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Speaker 1: Amy Robock and T. J.

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Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your Host Alisa Donovan. Hi, guys,

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Speaker 2: I'm Jen Fessler, host of Killer Thriller DOCU edition, and

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Speaker 2: today I am joined by my partner in crime, Alisavan.

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Speaker 1: Conintended.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Jen him, I love. How are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well? How are you going on hanging out?

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Speaker 2: Doing better than a lot of the people that we

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Speaker 2: see on our right.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say yes, and I don't.

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Speaker 2: Even want to make a that's not even a joke,

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Speaker 2: because you know, we're talking about today to horrific just

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Speaker 2: hard to even fathom crime documentaries that are on well,

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Speaker 2: one film and one of them in particular is shaking

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Speaker 2: up the country this particular documentary, and anyone listening probably

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Speaker 2: knows that we're talking about the Idaho murders, but we're

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Speaker 2: going to talk about two very different cases actually, and

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Speaker 2: they're both you know that both the ones that we're

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Speaker 2: going to talk about are very public and capture the

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Speaker 2: attention of the whole country. There was intense public debate,

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Speaker 2: difficult questions about justice, accountability, mental health, the way we

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Speaker 2: tell true crime stories, and we're going to kind of

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Speaker 2: just you know, look at why these cases become obsession,

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Speaker 2: sort of cultural obsession. So you know, we're going to

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Speaker 2: look at the Idaho murders, and we're going to look

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Speaker 2: at a case of Lindsay Clancy, who is a Massachusetts

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Speaker 2: mom accused of killing her three children while her defense

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Speaker 2: centers around postpartum psychosis and mental illness, and we're going

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Speaker 2: to try to just kind of look beyond the headlines

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Speaker 2: and explore why these cases became cultural moments, you know,

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Speaker 2: how audiences have connected with these stories, what they reveal

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Speaker 2: about the way we consume and understand true crime, which

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Speaker 2: is something I am always interested in, in particular, watching

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Speaker 2: the Idaho murders, it was so hard to I mean,

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Speaker 2: this documentary was so hard to watch, so upsetting, and

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Speaker 2: yet over eight million people have tuned in, and it's

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Speaker 2: hard to wrap my head around that because it was

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Speaker 2: difficult for me to get through it right too.

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Speaker 1: I do want to point out straight away how much

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that this documentary and all of documentaries that

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Speaker 1: Joe Berlinger, who's the executive producer and Skyborgman is the director,

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Speaker 1: they are very, very focused on the victims and the families.

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Speaker 1: So while they are yes covering the perpetrator and this

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Speaker 1: just severely damaged human being who has done these things.

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Speaker 1: They are really talking about the humanity piece of this

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Speaker 1: and the grief, and they're giving time and respect and

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Speaker 1: energy to the victims and their families, which I think

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Speaker 1: is the whole point of all of this.

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Speaker 2: Is that why America is so transfixed by these stories

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Speaker 2: because for me and for you, because we've spoken about it,

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Speaker 2: it is finding the humanity somewhere in what feels so inhumane,

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Speaker 2: right and especially difficult when stories hit close to home.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's also part of what's going on

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Speaker 2: with these two stories. Do you a heart?

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Speaker 1: Well, yes, because there both of them involve situations that

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Speaker 1: we consider to be healthy, happy, kind of sort of

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Speaker 1: a given part of human life, you know, childbirth and

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Speaker 1: being in college, right, having this kind of joyful, safe, fun,

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Speaker 1: exploratory experience. And it threatens the very things that we

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Speaker 1: kind of hold up as these sacred, sacred and very

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Speaker 1: basic human experiences and rights. And it's so deeply upsetting.

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Speaker 2: I find it so weird though, Like my daughter, So

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Speaker 2: I watched the Idaho murders and me too. Okay, So

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Speaker 2: I was at the beach and I put it on

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Speaker 2: and I watched it, and my daughter does love true crime,

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Speaker 2: but I didn't even mention it to her. Whatever she

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Speaker 2: was doing, she was doing, I was doing what I

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Speaker 2: was doing. And then a few hours later she said, Mom,

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Speaker 2: if you watched the Idaho murders. I just watched it,

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Speaker 2: like we just had missed each other. And I so.

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Speaker 2: But it's interesting because for her especially, she's twenty four,

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Speaker 2: so the age that these kids would have been, and

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Speaker 2: she loves, you know, true crime. But I was interested

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Speaker 2: in you know why she's she loves to watch true crime?

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Speaker 1: Like yeah, could she answer you?

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Speaker 2: Scare her doesn't really know? She she hasn't figured it out.

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Speaker 2: I think it's really it's a it's a difficult thing

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Speaker 2: to pinpoint, right, like what is it about the human

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Speaker 2: condition that we and I have to use the word enjoy,

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Speaker 2: we enjoy watching troop?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: Is it a morbid curiosity?

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Speaker 2: Is it?

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Speaker 1: Is there part of it?

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Speaker 2: I do part of it. That's part of it.

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Speaker 1: That's like ultimately uh not self fulfiilling. Good lord, that's

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Speaker 1: not what I mean A kind of like a safety

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Speaker 1: thing where like overcoming understanding that you are okay because

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Speaker 1: maybe or is it like the U but for the

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Speaker 1: grace of God, go I you know, like I don't know, like.

