WEBVTT - #187 Jason Flom with Anthony Apanovitch 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:05.120 It was the summer of nineteen eighty four. Tony I. 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:07.920 Panovitch was in the process of building his house painting 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:11.720 business on the west side of Cleveland. On August twenty third, 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:15.240 a woman named Mary Anne Flynn was beaten and strangled 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:20.400 to death. Authorities collected seamen from her body. Police soon 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:24.520 identified plenty of likely suspects, including a violent ex boyfriend, 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:26.759 an ex tenant who had been accused of rape, and 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:28.680 a few other men who had keys to her house, 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.639 as well as Tonya Panovitch, who had done some painting 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:35.400 for her earlier that summer, but Tony's whereabouts were entirely 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.199 accounted for. On the night of her murder, Tony was 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:42.199 perhaps too cooperative with police, refusing a lawyer, answering all 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:46.000 their questions, and even voluntarily giving up hair, blood, and 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:49.400 saliva samples. He happened to have the same blood type 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:52.120 as fluis found at the scene, but the state presented 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:55.520 that piece of evidence without mentioning that Miss Flynn had 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:59.240 that exact same blood type. The state hit evidence that 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:02.280 Detective life I do understand and in nineteen eighty four, 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.959 without DNA testing available to prove his innocence, Tony would 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:09.560 have to wait for that scientific advancement to free him 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:14.039 from his death sentence after thirty two years, but remarkably, 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:18.600 his time on death row didn't end there. This is 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:35.240 Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.680 with Jason Flamm, and soon you'll be hearing the subject 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:42.880 of this episode, a man named Anthony Ipanovich, calling in 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:47.320 from death row in Ohio, where he has been for 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:49.840 the better part of four decades for a crime he 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:52.880 didn't commit. With us on the show today is Dale Base, 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:57.240 a federal public defender who has been the lead lawyer 0:01:57.520 --> 0:02:02.120 and staunch advocate for miss thank A Podovich since nineteen 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:04.320 ninety one, probably before some of you were born, that's 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:06.760 how low he's been working on this case. So Dale, 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:08.519 welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:10.919 Thank you, Jason, it's good to be back. 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:16.160 Hello. This is a prepaid debit call from Tony, an 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:20.520 inmate at the Chillacoffee Correctional Institution. To accept this call, 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:27.000 Pres zero, thank you for using gtlllt. 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:28.520 Hey, Tony, I'm happy to have you here with us, 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:32.240 but obviously I'm really sorry that it's under these circumstances. 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:35.480 All right, Thanks Jason, I appreciate that. I appreciate this 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:37.680 opportunity to tell my story. 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:41.320 Now, Tony, I want to go back to before any 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:45.000 of this happened. You grew up in Ohio, right, Oh, yeah. 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:47.520 Yeah, I grew up on the east side of Cleveland. 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:50.960 You quit going to school in about the eighth grade. 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:53.400 I just started working when I was twelve years old. 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:56.440 I like construction work, though I like working outside. I 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:58.760 was a truck driver for about five years. Then I 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:01.520 was trying to get a paying business started because I 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:03.720 figured that, you know, the summer months, I could work 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:05.960 outside painting, and then in the winter months I would 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:06.960 be able to drive truck. 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:09.800 And so this brings us to the summer of nineteen 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:13.000 eighty four. Two neighbors have both hired you to do 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.720 some painting, Mary Ann Flynn and the guy that lived 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:19.160 across the street for her. You painted the outside bottom 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.440 half of Miss Flynn's house. Now she intended to paint 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.560 her window frames herself, and then you started working across 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:28.400 the street painting her neighbor's entire house. And that brings 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:32.040 us up to August twenty third, nineteen eighty four. You 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.840 noticed that she hadn't gotten to painting the windows yet 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:37.160 and tried to get a little more business for yourself. 