1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Hi, Steve Fishman here, creator of The Burden as well 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: as the number one true crime podcast My Friend The 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: Serial Killer. For those of you who liked The Burden, 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: I have good news. Season two starts August seventh. It's 5 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: a series called The Burden Empire on Blood and it's 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: the director's cut of the true crime classic Empire on Blood, 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: which reached number one on the charts when it debuted 8 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: half a dozen years ago. Then the fat cat funders 9 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: abandon it. I wrangled it back and now I'm thrilled 10 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: to share this story of a man who fought the 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: law for two decades, fought against the Bronx's top homicide 12 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 1: prosecutor and a detective sometimes known as the Louis Scarcela 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: of the Bronx. It's all coming to you August seventh, 14 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Hey listeners, I'm Steve Fishman 15 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: and I'm Dax's Devlin Ross. Welcome to another fantastic bonus episode. 16 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 2: Of the Burden. 17 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: Before we start, remember that subscribers get more exclusive and 18 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 1: add free bonus content. 19 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 2: It's easy to subscribe. Just go to the show page 20 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 2: and Apple Podcasts. Say you know Dax Er Steve for 21 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 2: the special exclusive price of two ninety. 22 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 1: Nine a month Dax. You can sell me anything. Today's 23 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: bonus is a little bit different than the ones we 24 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 1: usually do. Today we want to make a case. We 25 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: want to make a case for an investigation. And first 26 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: we're going to make our case to you and our listeners. 27 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 1: We hope by the end you'll agree something needs to 28 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: be done. By the way, if you have any thoughts 29 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: on this, or maybe you have some information, call us 30 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: one eight three three eight Burden. 31 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: So let's start with what we know. Luis Scarcela is 32 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 2: now regarded as a disgrace detective, the most notorious ex 33 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: detective in New York. Twenty one cases Louis helped investigate 34 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 2: have been overturned. 35 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: Today we're going to focus on the assistant District Attorneys, 36 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: the eightas in the Brooklyn District Attorney's office. These are 37 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: the lawyers who prosecuted those twenty one wrongful convictions. They 38 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 1: had the power, the authority, the law degrees, but when 39 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: it comes to wrongful convictions, they have often skated away free. 40 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: For one thing. By law, the DA has immunity. This 41 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: means someone who's been wrongfully convicted cannot sue the DA, 42 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: he can sue the cops and Louis cases have cost 43 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: the taxpayer over one hundred million dollars. But remember, every 44 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: wrongful conviction had an ADA presiding over it. The current 45 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: DA's conviction review it has overturned lots of Scarcella's cases, 46 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: and we need to give current DA Eric Gonzalez credit. 47 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: He has made writing wrongful convictions a cause. Still even today, 48 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 1: the reports overturning Scarcella cases often blame him by name. 49 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: His flawed work explained in detail. But the prosecutors, the 50 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: adas who supposedly vetted his investigations, endorsed his testimony, tried 51 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: the cases, put witnesses on the stand, told the jury 52 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: what to believe. They get anonymity for the most part, 53 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: like you know, it's a professional courtesy. 54 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 2: And yet one of Scarcella's eightya's had three convictions overturned 55 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 2: another four. Any consequences to their career, Steve. 56 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, they rose in the ranks, all right, but let's 57 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: not get ahead of ourselves. 58 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: To lead the research, we tapped to distinguish Brooklyn based 59 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: journalist named Ted ham. 60 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: So, Ted, can you introduce yourself? 61 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 3: Sure? My name is Theodore Ham. I prefer to go 62 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 3: by Ted and I I am the chair of journalism 63 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 3: at Saint Joseph's University in Clinton Hill, Brooklyn, and I've 64 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 3: written extensively about Scarcella cases for The Independent India with 65 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 3: a Y. 66 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 1: Ted's nickname is the Hammer, so it comes from Ham, 67 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: your Land's name exactly, but it's adopted because. 68 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 3: Everything looks like a nail. 69 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: So, Ted, how'd you first get interested in Scarseller? 