Speaker 1: Worrying today's episode could take spoilers for the finale of
Speaker 1: sever and season two, Cold Cold Harbor. Hello, what it is?
Speaker 1: Jason GETSPSI and I'm Rosey Night and welcome back to
Speaker 1: x Ray Vision of the podcast where we dive p Dear,
Speaker 1: Raver Jones, Movies, Collin's Above, Culture, coverany You from Myra
Speaker 1: podcast where we're bringing you three episodes a week every Tuesday, Wednesday,
Speaker 1: and Thursday, plus news on the weekends.
Speaker 2: In today's episode, we are talking about Subern's finale, Cold Harbor.
Speaker 2: Did you find out what Cold Opera is?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's up for debate, but we'll be debating it. We're
Speaker 2: gonna recap the finale, We're gonna talk about off theories,
Speaker 2: We're gonna talk about where it leads us in the
Speaker 2: newly an out season three. And also, remember, guys, programming notes,
Speaker 2: if you want to be involved in book club, if
Speaker 2: you haven't done it yet, it feels too much of
Speaker 2: a big lift. We are doing a single issue for
Speaker 2: our next book Club. It is Thunderbolts Issue one by
Speaker 2: Kat Buziak and Mark Bagley, and you are going to
Speaker 2: be shocked and surprised when you read that comic So remember,
Speaker 2: get it from Marvel Unlimited, get it from your local library,
Speaker 2: get it from your local comic shop. That's going to
Speaker 2: be our next book.
Speaker 1: Club Severance, Season two, episode ten, the finale, we pick
Speaker 1: up right after the events of episode nine. We are
Speaker 1: at the Berthing Cabin. Rosie Cobel is confronting any Mark
Speaker 1: about Cold Harbor?
Speaker 2: Did you finish it? Did you finish it? Cold Harbor?
Speaker 1: And he hasn't finished it, meaning Jemma is still alive.
Speaker 1: Cobel is relieved. Any Mark then admits that, oh, we
Speaker 1: know where the elevator is. Because Cobel is kind of explaining, Okay,
Speaker 1: there's gonna be this elevator going down and it's this
Speaker 1: dark elevator at the end of this twisty set of hallways.
Speaker 1: He said, oh yeah, yeah, we know about it from
Speaker 1: Irving's drawings. Meanwhile, in Mdr Helly is at her workstation.
Speaker 1: When who should walk in but her Audie's father, James
Speaker 1: Joe Biden asked raspy, weak voice, he.
Speaker 4: Said, he says, oh, what a funny speech you get.
Speaker 2: The other event the other night, did I drink a lot?
Speaker 4: Oh? So cross at you throw a dinner candy so mad,
Speaker 4: and then he comes and closed and he says, you
Speaker 4: know what, my daughter, you're audi.
Speaker 1: I don't really love her.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, dude, seriously, this is like my worst
Speaker 2: nightmare because I'm like, you know what, Dad's they never
Speaker 2: been doing a lot for me. And imagine this. Imagine
Speaker 2: if your dad's talking to like a fake budgeon of
Speaker 2: you that was just made to be inside a shop.
Speaker 2: And then he's telling that person, He's like, I don't
Speaker 2: love that outside door. I you know you're bad because
Speaker 2: you I can control you can't leave, Like come on, man.
Speaker 1: Like I don't I don't love her, and he says that.
Speaker 1: He then says very creepily, as has been suggested over
Speaker 1: the course of many episodes episode Others in the Shadows,
Speaker 1: which is like, okay, a bad person, and he says
Speaker 1: that the reason he doesn't love his daughter Helena anymore
Speaker 1: is she no longer reflects here. She thought he thought
Speaker 1: he saw cure in her, but then now as she
Speaker 1: grew up, he doesn't. And then Helly he comes in closer,
Speaker 1: and Helly like picks up a and she's like ready
Speaker 1: to fucking like she's going John wa like fucking Jason
Speaker 1: Board like like in the jugular with the points, probably
Speaker 1: just the ball pen. She probably should have done it,
Speaker 1: and he he goes, that's here. I see it in you.
Speaker 1: I see here in you. And I think the implication
Speaker 1: for season three, and something we've discussed in this as
Speaker 1: we've covered this, is he might be thinking, let's bust
Speaker 1: out Helene, let's bust out helly R, turn her into
Speaker 1: the Audi, because I see here in her, and let
Speaker 1: just that's my daughter. Now we'll put Helena elsewhere and
Speaker 1: just won't ever turn her on again, and that's gonna
Speaker 1: be Maybe you're maybe your INNI is now your Audi. WHOA,
Speaker 1: Maybe that's what he's thinking about.
Speaker 2: I do think as well, because I like, and I'll
Speaker 2: just go like your kind of idea that helly R
Speaker 2: is the real Helena, right, that's like her prime personality.
Speaker 2: And I think there's something incredibly bleak and incredibly severance
Speaker 2: about the idea that he can basically just decide which
Speaker 2: version of her he wants, and we actually have no
Speaker 2: idea how many times she has been severed, how many
Speaker 2: versions of her there bra When he talked about birthing
Speaker 2: others in the shadows, obviously we know he's been doing
Speaker 2: his weird like buffing cabin shit.
Speaker 1: But I was also like to different, we can only
Speaker 1: imagine this sexual assault.
Speaker 2: Happening like sexual assault happening in the cabin.
Speaker 1: Back in the cabin, the negotiation between any Mark and
Speaker 1: the conspirators Kobel, Audie, Mark, and Devin begins. Cobell tells
Speaker 1: any Mark that you're gonna need to here's the plan.
Speaker 1: You're gonna go down to MDR. Then you're gonna look
Speaker 1: for the elevator. You're gonna go down. You're gonna go
Speaker 1: to the test floor, where you'll become your audi. Audie
Speaker 1: Mark will take it over from there. He will get
Speaker 1: Gemma Gemma. He will get Gemma on the elevator, at
Speaker 1: which point you will take back over right and she
Speaker 1: will be miss Casey and then you're going to get
Speaker 1: her to the stairwell and you will both escape. Okay,
Speaker 1: how does that sound? And any Mark is like that
Speaker 1: sounds pretty good. What happens to me? And then Devon
Speaker 1: is like listen, And then I think if they're I
Speaker 1: don't want to lay all the blame for this at
Speaker 1: the feet of Devon. I think this is a Cobel
Speaker 1: plot which I will lay I agree, but like Devin
Speaker 1: and Audi, Mark will handle this conversation in exactly the
Speaker 1: wrong way, and Devin says exactly the wrong thing. She says, well,
Speaker 1: you know, when Jemma is rescued, we can end Lumen,
Speaker 1: which Adie Mark receives as I'm dead. So you want
Speaker 1: me to die?
Speaker 2: Unastoundable.
Speaker 1: You want me to give my life to save the
Speaker 1: wife of my Audi, who I don't know is and
Speaker 1: all my friends are gonna die, like is so? Is
Speaker 1: that what you're saying? And so this proves to be
Speaker 1: a pretty a pretty huge point of contention. So then
Speaker 1: Audie Mark takes over and they play him a recording
Speaker 1: of Audie Mark, and Audie Mark, for his part, I think,
Speaker 1: does not realize how insanely condescending he is sounding.
Speaker 2: Oh he's so. I was like I was watching this shit,
Speaker 2: and I was like, I would not be doing it,
Speaker 2: like I would say, buck OUTI Mark like he is
Speaker 2: the kind I think. Something that's really interesting here is
Speaker 2: kind of the the supremacy issues that we run into here,
Speaker 2: of the idea of like who is the prime personality,
Speaker 2: who is the real person that that we that kind
Speaker 2: of has the definitive choice over what's going on in severance,
Speaker 2: whether it's any other aUI, whether it's a collaboration. And look, Jason,
Speaker 2: you got to tell them what you would do, because
Speaker 2: you're right.
Speaker 1: Well let's get there. Let's so basically it goes back
Speaker 1: and forth, and it goes very poorly for Audie Mark, right,
Speaker 1: any Mark doesn't want to do it.
Speaker 2: There's he doesn't have the juice, he can't lie outing.
Speaker 1: Well, here's the issue. It's like the ego death card, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're not arguing with Audie Mark's problem is he thinks
Speaker 1: that he's arguing with this like more simplistic, naive, more
Speaker 1: childlike version of himself, when in fact, he's arguing with
Speaker 1: himself just as smart, just as driven, just as like
Speaker 1: dedicated to the things that he cares about as Audi
Speaker 1: Mark is. And so here's what I listen, here's I
Speaker 1: think Cobel personally. If I have a theory, it's that
Speaker 1: Kobel wants to tear down Lumen and make as much
Speaker 1: chaos as possible. And because of that, she didn't really
Speaker 1: like she knows a lot obviously about the Severn's process.
