1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy Vie Wilson. Listen. Who 4 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 1: doesn't love pie? I mean, I like a lot of 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: different pie. Well that's the beauty of it, right, there's 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: a lot of different kinds. I'm not dogging anybody that 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: doesn't like pie, but like you can get it's savory 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: or sweet, or biscuit topped or with a buttercrust. It 9 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: is one of those foods that has so much variety 10 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: that there is kind of something for everyone. That also 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: means though, that it's a massive topic. So before we 12 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: even go in as a level set, this is not 13 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: an exhaustive history of pie. We're just looking at some 14 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: pie stuff in history, is how I like to think 15 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: about it, because otherwise it would get really really it 16 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: would become an entire series about pie, which sounds fun, 17 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: but I think not that many people would actually want 18 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: to hear um. So we are going to cover today 19 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: the Bay Sick history of pie as we know it, 20 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: and then we'll delve into the way that pie became 21 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: a huge part of Western cooking, so much so that 22 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,839 Speaker 1: it is deeply linked in many ways to national identity. 23 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: We're going to talk about a couple of the most 24 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: popular pies, how they have changed over time. And we're 25 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: also going to do one of my favorite things, which 26 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: is talked about a bunch of recipes from historical cookbooks 27 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: and kind of see how pies were perceived and presented 28 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: and taught as a thing to make at various points. 29 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: So you would like to grab a slice, get ready, 30 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: because we're going to jump right in. One of the 31 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: trickiest things about discussing the history of pie is nomenclature. 32 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:45,279 Speaker 1: A lot of things have been called pie or pie 33 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: spelled p y e, and that takes place over centuries 34 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: of recorded history. A lot of it most people today 35 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: wouldn't even really recognize as pie. So as a food item, 36 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: there's no one species, a thick moment of origin that 37 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: will likely ever pinpoint. Yeah, there are a lot of 38 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: a lot of uh, surveys of pie history that you'll 39 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: read will comment that like, for a long time, if 40 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: it wasn't bread, it was pie like with which we 41 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: know it's not really indicative of the wide range of 42 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: baked goods you can make. In the book, pie. A 43 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: global history author Janet Clarkson suggests that the progression to 44 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: putting filling inside of a dough shell might have gone 45 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: like this. Someone first tried baking bread in a kiln 46 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: after noticing that dough and clay had some similarities in 47 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: their pre baked state. We've talked on the show before 48 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: about bread being baked like flat in a fire, and 49 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: that they transitioned over to this kiln approach. And they 50 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: also then started wrapping meat inside of leaves when they 51 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 1: cooked over an open flame to help retain the juices. 52 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: And then there was likely this moment where the experiment 53 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: was made to wrap the meat inside the dough to 54 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 1: retain juices, and a law that would have been primitive pie. 55 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: This seems like a pretty logical chain of events, So 56 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: in terms of like theorizing that this may have happened 57 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: this way makes all the sense on earth, but we 58 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: can't conclusively substantiate those moments of inspiration that led to 59 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: each of those steps. Yeah, it reminds me of when 60 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: we talked about the origins of cheese and how there's 61 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 1: a lot of maybe it could have worked that they 62 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: may have accidentally fermented cheese or on purpose, we don't know. 63 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: The first evidence we have of something that seems like 64 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: a pie comes from ancient Egypt. They started mixing up 65 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: honey based fillings to bake inside of a bread like 66 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: grain based cake the States as far back as six 67 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: thousand BC. There's also evidence of savory pie in Egypt 68 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: as far back as two thousand b C. There's a 69 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: recipe for a chicken pie was found on a tablet 70 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: that's been dated back to that time. By the time 71 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: of Ramps these the Seconds who ruled from thirteen oh 72 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: four to twelve thirty seven b c e, the combination 73 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: of honey with nuts and fruits baked into a bread 74 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: dough was popular. We know this because it was depicted 75 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 1: on the tomb walls of Ramsey's the Second and a 76 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: lot of the pies that we're talking about here are 77 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: kind of what we would call gallets, so they're relatively 78 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: free form. The crust is sort of wrapped up around 79 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 1: the sides uh to keep the food contents inside, but 80 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: it doesn't really look like a perfectly formed rounded pie. 81 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: In ancient Greece, there's mention of a pastry used as 82 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: a shell for other foods in the work of Aristophanes. 