70 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 3: I first wrote about him in twenty seventeen for The 71 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 3: Daily Beast, and then I've since followed his cases and 72 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 3: on a few occasions over the last several years, I've 73 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 3: been the only reporter in the courtroom covering some of 74 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 3: the cases. I'm the only one there. I know that 75 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 3: it's not a case they want to call attention to. 76 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: So fair to say that you are the Scarcella reporter 77 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: in Brooklyn. 78 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 3: I'm not going to dispute that. 79 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: You're the guy who's been at it longest, been at 80 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: it well the most. 81 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 3: Over the last six or seven years. Yeah, I would 82 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 3: say so. 83 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: And by the way, Scarcella called me, he said, who's 84 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: this guy, Ted Ham who's stalking me? I would say 85 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: that from Scarcella's point of view, no love lost he 86 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: sees ted Ham the Hammer as an antagonist. 87 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: Which makes today's episode interesting because I'd say that the 88 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 2: Hammer's investigation supports some of Scarcella's basic contentions. Remember, Scarcella 89 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 2: loves to point out that he didn't act alone. His 90 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 2: cases had to sign off of the DA's office. 91 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 3: So Steve approached me in January and raise this question, 92 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 3: which is you would think at some point the ada's 93 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 3: who handle these cases, somebody would say, okay, well, we're 94 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 3: reviewing Scarcelli's cases, but maybe the fact that they handled 95 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 3: Scarcella's cases would lead them to examine these eightas cases. 96 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: Right, you did the math, you did the research. You 97 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: came up with twenty one convictions of Scarcella related cases 98 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: that have been overturned, huge number. We know that that's 99 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: resulted in more than one hundred million dollars being dolled 100 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: out of tax payer money and settlements. 101 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 3: And over four hundred years of wrongful incarceration. 102 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: So how do you go about finding out if an 103 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: Ada has had other convictions deemed wrongful? 104 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 3: Well, the people who are familiar with the cases obviously 105 00:06:55,080 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 3: are the defendant who typically has done extensive amount of 106 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 3: research while they were in prison. On their case. And 107 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 3: then there's their appellate lawyers, who often know other cases 108 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 3: from their research and knowing other lawyers working on these 109 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 3: cases and so on, and then there's always the newspapers. 110 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 3: The prosecutors' names do turn up occasionally, but the DA's 111 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 3: office never wants to disclose the name of the prosecutor, 112 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 3: so they issue long reports. Even when they explain that 113 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 3: the prosecutors has committed misconduct, they end up saying that 114 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 3: misconduct was nothing compared to what Scarcela did. And you know, 115 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 3: they're happy to blame the cop. They're happy to name 116 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 3: the cops scarcel and others, but almost always they do 117 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 3: not name the prosecutor. 118 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: Protecting their own or what. 119 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 3: The view is that they don't want to hurt morale, 120 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 3: they don't want to scare off other prosecutors from coming 121 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 3: to the office. They're going to be thrown under the 122 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 3: bus or whatever you want to call it. 123 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 2: So just to be clear, you wrongfully convicted guys, send 124 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 2: them to jail for decades, and then the DA's office 125 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 2: is worried about your morale. 126 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: Ted as I look at your research, here's one thing 127 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: that jumps out at me. Twenty one scar Seller cases 128 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: have been overturned. Of the ada's who helped prosecute those cases, 129 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: nine of them have had another fourteen convictions overturned that 130 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: were not scar Seller cases. And that's just what you 131 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: know by getting on the phone with people, right ted. 132 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: It's not exhaustive. 133 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 3: Now, you would need to have the personnel files, I 134 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 3: guess of the DA's office, and they're never going to 135 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 3: turn those over. 136 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: So when you go through these twenty one cases, what's 137 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 1: jumping out at you in terms of the involvement of 138 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: the assistant district attorneys. 139 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 3: Scarcella himself, not to defend him, but just to explain 140 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 3: what his position is is that he could not make 141 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 3: any arrest and neither could any Brooklyn detective without approval 142 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 3: of the die's office. 143 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 2: Here's Louis in his own words. 