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:39.119 So when I seen her, I walked over. I asked 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:40.840 her if she wasn't going to be able to get 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.240 to those frames that I said she wanted, I could 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.240 get it done, you know, because the weather's changing. She said, well, 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:48.120 she'd let me know. I think I told her it 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:50.200 was going to be like sixty bucks or something to 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:52.320 paint them. So that was the last time I had 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:54.920 seen her or talked to her. It was around four thirty. Well, 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:57.160 went back across the street, we finished up the job, 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.400 then then we headed to the bar. That's what I 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.320 did the rest of the night, you know, was barhopping 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:03.200 in the neighborhood. 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:07.000 So later that night, mary Ann Flynn was raped and 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:11.280 brutally murdered in her bedroom. She'd been strangled and severely beaten, 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:14.840 and semen was found and collected from both her mouth 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:16.320 and her vagina. 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:21.359 Yes, so mary Anne's body was transported to the County 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.799 Coroner's office in Cyahoga County, Okay. 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:28.080 And I got to stop for a second because Kyahaga 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:34.000 County was notorious as one of, if not the most corrupt, disorganized, 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:38.160 disfunctional crime labs in the entire country at that time. 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:42.400 The police, prosecutors, and the Corner's office have all been 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:46.800 the subject of news articles, scandals, podcasts for being sloppy 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:48.360 or outright corrupt. 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:51.920 And let me give you a couple of examples. Liliana 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:56.440 Segura with The Intercept did some great reporting that documented 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:00.600 a pattern of misconduct in the Cayahaga County prosecutor Office. 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:05.760 And in twenty eighteen, season three of the podcast serial 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:09.760 feature the Cleveland Police Department, the Prosecutor's office, and the 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:14.720 courts in Cayahaga County as being somewhat corrupt, and the 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:19.360 folks at the Cayahga County Coroner's Office admitted that they 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:23.240 ran a sloppy lab. So you have all that going 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:26.880 on during the time that Tony's case was making its 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:30.359 way through the court system in Cayahoga County. 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.840 And of course this crime lab's dubious work will become 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.360 relevant later. But first, Tony, let's get back to the 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:41.640 investigation of your alibi. You had gone bar hopping. The 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:43.760 bars you went to that night, you were a bit 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:46.720 of a regular at and your whereabouts were accounted for 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:49.840 by the people who saw you all through the night. 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:52.680 Oh yeah, either people I frink withed these bars, and 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:54.880 these people knew who I was. And as far as 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.839 them telling the cops that I was there at the bar, 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:01.080 that was no problem as far as my I mean, 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:03.400 I was where I said I was, and then when 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:05.920 I left one bar, went to the next one within 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.839 the time that it would have taken normally to get 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:12.800 from A to B. No hour delays in between or 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.640 nothing like that. There was no skipping. So wherever I 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:19.080 was that night, whatever bar I went to, whatever time 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:21.679 I got there and left, they know that was all covered. 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:24.280 So how did you get pulled into this? 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:28.120 Well, I'll tell you, Jason. Here's what the homicide detectives 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.920 told me. My name came up in the investigation as 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:35.720 they were canvassing the neighborhood, and I go downtown with 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:38.720 them and they start asking me questions and they tell me, well, 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:40.360 we're going to have to hold you. We want to 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:42.880 check your alibi. They kept me in there that night. 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:46.080 Next day they wondered if I would mind giving them 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:48.680 a blood sample. I'm like, yeah, no, I got no 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:51.000 problem with that. They take my blood, they want to 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:53.760 take some of my hair and my saliva. So I 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:55.880 give them all that, and they're asking me if you 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:58.280 want a lawyer. You know, before we asked that I 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:01.000 don't need no loader. Man. You know, I'm cooperating one 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:04.039 hundred percent because I didn't do it. Then they'd asked, 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:06.040 can we go to your house and look at your clothes? 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:09.960 I'm like, yeah, okay, cool. See I'm not too upset 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:12.440 about why they are doing this because I am an Xican. 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.160 I did four years or one month for armed robbery. 