Speaker 1: And I think she and she deals with several people
Speaker 1: all the time innies and outies. She should have coached
Speaker 1: both Devin and Mark. Okay, here's what we have to
Speaker 1: say that because who's lied until the it needs more
Speaker 1: than fucking Cobell.
Speaker 2: Literally, because the only way.
Speaker 1: To get the only way to get any Mark to
Speaker 1: do this is to lie.
Speaker 2: You have you have to lie to him. You have
Speaker 2: to be like, we can both exist.
Speaker 1: You gotta yeah, and you're not gonna die. Reintegration, this
Speaker 1: was your idea. Hey, what you might have seen the
Speaker 1: flashes Audi Mark says like of the reintegration, Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a cool process. We're gonna get to both be together
Speaker 1: as the same person. I would have said, oh uh,
Speaker 1: they're gonna split usup. We're gonna be changing.
Speaker 2: They know how to get people up. They know that
Speaker 2: it's gonna l us off.
Speaker 1: And you're gonna be yours and you're gonna do your
Speaker 1: own thing fully planning to get my wife back and
Speaker 1: then never turn the son of a bitch on ever again.
Speaker 2: Also as well, you know what else I think is
Speaker 2: like and that's not Jason's moral judgment. That's just Jason's
Speaker 2: correct judgment of how Autemoc would have had to play this.
Speaker 2: But like I also think I I love the writing
Speaker 2: in this because suddenly you know this whole time you've
Speaker 2: kind of been told to like root for out a mock.
Speaker 2: But then you do realize in this interaction like he
Speaker 2: is no better than anyone else who thinks an any
Speaker 2: is less than himself, you know. And I think they
Speaker 2: do such a good job, such a heartbreaking job. And
Speaker 2: you see this is the moment where he deeply fucks
Speaker 2: up when he says, I hear that you're in love
Speaker 2: with someone too, like.
Speaker 3: Helene, and I'm like, bro not heleneying of course, when
Speaker 3: when Helena comes to Mark at the Chinese restaurant and
Speaker 3: purposely gets his wife's wrong wife's name wrong.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And in that moment you just see like any
Speaker 2: marks like, oh, this guy doesn't give up because like
Speaker 2: he's like he doesn't care about me, He's not interested
Speaker 2: in anything to do with my life. I also do
Speaker 2: think he makes a good point, which is essentially like, well,
Speaker 2: why haven't you done this before? Like why don't didn't
Speaker 2: you care about my interior life before? And now it's
Speaker 2: just about saving your wife. And they literally are in
Speaker 2: a situation where Alimark is showing you can communicate with
Speaker 2: your any like you can do it, Like he could
Speaker 2: have shown this interest before he could, but he didn't
Speaker 2: because now it's about saving Gemma and that's what he
Speaker 2: cares about. And honestly, I am a saved Gema. I'm
Speaker 2: on the save Gema standpoint. I do. I found this
Speaker 2: episode very hard to watch, but yeah, it in this mode.
Speaker 1: Autie Mark sucks so much as I mean, this is
Speaker 1: a show about I think systems and not this is
Speaker 1: it's about the effect of systems on people. And this
Speaker 1: is a system that sets people up to be antagonists.
Speaker 1: And no matter how much you want to cooperate, and
Speaker 1: no matter how much you believe you have shared interests
Speaker 1: that would create a space through which you could cooperate,
Speaker 1: you can't because you're on this side and you're on
Speaker 1: the other.
Speaker 2: That's a fantastic point.
Speaker 1: Personally, And you know, I think that there is obviously
Speaker 1: innies are oppressed, and there's just a lot of philosophical
Speaker 1: ways to think about this. Like I think any person
Speaker 1: who was dealing who was dealing with what Audi Mark
Speaker 1: was dealing with, would think, I'm gonna lie to this
Speaker 1: fucking inny and then I'm gonna kill him as soon
Speaker 1: as I get my wife back, which I desperately need
Speaker 1: to do. And I don't believe that it's possible as
Speaker 1: an AUDI to think of a piece of yourself as
Speaker 1: a person. I think that there is probably some kind
Speaker 1: ofsophical barrier that would not let you do that. While
Speaker 1: if you step back, I think it's clear that the
Speaker 1: Inneyes are people. There are a lot of There's just
Speaker 1: so many. I mean I said this previously. I think
Speaker 1: that there is like a space to think about innis
Speaker 1: and audis in the language of choice, meaning by which
Speaker 1: I mean to say, if I choose with my body
Speaker 1: to create another consciousness that's a version of me inside
Speaker 1: my body, then I can also kill that consciousness because
Speaker 1: it's me and I created it in my body, and
Speaker 1: I created it, and I created it. No, you know,
Speaker 1: no face, no case, as they say, there's no body,
Speaker 1: there's no client, it's me.
Speaker 2: And there's no weapon because you're just handing it off. No.
Speaker 1: I don't agree with that fully, but I think that
Speaker 1: that's an argument that wants me.
Speaker 2: I think it's a very interesting philosophical argument. And I
Speaker 2: have to say as well, like watching this show has
Speaker 2: made me consider like when I used to work in
Speaker 2: I used to work in a bar that was part
Speaker 2: of a cinema, and I would work there and then
Speaker 2: we would go to other places afterwards and we would
Speaker 2: work behind bars and do like contract bartending. And when
Speaker 2: I think about it, I'm like, wow, that Rosie was
Speaker 2: really going through it just so Rosie at home could
Speaker 2: just like lay in her bed and pay her rent.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, wait a minute, this is actually far
Speaker 2: more of a direct line to the kind of way
Speaker 2: we experience work in an analogous sense than it is
Speaker 2: like some crazy fictional idea. Like I actually think that
Speaker 2: when you start breaking up the way that your life works,
Speaker 2: especially if you have to work in like a service job,
Speaker 2: you almost do live outside of your experiences at work.
Speaker 2: And a lot of times, I have to be honest,
Speaker 2: being out e Rosie laying in the bed, it wasn't
Speaker 2: great because I was tired and I was hungover, and
Speaker 2: I wasn't getting the experiences of you know that Mark
Speaker 2: gets with this disconnection. So I just think this show,
Speaker 2: I think that is the true success so this show,
Speaker 2: because I think we do need to talk about like
Speaker 2: the success of the finale and whether it works for people,
Speaker 2: whether it doesn't. But I think the true success of
Speaker 2: the show is it really does capture these conversations about
Speaker 2: work and workers and systems and corporations and how we
Speaker 2: kind of split our lives up to exist within them.
Speaker 2: But then obviously in this case, it adds like a
Speaker 2: physical element to it and an emotional element that I
Speaker 2: think we really get into as our Ema kind of
Speaker 2: showcases his his kind of lack of respect or his
Speaker 2: lack of a plan.
Speaker 1: But again, I lay this again at Cobel's feet, who
Speaker 1: gave them absolutely no guidance on how to talk to
Speaker 1: any's twenty minute autie. Mark is in a severely emotional state,
Speaker 1: as you would expect obvious, and I don't think he's
Speaker 1: in any state to carry on a negotiation with Why
Speaker 1: did he have a script or something?
Speaker 2: And I feel like she could have written him a script.
Speaker 1: So the negotiation goes terribly, goes off the rails. Cobell
Speaker 1: is like, tap me in, I'll deal with it, which
Speaker 1: should have been the first thing. Cobel goes in and
Speaker 1: is like, here's what's going on. The MDR numbers are
Speaker 1: windows into Jemma's mind. You've been severing her lots of times,
Speaker 1: like each each time you finish a location that is
Speaker 1: a version of herself that you've created that's severed, and
Speaker 1: he's like, oh my god, I severed her twenty four times.
Speaker 1: He's like, yeah, that's fucking crazy. And then Cobel says
Speaker 1: gives him some like hard medicine and says, listen, forget
Speaker 1: the helly shit.
Speaker 2: She's an ain't gonna happen.
Speaker 1: It's never going to happen, which she's probably right, but
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is the correct tactic to
Speaker 1: take either. Definitely not, because any Mark fully rejects us
Speaker 1: and says, listen, I'm not talking anymore. The next thing
Speaker 1: I want to see is the Severn floor, and we
Speaker 1: cut immediately to the Severn floor and he's there. Anie
Speaker 1: Mark is staring at a brand new mural in the
Speaker 1: classic cure style, which I would describe as like nineteenth century,
Speaker 1: like Antebellum. It looks like something either that it like
Speaker 1: a style that you would do a mural of, like
Speaker 1: John Brown in or something in the Denver Airport. And
Speaker 1: it shows Mark compleating cold at his desk, completing Cold
Speaker 1: Harbor in front of like the waterfall by the orp Bow,
Speaker 1: and all the employees are there, and the board is
Speaker 1: standing at the top of the waterfall looking on and
Speaker 1: Helly comes out. They embrace. They go to MDR where
Speaker 1: they find like a animatronic jame Egan, like from the
Speaker 1: Hall of Presidents. Yes, and he's holding your card and
Speaker 1: they open the car and it's a card from Miltchik
Speaker 1: that announces, Hey, congratulations, party in your honor. As soon
Speaker 1: as you're done with Cold Harbor, Mark gets to work.