144 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 4: I brought every case the Brooklyn District Attorney's office, Esa Gomez, 145 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 4: all the witnesses, they were vetted, and they all went 146 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 4: along with my arrest They all went along with my arrests, 147 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 4: and they convicted them. 148 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: So fair to say, I guess that when Scarceli says 149 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: that it was the job of the district attorney to 150 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: vet and evaluate the cases, that's accurate. 151 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 3: Right, But that doesn't excuse any misconduct on his part 152 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 3: for just rounding someone up and bringing them in and 153 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 3: figuring out how they can charge that person. 154 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I don't see how a prosecutor could say, 155 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: oh my god, I was hoodwinked by this detective. 156 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 3: I agree. That seems to be what their position is, that, oh, 157 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 3: he fooled us. Well, that's shame on you, right, because 158 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 3: how many times can they say that when they went 159 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 3: forward with a bad case. Dozens upon dozens of times, 160 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 3: not just Scarcela. 161 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: Let's get to this token boothcase. This is a colossal 162 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: headline grabbing, awful murder. There's a guy who's a token 163 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: booth clerk. 164 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 3: Harry Kaufman. 165 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: Harry Kaufman. Somebody goes up to that little slot in 166 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: the front of the token booth, sprays in a flammable liquid. 167 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 1: What is it lighter fluid? 168 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 3: I think something to that effect. 169 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: Es and then lights a match and creates an explosion 170 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: inside the booth. This guy, Harry Kaufman, who's the token 171 00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: booth clerk, hangs on. He's got burns all over his body. 172 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: He hangs on for two weeks and finally dies in 173 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: the burnyard. This is a case of such incredible sadism 174 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: that it just grabs the attention, grabs the headlines. There 175 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: is an absolute drum beat to find the person guilty, 176 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: person or persons. 177 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 3: Bob Dole, who was the front runner for the nineteen 178 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 3: ninety six Republican nomination, used this as an example of 179 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 3: urban insanity, crime out of control. 180 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: And so Louis Scarcella steps into this case, as he 181 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: does with a number of high profile cases, and there's 182 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: all kinds of pressure. 183 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 3: Scarcella and a handful of other detectives involved, because there 184 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 3: were many. They got confessions from all three of the suspects. 185 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 2: Louis told us how he got one of the confessions, 186 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 2: and it's pure Louis as bad. 187 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: Louie's wife had a terrible kitchen accident and had burns 188 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: up and down her body. She too, had been in 189 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: the burn unit. 190 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 5: I started talking to him about mister Kaufman was in 191 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 5: the burn unit. Told him my wife was in the 192 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 5: burn unit, told them how she suffered, told him how 193 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 5: mister Kaufman suffered. 194 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: I hit a core. I hit a core. 195 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:32,439 Speaker 5: Said I'll tell you if I can visit my girlfriend. 196 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 5: We had conjugal visits and anybody tell you knows a liar. Okay, 197 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 5: we even had them in the Brooklyn d A's office. 198 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 5: I was able to get the confession. 199 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 3: And they indicted and prosecuted and sent three guys away 200 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 3: for seventy five years. And they turned out that they 201 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 3: were all wrong. Right, none of the evidence that they 202 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 3: were using against the three of them held up. One 203 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 3: witness was consorting with her partner in a car crime 204 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 3: happened after midnight, and so they were having sex in 205 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 3: the car, and then she claims that she saw two 206 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 3: of the three right. 207 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: But initially this witness had said it was someone else, 208 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: and then she changed her story, so her credibility wasn't questioned. 209 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 3: And then I went. One defendant called nine one one 210 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 3: to report the token booth blaze, and then after the 211 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 3: investigations proceeding, they bring him to the precinct and by 212 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 3: the time he leaves the precinct, he's confessed to the crime. 213 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 3: What motive would you have to call nine one one 214 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 3: to report a blaze that he had, in fact had started. 215 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 3: That's just ridiculous. 216 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 1: You're saying that the assistant district attorneys in this case 217 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: mishandled it. 218 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 3: Right, Scarsella did not prosecute these three guys, right. 