1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: On this episode of the News World. More than a 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: century after he dominated American politics, Woodrow Wilson still fascinates. 3 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: In his new book, wood Row Wilson, The Light Withdrawn, 4 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: Congressman Christopher Cox offers a panoramic reassessment of Wilson's life 5 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: and his controversial role in the movements for racial equality 6 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: in women's suffrage, A vivid picture of Wilson emerges, variously 7 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: influenced by politics, shifting social mores, and his own lived experience. 8 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,599 Speaker 1: Wilson is not the flawless paragon of legend, but a 9 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 1: complicated progressive whose deep seated prejudices scarred not only his 10 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: own legacy but the broader social landscape of twentieth century America. 11 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: Here to discuss his new book, I'm really pleased to 12 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: welcome my guest, an old friend who I served with 13 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:15,839 Speaker 1: in Congress, former Congressman Chris Cox. Chris, welcome, and thank 14 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: you for joining me on this world. 15 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 2: Well, it's really a pleasure. 16 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: When last I saw you, you were doing a variety 17 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: of very busy things, including chairing the US Securities Exchange Commission. 18 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,199 Speaker 1: You'd had a very significant role in the US House. 19 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: You had been a senior Associate Council to the President, 20 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: and now here we have this great book. How did 21 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: all those personal experiences in the real world affect how 22 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: you approached thinking about Wilson. 23 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 2: Well, of course, Wilson himself, you know, as a writer 24 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 2: and scholar of historian yourself, has been a consequential president 25 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 2: throughout the twentieth century and the twenty first. He will 26 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 2: always be consequential, whatever on makes of him. So he 27 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 2: stood out as a candidate for a biography for those 28 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 2: reasons alone. But I also got interested in Wilson because 29 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: of his role in women's suffrage. Ever since I was 30 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: in law school, I'd been interested in how women got 31 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 2: the vote and why it took so long. In the 32 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 2: early nineteen seventies, I wrote an article for the Harvard 33 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 2: Law Review about the first Supreme Court case to hold 34 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 2: that the Fourteenth Amendment applied to sex discrimination, but we 35 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 2: now call gender discrimination. The fourteenth Amendment, of course, is 36 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 2: the part of the Constitution that guarantees equal protection of 37 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: the laws. And that summer I had a long talk 38 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 2: with my grandmother that began when I asked her, what 39 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 2: was the first presidential election you voted in. We didn't 40 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 2: usually talk politics as my grandmother, but I was just curious, 41 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 2: and she looked at me as if I were obtuse. 42 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 2: Her tone of voice said it all nineteen twenty, that 43 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 2: was the first time we could vote, And of course 44 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 2: I immediately realized what a dumb quest question I'd asked. 45 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 2: The nineteenth Amendment, the Susan B. Anthony Amendment wasn't approved 46 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: until just a few months before the nineteen twenty election, 47 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 2: So I asked her who'd you vote for? And she 48 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 2: said harding Naturally, Republicans were the ones who got us 49 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: to vote, and that was something I'd never heard before, 50 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: and it was actually true. In Minnesota, where she lived 51 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty, a Republican legislature and governor had adopted 52 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 2: women suffrage by state law earlier in nineteen twenty, ahead 53 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 2: of the Anthony Amendment. But I then later learned while 54 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 2: it was true that Republicans were the earliest supporters of 55 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 2: women's suffrage, going all the way back to Reconstruction, and 56 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:42,559 Speaker 2: in Congress, they supported it in significantly greater numbers than Democrats, 57 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 2: even as late as nineteen twenty, there were many Democratic 58 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 2: supporters as well in the States and in Washington, d C. 59 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 2: So the story turned out to be much more complicated 60 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 2: and to me much more interesting. So when I retired 61 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 2: from law practice, which I had returned to after Washington, 62 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 2: dove into this research and found it just fascinating, and 63 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 2: it was left out of all of the standard Wilson biographies. 64 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: Well, I have to confess I was surprised. I had 65 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: no idea how strongly he felt that women should not vote. 66 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 2: And it was very closely connected to his views on race, 67 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 2: his views on women, which started out being sort of 68 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 2: very traditional women's places in the home, that sort of 69 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 2: thing mellowed over the years. He had three daughters, and 70 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 2: they were suffragists themselves, two of the three fairly actively, 71 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 2: even while he was President of Princeton and then President 72 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 2: of the United States. But he still harbored views even 73 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 2: as late as the middle of his presidency, leaning towards 74 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: you know, it would be better if women didn't vote, 75 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: But he kept those two himself. Publicly he was in 76 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 2: favor of women voting, but by the state method states only, 77 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: not a federal amen. And the reason he opposed a 78 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: federal amendment to Susan B. Anthony Amendment, which had been 79 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: introduced all the way back to reconstruction year after year 80 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: in Congress, was that it contained federal enforcement which would 81 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 2: prevent Jim Crow States from keeping black people from the polls, 82 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 2: and that he expressed fairly directly in private. 