 3: They can have a wider peripheral field than we do,

451
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 3: so they can see more out of the sides. The

452
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 3: science clearly shows that they have two color vision, sort

453
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 3: of like maybe like what it's like for us at dusk,

454
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 3: you know, when the bright colors of outdoors become just

455
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 3: sort of muted, and they actually have a faster flicker

456
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 3: fusion rate than we do, which means like the rate

457
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 3: at which their eyes turn the series of snapshots that

458
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 3: we're taking all the time into the feeling of smooth motion.

459
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 3: And the result of that is that they can notice

460
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 3: things that flicker because they're designed for human eyes, like

461
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 3: fluorescent lights, they notice them flickering. So their perceptual world,

462
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 3: between the smell and the vision, just getting a glimpse

463
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 3: at that, you start to see like, oh yeah, they're

464
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 3: living in like a slightly parallel universe to ours. What

465
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,360
Speaker 3: they're going to notice and be concerned with and care

466
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 3: about is going to be a little different than us

467
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 3: staring at our screens, right, things like that. That's you know,

468
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 3: some dogs will look at a screen, but that's not

469
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 3: going to be mostly engaging to them. Now, if there

470
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 3: were an odor screen and odors were shooting out of there,

471
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 3: you know, thumbs up.

472
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: The kind of frame rate thing is interesting.

473
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder if someone has made a you know,

474
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 2: how they have for dogs. There's like a channel it's

475
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 2: like TV for dogs, or there's some YouTube. I wonder

476
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 2: if they changed the frame rate on it.

477
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, they better if if they're with it.

478
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, Oh I hope. So over there for the dog's sick,

479
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 5: I mean, I hate seeing you know, when you go

480
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 5: to some people's houses and they have emotions smoothing on

481
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 5: watching a regular movie or something.

482
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 1: Does your dog watch TV?

483
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 2: Not really? If there's a certain noise, he'll look over,

484
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 2: like crying babies, what about dog dogs barking? He'll look

485
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 2: at and try to turn his head. At chapter five,

486
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: what a dog knows? All right, So now this takes

487
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 2: us to a little segment I'm gonna call is Ali racist?

488
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, wow, let's get to it.

489
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 2: Okay, my ex is a white lady, and there will

490
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 2: be times where I take Ali to the park and

491
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 2: he'll see a white woman walking and he'll sprint over

492
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 2: to that person, get kind of close, and then it

493
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 2: seems like, oh, he sort of realizes, oh, this is

494
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 2: not Sarah, this is not who I think it is.

495
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 2: And then he started just walks away Sarah. When she

496
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 2: walks Ali, she says he will do the same thing

497
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 2: if he sees like a black guy walking with sort

498
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 2: of longer hair. And initially I was like, oh, our

499
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 2: dogs to some of the grey I don't want to

500
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 2: say racist, but you know, like they have sort of like, yeah,

501
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 2: these are exactly these associations. But then you talk a

502
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 2: bit about you know, like people from the military when

503
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: they come home after being gone for a long time,

504
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 2: how it usually takes the dog like a second or

505
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 2: two to recognize them. Hen talk to why that is.

506
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so it's not they aren't using vision, right,

507
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 3: So there are some visual cues that that might be Sarah,

508
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 3: or when Ali's with Sarah, that might be you. Some

509
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 3: visual clues include skin color, body shape, or size, like

510
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 3: also where you might expect to see somebody or not. Right,

511
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 3: All of those things are clues. But then on closer examination,

512
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 3: they really identify you by your smell.

513
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 6: I mean, they know us by her smell. That's the ultimate.

514
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 3: If somebody looked just like me but smell different, they

515
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 3: wouldn't think it's me. They smell just like me but

516
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 3: look a little different. I think that would give them

517
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 3: a little bit of pause, but they would kind of

518
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 3: believe it's me, right, So what's happening is they're always

519
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 3: rushing over to that white lady and being like yes,

520
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 3: and then like, oh no, it does not smell like Sarah.

521
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I believe it. I mean Rizzo.

522
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 5: I've been walked by and like there'll be like some

523
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 5: white woman getting out of an uber or something on

524
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 5: a black and he's like jumping.

525
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 3: It's like.

526
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 5: Or like it's like I'm walking him, but then some

527
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 5: short white guy walks by and he's jumping on it.