219 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: That's right. Three eighty's prosecuted it. 220 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 3: It was their obligation to wage Scarcella's and the other detectives' 221 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 3: confessions versus other evidence that they had in the case 222 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 3: and to say, well, this may or may not add up. 223 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 2: So what did the report by the conviction of you say? 224 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 3: And the reports by the cru that came out almost 225 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 3: three decades later, they raised serious questions about the trial 226 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 3: summation before the jury, saying that they were saying things 227 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 3: that were stretching the evidence. And so there is some 228 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 3: acknowledgment in those reports that there was wrongdoing by the prosecutors. 229 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: The reports point out the bad conduct, but almost always 230 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: failed to use the names of the prosecutors. When you 231 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:54,359 Speaker 1: say that prosecutors went beyond the evidence in their summations, 232 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: are we basically saying that they lied to the jury. 233 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 3: They were distorting the abne right, So I mean, whether 234 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 3: you want to call that lies or not. 235 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 6: And what happened to those three eighty as one judge 236 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 6: another moved to a white shoe law firm in Manhattan, 237 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 6: and then the third, who presided over at least one 238 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 6: other wrongful conviction. One other that we could. 239 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,479 Speaker 1: Find is a current member of the Brooklyn District Attorney's 240 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: executive team. I wanted to get to two of the 241 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: cases that we focused on in the series. I know 242 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: you've done some research on Anne Gutman. Anne Gutman was 243 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: the prosecutor in the Derek Hamilton case that was eventually overturned. 244 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 2: We dig into this case in episode nine of The Burden. 245 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 2: Remember that's where we took the trip to the North 246 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 2: Carolina Woods, chatted with the witness who had first told 247 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 2: us she was someone else before revealing herself to us. 248 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: This case against Derek, whatever you believe about his innocence 249 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: or guilt, the evidence was not there to convict. And 250 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: we really show that the ballistics evidence and the forensic 251 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: evidence contradicts the report of the main witness. What does 252 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: Anne Gutman do to overcome that small problem. She essentially 253 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: lies to the jury. She says, it's not black, it's white. 254 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: The forensics supports, the ballistics supports our version of the story, 255 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: when in fact it just the opposite. So what happens 256 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: is the conviction Review Unit looks at that closely. They 257 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: excoriated her. 258 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 2: We got someone to review the report for us. It 259 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 2: says she quote fell far short of the prosecutor's obligation 260 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 2: to do justice in quote and that she quote significificantly 261 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 2: misled the jury end quote. 262 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: Just like in the Token Booth case. Right, So, just 263 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 1: to keep a tally, so far, we have two different 264 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: cases in which prosecutors misled the jury. By the way, 265 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: in the report available to the public, the criticism of 266 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: Anne Gutman was left out. Apparently the district attorney didn't 267 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: want to throw one of their own under the bus. 268 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: But we know that the full report takes her to task, 269 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: not scarsell It. It takes the assistant district attorney to 270 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: task for not only mishandling the case, but really for, 271 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: in a larger sense, failing to do justice. And what's 272 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: interesting to me, Ted is that now that you've looked 273 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: at Anne Gutman, you've been able to find that this 274 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: is not an isolated incident. 275 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 3: Correct. So, Anne Gutman in nineteen ninety two ninety three 276 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 3: handled the case of Everton Wagstaff and Reginald Connor, who 277 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 3: were accused of a kidnapping and murder of a sixteen 278 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 3: year old girl, but the judge tossed the murder charge 279 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 3: because there was a lack of evidence, but they went 280 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:24,479 Speaker 3: forward with the kidnapping charge. Gutman's case, she was basing 281 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 3: it on the word of a heroin addicted sex worker 282 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 3: named Runilda Capella. 283 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: Remember that Teresa Gomez was Scarcella's go to witness. She 284 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 2: was addicted to Kracken, a sometimes sex worker who helped 285 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 2: the DA in six Scarcela cases where she claimed to 286 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 2: be an eyewitness to a murder. 287 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: That seemed like a preposterous number, right, Runilda Capella was 288 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 1: said to have witnessed many more crimes than that. 289 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 3: Basically, what happened, at least during the trial was that 290 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 3: Capella was kept in a lock hospital ward for heroin withdrawal. 