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Speaker 2: I think sometimes it's also watching a freak show. So

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Speaker 2: for instance, and I, by the way, before I say it,

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Speaker 2: I think I have an unconscious subconscious block when I

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Speaker 2: say his name. I never know if I'm saying it right.

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Speaker 2: I think I almost don't want to say it. But

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Speaker 2: Brian Coneburger, Coburger, Oh Burger. I've done it this so

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Speaker 2: many times. But I think watching someone who does something

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Speaker 2: so evil and so again like subhuman is it's fast

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Speaker 2: because it's like watching a monster. People like monsters. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: And I find myself him in particular, but probably most

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Speaker 1: him in particular trying. I think it's because he looks

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Speaker 1: at the camera so much. Yeah, and there are so

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Speaker 1: many images prior too of him directly staring into the

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Speaker 1: screen and the selfiees that he's taken and all of that.

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Speaker 1: But in the courtroom as well, where I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: look in his face to get a clue as to

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Speaker 1: what on earth is going on there and what does

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Speaker 1: a person this diabolical look like. But you know, you

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Speaker 1: and I both know some times these people know Ted

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Speaker 1: Bundy is the perfect example, he shattered the image of

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Speaker 1: what we how we perceive evil and you know, he

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Speaker 1: and I also think it is his case in particular

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Speaker 1: brings Brian Coberger, I mean, brings up this really important

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Speaker 1: question of what is justice for the families and what

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Speaker 1: is exploitation and what is you know, I was so

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Speaker 1: moved by the family when they spoke to him in

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Speaker 1: the sentence, the one sister of one of the victims,

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Speaker 1: who was like, you're not getting this from me, and

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Speaker 1: she said.

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Speaker 2: She feels like she meant it, but you don't feel

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Speaker 2: sometimes like behind those dead eyes, do you think he cares?

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Speaker 2: Like I know, it's not really about him in those moments, right,

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Speaker 2: It's about the victims being able to say what they

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Speaker 2: need to say. But I keep he's so stone cold

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Speaker 2: and like, was he even you know, really taking in

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Speaker 2: what they were saying, because that's what you want to think.

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Speaker 2: You want to think that like right, these these.

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Speaker 1: But that's what a revenge sane person would explain. So

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Speaker 1: it's right, Yes, I could see in his face when

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Speaker 1: I was looking there were a couple of moments where

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Speaker 1: I felt like he was about to crack a smile,

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Speaker 1: like he was, and I felt like I don't know

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Speaker 1: what the answer is, because certainly I think her point

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Speaker 1: was I'm not this isn't about you, I'm not giving

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Speaker 1: you the credit, and which I deeply respect and understanding.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine how hard that was for her. And

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Speaker 1: and and then you say, okay, well, then what is

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Speaker 1: that is it just to never talk about this person

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Speaker 1: and not give him a lot of times, that's.

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Speaker 2: Sort of what's going on now. I feel like there's

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Speaker 2: a sort of a move towards not mentioning that they're

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Speaker 2: not saying the name of the criminal of the mark.

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Speaker 2: Let's not even give that person a name, right.

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Speaker 1: Like give them the notoriety that yes.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly exactly, well, okay, So I also think with

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Speaker 2: the Idaho murders that so the girls that were and

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Speaker 2: the excuse me, the girls and the boy that were murdered, Kaylee, Madison,

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Speaker 2: Xanna and Ethan when every time their pictures would come

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Speaker 2: up on my screen and they'd show them in like

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Speaker 2: a foursome, and you know, so they were so playful

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Speaker 2: and I'm I was so uh just unnerved because again,

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Speaker 2: my daughter and son are that age and they well

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Speaker 2: they would have been now I think exactly my daughter's age,

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Speaker 2: maybe the year or two behind behind Zach. But they

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Speaker 2: it was so unnerving because also they are at they're

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Speaker 2: at college, they are having themselves the greatest four years.

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Speaker 2: They're talking about how they loved Idaho. They are they

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Speaker 2: look the part right and of just happy, go lucky students,

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Speaker 2: and then this sick, twisted, horrific thing happens. And I

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Speaker 2: think that that's also part of the fascination because sometimes

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Speaker 2: like children, like we're going to talk about in the

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Speaker 2: next the film, but like when the victim seems so

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Speaker 2: vulnerable or on the brink of real life, it's just it's.

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Speaker 1: It's a breaking yeah. And it's also you know, I

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Speaker 1: think we have to talk about the fact that this

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Speaker 1: crime in particular, it was so premeditated. And this man

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Speaker 1: kid whatever, I mean, he's twenty one.