528
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 1: It's like, look, like, who do you think is walking

529
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: right now?

530
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 2: He's like there's two of you. Yes, you're a twin.

531
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

532
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 2: So you know they're a little bit racist, but they're

533
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 2: also really good at reading like human behavior, right, Like

534
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: if dogs notice something is off, they really really like

535
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 2: tune into that. Alie gets to me into trouble. This

536
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 2: a lot. If I'm walking around the neighborhood and someone's

537
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: acting a bit off, like he'll just stop and stare

538
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 2: and I'm like come on, come on, come on, and

539
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, we are so good at like noticing

540
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 2: the thing and like keeping it moving. And like dogs like, yeah,

541
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 2: when they notice the thing, it's like he just zeros

542
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 2: in on it. Like why are they so attuned to

543
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 2: I guess things that like are even just a little bit,

544
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: like even someone walking with like a limp, right, Like

545
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 2: that's something that he picks up on immediately totally.

546
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think kids are like this too

547
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 3: for a similar reason, Like they're not in our culture

548
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 3: like you just you just said, we see somebody who's

549
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 3: acting a little aberrant, like we move a little bit away,

550
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 3: or we don't stare right at them. We don't want

551
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 3: to provoke that person or make them feel uncomfortable or

552
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 3: whatever it is. And the dog doesn't have any of

553
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 3: that sensibility, right, so instead the dog, you know, stares

554
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 3: trying to get more information. We think it's rude. They're

555
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 3: just trying to understand what that creature is doing.

556
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 5: Right?

557
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 3: Is that a threat? Is that something you know I

558
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 3: should alert you to. They might start barking right like hey, look, hey, look,

559
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 3: And you're like I'm trying not to look, and I'm like, hey, look.

560
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 2: You've probably seen there's this dog uses buttons to communicate.

561
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I've seen this.

562
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: I've been following us.

563
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 2: For a long time to communicate with achievements, allegedly. Allegedly.

564
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 2: I have very strong opinions about this. I have no

565
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 2: science to back it up, but I have very strong opinions.

566
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 2: So one of the big dogs that does this is

567
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 2: Bunny on TikTok. I trust that Bunny uses the buttons

568
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 2: to say, I want to eat, I want to go outside.

569
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 2: Basic commands. Right, All of our dogs do this to something.

570
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 2: They're not pressing buttons.

571
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: But they do it to you when you're just looking

572
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: at you.

573
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 7: Yeah.

574
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 2: Ali does the thing now where when he wants a treat,

575
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: he'll literally just sit by where.

576
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 7: The treats are.

577
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I know that means he wants to treat.

578
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 2: That's how he's communicating with it. Where Bunny starts to

579
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 2: lose me is they got Bunny talking about like I'm

580
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 2: depressed and my antidepressants.

581
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 6: You're big sad? Why because dad?

582
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: Bye?

583
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 4: Are you big sad?

584
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 6: Because Dad?

585
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 4: By this is tough to watch.

586
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: Okayd do medicine.

587
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 5: I can only speak for my dog, but my dog

588
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 5: is not having thoughts. I look at those eyes and

589
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 5: there's there's not a lot going on here.

590
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 2: How are you communicating to the dog that you're depressed.

591
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 2: How are you communicating to the dog that if you

592
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 2: take this thing, it's going to make you feel better.

593
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, what people are hopeful about with the buttons is

594
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 3: that their dogs are saying something they can't say otherwise.

595
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 3: But it's it's not scientific to say that they are, Like,

596
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 3: we have no way of confirming or denying it. That's

597
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 3: that's the thing. It's just like every other kind of

598
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 3: anthropomorphism we've made.

599
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 2: So since we did this interview, a new study came out,

600
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 2: with the big headline being a study indicates that some

601
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 2: dogs are able to express themselves by pressing buttons in

602
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 2: two or more word combinations that are neither random nor accidental.