83 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: Aristophanes lived from four or forty six to three eighty 84 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: six BC, so we know by that time there were 85 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 1: pies of some sort there. There's also mentioned of the 86 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: job of pastry specialists. That was a vocation that was 87 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: different from Baker's, although the word pastry wouldn't be coined 88 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: until much later. This involved specializing in a mix of 89 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: flour and water to create a paste and then that 90 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: would be wrapped around the meat for cooking. So we 91 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: covered the oldest known cookbook, Diric Coquina on the show before, 92 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: and we mentioned that it had a number of savory 93 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: pies in it. And this Roman book, which is usually 94 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: dated to the first century, is full of recipes, and 95 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: because it's miscellaneous section is pretty heavy on pie instructions, 96 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: it's fairly clear that savory pies at least had become 97 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: standard at this point. We know that as the Romans 98 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: had conquered the Greek Peninsula, Greek and Roman culture blended 99 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,799 Speaker 1: in a variety of ways, and it appears that pies 100 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: were part of that intermingling and adoption. And in Rome, 101 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: though the pies composition evolved, it considerably in terms of 102 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 1: the fillings, the crust, was still pretty basic up to 103 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: this point. The idea of a pie crust really had 104 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: more to do with it being a vessel than it 105 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: being edible. The idea was that it was a simple 106 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: way to contain the real goods, which was the filling, 107 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: not so much about the crust itself being eaten. The 108 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: pastry around the food was a cooking vessel, a carrying case, 109 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: and a way to keep the filling from going bad 110 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: too quickly. The proportion of ingredients was aimed at creating 111 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: a sturdy shell for all of these needs, not about 112 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: making that shell delicious. No, if you've ever had a 113 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: really hard and miserable bread, you know that it's not delicious, 114 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: And that's kind of kind of where we're at here. 115 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: But as a lot of things from the Roman Empire, 116 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: the idea of pie quickly spread throughout Europe and beyond. 117 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: So because of the ease of travel of a completely 118 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: self contained food, pie meat its way not only over 119 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: land but also on two ships. By the medieval period, 120 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: what we might recognize as a meat pie was being 121 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: made called bake meat. These were normally pies that had 122 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 1: an animal protein as the primary filling, and green and 123 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: so things like poultry, venison, pork, beef, lamb that was 124 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: pre cooked and either sliced up into small pieces or 125 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: ground or mashed into more of a paste. With the 126 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: other ingredients that was things like egg, honey, dates, and pepper. 127 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: And it's in the late thirteenth and early fourteenth century 128 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: that the word pie starts to appear in written language, 129 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: specifically referring to a savory filling enclosed in a dough 130 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: or pastry. There is a distinction, by the way between 131 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: those two words. To be considered a pastry, there has 132 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: to be fat in the dough. And how the word 133 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: pie spelled as we mentioned earlier, early on with a 134 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: y as in p y e, came to be used 135 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: for this type of dishes not entirely certain. This is 136 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: another thing that has a pretty common theory but we 137 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: don't know, and that theory is that it borrows its 138 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: name from the bird, the magpie. So just as that 139 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: type of bird gathers various things to make a nest, 140 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: a cook or baker would gather what they had into 141 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: a crust to make a pie. Well before the thirteenth century, 142 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: the Arab world had developed pastry, so it seems likely 143 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: that as the Muslim Empire expanded in the six hundreds. 144 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: The idea of a more delicate and delicious type of 145 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: dough was encountered by other cultures that might have informed 146 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: the evolution of the pie crust. Meat pies have long 147 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: been part of Middle Eastern cooking, usually similar to the 148 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: galets that we mentioned earlier. You have never had a 149 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: Lebanese meat pie. You have not lived. Um, I'm thinking 150 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,599 Speaker 1: about them now and just drooling. So these still, the 151 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: pies that we're talking about at this point in history 152 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: would not have been the kind of pies you think 153 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 1: of today. The crust was way more voluminous, still not 154 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: the buttery, flaky delight that we enjoy in modern times. 155 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: And this base crust also had the name of coffin. 156 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: This sounds perhaps surprising or disturbing, but becomes less so 157 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: when you consider that pie eyes were also not round 158 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: at this point. They were usually shaped like long, almost 159 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: squared off shapes, and the word coffin referred to a 160 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: box or basket long before it had any funereal associations. Basically, 161 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: people were making baking dishes out of dough and that 162 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: had to be able to sit in an oven for hours, 163 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: sometimes While it's possible that somebody may have nibbled at that, 164 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: it wasn't something that most people of any means would 165 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: actually eat. On occasion, the coffin crust would be used 166 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,719 Speaker 1: as a vessel for making a second dish that took 167 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: advantage of the flavoring from the first baking. And there 168 