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Speaker 2: John Middlikoff, former NFL scout, you know him, you love
Speaker 2: him the podcast three and out, loves his golf as well.
Speaker 2: As we get ready for the Masters that's around the corner.
Speaker 2: But we've got some NFL stuff to talk about. So
Speaker 2: we got into this discussion on the show today and
Speaker 2: I said you know, obviously, when the NFL had to
Speaker 2: write almost a you know, a billion dollar check for CTE,
Speaker 2: the game got safer really fast. And you can't touch quarterbacks.
Speaker 2: You already can't go high or at the wrong angle
Speaker 2: on anybody but a running back going forward. That's why
Speaker 2: it's really makes sense to have two and three running
Speaker 2: backs in the rotation, because it's the last position you
Speaker 2: can really clobber from any angle at any time. And
Speaker 2: I said, because it's become such an offensive league, there's
Speaker 2: only one way to win with exceptional offensive quarterback play.
Speaker 2: And I said, here's the thing about Shnur Sanders. If
Speaker 2: you're Cleveland, if you draft him, he is at best
Speaker 2: the third best quarterback in that division. He'll never be
Speaker 2: as good as Burrow. He's not that kind of prospect.
Speaker 2: And he's not Lamar Jackson. If the Steelers hit on
Speaker 2: a quarterback in the next two years, he could be four.
Speaker 2: He's not an exceptional athlete, not an exceptional arm and if,
Speaker 2: for instance, the Giants wanted him, he's not going to
Speaker 2: be Jayden Daniels and he's not special athletically like Jalen Hurts.
Speaker 2: He may be better than Dak, but again, he would
Speaker 2: be third best quarterback in a division. And so my
Speaker 2: takeaway and Shaudeur Sanders is do teams think like that?
Speaker 2: It only takes one coach to love bow Nicks, right
Speaker 2: like Sean Payton loved him because there's a little bit
Speaker 2: of a doppelganger with Drew Brees. But when I look
Speaker 2: at Shaduur and I like him, I can't argue that
Speaker 2: Burrow Lamar Chaduur is three. I can't argue that Jalen
Speaker 2: and Jaden Daniels Shaduur is three. And those kind of
Speaker 2: quarterbacks are infrequent playoff quarterbacks.
Speaker 1: Do scouts think like that? Yeah? I mean these conversations
Speaker 1: definitely come up, not only right now but throughout the
Speaker 1: fall when your scouts are going in the problem with
Speaker 1: that mindset, you would never draft a quarterback because who
Speaker 1: the hell is ever going to be better than Lamar
Speaker 1: Jackson or Joe Burrow? Right or you know you're never
Speaker 1: gonna how are you ever gonna find like a twenty
Speaker 1: three year old Matt Stafford. More than likely you're not
Speaker 1: gonna draft this high again. And you know two names
Speaker 1: that I hear come up a lot or definitely one,
Speaker 1: and I'll use another name is Andy Dalton, and I
Speaker 1: would throw Derek Carr in there as well. You know,
Speaker 1: I think people that say you know that Kype skill set,
Speaker 1: historically Shador Sanders, those guys went picked thirty five and
Speaker 1: picked thirty six, I think ten years ago. He's going
Speaker 1: in the second round and people are very excited about him.
Speaker 1: Jimmy Garofflow as well. At the end of the second round.
Speaker 1: Andy Dalton has made one hundred and sixty eight starts
Speaker 1: in the NFL, and he was in a division with
Speaker 1: a fantastic Ravens defense and Roethlisberger in his prime and
Speaker 1: they were going to the playoffs all the time. Carr
Speaker 1: took a dysfunctional Raider team twice to the playoffs. So
Speaker 1: if Shador is in that mold, it's really on the organization.
Speaker 1: And if you're the Browns, Andrew Berry's pretty good GM,
Speaker 1: Stefanski's pretty good coach. They got a lot of talent
Speaker 1: on the team. So if he can just become that
Speaker 1: Andy Dalton, Jimmy Garoppolo, Derek Carr, Yeah, you're not gonna
Speaker 1: beat you know, if Lamar Jackson or Joe Burrow are on,
Speaker 1: they're gonna beat you. But you still have a lot
Speaker 1: of other games throughout the season. So it's if you
Speaker 1: can build the team well enough, can't you compete to
Speaker 1: make the playoffs. I mean, they're drafting two over a
Speaker 1: hole right now, right And granted that's because I mean
Speaker 1: Deshaun became one of the worst quarterbacks we've ever seen.
Speaker 1: Their team just fell apart this year. But more than
Speaker 1: likely they're not gonna draft this high again. Now. Is
Speaker 1: it an quote unquote overdraft. Yeah, but the reason Mac
Speaker 1: Jones and Daniel Jones and those type guys became disastrous.
Speaker 1: You couldn't even function with them as your starting quarterback, right,
Speaker 1: Andy Dalton. For seven straight years with the Bengals, they
Speaker 1: did a good job. You could just every year you
Speaker 1: went in like, we're gonna win ten plus games. The
Speaker 1: Browns would die to do that. Their owner, who can
Speaker 1: be a little off the sometimes I give him credit
Speaker 1: for making the comment the other day. You never hear that,
Speaker 1: you know, admitting we still all the guy ninety million dollars.
Speaker 1: It's a disaster. It's like, well, yeah, that's true. Well yeah,
Speaker 1: they never say that he is spending a lot of cash,
Speaker 1: like the salary caps different than cash being spent Jeffrey
Speaker 1: Lury talked about that. I saw today they are spending more.
Speaker 1: I think they've spent more money over the last four
Speaker 1: years in cash than any other team in the league.
Speaker 1: It's like well over a billion dollars. So he is
Speaker 1: not in this to lose. But the betting markets have
Speaker 1: Abdul Carter as the heavy favorite to be the number
Speaker 1: two overall pick, so maybe they're thinking shad or Sanders.