Speaker 1: He and Helly start talking about everything that's going on.
Speaker 1: Helly is like, oh my god, it was so weird,
Speaker 1: Like jame Egan was down here talking about what a
Speaker 1: special day it was and something's happening, and Mark's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know what it is because of this out of
Speaker 1: the cabin. Meanwhile, Miltchik goes to see Dylan because Audi
Speaker 1: Dylan is like, I'll let you quit, but like we
Speaker 1: need to have a talk first. So basically filled out
Speaker 1: a whole questionnaire that inny Dylan is going to have
Speaker 1: to deal with and read. So Miltchik presents him with
Speaker 1: it and basically it says like, Hey, I'm mad at
Speaker 1: you for fucking my wife, but also like I'm glad
Speaker 1: that this more confident and loving an empathic part of
Speaker 1: me exists, and so if you want to quit and
Speaker 1: your existence, that's fine with me. But like I'm also
Speaker 1: like down to keep going.
Speaker 2: With very emotionally mature response from aUI Dylan in a
Speaker 2: way that out Emarch and Inimac are struggling to be
Speaker 2: this episode, I loved this reveal for Dylan. I thought
Speaker 2: it was actually very kind and very in character, and
Speaker 2: I love the line where he's basically like, I hope
Speaker 2: that one day she sees me like how she saw you.
Speaker 2: I thought that was great, and then that obviously inspires
Speaker 2: Dylan to kind of go on the journey he goes
Speaker 2: on for the rest of this episode.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we go down to the test floor where Jemma
Speaker 1: is presented with her outfit for the day, and it's
Speaker 1: the outfit she was wearing when she last left the
Speaker 1: house and last saw Mark, and she was linking to
Speaker 1: this fake party that she was going to. You can
Speaker 1: tell that she recognizes it. Helly basically tells Mark at
Speaker 1: MDR that, oh, yeah, you should reintegrate. You should do
Speaker 1: that and then and then you should like be with
Speaker 1: your wife. And then he's like, what I want to
Speaker 1: be with you and Helly's like, you know, I am
Speaker 1: suggesting basically that the Helena version is not the true version.
Speaker 2: She's like, I am me Dad, Like I am I
Speaker 2: am her.
Speaker 1: And then they have this really cute talk about where
Speaker 1: they go if they could be together. They settled on
Speaker 1: the equator, which it's unclear if they.
Speaker 2: Know, I don't know what it is that like, is
Speaker 2: it a building, is it a continent? Is it a
Speaker 2: building so big you'd confuse it with a continent, Like
Speaker 2: it's very clear that they have no idea what's going
Speaker 2: on outside of living.
Speaker 1: Then there's this interesting moment where Helly and Mark both
Speaker 1: complete the file, like she shares it with him, like
Speaker 1: she puts his hand over his as he's moving the
Speaker 1: numbers around. Does this mean that she can also feel
Speaker 1: the emotions from the numbers or unclear, but Mark finishes
Speaker 1: with Helly's hand on his wonderful the Chicago Bulls theme
Speaker 1: plays and the animatronic Jam comes alive and introduces the
Speaker 1: floor manager, mister Milchick, and then they have like this
Speaker 1: kind of roast, this very corporate roast battle that you
Speaker 1: can tell is awkward emotionally because both Milchick and Jame
Speaker 1: animatronic Jame are taking it a a little too seriously,
Speaker 1: like they're really throwing haymakers at each other, and it
Speaker 1: and it culminates in Milchik basically calling here like a
Speaker 1: short bit. He's like, you about that, your animate your
Speaker 1: animatronic version is six inches taller than you, and so
Speaker 1: what about that, shorty. And then there's just like a
Speaker 1: very tepid applause, and.
Speaker 2: Then nobody's doing nobody's doing candlef that anymore. And also
Speaker 2: then Jaime calls him, He's like, okay, seth.
Speaker 1: At which point Milchick announces that it's time for some
Speaker 1: of the employees down here on the severed wing that
Speaker 1: we have never seen in the choreography and Merriment department
Speaker 1: to come in and celebrate Mark's achievement. And it's a marching,
Speaker 1: full marching band, which Miltchick then leads in marching band celebrations.
Speaker 1: As you know, Helena and Mark look on very very confused. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: down on the test floor, Gemma is taken a cold harbor,
Speaker 1: which is her having to disassemble the crib a crib
Speaker 1: and I guess feel like no grief or emotion at all.
Speaker 1: She's a complete new produce. She doesn't know who she
Speaker 1: is in there, She just knows she has to disassemble this.
Speaker 2: I want to say this is we were right for Jason,
Speaker 2: because you did basically call it early on that the
Speaker 2: that the concept of what Severance was doing was essentially
Speaker 2: like eternal sunshine of the spotless mind, Like they want
Speaker 2: to live a pain They want to create a world
Speaker 2: where life is painless, where you don't have to remember anything,
Speaker 2: and a big part like.
Speaker 1: So Jamee and the Cures can just have their pick
Speaker 1: of sexual assault victim.
Speaker 2: Basically, I'm assuming that the idea is like other rich
Speaker 2: people could sever their employees do whatever they want to them.
Speaker 2: And I mean, this is a question we'll talk about later,
Speaker 2: but I'm also interested, like do you have to have
Speaker 2: an emotional connection to the person us evering on that floor,
Speaker 2: Like that's why I want to know It's.
Speaker 1: Like, that's why the that's why the Helena handover Mark's
Speaker 1: hand thing is interesting to me. But I think that
Speaker 1: is the suggestion, right and which leads We'll have more
Speaker 1: conversation about this later, but I personally think that I
Speaker 1: don't I'm not sure that Dylan and Helly were doing anything.
Speaker 1: I think they were just there.
Speaker 2: Do you think they were just that as pop of
Speaker 2: Marks like.
Speaker 1: I think they were doing placebo stuff. Yeah, to keep
Speaker 1: Mark drilled down on this very important project, that's trust.
Speaker 1: So while Gemma is disassembling the crib, Jame is like
Speaker 1: in a little wink.
Speaker 2: Cloth so much. She's my I hate him so.
Speaker 1: Much watching her like on video link and very excited,
Speaker 1: and he's loving it.
Speaker 2: He thinks he's done it. It's happening.
Speaker 1: So while this is happening, we all so learn because uh,
Speaker 1: because a Drummond goes to meet with Lorne, they take
Speaker 1: a delivery of a goat, we learn that basically it
Speaker 1: seems like, rather than being repositories of a consciousness or
Speaker 1: you know, a kind of like brain USB drive, the goats,
Speaker 1: it seems, are really just a part of a religious ritual.
Speaker 1: And this particular goat that Lauren is bringing a meal
Speaker 1: is about to get sacrificed by Drummond and then apparently
Speaker 1: buried and probably cremated alongside Gemma's remains.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I so they suggest that seems like what's gonna happen.
Speaker 2: I also wonder if it's like a throwback to when
Speaker 2: they were originally doing animal testing, and they kill the
Speaker 2: animals at the end, So now they kill the humans
Speaker 2: at the end, which is what they meant about cold tap.
Speaker 2: Although I do I feel like, I don't know if
Speaker 2: Jane would really let them kill Gemma the way he
Speaker 2: feels about how I feel like he'd probably just want
Speaker 2: to keep us seven down there forever. I don't know
Speaker 2: if he's planning to give her all.
Speaker 1: Oh, I think maur certainly wants that, but I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it certainly seems like they were ready ing. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: Drummond was saying here like this goat will will be
Speaker 1: you know, buried with a what do you say? Valued woman? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: which was very like weird terminology. Lauren is very upset
Speaker 1: over how many goats she's having to give up, like
Speaker 1: all the time, so leading us to believe that this
Speaker 1: is a regular occurrence that's happening. Mark manages to slip
Speaker 1: away from the choreography and merriment party. Helly and Dylan
Speaker 1: keep Milchick locked in the bathroom with like a vending machine.
Speaker 1: I love that Dylan in both finales, his very very
Speaker 1: important role is basically like a body block.
Speaker 2: Milk Chick with yeah, I know, and then he gets that.