603
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 2: So I followed up with Alexandra on this and she

604
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 2: was a bit skeptical. She said, it seems to show

605
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 2: that at a population level, so not individual dogs doing this,

606
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: but the whole group, certain two word phrases happen more

607
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 2: often it would be expected by chance. She also said,

608
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,719
Speaker 2: if the buttons are meaningful for the dogs, you know

609
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: they're using them non randomly to actually say things, then

610
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 2: you would expect that they would use them in all cases,

611
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 2: non randomly, not randomly in some cases and non randomly

612
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 2: in others. So she said it also didn't really seem

613
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 2: to show that the dogs comprehended at the level at

614
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 2: least we think of comprehension, because some of the phrases

615
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 2: just didn't really make sense. So one of the top

616
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 2: phrases is go outside plus other and help plus other.

617
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 2: Those don't really make any sense. And then sort of

618
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 2: like the last caveat or red flag that she gave

619
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 2: is that this was self reported, which she said is

620
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 2: just like why be frouled upon in behavioral science, there's

621
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 2: just too much human psychology that lets us remember the

622
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 2: things we want to and discount the things we don't

623
00:34:59,400 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 2: want to.

624
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 3: I think that many dogs understand about six to ten words,

625
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 3: and that's only if you use them really clearly in

626
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 3: very specific cases. Right. They don't obviously speak of vocal language,

627
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 3: you know, they communicate in other ways, but they're flexible

628
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 3: enough so that they can understand a couple of words

629
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 3: if you use them carefully in the same way over time. Right.

630
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 6: We don't usually tend to do that.

631
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 3: Oh, we say, I say to my dog, you know,

632
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 3: do you want to go for a walk? Do you

633
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 3: want to go outside? Should we go outside, where's your leash?

634
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 3: I'll say all sorts of things which mean the same

635
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 3: thing to me, but unless I say them clearly to

636
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 3: the dog, it's going to take a long time for

637
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 3: them to learn what those mean. But now I've said

638
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 3: do you want to go for a walk enough that

639
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 3: if I say that in any context, they know what

640
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 3: I mean. So you can't say that. You have to

641
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 3: spell it out. Yeah, like you're talking to somebody else

642
00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 3: about it.

643
00:35:58,480 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 6: So what is that?

644
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 3: That's some kind of language understanding, But it's not the

645
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 3: same as our kind of language understanding, right, It's like

646
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 3: word learning. They've learned words like I've learned that his

647
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 3: tail wag mean means a different thing if it's a

648
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 3: high tail wag than a low tail wag.

649
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 6: Like I can speak tail, but that doesn't mean I'm

650
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 6: a dog.

651
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 2: Right.

652
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 3: And because they can use they can learn some words.

653
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 3: If we use them deliberately in the same way, that

654
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that they speak our language. Now, there are

655
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,720
Speaker 3: some of these amazing dogs word learning dogs like Chaser.

656
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 7: Chaser walk up beloved six year old border colleague of

657
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 7: psychology professor John Pilly Good Girl. John has taught Chaser

658
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 7: to ten an extremely large, if unconventional herd of a

659
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 7: thousand toys, and she knows the name of every single

660
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,760
Speaker 7: one of these A hope. I find this hard to believe,

661
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 7: so I test Chaser's memory with a random sampling. Chaser

662
00:36:54,719 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 7: find inky. Well, she got one right.

663
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 3: I mean, she was so cool and her owner, John Pilley,

664
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 3: could ask her to like get a toy or touch

665
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 3: it or do different things with these toys, right, But

666
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,760
Speaker 3: he spent hours every day playing with her and teaching

667
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 3: her these words.

668
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 6: She seemed to love it. But she's unusual.

669
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 3: There aren't a lot of dogs like that, and there

670
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 3: aren't a lot of people that deal with their dogs

671
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 3: like that. They're just really different communicative specimen. But it

672
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that they don't understand any things that we say,

673
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 3: and it doesn't mean they don't have a rich communicative vocabulary.

674
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 3: It's just made up of other types of sounds and behaviors.

675
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 2: All right, We're gonna take one more break and then

676
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: finally get an answer to our question. Chapter six, the question.

677
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 2: Let's get to our big question. Our city dogs less

678
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 2: happy than suburban dogs.

679
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 3: So I'm a scientist, so I have a lot of

680
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 3: trouble giving black and white answers. If I had to

681
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 3: give a black and white answer, I mean that point

682
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 3: is there's no one kind of suburban dog. There's no

683
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 3: one kind of city dog. And I don't know Ali,

684
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 3: so I don't know where he thrives. But if I

685
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 3: had to give a black and white answer, I would say,

686
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 3: if he's used to the city, he wouldn't be happy

687
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 3: in the suburbs. And that's because the stimulation in the

688
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 3: city is like thrilling for some dogs too much, right,

689
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 3: But I think for a lot of dogs it is

690
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 3: a great environment, and for a reason you alluded to,

691
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 3: which is that you need to be intentional about his life.