83 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: One of the things that's most surprising is how clearly 84 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: he is for protecting segregation and is in essence anti black. 85 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: As you went through all your research, were you surprised 86 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: by the clarity and intensity of that feeling. 87 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 2: Yes, I was, because it's very easy to imagine that 88 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 2: Wilson was a man of his time. Racism was very 89 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 2: virulent in the United States and regionally, particularly in the South, 90 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 2: but was hardly unusual for white people across the political 91 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 2: spectrum to have various degrees of racial prejudice. So coming 92 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 2: into it, one might generously think that even though he 93 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 2: segregated the federal government, that this was not a terribly 94 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 2: unusual position for someone of his time to hold. But 95 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: it was, in fact, and leaving all presentism aside, not 96 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 2: judging him by the standards and mores in our own 97 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 2: experience of our own time, looking at him through the 98 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 2: eyes of progressives of his time, looking at at least 99 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 2: northern progressives, looking at him through the eyes of Republicans 100 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: of the time through practical political considerations. He was an outlier. 101 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 2: This idea of introducing segregation into the federal workforce for 102 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,559 Speaker 2: the first time in fifty years. That was really out there, 103 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 2: and it is very surprising to see the criticism that 104 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 2: he got from people on the left who were his 105 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 2: supporters and trying to help him. He's stuck to it. 106 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 2: That was part of his idea of how the world 107 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 2: should work. 108 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: But at the same time, as your book points out, 109 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: he's more flexible about the role of women and women 110 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: being allowed to vote. 111 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: Yes. He came around very gradually, mostly being dragged by 112 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 2: public opinion. State after state after state was at least 113 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 2: considering women's suffrage, and a dozen states had done so 114 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 2: by the time he ran for reelection in nineteen sixteen, 115 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 2: and so the anti amendment was picking up steam, if 116 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 2: for no other reason than that, and so he had 117 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 2: gradually to move his own position. But privately, inside the 118 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 2: White House, he confessed to a woman friend of his, 119 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 2: Nancy Saunders Toy, wife of a Harvard professor, who was 120 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 2: a house guest at the White House at the time, 121 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 2: that he believed that if women voted, that this would 122 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 2: destroy home life, who would do the housework? 123 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: Hey, I'm not sure that's a debate I'd wanted to 124 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: defend today when you look at all this, despite his prejudices, 125 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: as you record in your book, he keeps meeting with 126 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: women's groups. Why do you think he was unable to 127 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: avoid meeting with all his groups? 128 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: Well, he was very successful politically, I mean, one way 129 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 2: to look at his career, you know, having leaped from 130 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: academia to a brief stint of a couple of years 131 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 2: as government New Jersey, but really starting his presidential campaign 132 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 2: during his first year as governor, and then finding himself 133 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 2: in the White House after two years. He's a supernova. 134 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 2: So the man knew what he was doing when it 135 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 2: came to running for office. He wanted to keep his 136 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 2: friends close and his enemies closer. He did that as 137 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 2: long as he could. But he got his back up 138 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 2: when Alice Paul the National Women's Party were so directly 139 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 2: critical of him. The larger of the two national suffrage groups, 140 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 2: the National American Women's Suffrage Association, played a very different 141 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 2: game with him, and they were very friendly and every 142 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 2: time he turned them down, they would smile and come 143 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 2: back for more later and just keep working on him. Ironically, 144 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: while those two women's groups were feuding with each other, 145 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: they were really helping each other because it was the 146 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 2: good cop bad cop approach and the overt criticism of 147 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 2: Wilson that was launched at him by the National Women's 148 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: Party would always give the NASA women, the National American 149 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 2: Women Suffrage Association, an opportunity to say in the press, oh, 