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: are some indications and historical cooking instructions that the crust 169 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: would on occasion be broken up into small pieces and 170 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: added to things like stew as a thickener. It's like 171 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: they took advantage of its flower content like a third time. 172 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: Like you could bake your pie in it, then you 173 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: could bake another thing in it, like a super something 174 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: soft like that, and then you could break it all 175 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,439 Speaker 1: down and grind it out in and make your stews 176 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: a little bit thicker in that way. Uh. During the 177 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,359 Speaker 1: medieval period in Europe, pie became a means of expressing 178 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: wealth and creativity, and these pies would sometimes have a 179 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: live element. If you have heard the nursery rhymes sing 180 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: a song of sixpence, you probably recalled pretty quickly the 181 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: line about four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie, 182 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: and those birds start to sing when the pie is 183 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: cut open. I remember being real freaked out by that 184 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: as a kid and wondering what the inside of the 185 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: pie looked like and how the birds had survived baking 186 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: because I was not bright enough to have done the 187 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: math on it. UH. Pies with an animated element did 188 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: become quite popular for a while, and of course that 189 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: living element was added after the crust was baked. Often 190 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: it was baked with a wooden shaper or scaffolding inside 191 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: so that the dough would retain its shape. Then the 192 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: animals and sometimes even people. Some of these pies were 193 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: enormous and allegedly contained entire orchestras. UH. Those items would 194 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: be placed inside before where the pie was revealed to 195 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: the dinner guests and then became part of their entertainment. 196 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: An Italian cookbook from titled Epulario describes how quote to 197 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: make pie that the birds maybe alive in them and 198 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: fly out when it is cut up. That wording delights me. 199 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: This recipe describes making a large pastry crust with a 200 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: hole in the bottom about the size of a fist. 201 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: To bake it, you fill it up with flour and 202 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: then pour the flour out. Once the crust is done, cooking. 203 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: To complete the process, you fill the pie from the 204 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: bottom with birds through that hole that you had made. 205 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: The recipe continues quote, and this is to be at 206 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: such time as you send the pie to the table 207 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: and set before the guests, where uncovering or cutting up 208 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: the lid of the great pie, all the birds will 209 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,199 Speaker 1: fly out, which is delight and pleasure show to the company. 210 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,119 Speaker 1: I still have questions about the hygiene of the whole situation, 211 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: but that's yeah. I wouldn't eat I mean, nobody would 212 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: be eating it. But my concern is even like having 213 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 1: a bird hopping around on your dinner table, not always 214 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: hi or any animal. I'm not anti bert. But aside 215 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: from making pies into living theater, cooks during the medieval 216 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: time would also work to create some incredibly lavish and 217 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: sometimes enormous pies. Very ambitious chefs would even create architectural 218 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: wonders with pie, building the exterior crusts into things like 219 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,719 Speaker 1: castles or other decorative items. In a moment, we will 220 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 1: talk about fruit pies and the first known cherry pie, 221 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: but first we will pause for a sponsor break. As 222 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: we mentioned before the break, fruit pies also started to 223 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: appear in medieval Europe. In some cases these would have 224 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: been open faced without a top crust. That's what we 225 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: would call it tart today. Apple pie is referenced in 226 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: the writing of Chaucer. He actually provided the first known 227 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: apple pie recipe in one and that reads us follows, quote, 228 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: take good apples and good spices, and figs and raisins 229 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: and pairs, and when they are well brayed colored with saffron, 230 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: well and do it in a coffin, and do it 231 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: forth to bake. Well. I love it. I don't know 232 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: why I'm so charmed by that. In England's pie became 233 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: a thing during the reign of Queen Elizabeth the First, 234 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: and it said that the first cherry pie was made 235 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: for the Queen herself. We don't actually have a record 236 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,199 Speaker 1: of what she thought of it, but the fruit pies 237 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: became more popular during Elizabeth the First rain they weren't 238 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,839 Speaker 1: anywhere near as sweet as modern fruit pies. Sugar was 239 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: a luxury for the very wealthiest people, and most fruit pies, 240 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: even for people high on thes of the social ladder, 241 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: dependent on the natural sugar of the fruit to make 242 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: them sweet. Often dried fruits were used, and that would 243 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: have concentrated the flavor and back to savory pies at 244 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: the time. If you have ever read or seen the 245 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: play Titus Andronicus by William Shakespeare, you may recall that 246 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: pie becomes part of a grizzly revenge plot. The title 247 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: character has two brothers who had attacked his daughter Lavinia, 248 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: baked into a pie, which he then serves to their mother. 