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Speaker 2: At the time, he was older, so he was a

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Speaker 2: grad student, so he's likely mid twenties, I think, yeah,

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Speaker 2: a little older.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So he was stalking these women and this house,

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Speaker 1: and all of the digital data they have on him,

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Speaker 1: and where his car was, where his phone was, like

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Speaker 1: all of those things prove that he went after these

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Speaker 1: people very specifically. And they also couldn't. They couldn't prove

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Speaker 1: with the evidence, but they had circumstantial evidence that he

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Speaker 1: was on these in cell sites, these sites that are

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Speaker 1: women hating and you know, involuntary celibacy and they're really misogynistic,

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Speaker 1: very deeply disturbed, anti female websites. And so you think

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Speaker 1: of this person who had a very you know, they

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Speaker 1: they when they looked at his phone, they said it

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Speaker 1: was so highly unusual that a person is only in

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Speaker 1: contact with maybe eighteen people. It was a very low.

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Speaker 2: Lay, right, right, Well, he's very purposeful. Yes, I thought

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Speaker 2: it was also part of why this documentary is first

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Speaker 2: but also you know, between Sky and Joe, this stuff

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Speaker 2: doesn't becomes fascinating to watch this study, you know, in

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Speaker 2: the worst of humanity, but also watch it the case unfold,

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Speaker 2: because at first it just was circumstantial, right, And by

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Speaker 2: the end there was DNA and there was the fact

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Speaker 2: that they could even know they right, they got the

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Speaker 2: guard when Brian fled to his parents' house and they

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Speaker 2: put out the guard. The parents will put out the garbage,

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Speaker 2: and they found DNA on the garbage of someone that

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Speaker 2: would be Brian's father.

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Speaker 1: Their father, right, isn't that that is wow?

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Speaker 2: I mean, don't people know you can't get away with

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Speaker 2: a crime anymore, Like although that's not true, that is

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Speaker 2: actually not true. They say that today it's almost easier.

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Speaker 2: And this was another podcast that I did. There are

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Speaker 2: statistics around it, and I don't really get it.

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Speaker 1: But because there's so much information, so we should also

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Speaker 1: mention that Brian was a criminal psychology in college and

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Speaker 1: was a student of doctor kathyin Ramsland, who I interviewed

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Speaker 1: about her book about the BTK killer. She was not

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Speaker 1: allowed to speak about Brian at all because obviously the

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Speaker 1: case is still ongoing, but he very specifically studied this

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Speaker 1: stuff so new utilized the information and the knowledge that

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Speaker 1: he was given in order to execute these crimes. And

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Speaker 1: then that they find through the timing on his phone

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Speaker 1: that he went back to his apartment and took a

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Speaker 1: selfie giving himself a thumbs up. I can't even it's

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Speaker 1: it's just but again, it really speaks to this like

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Speaker 1: that we're always saying these things come from there's always

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Speaker 1: a deep loneliness associated with this behavior, and it does

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Speaker 1: not excuse any of it by any stretch of the imagination.

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Speaker 1: But it's so interesting to me that you know, the

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Speaker 1: This is about the human experience and if you don't

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Speaker 1: have support or you're incapable of finding community, and especially

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Speaker 1: now with the Internet, it can spiral to me.

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Speaker 2: I've mentioned him before, but there's doctor Scott Galloway who

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Speaker 2: has become very well known. He's a professor at Stern

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Speaker 2: Business School, but he's written several books about isolated boys

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Speaker 2: because of social media and what that turns into and

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Speaker 2: how it can turn into a serial killer. Not just listen.

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Speaker 2: I have a hard time, like nature or nurture, I

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Speaker 2: don't always know, right. I mean, you see people that

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Speaker 2: are brought up in the same home.

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Speaker 1: That don't do the same things right.

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Speaker 2: And so I don't know if Brian was born evil, right,

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Speaker 2: it's almost easier.

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Speaker 1: I know. I would like to know more about his parents.

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Speaker 1: Do we have any The only thing I know. I

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Speaker 1: just saw the one clip of the dad in his car,

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Speaker 1: and you just think to yourself, like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: would I'm sitting next to my child who's driving the car,

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Speaker 1: having no idea that they have committed these heinous, heinous,

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Speaker 1: violent crimes. Like I just it's really unimaginable.

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Speaker 2: On TikTok, I was watching Piers Morgan interview this person

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Speaker 2: who was thirteen years old when he killed his four

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Speaker 2: year old sister and stabbed her like fifteen times when

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Speaker 2: he was thirteen. He's actually up for Pearl soon, and

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Speaker 2: so it's maybe we'll do another collab on this. I

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Speaker 2: don't know, yeah version of it, but I'm sure there

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Speaker 2: probably is. But anyway, and interviewing the mother, right, was

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Speaker 2: so much about the mother who had had another baby

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Speaker 2: after her daughter was killed and her son went to jail.

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Speaker 2: I really we're gonna move on, but the parents thing

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Speaker 2: is so.

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Speaker 1: Right, even in the two kids growing up in the

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Speaker 1: same household, like having different experiences.

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Speaker 2: And he's going to get let out of jail and

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Speaker 2: everyone's telling her flee the country. He's a literal psychopath

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Speaker 2: and he's going to do it again. So it's whatever

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Speaker 2: that again. I'm sorry you guys, that's for another episode.

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Speaker 2: But just thinking about that nature versus nurture, and like,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's how does this happen? Is it because

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Speaker 2: of you know, the way someone grows up and the

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Speaker 2: loneliness and the social media of it all the isolation

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Speaker 2: and the anger and the or I think maybe it's both.