291 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: It was later reported that she'd gotten cold feet about testifying, 292 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: so the DA arrested her and held her. 293 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 3: For three days prior to the trial to make sure 294 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 3: she'd be there to testify in court. As they get 295 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 3: to twelve to twenty three years, but then there's a 296 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 3: hearing in twenty ten I think it was, in which 297 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 3: it's revealed that cops had used Capella as a witness 298 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 3: fifteen to twenty times. But Gutman did not disclose that right, 299 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 3: So Gutman did not tell the defense for those two 300 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 3: defendants that this person has this track record. 301 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 2: And under the rules, a prosecutor cannot hide evidence that 302 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 2: favors the defendant that's considered rigging the game. 303 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 3: Totally preposterous case against these two guys based on this 304 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 3: really faulty witness. But then it went to the Appellate Division, 305 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 3: and the Appellate Division dismiss the indictment. They just said, 306 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 3: this case is a bad case from the jump, and 307 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,199 Speaker 3: we're tossing the conviction and also tossing the indictment. So 308 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 3: it was a forceful statement by the Appellate Division about 309 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 3: Gutman's case. Right that happens in twenty fifteen, the same 310 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 3: year that Derek Hamilton's case is reversed by the CIREU. 311 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: Right, the Appellate Court specifically challenged the credibility of Capella, 312 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: the key I witness. 313 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 3: So Gutman's handiwork is exposed in two different cases involving 314 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 3: three different convictions in twenty fifteen, and what happens. Gutman 315 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 3: remains the head of the DA's Early Case Assessment BURO 316 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 3: through twenty nineteen or so. 317 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: This Brunehilda saturname Brunilda Brunilda. So you're saying she's used. 318 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 3: A dozen times, fifteen to twenty times. 319 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: And the DA obviously knew that she was a repeat 320 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: witness and a terrible drug addict. 321 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 3: Correct. It makes you wonder if there were others out 322 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 3: there who could put them to shame. 323 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: So would you say pattern in practice of using known 324 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,959 Speaker 1: unreliable witnesses to convict people. 325 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 3: It certainly looks like one, a pattern for sure. 326 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: And has anybody ever picked out that pattern and said, 327 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: we need to look at all fifteen or twenty of 328 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: Brunilda cases. 329 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 3: Not that I know them. 330 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: Remember that the district attorneys CRU looked at all of 331 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: Teresa Gomez's cases and moved to overturn four of the 332 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: six of them based on Gomez's lack of credibility. So 333 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 1: they looked at Scarcella's witness, but as far as we know, 334 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 1: they did not look at the much more prolific witness, Brunilda, 335 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: the one favored by the Adas. And I want to 336 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: tell you about one more example of using an unreliable witness, 337 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 1: another one we stumbled onto. This one involves an Ada 338 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: named Ken Tab who was head of the DA's Homicide 339 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: Bureau for some years he was a prosecutor connected to 340 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: one of the overturned Scarcella convictions. That was the token 341 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: Booth case. And just fyi, he's been quoted by a 342 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: defense attorney as saying, you can't let the truth get 343 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: in the way of justice. Consider that for a moment, anyway, 344 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: What did he do that relates to unreliable witnesses? 345 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,719 Speaker 2: I love this one. How brought into the case of snitch, 346 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 2: A professional snitch who was so used to helping the 347 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 2: DA that he kept Jobb's phone number in a bible 348 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 2: he carried with him. A guy who seemed to overhear 349 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 2: a lot of incriminating conversations that proved really useful to 350 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 2: the DA and, as one might imagine, to him as 351 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 2: well in exchange for testifying he was seeking help with 352 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 2: his sentences. Shabaz was so unreliable so often that eventually 353 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 2: a judge banned him from contacting any law enforcement unless 354 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 2: it was about his own crimes. 355 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: Can it really be a coincidence that, even just anecdotally, 356 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: almost by chance, we've come across three witnesses who were 357 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: used by the DA over and over and over again. 358 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: Three witnesses who were found to be unreliable and who 359 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: claimed to have knowledge of something like forty felonies. 