Speaker 1: What the hell's the difference of Shador Sanders. I know,
Speaker 1: you like like Riley Leonard's of the world and those
Speaker 1: type guys. We can get a guy like that in
Speaker 1: the second or third round, and maybe he can be
Speaker 1: like our cousins or Dak. They also talk and think
Speaker 1: like that, so maybe they go, I'd rather have Riley
Speaker 1: Leonard or Kyle McCord and Abdul Carter than Shador Sanders
Speaker 1: and whoever else we would get in the second round.
Speaker 1: So I think you're doing a lot of those conversations.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of people saying that Jackson Dart has
Speaker 2: a better arm than Shaduur Sanders, so you might as
Speaker 2: well just wait and draft Jackson Dart, although I would
Speaker 2: say he's not nearly as accurate as Shaudur Sanders. An
Speaker 2: accuracy to me is like a real thing, maybe the
Speaker 2: most important thing. Jalen Milrose mechanical. I think he has
Speaker 2: to fold the right hands or he could just be
Speaker 2: Anthony Richards at two point zero.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, I've said Kyle McCord at Syracuse. I take
Speaker 2: him in the second round and feel pretty good. I
Speaker 2: will say this though, that you know, people say it's
Speaker 2: not a very good draft, and I'll tell you I
Speaker 2: look at certain teams that need skill players, like the
Speaker 2: New York Giants. If they got Travis Hunter with their
Speaker 2: first pick and then their second pick got is it
Speaker 2: Trayvon Henderson from Ohio State, Yeah, with Molik Neighbors. I
Speaker 2: look at that and I think to myself, Oh, that's
Speaker 2: a great draft for the New York Giants because I
Speaker 2: like their head coach as an offensive coach, and I
Speaker 2: think Russell will actually be a better version of the
Speaker 2: Pittsburgh Russell because I think Mike Tomlins culture is years
Speaker 2: behind Brian Dable offensively. Is there a team in this
Speaker 2: draft that you look at and think, you know, it's
Speaker 2: not a great draft, but what they need running back,
Speaker 2: tight end, defensive tackle, there's a surplus of in this draft.
Speaker 1: Well, I think if you look at the Giants, if
Speaker 1: you're Brian day Ball, people go, why would they sign
Speaker 1: both those two guys? Because Brian da Ball's coaching for
Speaker 1: his job, Shador Sanders does not help him at all
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five. So he can take two quarterbacks,
Speaker 1: let the cream rise out of the two and go
Speaker 1: back and forth. He would go all in on Travis Hunter.
Speaker 1: He would want players that help him win immediately. So
Speaker 1: if you tell me they get Travis Hunter and they're
Speaker 1: starting running back or starting tight end or just another
Speaker 1: more explosive player, yeah, I mean I think the Giants
Speaker 1: are just much more feasible. You watch him at the
Speaker 1: end of the year last year when they had some injuries.
Speaker 1: It's like that this team has a lot of parallels
Speaker 1: with the Patriots, right, just no talent. What's going on here?
Speaker 1: But all of a sudden you get Molik Neighbors, which
Speaker 1: he has concussion issues. You know, you get another concussion.
Speaker 1: That's a little scary, But there is no disputing his
Speaker 1: physical gifts. I mean, he's a freak. I mean that's
Speaker 1: one you look back and this is the hard part
Speaker 1: about the draft. There is no such thing as a
Speaker 1: high floor because any player might not work out. It
Speaker 1: doesn't matter how your floor is determined once you get
Speaker 1: in the NFL. All I heard last year was like,
Speaker 1: Marvin Harrison's floor is so Highlik's Malik could be boom
Speaker 1: or bust. And then you watch You're like, you don't
Speaker 1: think the Arizona Cardinals regret not going Maleak Neighbors over
Speaker 1: Marvin Harrison Junior, because they do and the Giants benefited
Speaker 1: from them making that choice. And I think we use
Speaker 1: that term a lot. Ceilings are real, like certain guys
Speaker 1: have higher ceilings. Cam Ward's ceiling is obviously higher than
Speaker 1: Shad or Sanders, but a floor like we've seen all
Speaker 1: sorts of players not work out in the end, you
Speaker 1: never know, and we always played game a couple of
Speaker 1: years later. Should have taken him? Should have taken him?
Speaker 1: No one knew that information as we sit here a
Speaker 1: month away from the draft. If we would have known
Speaker 1: Richard Sherman and George Kittle and these guys exist in
Speaker 1: the fifth round, they would have been top twenty picks.
Speaker 1: So it is a little bit of a crapshooting. I
Speaker 1: think it gets more difficult in a class like this,
Speaker 1: which obviously there are gonna be a lot of really
Speaker 1: good players that come out of this draft, but no
Speaker 1: one feels that confident on a lot of these guys.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, well, how high is Mason Graham's ceiling?
Speaker 1: Or it's like what's his name? The LSU tackle, It's like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: arm length kind of matters at left tackle, but what
Speaker 1: if in five years he just becomes an All Pro guard?
Speaker 1: But you don't take an all Pro guard probably at
Speaker 1: five overall, right, you'd rather have a tackle. So there's
Speaker 1: just a lot of unknown which I think a lot
Speaker 1: of these the scouting community is just there's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's kind of a coin flip year.
Speaker 2: In your years of being a scout. I mean, you
Speaker 2: have your top one hundred and FIFTFTY players like and
Speaker 2: you also have the red players that you won't draft
Speaker 2: either personnel, personality problems, character issues or injuries. Are there
Speaker 2: any dramatic moves with two to three weeks to go
Speaker 2: in the draft process when in your experience, yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Would say you know the information most of these teams,
Speaker 1: you know, with the owners meeting, so all the gms
Speaker 1: and coaches are flying home if not last night today,
Speaker 1: and by either the end of the week or first
Speaker 1: thing next week, all your scouts come in and the
Speaker 1: scouts and your you know, your personnel people, some of
Speaker 1: your other executives have been on campuses over the last month,
Speaker 1: right meeting with coaches other personnel at those schools. Certain
Speaker 1: guys you don't have to worry about anything off the field,
Speaker 1: like they're just it's just perfect, you know Andrew lux Or,
Speaker 1: But there are a ton of those guys in the
Speaker 1: draft where it's like you don't even But there are
Speaker 1: some guys maybe not legalot like they've been arrested or
Speaker 1: you know, crazy bad things, but they're just like how
Speaker 1: much does he really like football? Which might be a
Speaker 1: non negotiable in the organize, like the Ravens don't draft
Speaker 1: many people that aren't addicted to football watch them play
Speaker 1: over the last twenty years. So you're just like, maybe
Speaker 1: you've heard some stuff and you bring that information back
Speaker 1: to your GM, to your head coach, and that can
Speaker 1: sway stuff. So it's not like a dramatic unless someone
Speaker 1: gets in trouble and that becomes public knowledge. But it's
Speaker 1: basic things like yeah, I've heard some things that this
Speaker 1: guy might not be quite what we thought as a person.