692
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 3: When you put a dog in the yard, what do

693
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 3: you think happens in the yard? I mean, if you

694
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 3: ever looked out in the yard, if you're living in

695
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: your suburban home, some dogs are sitting there and happily

696
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 3: watching squirrels or whatever.

697
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 6: No dog is just.

698
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 3: Running around all day, running around and excited and thrilled

699
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 3: by themselves. They are by themselves, they're trying to find

700
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 3: something to do. You've given them a bigger space than

701
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 3: a living room or a crate, and there might be

702
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 3: more going on outside than the living room of the crate,

703
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 3: but it's still just by themselves.

704
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 6: In the city, we're much more.

705
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 3: Conscious of leaving them by themselves, and we do it

706
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 3: a lot less. We find them other dogs to play with,

707
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 3: we go to off leash hours, we make sure that

708
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 3: we're not going to be gone too long because we

709
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 3: realize that we're their social company. We think about when

710
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 3: they need to pee, and we take them out for that,

711
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 3: you know. So we're so much more intentional with respect

712
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 3: to the dog that it turns out, I think a

713
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 3: lot of their life is really improved for it. They

714
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 3: also wind up having a lot more dog interactions. Suburban

715
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 3: dog sometimes we'll have zero dog interactions. They might bark

716
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 3: at a dog who passes by who's being walked by,

717
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 3: but they might never really interact with them with their dog.

718
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 3: And I can't imagine that being a great dog life

719
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 3: under any circumstances. And dogs are social creatures, social with

720
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,919
Speaker 3: dogs or social with people, or both, and no dog

721
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,760
Speaker 3: wants to be left alone most of its life, whether

722
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 3: it's in an apartment or in a yard. So I

723
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 3: don't I mean, I think people talk to me all

724
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 3: the time about how they feel guilt about leaving their

725
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,240
Speaker 3: dogs alone. And I don't say that they should feel guilt,

726
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 3: but I'm glad that they're thinking about their dog's experience, because, yeah,

727
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 3: they're captive to our situation. Now, a better scenario for

728
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 3: the dog, in some ways might be when they can

729
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 3: run free. Right Like when I was a kid, we

730
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 3: let our dogs out at night. We just let them

731
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 3: out of the house. Lived in a kind of suburban

732
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:06,879
Speaker 3: area where I guess it wasn't hugely populated. For some reason,

733
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 3: we didn't think it was dangerous. Now I would never

734
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 3: do that. I would never do it, But we did

735
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 3: allow my dog to have his own experiences, un controlled

736
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 3: by a leash, making decisions and choices. He came back

737
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 3: when he wanted to come back, except for the time

738
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 3: we sit by car and it took him a long

739
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 3: time to get back, And that's why we don't do that.

740
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 3: But you know, he got to make choices and do

741
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 3: what he wanted to do and cavort and run or sit,

742
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 3: you know, and the world was his oyster. That feels

743
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 3: like the ideal scenario for dogs. Now, it's not safe.

744
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 3: I don't think we should do that. But then just

745
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 3: putting them in a yard and assuming that that satisfies

746
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 3: the same impulse, it doesn't satisfy the same impulse. I

747
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 3: feel really sad for lots of suburban dogs. I see them,

748
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 3: you know, in a dog kennel or on a long lead,

749
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 3: or just left outside, and mostly they're just hugging the

750
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 3: fence or looking right at the door, waiting to go in,

751
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 3: or waiting for somebody to go by so they can

752
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 3: maybe have an interaction. That's that's no way to live

753
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 3: a life.

754
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 2: So what I hear you saying is both, you know,

755
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,280
Speaker 2: like you're saying like it's like a when you're talking

756
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 2: to a doctor. It's like, I don't know what your

757
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 2: particular situation is, right, Like, I think Ali actually to

758
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 2: your point, I think he does enjoy the stimuli of

759
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 2: the city. He loves being outside and seeing all his

760
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 2: dog friends, and you know, you can just tell he's excited.