249 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: In the mid fift hundred's, the book A proper New 250 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: Book of Cookery was published and included all kinds of dishes. 251 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: You could get recipes for making preserves, stewing broth, preparing meats, 252 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: and of course, baking pies from it. The idea of 253 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: a tart a small pie was already established, and there 254 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: is a recipe for making crusts for them. It reads 255 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: as follows quote to make short paste for tart, take 256 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: fine flour and a cursey of fair water, and a 257 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: dish of sweet butter, and a little saffron, and the 258 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: yolks of two eggs, and make it thin and as 259 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: tender as you may. So. By this point we can 260 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: see that the crust was being made to be less 261 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: of a sturdy baking vessel and more a part of 262 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: the food itself. This treatment of the crust made thin 263 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: and tender sounds pretty good, not too far from a 264 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: pie crust recipe you would probably find today, although of 265 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: course there are no measurements in there. As an aside, 266 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: egg yolks may or may not show up in a 267 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: modern recipe. They make the dough a bit more pliable 268 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: and easier to work with than the dough made without 269 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: the egg. This is just making me remember all kinds 270 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: of episodes of the Great British Baking Show and various 271 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: times that they've made various older styles of pies with 272 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: various types of crust recipes. When European colonists moved to 273 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: North America, they of course brought their cooking tradition as well, 274 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: and that included pie. The methods of cooking evolved, of 275 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: course to work with the available foods of the continent, 276 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: but there was also a significant influence on pie and 277 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: all cooking and baking in the colonies from the rise 278 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: of sugar plantations in the Caribbean and then in the 279 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: southern parts of North America. There had been European run 280 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: sugar plantations in South America as early as the sixteenth century, 281 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: but as more Europeans moved across the Atlantic. Plantations on 282 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: Caribbean islands grew rapidly in number and in size, and 283 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: the Transatlantic slave trade enabled those plantations to produce lots 284 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: and lots of sugar, making what had been a luxury 285 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: item something that was pretty accessible to most people, and 286 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: that meant that fruit pies got a lot sweeter. By 287 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: the time the US gained its independence, the taste for 288 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: sugar was completely ingrained in the culture of its white 289 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: European descendant population. In seventeen nineties six, the first cookbook 290 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: in the United States came out. It was titled American Cookery, 291 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: Or the Art of Dressing Beyond Fish, Poultry, and Vegetables 292 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: and the Best Modes of making pastes, puffs, pies, tarts, puddings, custards, 293 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: and preserves, and all kinds of cakes from the imperial 294 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,880 Speaker 1: plum to plain cake adapted to this country and all 295 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: grades of life. This offers insight into where the newly 296 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: founded country was in terms of pies, because you get 297 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: really a bit of everything, sweet savory pies with hard crusts, 298 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 1: pies with biscuit toppings, and pies with more familiar types 299 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: of crusts. The recipe for what the author, Amelia Simmons 300 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: calls a sea pie makes it apparent that this is 301 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: not a pie made with seafood, but one that is 302 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: meant to be carried onto a ship for a voyage, 303 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: and there are a lot of such see pies in 304 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,479 Speaker 1: old cookbooks. This one includes a lot of food and 305 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: a lot of crust because it starts with four pounds 306 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: of flour. It reads quote four pounds of flour, one 307 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,719 Speaker 1: and half pound of butter, rolled into paste, wet with 308 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: cold water. Line the pot therewith lay in split pigeons, 309 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: turkey pies, veal, mutton, or birds, with slices of pork, salt, pepper, 310 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 1: and dust on flour, doing thus till the pot is full, 311 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: or your ingredients expended. Add three pints of water, cover 312 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 1: tight with paste, and stew moderately two and a half hours. 313 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: That sounds so huge. It does sound enormous. Simmons offers 314 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: up two versions of apple pie, and her book. We'll 315 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: see in a moment that some cookbooks started giving what 316 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: they called English and American versions of pies. But in 317 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: this case the differentiator is that one gets some extra 318 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: ingredients and a very savory one let's added after it 319 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: cooks for a little while. Both of these have sugar 320 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: as an ingredient, so it's apparent that this was a 321 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: commonplace ingredient while baking at this point. Here is the 322 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: basic recipe for apple pie as given by Simmons. Stew 323 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: and strain the apples to every three points, grate the 324 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: peel of a fresh lemon, Add cinnamon, mace, rose, water, 325 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: and sugar to your taste, and bake in paste number three. 