150 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 2: we don't like their approach, we think they should respect 151 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 2: the president and so on. But then they'd get their 152 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 2: column inches about how important the Anthony monment was. 153 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: He gradually warms to the idea, and how much that 154 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: do you think was a reelection calculation that he doesn't 155 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: actually publicly endorse a federal Women's Suffrage AMOMEN until nineteen eighteen, 156 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: So he gets through the nineteen sixteen election without having 157 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 1: endorse it. But then he does finally in nineteen eighteen 158 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: endorsement and goes step further and ask Congress to consider 159 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: whether women should be admitted to a partnership of privilege 160 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: and right. That's sort of the breaking point in his 161 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: own thinking. What do you think drove him to finally 162 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: cave in and say, Okay, I'm going to do this thing. 163 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: That I've been turning down for six years. 164 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 2: When you go through the TikTok of who was meeting 165 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 2: with him, what he was saying to them, what he 166 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 2: would and would not do, it was very clear that 167 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 2: at every juncture he put it off. He tried to 168 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 2: stave off the Anthony Amendment for as long as he could. 169 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 2: His conversion came about the night before. Two thirds of 170 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 2: the House have representatives voted for a constitutional amendment. I 171 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 2: don't have to tell you that when two thirds of 172 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 2: the House votes for something, it's probably not politically unpopular. 173 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 2: And this is a parade that Wilson reluctantly stepped in 174 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 2: front of. He met with a group of Democratic House 175 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 2: members the night before. They had asked for the meeting. 176 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 2: The meeting almost didn't happen because he wouldn't respond to them. 177 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: That they got in the night before and they met 178 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: for an hour, and they pleaded with him to please 179 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 2: not put the Democratic Party in a position where we 180 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 2: could be held responsible for losing this thing. They thought 181 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 2: they had a dozen votes in hand, but they weren't sure, 182 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: and they really didn't like the idea that the president 183 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 2: might even say something against the Anthony amendments. So they 184 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 2: wanted clarity, and all he gave them was a ghost 185 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 2: written statement of a couple sentences that he not say 186 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 2: in his own voice, but that they would say. They 187 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 2: asked him, and he said, And then when the DNC 188 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 2: tried to put out a press release that had a 189 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 2: little bit more texture to it about what the President 190 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 2: was thinking and so, and he said, I absolutely refused 191 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 2: to be quoted on it. So it was the most 192 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 2: reluctant kind of thing. And then for months after that 193 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: he said not a word about the Anthony Amendment. He 194 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 2: didn't congratulate the House or remark upon it when it 195 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,319 Speaker 2: passed the next day, and he tried to stay out 196 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 2: of it for as long as he could. And then, finally, 197 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 2: as you point out, months later, at the instance of 198 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 2: his son in law, who was the Secretary of the Treasury, 199 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 2: he made a last minute decision on a Sunday to 200 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 2: go address the Senate and say he was in favor 201 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 2: of the antheymen as a war measure because Democrats they 202 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 2: had at the midterm lost control of Congress, and this 203 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 2: was going to be their last chance to pass the 204 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 2: Anthony moniment on the Democrats watch. So it was a 205 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 2: very political thing that he did. It was not a 206 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 2: matter of the heart. 207 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: It's just saying too. This is in the context of 208 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: the war. It's fascinating to me that Wilson takes a 209 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: extraordinarily expanded sense of what the war was about and 210 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: somehow had to translate it into a moral crusade to 211 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 1: justify our involvement. I mean, how do you see the 212 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: process of Wilson's mind coming to grips with the US 213 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: and the world and then making a proposal that is 214 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: profoundly revolutionary in terms of trying to create a supranational organization. 