Speaker 2: But it's like big, like fuck you moment, which I
Speaker 2: think is a really big moment for Dylan, which I love.
Speaker 1: So Mark gets down to the test floor, he becomes
Speaker 1: Audi Mark. He and Drummond fight outside the Goat ritual room.
Speaker 1: Drummond is like gonna kill Martin. He's strangling in death
Speaker 1: when Louren comes out and puts the little air pistol
Speaker 1: to his head and his stun gun stun gun thing
Speaker 1: and basically takes him prisoner for Mark. Mark takes Drummond
Speaker 1: down in the testing elevator and he's like, listen, I'm
Speaker 1: about to become my Audi. So like when that happens,
Speaker 1: and as he's saying that, like the severance chip engages,
Speaker 1: he becomes Audie Mark and in the in the you know,
Speaker 1: in that moment of being between consciousnesses, he squeezes the
Speaker 1: trigger and shoots a Drummond in the neck and is
Speaker 1: now covered in Drummond's blood and is very confused about
Speaker 1: what you do.
Speaker 2: That's such a good scene because I kind of like
Speaker 2: it's so brutal and grotesque, and I've seen the the
Speaker 2: fandoms especially there's a great twilight account I follow. She's hilarious.
Speaker 2: She just wrote a book called Why We Love and
Speaker 2: Hate Twilight, and she was sharing some really good stuff
Speaker 2: about like how American Psycho coded this version of Marcus.
Speaker 2: When he's covered in all the blood, he's wearing the shirt,
Speaker 2: he's kind of running around these clean holes. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: a really great moment. I'm also fuck Drummond, so I'm
Speaker 2: happy that happened. Great, great news for me personally.
Speaker 1: Upstairs, Helly makes a big speech to the Marching band,
Speaker 1: saying essentially like, help us defeat Milchick because we know
Speaker 1: about the app Yeah we lost. You must have Yeah
Speaker 1: you must have lost people too, Like they just disappear
Speaker 1: and they don't tell you what happens, and like the
Speaker 1: audis want everything and we don't know anything. And the
Speaker 1: only way to like stop that from happening is we
Speaker 1: got to defeat this guy. Mark uses Drummond's blood to
Speaker 1: get into Cold Harbor, which is a very I didn't.
Speaker 1: I know, I'm dumb, but I didn't. I didn't realize
Speaker 1: that that would be the solution to the problem. And
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that was smart.
Speaker 2: I know. I was also like, if he doesn't need that,
Speaker 2: and then it's just any blood. Were talking about bad
Speaker 2: Blas again, guys, which by the way, is not rolled
Speaker 2: out this episode. I just need to say, though my
Speaker 2: personal theory is much smaller. I'll talk about it afta.
Speaker 1: He goes, he goes to Gema. Jemma of course does.
Speaker 2: Know who he is, but the rich doctor Maua loves.
Speaker 2: He's like so fucking happy watching it. He's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: she doesn't remember kill him, Like he's not bothered.
Speaker 1: There's something, whether it's I don't know what it is,
Speaker 1: but she She eventually goes with him, despite maurs please
Speaker 1: over the and when she gets outside of the room,
Speaker 1: she turns back into Gemma and we get the long
Speaker 1: awaited reunion.
Speaker 2: It's wonderful, man, the emotional face acting that these two
Speaker 2: do when they realize, like, oh it's so good and
Speaker 2: I was so happy and then I was so sad.
Speaker 1: So then Milchick escapes the bathroom, and this is the
Speaker 1: moment that Dylan and the Marching Band get to basically
Speaker 1: tell him to fuck off and they have a conflict,
Speaker 1: which I would imagine appears off screen. Then yeah, will
Speaker 1: open up on when we whenever season three.
Speaker 4: Because.
Speaker 2: I know mister milchick. He is obviously a conflicted character,
Speaker 2: but one of the best characters we've had on TV
Speaker 2: for a while, brilliant pformances. That man is a good dancer.
Speaker 2: I would love to see him wonderful fucking some people
Speaker 2: shut up in an action sequence. I believe he could
Speaker 2: do it, but I also will protect any Dylan with
Speaker 2: my life, so I don't want him to be hut
Speaker 2: in that process.
Speaker 1: Mark and Jemma run for the Ellen. They have to move,
Speaker 1: you know, they have to kick the body of Drumm
Speaker 1: and that out of the way as maur is chasing him.
Speaker 1: They get on. They go up. Gemma turns into miss Casey,
Speaker 1: Mark turns into any Mark, and Miss Casey's like, what's
Speaker 1: going on? Any Mark's like, we have to get to
Speaker 1: the surface. He takes her the stairs. She goes through,
Speaker 1: becomes Gemma again, is looking at her husband, who she
Speaker 1: does not know's severed but I guess might suspect, but
Speaker 1: still like, is like, what's.
Speaker 2: In this moment? Was just saved by him? So it's
Speaker 2: probably not. She's probably not like suddenly thinking like, well
Speaker 2: maybe he's saved severa do you know, Like she's this
Speaker 2: is a horrific ending. It fucking broke my heart, and
Speaker 2: I think it's so so well done.
Speaker 1: I think it's very earned, but very heartbreaking. Any Mark
Speaker 1: hesitates at the door because he suspects, and I think
Speaker 1: in fact knows that if he walks out that door,
Speaker 1: he's probably never He's dead, that's the end of him.
Speaker 1: And he turns and he sees Helly, who has been
Speaker 1: confers firmed through interviews with witht Lower that it's that
Speaker 1: this is Helly are not Helen.
Speaker 2: At least at least as much as we know, because
Speaker 2: you know what.
Speaker 1: There are theories, but I'm but I'm working.
Speaker 2: Under the I think he's saying the truth. She believes
Speaker 2: it's hell Yah.
Speaker 1: I think it's more emotionally satisfying and it makes more
Speaker 1: sense for me.
Speaker 2: Absolutely would suck if they pulled that rock.
Speaker 1: Out that it's Helly are so because it needs to
Speaker 1: be a choice. So Mark looks back, he sees her,
Speaker 1: and they lock eyes, and he decides, like, Okay, so
Speaker 1: here's here's the choice that any Markets left with death
Speaker 1: and the death of his friends, or run around with
Speaker 1: the woman I love in this maze for a few
Speaker 1: more hours minutes, And so they they lock Hands as
Speaker 1: mel Tourmas the Windmills of My Mind, the theme song
Speaker 1: to the original Uh Thomas Crown Affair A Wonder for
Speaker 1: a Heist movie plays and they go running and that's it.
Speaker 1: That's the end of So we got a free.
Speaker 2: We got it. In the background, you see like Gemma
Speaker 2: just screaming, Mark, Mark, we got to go back to
Speaker 2: our life. And it's this kind of horror movie through
Speaker 2: the glass pane in the door and the red lights
Speaker 2: are baby like. It's so so heartbreaking. And then there's
Speaker 2: a great interview I think it was with Indie Wire
Speaker 2: where they're asking about the freeze frame and Ben Stilla says, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's kind of this like combo.
Speaker 1: It feels very French.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah yeah. And also as well, he was like,
Speaker 2: it's kind of a combo of like that moment from
Speaker 2: the Graduate where you like then get that moment and
Speaker 2: you're kind of like, oh wait, but now I've done this,
Speaker 2: like that of my life look like. And then Invasion
Speaker 2: of the Body snatches, which is obviously like a huge seventies, huge,
Speaker 2: huge influence on this show. And and I think that
Speaker 2: that freeze frame is like so right, yeah, I mean yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm interested to hear Jason like, I guess we should
Speaker 2: probably go to a break.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's sever for a moment, and then when we
Speaker 1: come back, we will tap in super producer Joel.
Speaker 4: We'll talk about.
Speaker 1: Everything from season two. Yeah, and we're back, and we'd
Speaker 1: like to welcome super producer Joel to the conversation to discuss.
Speaker 2: Any Joel or out Joel.
Speaker 5: I want to say today's addy Joel as I'm in
Speaker 5: an entirely new city, uh only kind of working.
Speaker 2: So, how Joe, I did the finale work for you?
Speaker 2: Joe out?
Speaker 1: How'd you feel about it?
Speaker 5: Okay? I have very mixed feelings about the finale, so
Speaker 5: pacing wise, I think is my biggest issue. I feel
Speaker 5: like we kept coming back to military trying to break
Speaker 5: out of this room withouting my understanding of why he's
Speaker 5: so desperate to get out or even what it's like
Speaker 5: for him to face all of those people, And I
Speaker 5: thought this would be a free time without doing much work.
Speaker 5: I think they could have given him a lot more
Speaker 5: like he's the bolt out of the room choice I
Speaker 5: really feel with him as an actor, being like I
Speaker 5: have to give myself something to do.