326 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: Every species of fruit such as peas, plums, raspberries, blackberries, 327 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 1: may be only sweetened without spices, and bake in paste 328 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 1: number three. That paste number three that's mentioned is dough. Oddly, 329 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: the way the cookbook is organized, the dough recipes come 330 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: after the pie recipes. But here's how paste number three 331 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,479 Speaker 1: is made. Quote to any quantity of flour, rub in 332 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,959 Speaker 1: three fourths of its weight in butter twelve eggs, so 333 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: a peck, rub in one third or half, and roll 334 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: in the rest. But the other apple pie that Amelia 335 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: Simmons included has an extra ingredient, and that is more butter, 336 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: and it goes into the pie after it's cooked for 337 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: a while. This recipe is simply titled a buttered apple pie. 338 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: And these are the instructions. Pair quarter and core tart apples, 339 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: lay in paste number three, cover with the same bake 340 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: half an hour. When drawn gently, raise the top crust, 341 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: Add sugar, butter, cinnamon, mace, wine or rosewater. There's also 342 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: a note in American Cookery within the section on pies 343 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: that reads quote observations all meat pies require a hotter 344 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: and brisker oven than fruit pies, and good cookeries, all 345 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 1: raisins should be stoned. As people differ in their tastes, 346 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: they may alter to their wishes, and as it is 347 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: difficult to ascertain with precision these small articles of spicery, 348 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: everyone may relish as they like and suit their taste. 349 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 1: I do love that, because I am that person that's 350 00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: like experiment in the kitchen, and I that old cookbooks 351 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: were saying the same thing. In the first half of 352 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds, Chef Alexei Benois Souier left France for 353 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: England and rose to prominence There is one of the 354 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 1: most popular chefs of his time. He is pretty fascinating 355 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: and will very likely be a future episode. Soyer wrote 356 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: a number of books, but in eighteen forty nine he 357 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: penned The Modern Housewife or Menager, comprising nearly one thousand 358 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: receipts for the economic and judicious preparation of every meal 359 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: of the day, with those of the nursery and sick room, 360 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: and minute directions for family management in all its branches. 361 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: And this book was intended as a guide primarily for 362 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: women running households to create dishes as delicious as those 363 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: that would be served in fine restaurants, and to do 364 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: so on a budget. And one of the ways that 365 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 1: the chefs suggests economizing is by using leftovers to make 366 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: hash or to be included in pies. He also has 367 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 1: a lot of recipes for pies, and he was not 368 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: the least bit shy about shifting away from the crust 369 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: as baking dish approach. Moving over to pie, Tens writing quote, 370 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,919 Speaker 1: having found a great difficulty in raising the crust for 371 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: a pie with my hands, I purchased for a trifle 372 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: a tin pie mold, by the use of which the 373 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: process is more simple, and the pie retains its shape 374 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: whilst baking and secures the gravy much better. He gives 375 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: a recipe in his book for hot lam pie which 376 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: outlines his method for making pie crust. Quote put a 377 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 1: quarter of a pound of butter and the same of 378 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: chopped suet into a stew pan with half a pint 379 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,199 Speaker 1: of water, and let the whole boiled together one minute. 380 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: Then strain it through a sieve into a basin containing 381 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: two pounds of flour, mixing it first with a spoon 382 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: and when cool enough, with the hand until forming a 383 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: smooth paste. He then directs the home cook to layer 384 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: small cuts of meat with potatoes, onions, parsley, and seasoning 385 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: into the crust, which is inside a dish, covering with 386 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: the remaining crusted paste, and baking for two or more hours. 387 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 1: The soy pie is drained of fat before serving, and 388 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: then gravy is at him. He has many many savory 389 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: pies in his book, including those for mutton, chicken, grouse, partridge, 390 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,640 Speaker 1: and eel. We mentioned a moment ago that fruit pies 391 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: had already become popular in England well before the North 392 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,439 Speaker 1: American colonies were founded, and apple pie has become something 393 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: of a national identity dish for the United States, even 394 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: though it's really just a much sweeter version of the 395 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: ones that were made in England during colonization, and as 396 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: we mentioned, earlier Chaucer had an apple pie recipe. Apple 397 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: pie also had to be seated around North America. Uh 398 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: so it really might have been a lot more fitting 399 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: to have made pumpkin pie the emblem of baking in 400 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: the United States. In eighteen fifty two, Sarah J. Hale 401 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: published The Ladies New Book of Cookery, and within it 402 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: she two different versions of pumpkin pie, one made the 403 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: American way and one made the English way. She did 404 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: the same thing for apple pie, but the two of 405 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: those are very very similar. The main difference is the 406 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: inclusion of clove and nutmeg in the English version, but 407 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: pumpkin pie was a different story with two very different preparations. 