Speaker 1: Cause I think when you know a lot of these people,
Speaker 1: when you talk to coaches and executives, most people fail,
Speaker 1: especially draft in the first couple of rounds, like they're
Speaker 1: meeting a lot of the requirements of height, weight, speed,
Speaker 1: played it sweet schools. It's usually the person that fails focus,
Speaker 1: screw around, not dialed in, doesn't really like football. Football
Speaker 1: is not like baseball where you just get to play
Speaker 1: every day, or basketball where you play three times a week.
Speaker 1: You practice basically five days a week and you play
Speaker 1: once and you only hit seventeen of those games. For
Speaker 1: the majority of the league. You don't go to the player,
Speaker 1: and then you get OTAs you get training camp, it's
Speaker 1: a lot of sitting in a room watching tape, getting
Speaker 1: yelled at, getting up early, going to you know, going
Speaker 1: to bed sore. It's not you know, Ray Lewis, you
Speaker 1: pay me Monday through Saturday. Sundays are for free. There's
Speaker 1: a lot to that. It's why the best players typically
Speaker 1: are football addicts at all the positions, right the JJ Watts,
Speaker 1: the Trent Williams that you just go around, George Kittle,
Speaker 1: you know, at every Travis Kelcey forever. All the patriotype guys,
Speaker 1: the human being, but you got to be careful with
Speaker 1: overvaluing that because you do need to be able to play.
Speaker 1: And that's I think Belichick got in trouble at the
Speaker 1: end of his career. So it's it's hard. I mean,
Speaker 1: you run a company hiring people. You've had a lot
Speaker 1: of people on your show for years before even the volume.
Speaker 1: It's you're dealing with human beings with a lot of pressure,
Speaker 1: with a very public job. It's we all shit on
Speaker 1: it when guys miss, and it's fair sometimes, but it's
Speaker 1: also like, this is really really difficult to, you know,
Speaker 1: pick a guy. I hear this a lot. Why can't
Speaker 1: the Chiefs find a tackle? Well, it's like, guys, they've
Speaker 1: draft thirty one or thirty second every single year. They
Speaker 1: don't have that much cap space. And I don't know
Speaker 1: if you've checked free agency. Usually Hall of Fame tackles
Speaker 1: don't hit free agency. It's like, what do you want
Speaker 1: them to do? Like Lane Johnson isn't usually sitting there
Speaker 1: at pick thirty two, And when you're drafting at pick
Speaker 1: thirty two, you're also drafting at the end of the
Speaker 1: second round. And the third round. It's it's much easier
Speaker 1: to draft when you're the Titans and you dictate every
Speaker 1: round than it is when you're the Bills or the
Speaker 1: Ravens or the Chiefs.
Speaker 2: So the you know the overs and unders are coming out,
Speaker 2: So I want us to give the audience have some fun. Here.
Speaker 2: Two overs and two unders and all start this. All
Speaker 2: the odds are provided by Draft King Sportsbook. So I'm
Speaker 2: going to give you an under, then you give me
Speaker 2: an under, and I'll give you another under, and then
Speaker 2: we'll do two fa overs. So my first under is
Speaker 2: the Chiefs at eleven and a half. Okay, Joe Tooney
Speaker 2: was by far and away the most had the most
Speaker 2: dexterity of any of their offensive linemen.
Speaker 1: He's gone.
Speaker 2: They are now crossing their fingers on a backup left
Speaker 2: tackle from San Francisco. They were eleven and zero in
Speaker 2: one possession games, right and now the division is much better.
Speaker 2: The coaching and the quarterback play Bo Nixon year two
Speaker 2: Gino Smith if they get a running back in the
Speaker 2: first round. Geno Smith has a one zero six passer
Speaker 2: rating in Seattle on play action passing like if you
Speaker 2: give him a run game Gino's very good on third
Speaker 2: and two, right, He's very good with play action passing,
Speaker 2: second to five, third and two, third and three. So
Speaker 2: I don't think I would take the under. Now, maybe
Speaker 2: they just go eleven and six, but I think the
Speaker 2: division is going to be improved, the quarterback play between
Speaker 2: Gino second year bo Again. I thought last year there
Speaker 2: were offensive line injuries with the Chargers. My guess is
Speaker 2: they'll be healthier. Okay, what say you give me an
Speaker 2: give me an under?
Speaker 1: Do you say ten and a half on that number?
Speaker 2: It's eleven and a half. DraftKings has the Chiefs at
Speaker 2: eleven and a half. I would bet the.
Speaker 1: Under got you. They've won over twelve games. I think
Speaker 1: every year Mahomes has started beside one. Yeah, but I
Speaker 1: hear you. It's you can have a good year. I
Speaker 1: mean they won a super Bowl winning eleven I would
Speaker 1: say an under. I like I do think the forty
Speaker 1: nine ers who are to the Rams won that division
Speaker 1: and were really good and honestly, I mean a couple
Speaker 1: of plays away from potentially beating the Eagles, and who knows,
Speaker 1: they might end up in the super Bowl and win it.