Speaker 1: He had some wonderful like moments like that, like his
Speaker 1: entrance when Jame animatronic Jame introduces him and he comes
Speaker 1: into music, hard cuts, the running out of the room
Speaker 1: with Dylan, the dance obviously, and this kind of idea
Speaker 1: of both expressing his blackness in this corporate space and
Speaker 1: also the fact that this corporate structure is like, here's
Speaker 1: this little space where you can be black. Yes, there's all.
Speaker 2: These other black people to do it.
Speaker 1: I too was like, I mean, it's it's it's an
Speaker 1: episode that's seventy five minutes that kind of like not
Speaker 1: a lot happens because there's so much action in running around.
Speaker 1: But and I agree with you, it felt like, oh, look,
Speaker 1: Miltchik's still there, still donkey kicking the the defending machine.
Speaker 2: Looking through I would also say as well, like I
Speaker 2: think that where we leave this season, I would I think,
Speaker 2: you know what Mark Helly, I know what happened. They
Speaker 2: made a choice, So so like I would watch season
Speaker 2: three about Miltchik, like I want to know how he
Speaker 2: got down that. I think, I think there is space
Speaker 2: to expand the interior world of Severance because I agree,
Speaker 2: I thought for me, the emotional hit of the ending
Speaker 2: and how heartbreaking that was and how much it impacted
Speaker 2: me tells me that this is a really great, well
Speaker 2: done episode. Oh yeah, and I did get something from it.
Speaker 2: But I also do have certain like feelings about whether
Speaker 2: they the mystery of Cold Harbor. Did it take over
Speaker 2: like the show so much that it took away kind
Speaker 2: of the impact of what Cold Harbor is, or is
Speaker 2: it like telling us more about Lumen, which is kind
Speaker 2: of my theory which I came away from this episode with,
Speaker 2: especially the stuff with Milchik and the Jam animatronic and
Speaker 2: then also the way that people were like respond the
Speaker 2: Kere animatronic and then the way people like Jam were
Speaker 2: like responding when Cold Harbor didn't work. I was like, wait,
Speaker 2: this is not a historical moment, Like no one outside
Speaker 2: of this company cares. That is cult language about what
Speaker 2: they want this to be. And I think my biggest
Speaker 2: takeaway from this is like, actually, we don't really know
Speaker 2: much about how Severance is perceived outside. All we know
Speaker 2: is from other people who are connected to it, so
Speaker 2: all of that could be lies. And I think I'm
Speaker 2: now more of the belief that this is like a
Speaker 2: really small, interior rich people cult shit that they are
Speaker 2: doing that maybe doesn't actually have that much impact outside
Speaker 2: and is more this strange social ecosystem that they have
Speaker 2: created to exploit workers to you know, potentially maybe breakthrough
Speaker 2: with a new kind of painkiller idea and emotional painkiller.
Speaker 2: But I think my biggest takeaway was like I started
Speaker 2: to feel like, oh, I'm seeing the cracks in Lumen
Speaker 2: and this idea of them being some all powerful corporation
Speaker 2: and actually this is like a weird cult that a
Speaker 2: rich family runs out of like a fucking strip mare
Speaker 2: looking office. Like that's kind of and I was like,
Speaker 2: I was like, it's so bleak, but I think it
Speaker 2: makes more sense because like why would mark severing twenty
Speaker 2: five people be a historical moment for anyone outside of it?
Speaker 5: But okay, so, like I think historical has always meant
Speaker 5: for Lumen, and Lumen is good at creating lore for
Speaker 5: their company. It's like a key element of Lumen. And
Speaker 5: I think that's like that why is this oil painting?
Speaker 5: How long has this oil painting been done? When do
Speaker 5: they commission this? You know what I mean? Like this
Speaker 5: is a lore they've been setting up. I think that's
Speaker 5: why they do.
Speaker 2: They have painters on the Sabad floor, Like, are there
Speaker 2: any painting's face worked?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was.
Speaker 5: They were all like taking care of the paintings and stuff,
Speaker 5: and so I think there's yeah, And so I just
Speaker 5: think they're very good at crafting lore and that's what
Speaker 5: they were trying to do with Mark. I do still
Speaker 5: think they're a major corporation. I also do think they're cultish.
Speaker 5: I think to Jason's earlier point, this is the show
Speaker 5: about systems, which is why I think for me, a
Speaker 5: lot of this was pinging on like, oh, this is
Speaker 5: a commentary on slavery. I do think it's a little
Speaker 5: bit larger than just slavery, like you know what I mean.
Speaker 5: But it is about systems and how you conform and
Speaker 5: then how you survive within them. And with that in mind,
Speaker 5: I thought breaking open the system and the opening with
Speaker 5: the two Marks talking to each other on camera, that
Speaker 5: really really worked for me. And I think if you've
Speaker 5: been feeling lost about the personhood of Innis, you know,
Speaker 5: and if you've been feeling lost about like, well, how
Speaker 5: could this possibly end? Like this gives you some really
Speaker 5: sharp context to both how Audi Mark is conceding. He's like, oh,
Speaker 5: we'll just like be together, like we'll just share our body,
Speaker 5: which I think is a lot of people's like fast track.
Speaker 5: It's like, oh, well, if we're all equal, we just share,
Speaker 5: it'll be fine, Like don't worry any markets, Like yeah,
Speaker 5: there's a lot of stipulations that we can't be equal.
Speaker 5: We can never be equal. I don't have as long
Speaker 5: a life as you. I can't share your body and
Speaker 5: an outside I don't really know you're gonna have all
Speaker 5: of the advantages against me, And so for that, I
Speaker 5: think that's a really great way to like sort of
Speaker 5: leave us hanging and plug us back in. I didn't
Speaker 5: get all Irving, which is gonna make me incredible. I
Speaker 5: just can't how am I supposed to breathe or relax.
Speaker 1: He might be off the show. I mean I might
Speaker 1: be gone.
Speaker 2: It was giving me that it was in retrospect. It
Speaker 2: was giving me he's coming back for the.
Speaker 1: Sun said, leads me to believe that it's very possible
Speaker 1: he is not.
Speaker 5: I don't want to Irving. This is so devastating to me.
Speaker 5: I really hope that's not the case. I love John
Speaker 5: to touro, but also whatever he does an extra show
Speaker 5: will be great. But I think overall, to me, I
Speaker 5: think one of the big things I really wanted out
Speaker 5: of the show was that I wanted some answers. And
Speaker 5: then it's the end of season two, we know they're
Speaker 5: trying to go with another one. We needed the Lord
Speaker 5: to expand I got. Personally, I feel like I got that.
Speaker 5: I I feel like I understand Cold Harbor without having
Speaker 5: full knowledge of it, and to say that is like
Speaker 5: we we caught the Cold Harbor on the box, so
Speaker 5: we know this has been the plan for a very
Speaker 5: long time. And the shock I felt when they opened
Speaker 5: the room and it was just the crib, and then
Speaker 5: when they asked her to dismantle it, I literally started crying.
Speaker 5: I was like, this is so sad to remove from someone.
Speaker 5: As much as this memory is painful, it's also treasured
Speaker 5: and you start to be like and also for her
Speaker 5: to do the answer, I don't know who I am
Speaker 5: right and be treated so secondary and other. I was like,
Speaker 5: this is the horror that I think Mark is thinking
Speaker 5: every and he is experiencing. You're completely foreign to yourself,
Speaker 5: You're completely alienated, you are facing trauma you can't begin
Speaker 5: to understand. But that is clearly still so in the body,
Speaker 5: even if she's able to do the task. She's like,
Speaker 5: she feels like depressed, Like it's like half energy, it's low.
Speaker 5: It's not the Gemo we have fallen in love with.
Speaker 5: Over the course of like two hours, and then this ending, guys,
Speaker 5: oh my god, oh oh.
Speaker 2: I was dying like that ship brooke me.
Speaker 1: I thought it was perfectly, perfectly devastating and very early
Speaker 1: like I.
Speaker 2: Never got Honestly, I never got on a season three.
Speaker 2: It would have been fine.
Speaker 1: I thought it would have been. I thought it's a
Speaker 1: great place to end it if there was no season three.
Speaker 1: And I also thought, obviously I want Audi, Mark and
Speaker 1: and Gemma to be together. But I also felt like
Speaker 1: it would not make sense for any Mark to go
Speaker 1: out that door and agree agree like, because essentially they
Speaker 1: were asking him go die and all your friends die.