408 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: The English way is pretty simple. Quote take out the 409 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: seeds and grate the pumpkin to you come to the outside. Skin, 410 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: sweeten the pulp, add a little ground allspice, lemon peel, 411 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: and lemon juice. In short, flavor it to the taste. 412 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: Bake without an upper crust. So if you live in 413 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: the United States, and if you have ever made a 414 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: pumpkin pie from scratch, or if you've eaten a pumpkin pie, 415 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: this may sound a little bit odd to you because 416 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: it would not produce that smooth, textured, relatively homogeneous, and 417 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 1: custard like filling that any of us would normally see 418 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: on a pie on a holiday like Thanksgiving. Yeah, it 419 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: reminds me more of a dish that my grandmother made 420 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: called sweet potato pudding that used graded sweet potato delicious, 421 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: extremely good. Yes, the American pumpkin pie recipe that Hail 422 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: included is a lot more involved. It begins quotes, take 423 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,199 Speaker 1: out the seed and pair the pumpkin or squash. But 424 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: in taking out the seeds, do not scrape the inside 425 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: of the pumpkin. The part nearest the seed is the sweetest. 426 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: Then stew the pumpkin and strain it through a sieve 427 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: of colander to a quart of milk. For a family pie, 428 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: three eggs are sufficient. Stir in the stewed pumpkin with 429 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: your milk and beaten up eggs till it is as 430 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: thick as you can stir around rapidly and easily. There's 431 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: also a little aside in this recipe about how you 432 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: can make your pumpkin pie richer by adding sweet cream 433 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 1: or more eggs, and then quote sweetened with molasses or sugar, 434 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: add two tea spoons of salt, two tablespoons of sifted cinnamon, 435 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: and one of powdered ginger, but all spice may be used, 436 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: or any other spice that may be preferred. The peel 437 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: of a lemon grated in gives it a pleasant flavor. 438 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: The more eggs, says an American authority, the better the pie. 439 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: Bake about an hour in deep plates or shallow dishes 440 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 1: without an upper crust, in a hot oven. This is 441 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: a good illustration of how recipes can change and adapt. 442 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: Most food historians agree that the pumpkin pie first came 443 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: about when colonists were just trying to make do with 444 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: what they had in North America, and pumpkins are native 445 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: to North America. This is why the English recipe, which 446 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: probably made its way back across the Atlantic and was 447 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 1: adopted there, is closer to the way you would make 448 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: an apple pie. Incidentally, Hale writes of making pie crust, 449 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: though she uses the term paste, and she makes it 450 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: clear that its success or failure is entirely dependent on 451 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: the skill of the person preparing it. She writes, quote, 452 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: the art of making paste requires a good memory, practice, 453 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: and dexterity, for it is principally from the method of 454 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 1: mixing the various ingredients of which it is composed, that 455 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: paste acquires good or bad qualities. We're going to talk 456 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 1: more about pumpkin pie in a moment after we hear 457 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 1: from the sponsors who keep stuffy miss in history class going. 458 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: In eighteen fifty four, just two years after The Ladies 459 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: New Book of Cookery was published, English Canadian author Catherine 460 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: Parr Strickland Trail published a book titled The Female Emigrants 461 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: Guide and Hints on Canadian Housekeeping, and Trail too had 462 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: a recipe for pumpkin pie. She gives a lot more 463 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 1: detail and instruction regarding how to prepare the dish, specifically 464 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: the cooking of the pumpkin. It goes quote, select a 465 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: good sweet pumpkin, fully ripe, to ascertain if it be 466 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: a sweet one, For there is a great difference in 467 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: this respect. Cut a piece of the rhine and taste it, 468 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: or cut several and then you can judge which is best. 469 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: The sweetest pumpkins require less sugar and are much richer. 470 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: Then it continues pare and cut the fruit into slices, 471 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 1: removing the seeds and also the fibrous spongey part next 472 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: to the seeds, cut it into small pieces, and put 473 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: it on the fire with about a pint of water 474 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: covering the pot close. You are not to bruise or 475 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: stir it. Should the water boil away so as to 476 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: endanger the pumpkin burning to the bottom of the pot. 477 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: A small quantity more of water maybe added. It will 478 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: take three or four hours to boil, quite soft and 479 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 1: of a fine brownish yellow. Some improve the color and 480 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: richness by setting the pot on a few embers near 481 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: the fire and keeping the pot turned as the pulp 482 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: browns at the sides, but this requires to be carefully 483 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: attended to. The pumpkin pie lovers among our listeners will 484 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: probably agree with the following sentiment from Trail, although your 485 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: mileage may vary on the second part of this quote. Quote. 486 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: A finer dish than a good pumpkin pie can hardly 487 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: be eaten, and it is within the power of any 488 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: poor man's family to enjoy this luxury. If you do 489 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: not grow this fruit, any neighbor will give you one 490 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: for the asking. I just want to go to a 491 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: neighbor now, I'd be like, do you have a pumpkin? 