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:17.880 I had it coming. I did my time, you know. 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:19.920 And they told me that right off the jump. Being 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.160 an x con made him look at me a little 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.160 harder than you know, average Joe. I say, okay, cool. 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:27.200 So they went to my house to get most of 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:30.160 my clothes, and they keep me in jail another night. 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.080 Well the next day, by now, I'm pissed off. I'm 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:35.800 talking to Detective Zalor. I said, that's it. I'm ready 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:37.280 to go. He said, well, you know, we don't have 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:39.520 to charge you. We can hold you so many days. 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:41.760 You know, it was up that day. I said, this 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:45.000 is it, man, I'm going home. He said, well, let 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:47.080 me come back this afternoon. He said, I'm waiting on 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.800 the lab report. Anyhow, he come back about three three 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:52.520 thirty got me out of the south So I leave, 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:54.880 I go home. I'm not thinking too much of it. 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.080 I'm just wondering when I'm going to get my clothes back, 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.040 because when I get home, I see they got most 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:02.120 of them gone. Maybe five days later, I had a 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:04.480 ticket that I had gotten a couple of weeks earlier 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:06.440 that I had to go to court for. So I 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:09.600 called down to Detective Zalor. I say, listen, I'm gonna 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:11.240 be in court tomorrow. I want to come pick up 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.520 my clothes. He said, no problem. So when I go 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:16.640 down to go to court, he tells me he wants 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.360 me to come upstairs because he wanted the corner to 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:21.640 take a look at me. They take me in the room. 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:23.520 The corner comes in. They say, well, they want to 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:27.760 look at my tenis okay? So I let her look. 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:29.960 She looks at it and says, no, this isn't it 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:31.640 and leaves the room. 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.199 Wait wait, why, well I know what it is now. 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:38.760 There was this guy named Ronnie Shelton, I know, he's 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.360 called the West Side Rapist. He was going around raping 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:45.520 women all over that area on the west side of Cleveland. 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:49.360 At that time, and he had something wrong. I guess 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:52.120 he had some kind of scabs and stuff on his 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:54.880 dick that they wanted to see if I had on mine. 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:57.360 And well, of course it wasn't me, so all. 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:00.760 Right, So continue was there anything else round about this 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:01.839 contact with Zalor? 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.960 I had called to ask about my clothes before I 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.720 went down to the traffic ticket. Just before he hung up, 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:13.400 he said, well, you know, Tony, you could still get 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.840 indicted for this. So I said, if that happens, give 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:17.560 me a call. 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:21.079 And that conversation comes up later at trial when Detective 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:24.960 Sala gives it. Well, he gave a very misleading testimony. 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:29.040 But for now there's this indictment threat looming. But you're 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:32.720 not too worried because after all, your innocent weeks go 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:36.440 by and nothing happens until you were house sitting for 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:37.200 your in laws. 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:42.160 So this is like October. Second, I come out to shower, 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:45.520 my wife's in the shower. It's about noon. The phone rings, 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:48.200 Detective Salar, I need you to come down. I talk 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:50.240 to I said, yeah, well, you know, I don't tell 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:54.079 you everything. Man, I got no more to add. He's like, no, no, Tony, 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:56.439 I'm going to have to hold you for trial. Man, 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:58.320 I need you to come down. I said, all right, 0:09:58.360 --> 0:09:59.960 all right, I said, I'll be done on a wa 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:02.080 I said, I'm going to take my wife over to 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.200 my mother's. I'm gonna let them know what's going on, 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:05.760 you know. So I said, I don't want them to 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.000 see on the news that you rest me for this stuff, 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:10.520 you know. And he said, yeah, okay, no problem, just 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:12.760 come on down later on this afternoon. So I hang 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:15.560 up the phone. I'm thinking, you know, I never heard 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.920 no shit like this. This is bullshit. So I walk outside. 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:20.760 I figured the cops are out there. I just don't 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:23.320 want him busting through the door. I got my daughters 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:26.079 in their little bass of that there on the couch right. 