Speaker 1: They wanted a ten and seven, right, so, and they're
Speaker 1: a team going through a lot of transition. So the
Speaker 1: forty nine ers won six games, though they were in
Speaker 1: a lot of them. They kind of melted at the
Speaker 1: end in a lot of them. So I actually think
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are gonna think they're
Speaker 1: gonna win like six or seven games. I think they're
Speaker 1: gonna be better than people think. But once you start
Speaker 1: getting over ten, like ten and a half, like you
Speaker 1: could win nine or ten games, be that seven seed, hell,
Speaker 1: compete to win the division and have a good season.
Speaker 1: So I think the days, you know, definitely this season
Speaker 1: that's gonna be very dependent on young rookie players.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they have twelve draft picks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's we've seen the Rams the last
Speaker 1: couple of years. I don't know exactly, they've been a
Speaker 1: fantastic team at the end of the year, that they're
Speaker 1: not winning twelve games. So I think the Niners probably
Speaker 1: more likely to win nine or ten games. I don't
Speaker 1: think that division is just gonna be you know, the
Speaker 1: Cardinals are just a tough game every time you play them. Obviously,
Speaker 1: the Rams are good in Seattle going through a little
Speaker 1: bit of a transitional period, but they're head coach. I
Speaker 1: think they're pretty well run operation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, listen, they're one of my unders too at ten
Speaker 2: and a half Seattle. Yeah, they tried to get green
Speaker 2: Law back from Denver. They did not want to lose Ufunga. Okay,
Speaker 2: those were two big defensive losses. And let's be honest, John,
Speaker 2: the Bosa's get hurt when Boso was off the field.
Speaker 2: Last year, they were not a very good defense. They
Speaker 2: were really inconsistent. So now Whufungus gone, green Law's gone,
Speaker 2: Bosa will miss the stretch and it's not a great draft.
Speaker 2: So I don't think there's an impact player defensively. Maybe
Speaker 2: if they got like Will Johnson at corner from Michigan,
Speaker 2: I think that would be a really really you'd have
Speaker 2: to be happy with that. But yeah, I think I
Speaker 2: have San Francisco as an under. So I have Kansas City,
Speaker 2: you have San Francisco, I have San Francisco. Give me
Speaker 2: another under.
Speaker 1: I would say, I think there's a chance Miami is
Speaker 1: like the one of the worst teams in the NFL. Like,
Speaker 1: it would not shock me if you tell me. As
Speaker 1: you and I are sitting here doing a pre draft
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks Miami's in the mix. Maybe they
Speaker 1: don't have the number one overall pick, but I could
Speaker 1: see him being like the giants of the Patriots draft
Speaker 1: in three or four. It would not shock me to
Speaker 1: see them struggle to win four or five games. I
Speaker 1: think they're gonna be terrible. I thought that last year,
Speaker 1: and they just obviously when two was on the field,
Speaker 1: they're more functional. It would not surprise me at all
Speaker 1: if this Tyreek situation doesn't go away and he ends
Speaker 1: up playing for another team this year. I don't know
Speaker 1: if that trade would happen during the draft. I know
Speaker 1: they've pushed back against that, maybe at the end of
Speaker 1: training camp. But I just expect Miami to implode. I
Speaker 1: really do. I mean, I don't really like the Jets
Speaker 1: that much either, but like even last year, the Jets
Speaker 1: do have a lot of good players. Oh absolutely. I
Speaker 1: just don't think Miami has that many good players, and
Speaker 1: they are one concussion away from all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: Zach Wilson's are starting quarterback.
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, I'll give you an over. I think Brian
Speaker 2: Callahan's a good coach. I think Will Levis is a
Speaker 2: really really bad NFL quarterback. I don't think he was
Speaker 2: a great college quarterback. And so I look at the
Speaker 2: over under on Tennessee and you know it's it's five
Speaker 2: and a half. Some have had it at six and
Speaker 2: a half. I think they clear that bar easily. First
Speaker 2: of all, cam Ward's a playmaker, and nobody's got real
Speaker 2: film on him. He didn't do a lot of straight
Speaker 2: pocket stuff in college. It was a lot of backyard stuff.
Speaker 2: And I think the league will take a while. And
Speaker 2: they did this with Jaden Daniels. It took a while
Speaker 2: to decode him. People were bo Nicks. You'd not quite
Speaker 2: sure what he is. It's a weak division. The Jags
Speaker 2: could be bad, the Colts would be bad. Houston should
Speaker 2: be pretty good, but not great. I think I'm going
Speaker 2: to take the Titans over. I think it's a pretty
Speaker 2: week schedule. I think cam Ward is one of the
Speaker 2: only players in the draft that can equal wins. I
Speaker 2: think people think Callahan's a pretty good coach, and Ellahan
Speaker 2: didn't just lack trust in will Levis. If you listened
Speaker 2: to his postgame comments after losses, he lost them three
Speaker 2: games straight out, and you watched his body language, he
Speaker 2: almost resented that will Levis was getting in the way
Speaker 2: of wins, and so I Titans to me earn over.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think people. You know, we talk a
Speaker 1: lot about the Browns because of Watson, because Deshaun Watson's
Speaker 1: quarterback play. By the month then no one was watching
Speaker 1: the Titans. Their quarterback play was like historically poor, I
Speaker 1: mean the turnovers and sacks he was taking. It was.
Speaker 1: Their defense was actually pretty good, yes, And like any
Speaker 1: team with a pretty good defense, when your offense is
Speaker 1: that crappy by the time you get to like mid November,
Speaker 1: they can't maintain that level of play because they're on
Speaker 1: the field so much. So if their offense is just solid,
Speaker 1: I'm with you. I mean, he's got his dad there
Speaker 1: coaching offensive line. Massive upgrade just based on talent alone.
Speaker 1: I would say this, if you look at Vrabel, like
Speaker 1: the linebacker version of Harbaugh, you know, wants to play defense,
Speaker 1: wants to run the ball. Former players, just guys that
Speaker 1: just win. I think the Patriots we're right up there
Speaker 1: with the Bears as one of the worst coach teams
Speaker 1: you will ever see. Yes, last season, why couldn't they
Speaker 1: go nine to eight this year? So go, the Jets
Speaker 1: are going to be awful. I think the Dolphins are
Speaker 1: going to be worse. Yep, listen to Bills, who cares
Speaker 1: even if they sweep you. I could see the Patriots
Speaker 1: winning eight or nine games.