360 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 2: One would ask, what the hell was going on. 361 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 1: Any chance we're noting a pattern here one witness cases 362 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: using an extremely unreliable witness. 363 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 3: I found out from someone who worked in the cru 364 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 3: investigator actually involved in some of these early cases that 365 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 3: got overturned, and she said they never looked at it 366 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 3: in that light, right, even though she had some she 367 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 3: had saw some of the prosecutors with multiple reversals, She said, 368 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 3: they never saw a pattern. So you know, if they 369 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 3: were looking for a pattern, they might have found they 370 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 3: may have found it. If they're not looking for a pattern, 371 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 3: you can say there is no pattern. 372 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: I can tell you what the pattern is, using the 373 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: unreliable witnesses again and again and again. My question to 374 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: you is why the hell is the DA not done it? 375 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: Why do that in Scarcella cases but not where essentially 376 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: the power exists. 377 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 3: Because that shows their culpability the das. 378 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 1: So you're saying the DA's and protecting its own. 379 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 3: They were say, are we really going to initiate the 380 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 3: process ourselves? Are we going to acknowledge that we've done 381 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 3: X number of wrongful convictions. But I don't think they're 382 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 3: going to pursue that right. I mean they should, they could, 383 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 3: and they should, but I don't think they will. 384 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: Interesting, I think you brought a couple other examples. 385 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 3: In twenty seventeen, there were a couple of different exoneration cases, 386 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 3: and one of those involved the case of Jabbar Washington. 387 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 2: This was a Scarcella case. 388 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 3: The prosecutor in that case was Kyle Reeves. In twenty 389 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 3: twenty one, a Brooklyn judge reversed a Brooklyn case that 390 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 3: Reeves had handled, and that in doing so, God criticized 391 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 3: Reeves for his quote blatantly intentional misstatements to the jury. 392 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 3: So clearly stated that Reeves is distorting the evidence, which 393 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 3: he apparently had we had done back in the Jabbar 394 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 3: Washington case. 395 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: So we've now heard three cases of ada's lying or 396 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: at best exaggerating the facts to the jury. And remember 397 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: this is without any comprehensive database. 398 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 2: It's misleading the jury. Another pattern worth investigating. 399 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: Let's read the statement from the current DA's communications person. 400 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: This is something he gave to Ted. Quote. Public shaming 401 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: and blaming individuals as opposed to systemic issues are not 402 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: part of the objective when the office reviews past cases. 403 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 2: I find it interesting that they decide to characterize it 404 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 2: as shaming and blaming rather than what it otherwise could 405 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 2: be considered, is accountability ted. 406 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: So you've looked at the Brooklyn DA very closely, what's 407 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: your judgment about their approach to doing justice? The word 408 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: corrupt gets thrown around by any means it's necessary. But 409 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: are they good guys? I want you to be the hammer? 410 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 3: Okay, all right, So if you're a liberal, typically you 411 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 3: would see good people in bad situations trying to do 412 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 3: their best. But I don't view it from that lens. 413 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 3: I'm more of a leftist, and so I see a 414 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 3: bad system that produces bad actions. I don't judge them 415 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 3: necessarily as bad people, but they did bad things. I 416 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 3: would like to think that I uncovered some uncomfortable truths 417 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 3: about what these prosecutors have done. Certainly the name should 418 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 3: be attached to these wrongful convictions. I'm not saying I'm 419 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 3: damning them for eternity, but this is a fact that 420 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 3: they did take away decades of people's lives. So I 421 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 3: think if they can't face any real consequences, their work 422 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 3: needs to be acknowledged because many of these prosecutors went 423 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 3: on to successful careers and in some cases they kept 424 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 3: prosecuting people wrongfully. 425 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: Fair to say that your investigation has shown that there 426 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: is no accountability. 427 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think there's We you can't point to 428 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 3: anything that any consequence that any prosecutor has experienced that 429 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 3: amounts to accountability. 