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Speaker 1: I think, right, I mean, in my armchair opinion, it

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Speaker 1: probably is, but in most cases it's probably both. And

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Speaker 1: then something puts you over the edge. But you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's some really, it's just terrifying. And you know,

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Speaker 1: these these kids, the ones that have survived again, they

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Speaker 1: carry this with them their whole lives. I mean, they're

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Speaker 1: that PTSD. Those girls that were in the house, yes,

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Speaker 1: and the one who made eye contact with yes, And

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Speaker 1: then he felt like, why did let her get away? Right?

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Speaker 2: That's another question, why?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: And then the survivor's guilt. I hope that they don't

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Speaker 2: have it. I pray that they don't have it, and

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Speaker 2: they both there were a lot of questions in this

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Speaker 2: case around you know, the girls didn't call nine one one.

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Speaker 1: Until yes, so many hours later, so many.

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Speaker 2: Hours later, And what was that about? And they said

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Speaker 2: it was they were they were in the middle of

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Speaker 2: being traumas, right, traumatized and definitely yeah, and no one

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Speaker 2: could kind of and there was almost this like accusatory

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Speaker 2: feel to that, and yeah, how could like these poor

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Speaker 2: girls if there's he can't get worse.

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Speaker 1: The text messages between these girls when they were in

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Speaker 1: the house of I'm scared, No, I'm really scared. To

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Speaker 1: come down here, cutting down like I just it's.

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Speaker 2: But I did wonder too, like I I there were

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Speaker 2: no calls to the parents like they must have just

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Speaker 2: been so and I'm sure they've been questioned about it

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Speaker 2: a lot, but they must have just been frozen in fear.

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Speaker 2: That's all I can think. Yeah, so, you know, and

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Speaker 2: God bless forever Kaylee, Madison, Xanna and Ethan, those beautiful

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Speaker 2: young people. May they rest in peace. And now Ryan

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Speaker 2: Cookwright is now trying to get himself. He pleaded so

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Speaker 2: obviously not guilty. It is guilty, excuse me, and now

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Speaker 2: he wants to go back and plead not guilty.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, it did. There is this question of you know,

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Speaker 1: as I said before, about what is justice for the families?

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Speaker 1: And you know, I think it's they What I love

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Speaker 1: about the Idahome Owner's documentary is it they cover so

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Speaker 1: many of the family member's feelings and they're all very different.

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Speaker 1: You know. Some felt like, let's just put this to bed.

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Speaker 1: He's in jail forever and we have to move on.

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Speaker 1: Some are like, no, I want to hear him say

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Speaker 1: why we They do want to go back to trial

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Speaker 1: so that he can be put to death. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's like it just shows you that the that the

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Speaker 1: grief process is so individual. And one father, I.

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Speaker 2: Think it was Zana's father who said, no, he's not

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Speaker 2: just I want him dead. I can't remember which one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was Xana's parents yet.

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Speaker 2: But the truth is, I almost feel like I prefer

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Speaker 2: that he spends his life in a maximum security prison.

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Speaker 1: It's got to be worse. It's got to be worse.

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Speaker 1: That's I think it's gotta be worse.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: And also there is this theory that they're part of

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Speaker 1: the quote lockdown generation and that's why they didn't call

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Speaker 1: anyone right away. I don't quite get what that is,

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Speaker 1: like lockdown.

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Speaker 2: Related, Like yeah, like is that that why boys go crazy?

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Speaker 2: Or that's why because like all of a sudden they

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Speaker 2: you know, lost their ship during lockdown. I don't. I

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Speaker 2: don't really get it. I don't. I don't know how

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Speaker 2: that factors in. But there is that, you know philosophy

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Speaker 2: that those lockdown years.

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Speaker 1: Oh like when they have an actor active shooter at

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Speaker 1: schools and you and and you do those drills, like

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Speaker 1: my daughter's school even does that. They've never had God forbid,

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Speaker 1: not gotten wood. They've never had an incident like that,

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Speaker 1: but they do drills regularly, so maybe the feeling of like, okay,

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Speaker 1: you sort of stay in a place when something.

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Speaker 2: Locked down you don't move is happening. Yes, yes, Okay,

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Speaker 2: that now I understand. So I've heard of the theory too,

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Speaker 2: but I didn't really put that together. Interesting, Okay, Well,

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Speaker 2: moving on to our next horrific, unbearable story. Tell us

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Speaker 2: about the Lindsay Clancy case.

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Speaker 1: So Lindsay Clancy, she was January twenty twenty three. She

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Speaker 1: was accused of killing her three children, Cora, who was five,

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Speaker 1: Dawson is three, and Callen is eight months, inside their

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Speaker 1: Massachusetts home. The prosecutors alleged that she murdered her children.

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Speaker 1: Clancy has pleaded not guilty. The defense argues that she

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Speaker 1: was suffering from a severe postpartum psychosis and was experiencing

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Speaker 1: a mental mental health crisis at the time. In the

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Speaker 1: moment and then after the killings. Immediately after, Clancy attempted

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Speaker 1: suicide by jumping from a second story window and suffered

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Speaker 1: life changing injuries. So her trial began in July, with

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Speaker 1: the case focusing heavily on questions surrounding mental illness, medication,

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Speaker 1: and criminal responsibility. So this is definitely one of these

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Speaker 1: cases where the central question isn't only what happened, but

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Speaker 1: why and what was happening psychologically at LISTA.