Speaker 2: Listen, they were seven and a half DraftKings. They are
Speaker 2: now up to eight and a half. So the Sharks,
Speaker 2: it looks like we're all over the Patriots. So New
Speaker 2: England was one of my overs. And I said the
Speaker 2: other day on the air, I said, I think Vrabel
Speaker 2: from Giad Mayo is worth three points. I think Drake
Speaker 2: May is worth another point based on sophomore season. And
Speaker 2: I think it's reasonable assume one hundred and ninety million
Speaker 2: in free agency and eight to nine draft picks is
Speaker 2: worth one and a half to two points. So if
Speaker 2: they're just five and a half points to six points better.
Speaker 2: And again you're talking about between the draft and free agency,
Speaker 2: like eight to nine new starters and a couple of
Speaker 2: high end starters. You're talking about Drake May potentially with
Speaker 2: a Travis Hunter. You're talking about the worst coach team
Speaker 2: to probably one of the seven to eight to nine
Speaker 2: best coach teams. That's five and a half to six points.
Speaker 2: They were three and six in one possession games with
Speaker 2: a rookie quarterback. If that's just six and three, you
Speaker 2: don't have to go nine to zero. This is an
Speaker 2: eight to nine win team. And again the Jets a
Speaker 2: bit lost. I agree with you, Miami's a mess. So
Speaker 2: I think New England's in play.
Speaker 1: I would say the other team would be speaking of Harbaugh,
Speaker 1: the Chargers. You know, last year, I just didn't pull
Speaker 1: the trigger and he did exactly what he Yes, they
Speaker 1: were the five seed. Well this year it's nine and
Speaker 1: a half, and everyone always gets off the scent with them.
Speaker 1: During like free agency, Jim is not going to trade
Speaker 1: for DK Metcalf and give one hundred fifty million dollars.
Speaker 1: He didn't do it last year, He's not going to
Speaker 1: do it this year. He won't do it next year.
Speaker 1: You know what he will do though, in like the
Speaker 1: second round, all of a sudden, he will draft his
Speaker 1: starting tight end for the next seven years and in
Speaker 1: the third round find a defensive tackle that everyone's going, hey,
Speaker 1: this guy's not that sexy who will just be a
Speaker 1: starter for him for a long time. Then you watch
Speaker 1: the season and you just go, God, their team is
Speaker 1: just physical and good. He has a really talented quarterback.
Speaker 1: Why couldn't they win twelve games. I mean they're over
Speaker 1: under right now is nine and a half. I think
Speaker 1: they are a lock. I mean, Jim Harbaugh is now
Speaker 1: coach in the NFL five years and made the playoffs
Speaker 1: and four of them. So I don't know if they
Speaker 1: can overtake the Chiefs, but it wouldn't shock me if
Speaker 1: it gets a little closer. And don't let free agency
Speaker 1: fool you. He's never gonna play and swimming that into
Speaker 1: the pool. They are never gonna do that. But you know,
Speaker 1: you've talked about this huge advantage for Jim. All these
Speaker 1: kids coming in the draft. He's recruited them all, especially
Speaker 1: the good ones, so he's gonna know these guys. He's
Speaker 1: gonna be a huge point of difference for him. I
Speaker 1: would expect them to have a good draft. His GM
Speaker 1: I think is pretty good. I mean, look at last year,
Speaker 1: It's like, did they pass on Malik Davers? I don't know.
Speaker 1: They just got their starting tackle for the next decade.
Speaker 1: So I think the Chargers they've fooled me is the
Speaker 1: wrong word. I just didn't have the kahonas just because
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know if their roster is
Speaker 1: quite good. Enough, they're not gonna have great ride receivers.
Speaker 1: He typically never does, and he always wins. He won
Speaker 1: a national championship, he went to a Super Bowl like
Speaker 1: he's not exactly gonna have Jerry Rice in his prime,
Speaker 1: and it's gonna work out just fine.
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Speaker 3: slash audio.
Speaker 1: Well, you're going to hear.
Speaker 2: Him more regularly now over the next seven weeks, Jason Timp,
Speaker 2: host of Hoops Tonight. You know that there was a
Speaker 2: comment I thought was interesting. Lebron was on a podcast
Speaker 2: or a show and he talked about, you know, Jannis
Speaker 2: would have scored two hundred and fifty points back in
Speaker 2: the seventies, And I laughed because I thought no, because
Speaker 2: they'd fould him and he can't hit free throws, so
Speaker 2: it wouldn't work. But You know, it's interesting because I
Speaker 2: grew up with the seventies basketball and I loved it,
Speaker 2: and I do think sometimes, you know, the players since
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy three have grown half an inch. The
Speaker 2: NBA was big and athletic then. Now nutrition's better, travels better,
Speaker 2: But it was I didn't love Lebron saying that I
Speaker 2: was like Lebron. Wilt and Jerry West played in the seventies,
Speaker 2: Doctor j played in the seventies. Bill Walton played in
Speaker 2: the seventies. I don't know why it didn't bother me,
Speaker 2: but it was one of those I heard it and
Speaker 2: I thought, no, honest, now, you honest man have averaged
Speaker 2: forty but he can't shoot like he can't shoot. What
Speaker 2: did you make of that comment and your thoughts about
Speaker 2: jenneral comparisons.
Speaker 4: Well, for that exact reason, like you mentioned the size,
Speaker 4: if it was not just size back then, spacing was
Speaker 4: poor back then. Yeah, and in general, like Giannis would
Speaker 4: have been running into a lot of bodies. That said,
Speaker 4: I firmly believe Janness would average forty forty five if
Speaker 4: you played in that era, just simply because it would
Speaker 4: be like a man amongst boys in terms of the
Speaker 4: athletes that he'd be competing with. I just a couple things.