215 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 2: This is of course what Wilson is best known for. 216 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: When he was in Paris, which was an extraordinary thing 217 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 2: all by itself because no president had ever done anything 218 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 2: like this. You leave the country for six months at 219 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 2: a time when there was really very little in the 220 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 2: way of transatlantic communication. So he was cut off from 221 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 2: his country for that period of time. And as the 222 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 2: months wore on in Paris, he gradually decided that the 223 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 2: League of Nations was really all that mattered, and that's 224 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 2: what the United States really needed to get out of 225 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 2: the settlement of the war, and so he in essence 226 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 2: traded off what all the other countries wanted, which was 227 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: territory and money and so on out of the war, 228 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 2: the usual things that European wars were about. For concessions 229 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 2: on the League of Nations as he wanted it. And 230 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 2: then he was so prideful of his creation when he 231 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 2: brought it back to Congress, which he had really not 232 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 2: kept informed at all of the process. They had not 233 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 2: been included in any way. He insisted that no change 234 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,359 Speaker 2: be made, so it was a very personal thing. And 235 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 2: by not going along with the advice of Democrats in 236 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 2: the Senate to accept the so called mild reservations that 237 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 2: had been offered in the deal that would have brought 238 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 2: the United States into the League of Nations and allowed 239 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 2: us to approve the Paris Treaty, he instructed Democrats to 240 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 2: vote against it, and Democrats who actually supported the treaty 241 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 2: and actually supported the League of Nations were responsible for 242 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 2: voting it down. 243 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: If he had accepted the modified treaty, it would. 244 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 2: Have passed, right, Yes, absolutely. 245 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: When do you think that his health began to really 246 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: break into this and make it more difficult because he 247 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: criss crossed the country making speeches and trying to build 248 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: pressure on the Congress. I think he probably ruined his 249 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: health by the intensity of his campaign, But what's your 250 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: reading of that whole experience. 251 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 2: No question, it was a very marked break because by 252 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: the time he made it back from that trip, which 253 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 2: he had to cut short, where he was out evangelizing 254 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 2: for the League of Nations in speeches across the country, 255 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 2: he was on the verge of a very significant stroke 256 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 2: that left him paralyzed, unable to speak or at least 257 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 2: unable to speak with any clarity, couldn't write, couldn't sign documents, 258 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 2: really was just disabled in a major way. Then he 259 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 2: was kept closeted up for months so that the public 260 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 2: could not see him in this condition. The government was 261 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 2: left to run itself, and his own personality markedly changed. 262 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 2: By the accounts of all who were around him, he 263 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 2: was natively stubborn, It's why he had gotten in a 264 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 2: fight with the Princeton Board of Trustees and net to 265 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 2: make the leap into politics. At the time, that was 266 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 2: part of his personality, but it became ten x when 267 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 2: he had this stroke and sequel afterwards. He became a 268 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 2: very unreasonable person, rejected all advice, and of course he 269 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 2: had very little contact with what was going on around him, 270 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 2: He was cut off from meetings. His second wife, Edith, 271 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 2: tried to protect his health by making sure that she 272 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 2: screened him from all of these things. So the combination 273 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 2: of stubbornness and not having any situational awareness put him 274 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 2: in this position where the few decisions he made, such 275 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: as instructing Democrats to vote against his treaty, were very 276 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 2: bad decisions. 277 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: Indeed, at what point does he get so sick that 278 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: his wife basically takes over. 279 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 2: This happens in September after the stroke, and it really 280 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 2: marks the end of his presidency. He somewhat recovers some 281 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 2: months later, he's being wheeled into cabinet meetings where according 282 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 2: to the man who wheeled him in, he sat stunned 283 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 2: and speechless. He was really a ghost of his former self. 284 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 1: It's really startling how much power she had in that 285 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: brief period, and how much the Democrats, who really had 286 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: been in a row. By nineteen twenty, with the economic 287 00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 1: depression and with fighting over the league, they really get crushed. 288 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: They go from remarkably successful eight years to just throwing 289 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: it all away in the eighth year. And that has 290 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: to be a piece of Wilson's legacy. 291 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 2: On the subject of Edith, you know, entire books have 292 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 2: been written about her role and about that subject. It's 293 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: fascinating to speculate about the first woman president, or the 294 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 2: machi Avlian first lady who secretly manipulates the federal government 295 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 2: while her husband's incapacitated, the female rasputant who convinces the 296 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 2: helpless invalid to agree to her own plans for the country. 297 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 2: But I think Edith Wilson can be criticized for other things, 298 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 2: which I can go into, but I would absolve her 299 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 2: of being a power hungry, illegitimate president operating in the shadows. 