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Speaker 2: You know, I was thinking that, right, And but this case,

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Speaker 2: I think because postpartum is such a serious, such a serious,

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Speaker 2: serious condition that we can almost you know, justify, not justify,

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Speaker 2: but sort of justify it in our minds more than

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Speaker 2: explain something like you know, brought not more like the others.

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Speaker 1: I think who.

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Speaker 2: You know, obviously he was also mentally disturbed, and she

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Speaker 2: was obviously mentally disturbed. I don't know where you draw

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Speaker 2: the line, but I have a lot more sympathy for her.

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Speaker 1: Me too than I do. I mean, listen, I don't

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Speaker 1: know about.

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Speaker 2: Any sympathy for hand. I should say that.

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Speaker 1: I did not have severe postpartum, and I had full

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Speaker 1: support of a great husband and partner family. You know,

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Speaker 1: I have had a very nice situation. I still was

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Speaker 1: not right in the brain emotionally for a while, and

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Speaker 1: I did not have any kind of severe postpartum. So

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Speaker 1: when imagining someone who has three children, five being the oldest,

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Speaker 1: like that's not even you're barely out of the woods

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Speaker 1: of like twenty four to seven having to deal with

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Speaker 1: a child, and she also was a nick you nurse,

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Speaker 1: I believe, right, and so she was just constantly taking

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Speaker 1: care of people all the time. And in her what

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Speaker 1: I found so so sad were the excerpts from her

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Speaker 1: journal where she literally maps out, I do not feel right.

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Speaker 1: I can't do end this anymore. I don't I'm not

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Speaker 1: emotionally stable, like she was saying it, like I can't

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Speaker 1: take care of another thing for another second. And then

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Speaker 1: looking at the just array of drugs that she was on,

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Speaker 1: prescribed drugs for depression, for all these things that you know,

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Speaker 1: it just feels like it's a combination of people just

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Speaker 1: not hurry, things falling through the cracks, and not taking

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Speaker 1: a woman seriously when she's saying, I am in all probably.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know I think that I yes, I definitely

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Speaker 2: think that that's what happened. I also think that it's

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Speaker 2: almost evidenced by the fact that a mother killing their

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Speaker 2: own children is going against every instinct, every human instinct.

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Speaker 2: And so for whatever reason, as a society, I feel like,

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Speaker 2: at least we'll speak just for me when something like

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Speaker 2: that happens. I don't know, I have some sort of

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Speaker 2: my brain goes to what happened to this poor woman? Yes,

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Speaker 2: that she would have been so out of her mind

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Speaker 2: to kill her babies. And then, by the way, go

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Speaker 2: to jail. Don't go to jail. Get who cares your life?

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Speaker 1: How do you?

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Speaker 2: And then how do you live with that? And but again,

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's mental illness. Is mental illness,

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Speaker 2: and it's a weird thing, right because I again, it's

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Speaker 2: also messed up because I do feel for her, and

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Speaker 2: I do too, I don't feel for him. Nope.

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Speaker 1: Well right, so then what what is that?

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Speaker 2: I mean?

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Speaker 1: Okay, partly because you and I both understand what it

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Speaker 1: is to have a child and the absolute there's just

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Speaker 1: no way on earth I can imagine doing something like this, agreed. So,

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Speaker 1: so is is it just that or is it his

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Speaker 1: was like premeditated? And they're trying to argue that Lindsay's

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Speaker 1: was premeditated because she sent her husband to the store.

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Speaker 1: But this also, this to me feels more like that

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Speaker 1: that kind of like abuse behavior, and you like crack,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like, if you're a woman

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Speaker 1: who No, I'm not saying her husband's abusing her, That's

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Speaker 1: not what I'm saying. I'm saying, like, when you are

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Speaker 1: experiencing something that is abusive to her, like she her

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Speaker 1: mental state, an emotional state, was deteriorating, and so if

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Speaker 1: it feels like that's getting worse and worse and worse,

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Speaker 1: and the kids are making it worse and worse and worse,

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Speaker 1: and I can't, like, I don't know how to do

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Speaker 1: any of it. You yeah, you know they're trying to

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Speaker 1: say that she did this that purposefully where coburger, that is,

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Speaker 1: without a doubt premeditated.

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Speaker 2: Well, who knows when she cracked me, but she cracked

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Speaker 2: when she told him to go right, you know. So

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Speaker 2: I'm reading also a book called The Mad Wife, which

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Speaker 2: by the way, I highly recommend, about a woman experiencing

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Speaker 2: horrible postpartum. And it's in the fifties.

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Speaker 1: Right where that's where nobody knows.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, no.

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Speaker 1: So my mom told me a story. My mom my

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Speaker 1: sisters was born and was born in nineteen sixty four.