Speaker 4: I don't see any point in comparing era to era
Speaker 4: in general. I mean, like we talked about the seventies
Speaker 4: like it was not that long ago as fifty years ago.
Speaker 4: It's a half century ago. And in general, there's just
Speaker 4: been so many changes schematically, there's been so many changes
Speaker 4: in player development and the skill. Like you know, what's
Speaker 4: always so funny to me when you go back and
Speaker 4: you watch basketball players in the sixties and seventies, the
Speaker 4: jump shots.
Speaker 1: Are all weird looking.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And one of the reasons why the jump shots
Speaker 4: are all weird looking is they didn't get to go
Speaker 4: on YouTube or go turn on the TV and watch
Speaker 4: their favorite players play when they were kids. They taught
Speaker 4: themselves out of shoot. Everyone today kind of shoots more
Speaker 4: or less the same type of jump shot, and some
Speaker 4: people look weird, but most people should.
Speaker 2: Swings, by the way, the unique golf swing is over.
Speaker 4: Exactly because now it's been optimized. We've optimized it. Now
Speaker 4: you reach your hand in to the cookie jar, you
Speaker 4: start from the legs, You no wasted motion, and we
Speaker 4: don't want to hit you in the shot, you know,
Speaker 4: And so It's one of those things where like we've
Speaker 4: just perfected this sport in so many different ways, and
Speaker 4: you know, one of the things that I dislike about it.
Speaker 4: And it kind of goes back to what we talked
Speaker 4: about when we were talking about Stephen A. Smith a
Speaker 4: couple of weeks ago. But when you I don't believe
Speaker 4: in stooping down to that level you, by the way,
Speaker 4: are you have a saying that you've used over the
Speaker 4: years that I've loved. You said, I can have an opinion,
Speaker 4: and you can have an opinion on my opinion. I
Speaker 4: don't need to have an opinion on your opinion of
Speaker 4: my opinion, which, by the way, is like a foundational
Speaker 4: thing that I lean on and I'm when I'm doing
Speaker 4: what I do too. And like one of the big
Speaker 4: things that I look at there is like, Okay, Lebron,
Speaker 4: you're playing basketball. Okay, these old guys are trashing your era.
Speaker 4: But what good does it do to then step in
Speaker 4: and then be disrespectful to their era? That doesn't serve
Speaker 4: a purpose. In my opinion, it kind of is it's
Speaker 4: stooping to that level. It doesn't forward the conversation. And like,
Speaker 4: from that same point, I feel like Lebron is just
Speaker 4: shouldn't be the guy sending that type of message that
Speaker 4: he's trying to send. That said, like, I think in general,
Speaker 4: Lebron's just sick and tired of getting criticized by like
Speaker 4: the Mjklan, the throwback like the old league was better
Speaker 4: type of plan, and I think he's just sick of it,
Speaker 4: and I think he's acting out.
Speaker 2: You know, It's interesting. The other day I was saying
Speaker 2: about Okay, see, I'm like, I know they're gonna win
Speaker 2: into some series.
Speaker 1: I know they're really good.
Speaker 2: I'm not doubting that brilliant GM. I don't think SGA
Speaker 2: will quite get that whistle in the postseason, but he'll
Speaker 2: get a whistle if chet Holnggrun's healthy. They've got some
Speaker 2: offensive options. I do worry about their young players in
Speaker 2: big road games. You know, everything changes. No sport in
Speaker 2: our country changes more from regular season to postseason. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm watching here today. You got to fight in the
Speaker 2: NBA Missesota's coaches, and you're getting feisty now in playoff seating,
Speaker 2: and it's like it changes the game. It's an outside
Speaker 2: of the COVID year men win in the playoffs. Young
Speaker 2: men can do really well in the regular season. But
Speaker 2: the one thing about Oklahoma City Tom Tolbert texted me
Speaker 2: when I was talking about him, He goes, they lead
Speaker 2: the NBA and assists, or they lead the NBA in
Speaker 2: creating turnovers but have the fewest turnovers. They just are really,
Speaker 2: really efficient. They don't turn it over and they force turnovers.
Speaker 2: Is there like, I don't think Golden State could beat
Speaker 2: okay See. I think Golden State would be Houston. I
Speaker 2: don't do Houston shooting's better today than three months ago.
Speaker 2: I still don't trust them in a big playoff spot.
Speaker 2: Oklahoma City to me is they're like Cleveland the last
Speaker 2: couple years. They're gonna win playoff series. They're just too good.
Speaker 2: They got too many good players, too good of a coach.
Speaker 2: Go deep dive on Oklahoma City. And because I look
Speaker 2: at them and I think they have two or three
Speaker 2: things that really matter. They're well coached, A dominant score
Speaker 2: so they know laden games in a playoff game, here's
Speaker 2: where the ball goes. That is so important. The great
Speaker 2: teams all have that. Denver had it with Jokic, and generally,
Speaker 2: like the Spurs, you'll have a second guy in Tony Parker.
Speaker 2: If Duncan gets doubled, it's great to have too. And
Speaker 2: if Holme Groun's healthy, I trust him at a big
Speaker 2: spot hitting a shot. He's a great player. So they
Speaker 2: have an identifiable star and a co star. They're well coached,
Speaker 2: they play real defense. They're not they're young, but they're
Speaker 2: not inexperienced, like these guys have played in big colleges,
Speaker 2: big big moments. I think they're a Western Conference finals team.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: I mean, I would take the Lakers over them, and
Speaker 2: I don't feel like I'm being a homer. I would
Speaker 2: just take Lebron and Luca and the possessions and a
Speaker 2: half and a game. What do you think their journey
Speaker 2: looks like in the postseason.