Speaker 2: And his interactions did not without a Mark would not
Speaker 2: have convinced me to go out there either. So I
Speaker 2: think they did a great job where it's like any
Speaker 2: Mark does not have to sacrifice himself or be some
Speaker 2: hero for some version of himself and some person he
Speaker 2: doesn't know. And I also thought it was interesting that,
Speaker 2: like in an interview with Rolling Stone, that Jemma's incredible
Speaker 2: actress Deacon Lockman. She kind of says that she actually
Speaker 2: feels like the whole point of Cold Harbor is this
Speaker 2: idea of like taking that painful memory and like testing
Speaker 2: if the severance barrier holds. But then she also kind
Speaker 2: of connects it to like she feels like they were
Speaker 2: Cobell was sort of doing that to Mark in the
Speaker 2: wellness center, and how like the candle from the basement
Speaker 2: that Miss Casey likes, she's constantly like testing to see
Speaker 2: the box barrier is holding, and underneath their kind of
Speaker 2: testing to see if Jemma's barrier is holding when they
Speaker 2: expose her to things from her outy self. So she
Speaker 2: feels like Cold Harbor is definitively like attempting to remove
Speaker 2: human's pain and grief kind of entirely. And I thought
Speaker 2: that was such a great insight and that kind of
Speaker 2: duality of like what Marquess has actually been through, even
Speaker 2: if we didn't realize we weren't seeing it that way,
Speaker 2: in the same way we see it on the testing floor.
Speaker 2: I thought that was like a really great callback.
Speaker 1: What so, Joe, what did you think of the ending?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 1: How did it your thoughts?
Speaker 5: I think one thing we know about Mark from the
Speaker 5: very beginning is like he views his teammates as family.
Speaker 5: And so if we know that about Anie Mark, there
Speaker 5: was never any other way for it to end.
Speaker 2: There was no Yeah, even if it wasn't a romance,
Speaker 2: You're right, he would have always gone back.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think it's like, so it's but it's
Speaker 5: also hard because we also know, like what it's done
Speaker 5: really well, if they set up everybody's ultimate stakes so perfectly,
Speaker 5: Like we know that Mark's only thing is he's just
Speaker 5: wanted to not feel the pain of Gemma, and so
Speaker 5: to get close to her and to know that all
Speaker 5: you have to do is stif through that fucking doors,
Speaker 5: we could have his wife back and they just found
Speaker 5: each other. And we know Jemma's biggest fear is that
Speaker 5: Mark has moved on. It's just the one the faith
Speaker 5: that she's been able to hold onto downstairs.
Speaker 1: I don't believe, and she doesn't know, he said.
Speaker 2: Exactly. In hindsight, I think she will know. I think
Speaker 2: she will like sit when she is, she'll call Devon.
Speaker 2: But also I think as well, like once you're out
Speaker 2: of the chaotic horror of that literal like horror movie situation.
Speaker 2: I think it would come to you quite quickly like, oh,
Speaker 2: he's probably severed. But in that moment, all she sees
Speaker 2: is him leaving with fucking Helena eating just moments after
Speaker 2: they have, you know, had that connection and that kiss
Speaker 2: and that like we're going to get out of here.
Speaker 2: And also it's so horrific, because isn't that everyone's dream
Speaker 2: who is trapped in a horrific situation, is that somebody
Speaker 2: who loves you would come and save you, even if
Speaker 2: she hasn't been able to think that because she is
Speaker 2: constantly severed. She got to experience that for like one second,
Speaker 2: and then they turn it on its head and do
Speaker 2: something that makes absolute emotional sense for any Mark. But
Speaker 2: that is I thought it was just such a shocking
Speaker 2: and emotionally like true and horrifying ending.
Speaker 1: Joelle, I must ask you what is so personally? I
Speaker 1: feel like the you know, the negotiating between the negotiation
Speaker 1: between Audie Mark and any Mark and his allies went terribly.
Speaker 1: I Devin bungled it almost from the first and Mark
Speaker 1: continued bungling it all the way down them Devin saying like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, this will and lumin the wrong thing to
Speaker 1: say I but I also feel like there's a world
Speaker 1: in which Cobell, who works with severed people, who created
Speaker 1: the process and has worked with countless severed people, should
Speaker 1: have like talked them through his conversation before, Like he
Speaker 1: she should have been like, you gotta lie to these motherfuckers.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I put the morality aside.
Speaker 5: Lie to your inny.
Speaker 1: Tell him that reintegration will create another person and he'll
Speaker 1: be his own person. He's gonna get to be with
Speaker 1: Helly forever like that, and that's how it's gonna work.
Speaker 1: Do not tell him the fucking truth, and that's.
Speaker 2: How much we're gonna end your life.
Speaker 1: Basically, try to do not try to do not try
Speaker 1: to connect with him on an emotional level. Do not
Speaker 1: try to connect with his life. He's gonna see that
Speaker 1: as inauthentic. You need to fucking lie to him right
Speaker 1: now because now is not in this five minute conversation
Speaker 1: is not the time to like, uh create this bond
Speaker 1: that should have existed between you two. That's how I feel.
Speaker 1: That said, how would you have approached a negotiation between
Speaker 1: your Audie cell in it with a with a goal
Speaker 1: of saving someone dear to use life?
Speaker 5: Okay, so to thinks first, I would say, you'll have
Speaker 5: a lot more faith in harmony than I. That woman
Speaker 5: does not know how to talk to people. That's not
Speaker 5: a skill she was gifted with. She could have changed
Speaker 5: anyone to talk to she doesn't know. Probably is really
Speaker 5: she only has their shared experience and too harmony. Asking
Speaker 5: them to leave is sus as hell? Why if you're
Speaker 5: anti Luhmann, I can't understand why these two people who
Speaker 5: are helping you can't stay, Like why Devin can't stick
Speaker 5: around and hear this.
Speaker 2: Truth that seems suspicious.
Speaker 1: I think my sense is just the feeling like that
Speaker 1: he's being ganged up on, which I kind of get
Speaker 1: because he's feeling like I never have the full picture.
Speaker 1: And yeah, and there's shadowy people that I can't perceive
Speaker 1: that are always like manipulating me, and I don't know
Speaker 1: what they're intentions.
Speaker 5: Audi March I think it was the belly of the
Speaker 5: beast without all of the information, and he could have
Speaker 5: easily had that information and if she had decided to
Speaker 5: tell them another time. So I'm really sess of harmony
Speaker 5: right now. I still am not quite sure what her is.
Speaker 5: But for me, oh man, I'm different than Mark. I
Speaker 5: think because one, I think I could be very real
Speaker 5: about like, hey, man, like the person you're in love
Speaker 5: with inside, Uh, she's like untouchable. I'm outside like we're
Speaker 5: really at an impas here. I doubt they're going to
Speaker 5: keep sending her down there anyway. It sounds like this
Speaker 5: was a temp thing, projects finished and wrapped. So I'm
Speaker 5: not trying.
Speaker 1: Say already you're already You're like, no, no, no, I'm not.
Speaker 5: I'm trying to tell you if you want your out,
Speaker 5: here's okay. Here's the deal I make. If you want Helly,
Speaker 5: I would have gotten her name right. If you want Helly, yes, definitely,
Speaker 5: then here's what we'll do. We have to get out
Speaker 5: so we can go back in. And by this I
Speaker 5: mean if you can bring Gemma out, if we can
Speaker 5: merge into one.
Speaker 2: Person, bring HELLI and I'll either bring.
Speaker 5: Helly out with you or if she doesn't come with you,
Speaker 5: I will storm. Gemma's gonna be mad. We should have
Speaker 5: enough evidence to go after Lum and I will go
Speaker 5: back and I will get you over. Oh gee, Helly
Speaker 5: like this lady knows how to sever people. Sure she
Speaker 5: could just tap into your brainch of or she created it,
Speaker 5: but we got the whole ken here. We just need
Speaker 5: a plan. If you will be patient with us and
Speaker 5: work with us, you know we've got you. And if
Speaker 5: you okay, how do I get Because I think the
Speaker 5: thing that would have really helped any Mark is a
Speaker 5: guarantee of some kind that we're not going to delete you. Yes,
Speaker 5: And so I think you would need to take something
Speaker 5: or someone you can't take harmony. Could you get Devin
Speaker 5: in there on like the side staircase and be like, listen,
Speaker 5: this is like this my most treasured person. I would
Speaker 5: take my brother, this is the person I love most.
Speaker 2: In the world.
Speaker 1: Probably couldn't even get her on the ground. It's a challenge.
Speaker 5: It's just a matter of face, you know what. Okay,
Speaker 5: So second approach, Second approach, I'm just gonna listen to you.
Speaker 5: I'm gonna play the listening card. I would say, you
Speaker 5: tell me your needs. I'm not gonna try.
Speaker 2: To see you.
Speaker 5: Let's take some time to hear what your needs are,
Speaker 5: what you would like to see, how you'd like this
Speaker 5: operation to go, give you a lot.