761
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 2: But then it's also, like you're saying, just living in

762
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 2: one place or another does not determine how good of

763
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 2: a dog owner you are. Like, just simply being in

764
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 2: the suburbs doesn't mean your dog is going to live

765
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 2: a better life if you're not actually actively doing anything

766
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 2: to make sure that your dog is being stimulated outside

767
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 2: of like, all right, you're in the backyard. Cool, like

768
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 2: now you're inside?

769
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, I think no dog.

770
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 6: You know, all dogs are different.

771
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 3: They're fearful, they're excited by stimuli, really different dogs. Some

772
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 3: really like playing with other dogs. Some just really want

773
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 3: to be around their people all the time. You know,

774
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 3: are you allowing them to do that in both these cases?

775
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 3: And how much do the people think about what the

776
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 3: dogs need and want and what they're doing right now?

777
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:28,479
Speaker 6: You know, most people who.

778
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 3: Live in in city with a dog, if you said,

779
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 3: right now, where's your dog, they know the dog is

780
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 3: like right there, and they know when they're going to

781
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 3: take their dog out again, they're thinking about it. If

782
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 3: the good dog people in the suburbs, you know, who

783
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 3: knows where the dog is. You know, it's a different

784
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 3: type of connection with your dog, and it's a different

785
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 3: type of responsibility for your dog.

786
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 6: And for you know, for the two I live with

787
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 6: two dogs right now. It's another good example.

788
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 3: They both love it when we go into a rural

789
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 3: area and there's like a fenced area where they can

790
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,879
Speaker 3: just hang out. But most of the time they want

791
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 3: to just be with us on the couch. Right, And

792
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 3: one of the dogs wants to have a ball tossed

793
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,479
Speaker 3: again and again. Yeah, you know, the yard doesn't toss

794
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,479
Speaker 3: the ball, right, I have to be there tossing the ball, right.

795
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 3: And so a yard is not a satisfaction. It's just

796
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 3: the way that we grew up. And if you had

797
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 3: asked me this question one hundred years ago, the question

798
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:35,720
Speaker 3: would have been like, you know, should we have dogs

799
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:40,359
Speaker 3: wandering through city streets or you know, should we keep

800
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 3: them only in kennels? And like, neither of those is

801
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 3: perfect for every dog either, right, But it's just very

802
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 3: locally culturally. This is the kind of dichotomy that we

803
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 3: see now. People love to say dogs in cities, I

804
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 3: don't have a good life. Dogs lives in the city

805
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 3: can be excellent, just great, full of other dogs, full

806
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 3: of a lot of attention from people, smells, imagine the smells.

807
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 6: And on the streets of New York City.

808
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 3: I mean it's delicious, right, So it has its own

809
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 3: set of stimuli with a good dog person, it's a

810
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 3: great scenario.

811
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 4: Well, a lot of that surprised me, even I'm even

812
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 4: questioning my initial reaction to some of those tiktoks we

813
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 4: were seeing, which is that Like I'm like, oh, this

814
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,720
Speaker 4: dog clearly prefers this environment. But as she was saying,

815
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 4: it just wasn't used to it. It's excited about something different, exploring,

816
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 4: running around a little bit, and then maybe the next

817
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 4: TikTok taking them a week later, it's just fucking bored sitting.

818
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 5: Well yeah, well, I mean in some ways it made

819
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 5: me feel better, like at least I am giving my

820
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 5: dog a lot of attention. Yeah, my dog personally, I know,

821
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 5: would prefer a quieter place. Yeah, but you know, at

822
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 5: least it's like, well, it.

823
00:45:57,880 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 4: Doesn't mean you're ruining his life.

824
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't think he's not as miserable as he

825
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 5: could be.

826
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 2: Well you can have riz in the suburbs and not

827
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 2: be as attentive and yeah exactly. Yeah, you know, it

828
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,879
Speaker 2: could go to any other direction right where he could be.

829
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 2: You know, he would have been happy if he was

830
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 2: in the city.

831
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,439
Speaker 5: Then he's getting antsy and stuff because we're not doing much.