Speaker 4: So their defense, I'm one hundred percent sold on will
Speaker 4: perform really well. The only team that I'm worried about
Speaker 4: them defensively against is the Lakers because Lebron and Luca
Speaker 4: attacking their smaller perimeter players. The Oklahoma City's defense is
Speaker 4: nearly perfectly constructed. They're incredibly fast on the perimeter, and
Speaker 4: Mark Dagenol has built their scheme towards ford aggression and
Speaker 4: passing lanes to try to build to force turnovers. It's
Speaker 4: optimized towards the type of personnel they have. They also
Speaker 4: have rim protection in chet Holmgren, which is a very
Speaker 4: important part of success in the playoffs. And then they
Speaker 4: have a couple of different types of defenders that are
Speaker 4: especially valuable. So, for instance, Lou Dort is one of
Speaker 4: the very best guys in the league that you can
Speaker 4: throw against a big star forward, and like, there's just
Speaker 4: so many of them in the Western Conference, whether it's
Speaker 4: Luca and Lebron, or it's literally Kawhi Leonard, or it's
Speaker 4: Kevin Durant or whoever it is your planing, there's all
Speaker 4: these star forwards. He's a great option. Isaiah Hartenstein kind
Speaker 4: of come to the surface as like a guy they
Speaker 4: use for the big power players, and he's had a
Speaker 4: lot of.
Speaker 2: Sis him defensively, no question.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: His ability to defend in a bunch of different types
Speaker 4: of coverages, but specifically to handle the big, strong, bullyball
Speaker 4: types of players has been a huge asset to that
Speaker 4: Thunder defense. The only weakness I see in the Thunder
Speaker 4: defense is size as an aggregate thing, particularly on the perimeter,
Speaker 4: and it manifests in bad defensive rebounding, which has been
Speaker 4: a consistent thing they've struggled with over the years. And
Speaker 4: then that's where I can see some vulnerability where it's like, Okay,
Speaker 4: you put lou dord on Luca Great, who's guarding Lebron.
Speaker 4: There's just nobody else on the roster that can make
Speaker 4: Lebron feel really all that uncomfortable. So I think that's
Speaker 4: what we're saying. The offensive end is where I see
Speaker 4: some cracks in the armor, in the sense that they
Speaker 4: thrive in transition off the strength of their defense. But
Speaker 4: what happens if there's a team that takes really good
Speaker 4: care of the basketball and controls pace and keeps okay,
Speaker 4: see trapped in the half court and it's a big,
Speaker 4: high leverage playoff series where you need j Dubb and
Speaker 4: Chet and dort In these guys to be effective offensively.
Speaker 4: And again, I want to be clear, I'm not trying
Speaker 4: to nitpick here, because we are. I should be clear
Speaker 4: we are nitpicking here because this is the one seed
Speaker 4: in the Western Conference. As I agree with you, I
Speaker 4: would be stunned if they didn't make it to the
Speaker 4: conference finals. But in the conference finals context, if they
Speaker 4: faced a Denver or a Lakers. I think it's at
Speaker 4: least worth mentioning that those teams would be dramatically more
Speaker 4: experienced and dramatically bigger on the perimeter. Yeah, one last
Speaker 4: thing I'll say about it. They do rely heavily on
Speaker 4: Shay Gilders Alexander pull up shooting when things go south
Speaker 4: for them offensively in those situations. I like a team
Speaker 4: of a bunch of six' eight sixty nine guys that
Speaker 4: have long arms to, contest and that's something WHERE i
Speaker 4: could see that being a valuable of. Value SO i
Speaker 4: think they deserve to be the. Favorite but, Yeah i'm
Speaker 4: with you to where like IF i saw The lakers
Speaker 4: in The thunder about to play in A Western conference,
Speaker 4: finals it'd be really hard for me to not pick.
Speaker 2: AWAY i Think Adam silver is a good. COMMISSIONER i
Speaker 2: thought WHEN i had him, ON i thought he overreacted
Speaker 2: a little To Kevin durant to The. Warriors and my take, is,
Speaker 2: Well otani came to The. Dodgers it's been great For,
Speaker 2: otani great for The, dodgers great For, fox great for.
Speaker 2: Baseball people like, trades people like stars and big. Brands, Harbottom, michigan.
Speaker 1: There was no.
Speaker 2: Downside, yeah, Yeah michigan was gonna throttle people and you'd
Speaker 2: have more blowouts than The big. Ten so what and
Speaker 2: so they overreacted and they you, know they've now created
Speaker 2: this environment, where you, know eight. Rooms it's. Hard it's,
Speaker 2: like you can't you'll never duplicate unless you hit on
Speaker 2: every draft pick for four, years you'll never duplicate The
Speaker 2: celtics roster, like it's just you. Can't you can't have
Speaker 2: eight good. Players it doesn't work that. Way and my
Speaker 2: take is people like. Trades they don't mind. Dynasties And
Speaker 2: Kevin durant was bound to not get along With Draymond.
Speaker 2: Green so it wasn't going to be an eight year.
Speaker 2: Run it was three. Years they wore each other, out
Speaker 2: it Was shaq And. Kobe it was bound not to work.
Speaker 1: Forever But.
Speaker 2: I've talked about this, before is that there are certain unsolvable.
Speaker 2: Things you can go to a. THERAPIST i can go
Speaker 2: to a. Therapist there's a basic foundational PERSONALITY i have
Speaker 2: based on my childhood that you're not going to. CHANGE
Speaker 2: i can get, better BUT i am WHAT i. Am and,
Speaker 2: saying you, know change is hard when you want help
Speaker 2: and want to change it's impossible if you. Don't so
Speaker 2: we are kind of at our core sort of what we.
Speaker 2: Are AND i think there are certain things you can't
Speaker 2: get away from the violence in football OR. Ufc you
Speaker 2: can't get away from the lack of urgency in. Baseball
Speaker 2: AND i don't think you can avoid tanking because and
Speaker 2: the reason being is because in, basketball and this is
Speaker 2: not true with other. Sports in, basketball you could identify
Speaker 2: at thirteen years Old Kobe Lebron. Wemby The spurs went
Speaker 2: on a three year mission to Get. Wemby THEY i
Speaker 2: saw that that's that's not the way it works in.
Speaker 2: Football Lamar jackson we were arguing after he was, drafted
Speaker 2: can he play? Quarterback you, Know mahomes couldn't win in.
Speaker 2: College Josh allen is overrated and wild in basketball men and.