430 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: Right, So, no matter how many wrongful convictions you can 431 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: show that somebody is that a prosecutor is responsible for, 432 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: there's been no consequence to their career in any way. 433 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 3: Not do we know of publicly those kinds of things 434 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 3: could have happened, and they just don't want to call 435 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 3: attention to it. So we don't know if they move 436 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 3: people around or move them, move them out of the office, 437 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 3: and and so on, you know, So we do. The 438 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,719 Speaker 3: personnel matters are in turn all things generally, and so 439 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 3: we don't We don't always. 440 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: Know, Okay, but in the Scarcella cases that we've been 441 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: able to that you've been able to look at, no 442 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: consequences to any assistant district attorney. 443 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 3: Not that I can trace. 444 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: And some have gone on to what kind of offices. 445 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 3: Well, we have at least a few judges in uh, 446 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 3: Nassau County in Manhattan Criminal Court and NASA DA Kathleen 447 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 3: Rice went onto the House of Representatives for four terms 448 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 3: from a long island and many have gone on to 449 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 3: successful lucrative careers in private practice, uh and on down 450 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 3: the line. 451 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: So not to say that crime pays, but it would 452 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: seem that cutting corners in prosecution. 453 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 3: Pays in terms of the gaining the convictions. Yes, you 454 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 3: know that's what there, That's what their assignment was, and 455 00:29:58,280 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 3: they got the convictions. 456 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: And propelling their own careers. Correct. 457 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 2: Don't you think it's time to look inside investigate patterns 458 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 2: of relying on bad when it is lying to jurys. 459 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 2: Isn't it time to investigate what that meant to people's lives? 460 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: We asked the Brooklyn District Attorney for a comment, and 461 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: they gave us a statement. They said that the standard 462 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: for re examining a law enforcement agent's past cases is 463 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: a quote credible indication of intentional misconduct. The statement continues 464 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: expanding this rational standard to every instance where a judge 465 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: or cru finds faults in a prosecutor's work is absurd. So, 466 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: and this is me talking about the DA's office. The 467 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: distinction being made by the District Attorney is that that 468 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: office believes that Scarcella's misconduct was intentional, but apparently does 469 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: not believe that it's colleagues, the ADAS did anything wrong intentionally. 470 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: We'll be following up on this, but let me just 471 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: say now, lying to a jury does not seem to 472 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: me like an accidental oversight. It seems to me like 473 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: there must be some intention involved in that. The DA 474 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: statement continued. The current Conviction Review Unit is the largest, 475 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: best resourced, and most active in the United States. It 476 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: goes on Brooklyn. Cru will continue to accept petitions from 477 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: anyone who claims that they were unjustly convicted. It will 478 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: continue to conduct its reviews with the highest standards of professionalism, transparency, 479 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: and accountability, and it will continue to set an example 480 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: for jurisdictions across the country. 481 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 2: If anyone has a thought on this, leave a message 482 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 2: for us at one eight three three eight Burden. 483 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: One note reached out to all the prosecutors named in 484 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: this episode. None took us up on our invitation to comment. 485 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: For more on Ted's findings, read his excellent article which 486 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: came out of this research. It's called the Scarcellophiles. When 487 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: unethical prosecutors get off Scott Free. It's in the Independent. 488 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Drew Nellis. Our associate producer 489 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 2: and production coordinator is Austin Smith. Sound design was provided 490 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 2: by Bianca Salitis. 491 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: Fact checking by Ryan Alderman, Dax Devlin Ross and me 492 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: Steve Fishman. We are your hosts. The Burden is a 493 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: production of Orbit Media. Thanks for listening, and now that 494 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: you've made it through the credits, don't forget to sign up. 495 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: To be a subscriber is easy. Go to the show 496 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: page on Apple Podcasts, pay your two ninety nine per 497 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: month and you're there. Thank you very much. Season two 498 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: of The Burden Empire on Blood will be available everywhere 499 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts on August seventh. All episodes will 500 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: be available early and ad free, along with exclusive bonus 501 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: content on Orbit's newly launched True Crime Clubhouse, our subscription 502 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: channel on Apple Podcasts. It's only two ninety nine a month.