832
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 5: I will say, when we were in Virginia, even like

833
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,839
Speaker 5: by you know, we were there for a little over

834
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 5: a week. At a certain point, maybe five days in,

835
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 5: he went on on a walk and then was kind

836
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 5: of like, I'm done, I want to go back, even

837
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 5: though we were outside and with the other dogs and

838
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 5: all the stuff. So it's kind of like, once you

839
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:40,879
Speaker 5: get used to something, it's not going to be as

840
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 5: fun anymore, you know.

841
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, in some ways.

842
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 2: I guess this definitely made me feel better, obviously, but

843
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 2: I think the big my big takeaway from it was

844
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:57,359
Speaker 2: like being intentional about how your dog is spending their time. Yeah, right,

845
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 2: Like you said, so much of what our dogs do

846
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 2: day to day is dependent on what we do with them.

847
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 2: And it's not even like she talks about in her book. Right,

848
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,399
Speaker 2: it's not just taking your dog out for a walk.

849
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 2: It's letting your dog sometimes dictate where they want to walk. Right,

850
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 2: It's not always I want to walk this, where we're

851
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 2: going this, where we're doing this thing you're on a leash.

852
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 2: It's like maybe this walk, I'll let you lead, and

853
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 2: maybe like we don't need to get around the block.

854
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 2: We'll just going to be outside for thirty minutes, and

855
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 2: if you want to smell a tree for twenty of

856
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 2: those minutes, that's fine. We can stand here for twenty minutes.

857
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 2: So something that I'm since I've done this interview, been

858
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 2: considering is how can I do more things? Yeah, living

859
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 2: knowing that I'm living in the city, knowing that he

860
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 2: doesn't maybe have as much room to run around. How

861
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 2: can I have him explore in different ways, even if

862
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 2: it's just going for a walk. How can I be

863
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 2: more intentional about that stuff? Someone on TikTok said, like,

864
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 2: a good way to think about it is like being

865
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 2: outside with your dog and them smelling it's their TikTok.

866
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:03,919
Speaker 5: Yeah.

867
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so as annoyed as you are that they're sniffing

868
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 2: the tree for three minutes. Yeah, Like they can't watch TV,

869
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 2: they can't be on TikTok, their version of TikTok. So

870
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 2: you may think this is boring and you might want

871
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 2: to be like, let's go, But they are enjoying themselves

872
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 2: and you're the reason you're walking them is for them,

873
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 2: So just let them do today.

874
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's funny to take the dog for a walk.

875
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 4: But then be like, yeah, and I.

876
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 2: Got a big dog and he got trust issues the dog.

877
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 2: I still miss you. I made mistakes the first time

878
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 2: and like the last time, sit you up with BM

879
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 2: That us just the sound.

880
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 8: Line again.

881
00:48:58,360 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 3: Again.

882
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 2: Thing is produced by Manny Fidelle, Noah Friedman and me

883
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 2: Devin Joseph. The theme song is by Manny. This song

884
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 2: is Big Dog by my band Maurice and it's featuring

885
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 2: Kenyon Thing certain self and Alli's on this track, too Beautiful.

886
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 2: Our guest this week list Alexandra Horowitz. Check out her

887
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 2: book Inside of a Dog. We'll put a link to

888
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,399
Speaker 2: it in the newsletter. No such thing not show.

889
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 7: If you're a.

890
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 2: Fan of what we are doing, please give us five stars.

891
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 2: We got some haters giving one stars, so we gotta

892
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 2: get our ratings up. Our ratings are pretty good, but

893
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 2: it could be even higher, so five stars. We'll be

894
00:49:39,800 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: back next week with a new episode.

895
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 3: Oh one more thing that I I want to mention.

896
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:13,800
Speaker 3: People say to me all the time, you can't have

897
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 3: a big dog in the city. You know, they can

898
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 3: run fast, they have a lot of energy, but they

899
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 3: also calm, yes, right, And what do they need like

900
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 3: a huge apartment to run around and all the time. No,

901
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 3: Allie's on the couch or whatever, right, Like, that's that's

902
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,959
Speaker 3: what he's doing at. Little dogs, by contrast, are much

903
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 3: more high energy all the time. And it's our smaller

904
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,399
Speaker 3: dog who's barking at things out the window, who's like, right,

905
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 3: on the edge of, you know, really excited. So I

906
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 3: feel like if you have a little dog, you shouldn't

907
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 3: live in the city. No, I'm not I'm not going

908
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 3: to come down that way.