Speaker 1: Of That's the way I would go. And then with
Speaker 1: that information of what might what any Mark wants, I
Speaker 1: would then set about lying to him about that he's
Speaker 1: gonna be a lie and kill his I don't think,
Speaker 1: I truly don't think there's any way to get Audie
Speaker 1: Mark out and Gemma out without telling him everything he
Speaker 1: needs to hear that you're going to be a full person,
Speaker 1: that reintegration is not going to erase you, that you're
Speaker 1: gonna be with Helly. Are those things true or even achievable? Fuck?
Speaker 1: No they are not. But none of those But without
Speaker 1: those things you're not getting out period.
Speaker 2: The thing that makes me laugh as well is like
Speaker 2: they didn't know about the stack case, So I'm like,
Speaker 2: why don't.
Speaker 1: You just around him and just fucking Jason told him.
Speaker 2: I might just say just be like, hey man, you
Speaker 2: know what that staircase when you step through it become any,
Speaker 2: You become your any of the outside. It's like the
Speaker 2: OTC again, it's.
Speaker 1: Like switch the process, so like you're actually gonna be
Speaker 1: yourself because they.
Speaker 2: Knew he had to go through that door. I feel
Speaker 2: like they could have lied Tim better about the door
Speaker 2: and like being some kind of thing, But the truth
Speaker 2: is none of that would have helped because they're both
Speaker 2: in such an emotionally chaotic.
Speaker 1: And like this is why it's so fascinating that exactly
Speaker 1: because you because the idea doesn't really like come into
Speaker 1: it in the way that they are living.
Speaker 2: Through it, but it's very easy.
Speaker 1: And also like bomb chair any First of all, this
Speaker 1: process should never exist, yes, like if if it's other
Speaker 1: technologically feasible, it should never do it. Because of this,
Speaker 1: scientists don't do it. The I like, the conversation around
Speaker 1: are any people is so multifaceted that I can't it
Speaker 1: just thinking about it here in this space as an
Speaker 1: audience member, Like in that world, it must have been
Speaker 1: very very very toward like the debate around it, because
Speaker 1: like is it okay? So if I, like, let's say
Speaker 1: I get concussed and I don't quite remember everything about
Speaker 1: my life in that moment when I'm concussed, am I
Speaker 1: a different guy? And so should I then not treat
Speaker 1: the concussion to become myself again? Because like, is that
Speaker 1: is that oppressing this other concusted personal There's so many cats.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was thinking about the autonomy the whole time,
Speaker 5: like this is my body guy's earlier point, like I
Speaker 5: created this person if on the lines of like I'm
Speaker 5: an individual who believes in abortion, rights is this is
Speaker 5: this the thing of like, hey listen, I I don't
Speaker 5: want to do this anymore. I have a right to
Speaker 5: live every day to bullet, I have a right to say.
Speaker 1: I know this right and it's my body.
Speaker 5: I think what Dylan has done, like the audi Dylan
Speaker 5: has fully seen And this is the other thing I
Speaker 5: was sort of pinging against for the whole you so far,
Speaker 5: It's like there's a level of like self respect conversation
Speaker 5: that's happening too, Like this is still you like and
Speaker 5: that's the yeah. And I was really thinking about Helly
Speaker 5: today too. So Helena. Helena refers to innis as animals
Speaker 5: at one point.
Speaker 2: And they talk about them being leashed and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: There's the world.
Speaker 5: Sort of racism and othering and all of that. But
Speaker 5: if you consider her behavior and her father's behavior and
Speaker 5: how similar they are to innis, they like like as
Speaker 5: when they're first severed, they're emotionless. They're trying their hard
Speaker 5: is not they're not EMOTIONALSS. They're trying to suppress their emotions.
Speaker 5: They're trying not to feel anything in their natural day
Speaker 5: to day lives. Every time we see Helena, we see
Speaker 5: her a lot alone. She does that cool thing in
Speaker 5: the bathroom, Like she's constantly alone, and even if she's.
Speaker 2: With people, you're trying to a like feeling.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And so I find it really intriguing that this
Speaker 5: thing that they have such hate and detest for it
Speaker 5: and think of as lower, that they're mirroring, and which
Speaker 5: loves me right back into this idea of self hate.
Speaker 5: Like it's just it's so.
Speaker 1: Even even even as like, oh, I don't.
Speaker 5: Like my daughter, but in you, in you, I see
Speaker 5: the daughter you wanted. But you think like that is
Speaker 5: just so.
Speaker 2: Crazy.
Speaker 1: As much as this is.
Speaker 5: About it's I also really think it's about like the
Speaker 5: corruption of hate and the way that that whether it's
Speaker 5: self hate, whether it's hate of a situation, whether it's
Speaker 5: hate of other people, like the way that keeps looping
Speaker 5: and permeating throughout is so fascinating for a mystery box
Speaker 5: show to end it season two here, I think it's
Speaker 5: just I really like the choices they made. They don't
Speaker 5: give you enough answers. That's fine, you don't want all
Speaker 5: the answers anyway, you think you do, you feel like
Speaker 5: you do, You don't you want to have everybody.
Speaker 1: I a little further, I don't even say. I think
Speaker 1: that a lot of the things that we're expecting answers
Speaker 1: on are kind of they're empty boxes. They're they're not
Speaker 1: like actually like the goats, for instance, we thought there
Speaker 1: was going to be this whole other thing. It's really
Speaker 1: just like a ritual probably rooted in the roots of
Speaker 1: the company and the family.
Speaker 2: In the century fish.
Speaker 1: Yeah, as many people in our discord have called them
Speaker 1: a cult, which I think is essentially true. And I
Speaker 1: think a lot of the stuff is you know, I
Speaker 1: think about the weir having been a part of like
Speaker 1: various startups. There's these weird like cultural handoffs that happen
Speaker 1: where it's like you have like these four people that
Speaker 1: started a company and like they had like this lingo
Speaker 1: where they would call like let's say, they like would
Speaker 1: all have coffee together and like when they were starting
Speaker 1: a company and talk about like issues in the company,
Speaker 1: and they called it like Java time. And so when
Speaker 1: as the company expands, they create, Hey, something we do
Speaker 1: here is called Java time, and and like and the
Speaker 1: weirdness of that when you try to level it up
Speaker 1: to other people who weren't people. And I think a
Speaker 1: lot of the weirdness that we see in the company,
Speaker 1: where it's the animatronic Jame or the weird Lingo or
Speaker 1: the fucking weird foods and the pineapples. Is just that
Speaker 1: it's stuff that had meaning earlier to a smaller group
Speaker 1: of people that then they decided, oh well, workers are
Speaker 1: like family question Mark air quotes, right, and therefore as
Speaker 1: part of this family, they're going to take part in
Speaker 1: this culture, and they've lost touch with whatever that originally meant.
Speaker 1: So now it's just weird stuff. So I think a
Speaker 1: lot of the things that happen in the show is
Speaker 1: kind of purposefully inscrutable, weird stuff that meant something earlier
Speaker 1: that doesn't.
Speaker 5: Mean anything anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so going into season we know season three
Speaker 2: got announced, great news for us. This was one of
Speaker 2: the biggest questions in the discord. I know first off,
Speaker 2: A specifically was like, hey, where do we go? Like
Speaker 2: what is season three? What is left to go? Like, so,
Speaker 2: what are you guys before we end? Like what are
Speaker 2: you guys biggest season three feelings? Is it gonna go?
Speaker 2: And tell? Bring up being back? Joel said, bring him back?
Speaker 5: I think for season three I need I would very
Speaker 5: much like to get I started talked about this last week,
Speaker 5: we're constant seeing these movements of like liberation or or
Speaker 5: at least rebellion. I want to see like and we've
Speaker 5: seen the departments slowly grow closer together. I want to
Speaker 5: see a unified rebellion of the innies. I want I
Speaker 5: want a little drummer boy from the marching band, like Oh,
Speaker 5: I want like playing raids on the upstairs. I want
Speaker 5: chip like manipulation from the doc because like the nurse
Speaker 5: seems to be, Like the nurse is just chaotic. I
Speaker 5: really wouldn't need more of her.
Speaker 2: I just it's spell is so good. Also, I would
Speaker 2: say I like that idea, Joel. I was some think
Speaker 2: that's truth us. But I made a good point, which
Speaker 2: was kind of like you can only have like an
Speaker 2: inny sit in for a few days, Like there's only
Speaker 2: they're only gonna let that happen. What I would love
Speaker 2: to see is kind of your classic I think now,
Speaker 2: like you said, I feel like the outer world. I
Speaker 2: do stand with the idea that I think lumin actually
Speaker 2: has less impact than we maybe thought on the outer world.