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:28.360 My wife's in the shower. You know, if I really 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:30.440 am going to be on trial for some of the 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:32.559 crime like this, they got to be standing right out 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:38.040 there with chatgun. So I walk outside and there's nothing, nothing, nobody. 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:40.920 I stand there for a few minutes. Nothing. I go 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:43.080 back in the house, call a lawyer up and I 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:45.480 asked him to check out it. He called me back 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:49.680 and he said, wow, Tony, he said, you've been indicted. Man, 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:53.120 you're facing the electric chair. He asked me what I 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:54.640 was going to do. I said, well, you know, I'm 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:56.520 going on my mom's like I told him, And I'll 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.520 be down later on this afternoon, you know. I mean, 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:01.840 this was it noon or twelve thirty when he calls 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:05.040 me on the phone and arrests me for this terrible crime. 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:07.319 I mean, it's a terrible crime. There's no offenser. But 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:09.800 and he arrested me on the telephone. If you'll tell me, 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:12.280 I take my time coming down me. So you know, 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:15.160 my baby's only six weeks old. I kissed my daughter, 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.600 I kiss my wife. Tell my brother Vince, you know, 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.120 catch you guys later, you know. And I went down 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:23.960 to the jail, probably about four thirty. 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:26.760 I mean, I got to believe they knew that you 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:30.559 weren't really the rapist and murderer. Otherwise is the way 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:32.280 they behave this way, I'll tell. 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:35.760 You what he said. I get down there, we go 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.000 in this room and I said, look, man, why are 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:39.960 you doing this to me? He said, I'm not the 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:42.600 one doing it. The prosecutor is the one that got 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:46.640 the indictment against you. I said, but what I mean, man, 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:50.920 And he says, and this is for sure never forget this. 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:53.680 He said, well, Tony, he said, you know, this is 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.800 a high profile case and there's a lot of pressure 0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:59.760 on us to get somebody, you know, all your alibi. 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.079 This is their drunks, and you look worse than anybody else. 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:06.120 And I'm like, wow, man, that ain't right, you know. 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:08.400 He said, well, you know, he said, make sure you 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:10.640 demand a speedy trial. They got to do it within 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:12.960 ninety days. I said, yeah, yeah. He said, what are 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:15.360 you going to do about your business? I said, you're 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:17.080 trying to get it going. He says, you know, he said, 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:18.719 they're going to drag your name through the mud. And 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:20.439 he said, you're not going to be able to get 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:22.520 work in this town and cleeve and I said, well, 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:24.440 maybe I'll go out to the suburbs, you know, because 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:26.520 that's where my in law's living. I mean, this is 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:30.240 the guy who's locking me up out of charge of burglary, 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.800 rape and murder, the same one who arrests me on 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:40.520 the telephone. 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:47.080 This episode is brought to you by Stand Together. Stand 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:50.840 Together is a philanthropic community dedicated to helping people improve 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.840 their lives. For more than twenty years, Stand Together and 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.240 its partners have been on the front lines of criminal 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:59.960 justice reform. By empowering people to take action, supporting them, 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.600 and working with businesses, Stand Together tackles the root causes 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:07.480 of problems in our communities and empowers those closest to 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:11.960 the problems to drive solutions. Solutions like reducing unjust prison 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:15.880 sentences through the First Step Act, empowering community based programs 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:19.080 and help people re enter society, and now working to 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:22.520 bridge divides in our communities. To learn how you may 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:29.560 get involved, visit Standtogether dot org slash conviction. This episode 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:33.640 is underwritten by the AIG pro Bono Program. AIG is 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:36.880 a leading global insurance company, and for over a decade, 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:40.680 the AIG pro Bono Program has provided thousands of hours 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:44.679 of free legal services and other support to nonprofit organizations 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:48.840 and individuals most in need. More recently, the program added 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:52.280 criminal and social justice reform as a key pillar of 0:13:52.320 --> 0:14:03.160 its mission. The only evident him was purely circumstantial, definitely 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:05.480 wrong place, wrong time, he was painting the house. There 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:07.679 was no denying that he knew the victim, but that 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:09.840 doesn't make him guilty. A lot of people were in 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:12.600 contact with her that same day. That's not a basis 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.200 on which to convict somebody and sentence them to death, 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.920 especially when none of the rest of the evidence matched up. 