Speaker 2: Women freshman year in high, school it's defined that player
Speaker 2: is different That yukon girl that dominates sixth grade. Basketball it's, like,
Speaker 2: oh that's the best sixth grade basketball player we've ever.
Speaker 2: Seen so and my take is basketball the ability to
Speaker 2: spot transformational talent so. Early it's not a singular year.
Speaker 2: Tank people see. It they don't have to re sign.
Speaker 2: Players they can move off players that THE nba should
Speaker 2: just Be, like, listen if if there's a great player
Speaker 2: every year and a different team gets the great, player
Speaker 2: it's unavoidable and it's not terrible for the. League Like
Speaker 2: Cooper flag probably Saves. CHARLOTTE i mean, literally if he goes,
Speaker 2: there it's, like, okay, Now LaMelo Ball Cooper, flag that's a,
Speaker 2: Watch like that's a watch on. Television my take is
Speaker 2: THE nba spent so much time paralyzed by tanking and.
Speaker 2: Trades it's like football. Violence just just do the best you.
Speaker 2: Can you can't avoid.
Speaker 1: It what say? You?
Speaker 4: YEAH i LIKE i like that you you say it's
Speaker 4: an unavoidable piece of. It i'd say the same thing
Speaker 4: about the super teams and the willingness of players to
Speaker 4: try to partner up in a one team becoming so
Speaker 4: powerful that they present a talent mismatch to everyone in.
Speaker 4: League to your point About, boston like this is POST
Speaker 4: kd And. Steph it happened, again and you know how it.
Speaker 4: Happened the league at large Undervalued Drew holiday and Chrisops.
Speaker 4: Porzingis and that's not On Brad. Stevens that's Not brad stevens.
Speaker 4: Fault that's the other twenty nine GM's fault that they were,
Speaker 4: like Sure brad wants to pay For chris tops let. It, well,
Speaker 4: okay well now he's a. Problem that's like now they
Speaker 4: have five thirty million dollars. Players AND i also just
Speaker 4: generally think, That, LIKE i mean to your point that
Speaker 4: there's there's five six teams this year that have a
Speaker 4: really good chance to, win even With boston being the
Speaker 4: way that they, Are so, LIKE i don't THINK i
Speaker 4: think it makes for interesting storylines as far as the
Speaker 4: tanking piece. Goes it's even more unavoidable when you factor
Speaker 4: in just basic, stuff which is, like if it's games
Speaker 4: sixty five and we don't have a chance to make
Speaker 4: it to the, PLAYOFFS i shouldn't be playing my. VETS
Speaker 4: i should be playing my young.
Speaker 1: Players.
Speaker 4: Yeah so different than if you're, like, hey you know,
Speaker 4: WHAT i don't need to See Andy dalton start in week.
Speaker 4: Fifteen i'd rather see my third round picks get a
Speaker 4: chance to go out there and see what he can.
Speaker 4: Do let him get the, reps let him learn how to,
Speaker 4: press and so at a certain, point like even if
Speaker 4: you disincentivized it through the, draft you would never be
Speaker 4: able to stop a team from looking at the situation
Speaker 4: and going this season's, over we need to give our
Speaker 4: young guys the, keys and that's going to lead to
Speaker 4: a lesser basketball. PRODUCT i would say that generally, speaking
Speaker 4: the basketball guys will reward the teams and the franchises
Speaker 4: that play serious, basketball meaning like you'll See okac did
Speaker 4: this a couple years ago where it's, like, yeah they're
Speaker 4: playing their younger, players they're load Managing, shay but they're
Speaker 4: also teaching those kids to play damn good.
Speaker 1: Basket The chicago right now is playing their.
Speaker 4: Arsenal, yeah that is a that is a. Foundation What
Speaker 4: chicago is doing right now is a foundational part to
Speaker 4: any hope they have of being good in the. Future
Speaker 4: if you practice playing bad, basketball you'll be a bad basketball.
Speaker 4: Team and so the WAY i look at it is,
Speaker 4: like to your, point you'll never be able to stop
Speaker 4: tanking because it's it's impossible to stop teams from even
Speaker 4: prioritizing younger players. Minutes but, inevitably organizations behaving like losers
Speaker 4: tend to remain. Losers and organization like here go The kings,
Speaker 4: again they had that one, Season but it's like it
Speaker 4: turns out that even a really good year From Dearreon
Speaker 4: fox and uh and From Malik monk and From Demona.
Speaker 4: Sabonis is not enough to overcome, organization no. Incompetence it's,
Speaker 4: like at the end of the, day you can't stop
Speaker 4: bad from being, bad so stop trying to legislate it.
Speaker 4: Out if that makes.
Speaker 2: Sense, YEAH i MEAN i look at teams Like utah
Speaker 2: AND i know their record isn't, good BUT i love THEIR.
Speaker 2: GM i think they have an excellent young coach and
Speaker 2: they play, hard and they're just going to get better
Speaker 2: with all those draft. Picks they're probably three years Behind. Oka,
Speaker 2: see so if they Land Cooper, flag AND i think
Speaker 2: they have the best percentage now they're. Tied If utah
Speaker 2: Got Cooper, flag that's a playoff team potentially in the. Year,
Speaker 2: like that's a really good basketball team, obviously If wemby
Speaker 2: got him In San. Antonio but it's LIKE i look
Speaker 2: at it AND i think If washington Got cooper, FLAG
Speaker 2: i feel so bad For Cooper. Flag If utah Got Cooper,
Speaker 2: flag to your, Point i'd be like that kid hit
Speaker 2: a home. Run he's going to do really really. Well
Speaker 2: no immediate. Pressure Danny, ainge great young, coach nice little supporting.
Speaker 2: Players they just don't have a guy.
Speaker 1: To love him next To Walker kessler. Too, Yeah Walker
Speaker 1: kessler is really a nice.
Speaker 2: Player in, fact The lakers were interested in him about Trade.
Speaker 4: DeLine if they would have got, HIM i would have
Speaker 4: been talking very reckless on your.
Speaker 1: Show he's a good. Player the volume