433
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: She's the oldest and her she my mom had probably

434
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: what would be considered a postpartum and she said she

435
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: went to and she didn't tell me this. I was

436
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 1: in my twenties and I started asking all these questions

437
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,959
Speaker 1: about other things. And she went to a psychologist and

438
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: she said, oh, he told me that because she wasn't

439
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: feeling right. She was like, I don't like, I'm sad.

440
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 1: I don't want to get out of bed, like I

441
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: don't want to do things. And he said to her,

442
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 1: you have a child. Now you got to get out

443
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: of bed and take care of this kid. You have

444
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: to get it together and do this, like you have

445
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 1: a husband who has a great job, and get it together, lady.

446
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 1: And she literally said, you know, so I just got

447
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: it together. And I've always thought about that, like, oh

448
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:58,120
Speaker 1: my god.

449
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 2: It's like malpractice, right, because yeah, that's so fucked up.

450
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 2: It is so and so I got it together though,

451
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 2: that's the that's yes, It's like you know, is that

452
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 2: is that your mommy swift kick in the ass, Like yeah,

453
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: you know, I mean I I have been in therapy

454
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 2: for ten million years.

455
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 1: Me too.

456
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 2: My psychiatrist has never once said to me, just get

457
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 2: it together, right, you know, so right right? I don't

458
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 2: know from that.

459
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I I've watched some of the the

460
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: courtroom proceedings with Lindsey Clancy, and you know, I just

461
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: see a woman who is so she's just deeply depressed, Like, damn,

462
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: I see this person who is just like she's almost

463
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: kind of uh, I just yeah, like in a trance

464
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: sort of of state.

465
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, And again I don't think everybody's fighting for her.

466
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 2: You know, it was premeditative. Does it fucking matter? Like?

467
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: What is she going to go on with her life?

468
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: How does? How does your life go on?

469
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: It?

470
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 2: I think I don't know this because again, you know,

471
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 2: human beings are built to want to survive, but I

472
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 2: don't think i'd want to be alive how anyway, what

473
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 2: do you fucking right?

474
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: You know, it's awful like she can't There's no way

475
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: this is not a psychotic human being who you know?

476
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 2: She?

477
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: I do wonder how how she will go on regardless

478
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: in prisoner, and I guess the question would is if

479
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: she can be sent to like a more of a

480
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: mental hospital facility rather than prison. And you know that's

481
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: a whole other set of questions. Are those things really rehabilitative?

482
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: Are they not?

483
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 2: Like I don't know, it's an today and today, in

484
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 2: you know, the divisive world that we live in, there

485
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 2: are politicians who say open the jails, abolished jails. I'm not.

486
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 2: I don't subscribe to those politics, but there are for

487
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 2: whatever reason. I think there's thought, well, you can't get rehabilitated, right,

488
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:27,959
Speaker 2: there's no rehabilitation or is there right?

489
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: Well, this is what is interesting in the I took

490
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: a tour of San Quentin earlier, a couple of months ago,

491
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: like a private tour with some people that we know

492
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: who are involved over there, and I was blown away.

493
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: My tour was given by four incarcerated men who are

494
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: currently incarcerated. All have murdered someone at the very least.

495
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: All have had life sentences that are being perhaps reduced.

496
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: Two of them were up for parole. They gave us

497
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: the tour, and part of their rehabilitation has been to

498
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: talk about their crimes, to be able to be accountable,

499
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: and they've been given these opportunities. We as California voters,

500
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: it's a whole other conversation, but we voted for this,

501
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: which I didn't even realize, the prison reform, and essentially

502
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: it's giving all of these resources to create to set

503
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: them up for success for when they leave prison. And

504
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: it's definitely an uphill battle and it certainly isn't working

505
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: for everyone. But I was really, really moved by these

506
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: four men who were articulate, They cared about what they

507
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: were saying. They brought us around the property. There is

508
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: a building that's a journalism building. They have their own newspaper.

509
00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: They have a filmmaking side where they may films about

510
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: their own experience and what they have. Like, so there

511
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: is something to say about truly rehabilitating people.

512
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I like that. I like it in theory.

513
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 2: I hope I like it also in practice. I'm just

514
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 2: not sure.

515
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: Yet, but that's fair.

516
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 2: Can people like for instance, this kid I was telling

517
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 2: you about, his name was Paris. I just remember that

518
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 2: Peers was in So the psychiatrists they were also, but

519
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 2: they already knew this, but they were watching the interview,

520
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 2: said he is a psychopath. So a sociopath and a

521
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 2: psychopath and a psychopath cannot change, can't change, right, So

522
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's how they would label Brian.

523
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 2: But some of the behaviors of behaviors of this person

524
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: who's not a kid anymore in his twenties early twenties,

525
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: the dead look in his eyes, the lack of emotion,

526
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:47,719
Speaker 2: and also the manipulation.

527
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: Coburger has that so right, So.

528
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 2: According to these doctors. That's a psychopath, that's not something.

529
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 2: Doesn't matter what you do, there is no realitation for

530
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 2: those criminals, murderers, and so I don't I don't know.

531
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 2: And can some you know, trick the system I and

532
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 2: then murder again. It's just there's so much, there's just

533
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 2: so much, you know, to consider. I guess I love

534
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 2: the idea that there is rehabilitation, even if there's not

535
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 2: a release from prison, but that somehow these people that

536
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 2: are not don't feel human become, you know, somehow part

537
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: of humanity.