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.800 And then the trial itself Dale, Now this is before 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.240 you got involved. It's so long ago. When did the 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:26.120 trial take place? 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:31.240 December of nineteen eighty four, And the investigation that the 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:36.080 two lawyers representing Tony did to prepare for trial wasn't 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:38.840 as robust as it should have been. They went out 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:42.400 and spoke to a few of Tony's witnesses, but they 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:46.840 did not hire experts to look at the forensics. They 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:51.280 did not interview the detectives. They had a very cursory 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:54.320 interview with the people at the coroner's office. 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:58.600 So without a thorough investigation, the prosecution was able to 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:02.640 pull a number of dirty tricks. And this tangled web 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:06.040 started really back when the autopsy was conducted. 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.480 Right, Yes, there was a piece of hair that was 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:13.800 found between her bound hands behind her back, and that 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:17.800 hair could only be placed there by the person who 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:22.080 assaulted Mary Anne Flynn. The hair was tested, it wasn't 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:25.400 Tony's hair, it wasn't mary Anne's hair, So the state 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:28.400 had to come up with an explanation for how the 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:31.400 hair got there. The evidence that the state presented a 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:35.280 trial was that the hair was lying on her open hand, 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:40.160 which supported the theory that the hair fell from someone's head, 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:44.160 a Morgue attendant one of the personnel at the crime scene. 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:48.160 So what the state argued to the jury was disregard 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:52.760 the hair. What we found out later is that the hair, 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:56.560 as I noted, was found between her bound hands behind 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:57.160 her back. 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:00.720 And this is just a beginning. I mean, they even 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:04.520 planted that scene in opening statements. But there's so much 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:06.560 more here to unpack, so go ahead, Dale. 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:11.320 At trial, the state put on evidence that it swabbed 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:16.440 the victim's vagina, and that swab contained fluid deposited by 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:20.119 someone who had blood Type A and was a secretor, 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:25.080 and someone who was a secretor secretes antigens into their 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:29.480 bodily fluids. And the state put on evidence that Tony 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.880 was a Type A secretor, so he was likely to 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:37.520 be the perpetrator. What the state withheld was that Miss 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:41.720 Flynn was also an A type secretor, so that meant 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:45.560 that the fluids in Miss Flynn's body were just as 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:49.280 likely her own. Now that is the only physical evidence 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:52.240 that the state put on at trial. All the rest 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:53.960 of the evidence was circumstantial. 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:57.080 So the detective gave misleading Well that's not even a 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:01.359 strong enough way of putting it, but they gave misleading testimony. 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:06.040 During the trial, right, the prosecutor asks Detective Zalor, did 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.000 Tony ever make a statement to you? 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.600 And he said, Tony said to me, when I'm indicted, 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:15.480 can you let me know? The defense asked for copies 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:18.920 of notes. Detective said he didn't have any notes at 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:23.520 the time. The defense was not entitled to the police reports. 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:27.359 The defense lawyer made an objection. The judge ordered the 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:32.119 prosecutor to review the police reports. Prosecutor did so and said, 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:36.560 there is no report of any oral statement that Tony 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:39.560 made to detective Zalor. Well, a couple of years later, 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:43.320 when we made a Public Records Act request, we found 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:48.000 that type statement by Detective Zalor where he wrote Tony 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:52.919 said if I'm indicted, that is critical? And why is 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:59.320 when important? Because during the closing arguments the prosecutor hammered 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:05.399 on those words and said, this proves he had a 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:06.280 guilty mind. 