492 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: I watched them go. What is wrong with you? However, 493 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: though pie, both apple, and pumpkin have been much belowed 494 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: for decades here in the United States, there has also 495 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: been a push and pull regarding its close ties to 496 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: the nation's identity, and at the turn of the twentieth century, 497 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: pies popularity had dropped off, but there was a very 498 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: vocal group of supporters who really wanted pie to be 499 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: elevated and recognized as an important part of US history. 500 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: Others did not, so To illustrate this argument that was 501 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: going on, the following two examples are articles that both 502 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: appeared in The New York Times in the same year 503 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: nineteen o two, just a few months apart, and the 504 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: first one is very pro pie. So on May third, two, 505 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: the New York Times printed a short column extolling the 506 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: virtues of pie. It's a little rara nationalism. It's obviously 507 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: written from a white Eurocentric point of view, but it 508 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: also offers a look at how the idea of pie 509 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: had become deeply entwined with the national identity of the 510 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: United States. It read, in part quote, pie is the 511 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: food of the heroic. No pie eating people can ever 512 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,959 Speaker 1: be permanently vanquished. It is a significant historical fact that 513 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: England's glory was greatest in the days when her gallant 514 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: Son's eight pie. Then slowly the pernicious influence of the 515 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: shopkeeping element grew, and gradually the dimensions of the pie 516 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: were reduced, until now it has dwindled to the insignificant tart. 517 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: As the pie declined, the high ideals were lowered in 518 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: the prestige and power of Great Britain were dissipated. True, 519 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: there are doctors who preach against the pie habit, but 520 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: no one has ever known a doctor to refuse a 521 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: second piece of pie, just a brilliant pilo there. Then, 522 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,479 Speaker 1: on August ten, in a magazine section of the New 523 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: York Times, they ran a piece titled The Great American Pie, 524 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: and it's author, Kate Masterson, had some very strong feelings 525 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: about pie. They were not positive. Masterson wrote, quote, pie 526 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: is really an American evil, one from which is a 527 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: nation we are now happily emerging. Pie, placed where it 528 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: belongs in the list of desserts, is lacking in all 529 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: the elements that should go to make it desirable. The 530 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: criticisms that follow include the opinion that the pie is 531 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: lacking in delicacy and sophistication. It is not as elegant 532 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: as plain fruit, and that it is quote too ornate 533 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: and pretentious. But Kate was just getting started, because then 534 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: she writes that pie is one of the quote un 535 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: moral foods, which she defines as quote those possessing admittedly 536 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: injurious qualities. Not only are the various health problems of 537 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: pie mentioned, notably dyspepsia, but there's also the hint that 538 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: pie eating will cause pe addiction. This is followed by 539 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: a rather firm assertion that quote the hardened pie eater 540 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: becomes art blind. Nothing makes him glow or warms him 541 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: to any enthusiasm but his chosen food. No great man 542 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: was ever fond of pie. I did not know how 543 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 1: vehement the pie fight had been in the U turn 544 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century. This all sort of tickled me um. 545 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: But as more women started entering the workforce, the popularity 546 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: of pie did continue to drop off because fewer people 547 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: just had time to bake, and particularly to do anything 548 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: that involved a lot of steps. But post World War Two, 549 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: as convenience foods became popular, things like pre made pie 550 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: crusts and easy recipes that were made with things like 551 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: pudding mixed kind of reinvigorated interest in baking pies, but 552 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: as this interest continued into the second half of the 553 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: twentieth century in the US, the popularity of those more 554 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: traditional and more involved recipes once again rose. While the 555 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: pie as we know it today is really a largely 556 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: Western food, As missionaries and other travelers have moved throughout 557 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: the world and introduced the concept of other places, other 558 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: cultures have developed their own unique and delicious pies. A 559 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: coconut pie called buco pie is popular in the Philippines, 560 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: and Australia has a delicious savory pie tradition going back 561 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: to its roots in England. In Samoa, a sweet pie 562 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: made with coconut and pineapple that resembles an impanata is 563 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: called a pie fala and is very popular. And Jamaica 564 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: has a handheld meat pie called a beef Patty that 565 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: uses turmeric in the crust. So pie has become the 566 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: ultimate kitchen improv item because you can put whatever you 567 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: want inside of a crust um just because I think 568 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: folks may right to ask about it. As you were 569 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: working on this, did you find anything about that article 570 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: that went viral a couple of years ago about how 571 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: pumpkin pie was like greatly an abolitionist dish um, Yes, 572 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: And I didn't include it because there's a lot of 573 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: argument and not a lot of actual stuff to back 574 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: it up. We can talk about it more on Friday. 