300 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 2: I say this because that's not what she did. First 301 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: and foremost, she was concerned about the president's health, and 302 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 2: so what she did was keep work away from him. 303 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 2: Her great sin was keeping the truth away from the 304 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 2: American people. And Wilson's great sin, because I think he 305 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 2: had enough presence of mind even in that condition to 306 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 2: know that he couldn't discharge the duties of the presidency 307 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 2: was to hang onto the job. And of course, the 308 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 2: reality of what had happened to Wilson was far worse 309 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: than anyone in Washington, let alone the rest of the country. 310 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 2: Could imagine after that major stroke that he had in 311 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 2: October nineteen nineteen, if anyone had been able just to 312 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 2: look at him, they could tell that something had gone 313 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 2: terribly wrong. He suffered from double vision, from frequent dizzy spells, 314 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 2: all his muscles were weak, his memory was faulty. Edith 315 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 2: went to extraordinary lengths to conceal all of that, and 316 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 2: she had allies his personal physician, Carrie Grayson, the White 317 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 2: House Chief of Staff then known as the White House Secretary, 318 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 2: Joseph Tummulty. It was a full four months that she 319 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 2: kept him in seclusion, so her significant function being to 320 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 2: keep things away from the president was not really a 321 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 2: way for her to impose her will, but simply to 322 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 2: protect her husband's health. I just think that the election 323 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 2: defeat that the Democrats faced, being one of the worst 324 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,239 Speaker 2: in American history at the time, probably wouldn't have been 325 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 2: avoided had Wilson been himself. But that surely was a 326 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 2: terrible ending to his administration. That didn't help. 327 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: You have this very dynamic figure at the beginning who 328 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 1: had been I guess, one of the two or three 329 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: leading political science students, and his book on Congress was 330 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: considered sort of a landmark in the nineteenth century. He 331 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: does emerge as a reform president at Princeton in a 332 00:20:55,359 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 1: very controversial way. He then emerges as they progress governor 333 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: of New Jersey, and within two years he's president. It's 334 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: an extraordinary period, and then it has this sort of 335 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 1: tragic ending and really beaten. Before his stroke, he misreads 336 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: the Congress, he doesn't take any of the Republican leadership 337 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 1: with him to Paris. He becomes more and more isolated 338 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: and in away. The last two years of his presidency 339 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: almost unwined all the great history of the first six years, 340 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,239 Speaker 1: and for a long time we tended to skip past that. 341 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: But I think as people have looked at him more 342 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: and more they realize that there was something profoundly wrong 343 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: from the middle of nineteen nineteen on. But does that 344 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: sort of fit your sense of it? 345 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 2: It? Does? You know? I think also you have to 346 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,400 Speaker 2: notice the sharp line of demarcation between his first term 347 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 2: and his second term, because he had run as the 348 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 2: peace candidate in nineteen sixteen for his reelect, and that 349 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 2: was the popular view. People did not want to enter 350 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 2: the European War, at least when the main that's what 351 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 2: got him elected president. The Western states where most of 352 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 2: the women suffrage states were located, were all thought to 353 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 2: be Republican, and women given the ballot, you ended up 354 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 2: voting for the peace candidate. That's at least the takeaway 355 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 2: of all the major media at the time. In California, 356 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 2: where Republican registration was two to one over the Democrats, 357 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 2: that was supposed to be a guinea and instead what 358 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 2: happened is that Wilson won the state and therefore the presidency, 359 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 2: because if Hughes had won California, he would have become 360 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 2: president by a margin of three four and twenty one votes. 361 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 2: Now you have the peace president in Washington, and all 362 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 2: of the people who had supported the Peace candidate, who 363 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 2: were pacifists that came to Washington to complain because very 364 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 2: shortly after his inauguration he asked for a declaration of war, 365 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 2: were shut down. There are civil liberties all denied. He 366 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 2: became a very different president in nineteen seventeen after his inauguration, 367 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 2: and from that point on it wasn't just he was 368 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 2: a war president. It was that he in unprecedented ways 369 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 2: shut down civil liberties in America, imprisoned his enemies, including 370 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 2: women suffragists, nationalized a great deal of what went on 371 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 2: in the United States. Took over the railroads, we had 372 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 2: price controls on most things. We had coal shortages, we 373 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,479 Speaker 2: shut down manufacturing in the East Coast on regular days, 374 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 2: all sorts of disruptions in American life. Runaway inflation, I 375 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 2: mean really huge inflation, nothing like what we're talking about today. 