Speaker 2: But I think the interior world of lumin, of the building,
Speaker 2: of the corridors, of the rooms of the floors of
Speaker 2: the departments is huge and we still haven't explored it.
Speaker 2: I would love to see a rebellion that kind of
Speaker 2: takes your classic like martial arts movie rules from Bruce
Speaker 2: Lee to movies like The Raid. I would love to
Speaker 2: see them kind of fight their way up Yah law
Speaker 2: By or whatever the rebellion is. So then we get
Speaker 2: to see all these different spaces. We maybe get to
Speaker 2: learn a bit more about the law. Maybe we don't.
Speaker 2: And I'm yeah, I'm very interested because I feel like
Speaker 2: Helly and Mark s have actually I feel like they
Speaker 2: just have like a really this is a good ending
Speaker 2: for them, honestly. Like so I'm more interested now in
Speaker 2: the rest of the people in the Sabbath floor I
Speaker 2: want to know about. I mean choreography and merriment that
Speaker 2: to me is like sucks.
Speaker 1: Were all the people of color that were Yeah.
Speaker 2: Exactly, and not just that, but imagine that you take
Speaker 2: something that is for people a liberatory thing, playing music
Speaker 2: that has a cultural resonance, but then you trap someone
Speaker 2: in having to do that twenty four hours a day
Speaker 2: and losing any kind of connection to what it means
Speaker 2: outside of your life. I think that is like has
Speaker 2: so much potential to explore some of the themes they
Speaker 2: learn on the outside.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing. Were they able to filter that
Speaker 1: thing exactly.
Speaker 2: Like I think's and I think that the kind of
Speaker 2: notion of a rebellion or uprising that fights its way
Speaker 2: through the different spaces in Lumen and in this building
Speaker 2: is really interesting. Also, I love a big swing, So
Speaker 2: I'm like, if they want to white lotus this shit
Speaker 2: and suddenly there's we're in with miss Wag and we're
Speaker 2: in a different like country and maybe you know our
Speaker 2: beloved and complex Seth Miltchik, maybe he is your kind
Speaker 2: of Natasha Rothwell or Jennifer Coolidge who maybe gets to
Speaker 2: travel between these worlds. I think they could do anything,
Speaker 2: because I do think generally they have managed to make
Speaker 2: an emotionally satisfying ending that would just be talked about
Speaker 2: for you know, I think a lot about Watchmen, like
Speaker 2: letting the season of Watchmen finish after one season has
Speaker 2: done so much for keeping it in the public consciousness,
Speaker 2: keeping the conversations around it going. And I think that
Speaker 2: there's a version where finishing this story about this group
Speaker 2: of severed people is It wouldn't be a terrible thing,
Speaker 2: but I would love to see Gemma, you know, I
Speaker 2: think I think if we another obvious route that I
Speaker 2: think is more likely than the one I just set
Speaker 2: forth is like you put Gemma in the leading role
Speaker 2: and it's about her trying to go and get Mark back.
Speaker 2: I think that's a great inversion, and probably.
Speaker 1: The police say that Season three, sadly is going to
Speaker 1: have to be the one where we finally deal with
Speaker 1: that question, which is why don't you just call the
Speaker 1: fucking police.
Speaker 2: That is actually I think adds to my notion of
Speaker 2: like Lumin doesn't have that much impact, but a rich
Speaker 2: family that basically owns like a small town or.
Speaker 1: See the news, you call the police.
Speaker 2: That's what we need to know.
Speaker 1: They I mean, with Jemma out now, you can't actually
Speaker 1: put a lit.
Speaker 5: Scientology.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes, I know. My worst I think
Speaker 2: my worst version would be like you know, we've all
Speaker 2: talked about Devon as an op and actually but she
Speaker 2: could also just be dumb. But like my worst version
Speaker 2: would be like a shock you know, season opener, where
Speaker 2: like Jemma gets out of Lumin and just gets like
Speaker 2: shot in the head by Devin or something. So they're like, well,
Speaker 2: now it's not out so we can keep it a secret,
Speaker 2: like I need Gemma to have if she if we're
Speaker 2: following the same characters next season, I need Jemma to
Speaker 2: be a lead, and I need to know more about her.
Speaker 2: I want to know about her perception of her relationship
Speaker 2: with Mark. I want to know. I want to have
Speaker 2: the chance to see that. And they love an inversion
Speaker 2: in this show. Like the beginning of the season, Mark's
Speaker 2: running around, you know, inside the corridors. At the end
Speaker 2: we have him running away. I think that there's a
Speaker 2: chance that we get to switch to Jemma's perspective. But Jason,
Speaker 2: you're right, like they got to call someone. They got
Speaker 2: to call like Dateline or some shit, Like somebody has
Speaker 2: got to investigate this.
Speaker 1: Uh, It'll be interesting to see how it evolves from there,
Speaker 1: because you got to figure the story about Lumen has
Speaker 1: got to blow up from here. I do agree that
Speaker 1: I think the any revolution continues, but how much further
Speaker 1: can it go if the government or somebody pulls the
Speaker 1: plug on it. I think any Mark and Helly's run
Speaker 1: through the maze, I would imagine it's going to be
Speaker 1: a lot of Season three, And I think that as
Speaker 1: hinted at by Jame. I think we're going to see
Speaker 1: the thing where Jame is like, you know what flip
Speaker 1: helly are and my daughter. I want my daughter to
Speaker 1: be Helly R. And I want so like, let's flip
Speaker 1: her and have her be the pro consciousness because that's
Speaker 1: so hard but makes.
Speaker 2: So much sense because its very much analogous to the
Speaker 2: kind of way that women were, you know, in prison
Speaker 2: for having babies outside of wedlock or because they their
Speaker 2: husbands were abusive and they didn't like it like that.
Speaker 2: I think there's like a lot of interesting historical kind
Speaker 2: of analogies.
Speaker 1: I think that there, And to put even like a
Speaker 1: sharper point on it, I think that there's something really
Speaker 1: ominous about a guy who is attracted is maybe the
Speaker 1: wrong word, but like intrigued by someone who resists him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, and tell that is.
Speaker 1: The thing that he Oh, I see hearing you when
Speaker 1: you object violently to what I want. I think that's
Speaker 1: he is an armist character. So I think, like, you know,
Speaker 1: bringing him more into the story I think is probably
Speaker 1: necessary for a season three, Like let's really he probably
Speaker 1: wants to get our real he's our villain off the
Speaker 1: cold failed to.
Speaker 2: I think so. I think it's easy.
Speaker 1: I also liked a lot of our people. A lot
Speaker 1: of the folks in our discord were like, I like
Speaker 1: the fact that James just kind of a fucking idiot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just like he's just like a NEPO son who didn't
Speaker 1: create anything at all. His dad, his grandfather created the company,
Speaker 1: his underling that he was managing, created the groundbreaking technology
Speaker 1: that the company is now known for, and he's just
Speaker 1: there doing weird shit in the backfucking corners of the
Speaker 1: fucking company. I can't wait for seasons. It's very very excited.
Speaker 1: What an incredible season this has been and really fun
Speaker 1: to talk about.
Speaker 2: Definitely. I also want to ask Ben Stilla, if you're listening, Ben,
Speaker 2: I know you definitely are, like how much did how
Speaker 2: much did you enjoy the Jordan Peele movie Us? Because
Speaker 2: when I was rewatching, I was thinking about how so
Speaker 2: much of this is like the tevit and the rights
Speaker 2: of the tenet and having to live on the ground,
Speaker 2: and I'm just like, I would love to know if
Speaker 2: that was like an influence on this, because I especially
Speaker 2: think once we start to think about switching people out,
Speaker 2: it very much reflects that I thinks Run comp two.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, that makes so much.
Speaker 5: I mean, the film history all over this show is
Speaker 5: I mean, it was just really it's light to kind
Speaker 5: of dive in and make all of these pair.
Speaker 2: So yeah, let's come back and the lead up to
Speaker 2: season three, let's dig into some of those and just
Speaker 2: kind of talk about movies to watch if you love severance.
Speaker 1: In the next few episodes of X ray Vision, we're
Speaker 1: diving into Darted, Evil Born Again one O five and
Speaker 1: one O six, and next week we talk about the
Speaker 1: news coming out of Nintendo Direct. That's it for this episode.
Speaker 2: Next for listening. Bye.
Speaker 1: X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Sepsion and Rosie
Speaker 1: Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcast.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kortman.
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Abu Safar.
Speaker 2: Our producers are Common Laurent, Dean Jonathan and Bay Wack.
Speaker 1: Our theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
Speaker 1: songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman, and
Speaker 2: Heidi our discord moderator.