538
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: To your point, I don't think in particular these four gentlemen,

539
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,719
Speaker 1: for example, I don't think these were psychopathic people. I

540
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: think they are people that were put in circumstances without

541
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: resources and without certain things, and made decisions that were

542
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: very bad.

543
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 2: And yes, and then there's a difference. That's what the

544
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 2: psychiatrists are saying, that these not every murderer cannot be rehabilitated, right, So,

545
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: but they were convinced that Paris could not be And

546
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 2: like lindsay.

547
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: And he's going to did you say he's on parole or.

548
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 2: He will coven he's coming up for us as thirteen

549
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 2: because he was convicted as you know, as a kid,

550
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 2: as a minor, as a minor, right, exactly so, But

551
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,720
Speaker 2: like in Lindsay's case, I don't know. I would definitely

552
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 2: vote for rehabilitation, I know, I mean, and I wonder

553
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 2: if there's part of it that's just because a woman,

554
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 2: because she's a woman who was in such severe postpart

555
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 2: Is that what is tugging at us?

556
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: Well? I think it certainly partly, right, But I also

557
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: think that she when you look at her, I haven't

558
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 1: done like this extreme deep dive on her, but when

559
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: I see her and the things that she's said, I

560
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: see a person who is broken and not broken, like broken,

561
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: emotionally broken, and that that feels to me like there

562
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: is remorse. There is you know, a person who can't

563
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: even remedy or process what she's done in an emotion way.

564
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: Yes, But then again, if we're actually watching it happen,

565
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 2: we're watching her kill her baby.

566
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: I can't feel the same way. I can't even.

567
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 2: And then say we feel for her. I don't know.

568
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, because I partly thought, and again I've

569
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: obviously never been in this situation, but for moments I thought, okay, well,

570
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: wait a second, if she's feeling all this stuff. Why

571
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 1: not just take her own life and not her kids?

572
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 1: Like I. But that's that's the same person. That's I'm

573
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: sitting here in my chair with, you know, a relatively

574
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: sane mind, and that's not you know, there's no way

575
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: for me to understand.

576
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 2: That, right, right, I don't know. And sometimes I feel like,

577
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not gandhi. I can't just forgive everyone.

578
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 2: And I guess maybe I should be, I should be

579
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: striving for that. I don't know. I don't It'd be

580
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 2: hard for me to imagine feeling warm and fuzzy about

581
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 2: any psychopath, right, And like you watch Brian, and I

582
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 2: think that's part of what his resonated with all of us,

583
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 2: the eight million plus people that are watching it, is

584
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 2: he's a psychopath. There is no nothing human there.

585
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: Nothing human there? And where are his parents on all

586
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: of this? Do you know? I didn't see them in

587
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 1: the courtroom, Ember. I haven't heard any of theirs, so I.

588
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 2: Feel like they were in the court I think I remember,

589
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 2: not from the dock. I think I remember the mother.

590
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 2: There was footage at the beginning of the mother in

591
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 2: hysterics in the courtroom. Oh okay, I have to ask

592
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 2: my best friend AI. But I think that that was

593
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 2: the case that she was there and obviously she was

594
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 2: in hysterics but really screaming. But I could be making

595
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 2: it up.

596
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, the mom and his sister.

597
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 2: So I don't know, then imagine being his mom.

598
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: What responsibility do we think that? And this is so

599
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: you know, the parents personal I was going to say

600
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 1: the media have when covering real people's tragedies.

601
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think that there should probably be

602
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 2: stricter guidelines, I think. And I think that, like you

603
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 2: were saying earlier, every victim, every family member, it hits differently, right.

604
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 2: I'm sure there are some who want this crime to

605
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 2: be exposed, others who want it buried, you know, some

606
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 2: that want the murderer's name out there so that everyone knows,

607
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,879
Speaker 2: and some that don't want to give that person a name.

608
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 2: I think it probably there's probably a spectrum. So what's

609
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 2: the responsibility I guess to report the facts? I don't know,

610
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 2: as they as I don't know, you what do you think?

611
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: I mean? It's it's sort of a possible question to answer.

612
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: I think, certainly, yes, reporting the facts and also just

613
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 1: giving an emotional in my opinion, an emotional respect, and

614
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: a general grace when talking about any of these things.

615
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,479
Speaker 1: And I think there can always there's a fine line

616
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,720
Speaker 1: what's exploitative what is actually giving information and educating people.

617
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: But I think we all can tell the difference. And

618
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,879
Speaker 1: I think there are some entities that are very hell

619
00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: bent on just taking the headline and get as much

620
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: attention as they can and exploiting everybody to the gills. Yeah,

621
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 1: And I think it's pretty clear when that's happening and

622
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: when that isn't happening, And I just would like there

623
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:12,919
Speaker 1: to be a little more care.

624
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 2: I guess I would too. So in those cases, how

625
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,479
Speaker 2: should the media alter their responses if it's a case

626
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 2: like that.