376 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 2: And so when Harding comes around and is talking about 377 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 2: a return to normalcy, that's what he meant, and that really, 378 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 2: I think was going to happen. And no matter what 379 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 2: whether or not Wilson had his stroke. 380 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: I have to ask you one thing totally off the book, 381 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: but I remembered that you were a senior social council 382 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: to President Reagan during the period that included around Contra. 383 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: That must a period of real stress. What was that like? 384 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 2: But it was, of course devastating to President Reagan As 385 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 2: the facts became clear what had happened there. He famously 386 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 2: went on television to say that his heart told him 387 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 2: one thing, but the facts told him another. It was 388 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 2: the only time that I ever saw President Reagan not 389 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 2: look physically vigorous. It obviously took a toll on him. 390 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 2: I was in the Council's office the Council's Office actually 391 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 2: expanded to hire I don't know, eighty one hundred lawyers 392 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 2: that worked in the old Executive Office building just to 393 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 2: respond to all the document requests and that sort of thing. 394 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 2: So it was a major distraction from all the other 395 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 2: things that the president had to do. Personally, for me, 396 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 2: it was actually a quite happy thing that all these 397 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 2: other people were assigned to handle a round contract, because 398 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 2: then I got to do all the other things in 399 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 2: the Council's Office portfolio that had nothing to do with that. 400 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time in meetings on reforming 401 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 2: the budget process and things like that. So it was 402 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 2: not all bad from a personal standpoint, but you have 403 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,360 Speaker 2: very difficult thing for the country, for the president himself 404 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 2: and for the operations. 405 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: Did your lessons being in the executive branch at that 406 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: level primarently teach you some things that you probably couldn't 407 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: have learned any other way. 408 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 2: Yea, oh absolutely. And this was my first job in politics, 409 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 2: you know. I've been a partner in a law firm 410 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 2: out in California, and now I'm working as a lawyer 411 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 2: for the president in the White House, you know, And 412 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 2: I was in my thirties. It was very eye opening 413 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 2: and honestly the most exciting time in my whole working career, 414 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 2: just because of those unusual circumstances, so much to learn 415 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 2: and so much to see, and President Reagan, who I 416 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 2: very much appreciated time I did not appreciate would be 417 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 2: so unusual compared to other presidents before and after, so 418 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 2: I was really fortunate in that respect. 419 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: I want to thank you, first of all, as a 420 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: friend who served together in the House. It's great to 421 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 1: be back with you. You've done interesting work. I somehow 422 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: would never quite have associated you with this kind of great, 423 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: original historic work. I think Woodrow Wilson The Light Withdrawn 424 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: is a terrific book and a very interesting introduction to 425 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: Wilson from angles that have almost never been covered before. 426 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: And I want to thank you personally for joining me. 427 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 1: We're going to make Woodrow Wilson The Light Withdraw and 428 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: available both on our show page and of course it's 429 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: available now on Amazon and in bookstores everywhere. So Chris, 430 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: thank you very much. 431 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much. And since we're sharing some 432 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 2: personal thoughts here at the end, I'll say that your 433 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 2: book Gettysburg, a novel of the Civil War, was the 434 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 2: first serious book that my son read when he was 435 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 2: in junior high I guess, and that made him a 436 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 2: lifelong fan of history. So you have one member of 437 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 2: the Cox family who is personally indebted to you that way. 438 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 2: Thank you very much and really a pleasure to talk 439 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 2: to you today. 440 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Chris Cox. You can get 441 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book Woodrow Wilson, The 442 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: Light Withdrawn on our show page at nutsworld dot com. 443 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 1: Newtsworld is produced by gaing Wistrey sixty and iHeartMedia. Our 444 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 445 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 446 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Ginglistrey sixty. If you've 447 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: been enjoying Nutsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple podcast 448 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: and both rate us with five stars and give us 449 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: a review so others can learn what it's all about. 450 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newtsworld can sign up for my 451 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: three free weekly columns at Ginglishfie sixty dot com slash 452 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: newsletter I'm nut Ginglish. This is nuts World.