575 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: I was just one of those things where I was like, 576 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: I bet if we don't say this, we're going to 577 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: get a flood of email from people being like, how 578 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: did you not mention this article? Yeah, I mean it's um, 579 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: that's a big theoretical. People are free to discuss and debate, 580 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: but like I said, there's not a lot to like 581 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: really back it up. It was kind of going on 582 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: as we were like, let's make everything as sweet as 583 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: sweet possible. Yeah. It was one of those things that 584 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: a lot of aspects of it felt really circumstantial to me, 585 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: but uh then you know, who knows. Anyway, I just 586 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: thought i'd check do you have listener mail? I do, 587 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: And this listener mail made me chuckle and offers up 588 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: uh an opportunity to talk about a thing that I'm 589 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: in love with. It's from our listener, Emily, who writes 590 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: high Holly and Tracy, I hope you're both doing well. 591 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: Thanks as always for the hours of learning and entertainment 592 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: you both work so hard to provide. There is a 593 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: show on HBO Max called Our Flag Means Death that 594 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: you may have heard about heard about. I'm devoted to it. 595 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: It stars Psycho at Rees, Darby, Leslie Jones, and a 596 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 1: ton of other hilarious people. It's about the life of 597 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: Steed Bonnet, the Gentleman Pirate. I only knew about Bonnet 598 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 1: from your show, and when I thought about asking you 599 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: to rerun it as a Saturday Classic, I checked my 600 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,800 Speaker 1: feet and saw you did. In side note, it feels 601 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 1: like you started classics a year or two ago, and 602 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: seeing that it was nearly four years ago was jarring 603 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,399 Speaker 1: to me too. Uh, since it has been so long, 604 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: I thought I might suggest it again, giving his little 605 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,320 Speaker 1: blip in pop culture. Now. Our Flag Means Death is 606 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: funny and profane, not for young listeners, but I highly 607 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: recommend it if you need to laugh anyway, Thanks again 608 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: for all of your work, Emily. Are you watching this show, Tracy, 609 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 1: I'm like four or five episodes into it got him 610 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: in love with it. Yeah, it's funny because I've had 611 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: a couple of friends go but it's not historically accurate, right, 612 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 1: And I'm like oh no. But part of what makes 613 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: it so rich is that it explores there's that element 614 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: of the Steed Bonnet and black Beard story where Blackbeard 615 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 1: took command of his ship of Steve Bonnets ship, and 616 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 1: that there question marks around how that was arrived at 617 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: and it didn't seem like it was ever. You know, 618 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 1: some people are like, no, he surely must have vanquished 619 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: him and taken him hostage, but there's no real evidence 620 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: of that, and there does appear that that Steve Bonnet 621 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: may have been willing to just be like, no, you 622 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: can have it, which opens up this very very rich 623 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,879 Speaker 1: space to explore. And that's why I just think it's 624 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: a fun, really smart way to examine what what that 625 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,320 Speaker 1: relationship could have been. Obviously not historically accurate to the 626 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: best of our knowledge, but wow is it fun. Yeah. 627 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: Leslie Jones for days. I love her on that show 628 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,879 Speaker 1: so much. Um and I It's one of those things 629 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: too that I think sometimes people think if you uh 630 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: study history or talk about history for a living like 631 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: we do, like we would not be down with fictionalized history. 632 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: Could not be further from the Yeah, Honestly, I would 633 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: rather see something really creative that just plays around with 634 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 1: things than like totally factual, like you feel like you're 635 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: gonna hear a beep and it will get right. Yeah. 636 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,879 Speaker 1: I also feel like he doesn't get mentioned nearly enough. 637 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: But the person who created that show is actually David Jenkins. 638 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 1: Sometimes tycho A t T gets credit for having created it, 639 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 1: and I understand he's a very creative and fascinating person. 640 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 1: I love pretty much everything he's ever touched, but m 641 00:37:54,880 --> 00:38:01,919 Speaker 1: David Jenkins gets all of the and that cast is spectacular. Um. Yes, 642 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: if you haven't watched it and you're down with some 643 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 1: profanity and some very very silly things, it's a very 644 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: fun one. Highly recommend it. Uh. If you would like 645 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 1: to write to us, you can do so at History 646 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: Podcast at iHeart radio dot com. You can also find 647 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: us on social media pretty much everywhere as Missed in History, 648 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: and you can subscribe to the show on the iHeart 649 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: radio app or wherever it is you listen to your 650 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 1: favorite podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a 651 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from i 652 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 1: heeart Radio, visit the i heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, 653 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.