627
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: I feel like it definitely should because this also struck

628
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: me in the Idaho murders doc. How you know kids today,

629
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: young people, everything is on video, right, They're taking everything

630
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: with their phones. All of the social media is about visually,

631
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 1: you know, not even capturing everything, just proving that you

632
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: did it or something. And so I think there is

633
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: there's a certain amount of you know, attention and kind

634
00:39:54,520 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: of ego inflation that young people get by being seen

635
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 1: in this way, by having their picture taken by things

636
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: being on video. So I think it's we have to

637
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 1: be really careful about not exploiting that, you know, like

638
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: showing these things all the time for young people's sake,

639
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: because they I don't know if they can differentiate between

640
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: what's a TikTok video or what's a snapchat thing and

641
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: what's real life, you know. I it's like, I think

642
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: we are getting into a really dangerous area in this way.

643
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,879
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is what we do right,

644
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 2: we do true crime And at the end of the day,

645
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 2: is it helping is it hurting? I mean, I'm voting

646
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 2: for it's helping. I think it's voting for.

647
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,240
Speaker 1: I think so I think what we are doing anyway

648
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: certainly like my moral compass. When before I even said

649
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: yes to doing this, I checked myself of like, why

650
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 1: am I so fascinated by this? And can I do

651
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: this post podcast in a way that will make me

652
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: feel that is an alignment with who I am and

653
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: what my spirit is and what I want to put

654
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 1: out into the world. And I really had to think

655
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: about it, and I said, yes I can, because I

656
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 1: care about humanity and how do we get there? And

657
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 1: if we don't start to understand what brings people to

658
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: these places. We're never going to stop it. And also

659
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: victims and the families they get some many receive healing

660
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: from being able to share their stories, their loved ones,

661
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 1: their their spirits.

662
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 2: May be remembered and showed. Yes, and I agree with

663
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 2: everything you just said. I think that also it's there's

664
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 2: something that can be you know, many of these the

665
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: human spirit is so resilient, So it can be watching

666
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 2: the victims their families there and watching the resilience, right,

667
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 2: and then watching what they do with the tragedies that

668
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 2: they've lived through. And so many you see so many victims,

669
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 2: you know, creating a better world, yes, because of.

670
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 1: Of what they've gone through.

671
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think that's so I all of that.

672
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 2: And then I also think that we are able to

673
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 2: put distance between ourselves and what we're watching. This is

674
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 2: this is you know, there's so many god, I mean

675
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 2: CSI crime, whatever it's called. And like people are so

676
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 2: intoll so able to watch some of this right because

677
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 2: it's sickening, and you just it's become so if you

678
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 2: can really you know, feel that this is these are people,

679
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 2: these are this is this really freaking happened right then

680
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 2: it becomes almost too hard. But again I think that

681
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 2: we have as humans the ability to sort of like

682
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 2: separate ourselves sometimes and watch it more like a story.

683
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:08,319
Speaker 1: Then and but see, then that's the question, right Is

684
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: that a good thing?

685
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I definitely think that that's you know,

686
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 2: you look at my daughter, cross eyed, she starts to

687
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 2: cry if there's a dog on the street. I mean,

688
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 2: she's just like that, or a god forbid, an old

689
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 2: person who is not having having lunch, a loan rache,

690
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 2: she's gone for two. But she loves true crime, Like

691
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:29,359
Speaker 2: what is that about? She loves to watch it and

692
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 2: you know, I don't.

693
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 1: I don't, So for her it is tapping into some

694
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: empathetic part of herself and her kind of like I.

695
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 2: Don't, I don't know, Like why there's so why are

696
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 2: so many Americans and I'm sure whatever people all over

697
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 2: the world but that are fascinated. Is it because like us,

698
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 2: they like to see also the best in humanity or

699
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 2: because it's just fascinating to watch monsters, you know, and

700
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 2: watch I don't. I don't know. And we should have

701
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 2: on I guess we should have on an expert And.

702
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do I mean any, I love talking to

703
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: the psychologists and the psychiatrists. I've really enjoyed some of

704
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: those interviews the most. And then I have like my

705
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: own little personal questions on the side.

706
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.

707
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: I do too.

708
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, I mean right, it's it's and Sky and

709
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 2: Joe and like you're doing this and this is your thing, right,

710
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: this is Sky's nieche I never I was. When I

711
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 2: spoke to her, I was so impressed. She what a brilliant,

712
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 2: lovely sympathetic woman, because you know, and this is this

713
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 2: is her jam and so why does she think that

714
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:47,280
Speaker 2: it's and Joe too?

715
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: He's he's really great and doing it for the great reasons. Yeah. Well,

716
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: I love these our chats so much. I hope I

717
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 1: hope the listeners do too. I do. I really love that.

718
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 2: I feel like it's just talking to you is so easy.

719
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 2: And also there's like this, and I also feel like

720
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 2: I hope the listeners feel this. There's just this no

721
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 2: judgmental thing that goes on, right, and this is all

722
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 2: such sticky, dirty, differentult subject matter.

723
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 1: Right, They're right. There's no sort of simple answer. There's

724
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: no way to like put a little bow on things.

725
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: It's just moncky all right.

726
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 2: Well, I love you, sister, I love you. Thanks guys,

727
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 2: Bye guys,