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:12.280 If I'm indicted. When I'm indicted, it's actually kind of 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:17.359 terrifying to think that the substitution of that one little 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:21.000 word could have made such a huge difference in the 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:25.000 outcome of this case. What was your sense of things 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:26.920 while the jury was deliberating. 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.160 I totally expected to be found that guilty. I mean, 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:34.240 I didn't do it, you know. I look, I did time. 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.320 I copped out. I had aggravator robbers. I copped out. 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:40.480 I went to PLU that I did my time. You 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:43.679 commit a crime, you make a deal. Man. This case, 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:46.840 there's no deal making here. I didn't do it. 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.560 But they took whatever they could muster and whatever they 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:54.960 could hide to tell their story, and the jury bought it. 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.960 Lock Stock and Barrel. What was that moment like when 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:00.159 they found you guilty? 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:04.760 When their judge said guilty, I slammed my hand. It 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.320 wasn't a conscious thing I did. It was just a reaction. 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:10.440 I slammed my hand on the table and I said, 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:14.280 that's bullshit. They pulled the jury and they were asking 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:16.480 the jury, you know is this year verdic Conditioner called 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:19.560 twelve of them. And as they're doing it, I kept saying, now, man, 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:21.159 it's bullshit at any right. 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:24.119 And Dale, this is a laundry list of crimes that 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:25.080 he was convicted of. 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:31.240 Tony was convicted of aggravated murder, aggravated burglary, two counts 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:36.119 of rape. What's interesting about the rape counts is that 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:40.560 they were carbon copy counts, meaning the state said count 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:45.000 one of rape vaginal and or oral rape, second count 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:49.960 of rape vaginal and or oral rape. So we don't 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:55.960 have a distinction between the vaginal rape and the oral rape. 0:19:56.280 --> 0:20:00.560 And this becomes critical later on in post conviction litigation. 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.520 Tony was sentenced to fifteen to twenty five years for 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.439 the burglary and rape counts for a summer of forty 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:08.879 five to seventy five years, and he received a death 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:12.000 sentence for the murder charge. Can you talk about I 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:16.320 mean death row, It's it conjures up really everyone's worst 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:17.720 nightmares back then. 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:21.119 They took me straight to Lucasville Pennitentiary where death row was, 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:22.840 and they put me right there in the cell on 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:25.760 death row. Death row is not like being in prison. 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:29.000 It's a whole different expanse and ten times worse than prison. 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:31.760 You know, I'm not going to the pro board and 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:34.360 going home next week because I stole a car. These 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:36.280 people are going to kill me if I don't get 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:54.560 back out. In nineteen eighty nine, the federal court on 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:59.400 a rape pace in Florida ruled death. DNA evidence is sound, 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:04.320 signific evidence and can be used to show a person 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:07.840 committed a crime or not. Immediately. Tom Shaw has seen 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:11.280 my trial lawyer file devotion requesting DNA testing. 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:14.439 Then nineteen eighty nine, an attorney for Tony requested files 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:18.000 from the Flynn autopsy. At that time, the vaginal at 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:21.320 oral slides could not be located. They were assumed to 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:25.639 have been destroyed. But nineteen ninety one is when you 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:28.679 got involved there, right, And this is when the three 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:30.880 slides were magically located. 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:35.640 In nineteen ninety one, Forensic Science Associates, at the request 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:40.960 of the Cayahaga County Coroner's Office, conducted DNA testing. I 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:44.800 found out about the three slides in nineteen ninety two 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:48.800 when I got a phone call from the county prosecutor saying, 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:52.920 we found these three slides. Now we would like some 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:56.160 of Tony's blood to compare it to the slides. These 0:21:56.160 --> 0:22:00.199 are the same people who withheld evidence. This is the 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:05.280 same county where the coroner's office was a sloppy lab. 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:09.680 This is the same police department where the detective lied 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:12.480